"Awful Poo Lady" herself full of crap
February 18, 2007 12:24 PM Subscribe
Gillian McKeith banned from calling herself 'Dr'. Gillian McKeith, a "nutritionist" who has had several UK TV series, endless adverts for health supplements and sex pills, has for years used her title of Doctor to persuade people that she actually knows what she's talking about. Except now, thanks to the Advertising Standards Authority, she's no longer allowed to call herself a Doctor. I guess non-accredited correspondence-course PhDs and the membership of the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, something that a dead cat can be a member of for the princely sum of $60, doesn't actually mean much after all.
I have nothing to declare but my loathing for Gillian McKeith.
posted by athenian at 12:51 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by athenian at 12:51 PM on February 18, 2007
Excellent news. I thought it was hilarious that, when this was announced the other week, not only did 'Dr.' McKeith fail to appear on the Today programme to defend herself, she sent Max Clifford to argue her case. Yeah, that'll really boost your credibility, Gillian.
posted by jack_mo at 12:52 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by jack_mo at 12:52 PM on February 18, 2007
"She graduated from the University of Edinburgh and received her Masters Degree from the Ivy-League University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia...."
I love how she adds the 'the Ivy-League.'
posted by ericb at 12:56 PM on February 18, 2007
I love how she adds the 'the Ivy-League.'
posted by ericb at 12:56 PM on February 18, 2007
You can have my non-accredited correspondence course PhD when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!
posted by Flunkie at 1:10 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by Flunkie at 1:10 PM on February 18, 2007
You can have my membership in the American Association of Nutritional Consultants when you pry it from my cold, dead cat!
posted by now i'm piste at 1:16 PM on February 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by now i'm piste at 1:16 PM on February 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
Huh. Her TV show is one here on some cable channel, and I've watched a few minutes of it from time to time. Her grim-faced self-righteous wrath-of-judgement aspect put me off every time. The yelling, the finger pointing, the shaming. Ugh.
It really doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you start eating salads instead of takeaways that you're going to be healthier, but I didn't realize that she was making all sorts of other idiotic claims. What's all this about cholorphyll and the nerve endings in your heart? WTF?
posted by jokeefe at 1:19 PM on February 18, 2007
It really doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you start eating salads instead of takeaways that you're going to be healthier, but I didn't realize that she was making all sorts of other idiotic claims. What's all this about cholorphyll and the nerve endings in your heart? WTF?
posted by jokeefe at 1:19 PM on February 18, 2007
Is she the one who touched people's poos and then said; "just look at your poo, it's the wrong shape and can you smell how bad it is?!"
Of course it won't be pleasant. It's a poo.
posted by cardamine at 1:27 PM on February 18, 2007
Of course it won't be pleasant. It's a poo.
posted by cardamine at 1:27 PM on February 18, 2007
I'm so sorry, but I can't resist...
Metafilter: Of course it won't be pleasant. It's a poo.
posted by synaesthetichaze at 1:29 PM on February 18, 2007
Metafilter: Of course it won't be pleasant. It's a poo.
posted by synaesthetichaze at 1:29 PM on February 18, 2007
Yep, she examines the poo. I saw a clip of her standing outside a toilet, whilst some poor sap was still inside, going "I can smell that from out here, that smells disgusting". Her shit apparently doesn't stink.
posted by TheDonF at 1:31 PM on February 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by TheDonF at 1:31 PM on February 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
Related:
I've always been disturbed that although there are well-demonstrated and documented links between nutrition and health, most medical schools do not require that med students study much if anything about nutrtion. I couldn't find a link to the study, but this bookreferences a study showing that nutritional education at med schools is inadequite.
I'm working towards nursing school right now, and the nursing school I'm looking at only requires a couple units on nutrition.
So in summery, having an MD after your name does not necissarily corrilate with knowledge on this topic. (although presumably a doctor would have some understanding of the overall physiologicial theory underlying nutrition recommendations).
posted by serazin at 1:31 PM on February 18, 2007
I've always been disturbed that although there are well-demonstrated and documented links between nutrition and health, most medical schools do not require that med students study much if anything about nutrtion. I couldn't find a link to the study, but this bookreferences a study showing that nutritional education at med schools is inadequite.
I'm working towards nursing school right now, and the nursing school I'm looking at only requires a couple units on nutrition.
So in summery, having an MD after your name does not necissarily corrilate with knowledge on this topic. (although presumably a doctor would have some understanding of the overall physiologicial theory underlying nutrition recommendations).
posted by serazin at 1:31 PM on February 18, 2007
Oh, wow. I've been taping "You Are What You Eat" lately, trying to get motivated to eat better and exercise and cut out the awful stuff from my diet. I take the television show with a grain of salt (eek! salt!) due to the colonics and some of the 'diagnosis by tongue' but looking at the week's meals laid out like that compared to the beautiful, colourful, fruit-and-veg plan is inspiring.
So just yesterday, I wondered if she had a book out, so I checked. Yes, book. Cool, I'll order it. Website? Ah, yes. Let's have a look, shall we...
Needless to say, I haven't ordered the book. What I thought might be a bit of quackery mixed up with all the sound nutritional advice looked like a lot more on her website. I think it was the sea algae miracle food, of something, that made me close the window with a sigh. A disappointed sigh.
posted by Savannah at 1:34 PM on February 18, 2007
So just yesterday, I wondered if she had a book out, so I checked. Yes, book. Cool, I'll order it. Website? Ah, yes. Let's have a look, shall we...
Needless to say, I haven't ordered the book. What I thought might be a bit of quackery mixed up with all the sound nutritional advice looked like a lot more on her website. I think it was the sea algae miracle food, of something, that made me close the window with a sigh. A disappointed sigh.
posted by Savannah at 1:34 PM on February 18, 2007
I saw a clip of her standing outside a toilet, whilst some poor sap was still inside
If she was stood outside the door, i wouldn't be able to go...
posted by cardamine at 1:34 PM on February 18, 2007
If she was stood outside the door, i wouldn't be able to go...
posted by cardamine at 1:34 PM on February 18, 2007
Can somebody hand out the same treatment to that banal fraud who thinks that planets ought to have sex...whatsisname? ah - "Dr" John Gray, "PhD".
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:37 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:37 PM on February 18, 2007
It seems like a mix of nutritional science and over-the-top claims combined with televangelism instincts. I haven't been following her but does she do more good than harm or more harm than good?
I ask because some of her recommendations seems to make sense, while some of it appears to be quackery but of the harmless type.
posted by bhouston at 1:42 PM on February 18, 2007
I ask because some of her recommendations seems to make sense, while some of it appears to be quackery but of the harmless type.
posted by bhouston at 1:42 PM on February 18, 2007
Fake-scientists like this make me wish there was a hell. Fates like this (adapted from The Beast's most loathesome) come to mind:
Lips sewn to a rubber hose connecting her to a 500 gallon nutrition shake. Nursed back to health. Fed her own sex pillls, fucked till-near death with large papier-mache dildo made out of the daily mail's health section alternating with being fucked by an actual horny goat. Nursed back to health. Made to gargle her own sweet, cancer free poo until she almost chokes. Nursed back to health. Shown the depleted bank balances, reduced IQ's and shortnened, enmiserated lives of all the people she's conned, as she is slowly rotated in a vat of chlorophyll-tonic water. Nursed back to health. Fitted with earphones that play only recordings of the great minds of science and culture, and left alone to think about what she has done.
posted by lalochezia at 1:45 PM on February 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
Lips sewn to a rubber hose connecting her to a 500 gallon nutrition shake. Nursed back to health. Fed her own sex pillls, fucked till-near death with large papier-mache dildo made out of the daily mail's health section alternating with being fucked by an actual horny goat. Nursed back to health. Made to gargle her own sweet, cancer free poo until she almost chokes. Nursed back to health. Shown the depleted bank balances, reduced IQ's and shortnened, enmiserated lives of all the people she's conned, as she is slowly rotated in a vat of chlorophyll-tonic water. Nursed back to health. Fitted with earphones that play only recordings of the great minds of science and culture, and left alone to think about what she has done.
posted by lalochezia at 1:45 PM on February 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
I can't find it now, but someone once summed up her whole shtick as (badly paraphrased) "Small Scottish woman chases fat people with box of poo, makes them cry."
(And, yeah, given some of our classic threads: "Metafilter: chases fat people with box of poo, makes them cry.")
posted by maudlin at 1:46 PM on February 18, 2007
(And, yeah, given some of our classic threads: "Metafilter: chases fat people with box of poo, makes them cry.")
posted by maudlin at 1:46 PM on February 18, 2007
The reason nothing much is taught in medical school about the "science" of nutrition is because there's very little science to it.
This is why we have the hot new vegetable, fruit or supplement of the month-- followed by the data showing it actually doesn't live up to the miracle claims.
Eventually, we'll figure out something more precise and individualized than "everything in moderation" and fruits and vegetables are good for you and fish is brain food-- but for now, that's about the sum of it.
posted by Maias at 2:17 PM on February 18, 2007
imperium: yes, in contrast to his namesake, the John Gray with the real qualifications is a stunning & challenging thinker. Coincidentally, his *Straw Dogs* is in front of me right now.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:25 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:25 PM on February 18, 2007
This page demonstrates some shameful misquotation on McKeith's part and also includes a rather irreverant parody of a popular song. I hope it aids the discussion.
posted by welephant at 2:27 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by welephant at 2:27 PM on February 18, 2007
"She graduated from the University of Edinburgh and received her Masters Degree from the Ivy-League University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia...."
Hey, she might not be a doctor, but she's qualified for all your International Relations needs!
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 2:41 PM on February 18, 2007
Has something happened to the UK recently? A lot of the recent news has been about fake science, violence, economic decline, and a widening split between the rich and poor.
posted by niccolo at 2:54 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by niccolo at 2:54 PM on February 18, 2007
One of the advertisements in my paper today loudly proclaimed "Man Believes His Cancer Cured By Phytoplankton!" or some such bullshit.
The people who push this shit should be shot dead. They harm our society.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:58 PM on February 18, 2007
The people who push this shit should be shot dead. They harm our society.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:58 PM on February 18, 2007
I keed. I play a high RWA character on occasion.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:06 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by five fresh fish at 3:06 PM on February 18, 2007
Has something happened to the UK recently?
It really isn't a good place to live any more and it's continuing to decline at a rapid rate. If I could afford to emigrate, I very probably would.
posted by TheDonF at 3:07 PM on February 18, 2007
It really isn't a good place to live any more and it's continuing to decline at a rapid rate. If I could afford to emigrate, I very probably would.
posted by TheDonF at 3:07 PM on February 18, 2007
As long as I can keep calling myself Captain Longdong, this news is fine with me.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:08 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:08 PM on February 18, 2007
Has something happened to the UK recently?
The long dark night of Blairism is almost over. The medium dark night of Cameronism is imminent, with only the shortest of Brownian nights likely to intercede.
I'm not sure that explains the good "doctor", though.
UbuRoivas, I was trawling through Heresies when this thread popped up to distract me...
posted by imperium at 3:28 PM on February 18, 2007
The long dark night of Blairism is almost over. The medium dark night of Cameronism is imminent, with only the shortest of Brownian nights likely to intercede.
I'm not sure that explains the good "doctor", though.
UbuRoivas, I was trawling through Heresies when this thread popped up to distract me...
posted by imperium at 3:28 PM on February 18, 2007
You know which Dr Prof PhD Nutritionist I really love and I couldn't care less if he's a fake? The one that recommends Nutella for a healthy breakfast. My only complaint is he doesn't also recommend it as a healthy midnight snack, hangover cure, and toothpaste substitute.
posted by pleeker at 3:29 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by pleeker at 3:29 PM on February 18, 2007
Yep, she examines the poo. I saw a clip of her standing outside a toilet, whilst some poor sap was still inside, going "I can smell that from out here, that smells disgusting".
Paging Dr. Freud . . .
Paging Dr. Freud . . .
posted by jason's_planet at 3:57 PM on February 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Paging Dr. Freud . . .
Paging Dr. Freud . . .
posted by jason's_planet at 3:57 PM on February 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
But if your poo doesn't smell bad, it means the BAD STUFF IS STAYING INSIDE YOU!!!
<oh>the horror</oh>
posted by hexatron at 4:41 PM on February 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
<oh>the horror</oh>
posted by hexatron at 4:41 PM on February 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Then I must have the cleanest colon in the world...
posted by Samizdata at 4:46 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by Samizdata at 4:46 PM on February 18, 2007
I showed this story to a British friend of mine, who told me "when she does her crappy TV show, she makes people shit in a box so she can study it," and then he linked me to Bristol Stool Scale and I SHALL NEVER FORGIVE HIM!!!
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 5:57 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 5:57 PM on February 18, 2007
So in summery, having an MD after your name does not necissarily corrilate with knowledge on this topic . . . posted by serazin
It can't hurt. What kind of degree did you say you were getting?
People who live in glass houses and all that . . . .
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:25 PM on February 18, 2007
It can't hurt. What kind of degree did you say you were getting?
People who live in glass houses and all that . . . .
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:25 PM on February 18, 2007
And by the way, "Dr." Hulda Clark is still out there, claiming she can cure cancer and AIDS with an electrical zapper and an intestinal cleanse at her Mexican clinic. She is also, indeed, a "graduate" of the "Clayton College" of Natural Medicine, which has a very sordid history.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:27 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:27 PM on February 18, 2007
Clayton College of Natural Medicine?!?!? ROFLMAO
Claytons (slang, adj): Substitute, alternative, fake.
From a famous advertising campaign downunder for a range of mock-alcoholic drinks: "the drink you have when you're not having a drink". 'Clayton' or 'Claytons' is now applied to just about anything pissweak or otherwise ersatz, eg "Aussie Rules football is a Claytons sport".
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:06 PM on February 18, 2007
Claytons (slang, adj): Substitute, alternative, fake.
From a famous advertising campaign downunder for a range of mock-alcoholic drinks: "the drink you have when you're not having a drink". 'Clayton' or 'Claytons' is now applied to just about anything pissweak or otherwise ersatz, eg "Aussie Rules football is a Claytons sport".
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:06 PM on February 18, 2007
Well, we have "Dr." Laura here in the US, and she's as much of a doctor as I am (hint : I work in a grocery store).
posted by newfers at 7:47 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by newfers at 7:47 PM on February 18, 2007
But aren't all grocery store workers in the US required to do a PhD-level course in mushroom identification?
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:46 PM on February 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:46 PM on February 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
o in summery, having an MD after your name does not necissarily corrilate with knowledge on this topic.
But being a "nutritionist" means less. All you need to be a "nutritionist" is $60.
posted by watsondog at 9:59 PM on February 18, 2007
But being a "nutritionist" means less. All you need to be a "nutritionist" is $60.
posted by watsondog at 9:59 PM on February 18, 2007
Personally I'm a bit suspicious of that doctor guy who shows up on Oprah wearing srcubs. WTF? NAyone that desperate to prove that their a real doctor is up to something.
posted by Artw at 10:03 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by Artw at 10:03 PM on February 18, 2007
I agree with the "nutritionist" statement as well. Honestly, there are a lot of titles which are pure baloney. Here are a few examples :
astrologer, psychic, chiropractor, tv preacher
Damn, before I started typing, I was sure I could come up with 20 examples, but it's late, and I give up.
posted by newfers at 11:07 PM on February 18, 2007
astrologer, psychic, chiropractor, tv preacher
Damn, before I started typing, I was sure I could come up with 20 examples, but it's late, and I give up.
posted by newfers at 11:07 PM on February 18, 2007
This Gillian person seems indeed way too much like a tv preacher for my tastes, but I do not agree with the Goldacre piece at all. This has nothing to do with cargo cults. McKeith does recommend a reasonably healthy diet. It's just that she gets the reasons why it is healthy wrong. She is close though. Chlorophyll is one of the reasons why leafy greens are so good for you (example). This has nothing to do with oxygen though. It also probably does not mean that a chlorophyll supplement is just as helpful. You should really just eat your greens.
The reason nothing much is taught in medical school about the "science" of nutrition is because there's very little science to it.
That's not true. Nutrition is a real science and it is a great shame that doctors know so little about it (my doctor told me, for example, that breastmilk loses all nutrients after six months and that I could just as well give my daughter plain water). Eating well does prevent many diseases. I disagree about this with Goldacre as well. He states that in studies it show that eating well only makes a very small difference. It makes a big difference what you study though. Many nutrition studies focus on one small thing that makes a small or no difference, but if you add up all those things, they do make a big difference. And no, it is not about the health food of the month, and most definitely not about specific components of health foods that you can put into pills, but it is about eating a healthy diet (lots of veggies, no refined foods, you know the drill). Wonderfoods do have their place though. I am not going to eat goji berries (they are too expensive - I'd rather spend my money on healthier normal food), but if I had prostate cancer I would eat pomegranates because the research so far is quite compelling.
posted by davar at 2:23 AM on February 19, 2007
The reason nothing much is taught in medical school about the "science" of nutrition is because there's very little science to it.
That's not true. Nutrition is a real science and it is a great shame that doctors know so little about it (my doctor told me, for example, that breastmilk loses all nutrients after six months and that I could just as well give my daughter plain water). Eating well does prevent many diseases. I disagree about this with Goldacre as well. He states that in studies it show that eating well only makes a very small difference. It makes a big difference what you study though. Many nutrition studies focus on one small thing that makes a small or no difference, but if you add up all those things, they do make a big difference. And no, it is not about the health food of the month, and most definitely not about specific components of health foods that you can put into pills, but it is about eating a healthy diet (lots of veggies, no refined foods, you know the drill). Wonderfoods do have their place though. I am not going to eat goji berries (they are too expensive - I'd rather spend my money on healthier normal food), but if I had prostate cancer I would eat pomegranates because the research so far is quite compelling.
posted by davar at 2:23 AM on February 19, 2007
All TV doctors should be replaced with the one true TV doctor: Dr. Alice Roberts.
posted by veedubya at 3:14 AM on February 19, 2007
posted by veedubya at 3:14 AM on February 19, 2007
astrologer, psychic, chiropractor, tv preacher
You forgot "president."
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:09 AM on February 19, 2007
You forgot "president."
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:09 AM on February 19, 2007
Every regulat doctor I've ever talked with about the subject knew more about nutrition than every so-called "expert" on "nutrition." Period. Once I asked a reasonably famous (from TV) nutrition evangelist if he could tell me what the Krebs cycle was. Blank stare.
If you can't tell me what the Krebs cycle is, why the hell should I believe you about taking 100 times the RDA of, let's say, vitamin C? Nutrition is indeed taught in medical school, under the headings like "metabolism," "digestion, " and "vitamin deficiency."
95 percent, if not more, of the crap sold in "health food stores" is inert at best, dangerous at worst, and a total ripoff. The "doctors" (and this includes some real MDs, actually, like Weil and Chopra, as well as the frauds like Clark and the Poo Lady) who peddle this quackery are criminal conmen, trading on the good name scientific medicine has earned for itself by . . get this ... playing a major role in doubling the human life span and cutting infant and maternal mortality by 95 percent in 100 years and eliminating several epidemic diseases along the way.
Minor accomplishments, summoned by the use of the legally precise title "doctor."
And by the way, PhDs who use the title "doctor" to imply to the gullible that they are MDs (like "Dr." Laura or "Dr." Phil) are not much better. Most PhDs, other than clinical psychologists working in clinical settings among MDs, do not use the title "Dr." as a general rule.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:32 AM on February 19, 2007
If you can't tell me what the Krebs cycle is, why the hell should I believe you about taking 100 times the RDA of, let's say, vitamin C? Nutrition is indeed taught in medical school, under the headings like "metabolism," "digestion, " and "vitamin deficiency."
95 percent, if not more, of the crap sold in "health food stores" is inert at best, dangerous at worst, and a total ripoff. The "doctors" (and this includes some real MDs, actually, like Weil and Chopra, as well as the frauds like Clark and the Poo Lady) who peddle this quackery are criminal conmen, trading on the good name scientific medicine has earned for itself by . . get this ... playing a major role in doubling the human life span and cutting infant and maternal mortality by 95 percent in 100 years and eliminating several epidemic diseases along the way.
Minor accomplishments, summoned by the use of the legally precise title "doctor."
And by the way, PhDs who use the title "doctor" to imply to the gullible that they are MDs (like "Dr." Laura or "Dr." Phil) are not much better. Most PhDs, other than clinical psychologists working in clinical settings among MDs, do not use the title "Dr." as a general rule.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:32 AM on February 19, 2007
I do not agree with the Goldacre piece at all ... McKeith does recommend a reasonably healthy diet. It's just that she gets the reasons why it is healthy wrong.
davar, Goldacre's problem with this woman is that she devalues real science by peddling nonsense that is convincing enough to be believed by a population who are themselves sorely in need of a good understanding of science. There are pages and pages of good science showing the value of a healthy diet, and to use your example, showing us that eating your greens is associated with good health outcomes. Isn't that enough?
Legitimate science involves the energies of countless hardworking, talented individuals who give years of their lives towards defining the line between what is real and what is not. McKeith and all of the other bottom-feeder "science televangelists" make their livings by blurring this line and profiting in credibility, fame, and fortune from the confusion that results. Meanwhile the general public take one step deeper into fantasy land.
As long as there's an authority to tell them what to do so they don't have to figure it out for themselves, the truth can take another one for the team, right?
posted by teem at 6:11 AM on February 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
davar, Goldacre's problem with this woman is that she devalues real science by peddling nonsense that is convincing enough to be believed by a population who are themselves sorely in need of a good understanding of science. There are pages and pages of good science showing the value of a healthy diet, and to use your example, showing us that eating your greens is associated with good health outcomes. Isn't that enough?
Legitimate science involves the energies of countless hardworking, talented individuals who give years of their lives towards defining the line between what is real and what is not. McKeith and all of the other bottom-feeder "science televangelists" make their livings by blurring this line and profiting in credibility, fame, and fortune from the confusion that results. Meanwhile the general public take one step deeper into fantasy land.
As long as there's an authority to tell them what to do so they don't have to figure it out for themselves, the truth can take another one for the team, right?
posted by teem at 6:11 AM on February 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
But being a "nutritionist" means less. All you need to be a "nutritionist" is $60.
Related...
"The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Wednesday February 14 2007
We were wrong to refer to Gillian McKeith as a dietician in the headline above ['TV dietician to stop using title Dr in adverts'] - a mistake on our part. There was no suggestion in the text that Ms McKeith had used the description. In Britain dietitians (the spelling they prefer) are registered, and regulated under the Health Professions Order 2001."
posted by ericb at 7:17 AM on February 19, 2007
Related...
"The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Wednesday February 14 2007
We were wrong to refer to Gillian McKeith as a dietician in the headline above ['TV dietician to stop using title Dr in adverts'] - a mistake on our part. There was no suggestion in the text that Ms McKeith had used the description. In Britain dietitians (the spelling they prefer) are registered, and regulated under the Health Professions Order 2001."
posted by ericb at 7:17 AM on February 19, 2007
All TV doctors should be replaced with the one true TV doctor: Dr. Alice Roberts.
I think you'll find her correct title is the somewhat dreamy Dr Alice Roberts.
posted by cillit bang at 7:28 AM on February 19, 2007
I think you'll find her correct title is the somewhat dreamy Dr Alice Roberts.
posted by cillit bang at 7:28 AM on February 19, 2007
Well, we have "Dr." Laura here in the US, and she's as much of a doctor as I am (hint : I work in a grocery store).
You have a PhD and you work in a grocery? The economy has clearly become worse than I thought. (Schlessinger's use of the title may be misleading to some, but the woman does actually have a doctorate degree.)
posted by Dreama at 7:50 AM on February 19, 2007
You have a PhD and you work in a grocery? The economy has clearly become worse than I thought. (Schlessinger's use of the title may be misleading to some, but the woman does actually have a doctorate degree.)
posted by Dreama at 7:50 AM on February 19, 2007
There are pages and pages of good science showing the value of a healthy diet, and to use your example, showing us that eating your greens is associated with good health outcomes. Isn't that enough?
I agree, it is. My problem with Goldacre's piece is where he says:
How can I be sure that this phenomenal difference in life expectancy between rich and poor isn’t due to the difference in diet? Because I’ve read the dietary intervention studies: when you intervene and make a huge effort to change people’s diets, and get them eating more fruit and veg, you find the benefits, where they are positive at all, are actually very modest. Nothing like 10 years.
That is either dishonest, or bad science. Goldacre does not mention (or not understand) what exactly changed in the diets of those people. Dietary intervention studies are one type of useful studies, but certainly not the only type. It is really very hard to get large groups of people to eat radically different without huge intrinsic motivation, so those dietary interventions only succeed to a very minimal extent. They get people to eat a little less cookies, they substitute one margarine for another, or add a few ounces of fruits and vegetables. Of course the outcomes are modest in such studies. But that has nothing, nothing at all to do with the question of whether eating really well can have a big impact on your life. Most people are not willing to go on a drastic diet, but it is absolutely clear that people who radically improve their diet can have substantial health benefits.
Here is what Walter Willett (Harvard professor) has to say about it:
The potential impact of healthy diet, when you combine it with not smoking and regular physical activity, is enormous. For example, our studies have shown that we could prevent about 82 percent of heart attacks, about 70 percent of strokes, over 90 percent of type 2 diabetes, and over 70 percent of colon cancer, with the right dietary choices as part of a health lifestyle. The best drugs can reduce heart attacks by about 20 or 30 percent, yet we put almost all of our resources into promoting drugs rather than healthy lifestyle and nutrition.
posted by davar at 9:12 AM on February 19, 2007
I agree, it is. My problem with Goldacre's piece is where he says:
How can I be sure that this phenomenal difference in life expectancy between rich and poor isn’t due to the difference in diet? Because I’ve read the dietary intervention studies: when you intervene and make a huge effort to change people’s diets, and get them eating more fruit and veg, you find the benefits, where they are positive at all, are actually very modest. Nothing like 10 years.
That is either dishonest, or bad science. Goldacre does not mention (or not understand) what exactly changed in the diets of those people. Dietary intervention studies are one type of useful studies, but certainly not the only type. It is really very hard to get large groups of people to eat radically different without huge intrinsic motivation, so those dietary interventions only succeed to a very minimal extent. They get people to eat a little less cookies, they substitute one margarine for another, or add a few ounces of fruits and vegetables. Of course the outcomes are modest in such studies. But that has nothing, nothing at all to do with the question of whether eating really well can have a big impact on your life. Most people are not willing to go on a drastic diet, but it is absolutely clear that people who radically improve their diet can have substantial health benefits.
Here is what Walter Willett (Harvard professor) has to say about it:
The potential impact of healthy diet, when you combine it with not smoking and regular physical activity, is enormous. For example, our studies have shown that we could prevent about 82 percent of heart attacks, about 70 percent of strokes, over 90 percent of type 2 diabetes, and over 70 percent of colon cancer, with the right dietary choices as part of a health lifestyle. The best drugs can reduce heart attacks by about 20 or 30 percent, yet we put almost all of our resources into promoting drugs rather than healthy lifestyle and nutrition.
posted by davar at 9:12 AM on February 19, 2007
Drugs are easier and someone else pays the cost. Diets and exercise is hard and you pay the cost, in money, sweat and in the palate. Willet's right though for the thinking person.
posted by caddis at 10:00 AM on February 19, 2007
posted by caddis at 10:00 AM on February 19, 2007
Willett may be right, but so far, no one's been able to replicate such dramatic results, which come from his and others observational epidemiology, in controlled trials. Most nutritional intervention studies have been disappointments: MRFIT, Polyp Prevention Trial, Polyp Prevention Study Group, etc. Some show modest effects at best (10-15%, e.g.), others, nada.
Meanwhile, eat right; you'll feel better.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:44 AM on February 19, 2007
Meanwhile, eat right; you'll feel better.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:44 AM on February 19, 2007
McKeith does recommend a reasonably healthy diet. It's just that she gets the reasons why it is healthy wrong.
For the tv show, they always seemed to pick extreme cases of people who were very fat and with related cholesterol/high pressure whatever problems and never did any exercise whatsoever, they sent in the Poo Lady to tell them to give up on their daily fry-ups and mars bars (fried mars bars! you gotta love the Scots) and 15 liters of cola, and to lift their behind from the couch a bit more often and maybe walk the dog a bit more often, and voilà! magic! they lose some weight after a few weeks! Unbelievable isn't it? Surely it's all down to her amazing nutritional knowledge and powers of persuasion?
They could have gotten basic, normal, sane diet & exercise recommendations from their GP to achieve the very same effect. Hell, they could have got there all on their own. But they wouldn't have gone on tv that way. And she wouldn't have been paid for it. So it's not just about her preposterous pseudo-scientific claims about the magic of her favourite special foods and poo divination. It's the whole celebrity-nutritionist reality-tv approach to health, it's entertainment being smuggled as medical advice. I'm not sure it does more good than harm really.
posted by pleeker at 1:35 PM on February 19, 2007
For the tv show, they always seemed to pick extreme cases of people who were very fat and with related cholesterol/high pressure whatever problems and never did any exercise whatsoever, they sent in the Poo Lady to tell them to give up on their daily fry-ups and mars bars (fried mars bars! you gotta love the Scots) and 15 liters of cola, and to lift their behind from the couch a bit more often and maybe walk the dog a bit more often, and voilà! magic! they lose some weight after a few weeks! Unbelievable isn't it? Surely it's all down to her amazing nutritional knowledge and powers of persuasion?
They could have gotten basic, normal, sane diet & exercise recommendations from their GP to achieve the very same effect. Hell, they could have got there all on their own. But they wouldn't have gone on tv that way. And she wouldn't have been paid for it. So it's not just about her preposterous pseudo-scientific claims about the magic of her favourite special foods and poo divination. It's the whole celebrity-nutritionist reality-tv approach to health, it's entertainment being smuggled as medical advice. I'm not sure it does more good than harm really.
posted by pleeker at 1:35 PM on February 19, 2007
Most PhDs, other than clinical psychologists working in clinical settings among MDs, do not use the title "Dr." as a general rule.
I dunno about that. In academic settings, it is quite normal for PhDs to use the title "Dr" (as opposed to Professor, for example). Indeed, it seems quite inappropriate for mere Bachelors of Medicine or Surgery to claim the right to use an appellation that properly belongs only to those who have completed a real Doctorate.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:31 PM on February 19, 2007
I dunno about that. In academic settings, it is quite normal for PhDs to use the title "Dr" (as opposed to Professor, for example). Indeed, it seems quite inappropriate for mere Bachelors of Medicine or Surgery to claim the right to use an appellation that properly belongs only to those who have completed a real Doctorate.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:31 PM on February 19, 2007
... In Britain dietitians (the spelling they prefer) are registered, and regulated under the Health Professions Order 2001 ...
In the US, dietitians are registered and regulated as well. My wife is a registered dietitian, a title that comes after an accredited degree, internships, exam, and extensive continuing education. RDs are essential at hospitals, clinics, and dialysis centers -- not just health clubs. Their extreme specialization means they usually know significantly more about nutrition than most MDs.
Nutrition is a subject everyone thinks they are an expert in. Few realize the extent of the training an RD has to endure. I haven't met an RD yet who doesn't cringe at the mention of "nutritionists" who frequently give advice that contradicts that of legitimate RDs, undermining their credibility when they have to tell a patient something they don't want to hear.
posted by phrenq at 2:52 PM on February 19, 2007
In the US, dietitians are registered and regulated as well. My wife is a registered dietitian, a title that comes after an accredited degree, internships, exam, and extensive continuing education. RDs are essential at hospitals, clinics, and dialysis centers -- not just health clubs. Their extreme specialization means they usually know significantly more about nutrition than most MDs.
Nutrition is a subject everyone thinks they are an expert in. Few realize the extent of the training an RD has to endure. I haven't met an RD yet who doesn't cringe at the mention of "nutritionists" who frequently give advice that contradicts that of legitimate RDs, undermining their credibility when they have to tell a patient something they don't want to hear.
posted by phrenq at 2:52 PM on February 19, 2007
In academic settings, it is quite normal for PhDs to use the title "Dr" (as opposed to Professor, for example).
Sorry, but no. The title Dr. comes with the degree, but the title professor must be earned by scholarly activity, teaching and service, usually over a decade or more. Hence the encomium in German "Herr Professor Doktor."
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:38 PM on February 19, 2007
Sorry, but no. The title Dr. comes with the degree, but the title professor must be earned by scholarly activity, teaching and service, usually over a decade or more. Hence the encomium in German "Herr Professor Doktor."
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:38 PM on February 19, 2007
p.s. MD degrees in the US are equivalent to MBs in the Commonwealth, that is, they are baccalaureate degrees, just like a BS or BA. Here in the States, they decided that they were better than that, so they decided to call themselves "Doctors" like the highly respected medical experts back in Europe. Those highly respected experts, of course, had PhDs in their subject areas, and so had earned the title. Not so the physicians. Now pharmacists, dentists, veterinarians, and even lawyers are claiming to be "doctors," simply by waving their magic wand. No dissertation, no original thought, no deep knowledge, just a few more classes and you can get your "doctorate," too.
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:43 PM on February 19, 2007
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:43 PM on February 19, 2007
The title Dr. comes with the degree, but the title professor must be earned by scholarly activity, teaching and service, usually over a decade or more.
I never stated or implied otherwise. Perhaps better put, Professors distinguish themselves from mere Doctors with an even fancier title.
An interesting aside: I hear that in Italy, Bachelors are commonly referred to as Il Dottore (spelling?), a reflection of the fact that there, apparently, either now or in the past, to earn one's baccalaureate required an original dissertation not unlike a true Doctorate.
Veterinarians, Pharmacists & Dentists calling themselves "Doctor" can go to the hell reserved for the pathetically pretentious, as far as I am concerned, even more so than MB/BSs. And why lawyers would use the inferior "doctor" is beyond me, when we have far more pompous designations at our disposal, like Barrister-at-Law, Queen's Counsel and so on.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:55 PM on February 19, 2007
I never stated or implied otherwise. Perhaps better put, Professors distinguish themselves from mere Doctors with an even fancier title.
An interesting aside: I hear that in Italy, Bachelors are commonly referred to as Il Dottore (spelling?), a reflection of the fact that there, apparently, either now or in the past, to earn one's baccalaureate required an original dissertation not unlike a true Doctorate.
Veterinarians, Pharmacists & Dentists calling themselves "Doctor" can go to the hell reserved for the pathetically pretentious, as far as I am concerned, even more so than MB/BSs. And why lawyers would use the inferior "doctor" is beyond me, when we have far more pompous designations at our disposal, like Barrister-at-Law, Queen's Counsel and so on.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:55 PM on February 19, 2007
I hear that in Italy, Bachelors are commonly referred to as Il Dottore (spelling?), a reflection of the fact that there, apparently, either now or in the past, to earn one's baccalaureate required an original dissertation
Didn't know that. Some baccalaureate programs here in the States also require a "senior paper" that functions as a thesis, as do MS and MA programs. Not quite the same, though, as the original, significant research required by a dissertation.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:35 PM on February 19, 2007
Didn't know that. Some baccalaureate programs here in the States also require a "senior paper" that functions as a thesis, as do MS and MA programs. Not quite the same, though, as the original, significant research required by a dissertation.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:35 PM on February 19, 2007
It's more like an Honours or Masters thesis, I think. The "Dottore" is apparently a colloquial thing, a sign of respect from family members etc.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:56 PM on February 19, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:56 PM on February 19, 2007
Veterinarians, Pharmacists & Dentists calling themselves "Doctor" can go to the hell reserved for the pathetically pretentious, as far as I am concerned, even more so than MB/BSs. And why lawyers would use the inferior "doctor" is beyond me, when we have far more pompous designations at our disposal, like Barrister-at-Law, Queen's Counsel and so on.
It's the schools changing the designation. A few years ago, the image-conscious University of Toronto changed their bachelors of law to the "J.D." (doctor of jurisprudence, I believe) following U.S. schools. The thing is, the U of T offers masters and doctoral degrees, as well. So you can get your J.D., then do a masters, then a doctorate, all in law. (this, btw, has resulted in much well-deserved mocking from the rest of Canada)
posted by dreamsign at 10:57 PM on February 19, 2007
It's the schools changing the designation. A few years ago, the image-conscious University of Toronto changed their bachelors of law to the "J.D." (doctor of jurisprudence, I believe) following U.S. schools. The thing is, the U of T offers masters and doctoral degrees, as well. So you can get your J.D., then do a masters, then a doctorate, all in law. (this, btw, has resulted in much well-deserved mocking from the rest of Canada)
posted by dreamsign at 10:57 PM on February 19, 2007
* mocks U of T.
Everybody knows that McGill is the place to do Law in Canada, anyway.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:43 PM on February 20, 2007
Everybody knows that McGill is the place to do Law in Canada, anyway.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:43 PM on February 20, 2007
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