Comments on: Sorority Discrimination?

Sorority Discrimination?

ericb — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:59:22 -0800

Sorority Evictions Raise Issue of Looks and Bias

"Delta Zeta’s national officers....judged 23 of the [DePauw University] women insufficiently committed and later told them to vacate the sorority house. The 23 members included every woman who was overweight. They also included the only black, Korean and Vietnamese members. The dozen students allowed to stay were slender and popular with fraternity men — conventionally pretty women the sorority hoped could attract new recruits. Six of the 12 were so infuriated they quit."

Many at the university are not happy.

By: ericb

ericb — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:01:52 -0800

Delta Zeta controversy sparks debates at Depauw.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:03:01 -0800

as I said on MeCha: it's a fuckin' sorority. Why the hell do people want to join these things so badly? It's college, it's not like it's hard to find people to get drunk and get laid with.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:06:56 -0800

They'll all be sorry when the girls form their own sorority, win the campus competition and assume the presidency of the Greek Council.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:11:22 -0800

It's all Greek to me.

By: ericb

ericb — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:11:57 -0800

...and when they enter a flo at in the homecoming parade!

By: Tommy Gnosis

Tommy Gnosis — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:12:53 -0800

I'm shocked to learn that the members of a national sorority's executive board might be comprised of supercilious twits.

By: brundlefly

brundlefly — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:14:26 -0800

I feel so disillusioned.

By: jacquilynne

jacquilynne — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:25:11 -0800

At moments like these, I'm glad to have attended a university that banned greek organizations entirely.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:35:30 -0800

Romy and Michele's High School Reunion (1997) covered this sort of thing from high school perspective girls will be girls

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:37:58 -0800

jonmc writes "Why the hell do people want to join these things so badly?" Affordable, comfortable housing?

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:41:20 -0800

Ah, so the Greeks are still behaving like Greeks. Why do these clubs exist at institutions of higher learning? This is clearly a sign that they set the standards of admission too low.

By: miss-lapin

miss-lapin — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:41:44 -0800

Why the hell do people want to join these things so badly? jonmc While I would agree with you in terms of large colleges or colleges located in places like Boston, there are a lot of colleges, like the one close to where I grew up, where literally there is NOTHING to do unless you are a member of a sorority or fraternity. More than just get drunk and sleep around (although there was plenty of that) they organized events, often times for the entire community. I can see how, depending on the college, where being kicked out of a sorority could have a huge impact.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:42:04 -0800

Wow, what a disgusting episode for Delta Zetas everywhere. Sending the letters just days before final exams is astonishingly heartless and ill-mannered. Not to mention the apparent lying about the girls being given a choice to leave or not, which it seems they weren't. And the assholes at the national level are the people judging others? Pathetic. I'm sure there'll be a lot of general anti-Greek life sentiment here, most of it uninformed and undeserved, but that shouldn't distract from the fact that this is an abnormally fucked-up way to go about reorganizing a sorority chapter, and it doesn't necessarily reflect on campus Greeks in general.

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:43:33 -0800

Affordable, comfortable housing? I don't know where you went to school. But I've seen plenty of kids get together with a half dozen or more friends and together rent a house that was easily as nice or nicer than any of the Frat houses on campus, and they didn't have to be hazed.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:48:47 -0800

But you can't hold a whole sorority responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole sorority system? And if the whole sorority system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you -- isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

By: Floydd

Floydd — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:50:16 -0800

This completely undermines my faith in the greek system. How can I go on?

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:59:48 -0800

By the way, there's good background in ericb's last "Depauw" link (which should have been in the post itself), with more specifics about the differences between what the members say they were told and what the national folks claim was said.

By: HighTechUnderpants

HighTechUnderpants — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:14:20 -0800

This is one of the reasons I went to a school without the stupid Greek system.

By: frogan

frogan — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:27:47 -0800

Holy shit, you mean it's NOT supposed to be a popularity contest???? Ohmigawd, I had no idea...

By: scody

scody — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:30:42 -0800

I think people are missing the point of how strange this is, since the whole point of sororities is to be as inclusive as possible.

By: hototogisu

hototogisu — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:36:25 -0800

since the whole point of sororities is to be as inclusive as possible. huh??

By: Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese

Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:38:56 -0800

It's times like these when we remember the good that Ted Bundy was doing.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:43:56 -0800

since the whole point of sororities is to be as inclusive as possible. Ha ha, but actually, the shame of it is that this sorority seems to have been doing just that.

By: Four-Eyed Girl

Four-Eyed Girl — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:04:12 -0800

scody, I don't understand your comment. I was in a sorority and was excluded from everything because I didn't fit the typical sorority stereotype. I wasn't included in social activities, even the required ones, and this is despite the fact that it was my job to inform the rest of the sorority that those activities existed. For example, I was at the very top of the phone tree. I would make the first phone calls to tell some sisters about an activity and then those people would call their assigned people and so on until everyone had been notified. They would skip me and start on their own. I would always find out days after the event, and I wasn't alone. Other women who didn't fit the stereotype weren't included either. I ended up leaving after two and a half years because I couldn't handle the rejection anymore.

By: Four-Eyed Girl

Four-Eyed Girl — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:05:08 -0800

I forgot to add that I knew why I was let in to my sorority: my grades. I brought their average up.

By: Saucy Intruder

Saucy Intruder — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:09:20 -0800

"You do want to win the Sisterhood Award, don't you?"

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:32:15 -0800

I think people are missing the point of how strange this is, since the whole point of sororities is to be as inclusive as possible. Inclusive? I do not think it means what you think it means. The word you are looking for is exclusive.

By: adipocere

adipocere — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:34:25 -0800

I wonder how long the ability to freely associate will last. I can't wait until I'm assigned a perfect balance of racially, ethnically, sexually, socio-economically, religiously diverse blend of Mandatory Friends, with about 10% left-handers in the mix. As long as people get to pick who their friends are, someone is gonna feel left out. That's true for friends, that's true for cliques, and that's true for the college version of the high school cliques. Tough. Harsh, unpleasant side effect of free will. If that's the kind of problem that you think needs to be "fixed," let's call Diana Moon Glampers and get started.

By: ook

ook — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:41:09 -0800

the national officers sent those women form letters that said: "The membership review team has recommended you for alumna status." I am *so* using that next time I have to fire someone.

By: jb

jb — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:47:41 -0800

They'll all be sorry when the girls form their own sorority, win the campus competition and assume the presidency of the Greek Council. posted by mr_crash_davis They really should form their own sorority. But should they call themselves Lambda Lambda Lambda or Omega Mu? (Omega Mu was the sorority, but Lambda Lambda Lambda is just a cooler...I mean, nerdier name.) I would totally join any sorority/fraternity named after those ones.

By: frogan

frogan — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:55:10 -0800

In a letter sent Monday to Delta Zeta sorority national president Deborah Raziano, President Robert G. Bottoms laid out the administration's "dissatisfaction" with DZ nationals' handling of the reorganization of DePauw's DZ chapter, the campus' smallest sorority in recent history. Dissatisfaction? That's it? I'm dissatisfied when the waitress is slow to bring me another soda. Wouldn't the story be so much better if the college president stood up and screamed, "Off! Off the campus, you bubble-headed dolts!"

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:56:00 -0800

Forming a mock Sorority would be a good idea. At Illinois State while I was there a mock fraternity was formed called TNA and there was a mock sorority called AΣΣ (ASS for those who don't know the Greek letters. They were a riot, and it made several greeks upset.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:56:09 -0800

Robot HOOOOOUSSSSSSE!

By: tommasz

tommasz — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:04:11 -0800

The Greeks don't want no freaks. Or ugly chicks. But seriously, elitists have a right to a college education just everyone else. But separate, of course.

By: geos

geos — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:04:40 -0800

my view of sororities as wholesome, safe havens of sisterhood is shattered, just shattered!

By: miss meg

miss meg — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:17:17 -0800

I'm not at all surprised by this. When I rushed during college, I looked at DZ because all of my friends were sisters. I was told by the recruitment chair that I should look elsewhere because I did not fit the image of the sorority and would not be a DZ. She even threatened to de-pledge if I was offered a bid. Disgusted with the entire process, I withdrew and remained unaffiliated throughout college.

By: scody

scody — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:30:20 -0800

scody: I think people are missing the point of how strange this is, since the whole point of sororities is to be as inclusive as possible. MrBobaFett: Inclusive? I do not think it means what you think it means. The word you are looking for is exclusive. And the word you are looking for is sarcasm.

By: jason's_planet

jason's_planet — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:34:12 -0800

Cynthia Winslow Menges, the executive director, said the sorority had not evicted the 23 women, even though the national officers sent those women form letters that said: “The membership review team has recommended you for alumna status. Chapter members receiving alumnae status should plan to relocate from the chapter house no later than Jan. 29, 2007.” "No, I didn't fire him. I only pointed to the exit and said 'Let the doorknob hit you where the Good Lord split you.'"

By: queenofthegeeks

queenofthegeeks — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:54:43 -0800

Sororities are so, like, very, like, over-rated. I did everything I could to get kicked out, but lucky me... to be born tall and blond.... And anyone who has lived through the selection process should know that sororities are ANYTHING but inclusive.

By: emjaybee

emjaybee — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:06:53 -0800

This is old news to me; I was the *last* woman admitted to my DZ chapter at my university before they closed it down! I would like to think it was admitting me that was the final straw, but alas, it was my sisters' insistence on being chess geeks, math majors, super smart, and uninterested in frat parties that killed it off. Other smart girls didn't see the point of paying dues and having a room (sororities didn't have houses at my campus...just rooms to meet in. Frats had houses. Which sucked). And normal sorority types thought we were all hairy legged lesbian man haters. But hey, that was only SOME of us. The rest of us shaved. Anyway, we managed to siphon off some funds money and throw a bitchen party at the end. Screw you, DZ. I hope you get your asses sued into pink-and-green* oblivion. *official DZ colors. Ugh.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:20:21 -0800

I did five years at the University of Edmonton. I swear I did not know a soul who was pledged to a fraternity. Various social clubs, yes, lots of them, but I don't know of any that required you to be, if I'm using the vernacular correctly, "lettered." OTOH, I can't claim to have been particularly interested in the clubs and cliques, so maybe I wouldn't have recognized a frat were it painted psychedalic pink.

By: AsYouKnow Bob

AsYouKnow Bob — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:47:58 -0800

Mr BobFett: At Illinois State while I was there a mock fraternity was formed called TNA and there was a mock sorority called AΣΣ ... Huh. During pledge week at my college, some of my friends and I formed our own mock fraternity. We had matching t-shirts made up and everything. In a overwhelming tsunami of irony, we had to shut down the prank because guys were clamoring to join. It was hilarious.

By: pax digita

pax digita — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:56:44 -0800

I made a couple of dormmates T-shirts for "Kappa Kega Bru" and "I Felta Thi."

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:03:13 -0800

It's Tappa Kega Bru, pax. Tappa.

By: RedEmma

RedEmma — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:07:42 -0800

the sad part is that many colleges now don't *allow* sororities who aren't affiliated with a national. at my small Wisconsin college, our sorority was one of the last of its kind--totally on its own, and had been around since the beginning of the school. it sounds very much like the kind of house these girls had put together--basically smart, not so worried about appearances, and fun-loving. and actually, we *were* inclusive, and only turned down women whose grades were so abysmal that we didn't think they could have the time for a sorority type social life. and we were small--really small. it would have been totally against who we were to judge based on your looks. i look back on it with some fondness (even though i wouldn't dream of going to a reunion) and it taught me a lot about organizing events and people. which is something, anyway. why join? because it has its uses. most of which had to do with learning how to run a non-profit for me.

By: jeanmari

jeanmari — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:19:34 -0800

mock fraternity was formed called TNA There were the Alpha Q's at Purdue University. But I digress... As a naive youth, I actually joined a sorority. I met a few nice people there, but overall? It was not a great experience for me, though I'm sure some loved it. It was like living in a high school clique and the passive-aggressiveness was pretty intense. There were some benefits. Housekeeping and cooking was taken care of for you so you were really free to focus more on whatever you were there for...studying or partying or both. Sadly, in the end, even the conveniences weren't worth the dysfuctional behavior in the house.

By: SisterHavana

SisterHavana — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:41:45 -0800

Some discussion on this (including a post from a member of that chapter) here and here. This is not a good situation at all and that's not what sisterhood should be about. (member of a coed service fraternity here!)

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:54:56 -0800

at my college rush week was whenever the good acid came in

By: Medieval Maven

Medieval Maven — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:07:34 -0800

My college did not have sororities, but rather "women's eating houses" and they were just as fucked up. I do not at all understand why people want to be in these things. I helped start a co-ed "eating house" and I was way more comfortable with a group of people who were deeper than a birdbath and also of either sex. Of course, our school had "self-selection," which meant that you put on a list 1-through-whatever the house that you wanted to join and then there was a lottery run against everyone's choices to determine where you fell. This, of course, meant that some girls got hounded out of houses. Our co-ed house, while not perfect, did not subject people to that, at least. I suppose traditional greek life might have its advantages, but I can't think of any that would be worth all the BS. But then again, I am something of a misanthrope.

By: Ynoxas

Ynoxas — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:21:12 -0800

Why do these clubs exist at institutions of higher learning? This is clearly a sign that they set the standards of admission too low. posted by MrBobaFett at 5:41 PM CST on February 24 I have always felt precisely the same way.

By: ericb

ericb — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:46:54 -0800

Why do these clubs exist at institutions of higher learning? Harvard: Final Clubs. Princeton: Eating Clubs. Etc.

By: porpoise

porpoise — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:57:21 -0800

GDI^* Forever! God Damned Independents,er, eta delta iota, I mean. I went to a small private freshwater college so we didn't have national *ternities (other than 'professional' ones like <snicker>beta beta beta&lt/snicker> which I ~~belonged to~~ paid into but there were 'social groups' which where, for all intents and purposes, the same thing. There were exclusive groups (white jock-types, white pretty-girl-types, violent-~~white~~ violent-but-not-black-kinda guys) and 'inclusive' (unpopular but not-generally-geeky guys, and possibly-but-probably-just-lipstick-lesbian-lesbian gals) and inclusive (anyone who doesn't fit into the above) groups. Excepting the two top levels (there was also a group that paid lip service to a major historical English literary icon, and they were cool, and there were 'non-frat-frats') all the groups welcomed virtually anyone who could pony up $5 for access to the kegs of cheap beer. But, yeah, I had friends who were 'accepted' into these things then 'politics' forced them right back out based on the desires/feelings of a small minority. I'm not surprised that national *ats might pull something like this; the *t alumni I've met were typically worse than the active members, in terms of extremism/prejudice. But then again, this was nowhere-midwest. I guess anyone who comes back to these parties (esp. non-national *ternities) must be special.

By: fuse theorem

fuse theorem — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:01:13 -0800

I forgot to add that I knew why I was let in to my sorority: my grades. I brought their average up. That's the very reason one sorority made a half-hearted overture to me. I say half-hearted because these were women who ordinarily didn't acknowledge my presence. I casually dropped the name of one of their competing sororities and the conversation stopped dead in it tracks. I recall that moment fondly.

By: nkyad

nkyad — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:04:27 -0800

Medieval Maven : "My college did not have sororities, but rather 'women's eating houses' and they were just as fucked up" Yeah, now we know it was all fucked up, but many people who lived in those crazy times still think that eating women is just a fun, cheap and innocent way to obtain protein. Specially if you're a college student living on a budget.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:38:52 -0800

What does "college" mean as used in the USA?

By: scody

scody — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:46:49 -0800

fff: "college" and "university" are basically synonymous, when used in the sense of "going to college." The actual difference is that a college is specifically a 4-year undergraduate institution, or an educational section within a university (e.g., the College of Arts & Sciences), a univeristy being designated as an institution also offering post-baccalaureate degrees. Or, to put it another way, I went to college at Washington University, where I got my degree within the College of Arts & Sciences.

By: chrisamiller

chrisamiller — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:41:36 -0800

fff: as usual, wikipedia has the answers you're looking for: College: British and American usage contrasted. There is technically a distinction, but in the US, "college" is casually used as a term for any undergraduate institution.

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:01:55 -0800

Why do these clubs exist at institutions of higher learning? Harvard: Final Clubs. Princeton: Eating Clubs. Those have no official affiliation with the University. They operate outside its jurisdiction. The linked wikipedia articles will tell you that too. Oddly though, the Greek system is very strong at MIT.

By: A Thousand Baited Hooks

A Thousand Baited Hooks — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 01:25:00 -0800

Do these things exist anywhere in the world outside the US?

By: thisjax

thisjax — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:25:59 -0800

A Thousand Baited Hooks: Canadian universities sometimes have fraternities and sororities affiliated with the same organizations that the American chapters are, but they don't (usually) carry the cachet that they tend to in American campus life. They tend to not be sanctioned by university admin, so recruitment/rush isn't the focal point of campus at any point and housing isn't their main draw at some schools. That, and the fact that Canadian schools usually have less frat/sorority chapters to begin with makes it a quieter affair. Not that it's particularily utopian over here, but in my experience, they've been treated as just another extracurricular, rather than the cliquey clusterfucks that American campuses have problems with. See also.

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 05:17:43 -0800

Having taught and studied at several major universities over the past 20 year, and having had many dealings with various representatives and aspects of the Greek system, and as a dedicated teacher of undergraduates, I have nothing but loathing for the fraternity/sorority thing. My current university has a tiny shell of this, basically insecure people who need to feel like they belong to something because they aren't as smart or cosmopolitan as their cohort-mates at this particular ivy league, urban institution. But I've been at other schools where the Greeks really dominated campus social life for undergrads. Still pathetic and insecure, but with power. Scary people. The women who were kicked out of Delta Zeta Mama Papa are lucky to have had the wake up call. They don't know it yet. Now every other student on that campus who is not in a frat or sorority ought to blackball the remaining Delta Zeta Wacka Wacka ladies, and mock and laugh at them when they walk by until they get it and quit, and generally do whatever they can to shame the national organization by making it unthinkable that anyone would ever want to "join" the college version of the KKK again. DePauw University. LOL.

By: matty

matty — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:05:51 -0800

It's times like these when we remember the good that Ted Bundy was doing. posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:38 PM EST on February 24 [+ 3 favorites] I went to FSU during a time in which the campus and town was still reeling from the actions of Ted Bundy. In that light, your little 'ha ha I made a funny' statement is probably one of the most offensive things I've ever seen on Metafilter. Perhaps even worse is that several $5 Fly-by's favorited it.

By: dirtynumbangelboy

dirtynumbangelboy — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:11:43 -0800

five fresh fish writes "OTOH, I can't claim to have been particularly interested in the clubs and cliques, so maybe I wouldn't have recognized a frat were it painted psychedalic pink." I believe that fraternities and sororities are not permitted on any Canadian campus. There are often frat and sorority houses located very close to campus, but they are not official school organizations.

By: Ynoxas

Ynoxas — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:26:55 -0800

matty: So basically you're saying "too soon"? I didn't find it particularly funny, but the level of offensiveness changes DRASTICALLY depending on the "tone" you read into it.

By: porpoise

porpoise — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:08:22 -0800

Hmm, there are certainly fraternity houses at the UBC campus (right across from the hospital - heh, there's new construction going up and there was a big sign up about 'sophisticated living' which someone vandalized '... right next to a frat house.' Heh. That got taken down right quick). The frats have their own buildings (which I think UBC - grrr Martha f'n' Piper* - put up for them) while there's only one pan-hellenic house. IMExperience, even at a state uni, the greek system seemed much more prominent than at Canadian universities. *UBC went deep into debt; it's possible that we will no longer qualify for CIHR/&c funding - which means we're hooped, thanked Ms. Piper.

By: jamjam

jamjam — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:15:13 -0800

If I were reading the story of Delta Zeta in a novel, I would expect it to be revealed in the next chapter that the national office had heard rumors and thought they were getting rid of a nest of lesbians (to speak of an aboriginal sorority).

By: grimmelm

grimmelm — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:17:10 -0800

One of the leaders behind the purge is ready for a job with the White House press office:

Cynthia Winslow Menges, the executive director, said the sorority had not evicted the 23 women . . . . Ms. Menges asserted that the women themselves had, in effect, made their own decisions to leave by demonstrating a lack of commitment to meet recruitment goals.

But other than that, the sorority officials here showed pretty much the bad judgment you'd expect when you expel the smart ones. It sounds like Delta Zeta trashed its reputation on campus, and that its moves to boost recruitment had exactly the opposite effect. Kicking out twenty-three members to gain three is a pretty bad tradeoff. It also sounds like a classic marketing mistake. What do you do if your brand is faltering because your offbeat associations mean you're falling behind in the competition for the average, bland consumer? If your answer was, "Imitate the leading brand," you've just made the problem worse. The "leading" sorority (skinniest, most popular, most exclusionary) is ahead because they're the best at it. You're not going to dislodge them by suddenly getting thin and nasty. You're just cutting out the strengths you do enjoy. The DePauw Delta Zeta chapter was building up a reputation as a good place for smarter and more interesting young women, and the best move would have been to embrace that reputation. By turning the tables and making a perceived weakness into a selling point, you carve out a healthy, stable niche. A more welcoming sorority that actually attracts members with ideas and values diversity and independence . . . that could work. Sadly, it sounds like that route wasn't going to work because of the political economy of sorority governance. The national Delta Zeta organization seems to have been a driving force behind the purge, and the local chapter officers were the ones whose goals aligned with the national goals of exclusivity and exclusion. The local chapter could have been a raging success, but if it didn't have the right kind of members, the national Delta Zeta bureaucracy would still have regarded it as a failure. In that kind of environment, the Cynthia Mengeses get rewarded for making bad decisions.

By: Partial Law

Partial Law — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:23:44 -0800

This article and the responses make me sad, because Greek Life has the potential to do great things both for its members and for university communities in general. Sometimes it succeeds, often it fails (spectacularly), but I guess now I know how the XTIANS feel.

By: ericb

ericb — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:30:42 -0800

The Delta Zeta Creed

To the world, I promise temperance and insight and courage, To crusade for justice, To seek the truth and defend it always: To those whom my life may touch in slight measure, May I give graciously Of what is mine; To my friends, Understanding and appreciation; To those closer ones, Love that is ever steadfast; To my mind, Growth; To myself, Faith That I may walk truly In the light of the Flame.

–– Dorothy Mumford Williams, Alpha Zeta (1939)

By: breezeway

breezeway — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:51:45 -0800

Greek life is all about making connections so you can graduate and get a job based not on your merits, but on who you threw keggers and hazed pledges with. Valuable lesson for American undergrads: it's not who you are, it's who you fuck. Getting in is a popularity contest, and popularity contests suck, especially when winning is all about how pretty, rich, or white you are, or how many of your forebears were sisters or brothers. But hey, when you finish college you'll find that America is spiderwebbed with old-boy (and -girl) networks just waiting to include you, and exclude the poor ugly unaffiliated. Hooray for these bastions of social control, may they long rot in hell.

By: pineapple

pineapple — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:23:00 -0800

Ah yes, the ever-popular "MeFites hate fraternal organizations" pile-on again. (See previously, 1 , 2, 3, 4... and likely more I just didn't turn up in a 2-minute search.) There are over 100 incorporated national Greek-letter organizations in North America, representing over 700,000 students and countless alumni/ae. What Delta Zeta in particular did here is atrocious, but the kneejerk tarring with the same broad brush of EVARY! fraternal organization EVAR!!! is getting tiresome. No one can possibly get a quality education at a university with a Greek system? The clubs at the Ivies shouldn't be equated because they are "off-campus"? The actions of the DePauw DZs make them the equivalent of the KKK? No one else but stupid 'Mericans would ever stoop to such ridiculous behavior? Greek girls should be once again the targets of serial killers? Are those of you with the kneejerk stereotyping implying with a straight face that this is the first time a person was ever excluded from a group for not being attractive enough? Or are you just taking your personal pound of flesh here because it's just too easy a target to resist? I see loads of anecdotal "I wasn't a member but I know all about Greek life because..." Here's some reality, since there's an alarming lack of balance in this thread: I am an alumnae of a national sorority, and my club was and is about friendship, academic support and mentoring, philanthropy, leadership training, a cheap convenient place to live on campus, a microcosm of community that helped me adjust to a school of 40,000+ students, and of course, some kick-ass parties. No one would ever consider lobbying for or against a potential member based on her physical appearance; it would have been an egregious gaffe. I was never hazed, nor was any sorority member I personally knew -- in my club or others. I knew of hazing among the fraternities but my campus was extremely active in trying to educate and eliminate hazing, as well as alcohol abuse. In fact, hazing was much more prominent among the university-sanctioned non-Greek "service clubs"... thanks to whom a kid was actually killed in the late 90's. Diversity was cherished; my house was the first on our campus (in a Greek community over 100 years old), to pledge an African-American member, and also the first to pledge a disabled member. Over the course of my undergrad experience I donated hundreds of community service hours that I would likely not have otherwise been motivated to do as a non-Greek. And I truly hope that my own club publicly decries what DZ National did, because what's reprehensible is that it wasn't the Greek students themselves who kicked the girls out, but the adults in national leadership roles. College kids will always make mistakes, but they should be guided by sensible mentors demonstrating character, instead of encouraged in poor choices. I thought I was done being surprised at the overwrought reactions that inevitably pop up around here when any topic fraternity-related comes up, but I was wrong. Suffice it to say that if this were any other sociocultural group with a tradition of glaring media spotlights being shone on the relatively rare examples of bad behavior, plenty of you would fall all over each other rushing to defend it. mediareport, adipocere, and grimmelm -- thanks for remaining clear-headed.

By: Four-Eyed Girl

Four-Eyed Girl — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:10:38 -0800

pineapple, there was at least one "I was a member, and I know all about Greek life because..." I was one of them, and I know I saw more.

By: Partial Law

Partial Law — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:18:56 -0800

All generalizations are bad.

By: brain cloud

brain cloud — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:19:54 -0800

The national Delta Zeta organization seems to have been a driving force behind the purge, and the local chapter officers were the ones whose goals aligned with the national goals of exclusivity and exclusion. grimmelm - in the NYT article it mentions that at least 2 of the officers, the secretary & the president of the chapter, were among the ones asked to leave.

"Elizabeth Haneline, a senior computer science major who was among those evicted, returned to the house that afternoon and found some women in tears. Even the chapter’s president had been kicked out, Ms. Haneline said, while “other women who had done almost nothing for the chapter were asked to stay."

If the leadership of the chapter can be blamed for anything at all, it was in not standing up to the national organization when they saw the writing on the wall. I've never been in a sororoity though, so I have no idea if this is easier said than done.

By: breezeway

breezeway — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:52:57 -0800

Pineapple, those things maybe true, as may be the things said by others. I never paid much attention to Greeks until after college, when the real (real-world) usefulness of a pledge pin begins. Being a member of the same fraternal organization as the guy you interview with will get you a job over a more qualified candidate. This is true, and any brother or sister will admit it. Now if, as I and many others have observed, race, class, and attractiveness lump into the intangible qualities Greek organizations are looking for, then later hiring preferences based on fraternity or sorority membership are discriminatory, however friendly and supportive they may seem to you. I have, as I often do, overstated my observations into a generalization about Greeks. Of course every single group shouldn't be tarred with the Delta Zeta brush; perhaps only most of them should. But saying that the virtues of the many render the faults of the few insignificant is just as stupid as saying the reverse. Especially when most everyone here, detractor or defender, speaks from experience and observation. Thanks for being so clear-headed.

By: grimmelm

grimmelm — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:24:18 -0800

Thanks, brain cloud. I should have put that better. As the The DePauw article made clear, most of the pressure came from the national organization, which I think we agree made it much harder for the local chapter to do right.

By: pineapple

pineapple — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:09:20 -0800

re breezeway: "Being a member of the same fraternal organization as the guy you interview with will get you a job over a more qualified candidate. This is true, and any brother or sister will admit it. ...hiring preferences based on fraternity or sorority membership are discriminatory, however friendly and supportive they may seem to you." I have never once received, attempted to receive, or known anyone who has received, a job or other professional benefit based on having been in a sorority. It simply does not happen that often, that one is interviewing for a job with someone who was a member of his or her club. In fact, I've only once in 15 years ever even been interviewed for a job by someone who was Greek at all. (Yes, I got the job... but I was the only applicant.) Refute me with numbers if you can find some, but being an actual Greek alumna with actual experience on the matter, it's my opinion that this is one of those "perks" assigned to Greeks, which doesn't actually occur but which non-Greeks inflate in the interest of continually bashing the system. (And to be fair, also inflated by Greeks during recruiting as they try to suggest there will be post-grad benefits to pledging, which there really aren't.) The Greek Man is not trying to keep you down. Let it go. Regarding your allegation of racial discrimination in Greek membership selection, it's far more complicated than a non-Greek with a drive-by opinion can grasp. The "black" and "white" Greek systems are vastly different, do not seek to integrate, and have different value systems and programs. These links might help. No one stated that the faults of the few were insignificant. I think the Delta Zeta situation here was disgusting, and said so. "Everyone here speaks from experience"? Are we in the same thread? How many people here have actually been through the initiation of an NPC/NHPC/IFC club? Compared to the number that are slagging all Greeks? Or, does the "observation" part count enough: "I 'observed' this article and have formed a half-cocked opinion, therefore my knowledge base is the equal of anyone else's?" re Four-Eyed Girl: Yes, there were a couple of us commenting who actually have been in the system, and only one of us with a positive experience. Hardly creates a balanced perspective. It's not that I think only Greeks are qualified to have an opinion. I just wish the default on MeFi wasn't that any Greek org topic is fair play for all manners of ridiculous stereotyping and bashing. re brain cloud: "If the leadership of the chapter can be blamed for anything at all, it was in not standing up to the national organization when they saw the writing on the wall." In my experience, it would be pretty difficult for the local org to stand up to national. In hindsight, the wronged students' best bet to prevent the evictions would have been seeking help from the university (which would have some actual muscle with the national org -- the dean of students can force a Greek club to do pretty much whatever it wants). Still, the power structure varies from club to club and campus to campus, so no telling for sure without being involved in some way. I predict that DZ national is going to have to close the DePauw chapter entirely (this will kill their recruitment efforts for years), and fire the officers who greenlighted the members' evictions. The people who let this happen can infect the entire organization, and I suspect that there will be pressure behind the scenes from NPC for DZ to amputate. What's galling to me as a Greek is that the sorority didn't kick them out outright, i.e. revoke their membership and pull their pins... but is forcing the girls to take early alumna status. So, in essence, they can't be active in their own local Greek community, can't attend meetings, can't be involved in any way... but they'll get hit up multiple times a year for financial contributions! If it were me, I know I'd think about shooting the finger and turning in my badge... but if I read the articles correctly, many of the girls were former officers, who are likely to feel (misplaced?) loyalty, and not want to disavow and smear the 50,000 other sisters in the national org, for one bunch of bad apples. I think if I were one of the girls involved, I'd get the others together and quietly threaten to DZ national that I was going to sue unless they made the reparations I wanted, including publicly denouncing what happened, and instituting a mandatory education effort about image discrimination in all chapters nationwide as part of the new member curriculum.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:13:59 -0800

Being a member of the same fraternal organization as the guy you interview with will get you a job over a more qualified candidate. This is true, and any brother or sister will admit it. And yet unionism is frowned upon.

By: normy

normy — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:13:58 -0800

I have never once received, attempted to receive, or known anyone who has received, a job or other professional benefit based on having been in a sorority. I have no numbers, either, but I've seen it happen. Forgive me if it leads me to think the system is old-boy/girl back-scratching elitism. Somehow, I doubt anyone, least of all the Greeks, are collecting any statistics. So that means it doesn't happen? it's far more complicated than a non-Greek with a drive-by opinion can grasp It's not that I think only Greeks are qualified to have an opinion. You're not helping your cause here. Anyhow, as a non-US college graduate, perhaps someone can help me understand. Proponents of this system (to my drive-by, opinionated eyes), claim lots of benefits to it - friendships, parties, good works and charity, convenient accommodation, honor, integrity, fellowship... Fine. Why is the fraternity/sorority system necessary for this? When I went to college such things happened and were available to those who sought them without the requirement for an off-the-shelf, monopolized delivery mechanism. What does the system uniquely offer that can't be provided by any other means and without subservience to an institutionalized group identity?

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:18:02 -0800

And yet unionism is frowned upon. Er, trade unions are quite widespread as legally protected entities, and enjoy virtual monopolies over certain markets. Only the most tortured comparisons exist between this and collegiate nepotism.

By: breezeway

breezeway — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:22:43 -0800

What I'm saying, pineapple, is that your experience as one sorority member speaks as clearly and generally truly as anyone's individual experience at a school dominated by Greeks, or in a job where Greeks from the same organization hire and promote one another, or at a school without Greek organizations at all. You want numbers? That's ridiculous. We're talking about experiences here, and your experiences are as valid as mine, and no more. You want specific names of people I've spoken to, workplaces I've been in, where preferential treatment for fellow Greeks has been the case? And you think my not supplying numbers or names means I'm lying or delusional? That's silly. You have the experience of being in a sorority, and it was a great experience for you. I have friends who say the same thing. I also have friends who were miserable in fraternities, who were hazed; I know people who put up with what they considered nonsense because they could and did use fraternal alumni connections to get themselves job interviews and preferential treatment at big law firms in big cities. Lack of numbers doesn't make these observations untrue. Neither does your assertion that they're false. As for the whole idea that Greek organizations are a society apart, and the lack of integration isn't a problem, I'd say, on campus, sure, no problem. But if frat brothers in unintegrated organizations use alumni connections to get prime jobs out of college (which I've seen), then they're extending that separate segregated society into the working world of society at large. That happens, and that's bad. It seems important to you to say that the only people who really know what fraternities and sororities are like are people who were actually sisters and brothers, as if the effects of Greek life stopped at the door of the sorority or frat house. Greek societies can have a stifling effect on the social lives of non-Greek students, and not just because they're less likely to volunteer for charity drives or build a float for the homecoming parade. Some people read books and articles that inform them about things all the time. But these observations don't count for you, because they're from outsiders. That's the sort of thinking that leads the unaffiliated to resentment. Like I said earlier, I think you're right about a lot of things, and generalizations are certainly on the wing in this thread. But your experience and your observations don't negate the experience and observations of others just because you're a member. I'm making generalizations attacking certain aspects of the Greek system that I've experienced and observed; you're making generalizations defending certain aspects of the Greek system you've experienced and observed. Nobody has a monopoly on numbers here, and nobody needs to let anything go. We just disagree. That doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong, or that I'm necessarily right. Our mileage varies.

By: Partial Law

Partial Law — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:50:49 -0800

Normy: What does the system uniquely offer that can't be provided by any other means [...]? I'm going to try to answer this based on the assumption that you were genuinely asking. I don't intend to change anyone's mind, but I thought I'd explain why I value Greek Life. I speak only to my own fraternity experience, as it's the only one I've had. Think of it like MetaFilter. Everything you get here, you could get somewhere else on the internet, but you'd need to get them individually and spend quite a bit of time and effort seeking them out. Want good political discussions? Dig through dozens of dKos/LGF clones until you find what you're looking for. Want interesting links? Boingboing, digg, reddit, are all there, plus Google for what you're specifically interested in. Want some questions answered? Sure Yahoo Answers sucks, but you can generally find a specific message board for any given topic, register an account, participate in the community for a while, and then ask your question and get a pretty good answer. Want to meet people who aren't just like you but with whom you may have common ground? Social networking sites abound. But isn't it great that you can find all of that in one place? Where as soon as you join, all these opportunities are available to you, along with a strong sense of community and a shared history? That's how I feel about my fraternity. It was like living in a real-life MetaFilter, except without the hazing that sometimes happens here in MetaTalk. I could have gotten the leadership skills from other clubs or organizations. I could have made friends elsewhere. I could have lived elsewhere. I could have gone and done my own community service. As a matter of fact, I did do all of these things outside my fraternity. Just like being a member here doesn't stop you from going out and reading Boingboing or posting at the CarTalk forums, being a member of my fraternity didn't stop me from experiencing everything that college had to offer outside of the Greek system. Greek Life is not for everyone, and there is plenty wrong with the way many chapters exist and operate today. I feel the same way about many fraternity and sorority chapters as I imagine many Christians feel about Jerry Falwell, or how most Muslims feel about al Qaeda. They make the papers more, but that doesn't make them representative.

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:52:15 -0800

This article and the responses make me sad, because Greek Life has the potential to do great things both for its members and for university communities in general. Greek life great for the University community? I suppose you could view throwing keggers and objectifying women as great. But I think most people would (I hope) disagree.

By: ericb

ericb — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:58:14 -0800

Persecution of the Greeks -- oh, wait...

By: pineapple

pineapple — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:59:13 -0800

breezeway: wrt "It seems important to you to say that the only people who really know what fraternities and sororities are like are people who were actually sisters and brothers, as if the effects of Greek life stopped at the door of the sorority or frat house." Not even a tiny bit. Sorry you're reading it that way. In fact, you're twisting a LOT of my words around to make your arguments, and I'd rather you stop. I never said that it's okay that white and ethnic clubs don't integrate; I said that it's not a function of racism in member selection process on behalf of whites (which is what you alluded). (Your point about how the orgs' self-segregation might have an effect in the workforce is intriguing, though.) I never said you needed to provide numbers; I merely invited you to disprove me if you did have some. I never accused you of being delusional, either implicitly or explicitly. I never said that your experiences were false. I said that people inflate this "preferential treatment" thing to an epidemic proportion. I'm sure it might feel epidemic if it happened to you personally, though. Let's remember that the point came up only after you generalized that all Greeks are guilty of giving preferential treatment to candidates that are fellow alums. My refuting your allegation was just that, nothing more. Yes, my experience was different than yours. I don't think I'm "more right" than anyone, and yes, anyone can have any opinion and nobody is any more or less informed than anyone else, yadda yadda. My point has ever been that I dislike the pattern I see emerging here, that off-the-cuff judgmental stereotypes are okay to slather onto some groups but not others. Unfortunately for your argument, the overall tone in this thread is that "Greeks are big fat poopyheads! Ted Bundy! KKK! George Bush! Frats should die!" And it's continually unbecoming to the community; that's what is important to me to say. Why can't we talk about the specific case in the OP, and even other similar cases, and even the much more interesting and broader issue of image discrimination... without it having to be "my generalization is betterer than yours!!!"? normy, you're pithy and all, but by merely asking for some perspective, you're separating yourself from a drive-by. And, it's worth noting that I used that term specifically to point out that it's ignorant to flippantly accuse Greeks of racism in their member selection -- when the historically ethnic groups are just as likely to self-segregate as the historically Caucasian. I never accused anyone with a differing opinion from mine of being an inferior poster. Relax. On preview: MrBobaFett! Cool! Thanks for contributing to the problem. Normy asked a question and someone in a position to offer perspective answered it. Way to just reduce that answer -- whether you agree with it or not -- to another steaming generalization.

By: Partial Law

Partial Law — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:01:14 -0800

MrBobaFett, allow me to introduce you to Mr. Merriam and Mr. Webster.

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:13:39 -0800

I was never hazed, nor was any sorority member I personally knew Doesn't sound like a Greek Sorority to me. Maybe you should re-evaluate. I truly hope that my own club publicly decries what DZ National did And there is a huge sticking point. The likely won't, like most other Greeks. This one of the big problems, when a Frat gets out of line the rest of the Greek system does not rise up and defy them. They do not revoke their charters, they do not go out of their way to disavow those who are "bad apples". As such, those bad apples have ruined the bunch. You know in all honesty the KKK started out as a service oriented fraternal organization that took care of widows of Civil War soldiers. However that doesn't change the fact of what they are now. The KKK is tarnished and can not be recovered. It now belongs to the bad apples. Time to burn bridges and make a new club.

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:23:36 -0800

Why is the fraternity/sorority system necessary for this? It's not! :) and that's really the whole point isn't it? All the "good" from the Greek system can be found outside of the Greek system. Which is why one should ditch the tarnished Greek system and invoke the good in a new and independent system.

By: pineapple

pineapple — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:30:51 -0800

This one of the big problems, when a Frat gets out of line the rest of the Greek system does not rise up and defy them. They do not revoke their charters, they do not go out of their way to disavow those who are "bad apples". As such, those bad apples have ruined the bunch. I dare not say you are wrong, since all posters are equally informed and knowledgeable. But maybe this or this will help you become knowledgeable-er. Also, I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'll write letters to both my own national org and to DZ's, encouraging them to decry and punish accordingly, and encourage my other alum friends to do the same. All the "good" from the Greek system can be found outside of the Greek system. Which is why one should ditch the tarnished Greek system and invoke the good in a new and independent system. Oh, this should be good... will the new system be made up of clubs? Separate ones? How will people get in? Will it be free to join? Who gets to decide the infrastructure? Somehow, I doubt anyone, least of all the Greeks, are collecting any statistics. So that means it doesn't happen? Nope, but it means that my anecdotal experience (that it never happens) is just as valuable as yours (that it's happened occasionally and therefore must be rampant).

By: pineapple

pineapple — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:33:09 -0800

You know in all honesty the KKK started out as a service oriented fraternal organization that took care of widows of Civil War soldiers. (isn't there some sub-clause of Godwin's at work here?)

By: ericb

ericb — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:41:24 -0800

Groucho Marx: "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member."

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:41:44 -0800

Partial Law Oh is that what potential means... I see. Then let me re-consider my snark. Hmmm.... Nope still going with the original snark, that clearly indicates that I do not believe the potential is there. pineapple The new system is anything you want. Any little club you choose! It's amazing you can create social groups or service groups without belonging to National Organizations! You don't have to pay dues, or write charters, or be hazed. You can get 5 people together if that's all you want that have a common interest and work together on that interest. As a former president of Delta Psi Omega (Pi Rho cast), I was never hazed, nor had a bad experience as part of that chapter of that honor society. However seeing all the corruption and general bad taste spread thru the rest of the Greek community I had no problem walking away and joining in a parallel campus organization that did the same sort of things, had the same people as members and all the positive experiences but got to ditch the negative connotations that went with those three Greek letters.

By: pineapple

pineapple — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:47:06 -0800

Got it. So.... it's the national organization that causes the problems... and having charters... and the Greek letters themselves? Is there a limit on membership? Like, can I have more than 5 people? At what number does it get too big and bureaucratic and therefore, A Problem? Do we nuke them at that point?

By: breezeway

breezeway — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:06:38 -0800

Well, pineapple, we can disagree about who's twisting whom forever. You've done a fine job throughout this thread clarifying points you muddied earlier, and it's clear I misunderstood you. I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. My head just isn't very clear.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:10:11 -0800

Why is the fraternity/sorority system necessary for this? It isn't. Like most things, fraternities and sororities do not offer anything really unique. Can you name any activity or organization that offers something that really can't be obtained by any other means? That said, there are real differences between a greek organization and a group of friends who live together. One is simple scale. Thirty or forty people can do lots of things that seven or eight can't get done. A house with 16 other people in it offers more and wider opportunities for interaction at any given moment than one with 5 other people does. Another is continuity over time; fraternities persist, but a bunch of friends living together disbands when they graduate. On the one hand, this means that current members can benefit from alumni donations and the like. On the other hand, it means that current members have some reason to do more long-term planning and to do things that won't really pay off for a few years since they know that they can come back and get some benefit from whatever it is as alumni. A third is formal organization, with formal membership and dues and all that shit. Having a good idea of how much money is going to be coming in makes planning for a year a lot easier than just passing the hat whenever you want to do something. Having dues makes expectations of contributions clear and up-front instead of, again, just passing the hat whenever you want to do something. Having formal membership makes it easier to figure out who gets a vote and who doesn't, and keeps it from being a subject of debate. Obviously there are ways to get any, some, or all of the useful or good things that a fraternity or sorority can offer in some other way. Likewise, there are ways to get most (but not all) of the useful or good things from legal marriage by concluding the appropriate set of legal agreements with each other. This ability doesn't mean that marriage isn't often the most obvious and convenient way to get those things, and it doesn't mean that people are fools or stupid or otherwise less than you because they just got married instead of writing a long contract and giving each other power of attorney for each other and so on.

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:02:47 -0800

ROU_Xenophobe This is only a half answer. You are pointing out the advantage of a larger group or institution over a small loose group. However there are other large groups and institutions besides the Greek system. You can have large groups, dues, budgets and organization without having to carry the stigma of Greeks.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:22:06 -0800

You can have large groups, dues, budgets and organization without having to carry the stigma of Greeks. Yes, you can. This is one reason why I included the sentence "Obviously there are ways to get any, some, or all of the useful or good things that a fraternity or sorority can offer in some other way." in my comment. Was this actually unclear or hard to parse?

By: ubersturm

ubersturm — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:37:56 -0800

brain cloud: it can be very hard for a local frat or sorority to stick up for themselves against the national org. For example, I know quite a few people who were members of a certain frat at my undergraduate institution. Now, they were awesome guys, flamboyantly geeky, loved to build stuff, had an inexplicable love for the color purple, had no problems with gay brothers, etc. They wanted to go co-ed, in fact, and in many ways would've been happier if they could've dissociated from the national org (as several other ex-frats at my university had already done, becoming independent living groups and co-ops.) However, with finances, ownership of the house, and so on tangled up with the national org, it would've been very difficult to become independent without taking a financial hit, risking losing the house (which they'd put a _lot_ of work into), etc. Plus, when you dissociate from national, you may lose some of the advantages that ROU_Xenophobe mentions. This isn't a general defense of frats/sororities, plenty of which live up to their sterotypes. However, some of them don't - they actually take the brotherhood/sisterhood thing seriously, and are full of diverse, interesting people. Despite this, they often find themselves stuck in a system where it's very hard to fight the less progressive members of the national org.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:21:07 -0800

Was this actually unclear or hard to parse? He's not even paying attention, ROU_Xenophobe; each answer's just another excuse for him to vent his bias. Not much point in anyone arguing with Boba in this thread anymore.

By: MrBobaFett

MrBobaFett — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:26:03 -0800

He's not even paying attention, ROU_Xenophobe; each answer's just another excuse for him to vent his bias. Not much point in anyone arguing with Boba in this thread anymore. I am paying attention. I listen to and consider every point put forward. Just because I have not been presented with an argument that has been able to change my mind doesn't mean I'm not listening. It just means I haven't heard anything convincing. Pardon me for having an opinion that I have long considered.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:24:17 -0800

Yeah, I think we got it by now, Boba.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:35:23 -0800

"I just wish the default on MeFi wasn't that any Greek org topic is fair play for all manners of ridiculous stereotyping and bashing." That's true of pretty much any article posted to Metafilter anymore. To add my own anecdotal evidence: Last fall, a frat on campus finally made the communities radar when some members, during a rush, decided that they didn't want some guy to pledge. So they hauled him outside the house and beat the living hell out of him. It's a difficult position for the university community, noting that this frat is an independent that has existed as long as the university, and due to the rules of our campus is grandfathered in; no frat unaffiliated with a national organization can be officially recognized anymore, aside from this one. They do have a proud tradition, and have included many local luminaries. However, they've fallen on, shall we say, stupid times— their gpa has been low enough that they've been on and off probation for years, and have repeatedly gotten busted for underage drinking. So, there's been a fair amount of controversy within the Greek judicial system. A lot of folks want them gone, as the current batch is fairly clearly retarded. But there's also a sympathy due to the historical standing of the frat. Most of the movement has come from the fact that the university is threatening to remove all self-governance from the frats if this one isn't discaplined (here's a link to a staff edit I wrote about this when it came up). A lot of the guys I've gone to school with have been in frats. For the most part, they're hard working over-achievers, and usually a bit socially awkward. I can understand the desire for like-minded friends, though a frat's never gonna be for me (and I think, as an uber-senior, I've waited too long to form a secret society). So, yeah, I wish that the discussion of this wasn't so much on the hurf-durf-paddle-eaters level, but I can understand it as a perception outside the Greek community.

By: ericb

ericb — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:49:24 -0800

MSNBC on Depaw/Delta Zeta [video]. The segment contains an interview with Alexandra Robbins, author of Pledged: The Secret Life of Sororities.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:26:52 -0800

A fraternity is going to be hitting the news, too. Phi Kappa Psi was very likely into gang-rape a few years back.

By: ericb

ericb — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:02:49 -0800

A fraternity is going to be hitting the news, too. Yeah -- the story is getting wide-play in the press and blogs.

By: pineapple

pineapple — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:07:26 -0800

~~Phi Kappa Psi~~ One member (not all 50,000+ members of the fraternity) ~~was very likely into gang-rape~~ confessed to date-raping one young woman ~~a few years back~~ 22 years ago. Fixed that for you. That one AP story (the writing of which offended my sensibilities -- as breathless, overwrought and needlessly sensational, to the point of being voyeuristic) is getting picked up... but I'm not seeing any big news trend. And, studies have demonstrated that date rape incidence is the same among Greek and non-Greek men, so it would be a true shame if this story helped society continue to blame fraternities disproportionately for the problem, when entire college communities need to receive the same education efforts. (Actually it should begin in junior high, but that's a rant for another thread) Sadly, I'm sure plenty of people are going to read my aggregate posts here and assume me a Greek apologist, when I'm actually not.

By: dw

dw — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:23:00 -0800

I mainly came by to note the bizzareness of DePauw trumpeting the recent media coverage. I guess DePauw just doesn't make the news that often. But let me say this: At Colorado, the Greek system was weak and really not part of the campus system. The university couldn't really touch them (the houses were all off-campus and the Pan-Hellenic didn't have much power with UCSU back then), but at the same time they didn't have a strong connection with the student population, usually only making an appearance during Homecoming. I think it was something like 1 in 7 women were Greek, while it was 1 in 12 men -- the woefully small black population at CU was 1 in 11. The sororities were mostly about community and connections. YMMV, but most of my female friends in college were in sororities and at the same time laid-back and down-to-earth. (True story: I was talking to one of these sorority girls at the Homecoming game. "I'll be back for the second half. I need to go down on the field in a few minutes." "Why?" "Oh, I'm homecoming queen." "(looks askance) What?") The fraternities were all drinking clubs. They made the frat boy stereotype look like a teetotaler. I had no desire to be part of that. But, of course, YMMV. My youngest brother was a KA. We older brothers labeled the "KKKA," but he was always quick to note that they had more black members than a number of well known frats on campus. I think he spent most of college drunk, at least until his junior year when he woke up and started studying. And I know one of his first post-colelge jobs came from being a KA, so the connections helped him. OTOH, being in a fraternity got him to break out of his introverted shell and eventually to become a hell of a salesman, mainly by learning how to make connections, being honest, and always treating the customer with respect -- all things he learned by being on the governing board of his frat. I don't like fraternities and refused to join one. But there are many positives to joining one.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:43:48 -0800

You must have skipped the paragraphs about the gang-rape investigation. The insinuation is that the guy who is being prosecuted is narcing on his frat buddies. it will be interesting to see how the story spreads through the media. It has been picked up by newspapers on either side of the coast. The media keeps an eye out for this sort of sensationalistic story. It could grow legs.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:53:35 -0800

(as of now, 214 newspapers printed the story.)

By: pineapple

pineapple — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:12:40 -0800

it will be interesting to see how the story spreads through the media. It has been picked up by newspapers on either side of the coast. The media keeps an eye out for this sort of sensationalistic story. It could grow legs. I hope it gets picked up all over the place. I hope it generates discussions about rape and the trauma it inflicts, that it never ever goes away. I hope that date rape education efforts see huge growth, as well as hoping that the survivor's STARS program gets loads of attention and support. What I don't hope is that people read the story and miss the forest for the trees. Phi Psi is not the story; William Beebe and Liz Seccuro are... and the woeful incidence of rape under-reporting... and that date rape still happens and will keep happening until we educate teens.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:22:07 -0800

217 newspapers today, so it looks like it's a slow start. Except for the implication that several Phi Psi members were into rape that year, I imagine the frat will remain a footnote.

By: pineapple

pineapple — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:38:25 -0800

In case anyone is still following this: Delta Zeta's letter emailed to other sororities' national offices, dated Monday (scroll down to "statement from national president"). And, DePauw's rebuttal statement, issued today. My interpretations, respectively: DZ: "It wasn't really our fault, the members misunderstood and DePauw had our hands tied." DePauw: "Not."

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 04:30:32 -0800

So pineapple, what you're saying is that the greek system is an important part of nepotistic, discriminatory hiring practices, and as someone else said, exists to perpetuate the discrimination practiced in college into the adult workplace. That's no different than hiring preferences based on religious affiliation. And it's not just a few bad apples. First, why *is* it that every time we hear about a fraternity it's because of a rape or a drunken death or one of these sillier stories? You're saying it's like Iraq, and no one ever tells the good stories. Right, because the bad stories are the *news.* And there is an awful lot of such "news" about the greek system, a regular drumbeat of perversity and corruption and hatefulness and bigotry, week in and week out. Like the bombings in Iraq. You are an apologist for the greeks. Those organizations have no place in a modern university, and any forward thinking university would sever any existing formal ties with a system that is bound to mean lawsuits and deaths and rapes in the future. In theory, higher education is about merit, with a few obvious exceptions. The greek system is one of the big ones, along with legacy admissions and certain forms of affirmative action which have other, compensating value for the modern university. Universities get nothing but grief from greeks, and a few alumni dollars that would probably come anyway without the greek system, from the alumni who leave school not feeling alienated and traumatized by the kind of shit we're discussing here. It is patently obvious that the greek system is racist, sexist, homophobic, and nepotistic. But what the heck, it's all in good fun.

By: pineapple

pineapple — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 06:48:06 -0800

fourcheesemac, you're so entrenched in a negative mind-set that there's no dialogue to have with you on this, and your opening paragraph is almost trolling. Feel free to have your opinion, and I'll have mine. "any forward thinking university would sever any existing formal ties with a system that is bound to mean lawsuits and deaths and rapes in the future" There are thousands of universities with Greek systems, including some of the most acclaimed in the world. But hey, you should just let those university presidents hear your opinion; likely they've just never taken the time to consider the issue, and they'll just close the systems up post-haste!

By: pineapple

pineapple — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:27:38 -0800

(And, I'd only be a true apologist if I were denying or refuting all the arguments. I'm really only taking issue here with the kneejerk stereotypical irrational ones.)

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 20:22:44 -0800

Newsweek: Rules of Attraction

"Did Delta Zeta cull all but the prettiest sisters from its DePauw University chapter? The sorority's former president on why she was asked to leave."

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 20:24:32 -0800

People Magazine Writes of "Expulsions" Carried Out by Delta Zeta National.

By: pineapple

pineapple — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:06:33 -0800

In case anyone is still following this, and in the interest of documenting the later happenings, DePauw University has sent a letter via email to its alumni today, announcing that they are severing all ties with Delta Zeta.

"...As a result, it has become clear that the values of DePauw University and those of the Delta Zeta National Sorority are incompatible. Therefore, effective immediately, I have severed future ties with the Delta Zeta national, and I am including here my letter of notification to them. I wish to emphasize that our problem is with Delta Zeta national, not its local members, who have handled themselves with extraordinary poise and maturity in difficult circumstances, nor our Delta Zeta alumnae, many of whom have expressed dismay about their national's behavior and support for DePauw. We will continue to work closely with these students and alumnae as we go forward."

~ Robert G. Bottoms, President The story, full letter to alumni, and letter to Delta Zeta decrying their actions can all be found here. On March 1, the National Panhellenic Conference emailed a letter to alumnae members indicating that it is standing behind Delta Zeta, which I found disappointing. (I found the full text online here, scroll down to the logo)

By: ericb

ericb — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:59:04 -0800

Newsweek: The Great Sorority Purge.