Nowhere Do They Talk About Making A Quality Product
February 3, 2007 2:40 PM   Subscribe

Rather than building a quality product. They are focused on defeating the enemy (pdf pg37) regardless of the collateral damage They have put traps in the code (pg 11789 lines 21-25) so that competing products would not run. All those traps lead to more and more bloated code that took years to rewrite. And they are still at it (pdf).
posted by meddeviceengineer (52 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason: this is a weird post. odd collection of old anti-MS stuff to explain Vista?



 
Um, yeah.

Hm.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:48 PM on February 3, 2007


How dare they!!!
posted by grytpype at 2:49 PM on February 3, 2007




I'm as much for bashing Miscrosoft as anybody, but I find it's better to be sober when I do it.
posted by veedubya at 2:52 PM on February 3, 2007


Do you have a blog about hating Microsoft that I could visit?
posted by found missing at 2:53 PM on February 3, 2007


Damn, I was all excited. I was sure this thread was about Duke Nukem Forever. Vaporware. . . bloatware, hey what'choo wearing under there?
(nothing)
posted by isopraxis at 2:54 PM on February 3, 2007


In case anyone missed it, from the second to last link:

---------------------
From: Bill Gates
Send: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 2:53 PM
To: Nathan Myhnrold
CC: Paul Maritz
Subject: Security as lock in

I believe as we evolve our security capabilites there must be some way to set this up so that our operating systems have shared secrets with each other that make them work better with each other than with other operating systems - whether its JAVAOS layered on top of us or clones or anything else.

I think we need to make this an explicit goal of our security strategy.
---------------------

posted by bhouston at 3:03 PM on February 3, 2007 [1 favorite]


"And they are still at it" is an email from 1997. I hate microsoft a great deal, but I think I hate this post even more...
posted by mrnutty at 3:03 PM on February 3, 2007


no kidding, what the fuck is this post...


/30 + days up time on my xp service pack 2 machine

No one has yet been able to tell me why i need even 30 days of uptime unless I am running a server, which will be linux. Please let me know what is so horrible about an os that has kept my computer running without a crash for the last month.
posted by sourbrew at 3:07 PM on February 3, 2007


Well, I take it back actually - I hate microsoft more than this post. But, then, I really don't like microsoft.
posted by mrnutty at 3:10 PM on February 3, 2007


i remember when i used to post while drunk
posted by localhuman at 3:15 PM on February 3, 2007


If you don't like their product, then stop buying it and stop using it. I don't get why people bitch so much about MS and still use their products. It's not like the days of yore when there really were no alternatives.

(And before anyone says "but you can't buy a PC without Windows" I give you A) Apple B) newegg and commodity hardware.)
posted by Rhomboid at 3:19 PM on February 3, 2007


Please let me know what is so horrible about an os that has kept my computer running without a crash for the last month.

for every minute your computer runs windows a virtual kitten dies a horrible, painful death
posted by pyramid termite at 3:19 PM on February 3, 2007 [2 favorites]


Please let me know what is so horrible about an os that has kept my computer running without a crash for the last month.

Nothing at all. And that would be my point. If I was to enter into this conversation. Which I won't. Since I'm on that other OS.
posted by hal9k at 3:24 PM on February 3, 2007


The point is that Microsoft is a slow moving target that is fun to kick and doesn't make you feel bad afterwards.

Which is its only redeeming quality.

See? Fun!
posted by JWright at 3:33 PM on February 3, 2007


the reason people bitch about microsoft is because you can't simply say "ok, i'm not going to touch that shit." -- i wish.. there are so many things wrong with MS that seriously.. anyway.. slashdot has all that stuff.

most people have a windows machine which means you can not ignore them. you ever try to build a web application? you simply can't say "go buy a mac" to everyone on the internet (safari kind of blows also, but in a different, more stylish way).

the problem really is that you _have_ to interact with MS's shitty broken ass awfully designed software _all the time_ and that hurts.

thank god for parallels :p
posted by dminor at 3:42 PM on February 3, 2007


Please let me know what is so horrible about an os that has kept my computer running without a crash for the last month.

Mine has been running smoothly since the day I bought the computer over 1.5 years ago. I have shut down voluntarily now and then; no crashes.

Also, I heard in Korea if you don't use IE the computer punches you in groin or something.
posted by drjimmy11 at 3:42 PM on February 3, 2007 [1 favorite]


The fifth link had me roaring with laughter. Read that if you only read one of the links...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:48 PM on February 3, 2007


what is so horrible about an os that has kept my computer running without a crash for the last month.

oh, i don't know, maybe the fact that it is produced by scheming two-faced deceitful cutthroat bastards who represent the foulest manipulation of free market capitalism since the days of the robber barons? but why should you care, you've got 30 days uptime?
posted by quonsar at 4:11 PM on February 3, 2007 [2 favorites]


quonsar: yes!
posted by mrnutty at 4:14 PM on February 3, 2007


"oh, i don't know, maybe the fact that it is produced by scheming two-faced deceitful cutthroat bastards who represent the foulest manipulation of free market capitalism since the days of the robber barons? but why should you care, you've got 30 days uptime?"

oh please, Apple has done more than anyone else to foist drm on us as a consumer nation. They ARE ALL JUST COMPANIES, none of them are ethically superior. However, i would point out that microsoft has contributed via bill and his wife to the largest philanthropic outpouring ever, which can not be marginalized, even if you would have spent his money on different items first.
posted by sourbrew at 4:23 PM on February 3, 2007


I blame Microsoft for making me have to relearn keyboard shortcuts when I switched to a better operating system. They should have gotten them right a long time ago, and have yet to do so with Vista!
posted by furtive at 4:23 PM on February 3, 2007


Apple has done more than anyone else to foist drm on us

who's talking about DRM?

i would point out that microsoft has contributed via bill and his wife to the largest philanthropic outpouring ever, which...

...he had to steal before he could give away.

They ARE ALL JUST COMPANIES, none of them are ethically superior.

that kind of belief is worth billions to ethically inferior companies. did you suppose you came by that belief naturally, deduced it all by yourself in some philosophical epiphany? you may want to examine the source of that belief. i'd check the kool-aid pitcher.
posted by quonsar at 4:34 PM on February 3, 2007


Which I won't. Since I'm on that other OS.

Color Computer Disk Extended Color BASIC?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:37 PM on February 3, 2007


Micorsoft has been all downhill since they released Olympic Decathlon.

I was in the market for a PC in the late 80s but x86, DOS, and Windows was such crap I had to save for a Mac for a couple of years. Windows 3 was a joke, 9x was a bodge, Win2K was pretty good -- damn good really -- but with OS X on the horizon I could hang on for it.

The Allchin rant directed to billg and ballmer from 2004 summarizes my opinion of XP vs. OS X 10.3+ well enough.

Vista is from what I've gathered roughly equivalent to 10.1 right now, but I to be fair I do respect Micorsoft's work with the xbox 360, XNA, C#, the CLR -- these are areas where the company is the global technical leader.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 4:53 PM on February 3, 2007


Not sure if you were joking, ROU_Xenophobe, but I believe that the basic in the COCO was microsoft's.
posted by jepler at 5:10 PM on February 3, 2007


We have to be against Microsoft, even if we use their products.

The only safe way for all of us is in competitive markets. Microsoft wants to run a monopoly market, like it does in Korea.

So, even if some of their products are good, they are bad for us because monopoly means price fixing and consumer gouging. That's the business of Bill Gates, much more than any performance of any software.

So I use Word and ppt and run Firefox on XP. But fuck them, all the way, all the time. There is not enough competition in this market for our sake.
posted by bru at 5:31 PM on February 3, 2007


Shorter version: "My corporate loyalty is deeper and derives more of its basis from rational choice than your corporate loyalty*."

* "Unless you're running linux on your personal computer. In which case, you have more free time than I do."
posted by xthlc at 5:36 PM on February 3, 2007 [1 favorite]


in 2 years, people will be bitching about how buggy OSx is. after their switch to intel chips, and their turn towards DRM, virus designers will find it as fashionable and easy to attack OSx as they have windows.
(this c omes from a dedicated OSx user who is a little put off by many people's unquestioned reverence of all things apple)
posted by localhuman at 5:37 PM on February 3, 2007


fortunately, there is GNOME, and KDE. My interactions with GNOME over the past year have, while sometimes difficult, been good.

in a few years, these operating systems will become more friendly to the average user. as people begin to realize that both apple and microsoft are evil (apple is just prettier at being evil), hopefully they'll give these open source alternatives a looksee.
posted by localhuman at 5:42 PM on February 3, 2007


in 2 years, people will be bitching about how buggy OSx is. after their switch to intel chips, and their turn towards DRM, virus designers will find it as fashionable and easy to attack OSx as they have windows.

I'm not sure what you mean about Apple's "turn towards DRM." Especially not when you compare it to Microsoft's ability to remotely unsign drivers in Windows Vista.

OS X is not going to be any less stable because it's running on an Intel chip instead of a Motorola one. To claim otherwise is just silly.
posted by oaf at 5:51 PM on February 3, 2007


...less stable or more vulnerable to attack because it's running on an Intel chip...
posted by oaf at 5:52 PM on February 3, 2007


However, i would point out that microsoft has contributed via bill and his wife to the largest philanthropic outpouring ever, which can not be marginalized, even if you would have spent his money on different items first.

He doesn't get a free pass for doing what he's supposed to do. Bill Gates is the richest person on the planet, he's supposed to use some of that money to help others, it's the morally right thing to do. He has the power to make some people's lives better, to propel them and maybe society in some generally positive direction. So, yes, thank you Mr. Gates for your philanthropic acts, but it doesn't make you better and superior and excuse the shitty acts you've pulled and continue pulling. It just makes you halfway decent. Maybe one day you can go the whole way.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:06 PM on February 3, 2007


in 2 years, people will be bitching about how buggy OSx is. after their switch to intel chips, and their turn towards DRM, virus designers will find it as fashionable and easy to attack OSx as they have windows.

Please write down my email so that in two years you can tell me not only how wrong you are, but how ignorant your statements are on so many levels.
posted by justgary at 6:07 PM on February 3, 2007


MetaFilter: Please write down my email so that in two years you can tell me not only how wrong you are, but how ignorant your statements are on so many levels
posted by found missing at 6:09 PM on February 3, 2007 [1 favorite]


I just bought a new laptop. It would have been nice to buy a naked one without XP installed, but that wasn't a choice. (Yes, I do know there are a few OS-less or linux-preinstalled machines out there, but there's a very limited selection.)

From what I understand, XP and probably Vista are more stable than the older MS operating systems, but I'm just disgusted to have to deal with such an unethical company. If they had been making quality products all this time while pissing in the well it would be one thing.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:39 PM on February 3, 2007


Bill Gates may not be evil, but he is a jackass.
posted by eustacescrubb at 6:47 PM on February 3, 2007


justgary: The switch to Intel will have nothing to do with OSX becoming a virus laden shit sandwich like Windows is. (I say this as a regular Windows user who has learned after many years not to hate it. XP doesn't suck so badly, except for the virus laden shit sandwich part)

First, OSX users do not, by default, all have administrative capabilities, which automagically eliminates many vectors of attack. Secondly, what will be OSX's downfall will not be Intel, but instead more widespread adoption. Besides, even when the OSX user accounts become virus laden shit sandwiches, the user will have the option of fixing things without reinstalling the entire OS or spending the better part of a day cleaning up, as the user account, by definition (unless the user is the sort to supply his/her administrative password without regard to who or what is asking), will be where the virus lives.

As I mentioned in passing earlier, as of Windows 2000, Windows is actually usable for getting things done. It only took them the better part of 20 years. It usually doesn't crash for a good long while. That said, just today my new Thinkpad crashed, for the first time. Its uptime at that point was far less than 30 days, although that was due to my rebooting it on occasion. Sadly, I haven't changed anything recently, so all I can do is hope that it was a stray cosmic ray, rather than some brokenness I'll be dealing with until the end of time (or I switch exclusively to Linux).

Of course, I could get relatively long uptimes out of 9x, just by hardly using it.

None of that excuses Microsoft's monopolizing. They still make it difficult for my distributor to sell me a computer without a Windows license unless they don't sell me a hard drive with it, either, and that's not even the beginning of it.
posted by wierdo at 6:56 PM on February 3, 2007


The fifth link had me roaring with laughter. Read that if you only read one of the links...

AAAAAGH MY &*#$)%ING EYES

I did not need to know about that guy's apparently literal hardon for Apple. I did not.
posted by sleeplessunderwater at 7:43 PM on February 3, 2007


He doesn't get a free pass for doing what he's supposed to do. Bill Gates is the richest person on the planet, he's supposed to use some of that money to help others, it's the morally right thing to do.

Argh. I'm left-center in my political/ideological leanings for the most part, but statements like this always make me angry. It's one of those mile-wide, inch-deep blanket generalizations, much like "all corporations are evil."
posted by Zinger at 8:17 PM on February 3, 2007


Not a great FFP. I just caught the actual story over on Slashdot and now I understand.

From this email:

---------------------
From: Jim Allchin
Send: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:38AM
To: Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer
Subject: losing our way...

This is a rant. I'm sorry. I am not sure how the company lost sight of what matters to our customers (both business and home) the most, but in my view we lost out war. [...] I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft. [...] LH [Longhorn, AKA Vista] is a pig and I don't see any solution to this problem. [...]
---------------------

posted by bhouston at 8:28 PM on February 3, 2007


So I use Word and ppt and run Firefox on XP. But fuck them, all the way, all the time. There is not enough competition in this market for our sake.
posted by bru at 8:31 PM EST on February 3 [+]
[!]


OS debates are always pointless, but this line of thinking I never understood. Define "enough competition". Once upon a time, there was one phone company. Then it was broken up, and through competitive market forces we basically have one phone company again - Verizon, which used to be Bell Atlantic, which in turn used to be Bell of Pennsylvania, which was one of the original "baby bells". We're back to one phone company, after the emergence and disintegration of MCI and Worldcom, after the birth and spread of cellular, after cale, in the face of VOIP, we are back to basically one phone company, that oh by the way is going to own all data traffic to the home in about five years because of their FIOS fiber rollout.

The thing that all of you who think along the Microsoft=evil monopoly and must die lack a long term big-picture perspective. There are actually, by my count, roughly eight operating systems active in the market. Windows xp/Vista, OSX, Linux/Unix, the Wii, the Playstation, the XBOX, Windows Mobile, and Palm. Computers aren't the big things sitting under your desk. They are your phones, your game systems, and your DVR's.

Let's assume Vista is a monumental catastrophe. That would be MS's low point. Do you really think a company with those kinds of resources isn't going to hire the best they can find to fix the problem? Companies are not living creatures, they don't die, and they don't always have the same brains running them. Apple in 2007 is not Apple of 1994. Gates, Ballmer et al are getting old, they know it and they'd probably like to retire at some point.

The future of MS is people like J Allard, younger people with tremendous minds and ambition. They turned the game console market, a business that Microsoft was not even a part of ten years ago, and they destroyed everyone but Sony. Yeah, nintendo is still around, but as a low-price novelty. They rolled out a Windows Media center five years before apple uttered the word "iTV", and they are focused on dominating the living room. Zune is a big joke ha ha ha, but guess what, they capture 10% of the market in December. What will happen after version 2, 3, 4, 5 come out? Do you really think the Zune 5 years from now is going to be the same thing it is now?

Stop talking about monopolies like econ profs from 1974. There is no such thing as monopoly anymore. Is apple a monopoly in music players? Why not? Is google a monopoly on search and contextual advertising? All the LCDs in any device on the planet earth come from five companies, 2 korean, 2 japanese, and one taiwanese. Is that an oligopoly? Is MS really a monopoly? Why, because the dominate a market segment that is increasingly unimportant?

Microsoft isn't going to die any time soon, precisely because the people who work there routinely send out emails like Allchin's. They are perpetually paranoid. And as Intel's former CEO put it, only the paranoid survive.
posted by Pastabagel at 9:10 PM on February 3, 2007


that kind of belief is worth billions to ethically inferior companies. did you suppose you came by that belief naturally, deduced it all by yourself in some philosophical epiphany? you may want to examine the source of that belief. i'd check the kool-aid pitcher.
posted by quonsar at 7:34 PM EST on February 3


Please don't suggest for a second that Apple is somehow ethically superior. Steve Jobs is being investigated for stock options backdating shenanigans, and their CFO left under a cloud. Say what you want about their products, but from a corporate perspective, MSFT is squeaky clean.
posted by Pastabagel at 9:26 PM on February 3, 2007




All your hardware are belong to DRM. Apple's switch to Intel is a sign of their subsurviance to the RIAA and Jack Valenti's Hollywood content industry.

this mefi thread
has some good reference.
posted by localhuman at 9:55 PM on February 3, 2007


Say what you want about their products, but from a corporate perspective, MSFT is squeaky clean.

I don't disagree with your point, but your definition of "squeaky clean" leaves something to be desired.
posted by sparkletone at 10:05 PM on February 3, 2007


Opinions are like assholes: everyone's got one.

Some of you are as ignorantly opinionated as the homeopathic loons who haunt the cancer newsgroups.

Seriously, if you don't have expertise in the industry, STFU. You are not contributing useful factual information that benefits consumer education. Advocacy should be based on fact, not distorted misunderstandings of the fundamentals.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:22 PM on February 3, 2007


They ARE ALL JUST COMPANIES, none of them are ethically superior.

that kind of belief is worth billions to ethically inferior companies. did you suppose you came by that belief naturally, deduced it all by yourself in some philosophical epiphany? you may want to examine the source of that belief. i'd check the kool-aid pitcher.


There are obviously some ethically sound companies out there, Ben & Jerry's, Google (well, in the past) but Apple isn't one of them. Please.
posted by delmoi at 10:39 PM on February 3, 2007


So we've got it all resolved, then? All is well? No more fussin? Good. Gnite!
posted by disclaimer at 10:55 PM on February 3, 2007


The future of MS is people like J Allard, younger people with tremendous minds and ambition. They turned the game console market, a business that Microsoft was not even a part of ten years ago, and they destroyed everyone but Sony. Yeah, nintendo is still around, but as a low-price novelty.

Nintendo makes a shitload of money, tons from their portables section, and the Wii is getting tons of buzz, far more then the PS3, and it's sold three times as many units, according to Wikipedia.

OS debates are always pointless, but this line of thinking I never understood. Define "enough competition". Once upon a time, there was one phone company. Then it was broken up, and through competitive market forces we basically have one phone company again - Verizon,

There are three or four major phone companies, Qwest, Verizon, and AT&T. Plus cable companies, cell providers, ISPs, and so on. "Communication" is a much more diverse industry then it was at the time of the breakup. When Ma Bell broke up, if you wanted to do voice communications with someone it was literally over AT&Ts wires or a CB Radio. The comparison doesn't hold at all, not at all.

here are actually, by my count, roughly eight operating systems active in the market. Windows xp/Vista, OSX, Linux/Unix, the Wii, the Playstation, the XBOX, Windows Mobile, and Palm.

The Xbox 360 runs windows (Win2k of all things), windows mobile is a form of windows. Either way, the OSs on video game systems require applications to be "blessed" by the hardware makers, you can't just sit down and write programs for them.

The vast majority of real work, and real slacking is done with a PC running Windows, Mac OS or Linux, with Windows running on 90% of the boxes. Obviously you can segment the market enough to make anything seem like a monopoly, but intelligent people can tell the difference between something illusory. I mean you could say AT&T didn't have a monopoly because you could always use a CB radio or send a telegraph, but come on. Anti-trust laws exist for a reason.
posted by delmoi at 10:57 PM on February 3, 2007


Please don't suggest for a second that Apple is somehow ethically superior.

There are obviously some ethically sound companies out there, Ben & Jerry's, Google (well, in the past) but Apple isn't one of them. Please.

Pastabagel and delmoi, i didn't say fuck-all about apple. never even mentioned apple. are you people having the same conversation as i am? here, let me put it in terms your entertainment-addled brains can grok: i was challenging sourbrew's assertion that ethics are somehow irrelevant in business, that companies are just companies and ethically neutral, none being ethically superior to any other. i found that to be a sweeping and ignorant view. not to mention completely inaccurate. please explain in what possible way that becomes twisted in your minds into some kind of pro-apple statement???
posted by quonsar at 10:59 PM on February 3, 2007


Vista is from what I've gathered roughly equivalent to 10.1 right now, but I to be fair I do respect Micorsoft's work with the xbox 360, XNA, C#, the CLR -- these are areas where the company is the global technical leader.

C# and the CLR are lame java ripoffs
posted by delmoi at 11:03 PM on February 3, 2007


I have nothing to add, apart from mentioning that the PC's versus Mac debate has now been conclusively resolved.
posted by the cydonian at 11:09 PM on February 3, 2007


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