Is Israel Falling Apart ?

March 4, 2007 11:20 PM

...A few days ago the chief of the Israeli police resigned after an investigation that found several of Israel’s highest police officers guilty of corruption and negligence. This came within a week of the forced resignation of Israel’s Chief of Staff from the military because of the fiascos of the second Lebanon war... some ten days after Israel’s minister of justice was convicted of sexual assault while on duty... after Israel’s president – who holds a largely symbolic position – resigned temporarily following charges of rape and sexual misconduct. ....several other investigations are still pending, not least two or three directed at the Prime Minister himself, Ehud Olmert, concerning corruption and favoritism... Suddenly the Palestinians and the Hizbullah, and even Iranian nukes, have taken a back seat: Israel does indeed seem in danger of imploding from within, at least as a viable democracy.

Is Israel Falling Apart ?
posted by y2karl (55 comments total)

Cops are corrupt the world over. Just think how big of an asshole one has to be to dedicate their lives to destroying lives mindlessly.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 11:33 PM on March 4, 2007 [3 favorites]

It's all about the real estate. And it's apparently commonplace among the apes. Even chimps and lowland gorillas fight murderous battles over territory. (Who says we aren't descended from apes? Similar property vaules!)
posted by metasonix at 11:44 PM on March 4, 2007

I don't think this is a mortal threat to Israel, but it's probably a pretty serious threat to the party that's in power right now.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 11:55 PM on March 4, 2007

Israel has been a questionable democracy for some time. This was published in 2002.
posted by j-urb at 11:57 PM on March 4, 2007

Thanks for this, y2karl. I hadn't heard of the Russian oligarch Arkadi Gaydamak before. He seems like a fascinating, somewhat sinister character. I'm curious to see know how effective his efforts have been to position himself as a player in Isreali politics.
posted by maryh at 12:02 AM on March 5, 2007

Cops are corrupt the world over. Just think how big of an asshole one has to be to dedicate their lives to destroying lives mindlessly.

Because, god knows, snarky retards on blogs wouldn't have any trouble surviving in a world without police.
posted by Afroblanco at 12:07 AM on March 5, 2007 [9 favorites]

The police don't actually protect anyone. Or else the news wouldn't be a litany of "rape, murder, theft". Police simply enforce the will of the state. Really, the 50%-60% of prison inmates that are in prison for non-violent (including theft and fraud) crimes, but instead of selling or doing drugs, are not a threat to me. They are as much of a threat as the bartender serving alcohol and the prostitute selling herself.

If someone wants me dead, the police aren't going to protect me. They will however file a nice report.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 12:25 AM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]

By the way, how are the police doing in Iraq and North Korea?
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 12:26 AM on March 5, 2007

Cops are a necessary evil, with emphasis on necessary, and evil.
posted by king walnut at 12:27 AM on March 5, 2007

Don't cheer just yet.
posted by Krrrlson at 12:28 AM on March 5, 2007

I was thinking of posting this, but I didn't have the guts :P

One thing I didn't like it was that towards the middle the guy makes sweeping generalizations about Israeli politics, and constructs a general theory about it, namely that people like "bulldozers" who don't mind breaking the law in order to get things done (and enrich themselves). I don't know if he does enough to support the idea that Israelis really thought that way in the past. And what changed recently to cause a ramp up in enforcement?

I'd heard the general who dumped his stock portfolio before the invasion of Lebanon, and about the president raping eight women (wtf?!) but I didn't know about the depth of the crisis there.

I think for most Americans public corruption is more of an annoyance then any sort of existential risk. After all, American politicians have had varying levels of corruption for all of our history, and there is a sense that the U.S. economy, and security through sheer size have too much momentum to get thrown off by a little incompetence. In the end George Bush won't have ruined the nation, although it is a setback.

But for a small country, besieged on all sides by enemies a crisis of government could be pretty traumatic.

These supposedly non-democratically inclined leaders might seem worrying but I wonder if Israel's democracy hasn't actually been more of a hindrance to their progress towards a solution. It's pretty easy to kick out leaders they don't like and so people are never able to undertake unpopular or controversial positions. If they'd had a dictatorship, they would have either made piece with the Palestinians, or kicked them out.
posted by delmoi at 12:33 AM on March 5, 2007

Cops are a necessary evil, with emphasis on necessary, and evil.

I prefer for my necessary evil to be private, that way evil is actually accountable. The state should control courts, but police forces can be privatized. That would act as an additional check on the government.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 12:36 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Because, god knows, snarky retards on blogs wouldn't have any trouble surviving in a world without police.

Well, it depends on where you live, doesn't it? I would imagine that around here police enforcement could drop by a hundred fold without impacting my life in an negative way, beyond an increased risk of getting into an accident with a drunk driver. I mean other then drunk driving, drug dealing, and domestic abuse there is almost no crime. Obviously drunk driving and domestic abuse are bad things but they can be avoided by a minor change in behavior (like not driving around at 2:00 am on the weekend, and not dating psychos). Drug dealing has no negative impact on my life.

Not that this has anything to do with the topic at hand..
posted by delmoi at 12:40 AM on March 5, 2007

I prefer for my necessary evil to be private, that way evil is actually accountable. The state should control courts, but police forces can be privatized. That would act as an additional check on the government.

You're out of your mind. Private police forces would only enforce laws benefiting rich people. Also, that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
posted by delmoi at 12:42 AM on March 5, 2007 [8 favorites]

(1) They're having an investigation into the activities of their president and prime minister. (2) As a result of the investigation, people are resigning.

That's two points on which they're doing better, as a democracy, than the USA.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 1:28 AM on March 5, 2007 [4 favorites]

Yeah, well, the raping might force resignations here, too. (I would hope, anyway.)
posted by maryh at 1:36 AM on March 5, 2007

Isn't the investigation and prosecution of the crimes of those in political power an indication of a healthy democracy?
posted by PenDevil at 1:48 AM on March 5, 2007

Meh. You could recite the same litany of internal troubles about Italy and no one would posit that Italian democracy is threatened.
posted by three blind mice at 1:57 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

delmoi: I would imagine that around here police enforcement could drop by a hundred fold without impacting my life in an negative way, beyond an increased risk of getting into an accident with a drunk driver. I mean other then drunk driving, drug dealing, and domestic abuse there is almost no crime.

Oh, man, the thieves and con men would have a field day. I don't know if people would suddenly start murdering each other, because most people aren't that evil, but there are tons of people who feel entitled to take anything that isn't nailed down.
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:03 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Oh, man, the thieves and con men would have a field day.

Despite the efforts of Officer demoi to keep the roads safe, the drunken thread drives off the road and into a ditch.
posted by three blind mice at 2:15 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Don't cheer just yet.

In a simpleton's mind, or perhaps of a troll, a post about problems with Israel within the context of Middle East politics is apparently one and the same as a call for Israel to fall apart.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:21 AM on March 5, 2007

Oh, fine, I'll post something on topic.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a somewhat biased-sounding article? Between the frothy-mouthed Sharon-bashing and the bulldozer bit, this does not necessarily sound like a person with an unbiased assessment of the Israeli government. It's not so much the stand they take (I'm not exactly a fan of Sharon myself), it's just the way they present it.

My own impression is the same as aeschenkarnos's. They sound as if their democracy is healthier than ours has been lately.
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:24 AM on March 5, 2007

You could recite the same litany of internal troubles about Italy

except the war crimes and rape, maybe.

Ironically, the ex Italian Prime Minister who was indeed investigated and tried for corruption (certainly not for rape) is not the man now in charge but he is the ex PM, and Bush's best Eurobuddy, and Tony Blair's dearest Continental European ally. so much for Americans pointing that stuff out, I guess.

the problem is that "teh only democracy in teh middle east EV4R" is, unlike any other industrialised nation except, at the time, the USA, occupying land that isn't really theirs (unless one reads Scripture literally, but that opens another can of worms) and facing a violent uprising of the occupied.

and hence, having two different set of laws based on ethnicity, like Israel does in the occupied territories, is to say the least extremely difficult to reconcile with the standards of, say, those surrender lamer European democracies.

so, no, the Israeli situation is very peculiar from the start.


In a simpleton's mind, or perhaps of a troll

or maybe an asshole's. or, even, all of the above.
posted by matteo at 2:47 AM on March 5, 2007

Meh. You could recite the same litany of internal troubles about Italy and no one would posit that Italian democracy is threatened.
posted by three blind mice at 1:57 AM PST on March 5

ditto for India
posted by infini at 2:52 AM on March 5, 2007

ditto for the United States
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:17 AM on March 5, 2007

Ditto, ditto... Maybe any country that faces that litany of internal troubles already has a threatened democracy. Aren't these signs?
posted by maryh at 3:39 AM on March 5, 2007

These things are actually signs that the democracy is alive and well. If there were no investigations of the crimes that absolutely always follow the inevitable corruption of power then I would say that their democracy is in trouble.

The worrying part is when people like delmoi start claiming that democracy is an impediment of progress and that a dictatorship could have cleared up the problems much quicker (particularly when one of the options is the war crime of ethnic cleansing via forceful expulsion of indigenous people). The desire for strong decisive leadership in times of danger is the single largest threat to democracy that exists.

The goal of democracy is not efficiency or perfection. It never has been. The goal of democracy is self-correction and error recovery. When there isn't visible evidence of corruption that isn't because it has been eliminated. It's because it has become invisible and the mechanisms for uncovering it have become compromised.
posted by srboisvert at 4:24 AM on March 5, 2007 [7 favorites]

I have a "four score" theory. After eighty years, give or take a little, entities that are paradigm shifts undergo major readjustments. For example, the United States after eighty years underwent a Civil War. Seventy-some years after the birth of the Soviet Union it fell apart and reorganized.

The reason is that you have the first generation come and go (Lenin, Stalin). You have those that were developed under the wing of the first generation come and go. Then the entity has to reimagine itself or die. Doing a good job of reinventing oneself after the crisis brings longterm stability.

Israel will come up to that crisis point soon. The original leaders are gone and those affected by the original leaders are wearing thin.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:54 AM on March 5, 2007

I have a "four score" theory.

you're not the only one ... one thing about their theory is that, as you said, israel is now due for a crisis and eventually a paradigm shift ... the same can be said for the united states

The original leaders are gone and those affected by the original leaders are wearing thin.

the original leaders ... and those who were old enough to remember the times the original leaders were operating in are also old enough to remember how awful a war ... or a depression ... can be

we've just about run out of people who remember what a true crisis is like ... and who feel a certain cautiousness when dealing with other countries or economics ... therefore, the leadership and the followers are more inclined to take horribly careless and stupid risks, because they never have experienced the consequences
posted by pyramid termite at 5:24 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

I don't have a cite available, but Israel has a significantly higher degree of overall "corruption" than most Western nations, at least according to some studies I read once and can't be bothered to find right now. Of course it does come close to the problems that third world nations have with corruption.
posted by bhouston at 5:33 AM on March 5, 2007

"Of course it does come close to the problems that third world nations have with corruption." --> that should have read "doesn't come close". Too early, no coffee!
posted by bhouston at 5:33 AM on March 5, 2007

I think Democracy itself is in crisis. Largely because of the current administration in Washington. The whole fucking house of cards seems like its in danger of collapsing any day now.
posted by empath at 5:46 AM on March 5, 2007

The 2006 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index ranks countries "from ten (squeaky clean) to zero (highly corrupt)."

Some of the countries that have a significantly worse rating since 2005 include Brazil, Cuba, Israel, Jordan, Laos, Seychelles, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, and the United States.

Finland, the least corrupt nation, received a score of 9.6 (no one is perfect.)

The USA was tied with Belgium and Chile at 7.3 (20th place.)

Israel and Taiwan received a score of 5,9 (34th place.)

Italy, the nation to which I refered earlier, received a score of 4,9 placing them at 45th place.

India and China received a score of 3,3 placing them at 70th place a 9-way tie with, among others, Saudi Arabia and Mexico.

Haiti, the most corrupt nation, received a score of 1,8.
posted by three blind mice at 5:51 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Is Israel falling apart?

one can only hope
posted by altman at 6:17 AM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]

Sounds like Israeli political crooks needs them a rePublican party 'cause everyone knows IOKIYAR.

I suppose the dissonance of occupying someone else's land and justifying it for so long kinda screws up one's values.
posted by nofundy at 6:19 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

No, it isn't. It does have one of the most incompetant governments in its history though, and it is likely that what will happen is the same thing happened in the 1970s after the Yom Kippur War, a large-scale housecleaning of government. The FPP was also way overblown in its assessments of Lieberman and Gaydamak.

For those interested, there is a lot of fascinating debate in the Israeli press over the issue of corruption. The politicians are often blaming the press for being on a witch-hunt, as can be seen in this article (originally in the Jerusalem Post) from Tommy Lapid, who used to head up the Shinnui secular party. That article has been widely mocked in the Israeli press, which has continued to attack corrupt politicians, forcing investigations and resignations. In fact, the current head of Labor is likely to lose to just about any other candidate, including the previously hated Barak.

And what is with all the one liners from people about wanting to see Israel fall apart, by the way? Outside of any other implications, the weakness of the current governments of Israel and the PA is damaging the chance of any sort of peace agreement.
posted by blahblahblah at 6:35 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

The difference with Italy is, as with the U.S. that Italy doesn't face any existential crises. The worst that can happen with Italy is that people are a little worse off economically then they might otherwise be, and people can just keep rolling the election lottery hoping to get someone good as long as possible. They're also in the EU.
posted by delmoi at 6:38 AM on March 5, 2007

You could recite the same litany of internal troubles about Italy and no one would posit that Italian democracy is threatened.

That's because Italy itself is not threatened. (I don't think Austria is likely to invade to reclaim its lost imperial territory any time soon.) Israel, since its beginning, has felt itself in imminent danger from the surrounding countries and has fought several wars in living memory; countries in that kind of situation have a much greater danger of succumbing to the temptations of a Man on a White Horse or other nondemocratic force that promises stability and security. (Compare much of Europe during and after WWI.)

Am I the only one who thinks this is a somewhat biased-sounding article? Between the frothy-mouthed Sharon-bashing and the bulldozer bit, this does not necessarily sound like a person with an unbiased assessment of the Israeli government.

There is no such thing as "an unbiased assessment of the Israeli government." Naturally, anyone who inherently supports Israel is going to think this is "a somewhat biased-sounding article." And by "the frothy-mouthed Sharon-bashing" I presume you mean the accurate recounting of the less savory side of Sharon's career.

Thanks for the post, y2karl—an extremely informative and eye-opening article.
posted by languagehat at 6:41 AM on March 5, 2007

Israeli activist Michel Warschawski makes similar points in his books about the fundamental structural flaws of Israel's political system, making it, at bottom, corrupt and undemocratic.
posted by lathrop at 7:19 AM on March 5, 2007

Is ISrael falling apart?

Not for any kind of sensible reason like completely immoral and reprehensible use of cluster bombs. It's all silly moral panics over nothing like this or even weirder hand waving over the posibility that they lost that round with hizbollah becuase they weren't "tough enough".

It's the larter-era Major goverment but with war crimes. They'll probably get some minor order re-ordering and go back to oppressing people same as always.
posted by Artw at 7:56 AM on March 5, 2007

If Isreal really is falling apart, now would probably be a good time to try and dissolve its current form - a theocratically-governed, occupying military force.
posted by tehloki at 9:08 AM on March 5, 2007

"I prefer for my necessary evil to be private, that way evil is actually accountable. The state should control courts, but police forces can be privatized. That would act as an additional check on the government."

Dumbest comment on Mefi ever?
posted by stenseng at 9:20 AM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]

yeah, it's pretty fuckin' dumb.
posted by quarter waters and a bag of chips at 9:39 AM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

You're out of your mind. Private police forces would only enforce laws benefiting rich people.

Know a lot of rich people that get by cops or appear on the show COPS now?
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 10:19 AM on March 5, 2007

"We will know we have become a normal country when Jewish thieves and Jewish prostitutes conduct their business in Hebrew."

-David Ben-Gurion
Israel's first prime minister
posted by SBMike at 10:33 AM on March 5, 2007

Gaydamak really is an interesting figure/phenomenon. One thing not mentioned in the article is that he set up a huge feast for thousands of Arab citizens of Israel during a Muslim holiday-- while Israeli politicians have been buying Arab votes forever, but never in such a public and seemingly magnanimous way.
posted by cell divide at 10:50 AM on March 5, 2007

I prefer for my necessary evil to be private, that way evil is actually accountable. The state should control courts, but police forces can be privatized. That would act as an additional check on the government.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 12:36 AM PST on March 5

I hear Moqtada Sadr's got a pretty rockin' private police force. WHY, OH WHY, do Libertarians look at Iraq and Afghanistan and think "Awesome!"
posted by geos at 11:41 AM on March 5, 2007

""I prefer for my necessary evil to be private, that way evil is actually accountable. The state should control courts, but police forces can be privatized. That would act as an additional check on the government... Know a lot of rich people that get by cops or appear on the show COPS now?"

Ah, teenage libertarian-oids. (Or, at least, teenage-minded, if not actually teenaged.) This has always been one of the things that always makes me crack up when libertarian-oids say it.

Privatized police is probably the most dangerous idea ever. Law enforcement is part of the community social contract, not a market-competition arena. Do you guys not get the concept that taxes are what you pay to have a civilization in which to live?

Privatized police is a property of a feudal/tribal aristocracy, which is pretty much what most of the extreme libertarian-oid ideas would lead to. Sorry kids, but not everyone on earth grew up white, male and upper-middle-class-to-upper-class in America.
posted by zoogleplex at 12:32 PM on March 5, 2007

The Israel-Italy comparison is inappropiate not just because, for all his faults, not even Berlusconi managed to turn Italian politics into the clusterf*ck Israeli politics are now, and not even because Israel is in a somewhat more precarious geopolitical situation than Italy. What makes the incredible degree of corruption of Israeli politics even more shocking is the contrast with its early leaders.
posted by Skeptic at 2:32 PM on March 5, 2007

"I prefer for my necessary evil to be private, that way evil is actually accountable. The state should control blah blah blah"

As long as I have more money than you, and you have shit that I want to steal, I'm all for privatized police. All the privatized police my money can buy.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 3:24 PM on March 5, 2007

So, privatised police, the mob, what would the difference be again?
posted by Artw at 4:11 PM on March 5, 2007

On the plus side Israel does have a lot of hot chicks with guns.
posted by Artw at 5:05 PM on March 5, 2007

Good Lord, Artw. You are right. and that gun looks like something out of Starship Troopers.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:59 PM on March 5, 2007

In a simpleton's mind, or perhaps of a troll...

What was that you were saying a few threads back about insulting others? Your mind is truly a psychologist's gold mine.
posted by Krrrlson at 4:23 PM on March 6, 2007

What was that you were saying a few threads back about insulting others?

I'll be happy to answer that when you actually act something to a thread other than your vile sputum.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:07 PM on March 6, 2007