"is this supposed to be a TiVo replacement?"

January 12, 2007 6:46 AM

So, you want something like the AppleTv but find the lack of features disturbing? Geexbox is a Linux HTPC distribution. Plays Divx, DVDs and comes with support for the Ati Remote Wonder. You could even add a tv card to the party.
In case you don't have an old pc or mac to use how about an old Xbox?
posted by darkripper (50 comments total)

Instead of XBMP,
why not XBMC?
posted by LittlePrince at 6:54 AM on January 12, 2007

Because I'm a stupid mefite and I posted the wrong link :)
posted by darkripper at 6:58 AM on January 12, 2007

XBMC is pretty cool. I use it sometimes to play stuff on my tv when I don't feel like using my Mac and seeing things on my computer screen (which is about the same size as my tv anyway).

The problem with using the XBox as a media center is that it's pretty noisy so you don't want it turned on all the time.
posted by sveskemus at 7:02 AM on January 12, 2007

Mini ITX boards boards and cases are your friends. You will pay a bit more for miniaturization, though.
posted by delmoi at 7:12 AM on January 12, 2007

Modding an Xbox is a violation of the DMCA.
posted by delmoi at 7:15 AM on January 12, 2007

Geexbox looks cool, but the interface . . . yuck! Is there any way to skin it to replace those dopey fonts and backgrounds?
posted by The Bellman at 7:28 AM on January 12, 2007

So, you want something like the AppleTv but find the lack of features disturbing?

Begging the question. It "lacks" features that 95% of the market do not need, because they would not use them.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:45 AM on January 12, 2007

It doesn't "lack" features. It lacks them, that's what happens when a product doesn't have a feature.
posted by I Foody at 7:52 AM on January 12, 2007

"Modding an Xbox is a violation of the DMCA."

Yep, you are right.

I am expecting DMCA (or, as I am in Europe, EUCD) officers to arrive at my house late at night, arrest me and take my precious XBMC setup, which is one of the best solutions I tried.

I do try to respect I.P. laws, but I do need to draw my own line on what to do with the hardware/software/media I buy. On my own moral understanding, installing XBMC on a mooded XBox iSNOTABADTHING(tm).

(This is not a rant to you delmoi, just a rant to the way this world is going to because of DMCA, RIAA et al)
posted by LittlePrince at 7:55 AM on January 12, 2007

This thing has all the features I need. The only feature I need is the ability to sit in my living room and easily watch videos from my PC/Mac, which is not in the living room. It needs to be as easy to use as a TiVo and I should be able to set it up without needing to Google for help.

The question is, how easy is it to get all my non-iTunes video into iTunes? Ripped DVDs, downloaded video, YouTube, etc. I need some sort of one-click way to put it all in the right format to view on the ATV.
posted by bondcliff at 7:59 AM on January 12, 2007

Geexbox looks cool, but the interface . . . yuck! Is there any way to skin it to replace those dopey fonts and backgrounds?

Apparently you can.
posted by chrisroberts at 7:59 AM on January 12, 2007

This thing has all the features I need. The only feature I need is the ability to sit in my living room and easily watch videos from my PC/Mac...I need some sort of one-click way to put it all in the right format to view on the ATV.

Well, if it can't play all those filetypes, then obviously it doesn't have all the features you need.
posted by delmoi at 8:03 AM on January 12, 2007

Begging the question. It "lacks" features that 95% of the market do not need, because they would not use them.

95% of people wouldn't want to stick on an external USB hard drive to add more storage space? 95% of people wouldn't buy a video right from iTunes on the device? 95% of people wouldn't want to watch YouTube videos right on the device?

I doubt it. I know apple fanbois think everything apple does is flawless and perfict, but come on. This new crap is crippled, possibilities actively removed. Apple is the new Sony.
posted by delmoi at 8:10 AM on January 12, 2007

Well, if it can't play all those filetypes, then obviously it doesn't have all the features you need.

The ATV doesn't need to do that, which is where the computer comes in. The ATV can't download torrents or rip DVDs either. But certainly there will be an easy way on the computer to convert all those formats into something it can play.
posted by bondcliff at 8:13 AM on January 12, 2007

Apple is the new Sony.

Thanks goodness, because Sony is becoming the new Zenith and/or ElectroHome.
posted by GuyZero at 8:14 AM on January 12, 2007

Thanks, chrisroberts. That looks much better.
posted by The Bellman at 8:22 AM on January 12, 2007

So, 95% of the market buys video on itunes stores or knows of to convert videos so they can work on a ATV/iPod Video. In most of the world you can't even buy movies on the store, you know..
posted by darkripper at 8:47 AM on January 12, 2007

Every product has some subset of all possible features, so every product is lacking. The question is whether or not any particular product has a good combination of available features, "good" defined by succeeding in the marketplace.

It's true that Apple partisans tend to blindly love the products of the company, but their feelings are no worse a predictor of whether a product will sell than the differently blinkered views of the geekly set who want all sorts of weird, arcane features included, even if they are of questionable value to most people and impossible for normal people to set up.

No product is right for everybody.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 8:50 AM on January 12, 2007

XBMC is bar none the best media solution i have ever come across. I like it so much that i have a capture card in my pc so that i can use xbmc on my pc.... I know it's absurd, but well whatever.
posted by sourbrew at 8:55 AM on January 12, 2007

The ATV doesn't need to do that, which is where the computer comes in. The ATV can't download torrents or rip DVDs either. But certainly there will be an easy way on the computer to convert all those formats into something it can play.

The whole idea is to have a simple "convergence" device that is as easy and intuitive to use as a standard household appliance. Converting videos to the right format on a computer first kinda defeats the object.

I've got an XBMC machine in our lounge, and it's great. Yes, the interface could be more polished (especially regarding the custom python script add-ons) but it's easy to use, and plays pretty much anything that I can throw at it. Even Mrs. Chunder has managed to use it without assistance, and she's not as much of a gadgetfreak as me...
posted by Chunder at 8:55 AM on January 12, 2007

Hey Hey! - This is actually very close to a geekquest I'm on right now - I don't think this is a derail, even:

I have a decent CRT flatscreen monitor that I'd like to convert for playing ps2 and television tuning - I've heard there are a few converters that can turn your CRT (or LCD) monitor into a HDTV, which is cool for me for the few ps2 games that claim to be high-res. The problem is the two models I can find both have good and bad reviews on the web.

I'm looking at the Viewsonic N6 and the Avermedia TVBox 9. Anyone have an opinion?
posted by Peter H at 9:16 AM on January 12, 2007

The best HTPC software - by far - is MediaPortal. I have yet to find a single thing it can't do. DVR? Check. Cable/satellite channel guide? Check. Frontend for, say, using console emulators? Check. Of course, it plays back any audio and video you throw at it flawlessly. It will take a bit of work to set up - you need the right hardware, codecs, and a supported remote (like the Microsoft MCE remote, which works great) - but it's worth it. It's got a plugin architecture with items like a weather viewer, Wikipedia reader, RSS reader, etc. Check it out; pretty awesome.
posted by Floach at 9:26 AM on January 12, 2007 [2 favorites]

I bought my XBox for XBMC and it was the best $150 I ever spent. Building my own system would have zero gain.
posted by smackfu at 9:28 AM on January 12, 2007

Apple hate seems to be the new axegrindfilter.

The question is, how easy is it to get all my non-iTunes video into iTunes? Ripped DVDs, downloaded video, YouTube, etc. I need some sort of one-click way to put it all in the right format to view on the ATV.

This can be done with the free iSquint.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:29 AM on January 12, 2007

I agree with sourbrew. XBMC is the best thing I've encountered. It's ability to stream any video or audio from a PC running a non-Microsoft operating system, in a different room of my house with no loss of quality is amazing.
posted by quin at 9:37 AM on January 12, 2007

Geexbox is a Linux HTPC distribution. Plays Divx, DVDs and comes with support for the Ati Remote Wonder. You could even add a tv card to the party.

But it doesn't support recording shows taken from the TV card, and thus fails as a TiVo replacement.

I'll see your Geexbox and raise you KnoppMyth and MythTV.
posted by bl1nk at 10:29 AM on January 12, 2007

MediaPortal is the WinXP/MCE port of XBMC, Floach.

I've though of getting a MacMini when they get Core2, BootCamping it to XP, and running MediaPortal. Since I run XBMC right now, the transition will be almost seamless. But, since I run XBMC right now, I'm in no real rush as it, as everyone has stated, can play pretty much anything. Hell, it even gives me the weather.
posted by linux at 10:32 AM on January 12, 2007

XBMC is terrific, easily the best (and cheapest!) solution I've found, but there are two issues with it that I'd love to see fixed:
1. Remote control is lousy. This is the one thing that TiVo really nailed and I still struggle with on XBMC. I'm using a wireless XBox controller for now, which sorta-kinda works for me, but nobody else can use without a 10 minute tutorial. The Xbox remote control kit thingy isn't much better. I like the idea of using a wireless PocketPC, but at least the PC version of the remote control software is clunky at best.
2. No HDTV. Oh, it'll play hi-def files -- at a couple frames per second. This, unfortunately, is a fundamental flaw of the platform; it just doesn't have the horsepower. I have little interest in gaming, but if XBMC could be ported to the XBox360 (it can't), I'd buy one today. I have a front-projector with a 10' screen, and man I'd love to have some 1080i goodness...
posted by LordSludge at 12:02 PM on January 12, 2007

From what I've seen and heard, even as a Linux lover, is that MediaPortal (FOSS for windows) is easier, more reliable, and has greater support for capture cards.
posted by dozo at 12:15 PM on January 12, 2007

It "lacks" features that 95% of the market do not need, because they would not use them

Unless one of those features is compatibility with existing video files.

The great majority (possibly 95% even), of online full-length, full-screen video content that's destined for a TV screen (both in the form of bootlegged movies and TV show episodes) is in either DivX or Xvid format.

AppleTV supports neither one. This device is about as useful as an iPod that only plays AAC encoded files -- fine if all you want to do is rip your own plastic discs and/or buy stuff from iTunes, but not very useful if you're already downloading MP3 files from existing sources.

Sure, Divx and Xvid content these days has a good chance of being pirated content -- but the same could be said of MP3 back in 2001 when the iPod was released. By not supporting the major filetypes, Apple is acting, well, like Sony.

I love my $200 Netgear eva700, despite the fact that it's clearly a prototype for their 8000 that's coming out later this year. It's plagued with typical v1.0 firmware problems, which are annoying, but not unbearable, and most of which can be worked-around with third-party software (either the open-source wizd or the fairly cheap twonkyvision). It plays nice with existing NAS units, and it's played literally every single video file format I've thrown at it (including files generated by MythTV). It even does 1080i. The next one has better digital outputs and will be able to do 1080p. Plus, it's got a USB port for external storage. They absolutely nailed it as far as interoperability.

And to me, that's what matters. If it can't play the files that I want to play, and work with storage hardware that I already have, it doesn't matter what features it has, or what the interface looks like.

I wanted Apple to get this one right, because they would help legitimize downloading of full-length TV shows, and because it's about time that one of these devices had an interface as good as can be built in Cupertino -- but they've missed the boat on this one.
posted by toxic at 1:19 PM on January 12, 2007

There's something I can't figure out. Can't you already hook video iPods to your tv? I mean, that's a rhetorical question, you CAN hook your iPod to your tv.

So what does this appleTv thing do? It seems like just another device to which you must transfer the files you've already downloaded to your mac and already put on your iPod. Why not just make a freaking AV out on the freaking mac, like this had 13 freaking years ago?!?!

ALSO, while I'm ranting, where the f is my 30th Anniversary Mac?
posted by headless at 1:45 PM on January 12, 2007

GBPVR is another windows option (albeit not opensource, it is free...)

FWIW, I run a site dedicated to building your own pvr *shrug* if you're looking for more info/help ( google fu for the name should find it... )
posted by rampy at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2007

The great majority (possibly 95% even), of online full-length, full-screen video content that's destined for a TV screen (both in the form of bootlegged movies and TV show episodes) is in either DivX or Xvid format.

If you took a survey of random folks off the street (who own a computer, even) and asked them if they have DivX or Xvid codecs installed, I'll bet $20 they'll give you a puzzled look. Most people just want to watch their TV shows, not learn how to squeeze out every last compression percentage of bootlegged porn.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:57 PM on January 12, 2007

If you could buy a linux htpc machine off the shelf and have it "just work" like you know the appletv will work, then we can talk.

As it stands right now, I spend enough time tweaking config and staring at a text editor for my work. I don't wanna do that to get a dvd ripped and playing, too.
posted by rsanheim at 2:10 PM on January 12, 2007

Blazecock: That's exactly my point. Most people don't know whether they are using Divx/Xvid, or MPEG4, or what... but if they're actively downloading shows from bittorrent and successfully watching them, they've certainly got something installed that can play the Xvid format (usually the VLC player or a codec pack).

So when they bring home their AppleTV and it refuses to show the bootlegged porn that they've been watching on their computer, they won't know that it's because Apple chose not to support Xvid, in favor of MPEG4 and H.264. They'll just know that the darn thing doesn't work with the vast majority of existing video content available on the Internet.

But the netgear device I mentioned (which you plug in and it "just works"), and XBMC, and virtually every other "media extender" on the market today will play them seamlessly (and they aren't vaporware, you can buy them today, not pre-order). And that's what you really want in a video player -- the ability to point it at any valid video file, and expect that it will play it, regardless of codec, source, or legitimacy of the content.

AppleTV doesn't do this. Competing products do. That's a lack of a pretty important feature.

But what do I know, I once bought a betamax.
posted by toxic at 2:25 PM on January 12, 2007

I'll doubledown on that bet with the followup that if you took a survey of random folks off the street and asked them if they have ever downloaded a video from iTunes and would be interested in watching that video on a full-sized TV, they'll probably give you a bunch of puzzled looks, too.

surveying random folks off the street is a crappy way of doing market research.

it's also probably handy to know that the ratio of people who download video from Bittorrent or similar services vs. the number of people who download videos over iTunes is about 5:1. The number of folks who download TV shows via torrents is about equal to the entire volume of video downloads from iTunes.

Most people want to get their TV in the fastest, most convenient way with the best possible quality. At the moment, torrenting meets that need pretty well and DivX/Xvid is what you'd need to support that arena.
posted by bl1nk at 2:30 PM on January 12, 2007

I'll see your Geexbox and raise you KnoppMyth and MythTV

agreed. mythtv can be a hassle to set up, but once it's running it's great. i live in a house where i'm the only tech savvy person, and i've got everyone using mythtv + torrentflux quite happily.

we have a 'living room laptop' with a bookmark for the torrentflux interface. i've set up mythtv to work with our remote. mythvideo isn't the prettiest thing, but it seems everyone can use it and watch what they've downloaded. people love it, i'm a hero :)
posted by christy at 2:48 PM on January 12, 2007

ohh, also, the fact that mythtv uses mplayer is great. i haven't found a player that handles as much as well as mplayer does. any it's easy to set up the remote to work with it as well.
posted by christy at 2:49 PM on January 12, 2007

No HDTV. Oh, it'll play hi-def files -- at a couple frames per second.

Not true. My current XBOX media center is outputting my movies @ 720p to my HDTV. Works fine. No frames lost. If I try pushing it to 1080, then it starts to strain, though the XBOX does theoretically support 1080.

There was a company a couple of years ago called Friendtech that came out with an upgraded XBOX system with a CPU that was twice as fast as the stock unit. Sadly, they're not only no longer making them, they're not even responding to email inquiries about their sordid past. Damned shame, if you ask me.

But yeah, it would be super-sweet to port this to the PS3 or XBOX360--either one of which can more than handle the processing requirements of HD streams. If only Microsoft would give the SDK access to the DirectX routines, or Sony would give access to the GPU...
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:28 PM on January 12, 2007

That netgear thing is neat, toxic. I like my XBMC but it definitely has rough edges. I hope netgear works out the kinks.
posted by smackfu at 3:53 PM on January 12, 2007

I also admire their chutzpah. "Play BitTorrent Downloads on Your HDTV" on the marketing page.
posted by smackfu at 3:54 PM on January 12, 2007

If you took a survey of random folks off the street (who own a computer, even) and asked them if they have DivX or Xvid codecs installed, I'll bet $20 they'll give you a puzzled look. Most people just want to watch their TV shows, not learn how to squeeze out every last compression percentage of bootlegged porn.

If they don't know what divx and xvid are, then they are not going to know how to download isqint to convert them to play them on this goofy box. There are already things out there that can do everything the Apple TV does, and with fewer restrictions.

And again, why would anyone want to have to convert their files to get 'em to play. It's just a step backwards. This will only be useful for people who buy all their content on itunes. In fact, a big part of it is probably trying to extend apple's near monopoly on sold DRM'd content from music to TV.

Tons of people play pirated or ripped music. but apple is the only company that sells many DRM'd digital tracks.
posted by delmoi at 4:09 PM on January 12, 2007

And don't forget: converting movies is not like converting some audio tracks from wav to Mp3. It's a time consuming process.
posted by darkripper at 4:22 PM on January 12, 2007

I find that the bitrate of the video you're trying to play in XBMC is more of a deciding factor than the resolution. I can play an Xvid encoded 720p movie with only slight slowdown in a few very tough spots, while a raw TS won't even think about playing at more than 2 frames per second, whether 720p or 1080i even though MPEG-2 should be easier to decode.

darkripper, what a good way to sell some beefy new machines! ;)
posted by wierdo at 4:58 PM on January 12, 2007

but apple is the only company that sells many DRM'd digital tracks.

Nice rhetorical trick.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:37 AM on January 13, 2007

whats the trick?
DRM is only a disadvantage.

I based the new dvd player purchase on the fact that it can play divx files too.

This way you can fit a whole series on a dvd no need for long annoying conversions. Video conversion is a pain in the ass.
posted by Iax at 6:51 PM on January 14, 2007

Iax - if you don't mind, could I asked which model of DVD player you got and whether you're happy with it?
I'm looking to get one that can play DIVX myself.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:12 PM on January 14, 2007

I actually remember when Divx was the worst DVD replacement idea ever. You had to buy the disc and then pay for each viewing? Yeah, from day one I knew that shit wouldn't fly. Fortunately they came up with a great codex that got leaked and became a standard.

Nowadays, the Wife and I are looking to replace our gen 1 DVD player and the ability to play Divx is essential. Not for any reason I will admit to here, but Divx and xvid are about the best things ever as far as I'm concerned.
posted by quin at 10:35 PM on January 14, 2007

Sort of late on the reply, but Divx the player/disc format have nothing to do with DivX ;-) the codec. The former was just a bastardization of the DVD format that had even more encryption with a special player that phoned in to get the (time limited) key. FWIW, you could pay $20 or $30 and unlock the disc for unlimited plays, but I think it was limited to the player on which you initially bought it.

DivX ;-) (the original version) was a hacked version of a not-quite-standard MPEG-4 implementation of Microsoft's. DivX and Xvid are both now just different variations of MPEG-4, both implemented from scratch to be legal from a copyright standpoint. Theoretically the company pushing DivX now pays the appropriate patent royalties making it perfectly legal everywhere in the world. Xvid, on the other hand, may not be quite kosher in some countries, I'm not sure...

We have this $40 Toshiba progressive scan DVD player that supposedly plays DivX. I don't know how well it works, though, since I only use the Xbox for media playing.
posted by wierdo at 8:32 PM on January 18, 2007

Thanks weirdo, I did not know that. I just sort of assumed that after the fiasco that was the Divx player format had run it's course and suddenly there was this awesome new codec on the market that was a known to be hacked proprietary format, that the two were related. (And that they had the same name probably didn't help my confusion.)

Also, I was a bit disappointed to discover that Xvid and Divx are not completely cross compatible. I had encoded some work I did in Xvid, (trying to stick with the 'legitimate' versions, doncha know) I went to play it on a buddies DVD player that was Divx compatable, and while it played, it did remarkably trippy things with the color ranges. That was a couple of years ago though, so I don't know if the two codecs have gotten closer in player friendliness.
posted by quin at 9:42 PM on January 18, 2007