Comments on: Catenaries and dirigibles

Catenaries and dirigibles

vronsky — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:55:07 -0800

Joanna Newsom "a special treat from your friends at Moistworks: Three bootlegs from Joanna Newsom's performance in Greensboro, North Carolina, last November, unavailable anywhere else. You won't be disappointed (unless, to steal the best thing Dave Eggers ever said, you are the sort of person who is usually disappointed, in which case this will be yet another disappointment)."

By: Richard Daly

Richard Daly — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:57:13 -0800

MetaFilter: yet another disappointment.

By: 2sheets

2sheets — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:09:11 -0800

I saw her on this tour and the band really brought a different feel to these songs. Excellent post.

By: Hildegarde

Hildegarde — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:13:28 -0800

...moistworks? Is this porn?

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:15:34 -0800

...moistworks? Is this porn? Well, there is some Van Dykes involved.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:20:15 -0800

"...moistworks? Is this porn?" Considering the crush I have on Ms. Newsom, I hope so.

By: grobstein

grobstein — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:20:25 -0800

I remember reading that women especially loathe the word "moist" but I can only find anecdotal support.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:28:08 -0800

Her show made me WEEP and I am not a weeper. This FPP does not nearly make me weep, but it oughtn't be so single-linky.

By: YoBananaBoy

YoBananaBoy — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:29:16 -0800

thank you. PEACH PLUM PEAR

By: docgonzo

docgonzo — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:34:17 -0800

These are not bootlegs but field recordings. /pedant

By: gergtreble

gergtreble — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:35:00 -0800

I love this woman.

By: contraption

contraption — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:39:38 -0800

THAT REMIX IS AWFUL

By: vronsky

vronsky — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:41:29 -0800

I kinda like it, but you probably have better musical taste than I do.

By: contraption

contraption — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:43:15 -0800

Of course I do, but don't feel bad: my musical taste is superior to that of anyone I've ever met.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:48:36 -0800

except for me, contraption. vronsky, I rather think your posting history (momus, vitalic) make it seem you, you, you oughtta know better than to defend a yickymix that dishevels apart and sutures her golden lyrics together with aural duct tape. I would love a good bootleg/field recording of Sawdust and Diamonds, which came alive in concert so powerfully.

By: unSane

unSane — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:48:55 -0800

Ummm. Chick with harp. I'm so not clicking.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:52:29 -0800

unsane, see previous.

By: wemayfreeze

wemayfreeze — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:59:11 -0800

There's a bootleg floating around on YFP2PN from the First Unitarian Church (Philadelphia, 11.16.06) that does a surprisingly good job of capturing how her show sounded on this last tour. I can't really listen to the record since seeing her live so this recording has been a life-saver. Definitely recommend.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:59:50 -0800

" you, you oughtta know better" - but I posted the Schnappi song too, so, I guess it all evens out in the end.

By: chudder

chudder — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:05:12 -0800

Is this really all you can do on this side of the blue? Thanks for the tracks, and here are some more live recordings.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:06:38 -0800

And Ambrosia, just curious, what videos/films did you end up using in your class re your askmefi question?

By: Afroblanco

Afroblanco — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:19:01 -0800

You know, it's weird. The first few times I heard Ms. Newsom's music, it was like fingernails on chalkboard. I hated it. In a way that I rarely hate any music that isn't smooth jazz. However, it got to the point where I hated it so much that I actually started to like it. Now I like it enough that if I heard about her coming to town, I'd probably pay to see her perform. Her music has serious pug appeal - it's so ugly that it's cute.

By: lumensimus

lumensimus — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:18:52 -0800

Afroblanco, I know exactly what you mean. I listened to her last album (not "Ys," but the one before that) a little and abhorred it. Do you find that the fondness you developed lines up at all with the rabid critical acclaim she's received, or are the claims that she is a magical mystery goddess that can make the very air you breathe taste like joy as hyperbolic as they sound? I'd like to like her. Who doesn't like joy?

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:34:23 -0800

vronsky, I'm still holding out on finalizing the youtubeness curation for those last few days of the class, and frankly I'm not finding a very encouraging turnout of p2p political action, social commentary or oppositional spectatorship practices utilizing detournement - at least not compared with the syllabus of screenings leading up to this technological moment. If you're curious about those or the topic generally, my email's in the profile.

By: carsonb

carsonb — Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:55:56 -0800

Here's her videos for Peach Plum Pear (youtube) and Sprout and the Bean (quicktime 3.7mb). She's dreamy. *swoon*

By: rougy

rougy — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:49:39 -0800

I love little elfish chicks with pretty voices and talent. Thanks for the post.

By: nonreflectiveobject

nonreflectiveobject — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:53:52 -0800

I hated her music until Ys came out. This record is wonderful. She has hidden some mighty compositional tricks behind these long pop songs. The way the time signature or key will modulate without you noticing is amazing. It's like musical sleight of hand; she will use something like a great lyric or melodic flourish to distract you from the very cunning methods she's using to create change in the underlying structures. Also, I like the way she has developed her totally unique voice. She seems to have dropped the little orphan annie bullshit in favor of a very nuanced and beautiful "bad" voice. In short, Ms. Newsom totally rocks these days.

By: matteo

matteo — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 01:08:05 -0800

I like her husband

By: Sterling Hoyt

Sterling Hoyt — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 01:26:14 -0800

(erm, more like third cousin)

By: srboisvert

srboisvert — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 01:28:31 -0800

Can somebody please write a greasemonkey script that removes all "metafilter: [insert echolalia here]" comments?

By: pax digita

pax digita — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 04:38:12 -0800

Oh, wow. Does she come in six-packs or something? Whew.

By: dobbs

dobbs — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 05:40:53 -0800

matteo, Gavin Newsom's her cousin. She's single, but engaged, I believe, to the extraordinarily talented Bill Calahan.

By: Chocomog

Chocomog — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 05:55:38 -0800

A disappointment? Hardly. I absotootly love Ys As a musician and someone listens to a variety of music (including industrial and death metal), I lurves this album. One of the few albums with 10+ minute songs that I don't even notice the length. So bugger off, all you blow hards.

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 05:59:07 -0800

unsane, see previous. posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 8:52 PM PST on February 7 [+] [!] Ummm, 'shreiking' chick with harp who sounds like Bjorke and is liked by people with a taste for Zappa. Still not clicking.

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:02:55 -0800

Metafilter: [insert echolalia here]

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:25:29 -0800

"So bugger off, all you blow hards." A pre-emptive strike against the assumed haters? Hasn't been much abuse given here. (My copy of Emily skipped, weirdly.) I'm reserving comment until I've listened to all the songs, but the remix makes her sound like Macy Gray.

By: portisfreak

portisfreak — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:25:56 -0800

I want to marry her. I'm half serious.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:36:48 -0800

Eh, it's pretty, and one of the real strengths of this lo-fi recording, at least for me, is that it shows how well her voice matches with the songwriting without distracting me with the retarded Elvish tweeness of the lyrics. Like a soundtrack for people who think Tolkien is a good writer. But it did give me a new appreciation for listening to her, so it's not all bad.

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:37:28 -0800

I keep running into this with people-- anyone who thinks she sounds like Björk definitely hasn't listened to very much Björk... or probably very much Newsom either. Regardless, she's definitely not for everyone. Joanna Newsom started growing on me at first listen and then never stopped. I love that feeling you get when you hear music that seems like it will take too much work for you to get into, only to find yourself unable to get out later on. "Ys" was the best album I bought this year, or at least the one I've been most grateful to come home to after a bad day. And her show at Webster Hall was excellent: after a couple of warm-up songs, she said, "I have a new album out, and now we're going to play it from start to finish." And they did. And I wish more people would perform that way, because nothing primes you to cherish an album more than having heard and seen it performed with relish in real time. Here's an uncharacteristically readable review by the New Yorker of Ys and the Webster Hall show.

By: everichon

everichon — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:02:29 -0800

Great post. Her pre-Ys stuff grabbed me well enough, but Ys is ~~like~~ an ecstatic experience for me.

By: inoculatedcities

inoculatedcities — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:37:48 -0800

I'm disappointed by that Dave Eggers quote.

By: Afroblanco

Afroblanco — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:38:38 -0800

lumensimus : It's very rare for me to think that anything is worth rabid critical acclaim, so no, I can't say that I think of her as a magical mystery goddess or anything. I just like her music in a way that I didn't expect to, is all. It's not the sort of thing that I would put on if I had friends over or anything. It's good music to listen to when you're in a weird mood and aren't trying to be compatible with anybody. I've found that headphones are conducive.

By: Danf

Danf — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:46:48 -0800

The Eugene show on this tour was WAY oversold. We got there early and were able to sit on top of these little churchpew benches along the side, then the floor filled up and filled up and filled up some more until we were forced up the wall by the sheer volume of bodies. Very hot and steamy, but once she started playing, any discomfort went away. The sound that her band makes is just perfect. I can't listen to much of her, but that show was something special, and when she left the stage, she had to go out on exit door, since there was no room to walk back through the hall, and the moment she hit the outside air, one could see the steam rising off her body as she tried to fan and cool herself. Quite a memorable evening.

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:57:48 -0800

I clicked. It sounded EXACTLY like Bjorke playing a harp.

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:36:11 -0800

First of all, you can't spell Björk's name like that. You just can't. The vocal similarity begins and ends with their playful and sometimes childlike inflection, and that they both sing in voices that sound classically untrained. Which is deceptive in both cases, as they are each classically trained musicians. I've heard more comparisons of Newsom to Billie Holiday, which makes more sense to me. Newsom's voice and character are so much more unmistakeably American than Björk's, which is a significant difference. The dialects that creep into her singing are folksy and backwoods. If she and Björk both happen to sound like children at times, they definitely sound like two very different children, one of them freshly bathed and in nutty pajamas, the other in a sundress with scabby knees and twigs in her hair. Also, Newsom rarely opens up and sings out in full-voiced long notes like Björk does in almost all of her work. The real similarity is more in their songwriting than their voices. They both come up with lyrics secondarily, purely as a way of describing and accenting the meticulous construction of their melodies, hence the strange vocabularies they resort to. Newsom has claimed that she can't remember the lyrics to her songs unless she is physcially playing the music.

By: Flashman

Flashman — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:36:45 -0800

I loved Milk-Eyed Mender, and I love Ys too, but am I the only person who thinks slapping those syrupy Van Dyke Parks strings all over it was a huge mistake? Is Sawdust & Diamonds, the one song without orchestration, not the highlight of the album? The others, it sounds like my neighbour's blasting Lawrence Welk through the wall while I'm trying to listen to Joanna and her harp. Or listening to two radio signals at once -they seem entirely disconnected from each other. Anyway, I wish she'd realease a remix, without VDP's vandykelism.

By: Flashman

Flashman — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:41:19 -0800

Also, I think this was posted by somebody here at Metafilter before, but it's amazing - Owen Pallett covering Peach Plum Pear

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:51:05 -0800

Flashman, I halfway agree with you. I tried to play this album for someone after having described Newsom as a harpist, and they were nonplussed, complaining that they couldn't even hear the harping. On the third track, the one without the orchestrations, you really don't miss them at all-- she provides just as much intensity and musical variety on her own. However, without them I would miss the creepy music underscoring Bear's dancing for money, and the drums that jump in on "Monkey and Bear" and "Only Skin" (which during the live show were way louder and more exciting). I'd heard bootlegs before the album came out and already loved the song "Emily", but the song crescendoes a lot more effectively with the push of all those instruments (though elsewhere in the song they draw more focus than they deserve). Basically the orchestrations are fine with me as long as no one forgets that she doesn't really need them-- herself included. After a few spins of "Ys" it is so much easier to appreciate her earlier, simpler stuff, no matter how good the new album is.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:05:27 -0800

" is that it shows how well her voice matches with the songwriting without distracting me with the retarded Elvish tweeness of the lyrics. Like a soundtrack for people who think Tolkien is a good writer." Well she name checks Cair Paravel in Bridges and Balloons so I think there is more of a Narnia vibe going on, which is cool with me. And I completely understand that some people are put off by her voice, but I grew up with Mother Maybelle and June Carter Cash, so I hear more of that tradition in her voice than Bjork. And thanks Dobbs for the Bill Calahan info - I must now hunt him down and kill him. No one can have her but me! And matteo, you shrill little criticule, thanks for more wrong information.

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:50:28 -0800

Bill Callahan is great. "Rock Bottom Riser" is one of my favorite songs. I didn't know they were together, although that explains her adulation of him in her recent Wire interview.

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:56:13 -0800

I grew up with Mother Maybelle and June Carter Cash, so I hear more of that tradition in her voice than Bjork. There it is. Comparisons with Bjork are made by the lazy or ignorant. She is getting her vocal styling from the early weird Americana folk found in Anthology of American Folk Music and Folkways compilations. This isn't speculation, she has said so herself multiple times. Listen to those bizarre primal yawpings (especially some of the early Cajun zydeco singers) and her voice sounds positively ethereal in comparison. The Carter Family is both part of and influenced by that tradition, so I am not surprised people would draw that apt parallel.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:02:31 -0800

"Oh I'll twine with my mingles and waving black hair With the roses so red and the lilies so fair And the mirtles so bright with the emerald dew The pale and the leader and eyes look like blue" just picture Mother Maybelle strumming her autoharp and singing those perfect lyrics. Now dissolve her and transpose Joanna with her harp - see how easy that was.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:42:35 -0800

dobbs, Where did you hear she was dating Calahan? I saw him open for her (all his songs are lullabyes imo), and they didn't play anything together, and moreover she made a pretty romanticized dedication (Sawdust and Diamonds I think. Telling.) to someone named Ari.

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:45:30 -0800

The vocal similarity begins ~~and ends~~ with their INCREDIBLY FUCKING ANNOYING playful and ~~sometimes~~ GRATINGLY, SELF-CONSCIOUSLY, MANNERED childlike inflection, and that they both ~~sing in~~ HAVE voices that ~~sound classically untrained.~~ MAKE ME WANT TO STRANGLE KITTENS. Don't even get me started on the harp thing. PS Your favorite kookoo-bunny chantoosy sucks.

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:12:11 -0800

...GRATINGLY, SELF-CONSCIOUSLY, MANNERED childlike inflection... Actually, JN has said that she is kept so busy with the physical maneuvering of the harp that she's able to pay very little attention to her singing, hence the weirdness. I guess I'm just kookoo for kookoo-bunnies.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:17:28 -0800

unSane, you troll, you're either a philistine messiah or a special needs listener. In either case, you are in the minority. Oh, wait, you're a screenwriter. I'm a film theorist. Natural enemies.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:26:39 -0800

No, I'd wager that he's actually in the majority, it's just that most people haven't heard Newsom. And appealing to MetaCritic is both lame and inappropriate for arguments of taste.

By: Dantien

Dantien — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:53:49 -0800

I'm relieved to see so many other people are in love with Joanna like I am. She's a goddess. I'm also deeply angry so many other people are in love with Joanna like I am. Get away! She's mine! *sigh* Talented, pretty, smart....what more could you ask for? (and yeah, Bjork is pretty great too but they are so different. What's wrong with people's ears?!)

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:54:18 -0800

I'm not trolling, I'm just telling you how I feel. In either case, you are in the minority. Appealing to Metacritic best-of lists* is fraught with danger. Last year they had Anthony and the Fucking Johnsons "I'm A Chick Now" and this year that pub-rock abortion of a Dylan album made number three. Number Fucking Three. (throws up involuntarily in mouth) *which I consult religiously, of course

By: vronsky

vronsky — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:57:40 -0800

The op was supposed to fix those skips on Emily klang - I guess he never got around to it. Meant to add those lyrics were from "Wildwood Flower" by A. P. Carter

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:57:47 -0800

AND the Arctic Monkeys at 22. Oh, Lord.

By: nebulawindphone

nebulawindphone — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:40:03 -0800

While we're being assholes, I love "Wildwood Flower" as much as the next guy, but those lyrics? They were sappy to begin with, and by the recordings most of us know they've been mondegreened to the point of incoherence. Ooh baby. Twine those mingles. Aww yeah.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:54:07 -0800

I agree that the lyrics to that song can be problematic, but sappy? No, not sappy. How sad is it that the first google hit for "wildwood flower lyrics" is "Reese Witherspoon Lyrics"

By: nebulawindphone

nebulawindphone — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:57:59 -0800

Must be a sign of the apocalypse. Is it apocalypse season again already?

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:06:32 -0800

klangklangston, I certainly didn't mean to imply that metacritic was a bastion of taste, feh, but a list of opinion offerings written by people in response to having listened to her record. Of people who write published responses to her album (of which I am aware), his view is the minority. I confess that I don't know of a forum where Joe Blows go to review music. Is that on Yahoo? unsane, you know, you were hollering how you feel.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:26:53 -0800

"Must be a sign of the apocalypse. Is it apocalypse season again already?" Ah, now I see why you are known around here for your witty and playful banter. More please.

By: tehloki

tehloki — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:28:25 -0800

I loved joanna newsom until I was fiddling around with DJ on day and pitched-down her voice a few tones. That left a pretty awful taste in my ears, I'll tell ya.

By: unSane

unSane — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:01:00 -0800

unsane, you know, you were hollering how you feel. Uh, yeah, guilty, I know. Tough day. I've been hollering almost continuously. Bjorkesque harp chicks push my buttons.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:04:31 -0800

"I confess that I don't know of a forum where Joe Blows go to review music. Is that on Yahoo?" No, it's at cash registers. I love critics, I am a critic, I also recognize the shortcomings of critics and the peculiarity of their tastes. If you believed the MetaCritic of the age (which would likely have been Playboy's review section, as it was Christgau, Dave Marsh, and a handful of others of the same era), Warren Zevon would be the most popular artist of the early '80s. The term "critical darling" (which has been replaced by "media darling") was tailor-made for Newsome, and that's both OK and worth noting when attempting to provide a defense. It's music that makes smart people feel good about being smart, but to those of us who can delight in some dumb, it can get boring. And, frankly, that sort of condescending "Joe Blow" stuff makes it sound less like you're listening to the music than coming up with some sort of nerdly tribal allegiance. The best pop music, and Joanna is pop, can be both appreciated at a high level and by someone unsophisticated immedtiately. Which is why, if I might ramble, there's both this dichotomy in hipster circles between listening to literate indie rock and the poppest hip hop (and why there's more hip hop accomplishing a melding of high and low now than rock— like jazz lost to rock, rap has beaten rock).

By: dobbs

dobbs — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:07:34 -0800

Ambrosia, their dating is mentioned in this UnCut piece. Don't know when/where I head engagement. I'm a bit of a Callahan freak as he's long been among my favorite songwriters. As a result, most things I read about him stick even if I can't recall the source.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:59:13 -0800

" It's music that makes smart people feel good about being smart, but to those of us who can delight in some dumb, it can get boring. Not really fair klang. I've never read a Rolling Stone or a Spin in my life, and this thread is the first I had heard of metacritic. And enjoying the dumb? Billy Don't Be A hero came on the oldies station today and I almost had to pull my car over because I was welling up.

By: fisherKing

fisherKing — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:06:13 -0800

i also love the early stuff, but ys i found almost unlistenable. the orchestrations smother everything; first time i've ever used the term "cloying" for anything. i miss the simpiciity of the earlier stuff. still...ys has made some critics best of lists... either way, glad to see she inspires such passion (good or bad...)

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 11:33:09 -0800

Yeah, klangklangston, I am a snob; I own that. I enjoy something more once I can understand its thematic content and its stylisitic context. I enjoy reading good criticism. But I'm also a Joe Blow, which colloquially means a non-specialist right? A layman? I don't think of that as an insult, unless you think there's something wrong with being a part of the mainstream. I also don't equate discussing music with devoting dollars to it, so I can't grasp your checkout metaphor. Just because you're bored by literary folk or critical darlings doesn't mean others don't get into wildly eclectic music with equal vigor, not for the sake of hipness, Pop or not, with no regard for which dichotomies are working for "the hipster circles." I love Billy Joel and MSI and Eminem and it is just not cool. Lastly, Joanna Newsom is not pop. I just can't wrap my head around that one. That seems like making pop too large a tent. But obviously you're not speaking my language, because I have no clue what rap has beaten rock means. dobbs: thanks!

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:06:00 -0800

Let's move backwards: "Lastly, Joanna Newsom is not pop. I just can't wrap my head around that one. That seems like making pop too large a tent. But obviously you're not speaking my language, because I have no clue what rap has beaten rock means." Joanna Newsom IS pop, most definitely. Fer fucksake, Van Dyke Parks! She works in the pop idiom (specifically, the pseudo-psych twee pop idiom that's flourished over the last five years or so). I'll admit to some lack of clarity here, since pop means two things: the "not rock" that spun out primarily from the white '60s, and "popular." Rap is a pop genre, freak folk is not. But freak folk is a pop idiom. There isn't a good analogy in another medium, really, but think about Skyscraper and Blue Velvet both being different kinds of "pop" films. Joanna Newsom comes from a lineage of pop music, and should be evaluated in that context. She sings recognizable lyrics, she works (from what I've heard) primarily in major keys, her songs still follow the sectioning format of pop music (verse chorus verse), though it's important to note that pop is one of those Wittgensteinian rope words, like "game," where it's a predominance of sufficient qualities, rather than the insistance on necessary ones (and she very definitely does not conform to all of the conventions of, say, a Jan and Dean tune). But seriously, when you immediately apprehend her music, you can't see that it's apart from rock, rap, classical, jazz, samba, etc.? Pretending that she's not pop is bullshit from the giddyup. The "rap has beaten rock" was an aside, based on how rap is now the popular form, even while rock is still a pop form. Jazz and "classical" (generally now called something unweildy like "composed instrumental music" or some shit) have mutated as to both diverge significantly from popular consciousness and be significantly abstract that trying to deal with, say, some John Zorn abstract shit as if it's primarily pop doesn't make sense like it did with Swing, Swing, Swing. "Just because you're bored by literary folk or critical darlings doesn't mean others don't get into wildly eclectic music with equal vigor, not for the sake of hipness, Pop or not, with no regard for which dichotomies are working for "the hipster circles." I love Billy Joel and MSI and Eminem and it is just not cool." Oooh, you love token bands! Quit with the posturing about getting into wildly eclectic music— Joanna isn't that. Neither are the Decemberists, or the Arcade Fire, or Bonnie Prince Billy or the Silver Jews. Or Pavement for that matter. (I'll cop to having no idea who MSI is. Mission Super Impossible? Manson Sewer Insurgence? Master Snake's Interrogation?) And once again, you're the one who appealed to the idea of a majority/minority. Perhaps you were unfamiliar with the idea of a "critical darling"? Someone enjoyed by an insular world of critics regardless of broader merit? So, yeah, go on and like Newsom. That doesn't bother me. But both be honest with yourself (and others) about why you like her, and don't pretend that she has any more broad relevance to "the majority" than Hedwig and the Angry Inch. "Yeah, klangklangston, I am a snob; I own that. I enjoy something more once I can understand its thematic content and its stylisitic context." You say this as if your second sentence follows from the first. It doesn't. And that's why snobs are idiots. "I enjoy reading good criticism. But I'm also a Joe Blow, which colloquially means a non-specialist right? A layman? I don't think of that as an insult, unless you think there's something wrong with being a part of the mainstream." Oh, bullshit. "I confess that I don't know of a forum where Joe Blows go to review music. Is that on Yahoo?" On the subject of good criticism, go seek out Tolstoy's writings on the function of art. I don't agree in total with him, but his take on the formation of an inclusive aesthetic philosophy is worthwhile. "I also don't equate discussing music with devoting dollars to it, so I can't grasp your checkout metaphor." The purchase point is where we assess how many people liked something enough to pay for it. It's not necessarily a nuanced discussion, but pretending it doesn't exist is ivory tower mincing.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:12:54 -0800

That was so far beyond the pale. If you can't take what I say at face value and as genuine, I have no way nor reason to communicate with you. I'm not continuing this conversation because to do so would require too much self-defense and explication after your insults and presumtions to remain on topic at all. A sorry loss.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:15:12 -0800

Whatever, drama queen.

By: fake

fake — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:52:38 -0800

On the subject of good criticism, go seek out Tolstoy's writings on the function of art. I don't agree in total with him, but his take on the formation of an inclusive aesthetic philosophy is worthwhile. Um, I agree with most of what you've said, but this is just stupid. Tolstoy denounced his own work (Anna Karenina) and basically left room only for moralistic platitudes simplified to the lowest possible level of understanding. I doubt you think that's art, and it's hardly good philosophy.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:52:54 -0800

"Um, I agree with most of what you've said, but this is just stupid. Tolstoy denounced his own work (Anna Karenina) and basically left room only for moralistic platitudes simplified to the lowest possible level of understanding." I can't find the cite, mostly because I believe I sold those books back, but Tolstoy has a great essay on the role of paintings that a) doesn't lead to religious platitudes (if anything, it preceeds abstract expressionism), though he does emphasize Christian transcendence as the proper method of apprehending, and I'm not with him there. But I definitely think that it's a principled and reasonable defense of art appealing to the masses, and worth reading (especially for people who consider themselves snobs).

By: vronsky

vronsky — Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:46:26 -0800

Thanks for reducing me to a cultural stereotype klang. Nicely done!

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:20:01 -0800

What the hell are you on about now?

By: vronsky

vronsky — Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:58:00 -0800

Oh, I was about to take that argument apart point by point, but really, who cares. It's late. And I like you. You usually post interesting links and make well reasoned comments, and you defended me in one of my threads once, so let's just agree to disagree. Personally I find Joanna lyrically inventive, her harp playing hypnotic, and then there is the fact she gives me a boner. I think what got peoples hackles up is that you implied that we loved her just because she was a critical darling. Personally I despise Eggers, and he was her first champion, so in reality, his endorsement would make me run the other way. Pretty much everyone who posts at Moistworks is a published writer, including some big names like Lethem. I can't remember if that is where I first heard her, but if so, then I am guilty as charged.

By: vronsky

vronsky — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:00:20 -0800

Brian finally posted a clean copy of EMILY