Post-Abortion Support, II

March 14, 2007 11:59 PM

Thirty-five percent of U.S. womenwill have at least one abortion before their 45th birthday, making it the most common surgical procedure in the country. If you haven't had one, you know someone who has. If the Post-Abortion E-Cards aren't your thing, there are other ways to raise your voice. Even if you're Catholic or male.
posted by jesirose (75 comments total)

Abortion is about the worst form of birth control out there. I supposed if one were raped, it would make sense. If not, what are you doing having sex without protection if you don't want to procreate? Just doesn't make any sense.
posted by Sukiari at 12:27 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

WTF?
posted by davehat at 12:31 AM on March 15, 2007

Sukari, perhaps you could tell the people who don't want to teach their children about more reasonable birth control methods.

It is also plenty possible to get pregnant while using birth control methods. They're not 100 percent perfect, and they're not often used perfectly correctly. You can use the pill and condoms and still get pregnant.

The attitude you've displayed is one reason many women seek support. They're judged by people like you.
posted by jesirose at 12:41 AM on March 15, 2007

I predict this will continue to go well.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:42 AM on March 15, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]

Those numbers are suspect. I'm betting that it's because they lump in d&c (dilation and curettage) procedures, which are performed commonly in cases where a miscarriage has occurred.
posted by runningdogofcapitalism at 12:44 AM on March 15, 2007

Abortion has a chance of permanently destroying a woman's ability to bear children. I just can't imagine its use in other than last resort situations.

I'm OK with people disagreeing with me. But if you forget how to take a pill or roll a rubber on correctly, and then get pregnant, and then get an abortion and become sterile, I have little empathy for you. Don't mistake lack of empathy for judgement.

You assume too much when you suggest that everybody getting an abortion is doing so because their birth control method(s) failed.

And as far as children not being taught about condoms by their parents, that is a shame. But, my mom didn't teach me about Warhammer 40K. I picked it up on the outside.

I get the same kind of half thought out flak when I don't have empathy for beaten women who didn't get the hell outta the relationship the FIRST time she was abused. She becomes a willing participant. I guess I'm heartless, say what you will. I don't care.
posted by Sukiari at 12:46 AM on March 15, 2007

Are there any links to the actual e-cards, or just the allegation that they exist by Fox News?

(Not that I'm suspect of Fox News or anything.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:48 AM on March 15, 2007

But, my mom didn't teach me about Warhammer 40K.

Uh, neither did mine. What in hell's name are you talking about?

I guess I'm heartless, say what you will. I don't care.

Clearly.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:50 AM on March 15, 2007

Thirty-five percent of U.S. women will have at least one abortion

How sad.
posted by caddis at 12:50 AM on March 15, 2007

I've never had an abortion (I'm pro-choice, but I've never needed nor chosen to have an abortion) but I was accused of having one, by my health insurance company... I had a miscarriage while visiting relatives out-of-state (a traumatic, unexpected experience that turned into a medical emergency that required surgical intervention and a subsequent D&C)... A few weeks later, a representative from my health insurance called to find out why they were being billed for an "abortion" from an out-of-state doctor... Ugh.
posted by amyms at 12:53 AM on March 15, 2007

I can't actually tell what's worse - the fpp or the first comment.
posted by davehat at 12:54 AM on March 15, 2007

Here's a scenario that is pretty common in which all of one's options, including abortion, suck and there's no way you can blame anyone for not having used a rubber or whatever. This is so common that not only have I read memoirs documenting the phenomenon, but it's happened to close family members of mine.

In a relationship, sometimes people want different things. And sometimes, people's minds change. Sometimes, people think that they're ready to have a child until they become pregnant and BAM! They're not really ready for the responsibility. Or there were huge marital problems that were uncovered and it's clear that divorce is the only option. What then? Have a baby that will be fought over for its entire life?

Or sometimes, you find out you're pregnant due to a condom breaking and your partner has just moved to China. This happened to my mother. She couldn't fathom having a baby by herself when she was already raising one kid as a single mom, so she had an abortion. It wasn't an easy decision and it ultimately led her to get sterilized later because she couldn't handle the idea of another pregnancy, despite the fact that pre-abortion she and her partner had wanted to have a child together.

Life is so much more complicated than "If you don't want a baby, don't get knocked up!" So, so much more.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:55 AM on March 15, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]

(Oh hi, I can read/follow links. Which leads me to wonder, if the actual cards were posted earlier, what's the big info here that couldn't have been added as a comment?)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:58 AM on March 15, 2007

Abortion is about the worst form of birth control out there. I supposed if one were raped, it would make sense. If not, what are you doing having sex without protection if you don't want to procreate? Just doesn't make any sense.

This is grade-A perfect example of what the abortion debate is REALLY about; in most cases, it's not at all about saving babies, but rather about punishing sluts.

Anytime you hear 'natural consequences of her actions', in any of its various forms, that's what they mean.
posted by Malor at 12:58 AM on March 15, 2007 [19 favorites has favorites]

Thirty-five percent of U.S. women will have at least one abortion

Yes, but if the 35% statistic is true, this is not about complications, it is about complete laziness in birth control, and about why this important right will eventually be lost. Treat it with respect.
posted by caddis at 12:59 AM on March 15, 2007

I can't actually tell what's worse - the fpp or the first comment.

davehat, I think it's actually the 6th comment that's the worst (with the 1st coming in a close second!).

As much as I want to rise to the bait, though, I am not even going to attempt to intelligently debate issues of partner violence and abortion with someone who compares sex ed to learning a board game.
posted by sanitycheck at 1:00 AM on March 15, 2007

...I don't have empathy for beaten women who didn't get the hell outta the relationship the FIRST time she was abused. She becomes a willing participant.

You know, I just consoled one of my friends out of that situation. Here's what happens:

1) Everyone she tries to go to for support tell her that she's crazy, because he's a nice guy and could never do that.
2) They also tell her she'll never get anything better (this goes right hand in hand with what he'll say to her before/after beating, so it reinforces the effect).
3) The general community also judges women as lesser if they don't have a boyfriend, and lesser if they break up quickly ("loose") and lesser if they have an abusive boyfriend.

So, if you're receiving physical and emotional abuse, and all you hear from everyone else (including family, friends you've trusted for years) that it is your fault and that you are crazy...

How is this different than POW brainwashing?

This would be the 3rd person I've consoled through this, and the situation is the same, regardless of income, education, or ethnic background.
posted by yeloson at 1:02 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Can you really consider a coat hanger "surgery", though?
posted by Mikey-San at 1:07 AM on March 15, 2007

Abortion kills a fetus. Disagree? Then wait until you suffer a miscarriage. Abortion kills. Why is it legal? It remains legal as a policy decision which balances the rights of a womam to control her body versus the rights of the unborn. That this policy decision was made not by the people, but rather by the courts remains very controversial and is likely one of the reasons why the current court has become so conservative. When women abuse this right it tips the balance of the policy decision. Those who use it as a main form of birth control tip the argument toward banning. The public will put up with a few fetus killings if it prevents bad things such as poor living situations for the kids etc. However, if it is used wantonly, then the public won't support it. I hope the 35% number is wrong. If it is right, kiss this right goodbye.
posted by caddis at 1:16 AM on March 15, 2007

...I don't have empathy for beaten women who didn't get the hell outta the relationship the FIRST time she was abused. She becomes a willing participant.

When I was in middle school we had to volunteer at some sort of charitable institution at least once a week. One of the options was a battered women's shelter. Every time we'd go there, we had to put blindfolds on for the entire van ride, and we couldn't take them off until we were inside. We'd get taken inside by someone employed by the shelter. Why did we have to do this? Not because they were afraid the men these women were running from would show up and start beating them then and there. You could call the police for that. They were afraid that these men would show up and convince these women to come back with them.

Most of the best serial abusers could do this. The most horribly abusive relationships are weird, complex, and seriously fucked up. I can't possibly begin to understand exactly what goes on in one, beyond how horrible they can be, and that's just from meeting people who have managed (or at least were trying to) escape. If someone who hasn't been in such a situation deigns to pass an all encompassing judgement on those who have, I am naught but confused.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 1:20 AM on March 15, 2007

I'm pretty sure that the statistic refers to the D&C procedure and not necessarily to a D&C done for the purpose of terminating a pregnancy.

The same source, Guttmacher Institute, reports here that there were 1.2 million abortions in 2002, which while a lot, is only 1% of the total American population and hardly 35% of all American women.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:23 AM on March 15, 2007

Those who use it as a main form of birth control tip the argument toward banning. The public will put up with a few fetus killings if it prevents bad things such as poor living situations for the kids etc.

That is an incredibly useful argument except for the fact that I don't think anyone here could name one person that actually "uses abortion as a main form of birth control." Also, the 35% figure doesn't imply that either. I'm sure we sell more condoms than abortions in these here parts.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 1:26 AM on March 15, 2007

grapefruitmoon, your cite shows abortions as a percentage of live births at about 1/4. That is disgusting.
posted by caddis at 1:28 AM on March 15, 2007

your cite shows abortions as a percentage of live births at about 1/4. That is disgusting.

So how about a statistic comparing the number of abortions performed compared to the number of condoms and birth control pills sold, caddis?

I doubt your "abortion being used as a form of birth control" argument would hold ground then.
posted by Jimbob at 1:43 AM on March 15, 2007

sweet jesus isn't this website supposed to be about cool things that appear on the web? please take abortion, gun control, and immigration threads to debate club. christ.
posted by facetious at 1:51 AM on March 15, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

caddis writes "grapefruitmoon, your cite shows abortions as a percentage of live births at about 1/4. That is disgusting."

And somewhat unlikely, I would have thought.

What with assassins lying in wait outside every abortionist's office, and Operation FundyKook linking arms outside every family planning facility, you've really got to wonder where on earth all these terminations are happening?

Back to the back streets and Mikey-San's coathanger, perhaps?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:55 AM on March 15, 2007

When women abuse this right

I like how women can be accused of abusing a right.

It's your right honey. Now let me tell you how you should use it.
posted by srboisvert at 1:59 AM on March 15, 2007 [24 favorites has favorites]

Oh please, please, please delete this thread.

favourite this comment if you agree with me!
posted by liquorice at 2:05 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Or, even better, just flag the thread.
posted by liquorice at 2:09 AM on March 15, 2007

favourite this comment if you agree with me!

I flagged your comment as offensive.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:28 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

This is grade-A perfect example of what the abortion debate is REALLY about; in most cases, it's not at all about saving babies, but rather about punishing sluts.

I don't even get this. Don't we love sluts?

I was under the impression that America, as a nation, loved sluts.
posted by Simon! at 2:34 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

wendell?
posted by matteo at 2:36 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I can only hope the anti-choice burden is lightening.

In Solidarity,
Summer
posted by summerbt at 2:39 AM on March 15, 2007

Sidestepping the whole argument, I have to question the "most common surgery" statement. Surely there are more common, more minor procedures? Something dental, perhaps? Does getting stitches count as surgery?
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:42 AM on March 15, 2007

I come from a very poor, kinda low class 'more trailer parks then stoplights' hometown. I can assure you abortion is being used as a form of birth control by some of the women there, as I happen to know more then one instance where a hookup was participated in without birth control, only to have to result in pregnancy which is then terminated.

I honestly don't know if they even considered the potential consequence of pregnancy when choosing to engage in sexual activity, but it sure seems like they simply ignore it, I guess assuming it probably wont happen to them.

I know from personal experience that at the local pizza place I'd say about 50% of the female employees left the job due to unintended pregnancy. These girls were almost exclusively high school aged, so clearly these many girls aren't getting the information regarding (or access to) birth control that they need. Either that, or they are just profoundly short sighted.

But for every five or so girls I'm aware of that got pregnant due to inability or unwillingness to use birth control that carry the child to term, I'd guess one chooses to terminate.

None of this changes my position that a woman's right to choose is absolutely essential, but I think it's silly to pretend it's all broken condoms and rape victims either.
posted by Jezztek at 2:47 AM on March 15, 2007

Grapefruitmoon: "Uh, neither did mine. What in hell's name are you talking about?"

It is possible to learn things your parents didn't teach you. Just because mom and dad didn't tell you what a condom is or what it's for doesn't mean you shouldn't learn.

Malor: "Anytime you hear 'natural consequences of her actions', in any of its various forms, that's what they mean."

I think it'd be great if there was a 100% safe abortion method. I don't think anybody should be punished for getting an abortion. But I guess the abortion debate isn't about practical philosophy so much, but more an inquisition to determine if one is following the prescribed chains of thought.

Sanitychech, davehat, yeloson, you guys ever heard of free will? I guess some of us have it and some don't. Or maybe some have the will to use their free will and some don't. Spousal abuse is tragic, but it's hard to help somebody who does not value themselves and exercises their free will, even at odds with their family or friends.

Doublewhiskeycokeandice: "If someone who hasn't been in such a situation deigns to pass an all encompassing judgement on those who have, I am naught but confused."

Don't mistake judgement with lack of empathy. I don't judge these women, or people who lose their fertility by having abortions. But when you forget your free will exists and just kind of ride, bad stuff is bound to happen.

And yeah, sluts are fine. Just like prudes are fine.
posted by Sukiari at 2:48 AM on March 15, 2007

I'd also like to point out that everybody accusing me of judgement is doing just that. Seems a little ironic. Tolerance does not imply acceptance.
posted by Sukiari at 2:50 AM on March 15, 2007

[T]here were 1.2 million abortions in 2002, which while a lot, is only 1% of the total American population and hardly 35% of all American women.

Yes, but that's only one year. The 35% statistic isn't referring to every single year, but rather from the age they become sexually active till they turn 45.

Having said that, saying that abortion is being used as a main form of birth control is absolutely ridiculous. Even if the 35% statistic is correct, that is referring to a *single* abortion over a sexual lifetime (say, 30 years? Give or take?). Unless those women are having a baby for every other time they've had sex, I'd say there's probably some other form of birth control being used here.
posted by antifuse at 3:10 AM on March 15, 2007

Spousal abuse is tragic, but it's hard to help somebody who does not value themselves and exercises their free will, even at odds with their family or friends.

These people are often broken. Seriously broken. They have no concept that they deserve any better. It actually doesn't occur to them (and not because they're stupid, but because their brains are wired this way) that they should, or indeed even *could* get out of an abusive relationship. Are you saying that we shouldn't help people who don't have the *ability* to help themselves? If so, fair enough... I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of your position.
posted by antifuse at 3:18 AM on March 15, 2007

Antifuse, I think we should help the unfortunate. But do you think they completely lack free will, or that they simply choose not to exercise it? If they lack the will to protect themselves, should they be allowed to drive a car? Do they have the ability to protect a pedestrian if they can't protect themselves? I'm just trying to figure out what we should do with the seriously broken people, and if they are dangerous to everybody else until they are cured (if that's even possible). Again, free will. Or maybe they willed themselves into a situation? We seem to be accepting of masochists - perhaps a percentage of abused women are just masochistic, and we should accept that too? I'm not sure, but this conversation seems to be heading in a direction that I find to be very interesting.

I've been up for a very long time and it's bedtime. In the morning I will enjoy myself, whether or not there are 500 mefites who want to hoist me by my petards. It would be a shame to delete this thread before I get the public thrashing I so evidently deserve for asking if abortion and spousal abuse have anything to do with free will and foresight.
posted by Sukiari at 3:27 AM on March 15, 2007

I'm pretty sure Sukiari's studiously unempathetic attitude is academic, as he's never had an opportunity to need birth control. I don't really care that he can't get laid, though.
posted by DenOfSizer at 3:33 AM on March 15, 2007

Not off to bed so quick that I can't shoot back at DenOfSizer.

1. Got laid around noon. Happily married to a gorgeous and intelligent woman with free will.

2. Partly academic, partly based upon ignorance of why a person would not think of the future.

3. Seems like, as you have nothing intelligent or relevant to say, you try for a cheap shot. Is that just a momentary lapse, or it is more indicative of your overall personality? Seems pretty petty either way.

Maybe I am a digital masochist. DenOfSizer, you actually made me LOL all by myself here in the office at 3:36 AM. Thanks.
posted by Sukiari at 3:36 AM on March 15, 2007

Sanitychech, davehat, yeloson, you guys ever heard of free will?

Sure...

Sukiari, please feel free to fuck off.

See?
posted by davehat at 3:39 AM on March 15, 2007

As a general rule if all you can do is say things like "fuck off" or "can't get laid" to somebody you disagree with you're probably better of keeping your damn mouth shut. That's an awful lot to ask for on Metafilter, though. Huzzah for liberal open-mindedness.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:59 AM on March 15, 2007

Sukiari, you are either very young or very very lucky to have never been a bad relationship or to have never made a mistake. One day you will and with luck you will come out if wiser and with more empathy.

There is the idealized world of free will and then there is the real world of constraints both real and psychological that lead to some people making bad decisions some of the time. Empathy comes from understanding that. It usually develops with experience. You just need time.
posted by srboisvert at 4:06 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Well, in the second place Sukiari is quoting typical abortion myths. While there is a slight chance of sterility resulting from abortion, it is quite rare when the abortion is performed by a real doctor instead of with a coat hanger or the like by an untrained butcher.

But, yeah, he's also, however he dances around it, playing the slut punishment game. She should have considered it before she started fucking, the slut, she deserves it.

Of course women have free will, but there's also circumstances where all the free will, all the education, all the foresight, in the world won't keep an unplanned pregnancy from happening. It sucks, and the fact that research into birth control has effectively stopped is, from my POV, a huge mistake. But its true. It may be true that the many, heck for the sake of argument let's say most, of the women who get abortions have failed to plan ahead. This means their lives should be seriously mangled because they had one momentary lapse in judgement?

The other side is that free will is affected by society. Teen pregnancy rates in areas with less sex education are measurably higher than areas with more sex education. Abstenence "education" tends to result in higher teen pregnancy rates because it lies to children and tells them that contraception doesn't work, so the victims of abstenence "education" are vastly less likely to use contraception than people not exposed to any sex education. Yup, they too have free will, but its not just free will that determines what happens, so what, you think they should be punished becuase they didn't have the whatittakes to go against their education? Can you start to see why people are calling you an asshole?

As for Caddis I will say this: When they start passing laws mandating blood donation, mandating organ donation, and mandating other ways in which a man's body is used as life support for a third party then he can talk about his precious fetal lives. You'll notice that for these assholes its only women who are obligated to donate their bodies to third parties, never men. Until then he can fuck off like all the other pathetic slut punishers.

I'll also bet that our, incredibly concerned about those precious fetal lives, assholes suddenly stop caring about those lives once they're born. Tell me caddis, you willing to see your taxes raised to provide post-natal care, to pay for all the food, diapers, etc that kids need? No? Instead you'll start ranting about welfare queens and stuff like that, am I right? Funny how people like you never seem to care about babies *after* they're born.
posted by sotonohito at 4:11 AM on March 15, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

But do you think they completely lack free will, or that they simply choose not to exercise it? If they lack the will to protect themselves, should they be allowed to drive a car? Do they have the ability to protect a pedestrian if they can't protect themselves?

I don't really feel like getting into a discussion of whether one's free will with respect to interpersonal relationships has any effect on their free will to not drive a car onto the sidewalk. I don't think it's all that pertinent to the discussion at hand, really.

Suffice to say, I can feel bad for somebody who is in a situation that they feel they are unable to get out of, free will or no. I'm certainly not going to condemn them for being weak-willed. And perhaps you're not, either, but your criticisms of said folk come off as a condemnation, whether intended or not.
posted by antifuse at 4:11 AM on March 15, 2007

Dudes, chill. It was a joke in an otherwise shrill thread, but one which sought to get the heart of Sukiari's own self-admitted heartlessness. Oh, I have plenty to say on the matter (e.g., the moral equivalence of abortion with spousal abuse is immediately suspect; the fact that a large percentage of abortions are sought by teenagers, to whom society does not automatically grant the rights of free will [but would you have the state prohibit and enforce teenage sex laws?]; something about the fact that many insurance companies will not cover contraception but they will pay for abortions; the fact that free will engenders mistakes, which some people will deal with by having abortions, so you can't really use the free-will arugement to settle the morality of abortion; etc. etc.) but at the end of the day I wasn't going to put so much mental effort into a tendentious thread that's going to get the boot anyhoo.

But I just wanted to point out the hypocricy of a the "liberal open-minded poster" telling me to keep my damn mouth shut.

lol.
posted by DenOfSizer at 4:12 AM on March 15, 2007

"But, yeah, he's also, however he dances around it, playing the slut punishment game. She should have considered it before she started fucking, the slut, she deserves it."

If you ride a motorcycle you know you may get into an accident. The best helmet in the world won't protect your abdomen from rebar. As I said above, it would be great if there were 100% risk free abortion methods, but as it stands both sexual intercourse and abortion are somewhat like riding a motorcycle.

As couched in cotton candy as your words are, the message is still "He's a WITCH! BURN HIM!!!!!"
posted by Sukiari at 4:16 AM on March 15, 2007

Looks like Mr. Non-Sequatorial Analogy's got himself a little mefi addiction. It's almost as if he doesn't have the will to go home, even though he said himself he's been up all night. It's not good for him but he just. can't. help. himself.

And yeah, Sukiari, this is "indicative of my personality", and no, it's not really a cheap shot, it just looks like one.
posted by DenOfSizer at 4:28 AM on March 15, 2007

I flagged your comment as offensive.

*cries*
posted by liquorice at 4:33 AM on March 15, 2007

I admit it. I'm a favourite-addict. I just needed one last hit, hontest.
posted by liquorice at 4:36 AM on March 15, 2007

Sukiari I suppose it could be seen that way. But look at it this way, the anti-abortion crowd makes the same arguments you do, there are millions of people out there who do seek to punish sluts, etc and you are surprised that people are jumping you for echoing (however couches in cotton candy) those sentiments?

Women have been getting the short end of the stick for a bit over 10,000 years now. There are wealthy and powerful men who are wealthy and powerful because they advocate continuing to give women the short end of the stick. There are entire *religions* based around giving women the short end of the stick [1]. There is a huge, powerful, movement in the US that is not only opposed to abortion rights but also opposed to sex education and contraception, which centers around slut punishing, etc.

Can you see how people might jump a bit when you start sounding like that? Maybe you really aren't one of the slut punishers, just someone with a big free will thing. But given the history of the slut punishment movement, the relatively new status of women as fully empowered citizens [2], etc, debating such fine points, taking a position that seems to be quite similar to the slut punishment viewpoint, etc is going to make many people jump.

[1] Remember, Orthodox Jews begin their morning prayers with "Thank you God for not making me a woman", it ain't just Islam that hates women, its pretty much every religion that exists.

[2] Historic note: My great aunt, back around 1940, intended to start a business here in Texas. She discovered that in order to do so she had to get a (male) judge to issue a decree that she, as a woman, was competent to do so. Men, you understand, did not have this requirement.
posted by sotonohito at 4:40 AM on March 15, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

I know precisely two women who have been in abusive relationships, and both were as far from this simplistic notion of "oh why doesn't she just leave?" as you can get. Seriously, umm, things can be complicated, Sukiari.

BUT. To deny that some people make bad decisions when they should've known better is to deny reality. Arguing that all women who have abortions are victims of society and circumstance is playing right into the hands of the slut punishers, who seize upon this as evidence that all the other, more valid, claims of the civil liberties movement are false too. There are irresponsible men and women out there, and they are as much an enemy of a woman's right to control her body as the religious wackos.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 4:50 AM on March 15, 2007

This post and several of the comments leave me incredible sad.

I wish I had the words to express how incredible self-absorbed your comments are Sukiari. You freely state your opinions, which lump entire groups of people, women seeking abortions and those in abusive relationships, into convenient categories. Essentially in each case they are mindless and lack control of their free will.


These are incredible explosive arguments - I don't have the answer for abortion, except I believe all the arguments boil down to choice versus life. I fall on the choice side and the best route is up to that person to make.

For the discussion that joined the abusive relationship argument with that of abortion - what? but to suggest women in abusive relationships are lacking free will is incredible naive. Read the literature, studies, etc. Please. If not, then my suggestion to you is to work a women's center crisis hotline or shelter. For the first three months just wash the floors or something but listen. Crisis hotlines are depressing as all hell - the world is made up of all types and incredible simple decisions to us are actually asked; lifes completely turned upside down by physical and mental violence is dealt with. The one thing that stays with me, is the act of rape for a woman is the removal of choice so when working with them I was advised to offer choice as much as possible. I am simplifying the experience and rambling, but has helped in my understanding of that particular experience for women.

To say any of what you stated relates to free will is about as useful as my asking what are you even in the blue when you could be out curing cancer - what's wrong with you. Stop abusing free will and go cure cancer - it is about as random.

For me, the discussion around abortion is choice. It always will be. I also believe in education, which fundamentally the same group that wants to stop choice also actively pursues halting or banning sex education. This makes a lot of sense and would love to have the juxtaposition explained to me.

The way you have laid out your argument sounds like you are not against it for value reasons; sounds like you already believe women have choice but are too unaware to use it. Is that right?
posted by fluffycreature at 4:55 AM on March 15, 2007

what are you doing having sex without protection if you don't want to procreate?

Go get fucked.
posted by autodidact at 5:49 AM on March 15, 2007

No, don't get fucked, until you get protection.
posted by caddis at 5:51 AM on March 15, 2007

As for the guy? Well, he's just a dude who got laid. Punish the woman for being a 'slut', but remember to give the guy a pat on the back for hitting that.

Remember kids: birth control is entirely up to women to enforce, remember, and use.
posted by sephira at 5:54 AM on March 15, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Tolerance does not imply acceptance.
Couldn't agree more but whose tolerance is at question here, yours or the people who don't agree with you?

Abortion has a chance of permanently destroying a woman's ability to bear children.
So does pregnancy.

In the morning I will enjoy myself, whether or not there are 500 mefites who want to hoist me by my petards. It would be a shame to delete this thread before I get the public thrashing I so evidently deserve for asking if abortion and spousal abuse have anything to do with free will and foresight.
Wow, how's that self-martyring thing working for you? It looked to me like you jumped right on this topic intending to get the very response you got.

I am pro-choice (versus pro-abortion) for various reasons but this thread reminds me how much I hate the thought of having a baby being viewed as a punishment for having sex.

Oh, and someone needs to learn how to spell "judgment"
posted by fuse theorem at 5:54 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

There’s a rumour going around, perpetuated by bumper stickers and politicians, that “God is pro-life.” It’s an interesting claim, and since everyone seems to want God (i.e. the heavy guns) on their side, I thought I’d examine it.

Michael Sandel, (yes, that Sandel) while working on the presidential Council on Bioethics, wrung this statement from expert witness John M. Opitz, MD:

Sandel: “…[W]hat percent of fertilized eggs fail to implant or are otherwise lost?”
Opitz: “Estimates range all the way from 60 percent to 80 percent of the very earliest stages, cleavage stages, for example, that are lost.“

Hmmm…. so, in 2003, there were about 4 million babies born in the United States. Given the most conservative estimate of 60% lost before parturition, that means that 6 million embryos were destroyed by natural causes. This is convenient, as it is the most popular estimate for Jewish deaths during the Shoah (Holocaust). Since I’ve previously railed against the equation of abortion with genocide, this seems apropos.

If I can find some global population statistics that chart total human population throughout history, I’m thinking of putting up a running total: Abortions: God v. Man. This would be especially interesting given plague and disaster death rates, plus historical v. current infant mortality rates. Sadly, I’m not a statistician, I’m a philosopher, so I’ll continue to depend on the experts. The CDC recorded 857,000 abortions in 2000, so, to keep the numbers round, let’s say 1 million.

For 2003:
Humans: 1 million
God: 6 million

I would argue that any God worthy of invocation (i.e., an intelligent designer, deist or participatory) would not design a system with such a lousy success rate if this deity were concerned primarily with the survival of all embryos. Thus, God is objectively not pro-life. If you believe in predestination or election, then all conceivable omnipotent and omniscient creator-Gods must be understood as pro-choice (not ours, though) and pro-death.
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:58 AM on March 15, 2007 [15 favorites has favorites]

Do you have any bad habits, Sukiari? Bite your nails, maybe? Pick your nose? Anything you have the free will to stop doing but you just can't... seem... to... quit?
posted by schoolgirl report at 6:13 AM on March 15, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

If you ride a motorcycle you know you may get into an accident. The best helmet in the world won't protect your abdomen from rebar.

And if there was a life-saving and life-restoring procedure that would restore you to perfect health, would you deny it to these people because they were dirty motorcycle riding hippies?

It's not cool to be a callous asshole, despite what the internet has taught you.
posted by TypographicalError at 6:16 AM on March 15, 2007

"Do you have any bad habits, Sukiari"

I think a line in somewhat charmless responses "Got laid around noon" - might be one of Sukiari's poor habits.

But we'd have to ask his "gorgeous and intelligent" wife.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 6:19 AM on March 15, 2007

If you ride a motorcycle you know you may get into an accident.

Life is not a stupid analogy. You're lack of understanding about spousal abuse / power dynamics / birth control anything is appalling. Though I bet you kick ass at Warhamer.
posted by dobbs at 6:26 AM on March 15, 2007

That should be Your of course.
posted by dobbs at 6:27 AM on March 15, 2007

what anotherpanacea said.
posted by nofundy at 6:29 AM on March 15, 2007

Thirty-five percent of U.S. women will have at least one abortion

Historically speaking, this statistic is not unprecedented. Approximately one-third of American women had abortions in the 19th century and in the 20th century before Roe, based on my recollection of research such as James Mohr's Abortion in America and Leslie Reagan's When Abortion Was a Crime. Here's an 1878 editorial cartoon that depicts what Fifth Avenue in New York would look like, because the 19th-century abortionist Madame Restell had been arrested and committed suicide. Note how Fifth Avenue is overrun with pregnant women pushing baby carriages. The 35% statistic is not the result of some increase in irresponsibility but a relatively constant statistic across time, regardless of how restrictive the law about abortion is at any given time.
posted by jonp72 at 6:43 AM on March 15, 2007

I'm starting to think that Sukiari's just an attention whore, and unfortunately quite successful at it -- he managed to derail the thread from the very first comment.

But returning to the actual subject at hand, does anyone really think that an ecard is a very good idea?
posted by clevershark at 6:44 AM on March 15, 2007

Plenty of the women I know have had abortions.

One was taking the pill responsibly in a monogamous relationship, but another medication she was taking interfered with it and she got pregnant. I think it made her completely re-evaluate her identity. She considers it the worst thing that has ever happened to her.

One was knocked up by her physically abusive boyfriend. She wanted to have the baby, because she is Catholic and was completely opposed to abortion. He convinced her to have the abortion instead. He took her to someone in Los Angeles who barely spoke English, where she was given an extra strength Tylenol and a Valium right before the procedure began, neither of which began working until she was already home. She is fortunately rid of the boyfriend now and is incredibly grateful that she didn't have the baby. The abortion may have saved her life-- she may never have gotten rid the father out of her life otherwise, and the way things escalated he could have easily killed her.

One was a newlywed. She and her husband were on incredibly shaky ground and she was terrified that their marriage could not withstand the strain. When she told her husband about the pregnancy, he acted more like he had knocked her up on prom night, not like they'd been together four years. Within two years, she became pregnant again and this time they decided they were ready, and now they have a one-year old.

One got pregnant by her long-term boyfriened whom her family did not accept. She was 19, and she caved into her family's pressure and had an abortion. Of course once she had the procedure, she was persona non grata at family events and was basically exiled. Within a year she had a baby with this man, and they were together for five more years. Her family has still refused to acknowledge her or her child.

Two others have have gotten pregnant out of pure recklessness, in both cases the man has vanished leaving the expense and trauma of the abortion to be dealt with by the girl and her friends.
posted by hermitosis at 7:07 AM on March 15, 2007

Thirty-five percent of U.S. women will have at least one abortion before their 45th birthday

Hmmm, I'm almost 43; guess I better hurry if I wanna join the party.
posted by JanetLand at 7:10 AM on March 15, 2007

i don't have any empathy for people who play Warhammer 40K.
posted by geos at 7:14 AM on March 15, 2007

making it the most common surgical procedure in the country.

And yet, for some unique reason, this is why conservatives believe it should be banned. The lack of logic in that is amazing.

Yet, while I disagreed vehemently with it, I used to understand a little better the anti-choice side about this being different because of how you can believe it's a life equivalent to a born human being, but reading Sukiari's comments, not to mention the way right-wingers have reacted to the recent developments about mandating HPV vaccines for girls, this really is all about punishing women. It really is. That's what all the restrictive laws and fear and shame-inducing policies are about... it's just far too easy for women to have the procedure done. Those whores must pay.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 7:42 AM on March 15, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

XQUZYPHYR I know what you mean. At one point I too fell for the lie they tell about how they're really "pro-life".

For me it was their insistence on abstenence only education that convinced me they were really just about slut punishing, but the opposition to the HPV vaccine really does drive it home.

I'm pro-choice, it doesn't mean I like abortion. They're anti-woman, abortion is just one of their many anti-woman stances.
posted by sotonohito at 7:46 AM on March 15, 2007

This is grade-A perfect example of what the abortion debate is REALLY about; in most cases, it's not at all about saving babies, but rather about punishing sluts.

Bingo. Why do you think they also oppose teaching birth control methods?

grapefruitmoon, your cite shows abortions as a percentage of live births at about 1/4. That is disgusting.

It doesn't disgust me, and I don't think it actually bothers that many people outside the republican base.
posted by delmoi at 7:49 AM on March 15, 2007

Do you have any bad habits, Sukiari? Bite your nails, maybe? Pick your nose? Anything you have the free will to stop doing but you just can't... seem... to... quit?

He stated one of them: workaholic. It is just socially acceptable so he thinks it's normal human behavior (even though it's not): "...all by myself here in the office at 3:36 AM. Thanks."

And I guess his posting itself might constitute something he just... cant... stop...

You gotta love the contradictory nature of these claims of the anti-choice folks: (1) women use abortion as a casual, recurrent form of birth control. (2) Abortion has a high percentage chance or rendering the woman sterile.

There is just so much absurdity going on with their claims that I don't know where to begin.

Oh, yeah, and I regret posting to this thread already.

We need "MetaRegret" where we can flag our own post that went to threads with never ending argumentation in which nothing is actually achieved except to give some cocksure 20 somethings a playground to talk about just exactly how right they really are about whatever topic is being discussed.
posted by smallerdemon at 7:53 AM on March 15, 2007