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April 8, 2007 4:37 PM   Subscribe

Controversial Christian cartoonist Johnny Hart dies.
posted by naoko (161 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite

 
RIP.
Was he hit by a rock?
posted by rob511 at 4:41 PM on April 8, 2007


I was never a fan of B.C. and enjoyed the mockery it received on The Comics Curmudgeon and elsewhere, but I'm sure he was a good guy. R.I.P. Mr. Hart.
posted by naoko at 4:43 PM on April 8, 2007


.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:43 PM on April 8, 2007


Summing him up as "controversial Christian cartoonist Johnny Hart" is just the sort of write-off I'd expect from someone who didn't know anything about the guy. Sure, he went nuts, and his Christian comics blew, but before that, his comics were well drawn and contained interesting wordplay and clever visual puns. He was not a bad cartoonist, and what he did was not entirely Christian or controversial.
posted by interrobang at 4:45 PM on April 8, 2007 [7 favorites]


I won't say that I'm glad he's dead (it's not like he ever caused me any harm, after all, and I imagine that he wasn't a bad person, personally), but I figure that there were only a couple of ways that he'd stop proselytizing in the funnies and I'll take what I can get.
posted by solid-one-love at 4:45 PM on April 8, 2007 [4 favorites]


.
posted by roll truck roll at 4:47 PM on April 8, 2007


.|.
posted by kafziel at 4:52 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


s-o-l
Whoa. Nice. There's also the whole "not reading them" part.
posted by The Deej at 4:55 PM on April 8, 2007


I'd expect you to defend him, Interrobang— you've been featured.
posted by klangklangston at 4:55 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


So it's A.B.C. now, then?

RIP.
posted by jonmc at 4:56 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Meanwhile, Jack Chick is still going strong.
posted by Effigy2000 at 4:59 PM on April 8, 2007


I think it will be interesting to see whether B.C. stays in the papers, a la Peanuts and Dennis the Menace, or some space is freed up for a new comic.

Interrobang - I'm too young to remember his comics from his pre-born-again days, so you're right, there's a significant chunk of his life that I don't know anything about. I did some cursory searching for earlier work, interviews, etc. but didn't come up with anything.
His later work seems pretty overwhemingly Christian, though. He suggested in this interview that he saw the strip as his ministry (and completely avoids answering the question "How can you have Jesus in a strip called B.C.?")
posted by naoko at 5:03 PM on April 8, 2007


interrobang: Well, you have to admit that for most of us, he would just be "that one guy who does the comics about cavemen and the other one with the short king guy" without his odd religious ruckus-raising once in a while.

Kinda like the dude who made the huge comic with the talking aardvark or whatever. He'd be 50% less well known if he wasn't such a fucking nutbar.
posted by Avenger at 5:04 PM on April 8, 2007


Does anyone have examples of his pre-reformation comics? I have often heard they used to be quite clever and different before he moved into the same-joke Christian drudgery, but I've never been able to find them.
posted by schroedinger at 5:05 PM on April 8, 2007


This is all very interesting, I didn't know anything about the "menorah" controversy. That cartoon (as described) sounds despicable. I must say, over the years I've usually enjoyed BC, but not being a regular newspaper buyer, I've missed more of his strips than I've seen. At any rate, I never discerned any fundamentalist Christian message in his work, particularly. Loved his pun stuff.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:06 PM on April 8, 2007


I'm so old, I remember when B.C. was funny.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:07 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Well, before he went all fundie, B.C. was often genuinely funny. After he went all fundie it was funny less often, but still better than Garfield(TM).
posted by sotonohito at 5:07 PM on April 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


There you go, I guess I haven't read him since he "went fundie". Guess I'm old, too.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:09 PM on April 8, 2007


flapjax at midnite This is the best I could find quickly. Its the entire cartoon, but with some guy's rants between the panels.
posted by sotonohito at 5:10 PM on April 8, 2007


Here's another vote for a new cartoon strip to be featured. I'm tired of all the recycled stuff (Classic Peanuts?). As one of the Joshreads commenters said, "Hopefully we can be spared a zomBC strip."
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 5:11 PM on April 8, 2007


Hey, thanks for the link, sotonohito. And yep, it's despicable.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:12 PM on April 8, 2007


B.C. was on rare occasion funny, and Wizard of Id was at least cute. I find it sad that he's dead.
posted by Citizen Premier at 5:14 PM on April 8, 2007


I'm so old, I remember when B.C. was funny.

Me too. I loved it when I was a kid. It hasn't been worth reading in years, but I never found it actively objectionable (as I do, for instance, Garfield), and I'm not glad the man's dead.
posted by languagehat at 5:18 PM on April 8, 2007


I'm so old, I can remember when I thought Grog's Revenge for the C64 was fun.
posted by Staggering Jack at 5:23 PM on April 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


i was just gonna say, that c64 game was fun!
posted by jcruelty at 5:25 PM on April 8, 2007


I think Family Guy summed up how perfectly lame B.C. was.
posted by GavinR at 5:27 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Hey, I liked Wizard of Id. And yea, he's not really "the controversial Christian cartoonist".
posted by Firas at 5:29 PM on April 8, 2007


I think Family Guy summed up how perfectly lame B.C. was.

Interestingly, the intentionally bad pun that the Family Guy writers came up with to diss BC is funnier than most of the other lame attempts at humor they normally come up with for that adolescent and mean-spirited show.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:30 PM on April 8, 2007


Yes, he may have been an asshole and a bigot, he could draw cartoon cavemen, so I guess he wasn't all bad.
posted by 2sheets at 5:31 PM on April 8, 2007


B.C. was the Cathy of prehistoric-context comics.
posted by found missing at 5:32 PM on April 8, 2007


2sheets, nothing I've read has convinced me that he's either an asshole or a complete bigot.
posted by Firas at 5:32 PM on April 8, 2007


Is it just me, or does it stink in here?
posted by sourwookie at 5:34 PM on April 8, 2007


I'm not glad the man's dead

In my view he made the world a slightly baser, ugler place with his slams & sly cheap shots against Muslims and their religion.

Now, I am far from PC in this area (I slam religious/cultural BS as I see it and will happily & casually opine that [in the modern, post-Enlightenment world] the more 'Islamic' a place is the more f-ed up it is) but a fundie attacking another flavor of fundie (and Jews, and whoever else) on the funny pages is not something I'm going to miss.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 5:35 PM on April 8, 2007


My all-time favorite B.C. comic strip was the one where B.C. is introducing someone to Curly (the extremely sarcastic character). The newly-introduced invites Curly to "say something sarcastic" to which Curly replies, "Pleased to meet you."
posted by spock at 5:36 PM on April 8, 2007


He was funnier before he became a fundamentalist, but he was also dangerously alcoholic (this does not seem to be common knowledge). So he had to choose between believing ten stupid things before breakfast, or dying. And he chose.

He also wasn't much of a cartoonist--the drawings you see are generally not by him, or are copies of drawings not by him. But he did the hard part--he created engaging situations, stories, characters, and gags. In abundance (to quote Dr Frank).

And he stayed on the wagon, or at least seemed to. Not like a certain duck-copying right-wing christian polluter of the comics pages.
posted by hexatron at 5:38 PM on April 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


Now that I see that slam strip again, it's pretty clearly intentional... especially with the crescent on the door. Yeah, he probably was a bigot.
posted by Firas at 5:39 PM on April 8, 2007


You'd be surprised how many people claim they can't see that, Firas, even right here on Metafilter.
posted by Justinian at 5:50 PM on April 8, 2007


event right here on Metafilter.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 5:52 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


As a kid, I used to study his drawings intently. I could copy them. I think it was because whenever I tried to draw the peanuts characters, I failed. Hart's images where easier. Funny thing is that since the NYTimes doesn't have comics, I haven't given Hart a thought in 15 (?) years.
posted by R. Mutt at 5:59 PM on April 8, 2007


Are we even pretending anymore?
posted by Balisong at 6:09 PM on April 8, 2007 [5 favorites]


So, they opened his cave and it's empty?
posted by orthogonality at 6:13 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


The Christians are still out there, but they're hiding," [Hart] said. "They're afraid because every time somebody tries to make a move, somebody steps on them and pushes them back or locks them out."

He said this in 1999. I have to wonder what universe he's returning to. I belong to a Christian denomination, but I have had entirely too much "Christian culture". I honestly wish Christians did hide. Unfortunately, they (we?) are way too "in your face".

Back in the 70s, I liked the strip. I even liked several of the strips where he discussed faith. But not all of them; several of them really brought ugliness of the currently popular version of Christianity to the forefront.
posted by Doohickie at 6:16 PM on April 8, 2007


They are going to keep printing the comic but now it is going to be called BCE.
posted by Falconetti at 6:17 PM on April 8, 2007 [7 favorites]


.
posted by konolia at 6:20 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


I too remember when B.C. was good. I even remember seeing the Christmas special mentioned in the Wikipedia article, which was rather weird.

On the "SLAM" gag, you can look at it this way: it takes genuine talent to hide an insulting statement in such a way that it looks like a bad outhouse joke. Talent misapplied perhaps, but the man was never stupid. Even now, I am not exactly sure it actually IS a knock on Islam or just a lame strip that people have made too much fuss about.

In any case, I am sure that he is more than deserving of a ., so, .

(P.S., does anyone have a link to his last strip? Oh wait, he worked in advance so it won't have been printed yet. I got confused when Schulz died approximately when his last strip ran.)
posted by JHarris at 6:21 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Hm, when I said the man was never stupid, I may have misspoke.
posted by JHarris at 6:25 PM on April 8, 2007


Dip In Road is in my top-five favorite book covers of all time.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:28 PM on April 8, 2007


Interesting coincidence, as I had been searching last night for some Easter related cartoon strips to use and kept turning up references to Hart. Hadn't thought about him or his strip for years previous to last night.
posted by Zinger at 6:29 PM on April 8, 2007


Meanwhile, Jack Chick is still going strong.

Wow, that's one of the least offensive Chick tracts I've ever seen. It actually attempts to stick to what the Bible says, not what he wants it to say.

B.C. was on rare occasion funny, and Wizard of Id was at least cute. I find it sad that he's dead.

Yeah, I'm annoyed that my local newspaper growing up got rid of Wizard of Id, but not the snooze-fests that are Gil Thorp and Mary Worth. Does anyone actually read that crap?

I never found it actively objectionable (as I do, for instance, Garfield)

I think Garfield would have to have actual content (something it has lacked for decades) in order to be objectionable.

I slam religious/cultural BS

I see what you did there.
posted by oaf at 6:31 PM on April 8, 2007


I am sure that he is more than deserving of a .

Doesn't a '.' imply the subject has made the world a better place, the dot representing a moment to ponder the loss?

In my world, one could elide Johnny Hart and all his creations and not see a net loss to humanity at all.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:33 PM on April 8, 2007


Whatever... so BC was funny a long time ago, but that is the problem with most strips, they where good when they started and generally sucked more and more as time goes on, hell I use to like for better or for worse. So, we live in an atmosphere where Doonesbury gets regulated to the editorial page because it occasionally espouses a political viewpoint, but BC which for years has espoused a certain religious viewpoint is run and run and run. I would bet some amount of money that BC and Wizard of Id stay on the pages, people don't like changes to their "funny" pages. I am not "happy" he passed away, but I wish to hell his strips had been remaindered a long time ago.
posted by edgeways at 6:38 PM on April 8, 2007


A . is a moment of silence. I'd say anyone who didn't actually harm the world deserves one, and B.C. was once a top-tier strip, so whatever harm was caused by his proselyting is probably made up for in the final tally.
posted by JHarris at 6:50 PM on April 8, 2007


Wow. We're getting the I'm Not "Happy" He's Dead, But I Still Feel The Need To Chime In About His Death Because Of My Religious Politics shit over a flip-past-his-strip-looking-for-Pearls-Before-Swine-In-The-Sunday-Funnies cartoonist? We'll pretty much dance on anyone's grave, won't we? Maybe it's not a full-on samba or anything, but it's always amazing the number of people who will take a quick *tappity-tap* over pretty much anyone.

*checks where Maggie Thatcher is in his 2007 Death Pool.*

Oh yeah, that thread's gonna be fuuun.

posted by Cyrano at 6:50 PM on April 8, 2007 [3 favorites]


Doonesbury gets regulated to the editorial page

I thought that Trudeau requested/demanded that his strip get moved to the Editorial page? I could be confused, but I could have sworn I remembered this from my childhood reading the Washington Post.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:53 PM on April 8, 2007


Welcome to the internets, Cyrano. I don't see why discussing Hart's impact on the world is off-limits on this comment page, or why I should be required to honor his passing.

The man brought the "Religious Politics shit" to the funny pages. This makes him an interesting subject of discussion.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:57 PM on April 8, 2007


robocop is bleeding: The lovely newspaper I mentioned above relegates Dilbert to the business section. I wish I were joking.
posted by oaf at 7:05 PM on April 8, 2007


My Religious Politics? Hell boy, my My Religious Politics never made it to the papers, let along the funny pages. Sorry I had the temerity to comment on the passing of someone who has become a hack. And guess what? I can make those comments without having the desire for any given person to be struck dead, unlike radical Christians, which Mr. Heart appears to have become.
posted by edgeways at 7:08 PM on April 8, 2007


There should be some sort of serial killer that goes around, one by one, offing anyone who's been on the comics page more than 20 years.
posted by fungible at 7:11 PM on April 8, 2007


Yeah, I'm annoyed that my local newspaper growing up got rid of Wizard of Id, but not the snooze-fests that are Gil Thorp and Mary Worth. Does anyone actually read that crap?

Josh does! So you don't have to. I mean, I didn't even know those existed until I found the blog.
posted by Many bubbles at 7:12 PM on April 8, 2007


Let's not forget Hart's deathless contribution to my alma mater. Zot zot!
posted by thomas j wise at 7:12 PM on April 8, 2007


Isn't it kinda ironic that he died on easter? Especially with all the "It is finished" stuff he published so often on these days. Suprised nobody's mentioned that.
posted by Brainy at 7:13 PM on April 8, 2007


.
posted by IronLizard at 7:15 PM on April 8, 2007


A lot of people died on Easter.
posted by homunculus at 7:18 PM on April 8, 2007


But only one respawned.
posted by IronLizard at 7:23 PM on April 8, 2007 [7 favorites]


IronLizard earns 10 yard penalty for flubbing Christian mythology joke.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 7:31 PM on April 8, 2007


Never funny. The strip featured crude drawing, mysogynistic elements ("the character "Fat Broad"), and bad puns. I stopped reading it years ago. The Wizard of ID also failed to ever, ever be funny. I imagine some talented cartoonists never got a chance because of J. Hart coasting along through the decades, taking up space and sucking. I hope they don't start recycling his shit.

Oh :
.
posted by longsleeves at 7:36 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


I have to admit that I'm not sad. But I think the people feeling the need to be snarky about the guy and claim the world is better of without him are overreacting to his proselytizing. I also can't imagine that at least some of the same people would be outraged at the same sort of reaction to an outspoken, controversial cartoonist they agreed with.

I'm one of the people who said some extremely negative things about Reagan in his obituary thread. It's interesting that there was a little bit of flack over that thread. But can't you see the difference between one of the most influential political leaders in the world who made decisions about starting wars and other things and a bloody cartoonist?? Hart's Islam strip was bigoted but it's nothing to compared to the sorts of things many conservative commentators are saying every day in newspaper columns, on the radio, and on television. In relative terms, Hart was harmless. He was an old man who got religion late in life and expressed it simplemindedly in his creative work. Big deal. That's not even close to justification for people to dance on his grave. Get some perspective.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:36 PM on April 8, 2007 [4 favorites]


Respawned? I thought he saved.

I don't know why, 'cause he's playing in god mode anyway.
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:39 PM on April 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


"(and completely avoids answering the question 'How can you have Jesus in a strip called B.C.?')"
posted by naoko at 7:03 PM on April 8

...you mean you don't get it? THAT'S WHY IT'S FUNNY!

I suppose you're still hoping to ask the chicken why she crossed the road, huh? Too late. She's dead too.
posted by ZachsMind at 7:59 PM on April 8, 2007


In case you missed it, Hart's Easter strip starts with a fully lighted menorah. One by one the candles burn out following the utterance of each of the seven last "words" of Jesus.
Does anyone know what they're referring to, here?

The Bible makes three mutually contradictory claims as to the last words of Jesus. In none of them are there seven words.

The Gospel according to John says they were "It is finished" - three words.

The Gospel according to Luke says "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" - eight words.

The Gospel according to Marks says "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - four words, or, translated, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" - nine words.

Maybe he's going off of some non-King James translation? Does anyone know what the strip actually said?
posted by Flunkie at 8:05 PM on April 8, 2007


Jesus Christ = up up down down left right left right B A start for the soul
posted by Falconetti at 8:07 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Flunkie: it's linked above.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 8:21 PM on April 8, 2007


People who think he died on Easter, should read the article. He died on Saturday, but it wasn't posted here until Sunday. Not that there is any significance either way.
posted by spock at 8:22 PM on April 8, 2007


Does anyone know what they're referring to, here?

Hey, I found a site at http://www.google.com! I entered the phrase 'seven last words of jesus' and got a list of sites!!!!!! From one of the links:

"The Seven Last "Words" of Jesus Christ from the cross are actually 7 short phrases that Jesus uttered on Calvary. To find all of the seven last words of Jesus Christ, one must read all the gospels since none of the evangelists records all 7 last words.

I'm thinking of writing a FPP about The Google Search Site, but I want to make sure it's not a double.

(OK, sorry for the snark, it's all in good fun really.)
posted by The Deej at 8:24 PM on April 8, 2007


For those of you complaining about strips like Peanuts continuing in reprint -- or strips like B.C. you found lame -- preventing what must be superior, undiscovered strips from getting their shot...

read this, then return.
posted by evilcolonel at 8:26 PM on April 8, 2007


Flunkie, here's the strip.
posted by Partial Law at 8:30 PM on April 8, 2007


"That's not even close to justification for people to dance on his grave"

Examples, other than kafziel, which was a pretty abbreviated jig.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 8:32 PM on April 8, 2007


(OK, sorry for the snark, it's all in good fun really.)

Snark in good fun is the best kind of snark!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:33 PM on April 8, 2007


Hey, I found a site at http://www.google.com! I entered the phrase 'seven last words of jesus' and got a list of sites!!!!!!
Ah. So by "seven last words", they meant "seven sets of words spoken at various points in time near his death", as opposed to, um, "seven last words".

Is this the point where I'm supposed to apologize for not being an idiot?
posted by Flunkie at 8:55 PM on April 8, 2007


"seven last words"

Then of course there's Jesus' lesser-known "seven last words at the last supper": "God, I'm stuffed. So what's for dessert?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:00 PM on April 8, 2007 [3 favorites]


Ah. So by "seven last words", they meant "seven sets of words spoken at various points in time near his death", as opposed to, um, "seven last words".

This is why we need more grouping-oriented use of brackets and such in English. If they're going to call them that, it should be "seven [last words]s" or something.
posted by Many bubbles at 9:01 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Strike that--obviously it should be {}, not [].
posted by Many bubbles at 9:02 PM on April 8, 2007


Every man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind.

.
posted by Justinian at 9:03 PM on April 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


Is this the point where I'm supposed to apologize for not being an idiot?
posted by Flunkie


Nooo! You don't have to apologize if you don't want to.
posted by The Deej at 9:04 PM on April 8, 2007


I have to admit that I'm not sad. But I think the people feeling the need to be snarky about the guy and claim the world is better of without him are overreacting to his proselytizing.

Me, I'm not so sure. I think that people are reacting to his proselytzing as a symptom of his suckage and lameosity as a cartoonist.

Take me, born in 70. I remember BC when it didn't suck. I remember the dawn, blossoming, and death of Bloom County, followed by its zombified half-life. I remember the Calvin and Hobbes and the early rush of The Far Side.

And all of them are gone. Some in their prime. So I look at the funnies, and what's there? BC feeding me some lame bile about church and state, and Garfield. It's not just that the others are gone; BC is there rubbing holy salt in the wounds that Watterson and Larson and Breathed left, reminding me of all the others that I can't read anymore. The exhumed, rotting corpse of Opus is there too, but that's another story.

So anyway, I can be pissed about the lame proselytizing for reasons that don't have much to do with the lame proselytizing per se. Now I've got to go read Luann and Foxtrot, or maybe Zits. *pukes*
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:04 PM on April 8, 2007 [3 favorites]


Metafilter: {}, not [].
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:04 PM on April 8, 2007


Seven last {sets of} words {spoken at various times and recorded in various places} of Christ.

How much more obvious does it have to be?
posted by The Deej at 9:06 PM on April 8, 2007


Every man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind.

Women on the other hand.
posted by found missing at 9:09 PM on April 8, 2007


I always found it odd that the syndicates found B.C .and Id to be high enough quality to publish both.

Regarding Peanuts, which someone mentioned above, basically, when they stop running Peanuts is when they should just end the comic section.

Really.

Of course none of this will matter much in the long run. Print newspapers have, what, 10 years left? Maybe 20 if they make radical changes, but really, 20 years from now us reading folded paper that only has value for 1 day? Please say it isn't so.

Regarding Hart... I too remember back when BC was "funny". I think it would have been a better artistic choice to keep religious themes to only when Wiley appeared... a sort of visual cue that this strip is different from the others.

On preview, what ROU_Xenophobe said. Aack.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:10 PM on April 8, 2007


"So anyway, I can be pissed about the lame proselytizing for reasons that don't have much to do with the lame proselytizing per se."

Yeah, I can understand that.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:23 PM on April 8, 2007


He died on Easter? If so, how ironic.

Anyway, now I prefer Red Meat. What religion is Max Cannon? I recall a drinking buddy of mine claiming that if an American was intelligently funny s/he had to be Jewish (like him); Gore Vidal then must be of old "Marrano" stock.
posted by davy at 9:24 PM on April 8, 2007


Say what you like about the guy, and I have no particular opinion either way:

died at his drawing table after a stroke

That's quite the way for a cartoonist to go ...
posted by kaemaril at 9:24 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


SELECT 'phrases' FROM `christ_speech` WHERE `time`> -62267252800 ORDER BY `fame` DESC LIMIT 7;
posted by Firas at 9:25 PM on April 8, 2007


Print newspapers have, what, 10 years left? Maybe 20 if they make radical changes, but really, 20 years from now us reading folded paper that only has value for 1 day? Please say it isn't so.

This is an interesting point. From an environmental standpoint, print newspapers should probably go, but I really love the look and feel of a newspaper, especially when I'm eating breakfast or on the subway.

As for keeping old comics in the papers after their creators have left us...I guess we can hang onto Peanuts, but Dennis the Menace seriously needs to go.

I am deeply devoted to Get Fuzzy, Frazz, and Doonesbury when it's on one of its good streaks (they definitely come and go), and I still read For Better or For Worse (for some twisted reason), but other than that I wouldn't miss the comics much.
posted by naoko at 9:27 PM on April 8, 2007


I might also like DFC.
posted by davy at 9:30 PM on April 8, 2007


Justinian: did Pol Pot's death diminish you? The quote has force, but I don't entirely buy this humanism.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 9:33 PM on April 8, 2007


did Pol Pot's death diminish you

I was damn sorry Pol Pot died without ever having suffered for what he did. Motherfucker shoulda suffered. Then died.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:41 PM on April 8, 2007


flapjax at midnite
Damn you! Every time I see your name I get hungry!
posted by The Deej at 9:48 PM on April 8, 2007


Deej, stop by the place sometime and I'll cook you up some miso soup!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:50 PM on April 8, 2007


Well hell I wanted flapjacks but ok.
posted by The Deej at 9:53 PM on April 8, 2007


I, too, loved B.C. in the early days - some 40 years ago! That's an enormous amount of time in the life of a cartoonist, whose powers usually decline with age. In those days B.C. was not only satirical, but hip, too, in a jive, beatnik-y way. I urge those who haven't seen them to find the paperbacks of the early days - Take a Bow, B.C. and What's New, B.C., for instance. Of course, you'd have to know what the run-of-the-mill anodyne comic strip was like in those days to appreciate how fresh Hart's stuff was. He certainly hit bottom later on, however.

Peanuts was really funny in its early days as well - it peaked in the mid-1960's, in my opinion - and went downhill fast after that, with the constant flogging of tired Red Baron jokes, etc. For some reason, those great Peanuts cartoons are not recycled in "Classic Peanuts", just the tired, unfunny ones.
posted by QuietDesperation at 10:14 PM on April 8, 2007


A . is a moment of silence.

Huh, I always thought of the "." as representing a pebble left on a grave, a Jewish tradition of misty origin that represents respect for the dead. Ironic tribute, perhaps, in Hart's case.
posted by blahblahblah at 10:18 PM on April 8, 2007


One of the more fun things about BC IMHO was that so far as I know he never gave names to the two women. They were always "the fat broad" and "the good looking one".

(If that's wrong, and he did name them later, I'm going to be really disappointed.)

Someone up there made the comment that Hart didn't do his own drawings. Could you perhaps be mixing him up with Charles Schulz? Later in life Schulz's hands were seriously crippled by arthritis, and all the art for Peanuts was drawn by others.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 10:19 PM on April 8, 2007


Hey, blahblahblah, that's interesting, the pebble on the grave. Beats flowers, IMO.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:21 PM on April 8, 2007


Seriously, do there exist no examples of his early strips online?
posted by schroedinger at 10:24 PM on April 8, 2007


Ah, they were named "Fat Broad" and "Cute Chick". That's even better.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 10:25 PM on April 8, 2007


Steven, completely untrue. No one's hands except Schulz's ever touched the daily Peanuts strip.
posted by evilcolonel at 10:34 PM on April 8, 2007


"One of the more fun things about BC IMHO was that so far as I know he never gave names to the two women."

What cracks me up about this thread is that everybody who has tried to say something nice about him makes me despise him even more.
posted by 2sheets at 10:59 PM on April 8, 2007


Meanwhile, Jack Chick is still going strong.

That was the first thing I thought, too. There is a joyous analysis of Jack Chick by Robin Ince and Stewart Lee in this podcast, if anyone's still reading this and is a Jack Chick afficianado.
posted by greycap at 11:09 PM on April 8, 2007


What cracks me up about this thread is that everybody who has tried to say something nice about him makes me despise him even more.

Try seething at this one: He was the first cartoonist to sign up with Creators Syndicate, one of the first syndication houses to give creative control over to their artists and writers. It was a revolutionary approach, especially for cartoonists.

But Richard Newhouse was a compatriot of Murdoch, so please aim your bile that way.
posted by dw at 11:10 PM on April 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Regarding the smelly outhouse joke: when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like bigotry.
posted by roll truck roll at 11:19 PM on April 8, 2007


To me, it was especially ironic that he died of a stroke while working on the day between Good Friday and Easter Sunday. While most of us prefer that, if we die at all, we die while doing something we love, the timing is still sucky for him.

His Easter 2007 comic contained the cringeworthy opening line "Your final math question is: how old was Jesus when he was crucified?" (said by the teacher in the anthill school with the sign "SKOOL" - doesn't speak well for religious schooling over public schools)

Then the day after Easter, the now departed cartoonist gives us a reading from "The Book of Phrases"... "Eating disorder: Drinking white wine with a hot dog".

I wish it went back farther, but the "members only" comics.com archive of B.C. starts at January 1, 2000, with a conversation between bugs...
"Hi there, I'm a centipede. I have 100 legs."
"HAH! I have TEN TIMES that many!"
"Who was that, Earl?"
"The millennium bug."
mildly humorous...

January 2nd was one of those weird correspondence between B.C. and somebody on the other side of the ocean via stone tablets that float:
B.C. writes: "Over here we're entering a NEW millennium! With NEW technology and a NEW ideology: ONE world, ONE government, ONE religion! No more stupid outmoded ideas!"
Response from over the sea: "And I guess your NEW credo would be: "Eternity Sucks"... right?"
Straw Man with Chip on Shoulder, anybody?

January 3rd, a definition from Wiley's Dictionary: "Y2K: The superlative expression of working without a net".
subtle, wry, too bad there WAS no Y2K computer disaster

January 4th, Ant teacher: "Okay, class, who can tell us the meaning of the term 'Big Bang'?"
Ant student: "It's the sound of the Supreme Court gavel, outlawing God in schools."
Harsh, but more of an actual JOKE than Mallard ever does

January 5th, Fat Broad says to Cute Chick: "This year, I resolve to be kind to dumb animals."
Snake (who has been regularly beaten by Fat Chick for 40+ years) overhears and writes on a rock "2+2=5"
Fat Chick, with club over head, about to beat Snake, says: "Too smart."
interesting variation on running joke, can be interpreted more than one way, but didn't really bring the funny

January 6th, a message out of the wisdom-dispensing "You Know" rock: "You know you're overweight when you step on a scale and it disappears from sight."
lame fat joke

January 7th, sign says "Flea Market Today - All Dogs Welcome"
Cute Chick says: "Hey, look, Fats. How cute."
Fat Broad thinks: "This could turn ugly."
WTF? I am NOT making this up!!!

And there you have a full week of latter-day B.C., just for a little perspective.
posted by wendell at 11:24 PM on April 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


Ever since Opera started supporting a "open all URLs in folder" command, I've been reading my comics online. Two keystrokes ("2" + "ENTER") and up pop some fifteen strips.

Haven't read a print comic in quite some time. My collection is much, much better than that offered by any of the newspapers.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:38 PM on April 8, 2007


Fuck it.

.

I'll miss railing against his right-wing Christian nuttery. And the early strips were indeed funny.
posted by brundlefly at 11:48 PM on April 8, 2007


Mean old man dies, holier-than-thou MeFites trample each other to be the first to suck his rotting cock and whitewash his hideous message, film at eleven, thread at twelve.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:11 AM on April 9, 2007


Because MeFites are generally extremely friendly to XIANS, right OC?
posted by brundlefly at 12:12 AM on April 9, 2007


If it can get them into the jonmc/delmoi Kool Kids Kontrarian Klub, sure.

Look: Hart spent twenty years of his life talking about how horrible the Jews and Muslims were. So I took thirty seconds out of my schedule to tell you all I think he's a nasty piece of shit. And now he's dead. And in forty years I'll be dead and Hart's grandkids can villify me. Twiddle-dee-doo.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:35 AM on April 9, 2007 [5 favorites]


when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like bigotry

There's this analytical approach called Bayesian Inference. Check it out sometime, it might make you smarter / less stupid.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 1:02 AM on April 9, 2007


brundlefly: Mefites have a problem with dumbasses. These come in all flavors, sizes, and stripes.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 1:04 AM on April 9, 2007


My all-time favorite B.C. comic strip was the one where B.C. is introducing someone to Curly (the extremely sarcastic character). The newly-introduced invites Curly to "say something sarcastic" to which Curly replies, "Pleased to meet you."

Spock, I still think of that one regularly after 25+ years.

I remember B.C. fondly as a kid, but I'm afraid if I reread it now, it'd be just as insipid as his recent stuff.

For some reason, those great Peanuts cartoons are not recycled in "Classic Peanuts", just the tired, unfunny ones.

See, is that really it? I was a kid when I liked em. You probably were, too.
posted by dreamsign at 1:05 AM on April 9, 2007


wow that's a joke?
posted by delmoi at 1:29 AM on April 9, 2007


I guess all his "sunday" strips were overly religious, going by the website.
posted by delmoi at 1:32 AM on April 9, 2007


.
posted by mmoncur at 1:36 AM on April 9, 2007


Mark Evanier from POV Online remembering Johnny Hart.
posted by JHarris at 1:55 AM on April 9, 2007


died at his drawing table

It's been done...
posted by kmennie at 3:48 AM on April 9, 2007


Let's face it -- if you're a newspaper cartoonist and your name isn't Berke Breathed, Gary Larson, Gary Trudeau or Bill Watterson -- you pretty much suck *ss in comparison.

I'm a Boinger.
posted by ELF Radio at 3:48 AM on April 9, 2007


Johnny Hart was far more than a "Christian cartoonist", and to dismiss the man based on a single aspect of his later career is a huge disservice.
In it's heyday, BC was actually a pretty good little strip. Unfortunately, like most popular strips, it stayed around far beyond it's expiration date. Still, he will be missed.


.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:42 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


There's this analytical approach called Bayesian Inference.

wow, do i feel stupid ... to think that all this time i was analyzing comic strips by looking at the pictures and reading the text in the balloons

after running bayesian inference analysis on the great "islam comic strip" controversy i have come up with the irrefutable conclusion that people are making bullshit conjectures over a 3 1/2 year old comic strip and seriously need to get a life
posted by pyramid termite at 5:01 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Every man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind.

I used to believe that but the 2000 election changed all of that. No hatred in that statement. I am thinking of utility with the common good in mind. And no, I am not advocating we execute anyone, either. I am just thinking what if so-and-so had dropped dead (insert Cheney to begin with) in 1999? Would I be diminished? I think not.

On another note, I am beating myself up because it seems with a little (very little) imagination one could make some serious bucks catering to the right wing christian propaganda machine. I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to do and the christian buck is a good buck.
posted by a_day_late at 5:10 AM on April 9, 2007


"Now that I see that slam strip again, it's pretty clearly intentional... especially with the crescent on the door."

Hart's menorah strip was despicable, and he may well have hated Judaism and Islam with a passion, but this whole outhouse brouhaha, based, apparently, on the fact that the outhouse has a crescent (interpreted as a representation of Islam) on it is off the mark. The crescent has been a design feature on outhouses in America since there were outhouses in America! It's THE defining design characteristic of the outhouse! Any cartoonist, no matter what his religious or political affiliation, if drawing an outhouse, would put a crescent on it. Read this:

"A moon and stars were used in colonial times to designate the sex of the outhouses. Originally the moon was for women and the star was for the men. But the men's outhouse was usually in such disrepair, everyone wanted to use the women's outhouse. ...so, eventually they quit using the stars altogether."

That's from a website with just about anything you'll ever need to know about outhouses. Here.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:22 AM on April 9, 2007


It's interesting that avenger draws the comparison with Dave Sim. As a student of Sim's work over the years, I should point out one important distinction.

Sim was a good letterer.
posted by Sparx at 5:44 AM on April 9, 2007


Uh, how would you recognize a drawing of an outhouse without a crescent? "Small box with door" = "shed". "Small box with door with crescent cut-out" = "outhouse". That's pretty much an iron rule of contemporary comic art shorthand.
posted by Bugbread at 6:10 AM on April 9, 2007


I really can't figure out the outhouse one. If the SLAM wasn't there, the accusation would be silly. Yes, there is a joke there without Islam angle. It's not a funny joke, but that appears to be par for the course. Everybody is right about outhouses on cresent moons, of course. Take the cresent moon off the door and you don't have an outhouse.

On the other hand, taking the Muslim angle out of the question there's no reason for the word "Slam" to appear in the strip. It doesn't matter if people slam outhouse doors or not, it matters that if the "slam" were deleted, nothing would be lost in strip (we'd still know the guy went into the outhouse because that's how we read comics).

So, I suppose I'll side with the intentional camp. Thanks for letting me work that all out here.

(BTW, BC is one of those cartoon strips that heavily feature golf jokes, right? You can tell how difficult the job of cartoonist is by the number of them that feature golf jokes).
posted by Bookhouse at 6:38 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Yes, flapjax at midnite, we all know that outhouses have crescents on the door. No one is claming that they don't and that Hart added a crescent for the purpose of going after Islam. Sometimes symbols are very handy that way.

But if you honestly, in your heart of hearts, can re-read that comic strip and not think that the two visual puns are intentionally relating to Islam, then I pity you. It takes real willpower to deny the obvious in the face of overwhelming evidence.

If the strip isn't about Islam, then what is it? Poop smells bad? Seriously, even Fred Basset does better than that. That's not even a punchline. Someone else noted that if you take away the Muslim symbols, it's exactly the same as if he'd just typed "poop smells bad" in the middle of one long panel. Anyone who thinks that an evangelical Christian with a history of controversy would include the dual crescents and a reconstruction of "Islam" with negative space and not have the strip be about Islam is delusional or insane.

And don't forget, folks, Hart lied about it. He lied about it. He wasn't even man enough to admit it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:45 AM on April 9, 2007


Optimus Chyme writes "But if you honestly, in your heart of hearts, can re-read that comic strip and not think that the two visual puns are intentionally relating to Islam, then I pity you."

Bookhouse's justification kinda tipped me over to the "thinking its intentional" side, so in that, we both agree that it's a slam on Islam. However, if you really consider people who don't see a message in an obtuse comic strip "delusional or insane", then I pity you.

So, great, we all pity each other. We win!
posted by Bugbread at 6:52 AM on April 9, 2007


I was damn sorry Pol Pot died without ever having suffered for what he did. Motherfucker shoulda suffered. Then died.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:41 PM on April 8


Great! Kissinger is still alive, let's make him suffer for Cambodia...
posted by geos at 6:53 AM on April 9, 2007


Thing about teh crescent moon/outhouse bit: Yeah, sure. we all know the crescent moon signifies the outhouse. no problem there. Now explain the "SLAM" and the "stink" joke. Sure it stinks, it's an outhouse.

Without the potential slur against Islam, where's the joke? I didn't necessarily agree with the assessment of bigotry in the strip, but without it: where's the joke otherwise?
posted by grubi at 6:59 AM on April 9, 2007


.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 7:13 AM on April 9, 2007


making bullshit conjectures over a 3 1/2 year old comic strip and seriously need to get a life

How is this conjecture bs?

Is it not congruent with Hart's known views religions?
Is it not congruent with Hart's known predilections of politicizing his strip?

Granted, the danger of Bayesian Inference is thinking any inferences are Absolute Truths rather than provisional.

in your heart of hearts, can re-read that comic strip and not think that the two visual puns are intentionally relating to Islam, then I pity you

Not so much "think" in absolute terms, but I think people who deny the possibility, like pyramid and roll truck roll above, that Hart was making a cheap shot in that strip are evidently cognitively challenged.

Holding similar views about the fundamental backwardness of (radical) Islamic societies like the present Iran, I don't think this putative anti-Islamic statement would be necessarily bigoted, just not very constructive for a fundamentalist/evangelical Christian to be making in a public forum like that.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 7:32 AM on April 9, 2007


Summing him up as "controversial Christian cartoonist Johnny Hart" is just the sort of write-off I'd expect from someone who didn't know anything about the guy. Sure, he went nuts, and his Christian comics blew, but before that, his comics were well drawn and contained interesting wordplay and clever visual puns. He was not a bad cartoonist, and what he did was not entirely Christian or controversial.

As many have already pointed out, to say Hart didn't make "controversial" cartoons attacking other religions and often hiding behind a veil of personal piety is the only true sign of lack of knowledge about the man. And to point that out as a "write-off" is just nonsense. When OJ Simpson dies I sincerely doubt a lot of people are going to be saying "summing him up as a murderer just shows how little you know about his sports career."
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 8:06 AM on April 9, 2007


grubi writes "Without the potential slur against Islam, where's the joke?"

I agree that it's probably about Islam. But if you look at comics like Garfield, Peanuts, or Family Circle, you'll see that joke-less jokes aren't particularly uncommon on the funny pages.
posted by Bugbread at 8:17 AM on April 9, 2007


Ugh. Aside from the Christian angle, he was extremely offensive because in his little world women only come in two flavors-- either do-able cute (young) chicks or very undesirable (middle-aged) fat broads. Also in his world the best woman was a silent woman, because we all know in our hearts that woman have nothing useful to say.

On comics in general: I've been reading the daily newspaper since the early 70's and even had my mom cut out all the Doonesburys when I was abroad for 6 months. I love Trudeau, but on the other hand nobody has ever replaced Larson-- to this day, I miss him dreadfully.

A few months back the N & O "freshened up" the comics page by getting readers' input as to which strips to drop and which to add. Since then they have also run one new comic a month before putting it to the vote. Most of the new stuff is crap -- but at least it isn't boring, endlessly recycled crap. It is unbelievable to me that the comics page still carries Marmaduke, Garfield, Blondie, Beetle Bailey, Hi and Lois, Kudzu, and Dennis the Menace-- comics that are well past their freshness date.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:30 AM on April 9, 2007


When OJ Simpson dies I sincerely doubt a lot of people are going to be saying "summing him up as a murderer just shows how little you know about his sports career."

Way to be hyperbolic. All I'm saying is that before he became a fundamentalist asshole, he drew a fairly clever comic. Also, his drawing abilities seemed to improve with practice over the years, which is something some amateur political cartoonists seem to be incapable of.
posted by interrobang at 9:46 AM on April 9, 2007


Is it not congruent with Hart's known views religions?
Is it not congruent with Hart's known predilections of politicizing his strip?


That's kinda creepy.

Look, I think it was a throwaway joke. Lots of comics have them. The reason why the Peanuts reprints aren't that funny anymore is that we only remember the good ones. If we had to find some hidden meaning every time a comic strip falls flat, Jim Davis would have been stoned years ago.

Heywood Mogroot typed "Check it out sometime, it might make you smarter / less stupid."

Heywood Mogroot typed "but I think people who deny the possibility, like pyramid and roll truck roll above, that Hart was making a cheap shot in that strip are evidently cognitively challenged."

Uh, who are you? I've never said anything about your cognitive abilities.
posted by roll truck roll at 9:51 AM on April 9, 2007


Is this thread one of the "plate of beans" things I've read so much about? I think maybe it is.
posted by tkchrist at 10:35 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Agreed blahblahblah. I too have presumed that the reason we do the period thing here in MeFi is partly as a virtual equivalent of the jewish tradition, but one doesn't have to be jewish to participate, nor does the recipient have to be jewish. He just has to be dead.

The 'moment of silence' thing works too. It's actually perhaps for those who either have nothing more to say (as the loss has left them speechless) or they DO have a lot to say but prefer to just acknowledge the thread and the passing of a great person and move on, because rambling incessantly about the life of a person and whether or not you liked A or B about them is kinda petty and disrespectful.

Notice how so few are doing the "period" thing here. I've seen maybe a dozen in over a hundred posts.

Personally I can't recall BC being funny since before Star Wars. I presume that for kids it's supposed to be funny looking and for adults it's supposed to be theologically poignant. I believe that was Johnny Hart's intention. However, he repeatedly put his ethnocentric arrogance on the strip with a trowel.

He tended to not use Wizard of Id for his superego so much, but that didn't make it any more amusing.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:39 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Let's not forget Hart's deathless contribution to my alma mater. Zot zot!

That link refers to an anteater. Hart's creation was an eatanter.
posted by MtDewd at 10:51 AM on April 9, 2007


I find it hard to take Mark Evanier seriously.
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 11:02 AM on April 9, 2007


I liked BC in about 1983, when I was 10. My dad bought a few of the first compliations back from London one day - I think a friend at work had passed them on, or something, and I liked them. The ones on comics.com at the moment are AWFUL though.

Since then, hadn't thought about Hart once (the Christian thing hasn't been picked up here, as it's a while since BC has been in any UK papers).
posted by athenian at 11:09 AM on April 9, 2007


Heywood Mogroot writes "brundlefly: Mefites have a problem with dumbasses. These come in all flavors, sizes, and stripes."

Right you are. Just trying to point out the absurdity of the idea that MeFites generally go out of their way to defend bigots, and I regret my unintentional implication that Christians are bigots.
posted by brundlefly at 11:16 AM on April 9, 2007


.
posted by MythMaker at 12:08 PM on April 9, 2007


"Aside from the Christian angle, he was extremely offensive because in his little world women only come in two flavors-- either do-able cute (young) chicks or very undesirable (middle-aged) fat broads."

I agree. Not to dismiss the annoying proselytizing or the clumsy and unself-aware bigotry, but the sexism long predates this other stuff and has disturbed me for as long as I can remember the strip.

At any rate, judging this man as someone the world is better off without is just about equivalent to someone doing the same with regard to any of us here on the basis of what we've written on MeFi. There's so much more to a person—any person—than what little any of us know about Johnny Hart. There is far from sufficient basis to make the sorts of judgments that some are making in this thread.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:15 PM on April 9, 2007


If the strip isn't about Islam, then what is it?

A really, really lame attempt at a joke. If every comic strip that lame requires an ulterior motive, then what's really going on in Garfield and Hagar the Horrible?

I think the 'SLAM' was an attempt to make a strip with three nearly identical panels a little less visually boring; Hart probably knew that with a joke that lame, it needed all the help it could get.

I'd be willing to bet that if one went through past B.C. strips, one would find that visual formula -- three nearly identical panels with a sound effect vertically dividing two of them -- elsewhere. (But my interest in the subject is only just barely enough to finish this sentence and hit 'post'.)
posted by Zed_Lopez at 12:38 PM on April 9, 2007


roll truck, my response to you was prompted by your: "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like bigotry".

I think it was a throwaway joke

I respect that opinion since there is 99.9% of the so-called funny-page is a comic retirement home of lamosity.

My point is that it is not unfounded conspiracy theory, or slander, or otherwise unfair to Hart to read a bit more into what Hart was saying with that strip.

Hart's 4/1/2007 strip referenced Church & State separation wrt teaching the N.T. as a historical text.

The guy had fallen into being a fundie/evangelical crank. In my book the world will be better off without this brand of nuttery -- so no '.' for Mr Hart from me.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 12:47 PM on April 9, 2007


'.' looks like a power outlet.
posted by roll truck roll at 1:29 PM on April 9, 2007


.
posted by zarq at 2:22 PM on April 9, 2007


Several people have asked, "If you take away the SLAM!, where's the joke?"

The joke is the implied "It's just you."

I'm not saying that it's a funny joke. But it's a joke.

And I am saying this as someone who is pretty firmly convinced that the strip is an intentional attack on Islam.
posted by Flunkie at 4:34 PM on April 9, 2007


What a bunch of dumbasses!!!! if you did a little research, you would find that the SLAM strip was his response to the one where Bill the Cat goes into an outhouse, and the sound effect is written as HRISTIANITY!!!!! and there is a cross-shaped window in the door, and Bill the Cat says "Ack!!!! Did I cough up a crap-filled furball, or does it stink in here anyway??????"

Dumbasses.

Dumbassi???
posted by The Deej at 6:33 PM on April 9, 2007 [2 favorites]


The denial stinks in here.
posted by 2sheets at 11:21 PM on April 9, 2007


Notice how so few are doing the "period" thing here. I've seen maybe a dozen in over a hundred posts.

Do we have an opposite of '.' ? '!.' perhaps? 'Cause if we had an opposite of it, a sort of "The world is better off without you and your bigotry." I suspect we'd be seeing it a lot more here.

(on a side note, we really should work on coming up with one, as I have my "I'm so glad you're dead, Anita Bryant" FPP all ready to go.)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 6:46 AM on April 11, 2007


I nominate 'o' as the closest thing to a photonegative of '.' as we're likely to get hereabouts.
posted by jtron at 2:42 AM on April 13, 2007


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