Can you show me the doll that is the nice doll?

January 26, 2007 12:14 PM

How much has changed in in 50 years? Not much, found a young film student who reconstructed a study first carried out in the landmark case, Brown vs. Board of Education. Here's her film. (YouTube)
posted by allkindsoftime (45 comments total)

YouTube link floored me at around 4:20...

Is there any biological basis for this, or is it completely cultural??

Great post.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 12:21 PM on January 26, 2007

For the readers out there, here's a textual description.

And a previous Metafilter post.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:25 PM on January 26, 2007

Dammit, I knew this was too good to not already be out on the blue. I checked my link but clearly didn't search back enough. Sorry.
posted by allkindsoftime at 12:37 PM on January 26, 2007

I think I would like to see that experiment performed today, with more racial diversity in the test subjects. I wonder how the results would look now?
posted by IronLizard at 12:41 PM on January 26, 2007

From the comments:

Great video. You are very talented. Anyone who doubts racism exists only needs to read some of the ignorant comments to this film. The truth comes out when you can post anonymously on the internet.

Youtube comments are by far the bigest cesspool on the internet.
posted by delmoi at 12:45 PM on January 26, 2007

This doesn't count as a double, does it? I tried clicking on the link to the video in the other post, but it keeps crashing Firefox.

Please let this one live!
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 12:51 PM on January 26, 2007

Missed it the first time so I'm thankful for the repost. And wow: "Why do you think that's the bad doll?" "Because he's black."
posted by Turtles all the way down at 12:53 PM on January 26, 2007

What really disturbed me was when she says "show me the doll that looks like you" at the end of a round of questions, and the little black girl first reaches for the white doll and then gets this ashamed look on her face when she realizes that the doll she's just labeled as bad is actually the one that looks more like herself.

I saw this earlier today and was about to post it myself before I did a search for "doll test." Then I figured it would just get deleted anyway. It's too bad double posts don't get pardoned when they're really interesting.
posted by scottreynen at 12:54 PM on January 26, 2007

delmoi writes "Youtube comments are by far the bigest cesspool on the internet."

Aren't they?

It is nice to see that the users of YouTube are equal-opportunity shitheads, though. There are some who blame racism on the inherent genetic inferiority of blacks, but there are also some who blame it on the Jews controlling the media.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:54 PM on January 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

delmoi writes "Youtube comments are by far the bigest cesspool on the internet."

Digg has to be a close second.

I was pretty shocked to see this. I had seen the original video ages ago, and would have never thought it was still quite that bad.

It might be interesting to increase the sample size, and see if this is limited to urban environments or suburban, maybe contrast it with Canadians for a contrast (if there is one).
posted by inthe80s at 1:02 PM on January 26, 2007

I, too, wondered about the sample size. Were these kids pulled from the same school? Were they coached beforehand? Did they previously have black dolls that blew up and burned them when they were younger? Where do they get this idea of themselves? TV, magazines, parents, school? At what age does this association begin? At what age, if any, does it end? Will I ever stop asking rhetorical questions? Anyway, it makes me sad, and confused.
posted by billysumday at 1:11 PM on January 26, 2007

I'd also be interested in a multi-national study. What are the results like in various African nations? For that matter, how about in China, Japan, etc? Do two studies in the east Asian areas: one with black dolls and white dolls, one with asian dolls and white dolls.

I just got back from Japan, and I was astonished at how many Europeans were used in advertising. Not just for various high fasion type stuff, but for everyday things. A photography studio, for example, advertising its baby pictures used a picture of a white baby, not a Japanese baby.
posted by sotonohito at 1:14 PM on January 26, 2007

offtopic: xkcd on YouTube comments.
posted by chunking express at 1:24 PM on January 26, 2007

This is heart-breaking. A rusty pitchfork jammed straight in the heart of American race issues. Thanks for the post, because I too missed the first.

I appreciate it even more so after this comment was posted by Tiresias in another race-related thread (sorry, this may be some kind of quasi-selflink since I started that thread). While my post was intended to dogpile on idiots and explore the murky areas of racial tension, it was pointed out that all the foofaraw over the college kids does nothing to illustrate the true institutional racism that real humans have to live with. So now that we're done shaking our fingers at the mental lightweights of the world, this post is exactly what was needed to put the Big Problem back on the front burner.
posted by krippledkonscious at 1:32 PM on January 26, 2007

I think the doll test is another demonstration that racism is more of a cultural illness than a failing of individuals.

It feels good to villify individuals when they are caught in overt acts of racism. But it does nothing to change society. To change society, a force must be applied to it.

In physics, if a mass is unbalanced it cannot be balanced by ensuring the forces on it are neutral. A force towards the center of balance has to be applied.

I believe that society is similar. To correct an imbalance, you must apply a force in the opposite direction: a temporary inequality. This is why I have no truck with "libertarianism." It is just a euphemism for selfishness employed by those who wish to avoid doing their part to contribute to the health of the society they are in.

Who really is more responsible for ongoing systemic racism: the redneck who gets outed for uttering racist slurs but who has little real influence on the workings of society, or the high income professional who says, "I'm a libertarian, government has no place enforcing social equity" and is comfortable with society and government doing nothing to enforce change in, for example, the fact that resumés for a professional position are far more likely to result in an interview if the applicant has a white-sounding name as opposed to a black-sounding one?

A highly paid black professional is about as likely to propagate that particular symptom of systemic racism as a white one, because it comes from a cultural ill, not from individual conscious choices.

Fixing that cultural ill requires applying force to the society.
posted by lastobelus at 1:53 PM on January 26, 2007 [3 favorites]

applying force to the society

Good luck with that.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 1:58 PM on January 26, 2007

Am I a dick for believing that human thoughts and action of chauvinism, regardless of its platform, will never be eradicated?
posted by YoBananaBoy at 2:06 PM on January 26, 2007

No, YoBananaBoy, you're a dick if you believe that because such actions will never be eradicated, you shouldn't try to avoid them.
posted by ErWenn at 2:12 PM on January 26, 2007 [2 favorites]

I just got back from Japan, and I was astonished at how many Europeans were used in advertising. Not just for various high fasion type stuff, but for everyday things. A photography studio, for example, advertising its baby pictures used a picture of a white baby, not a Japanese baby.
I thought it reinforced my feelings as "other" because i mostly and overwhelmingly saw only Japanese people in reality there, and in their media (except for higher-end stuff, and US celebs in ads). I met a Turkish stylist who works there exclusively and he said it's much cooler to use Europeans for whatever you're trying to sell or show rather than regular old Japanese (which is like us with British accents i think) You spent a much longer time there tho, so saw more than i did.

This test is and will sadly remain as a damning indictment of us as a society. I actually just read something about Oprah's schools in Africa having a giant beauty component explicitly because of this, and how ugly and "other" she herself felt growing up here.
posted by amberglow at 2:20 PM on January 26, 2007

Double
posted by caddis at 2:36 PM on January 26, 2007

nice post , i thought i had seen this before, but i also hope this one stays.
posted by nola at 2:37 PM on January 26, 2007

US citizens descended from Europeans seem, after the first generation, to embrace "American" as part of their personal identities far more easily than those descended from African slaves, who often have an feeling of being in a country that was not made for them. Also, when I talk to American friends whose parents were immigrants from Asia or Africa, the word "American" is synonymous with "white" for them, which annoys me endlessly!

Everywhere I've been in the world, lighter skin is generally seen as a good thing. Part of this goes way back to the fact that, historically, the people with paler skin were probably wealthier and got to stay indoors more than the people with darker skin who had ot do more outdoor labor. The fact that European nations went on an empirial wealth spree, back in the day, served to underscore that idea, but did not mainly introduce that idea to the world. White powder had been used as makeup long before that.
posted by zennie at 2:38 PM on January 26, 2007

you're a dick if you believe that because such actions will never be eradicated, you shouldn't try to avoid them.

The courage to be was a concept I had become familiar from Tillich. It has stuck with me.

I think that supporting or struggling against whatever social activity we take as ill in contemporary society ... never ends up with the desired intentions. I believe even the concept of race has evolved from Anthropology trying to better understand humans.

Trying to better understand humans. Not Dick.

Judging humans based on skin color. Dick.

perhaps less coffee tomorrow morning.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 2:39 PM on January 26, 2007

Light-skinned immigrants in the United States make more money on average than those with darker complexions, and the chief reason appears to be discrimination, a researcher says. ...
posted by amberglow at 2:39 PM on January 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

and from there: ...Although many cultures show a bias toward lighter skin, Hersch said her analysis shows that the skin-color advantage was not due to preferential treatment for light-skinned people in their country of origin. The bias, she said, occurs in the U.S.

Economics professor Shelley White-Means of the University of Tennessee at Memphis said the study adds to the growing body of evidence that there is a "preference for whiteness" in America that goes beyond race. ...
posted by amberglow at 2:40 PM on January 26, 2007

I remember when I was very young, having my mother tell me that a cousin of mine only wanted to play with white dolls. I don't remember how the subject came up, but I remember being extremely confused by that bit of information. I also remember receiving twin white Cabbage Patch Kids (with red hair!) for a birthday and being all kinds of pissed off. How was I supposed to pretend they were my children when they didn't look anything like me?

As I've gotten older (and after having spent way more time with white people than with black people, both socially and through the media) I still feel the same bewildered confusion when confronted with stuff like this.
posted by eunoia at 2:41 PM on January 26, 2007

YouTube link floored me at around 4:20...

Is there any biological basis for this, or is it completely cultural??

Look at the sweatshirt the girl at 4:50 is wearing. Disney's three princesses.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:45 PM on January 26, 2007

the word "American" is synonymous with "white" for them, which annoys me endlessly!

But that's true even for all of us whites don't match an "all-American ideal". Those of us who are swarthier, or more ethnic, or more southern European or Mediterranean, etc, don't think of a Greek or Sicilian or Romanian when we think "typical American"--we think light skin, maybe blond, light eyes, tall, robust--more Scandinavian or Los Angeles, i think.
posted by amberglow at 2:45 PM on January 26, 2007

And this video is great because it highlights what the web can be good for. Distributing personal experiences where it can activate cultural change on a personal level.

And a neat new way for me to over-intellectualize youtube.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 2:51 PM on January 26, 2007

Now that I've already made my serious point, can I ask: Who else gets physically ill whenever you see those goddamned Bratz dolls? Holy shit! There's so many awful feelings congealing within my gut whenever I lay an eye on those terrible things, I can hardly articulate them all. Probably a bit to do with their grotesque, anorexic fetus body dysmorphic disorder, and a little to do with their obvious promotion of gold-diggery. My unnecessary point being that all of those dolls are bad.
posted by krippledkonscious at 2:55 PM on January 26, 2007

when we think "typical American"--we think light skin, maybe blond, light eyes, tall, robust--more Scandinavian or Los Angeles, i think.

Not me. When I think of "American" the first person that pops in my head is every South Asian store owner I have ever met. Or Ethopian cab drivers. Or Honduran painters. I think of immigrants. Huh, never given that much thought before.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 2:58 PM on January 26, 2007

Those of us who are swarthier, or more ethnic, or more southern European or Mediterranean, etc, don't think of a Greek or Sicilian or Romanian when we think "typical American"--we think light skin, maybe blond, light eyes, tall, robust--more Scandinavian or Los Angeles, i think.

There's a clear (to me) difference in degree though. If you ask a first-generation European American to physically describe Brad Pitt, you are far less likely to get "American" as a physical desciptor, as in, "he is American" meaning "he is white and blue-eyed."
posted by zennie at 3:06 PM on January 26, 2007

It's worth noting that prejudice of lighter-skinned vs. darker skinned peoples is not an American-only phenomenon. I lived in Asia a long time, and noted that, for example, well-off Chinese generally don't sunbathe so that they're not thought to be workers who need to be in the sun. Lighter-skinned South Asians tend to look down on darker-skinned ones (Chinese vs. Filipinos, e.g.) In India and Japan fair skin has for centuries been singled out as a sign of beauty in Literature and art.

The point is, this is a complex issue. Perhaps the reason that such things persist 50 years after Brown vs. Board of Education is because Brown vs. Board of Education didn't address them.
posted by QuietDesperation at 3:19 PM on January 26, 2007

When I was in first grade, one of my friends was black. She always had her hair in twisted braids. I wanted that. I told my Mom. It took a long time for her to explain to me that my fine, straight blonde hair just wouldn't stay in braids like those. I really had no idea why Monique's hair was different than mine. So for the longest time I wanted black hair so I could have braids. I guess that would have made me an outlier in that study.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 3:24 PM on January 26, 2007

probably a bit to do with their grotesque, anorexic fetus body dysmorphic disorder

No, Bratz dolls are bad because they each come with a thousand tiny little shitty rubber accessories that get lost in the carpet.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:25 PM on January 26, 2007

When that girl showed which doll "looks like her" my heart fell on the floor. I thought of Malcolm X's "Who taught you to hate yourself." The rage in that voice, seeing as he did those same eyes pick the "bad" doll. Having lived in an all white (MN) then almost all black community (South Chicago), and having travelled to every state in this country I know racism is alive and thriving and we have a looooong way to go. New Orleans is a living example. America was founded on racism and we sill have representatives telling Blacks to forget slavery. Still, I got to believe we'll get there... no matter how sad the road is on the way. Sing the song:
"No universal laws
Of human misery
Create a common cause
Or common history
That ease black people's pains
Nor break black people's chains." -Etheridge Knight
posted by sarcasman at 3:28 PM on January 26, 2007

It startles me that anyone is surprised by this (though it sure does hurt to see it).

As a number of comments have already pointed out, what's beneath the surface of this phenomenon may be far more complex than meets than meets the eye. I don't mean that racism doesn't exist, but rather that it seems we have such a depressingly long way to go in understanding its causes (and, thus, in being able to deal with it effectively).

For example, what's the role of class in structuring a young person's self-image? Might it be, for instance, hardwired into the developing human psyche that we subconsciously and inevitably uphold the image of the most powerful and affluent as ideal? If so, how could we mitigate the potential damage caused by such a phenomenon?
posted by treepour at 4:14 PM on January 26, 2007

Metafilter: applying force to the society
posted by dogwalker at 4:19 PM on January 26, 2007

applying force to society:

by force I mean social forces -- affirmative action, for example, and other social programs intended to move a society back toward balance along a particular metric by deliberately imposing an opposite inequity.

I realize most Americans will sneer at the idea. And you have the social statistics to go along with that.
posted by lastobelus at 4:33 PM on January 26, 2007

YoBananaBoy writes "Not me. When I think of 'American' the first person that pops in my head is every South Asian store owner I have ever met. Or Ethopian cab drivers. Or Honduran painters."

Well, I think of a differently able transgendered lesbian of color (she's half-Black, half-Filipina). So there.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:47 PM on January 26, 2007

Affirmative Action and desegregation have pretty much been decimated in many places--the Supreme Court is against it all now.
posted by amberglow at 4:52 PM on January 26, 2007

When I think of American I think of pleistocene megafauna, before the damned people showed up and ruined the neighborhood.
posted by jfuller at 5:16 PM on January 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm with Jfuller.
Stupid Horse, Sloth, and Wooly Mammoth eating humans!!
posted by Megafly at 5:40 PM on January 26, 2007

Which dollie is good?
(holds up megatherium plushie)


And which dollie is bad?
(holds up Brad Pitt plushie)

And which dollie is more like you?
( ...... bursts into tears)
posted by jfuller at 5:59 PM on January 26, 2007

Very troubling. Still, the experiment seems to contain too many uncontrolled factors to produce meaningful results. From a very early age, children have a startling capacity to read and interpret social cues, both perceived and intentional; I'm not suggesting that the woman who did this was biased in any way, though. It would be interesting to see if the results were different if the person standing in the room and asking the children questions were white, or male, or another of an ethnic extraction that doesn't fit into the white/black dichotomy.
posted by clockzero at 6:38 PM on January 26, 2007