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April 10, 2007 1:10 PM   Subscribe

No-fly list? Sure, we remember that. It's caused some inconvenience. Some people you wouldn't think of as terrorists are on it. Then again, some known terrorists are on that list. But that's old hat; now the government has a new terrorist list. it's almost all foreigners, but if your name or part of your name is on it, you might have problems.
posted by Kirth Gerson (43 comments total)

 
from the fourth link, about the no-fly list:
"Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that." I explained that I had not so marched but had, in September, 2006, given a lecture at Princeton, televised and put on the Web, highly critical of George Bush for his many violations of the Constitution. "That'll do it," the man said. "
The new list is a deal-breaker - literally:
The lawyers' committee has documented at least a dozen cases in which U.S. customers have had transactions denied or delayed because their names were a partial match with a name on the list, which runs more than 250 pages and includes 3,300 groups and individuals. No more than a handful of people on the list, available online, are U.S. citizens.

Yet anyone who does business with a person or group on the list risks penalties of up to $10 million and 10 to 30 years in prison, a powerful incentive for businesses to comply. The law's scope is so broad and guidance so limited that some businesses would rather deny a transaction than risk criminal penalties, the report finds.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:11 PM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]


Man America loves its lists.
posted by chunking express at 1:14 PM on April 10, 2007 [2 favorites]


*puts chunking express on list*
posted by monju_bosatsu at 1:16 PM on April 10, 2007 [3 favorites]


"Neil Leverenz, chief executive of Automotive Compliance Center in Phoenix, a firm that helps auto dealers comply with federal law, said he spoke to the general manager of a Tucson dealership who tearfully told him that if he had known to check the OFAC list in late summer of 2001, he would not have sold the car used by Mohamed Atta, who went on to fly a plane into the World Trade Center"

Yes, had he only not sold him that car, Atta would've been left standing curbside in front of his apartment the morning of 9/11.

It's all that guy's fault.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:17 PM on April 10, 2007 [6 favorites]


Man, I am so glad I only share a last name with a minor Nazi war criminal.
posted by wendell at 1:18 PM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]


fawk.

There is some discussion about this over at Schneier's blog.
posted by chunking express at 1:18 PM on April 10, 2007


Damn, America. You really are fucked up.
posted by humblepigeon at 1:22 PM on April 10, 2007


Here's the latest list. Memorize it. Use it.

Why do I get the feeling Barack Hussein Obama is totally screwed?
posted by wendell at 1:29 PM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]


Yet anyone who does business with a person or group on the list risks penalties of up to $10 million and 10 to 30 years in prison

Somehow there has to be a way to link this to Revelation and The Mark of The Beast ™ ...
posted by MikeMc at 1:31 PM on April 10, 2007


wendell typed "Why do I get the feeling Barack Hussein Obama is totally screwed?"

That was my first thought. It seems like this could be step 1 of a campaign to dehumanize him.
posted by roll truck roll at 1:33 PM on April 10, 2007


Actually this is step 3 of the dehumanization campaign. Step 1 was to take a picture of him in his swimming trunks. Step 2 was to have a leading New York Times columnist write about his ears. I have only heard rumors about Step 4 and Step 5 but I have heard that a knock-knock joke and an air horn might be involved.
posted by Slap Factory at 1:43 PM on April 10, 2007 [4 favorites]


If this doesn't get changed, then this is so blatenly dumb it is mind boggling.

What will the government do once "the bad guys" start using common American surnames (or politicians names)? By using the 15 most common surnames 10-20 million Americans could theoretically be shut out of the economy. This could happen without an attack ever actually occurring.
posted by umop-apisdn at 1:50 PM on April 10, 2007


It seems like this could be step 1 of a campaign to dehumanize him.

Barack Obama appeared on The Late Show with David Letterman last night. The Republican National Committee has released its "Obama's Top Ten Fabrications," playing off Letterman's nightly Top Ten list. "Going over the list, it's clear that the RNC needs to get a few more researchers on the Obama case."
posted by ericb at 1:50 PM on April 10, 2007


Metafilter: this is so blatenly dumb it is mind boggling
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:11 PM on April 10, 2007


Oops. Part of my name is on there 10 times. The "Michael" part.
posted by Bugbread at 2:12 PM on April 10, 2007


You know who else put people on lists?

That's right: Mr. Blackwell.
posted by Rangeboy at 2:15 PM on April 10, 2007


Questioning the 'Professor On Watchlist for Free Speech' Story
posted by homunculus at 2:39 PM on April 10, 2007


Santa Claus.
posted by Bugbread at 2:40 PM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]


Government Secrecy Breeds Suspicion
posted by homunculus at 2:43 PM on April 10, 2007


"Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that."

tonight i dream of endlessly slapping this fucker in the face with a dirt rake while twisting his scrotum with needlenose pliers as he sings the constitution to the tune of "These are a few of my favorite things" three octaves above middle c, live on fox news.
posted by quonsar at 2:50 PM on April 10, 2007 [6 favorites]


Jesus, quonsar, might as well just let him go with a warning if you’re going to go easy on the guy.

Well, the old school reason you’d tag someone’s name is to essentially put them beyond the pale. They’d never be able to return to that identity safely. Then of course information became more fluid and that put the kibosh on the usefulness of that. “Osama Bin Laden” isn’t going to make ticket reservations with American Airlines (nor is “Osama Ben Liden” or other variants).
But y’know, the problem is with the lack of update and discretion within the system. If we know what name certain terrorists were traveling under we could wideband that to a number of airports. If they’re equipped for it. If not, you have to fax, call, involve more ass-loads of people. And then you need a security response - more people clued in.
By that time someone that heavy and that savvy is going to either figure it out or the guy(s) his organization is paying on the inside is going to clue him it. That’s if he’s traveling publicly.
You might be able to frustrate the little fish. But then what’s the idea here? I mean ok, you’re on the ‘no fly’ list or the ‘no buy’ list. Yeah. Then what? You go home. You don’t get to fly or buy. Boo hoo. So what’s the point of the list? I mean if the guy really is a terrorist, you’ve just let him go free. You’ve merely given him a slight education in how your operation works. So he forges a new I.D. and rolls on with that. Or he’s a solid citizen and you’ve just pissed him off for no reason. There’s really no third option here. Or rather - any third option denies someone their rights without trial - essentially, guilty by suspicion.

Of course, it’s not like that hasn’t happened before.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:31 PM on April 10, 2007


This makes me want to change my name to George Walker Bush and threaten to blow up the Chrysler building.
posted by EarBucket at 3:52 PM on April 10, 2007 [3 favorites]


Why do I get the feeling Barack Hussein Obama is totally screwed?
posted by wendell at 1:29 PM on April 10 [+]
[!]

Yeah, why even bother to vote for the guy when they're not going to let him on Air Force One, anyway?
posted by jamjam at 3:57 PM on April 10, 2007


Has anyone looked at the actual SDN list? I've seeing lots of dates-of-birth, addresses, national ID numbers...Mr. Kubbany who's mentioned in the linked Wash. Post article is very obviously not on this list. I think the liability is going to fall on companies doing sloppy "partial matches" or selling bad reporting products, not so much on this list itself. Trans Union is setting itself up for a big, big fall here.
posted by gimonca at 4:02 PM on April 10, 2007


Meantime Social Security, the VA, Equifax, Chicago Public Schools, the IRS, etc. etc. etc. have information security akin to a sieve losing laptops full of info with unencrypted names, birth dates, Social Security numbers, fingerprints, etc. If you can’t swipe someone else’s identity in such a target rich environment , you don’t deserve to die for the cause on a plane or, y’know, buy a Chevy for the cause.
posted by Smedleyman at 4:57 PM on April 10, 2007


includes the names of 14 of the long-dead 11 September hijackers,

Why 14? Were the other five somehow considered B-list dead terrorists?
posted by swell at 5:12 PM on April 10, 2007


But the Democrats are going to fix all this, right?

Right?
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:16 PM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]


So, I can't decide whether this is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing, but it's relevant to note the following passage from the list itself:

President Clinton signed Executive Order 12947, effective January
24, 1995, "Prohibiting Transactions with Terrorists Who Threaten to
Disrupt the Middle East Peace Process;"

posted by lostburner at 5:49 PM on April 10, 2007


*crickets*
posted by Smedleyman at 5:54 PM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]


I always thought "Muhammad" was the most common first name on the planet. This seems quite excessi-oh, why do I even bother anymore?
posted by ErWenn at 6:00 PM on April 10, 2007


*scans for no sight of my incredibly English, Anglican, Male name ...*

I approve of this list!
posted by geoff. at 8:36 PM on April 10, 2007


Just for the sake of argument, what would an average law abiding citzen whust happens to have a First Name that shows up on the list 51 FREAKIN TIMES!! do if he ever wanted to rent an apartment or buy a treadmill ever again?
posted by billyfleetwood at 8:55 PM on April 10, 2007


Wow, this sure is a deep shithole we're standing in..... Oh look, IT JUST GOT DEEPER!
posted by Wonderwoman at 9:10 PM on April 10, 2007


OH SHIT. Letters from the alphabet appear both in my name and on the names on thls list. WE ARE ALL FUCKED.

(I actually find it kind of amusing how I have the whitest name on the freaking planet and there is nothing even *close* to my name on here. If I do end up on the no-fly list, it will at least be on my own merits.

Like how tonight at work I suggested that we all try and feature the Communist Manifesto as the "Special of the Day" at Borders.)

posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:48 PM on April 10, 2007


Professor: Bashing Bush Got Me on Watch List; Suggests NSA Might Have Taken Him Off
posted by homunculus at 12:30 AM on April 11, 2007


As long as Barry Gibb is on the list, I can rest easy.
posted by zippy at 2:15 AM on April 11, 2007


billyfleetwood, he should use an assumed name, and cash. Oh, wait, do you have to show ID to rent now? Well, set up your treadmill in the park.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:54 AM on April 11, 2007


Spy chief wants expanded powers: McConnell signals more aggressive posture on surveillance authority
posted by homunculus at 1:46 PM on April 11, 2007


Still More on Murphy
posted by homunculus at 2:11 AM on April 12, 2007


We can all relax now, because:
Besides, the Journal informs us, “federal terrorist watch lists are compiled . . . by career professionals at the FBI . . . who . . . would balk at any effort to list people for political reasons.”
This sounds remarkably like what people in the PRC say when they claim there are no problems at the orphanages. "The authorities would not allow that to happen."
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:33 AM on April 12, 2007


From one of the comments on homunculus's last link:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A Wisconsin man who wrote "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" on a plastic bag containing toiletries said he was detained at an airport security checkpoint for about 25 minutes before authorities concluded the statement was not a threat.
Kip Hawley is the TSA spokesman who calmed the nervous WSJ staff with his Official Pronouncements.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:42 AM on April 12, 2007


Interview with Murphy.
posted by homunculus at 1:49 PM on April 12, 2007


Lots more about watch lists at BoingBoing.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:14 AM on April 16, 2007


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