When even Dave Sim finds you weird...
February 23, 2007 7:12 AM Subscribe
Dave Sim gets a book proposal from a furry.
Wow. When lunatics collide.
(Why is there no "batshitinsane" tag?)
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:20 AM on February 23, 2007
(Why is there no "batshitinsane" tag?)
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:20 AM on February 23, 2007
David Sim is in no position to be mocking other people for using anthropomorphic creatures to express lunatic viewpoints.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:20 AM on February 23, 2007 [6 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:20 AM on February 23, 2007 [6 favorites]
There is no rape, no incest, and no sexual activity with minors in this story. Every character is eighteen and up. Very few are eighteen to twenty, the majority twenty-four to thirty-nine.
Also, the wolf character wears a monocle and spats to the big furr orgy. It's all handled with the utmost discretion and good taste.
posted by fleetmouse at 7:21 AM on February 23, 2007
Also, the wolf character wears a monocle and spats to the big furr orgy. It's all handled with the utmost discretion and good taste.
posted by fleetmouse at 7:21 AM on February 23, 2007
David Sim is a total nutter. I think that producing 300 issues of a comic book drove him completely off the deep end.
Cerebus was a great graphic novel, but he lost me with the batshitinsane Cirinist story arc.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:22 AM on February 23, 2007
Cerebus was a great graphic novel, but he lost me with the batshitinsane Cirinist story arc.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:22 AM on February 23, 2007
Bigoted nutjob gets book proposal from another nutjob. Film at 11.
posted by substrate at 7:26 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by substrate at 7:26 AM on February 23, 2007
Is MeFi becoming Furryfilter? Cuz... if so? Ummm... no thank you.
posted by miss lynnster at 7:28 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by miss lynnster at 7:28 AM on February 23, 2007
I tried to get past the first paragraph, but it wasn't worth it.
posted by Miko at 7:29 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by Miko at 7:29 AM on February 23, 2007
"I wrote this story for all my time upon the internet searching and reading stories written of Furrs I have yet found one that appeals to my sense of action and sexual curiosity as an adult. I find that most of them are written as real life scenarios that are enjoyable to read but are so close to my daily life that they are not enjoyable to me completely for my daily life is not all that interesting."
posted by stammer at 7:29 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by stammer at 7:29 AM on February 23, 2007
Wow. Posting a private e-mail to your blog is just plain rude.
posted by Mwongozi at 7:31 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by Mwongozi at 7:31 AM on February 23, 2007
Dave Sim is an interesting study in contrasts. Cerebus -- even through Mothers and Daughters -- is one of the most artistically visionary, creative uses of the comic medium. Sim was downright revolutionary in his use of panel structure as an active component of telling a story, and is one of the reasons it's now considered a part of the art form. But his philosophical and political views, which are expressed to an increasing degree throughout the run of Cerebus, that he holds are nothing short of reprehensible (if not actually insane). I recommend his work, but reservedly; for those who don't want to be hammered with the really, really bad shit, I'd say stop after Melmoth.
(BTW, is it Comic Book-Related Day on MeFi or something?)
posted by graymouser at 7:32 AM on February 23, 2007
(BTW, is it Comic Book-Related Day on MeFi or something?)
posted by graymouser at 7:32 AM on February 23, 2007
I have seen the term "furry" thrown around a lot on the internet, and have never really taken the trouble to look it up to see what it means, but from the context it appears to be the geeks that all the other geeks make fun of to make them not feel like they are such geeks. Kind of like the kids who play Magic: The Gathering making fun of the kids that play D&D.
posted by ND¢ at 7:35 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by ND¢ at 7:35 AM on February 23, 2007
You know, I loved Cerebus so much, I keep hoping that I'll wake up one day and Dave Sim will be sane again. But I'm afraid that the furry novel has more gritty realism to it than that.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:37 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:37 AM on February 23, 2007
Cerebus-High Society and Church & State, vol 1 and 2 were brillant and should be regarded as good works of art His and Gerhards artwork is brillant and stunning. What he did for comic lettering is unequaled.
But yes, he's gone catshitinsane.
His feminist views start out ok, in that he warns against going totally matriarchal, as its effects on society would be as bad as being totally patriachal.
But he takes an ok idea and then goes completely nuts.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:38 AM on February 23, 2007
But yes, he's gone catshitinsane.
His feminist views start out ok, in that he warns against going totally matriarchal, as its effects on society would be as bad as being totally patriachal.
But he takes an ok idea and then goes completely nuts.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:38 AM on February 23, 2007
the geeks that all the other geeks make fun of to make them not feel like they are such geeks.
Yes indeed:
The Geek Hierarchy
posted by Foosnark at 7:38 AM on February 23, 2007 [3 favorites]
Yes indeed:
The Geek Hierarchy
posted by Foosnark at 7:38 AM on February 23, 2007 [3 favorites]
"The deaths are gruesome to an extent but not too grizzly." Heh.
posted by kimota at 7:39 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by kimota at 7:39 AM on February 23, 2007
Mwongozi writes "Posting a private e-mail to your blog is just plain rude."
Snail mail, actually.
posted by Bugbread at 7:42 AM on February 23, 2007
Snail mail, actually.
posted by Bugbread at 7:42 AM on February 23, 2007
Snail mail, actually.
And a mass mailing to publishers besides Sim at that. This is junk mail of a fascinating vintage, not someone's super private words.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:55 AM on February 23, 2007
And a mass mailing to publishers besides Sim at that. This is junk mail of a fascinating vintage, not someone's super private words.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:55 AM on February 23, 2007
I don't like posts about, "Hey, let's make fun of this guy!"
On the other hand, I did read Afroblanco's link. I had read one of the Cerebus TPBs years ago, but I didn't really know anything about Sim before reading this interview. Here are a couple of his most inflammatory excerpts:
posted by cribcage at 8:00 AM on February 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, I did read Afroblanco's link. I had read one of the Cerebus TPBs years ago, but I didn't really know anything about Sim before reading this interview. Here are a couple of his most inflammatory excerpts:
I'm not sure that the last couple of generations—Generation X and Generation Next, or whatever you want to call them—even know what a thought is, having been raised to be women.And:
But when you're dealing with feminism, you're dealing with women, and that means if you frame a persuasive argument with which they disagree, they will, instead, indulge in character assassination.MeFites routinely confuse misogyny with sexism as if they're synonyms (which they are not). It's actually relatively rare to find a real, honest-to-God example of misogyny. Here's one.
posted by cribcage at 8:00 AM on February 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
Seeing how that for the most part every one of my characters are bisexual there are no parts in the story where gays are talked badly of or any parts for that matter where a religion is bashed.
See where tolerance gets you? One moment you're not discriminating against homosexuals, the next you're reading a 300 page furry epic! Someone get Falwell on the line!
The slope, she is both slippery and now likely covered with anthropomorphic wolf pleasure slave semen.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:15 AM on February 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
See where tolerance gets you? One moment you're not discriminating against homosexuals, the next you're reading a 300 page furry epic! Someone get Falwell on the line!
The slope, she is both slippery and now likely covered with anthropomorphic wolf pleasure slave semen.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:15 AM on February 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
cribcage:
Well, that's the damned thing about Cerebus: it is, from an artistic point of view, one of the best comic books ever written. From a political and philosophical point of view, it devolves into outright misogyny and is genuinely revolting. Cerebus is the sort of text that brings one's philosophy of art to the surface, because it couldn't not be polarizing.
It's unfortunate that this comes in the context of a sort of "ZOMG FURRIES" moment, because Cerebus deserves a thoughtful, critical response. I'm personally very deeply torn over it, though at the end of the day I find that it's worth engaging as a work because of its artistic merit.
posted by graymouser at 8:19 AM on February 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
Well, that's the damned thing about Cerebus: it is, from an artistic point of view, one of the best comic books ever written. From a political and philosophical point of view, it devolves into outright misogyny and is genuinely revolting. Cerebus is the sort of text that brings one's philosophy of art to the surface, because it couldn't not be polarizing.
It's unfortunate that this comes in the context of a sort of "ZOMG FURRIES" moment, because Cerebus deserves a thoughtful, critical response. I'm personally very deeply torn over it, though at the end of the day I find that it's worth engaging as a work because of its artistic merit.
posted by graymouser at 8:19 AM on February 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
I helped organize a high school comic book convention once. We got Dave Sim to show up. He signed the lid of my comic box and drew a little Cerebus on it. He doesn't drive so we had to pay for a limo. Everyone went out for chinese buffet afterwards. I regret not going along, but I actually found him kinda boring after chatting with him for a couple minutes. Maybe if I had read more Cerebus. Apparently he just quietly talked comics, described Image comics as the death of the industry (it was spring 1994), and then took the limo back home to Kitchener.
posted by autodidact at 8:23 AM on February 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by autodidact at 8:23 AM on February 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
What is a Book?
What does it mean to get?
I think that covers it.
posted by delmoi at 8:25 AM on February 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
What does it mean to get?
I think that covers it.
posted by delmoi at 8:25 AM on February 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
What makes this amusing, to me, is that it is something like a "first goatse.cx" moment. I suspect that, before receiving this letter, Mr. Sim was not aware that such a thing as furries existed. The true humor on this, for me, is imagining his initial reaction to it.
Now, if somebody could get a picture of Sim looking at goatse.cx, it would pretty much cap off this post.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:48 AM on February 23, 2007
Now, if somebody could get a picture of Sim looking at goatse.cx, it would pretty much cap off this post.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:48 AM on February 23, 2007
Fuck! No! Dave Sim lives HERE? In MY TOWN? Shit, man, Waterloo is right up the street, maybe it's not to late to move the mailbox.
Okay, so he was here first....
And ... I guess ... this explains why there's always Cerebus TPBs in the library. And why the comic stores are always fully stocked...
My god, I might have actually seen him. Shudder.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:30 AM on February 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
Okay, so he was here first....
And ... I guess ... this explains why there's always Cerebus TPBs in the library. And why the comic stores are always fully stocked...
My god, I might have actually seen him. Shudder.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:30 AM on February 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
I, too, loved the Cerebus comics but yeah Sim's batshitinsane. I do loves me the Bug Cockroach, though.
posted by porpoise at 9:37 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by porpoise at 9:37 AM on February 23, 2007
*glances at the picture of Keith Richards Sim drew at a '92 con hanging on my wall*
*'92? Fuck. I'm old*
Cerebus-High Society and Church & State, vol 1 and 2 were brillant and should be regarded as good works of art His and Gerhards artwork is brillant and stunning.
Hell yes. I pretty much stopped after Jaka's Story, though. Not because I lost interest, but because the books were getting too fucking expensive for my meager college means. I picked up Melmoth and Flight later on, so I guess I stopped right before the crazy.
Maybe he's a loon. But he did put the phrase, "sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons," into my vocabulary, so that's something.
posted by Cyrano at 9:55 AM on February 23, 2007
*'92? Fuck. I'm old*
Cerebus-High Society and Church & State, vol 1 and 2 were brillant and should be regarded as good works of art His and Gerhards artwork is brillant and stunning.
Hell yes. I pretty much stopped after Jaka's Story, though. Not because I lost interest, but because the books were getting too fucking expensive for my meager college means. I picked up Melmoth and Flight later on, so I guess I stopped right before the crazy.
Maybe he's a loon. But he did put the phrase, "sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons," into my vocabulary, so that's something.
posted by Cyrano at 9:55 AM on February 23, 2007
and then took the limo back home to Kitchener
This has just such a great doomed quality to it. Tragedy, loss, condemnation to a certain kind of maddeningly comfortable hell. It should be a euphemism.
"Whatever happened to that dude?"
"Well, he was all kinds of talented, but I dunno, he sorta got lost inside his own head. Took the limo back home to Kitchener, last I heard."
(For non-Canadian MeFites, Kitchener's a smallish post-industrial city an hour and a half west of Toronto. Faded blue collar and suburbanized, and a bit down-at-heel compared to adjacent techie haven Waterloo. If you were going to make a Canadian version of The Office, you'd definitely consider setting it in Kitchener. I'm sure K-W Mefites are gonna kick my ass over this and argue for like Barrie or Brampton, so I should admit my first-hand knowledge is several years old.)
posted by gompa at 9:56 AM on February 23, 2007
This has just such a great doomed quality to it. Tragedy, loss, condemnation to a certain kind of maddeningly comfortable hell. It should be a euphemism.
"Whatever happened to that dude?"
"Well, he was all kinds of talented, but I dunno, he sorta got lost inside his own head. Took the limo back home to Kitchener, last I heard."
(For non-Canadian MeFites, Kitchener's a smallish post-industrial city an hour and a half west of Toronto. Faded blue collar and suburbanized, and a bit down-at-heel compared to adjacent techie haven Waterloo. If you were going to make a Canadian version of The Office, you'd definitely consider setting it in Kitchener. I'm sure K-W Mefites are gonna kick my ass over this and argue for like Barrie or Brampton, so I should admit my first-hand knowledge is several years old.)
posted by gompa at 9:56 AM on February 23, 2007
I have nothing to add. I just felt like I had to comment in this thread.
posted by cerebus19 at 10:16 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by cerebus19 at 10:16 AM on February 23, 2007
"...my theory [is] that feminists aren't really the "hate mail" type—the shunning that they learned in high school is more their style..."
I have never hear of this person, so I don't know anything about his much alluded-to views on women, but man -- What a deluded little prick. I like the furry guy. I like Goreans, as a concept -- rock on and be happy with your freaky selves, and there is something kind of charming about people sexualizing their entire waking lives.
But this guy? He's just some sort of miserable bastard who writes -- what? -- rape fantasies?
posted by Methylviolet at 10:22 AM on February 23, 2007
I have never hear of this person, so I don't know anything about his much alluded-to views on women, but man -- What a deluded little prick. I like the furry guy. I like Goreans, as a concept -- rock on and be happy with your freaky selves, and there is something kind of charming about people sexualizing their entire waking lives.
But this guy? He's just some sort of miserable bastard who writes -- what? -- rape fantasies?
posted by Methylviolet at 10:22 AM on February 23, 2007
But this guy? He's just some sort of miserable bastard who writes -- what? -- rape fantasies?
No. He's comic book writer-artist who started off brillantly then crashed and burned, at least mentally, once he got to far into a men vs women theme.
But his observations about politics were pretty damn good.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:30 AM on February 23, 2007
No. He's comic book writer-artist who started off brillantly then crashed and burned, at least mentally, once he got to far into a men vs women theme.
But his observations about politics were pretty damn good.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:30 AM on February 23, 2007
"It was really the first time in my adult life that I spoke to women who I found physically unattractive and the first time I spoke to women with any motive besides getting them into bed..."
Oh OK. He writes weird misogynist screeds, also comix.
That's not pathetic.
posted by Methylviolet at 10:31 AM on February 23, 2007
Oh OK. He writes weird misogynist screeds, also comix.
That's not pathetic.
posted by Methylviolet at 10:31 AM on February 23, 2007
Methylviolet writes "I like Goreans, as a concept"
I dunno, the whole "it's ok to kill your wife, girlfriend, or children if they displease you" bit kinda puts a damper on my Gorean acceptance.
posted by Bugbread at 10:33 AM on February 23, 2007
I dunno, the whole "it's ok to kill your wife, girlfriend, or children if they displease you" bit kinda puts a damper on my Gorean acceptance.
posted by Bugbread at 10:33 AM on February 23, 2007
I'll take the Furry guy over Sim any day. At least he seems to have an idea of where the line between fantasy and reality is located, and isn't attempting to change society to fit his vision.
posted by jokeefe at 10:40 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by jokeefe at 10:40 AM on February 23, 2007
I think there's a certain value in pointing out misogynistic prose, especially in a forum where the term is often diluted by misuse; but I don't see any constructive purpose behind comments like "miserable bastard" or "deluded little prick," and I certainly don't see any reason to malign an entire industry by insinuating that writing comic books is "pathetic."
I mean, I don't agree with the guy — but look, he's saying that women are incapable of anything beyond character assassination, and then along comes a woman* to call him a "deluded little prick." Maybe not the best tactical decision.
* That's a sexist assumption that all usernames including the word "violet" probably denote female gender.
posted by cribcage at 10:44 AM on February 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
I mean, I don't agree with the guy — but look, he's saying that women are incapable of anything beyond character assassination, and then along comes a woman* to call him a "deluded little prick." Maybe not the best tactical decision.
* That's a sexist assumption that all usernames including the word "violet" probably denote female gender.
posted by cribcage at 10:44 AM on February 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
That's not OK with you, Bugbread? I mean, it's only if you displease him.
posted by Methylviolet at 10:48 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by Methylviolet at 10:48 AM on February 23, 2007
Um, you're not a Gorean, are you Cribcage?
posted by Methylviolet at 10:50 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by Methylviolet at 10:50 AM on February 23, 2007
The feminism essay is a laugh riot:
The research which most contributed to my "ideas about women" was the series of informal interviews I conducted with mothers and daughters - [...] It was really the first time in my adult life that I spoke to women who I found physically unattractive and the first time I spoke to women with any motive besides getting them into bed. In the case of the attractive women that I interviewed, it was a guarantee that I was not going to get them into bed - "mothers and daughters," as subject, existing at the opposite end of the conversational spectrum from those topics which lead to sex - and (knowing that) for the first time in my adult life the intellectual, reasoning, "writerly" part of my mind was engaged when talking to women.
For the first while, I couldn't figure out what was wrong.
But it gets better!
All women are feminists and all feminist evidence is anecdotal. Ask them a question and they will tell you a little story. Ask them a question to clarify what you infer is the point of the story and they will tell you another story.
He then tries to prove his arguement about the lack of intellectual foundation in feminism by doing this:
Telling them that they don't make sense, I found, is like telling them that not only do they not win the trip to Hawaii, they don't even get the Samsonite luggage. They become forlorn and uncommunicative. That was when I realized that it was impossible to engage them on an intellectual, reasoning, "writerly" level - that is in a purely matter-of-fact fashion. I had to act, had to portray myself as being happy, sympathetic, interested and cheerful in order to maintain a level of...
...I don't know what you would call it. It wasn't oommunicarion [sic] in any meaningful sense of the term as I understand it. It was a kind of "emotional badminton." I acted happy, sympathetic, interested and cheerful and then it was her turn to act happy, sympathetic, interested and cheerful and then it was my turn, etc. She might accidentally say something interesting where I could, with sincerity, say that I found what she had just said interesting. This temporarily escalated the level of her cheerfulness but, alas, that is all that it did: whatever was being said ranking a very distant second to maintaining and escalating the level of cheerfulness.
Dude. You're telling a story here, you know? Anecdotal evidence.
I've given up on reading the essay because I have work to do, but it's tremendously amusing to read a non-intellectual rant (it's not an argument, no matter what he thinks) about the "lack of intellectual foundation in feminism." I'm guessing he hasn't read a lot of any kind of political philosophy, actually. Because he certainly doesn't have any idea how to construct an argument, which is perhaps why the reaction to this piece tends to be so dismissive. There's no substance to it.
posted by jokeefe at 10:52 AM on February 23, 2007 [3 favorites]
The research which most contributed to my "ideas about women" was the series of informal interviews I conducted with mothers and daughters - [...] It was really the first time in my adult life that I spoke to women who I found physically unattractive and the first time I spoke to women with any motive besides getting them into bed. In the case of the attractive women that I interviewed, it was a guarantee that I was not going to get them into bed - "mothers and daughters," as subject, existing at the opposite end of the conversational spectrum from those topics which lead to sex - and (knowing that) for the first time in my adult life the intellectual, reasoning, "writerly" part of my mind was engaged when talking to women.
For the first while, I couldn't figure out what was wrong.
But it gets better!
All women are feminists and all feminist evidence is anecdotal. Ask them a question and they will tell you a little story. Ask them a question to clarify what you infer is the point of the story and they will tell you another story.
He then tries to prove his arguement about the lack of intellectual foundation in feminism by doing this:
Telling them that they don't make sense, I found, is like telling them that not only do they not win the trip to Hawaii, they don't even get the Samsonite luggage. They become forlorn and uncommunicative. That was when I realized that it was impossible to engage them on an intellectual, reasoning, "writerly" level - that is in a purely matter-of-fact fashion. I had to act, had to portray myself as being happy, sympathetic, interested and cheerful in order to maintain a level of...
...I don't know what you would call it. It wasn't oommunicarion [sic] in any meaningful sense of the term as I understand it. It was a kind of "emotional badminton." I acted happy, sympathetic, interested and cheerful and then it was her turn to act happy, sympathetic, interested and cheerful and then it was my turn, etc. She might accidentally say something interesting where I could, with sincerity, say that I found what she had just said interesting. This temporarily escalated the level of her cheerfulness but, alas, that is all that it did: whatever was being said ranking a very distant second to maintaining and escalating the level of cheerfulness.
Dude. You're telling a story here, you know? Anecdotal evidence.
I've given up on reading the essay because I have work to do, but it's tremendously amusing to read a non-intellectual rant (it's not an argument, no matter what he thinks) about the "lack of intellectual foundation in feminism." I'm guessing he hasn't read a lot of any kind of political philosophy, actually. Because he certainly doesn't have any idea how to construct an argument, which is perhaps why the reaction to this piece tends to be so dismissive. There's no substance to it.
posted by jokeefe at 10:52 AM on February 23, 2007 [3 favorites]
jokeefe writes "Dude. You're telling a story here, you know? Anecdotal evidence. "
Let me tell you a little story here which might explain that contradiction...
posted by Bugbread at 11:02 AM on February 23, 2007
Let me tell you a little story here which might explain that contradiction...
posted by Bugbread at 11:02 AM on February 23, 2007
He's sounds like he has Asperger's or something... He has empathy problems, can't communicate emotionally... It's sad, really.
posted by MythMaker at 11:05 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by MythMaker at 11:05 AM on February 23, 2007
Gail Simone had a particularly entertaining take on that essay.
posted by Phlogiston at 11:11 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by Phlogiston at 11:11 AM on February 23, 2007
The Flight collection might be my favourite comic book/graphic novel/whatever of all time. Note that I did not say best of all time. Cerebus, at its best, was as good as anything I've ever read in comic book form. At its worst, well....
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:35 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:35 AM on February 23, 2007
Entertaining, sure, but I wouldn't hold up Simone as a shining example of a comics writer known for even-handed, compelling, rational thought. Or particularly skilful writing, generally.
posted by solid-one-love at 11:36 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by solid-one-love at 11:36 AM on February 23, 2007
Let me add my name to the chorus of good artist ruining it all with his dumbfoundingly idiotic views... now that I've gotten that out of the way, let me add that there already is a Canadian Office and it's set in the district of Côte-de-Liesse, the borough of Saint-Laurent in the city of Montréal. Also, was anybody else more bugged by his misuse of "whom" than his furriness?
Ah, okay then, guess it was just me.
posted by Kattullus at 11:40 AM on February 23, 2007
Ah, okay then, guess it was just me.
posted by Kattullus at 11:40 AM on February 23, 2007
(So all right, if I wanted to read the good bits of Cerebus, where should I start? I mean, I'd like some lead-in and context and whatnot, but I understand the first few collections are also supposed to be pretty uneven.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:46 AM on February 23, 2007
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:46 AM on February 23, 2007
The more I think about it, the more Dave Sim reminds me of Bobby Fischer. Brilliant guy, but good for one thing and one thing only.
The fact that Fischer is an ugly little Nazi sympathizer doesn't make him less of a great chess player. But it does mean that I would never personally want to play chess with him.
posted by Afroblanco at 11:50 AM on February 23, 2007
The fact that Fischer is an ugly little Nazi sympathizer doesn't make him less of a great chess player. But it does mean that I would never personally want to play chess with him.
posted by Afroblanco at 11:50 AM on February 23, 2007
(So all right, if I wanted to read the good bits of Cerebus, where should I start? I mean, I'd like some lead-in and context and whatnot, but I understand the first few collections are also supposed to be pretty uneven.)
It actually gets really good pretty fast. The first 10 issues or so are a little weak, and even there you get brilliant things like Elrod the Albino: an Elric parody who talks like Foghorn Leghorn. I'd say start from the beginning. Second choice is to start with the second volume, High Society, the first consciously long story arc in the series. You'll be missing a bit of background though.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:56 AM on February 23, 2007
It actually gets really good pretty fast. The first 10 issues or so are a little weak, and even there you get brilliant things like Elrod the Albino: an Elric parody who talks like Foghorn Leghorn. I'd say start from the beginning. Second choice is to start with the second volume, High Society, the first consciously long story arc in the series. You'll be missing a bit of background though.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:56 AM on February 23, 2007
Cerberus at issue 1 is acceptable, if rough and slapdash. It really becomes a Larger Story Worth Reading at 25 or so. You could skip the first collection and be fine.
posted by phearlez at 12:00 PM on February 23, 2007
posted by phearlez at 12:00 PM on February 23, 2007
Read High Society and the two Church and States. Those are the 100% unadulterated good stuff. After that it gets kind of dodgy, although as I said before I really love Flight (which won't make any sense if you haven't read everything which comes before). There were enough diamonds spread throughout the rough throughout the series to keep me reading until the end, although I don't think I would have made it if I'd been buying it and reading it as it was originally released (I signed all of them out of the library).
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:00 PM on February 23, 2007
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:00 PM on February 23, 2007
Entertaining, sure, but I wouldn't hold up Simone as a shining example of a comics writer known for even-handed, compelling, rational thought. Or particularly skilful writing, generally.
Apple, sure, but I wouldn't hold it up as a shining example of a fruit known for its citric tang. Or particularly high potassium content.
Anyway, while she may not be producing the next Watchmen, I think her output stands up quite well against the rest of what's being published in its genre.
posted by Phlogiston at 12:17 PM on February 23, 2007
Apple, sure, but I wouldn't hold it up as a shining example of a fruit known for its citric tang. Or particularly high potassium content.
Anyway, while she may not be producing the next Watchmen, I think her output stands up quite well against the rest of what's being published in its genre.
posted by Phlogiston at 12:17 PM on February 23, 2007
I bet this guy's ex, the NoMarriage guy's ex, John Norman's ex, and all the Seduce and Destroy guys' exes have a club, and I bet that club has a website called: I HAVE DESTROYED YOUR MIND WITH THE POWER OF MY VAGINA.
I bet they have meetings, and they eat raw testicles (since obviously none of them cook) and practice their "muahaha." That's a FPP I'd like to see.
posted by Methylviolet at 1:00 PM on February 23, 2007 [4 favorites]
I bet they have meetings, and they eat raw testicles (since obviously none of them cook) and practice their "muahaha." That's a FPP I'd like to see.
posted by Methylviolet at 1:00 PM on February 23, 2007 [4 favorites]
Cerebus-High Society and Church & State, vol 1 and 2 were brillant and should be regarded as good works of art
Hear, hear.
posted by homunculus at 1:44 PM on February 23, 2007
Hear, hear.
posted by homunculus at 1:44 PM on February 23, 2007
From the furry proposal:
a power hungry human named Mr. Burns
AWESOME.
posted by staggernation at 1:52 PM on February 23, 2007
a power hungry human named Mr. Burns
AWESOME.
posted by staggernation at 1:52 PM on February 23, 2007
I bought the first two Cerebus books but simply couldn't be arsed be read them. I think I tried to read a few pages once but got bored with the whole aardvark thing and put it down. I sold them second hand on Amazon.
posted by snoktruix at 1:58 PM on February 23, 2007
posted by snoktruix at 1:58 PM on February 23, 2007
As far as the good parts of Cerebus go, I think that the series really took off around Mind Games in the first book, and it's well worth reading that book to get there. As Cerebus leaves "traditional" reality behind, the story with Suentius Po and the art both take on a sophistication that will mark the rest of the run. And Sim is a master of combining art and words to tell a story; I think going up through Jaka's Story and Melmoth, before the real hardcore misogyny of Mothers & Daughters is really worthwhile. Even then, in Reads he's pushing boundaries in form, but the content has changed dramatically. I don't think it's rewarding in the way that High Society and Church & State are, but it is still work that most of comics will take years to catch up to -- if it is ever bothered.
posted by graymouser at 2:04 PM on February 23, 2007
posted by graymouser at 2:04 PM on February 23, 2007
Apple, sure, but I wouldn't hold it up as a shining example of a fruit known for its citric tang. Or particularly high potassium content.
Her retort is based on the premise that Sim is being biased and irrational. While I agree with that sentiment, my criticism of her is that she isn't, either. It's not just the same fruit, it's from the same tree and came to the same store in the same truck.
Anyway, while she may not be producing the next Watchmen, I think her output stands up quite well against the rest of what's being published in its genre.
IMHO, not so much. I don't think anything she's done is the next Youngblood, much less the next Watchmen.
posted by solid-one-love at 2:28 PM on February 23, 2007
Her retort is based on the premise that Sim is being biased and irrational. While I agree with that sentiment, my criticism of her is that she isn't, either. It's not just the same fruit, it's from the same tree and came to the same store in the same truck.
Anyway, while she may not be producing the next Watchmen, I think her output stands up quite well against the rest of what's being published in its genre.
IMHO, not so much. I don't think anything she's done is the next Youngblood, much less the next Watchmen.
posted by solid-one-love at 2:28 PM on February 23, 2007
He's sounds like he has Asperger's or something...
Well, he is on the Internet, which is 99.9% self-diagnosed Aspies.
posted by Falconetti at 2:59 PM on February 23, 2007
Well, he is on the Internet, which is 99.9% self-diagnosed Aspies.
posted by Falconetti at 2:59 PM on February 23, 2007
Starting reading Cerebus from the first issue, even met Mr. Sim at a San Diego Comic Con years ago and got a fanboy sketch. But I realized after awhile that as the series got increasingly popular, he became crankier and more irrational and self-indulgent. The letter columns were filled with his rants over the numerous injustices the world had heaped upon him. And who can forget the five-panel two-page sequence of Cerebus taking a piss? That's fine art there!
I had to bail because I was too poor to pay for the privilege of watching Sim go insane and drive a once-promising series off into Cloud Cuckoo Land.
posted by Midnight Creeper at 3:05 PM on February 23, 2007
I had to bail because I was too poor to pay for the privilege of watching Sim go insane and drive a once-promising series off into Cloud Cuckoo Land.
posted by Midnight Creeper at 3:05 PM on February 23, 2007
And who can forget the five-panel two-page sequence of Cerebus taking a piss?
I was going to mention that earlier, but I was at work so I didn't have a way to get the count right.
I don't think anything she's done is the next Youngblood, much less the next Watchmen.
Ouch. Nice dig. Stare into the space between those two long enough and you'll see forever.
posted by Cyrano at 3:10 PM on February 23, 2007
I was going to mention that earlier, but I was at work so I didn't have a way to get the count right.
I don't think anything she's done is the next Youngblood, much less the next Watchmen.
Ouch. Nice dig. Stare into the space between those two long enough and you'll see forever.
posted by Cyrano at 3:10 PM on February 23, 2007
Oh OK. He writes weird misogynist screeds, also comix.
The REALLY crazy part is that some of his women characters are among the most 3d of females characters in the genre.
At least till he went insane.
So, anyone know if doing creative stuff these days?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:48 PM on February 23, 2007
The REALLY crazy part is that some of his women characters are among the most 3d of females characters in the genre.
At least till he went insane.
So, anyone know if doing creative stuff these days?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:48 PM on February 23, 2007
Oh nvm.
He's doing a biography of Canadian actress Siu Ta titled Siu Ta, So Far. Go figure.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:51 PM on February 23, 2007
He's doing a biography of Canadian actress Siu Ta titled Siu Ta, So Far. Go figure.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:51 PM on February 23, 2007
this explains why there's always Cerebus TPBs in the library.
We have Cerebus TPBs in the library and we're 8723 miles (14038 km) (7580 nautical miles) away from Kitchener.
Mr Sim: disturbed genius, suffers from an acute inability to form a reasoned argument coupled with the equally disabilitating inability to notice. Gives good comic, and bad, bad logic (longwinded bad logic at that - idealogical security via waffle). Used to be funny. Lost that almost entirely when he found religion, which he picked up at a three-for-one sale at the funny farm, enabling him to embrace all major Abrahamic faiths simultaneously. By all accounts, despite his unfounded and ill-considered views, a very generous soul.
File under humanity.
posted by Sparx at 5:16 PM on February 23, 2007
We have Cerebus TPBs in the library and we're 8723 miles (14038 km) (7580 nautical miles) away from Kitchener.
Mr Sim: disturbed genius, suffers from an acute inability to form a reasoned argument coupled with the equally disabilitating inability to notice. Gives good comic, and bad, bad logic (longwinded bad logic at that - idealogical security via waffle). Used to be funny. Lost that almost entirely when he found religion, which he picked up at a three-for-one sale at the funny farm, enabling him to embrace all major Abrahamic faiths simultaneously. By all accounts, despite his unfounded and ill-considered views, a very generous soul.
File under humanity.
posted by Sparx at 5:16 PM on February 23, 2007
I read Cerebus the whole way through from 1 to 300. Only issue I missed was 301 (which was a special bonus issue) because I couldn't figure out how to get it.
Now, in my opinion, the book through the end of Church and State (that would be more than the first 100 issues) was outstanding. Beyond outstanding. Among the finest Comic Book stories I've ever read.
The rest of the series was still a few marks above most everything else in the comic book world. The difference was the Sim stopped being as interested in being entertaining. He became much more focused on communicating ideas and less interested in telling stories, at least in my opinion.
"Reads," the series of stories that included the infamous "Mein Kampf of Mysogyny" rant, was sort of the turning point in terms of storytelling, also. I think Sim came to believe that he'd rather write something that meant something to him than to write something that other people would enjoy. The rest of the series, from "Reads" on, didn't seem to have an audience in mind - beyond an audience of Sim.
In a way, I can't say that I blame him. Most artists get tired of doing the same thing over and over again. The constraint of writing a periodical - where maintaining your audience is at least partially based on sales - probably put tremendous pressure on artists to stick to the formula.
"Hey Dave, do another Groucho parody" and such. Must be maddening after a while.
Anyhow, in so much as I don't agree with his views, I don't pay them much heed - and try not to let them effect my enjoyment of his work. Otherwise, I'd be morally compelled to get rid of my Public Enemy records, and that aint happening.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:03 PM on February 23, 2007
Now, in my opinion, the book through the end of Church and State (that would be more than the first 100 issues) was outstanding. Beyond outstanding. Among the finest Comic Book stories I've ever read.
The rest of the series was still a few marks above most everything else in the comic book world. The difference was the Sim stopped being as interested in being entertaining. He became much more focused on communicating ideas and less interested in telling stories, at least in my opinion.
"Reads," the series of stories that included the infamous "Mein Kampf of Mysogyny" rant, was sort of the turning point in terms of storytelling, also. I think Sim came to believe that he'd rather write something that meant something to him than to write something that other people would enjoy. The rest of the series, from "Reads" on, didn't seem to have an audience in mind - beyond an audience of Sim.
In a way, I can't say that I blame him. Most artists get tired of doing the same thing over and over again. The constraint of writing a periodical - where maintaining your audience is at least partially based on sales - probably put tremendous pressure on artists to stick to the formula.
"Hey Dave, do another Groucho parody" and such. Must be maddening after a while.
Anyhow, in so much as I don't agree with his views, I don't pay them much heed - and try not to let them effect my enjoyment of his work. Otherwise, I'd be morally compelled to get rid of my Public Enemy records, and that aint happening.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:03 PM on February 23, 2007
Her retort is based on the premise that Sim is being biased and irrational. While I agree with that sentiment, my criticism of her is that she isn't, either. It's not just the same fruit, it's from the same tree and came to the same store in the same truck.
I found some of the implications of the whole Women In Refrigerators thing to be a bit unfair but have never felt she was collectively dismissing me as a parasitic void created as a cosmic joke to consume her brilliance, nor anything of the like. Have I missed something particularly obnoxious?
IMHO, not so much. I don't think anything she's done is the next Youngblood, much less the next Watchmen.
Ouch. I classify her more with John Ostrander, myself. Mostly above average, workman-like genre material, with occasional dramatic misses and occasionally flashes of excellence.
posted by Phlogiston at 7:18 PM on February 23, 2007
I found some of the implications of the whole Women In Refrigerators thing to be a bit unfair but have never felt she was collectively dismissing me as a parasitic void created as a cosmic joke to consume her brilliance, nor anything of the like. Have I missed something particularly obnoxious?
IMHO, not so much. I don't think anything she's done is the next Youngblood, much less the next Watchmen.
Ouch. I classify her more with John Ostrander, myself. Mostly above average, workman-like genre material, with occasional dramatic misses and occasionally flashes of excellence.
posted by Phlogiston at 7:18 PM on February 23, 2007
Okay, my week is now complete. I didn't know about fursonas or furverts before and now I do.
No really, thank you for not posting this on a Monday. My Mondays are weird enough already.
posted by Zinger at 8:48 PM on February 23, 2007
No really, thank you for not posting this on a Monday. My Mondays are weird enough already.
posted by Zinger at 8:48 PM on February 23, 2007
Methylviolet, John Norman is married.
No doubt; but he came to her pre-destroyed. It is Norman's ex who gets the credit, and the club membership.
Testicle?
posted by Methylviolet at 7:46 AM on February 24, 2007
No doubt; but he came to her pre-destroyed. It is Norman's ex who gets the credit, and the club membership.
Testicle?
posted by Methylviolet at 7:46 AM on February 24, 2007
I think Sim came to believe that he'd rather write something that meant something to him than to write something that other people would enjoy. The rest of the series, from "Reads" on, didn't seem to have an audience in mind - beyond an audience of Sim.
I think Sim was always just writing for himself. That was fine when most of us were with him and suitably engaged and entertained. And that's ok.
Then he took a left turn, while most of us were expecting a right turn. That's ok too, hey, we could all use a change in scenery.
But the woods got ugly, he kept making these wierd turns and the readers ran outta trail mix and water and we had to pee. So we bailed, which was fine with Sim, he was going to the place, no matter what. We said Dave, this is getting wierd, we're hungry and we REALLY got to pee, could you get back on the main road or even a different road and Sim switched the radio to the crazy am talk shows and turned them up loud. And that's not ok.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:45 AM on February 24, 2007
I think Sim was always just writing for himself. That was fine when most of us were with him and suitably engaged and entertained. And that's ok.
Then he took a left turn, while most of us were expecting a right turn. That's ok too, hey, we could all use a change in scenery.
But the woods got ugly, he kept making these wierd turns and the readers ran outta trail mix and water and we had to pee. So we bailed, which was fine with Sim, he was going to the place, no matter what. We said Dave, this is getting wierd, we're hungry and we REALLY got to pee, could you get back on the main road or even a different road and Sim switched the radio to the crazy am talk shows and turned them up loud. And that's not ok.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:45 AM on February 24, 2007
I began to write a long post, sort of critical-essay-type-thing but I don't really have the ability to write such.
Cerebus is odd, and Sim is a much better writer than he thinks he is, at least when he's writing Cerebus. A lot of things in the book contradict or subvert the things that he writes in the meta-texts (the ridiculous feminism essay, or the dreadful pieces on Hemingway and Fitzgerald at the end of Going Home and Form & Void, for example).
Accusations of being boring I can see - although I don't find it boring myself - but I think the novel - the plot, the characterisations and the situations - are much more sympathetic representations of men and women than the Legend of Mad Old Dave Sim would have one believe. And it's curious that all people know about Dave Sim (and by extension Cerebus) are these bizarre ideas about Marxist-Feminism, The Void and women who'll sap our precious bodily fluids. Very strange, and very sad that he's buried the reputation of what is mostly an extraordinary, funny, moving and subtle work under such a tawdry and crass legacy.
posted by Grangousier at 10:48 AM on February 24, 2007
Cerebus is odd, and Sim is a much better writer than he thinks he is, at least when he's writing Cerebus. A lot of things in the book contradict or subvert the things that he writes in the meta-texts (the ridiculous feminism essay, or the dreadful pieces on Hemingway and Fitzgerald at the end of Going Home and Form & Void, for example).
Accusations of being boring I can see - although I don't find it boring myself - but I think the novel - the plot, the characterisations and the situations - are much more sympathetic representations of men and women than the Legend of Mad Old Dave Sim would have one believe. And it's curious that all people know about Dave Sim (and by extension Cerebus) are these bizarre ideas about Marxist-Feminism, The Void and women who'll sap our precious bodily fluids. Very strange, and very sad that he's buried the reputation of what is mostly an extraordinary, funny, moving and subtle work under such a tawdry and crass legacy.
posted by Grangousier at 10:48 AM on February 24, 2007
And it's curious that all people know about Dave Sim (and by extension Cerebus) are these bizarre ideas about Marxist-Feminism, The Void and women who'll sap our precious bodily fluids.
Sim would argue that is EXACTLY what he's talking about: people getting hung up on the emotional aspects and not using reason to actually piece together the info themselves.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:58 AM on February 24, 2007
Sim would argue that is EXACTLY what he's talking about: people getting hung up on the emotional aspects and not using reason to actually piece together the info themselves.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:58 AM on February 24, 2007
Sim started off so well, but damn it became intolerable to read soon enough. But the biggest shame of his work was that while promoting the self-publishing notion, Sim's comics were printed on the crappiest pulp I've ever had the misfortune to handle. Even if one kept buying his comics ($6 for 10 pages? yeah!) or his fat compilation books ($25 for hundreds of pages that will fall out within 2 weeks of purchase...) he fulfilled the stereotype of making it seem impossible to self-publish in high quality. Of course, these factors only seem relevant if you were oblivious/indifferent to the content.
posted by Busithoth at 10:56 AM on February 25, 2007
posted by Busithoth at 10:56 AM on February 25, 2007
Fursecution!
posted by sleeplessunderwater at 11:56 PM on February 25, 2007
posted by sleeplessunderwater at 11:56 PM on February 25, 2007
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posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:13 AM on February 23, 2007