Comments on: Book of Mormon authorship

Book of Mormon authorship

Brian B. — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 11:39:05 -0800

Who really wrote the Book of Mormon? It's always been an open question if you weren't a true believer. After enduring the casual dismissals of Joseph Smith admirers and biographers in the 20th century, the Spalding-Rigdon theory reemerges as the abductive explanation, as Spalding's "manuscript" parallels obscure or disputed sources and turns the tables against apologists.

By: thirteenkiller

thirteenkiller — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:10:53 -0800

I thought we'd established it was the magic hat guy?

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:16:43 -0800

I thought we'd established it was the magic hat guy? You seem to be referring to the fact that Smith claimed to translate the "golden plates" by peering in a hat at a seer stone in the bottom and dictating the Book of Mormon to a scribe, the "plates" admittedly not in the room. That is undisputed by anyone. What is unknown is where the book's narrative and doctrine originally came from.

By: DU

DU — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:21:45 -0800

Elron Hubbard

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:37:24 -0800

thirteenkiller writes "I thought we'd established it was the magic hat guy?" It was a Metafilter poster who wrote the Book of Mormon? Way to go, Mefites!

By: GavinR

GavinR — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:42:17 -0800

Everyone knows it was really the Crab People.

By: blue_beetle

blue_beetle — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:45:14 -0800

Yeah, this will end well...

By: quin

quin — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:46:18 -0800

Anecdotal: I have a co-worker that loves to mock Mormons. He points to the sketchy background of Smith and the questionable events that make up the history of the religion. He wonders how anyone could believe in such an obvious fraud. The amusing part is that he is also a devout hard-core Christian, who firmly believes that the earth is 8000 years old. I was going to comment on this, then I remembered my rule about not discussing faith in the workplace.

By: porpoise

porpoise — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 13:12:35 -0800

Glen A. Larson

By: growabrain

growabrain — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 13:19:34 -0800

Bob, the SubGenuis dude, or any of his other imaginary friends

By: frogan

frogan — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 13:35:36 -0800

What is unknown is where the book's narrative and doctrine originally came from. Again, we thought it was the magic hat guy...?

By: billysumday

billysumday — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 13:42:15 -0800

Here's Mark Twain's take, from Roughing It: "All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the 'elect' have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so 'slow,' so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle -- keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason. "The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel -- half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern -- which was about every sentence or two -- he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as 'exceeding sore,' 'and it came to pass,' etc., and made things satisfactory again. 'And it came to pass' was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet."

By: Dizzy

Dizzy — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 13:42:59 -0800

I thought Spalding-Riggs theory referred to old guys losing at tennis.

By: loquacious

loquacious — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 13:45:36 -0800

Sorry, sorry. I wrote that. It was just supposed to be a simple lttle prank with a time machine and some fake artifacts. If Mr. Smith wasn't such a gullible fool, he would have realized that it simply said "I am a fish" in hundreds of different dialects and then encoded in a form of binary unicode represented as written semaphore. Anyway, Hiram was supposed to find the "book" and stones. It would have been much funnier, I promise. Among other things all the Mormons would have been wearing shoes for hats and walking silly walks backwards everywhere and "faith handling salamanders". Which involved special salamander underpants.

By: matteo

matteo — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:57:02 -0800

ask languagehat to translate the "Reformed Egyptian" tablet and get it over with

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:59:43 -0800

Which involved special salamander underpants. Are these underpants made from the skins of salamanders, or cloth underpants with salamanders sewn in?

By: Lentrohamsanin

Lentrohamsanin — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:05:02 -0800

I thought they were underpants for salamanders.

By: bardic

bardic — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:22:02 -0800

The only problem with Mormonism has always been marketing. Now, they're getting up to speed on that. Religions always start as cults.

By: dirigibleman

dirigibleman — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:34:18 -0800

If salamanders don't wear pants, wouldn't their underpants be pants?

By: Dizzy

Dizzy — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:39:28 -0800

Elvis wore a big diaper while eating fried banana sandwiches. True story. I'm bored.

By: Fuzzy Monster

Fuzzy Monster — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:40:09 -0800

Metafilter: underpants for salamanders.

By: Effigy2000

Effigy2000 — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:14:29 -0800

I liked South Park's take on the foundations of the Mormon religion from a few years back in an episode called 'All About The Mormons'. Seems that Youtube and Google video have taken down the clips (pesky copyright!) so I can't link you to that, but I did find this page which has plenty of images from the episode and discusses South Park's take on it vs. a Mormons take. Dosen't really mention the funniest part though, which was the musical score that accompanied the story with a very subtle "dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb" beat added in.

By: Fuzzy Monster

Fuzzy Monster — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:42:21 -0800

I was checking out the links in the original post and I found some Found Poetry on this page. humanity recoils at beholding must drop a tear dropped a tear inhabited by savages & wild ferocious beasts surrounded by innumerable hordes hordes of savages copper-colored tribe imagination can paint imagination alone can paint I will either triumph with you in the success of the enterprise or perish in the attempt without distinction of age or sex the Blood of the Transgressor watry tomb tread lightly on the ashes of the venerable dead scattered over an extensive Country thirst for revenge thirst for glory warlike implements military manoevers a true maxim that to avoid war It was avarice, cursed avarice which induced me to engage in this horrid war blood of our citizens to deluge our land with the blood of our citizens effusion of human blood redoubled their efforts in spreading death and carnage thirsted for each other's blood satiated its thirst by copious draughts of human blood devastate the world and produce rivers of human blood stained with blood determined either to die gloriously fighting or to obtain victory determined to conquer or die die, gloriously fighting in the cause of their country and their God death & destruction blood & slaughter amazement & terror with great velocity full in the faces of the Kentucks blowing them into the flames of war vigor of youth & manhood in some future age Many bloody skirmishes ensued with various success, & many feats of heroism were displayed on both sides equal feats of valor were displayed by contending heroes brave warriors fell on both sides warriors who had fallen by the sword was destroyed by the sword of Sambal the blessings of peace take an affectionate farewell final adieu bade an affectionate adieu feelings of the human heart fraught with sentiments statigem race of beings pierce my soul on my bended knees implore And here we will leave them for the present But not willing to stop here customs, manners, religion & arts & sciences The command of these bands were given to Elseon the ground was strewed thick with the slain The field was widely strewed & in many places thickly covered with human bodies carnage shall glut our indignant swords wisdom & penetration of mind with all possible expedition vigorous exertions forcing his march into the city through this narrow passage effeminate & luxurious court luxurious sanguine in their expectations his success answered his most sanguine expectations how often are the most sanguine expectations disappointed having thus succeeded beyond our expectation manly monster perfidious highborn huzzas with one voice diffuse a more accurate knowledge Prostrate he tumbled at the feet of Hamkoo dearest friends & relations enriched himself by a prodigious mass of plunder threw down their arms and surrendered agree to lay down their arms protected in their persons & properties page of history time immemorial surrendered themselves prisoners of war the cause of their country whole empire innocent blood

By: graventy

graventy — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:53:03 -0800

Subtle it was not, but that was a good episode of South Park. Also highly recommended, Under the Banner of Heaven, by Jon Krakauer. Excellent book.

By: ZachsMind

ZachsMind — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:00:53 -0800

What GrowaBrain said.

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:38:46 -0800

Good instincts, Fuzzy M.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:46:11 -0800

It was a Metafilter poster who wrote the Book of Mormon? of course, the inimitable mr. crash davis wrote that one.

By: jayder

jayder — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:11:48 -0800

I wish rinkjustice was still around to weigh in.

By: Lentrohamsanin

Lentrohamsanin — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:07:26 -0800

He might be. Or did they take away his dropkick account too?

By: The Card Cheat

The Card Cheat — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:10:25 -0800

It depresses me to no end that people could actually fall for this shit. But, then again, I feel that way about pretty much every religion. Except, of course, Scientology, The Most Plausible Faith.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:35:22 -0800

"Well ElRon-eff-Hubbard-on-a-pogo-stick, I just don't believe it!" she ejaculated.

By: eye of newt

eye of newt — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:57:31 -0800

Isn't one of the claims in the Book of Mormon that the American Indians are descended from an Israeli tribe? Seems that the DNA evidence seems to go against this. Which is interesting because Mormons are considered to be among the world's best DNA and genetic experts (something to do with converting people after they are already dead--heck, why should dead people be denied the chance to become Mormon?-) This has lead some of these Mormon DNA experts to question their faith, and as a result, the source of the Book of Mormon

By: prodigalsun

prodigalsun — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:05:29 -0800

Cue Jek Porkins...

By: Goofyy

Goofyy — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 04:29:56 -0800

Native Americans are not said to be descended from Israelites. The Native Americans were already here when the Isrealeites in question arrived. Neither is it claimed that any of those Hebrew folks remained when Columbus showed up. Convenient, no? I quite like Mark Twain's observations. The whole 'It came to pass' thing is absolutely true. I've attempted to actually read the Book of Mormon, and found it painful.

By: From Bklyn

From Bklyn — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 04:59:40 -0800

Under the Banner of Heaven By John Krakauer Is an insane and brilliant (and overlong) book about mormonism. It talks about all of it and if you really do want to know about Mormonism it's a great start and a at times deeply creepy and flagrantly hilarious read. That John Smith was _quite_ the cut-up, with a serious taste for the ladies. The young ladies.

By: brain cloud

brain cloud — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 08:48:46 -0800

You shouldn'ta posted this on a Sunday, Brian B. All the good mormon mefites who we want to hear from about this thread are gonna be in church all day, being reverent. We might have to wait until tomorrow to read their testimonkies about the BOM being true.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 10:20:29 -0800

While the Mormons I've met are some of the nicest people I know, they are batshitinsane if they take their book at all seriously.

By: Uther Bentrazor

Uther Bentrazor — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 10:30:49 -0800

Mormonism is like, the Hyundai of Christian religions.

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:11:21 -0800

Native Americans are not said to be descended from Israelites. The Native Americans were already here when the Isrealeites in question arrived. Untrue, if you are referring to what most Mormons believe.

By: bardic

bardic — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 17:47:17 -0800

Brigham Young and plenty of 'em.

By: cenoxo

cenoxo — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 21:09:08 -0800

Who really wrote the Book of Mormon? What is unknown is where the book's narrative and doctrine originally came from. No great mystery, really. By 1830, many popular books and periodicals — available to Joseph Smith — had posed ideas presented in the BOM, including the romantic notion that American Indians were the descendants of the ten "lost" tribes of Israel. See the bibliography in Where Did Joseph Smith Get His Ideas for the Book of Mormon?:

Many of the books published on the American Indians claimed a possible tie to the lost tribes of Israel. The Book of Mormon follows this idea and claims that the main group in the story is Israelites from Jerusalem. Other ideas found in the Book of Mormon that are also found in books of Smith's time include: two groups warring against each other, a white group destroyed by war, horses, use of the wheel, mammoth bones, Hebrew writings, Egyptian influence, the use of stone boxes, written records, temples, grand ruins, highways, fortifications, etc. These commonly held theories prepared the way for people to more readily believe the Book of Mormon.

More examples are in the online book Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon.

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 21:32:45 -0800

cenoxo, those authors have made the assumption that Smith wrote it prior to their argument, when there are other candidates who had a far greater personal interest in the same narrative (Spalding) and the same doctrine (Rigdon). Of course, Smith probably had something to do with the book's final draft, but as apologists like to point out, there are some things he probably couldn't have known or cared about, including the neoclassical political ideas, which certainly don't support an ancient author, but not a lazy barefoot one either. Thanks for the links.

By: M.C. Lo-Carb!

M.C. Lo-Carb! — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 08:43:52 -0800

I fail to understand why Mormonism is seen as any more ridiculous than any other magical omnipotent creator/protector life-is-only-a-precursor-to-the-promised-land belief systems. Just because it is newer doesn't make it any dumber than the rest.

By: mrgrimm

mrgrimm — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:11:38 -0800

You seem to be referring to the fact that Smith claimed to translate the "golden plates" by peering in a hat at a seer stone in the bottom and dictating the Book of Mormon to a scribe, the "plates" admittedly not in the room. That is undisputed by anyone. I dispute it.

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:51:59 -0800

I dispute it. You weren't there. It is undisputed by firsthand accounts.

By: cenoxo

cenoxo — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 08:27:01 -0800

Brian B. said: Of course, Smith probably had something to do with the book's final draft, but as apologists like to point out, there are some things he probably couldn't have known or cared about, including the neoclassical political ideas, which certainly don't support an ancient author, but not a lazy barefoot one either. In our current era of modern enlightenment, we tend to underestimate two things: 1) the knowledge available to 19th Century barefoot boys; and 2) the gullibility of the American public in any age. As an author, Joseph Smith, Jr. may have had much in common with L. Ron Hubbard, but martyrdom (however perceived) and overblown persecution helped things along considerably.

By: Broadside Affront

Broadside Affront — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 09:28:17 -0800

M.C. Lo-Carb! wrote: > I fail to understand why Mormonism is seen as any more > ridiculous...Just because it is newer... It is not more ridiculous, but to my mind it is more gallingly outrageous because it happened in recent enough historical times that we can clearly see the whole con unfolding. Plenty of first hand accounts and primary evidence exist that have allowed historians to reconstruct the story clearly. And still the story becomes faith-based fact in the minds of a growing number of believers now many millions strong. It's very creepy to watch this go down. A couple of experienced hucksters just stole the manuscript of a lame unpublished book from a dead guy (Solomon Spalding, my ancestor BTW), interpolated their own favorite "thou shalts" and "shalt nots" into it (possibly their favorite one: thou shalt not wig out when old dudes like me snog as many really young girls as I want because God is a horny old man too and you will burn in hell if you withold your daughters from me), cooked up a whopper of a story about its acquisition, and put it out there. It contained virulent memes: the idea that the native Americans were actually Israelites was popular at the time. It's discouraging, to say the least, to see how possible it is to invent a religion from whole cloth and sell it to millions. Mark Twain's quote is brilliant and on target, as usual. Some of the folks in New York state who already knew the Book of Mormon story from readings by Solomon Spalding (my great great great great uncle- Spalding is my middle name) said they used to joke about the language of the stories. Some of them referred to the original author as Old"It Came to Pass."

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:18:56 -0800

What you say intrigues me, Broadside Affront. How can I subscribe to your views? Would a cheque made out to cash help?