Anti-Immigrant Sentiment Rears its Ugly Head
April 12, 2007 1:10 AM Subscribe
"F***ing Arab!" - A Sikh veteran is brutally beaten and pepper-sprayed by an insult-hurling police officer, apparently for refusing to move his van (parked in his own driveway), into his garage.
This post was deleted for the following reason: outragefilter. -- jessamyn
enjoy the twilight, america
Twilight? One might argue (considering the remarkable prevelance of anti-immigrant sentiment in American history) that anti-immigrant sentiment is what made America great.
When a wave of Irish Catholic immigrants began arriving in the U.S. in the 1820s, they found a bitter welcome among the Anglo-Saxon Protestant majority. Newspapers described them as "Irish niggers" and "a mongrel mass of ignorance." Many employers assigned Irish laborers to only the most menial and dangerous positions. Irish Catholicism was denounced with charges of superstition and perversion. In some cities, such as Philadelphia, anti-Catholic and anti-Irish hatred erupted into violence.
Equally divisive as religious and ethnic differences, however, was the matter of immigration itself. In just half a century, native-born Americans had come to regard all newcomers as "them."
And it was, of course, all downhill for America after 1820.
posted by three blind mice at 1:51 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Twilight? One might argue (considering the remarkable prevelance of anti-immigrant sentiment in American history) that anti-immigrant sentiment is what made America great.
When a wave of Irish Catholic immigrants began arriving in the U.S. in the 1820s, they found a bitter welcome among the Anglo-Saxon Protestant majority. Newspapers described them as "Irish niggers" and "a mongrel mass of ignorance." Many employers assigned Irish laborers to only the most menial and dangerous positions. Irish Catholicism was denounced with charges of superstition and perversion. In some cities, such as Philadelphia, anti-Catholic and anti-Irish hatred erupted into violence.
Equally divisive as religious and ethnic differences, however, was the matter of immigration itself. In just half a century, native-born Americans had come to regard all newcomers as "them."
And it was, of course, all downhill for America after 1820.
posted by three blind mice at 1:51 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
i'm afraid my point eludes you entirely. american culture is way friendlier to outsiders than many others, and its capacity to do so has generally improved through its history. i'm just thinking that in 2050 your average mr. singh will hardly consider trying to get here.
the cop will get his wish, but i don't think he'll like it.
posted by Firas at 2:05 AM on April 12, 2007
the cop will get his wish, but i don't think he'll like it.
posted by Firas at 2:05 AM on April 12, 2007
This confirms that violent dickhead cops who have no problem screaming racist slurs exist. We already knew that.
It's hardly indicative of the end of America the Dream™, but just shows that that Dream ain't all it's cracked up to be. As tbm mentions, this kind of stuff has been going on forever.
Hopefully the prick won't get away with it.
posted by moonbiter at 2:08 AM on April 12, 2007
It's hardly indicative of the end of America the Dream™, but just shows that that Dream ain't all it's cracked up to be. As tbm mentions, this kind of stuff has been going on forever.
Hopefully the prick won't get away with it.
posted by moonbiter at 2:08 AM on April 12, 2007
I hate Illinois nazis.
posted by bardic at 2:16 AM on April 12, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by bardic at 2:16 AM on April 12, 2007 [4 favorites]
So basically, three blind mice, you're saying that because people really sucked 200 years ago, it's okay that they suck now?
"America: Meeting the expectations of the 1820s...since 2007!"
posted by Malor at 3:14 AM on April 12, 2007 [4 favorites]
"America: Meeting the expectations of the 1820s...since 2007!"
posted by Malor at 3:14 AM on April 12, 2007 [4 favorites]
The story as related is so outrageous as to strain credibility. Clearly if that's how it went down, then there are hardly any words to describe the injustice perpetrated. But there will, of course, be that other side of the story that inevitably crops up. Different accounts of the facts will be presented, and barring (and usually even notwithstanding) suprise video of the entire encounter, different people will trust the version of the story coming from whoever they most identify with. There will be both reasonable and inflammitory rhetoric, and whatever happens ultimately to both the (victim / perp) and the (racist / officer) will depend more on politics than on any of us who weren't there ever really knowing what happened.
posted by Bokononist at 3:27 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Bokononist at 3:27 AM on April 12, 2007
you're saying that because people really sucked 200 years ago, it's okay that they suck now?
such unrealistic expectations of mankind, such ignorance of history...
posted by quonsar at 4:11 AM on April 12, 2007
such unrealistic expectations of mankind, such ignorance of history...
posted by quonsar at 4:11 AM on April 12, 2007
Ah, Joliet, Illinois. The city that brought us Robert Novak.
Bokonomist, the guy was hospitalized for five days with severe head injuries. I don't think this is going to degenerate into a "he said, she said" situation; there should be enought physical evidence to convict his attacker.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:12 AM on April 12, 2007
Bokonomist, the guy was hospitalized for five days with severe head injuries. I don't think this is going to degenerate into a "he said, she said" situation; there should be enought physical evidence to convict his attacker.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:12 AM on April 12, 2007
What's most screwed up is that if the man would have fought back, he would probably face prison time. Pigs are usually cowards, hence the need for the pig badge. Of course, pigs can always go around pigging up on women.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 4:17 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 4:17 AM on April 12, 2007
three blind mice writes "One might argue [...] that anti-immigrant sentiment is what made America great."
Yep - that's when we know that a new immigrant population has been accepted. The first generation is ostracized, the second generation is grudgingly accepted, the third generation joins in to ask "who let all the goddamn [insert new immigrant nationality here] into this country?"
Without a common, newly arrived enemy, the previous wave of immigrants would remain the cultural whipping boy indefinitely.
posted by caution live frogs at 4:27 AM on April 12, 2007
Yep - that's when we know that a new immigrant population has been accepted. The first generation is ostracized, the second generation is grudgingly accepted, the third generation joins in to ask "who let all the goddamn [insert new immigrant nationality here] into this country?"
Without a common, newly arrived enemy, the previous wave of immigrants would remain the cultural whipping boy indefinitely.
posted by caution live frogs at 4:27 AM on April 12, 2007
another less dramatic data point - a sikh family runs a gas station in town here and put up a sign explaining that they were sikhs from india and loved america
i asked the owner about it and he said that right after 9/11 people were giving them a hard time about being "arabs"
depressing ...
posted by pyramid termite at 4:38 AM on April 12, 2007
i asked the owner about it and he said that right after 9/11 people were giving them a hard time about being "arabs"
depressing ...
posted by pyramid termite at 4:38 AM on April 12, 2007
I hate Illinois Nazis, too.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:50 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:50 AM on April 12, 2007
anti-immigrant sentiment is what made America great. Yes one may argue that, but what about the inexpensive labour kept socially isolated so they think about working ?
One doesn't want ideas such as rights, healthcare and other nonsense to spread from a population to another, so it's a lot better to just paint the fucking wops as fucking wops, mafia and whatnot...so when they outrage about Sopranos it's even easier to point out they are humorless pricks.
posted by elpapacito at 4:50 AM on April 12, 2007
One doesn't want ideas such as rights, healthcare and other nonsense to spread from a population to another, so it's a lot better to just paint the fucking wops as fucking wops, mafia and whatnot...so when they outrage about Sopranos it's even easier to point out they are humorless pricks.
posted by elpapacito at 4:50 AM on April 12, 2007
depressing ...
What's more depressing is IMUS is still being blasted by the media, yet things like this get ignored. This is actual news. This is actually real racism, yet so many people seem to prefer to ignore it in favor of posturing, especially when pigs are involved. I wouldn't mind seeing this story covered 24/7.
It was once customary to never attack a man in front of his children in America. Even mobsters lived by that code. Those days are long gone. An interesting note, one cause of so much psychological damage in Palestine is children having to see their fathers beaten by authority figures.
Such experiences leave their mark on children's perceptions of themselves and the world around them. "If my father could not protect himself," a child wonders, "how on earth is he going to protect me?" The inevitable reaction is a mixture of fear, frustration, helplessness, anger, and -- perhaps most tragically -- rejection of the father. Children sometimes find themselves identifying with Israeli soldiers as symbols of power. At the very least, they are driven out of their homes to look for heroes to replace their fathers, who failed the test.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 4:50 AM on April 12, 2007
What's more depressing is IMUS is still being blasted by the media, yet things like this get ignored. This is actual news. This is actually real racism, yet so many people seem to prefer to ignore it in favor of posturing, especially when pigs are involved. I wouldn't mind seeing this story covered 24/7.
It was once customary to never attack a man in front of his children in America. Even mobsters lived by that code. Those days are long gone. An interesting note, one cause of so much psychological damage in Palestine is children having to see their fathers beaten by authority figures.
Such experiences leave their mark on children's perceptions of themselves and the world around them. "If my father could not protect himself," a child wonders, "how on earth is he going to protect me?" The inevitable reaction is a mixture of fear, frustration, helplessness, anger, and -- perhaps most tragically -- rejection of the father. Children sometimes find themselves identifying with Israeli soldiers as symbols of power. At the very least, they are driven out of their homes to look for heroes to replace their fathers, who failed the test.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 4:50 AM on April 12, 2007
If this cop does time for this -- and he certainly should -- he'll find himself having a particularly rough time in the slammer, as law-enforcement types are not exactly popular people in that milieu. (Unless the "corrections" staff are especially sympathetic and protective toward him, that is. In which case, if they're inattentive, he could wind up murdered.)
posted by pax digita at 4:52 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by pax digita at 4:52 AM on April 12, 2007
reality rips off Spike Lee movies. same exact line, Jesus Christ
And it was, of course, all downhill for America after 1820.
not downhill, but only 40 years after 1820 you happily slaughtered each other for four years -- 600,000 dead, about 400,000 wounded. the good ole days of 1820? unfortunate comparison, really. sometimes you play with history, you get burned.
posted by matteo at 5:51 AM on April 12, 2007
And it was, of course, all downhill for America after 1820.
not downhill, but only 40 years after 1820 you happily slaughtered each other for four years -- 600,000 dead, about 400,000 wounded. the good ole days of 1820? unfortunate comparison, really. sometimes you play with history, you get burned.
posted by matteo at 5:51 AM on April 12, 2007
This is sadly believable, and has nothing to do with the racial angle. The cop simply couldn't handle someone failing to respect his authoritah, and he may have gone extra ballistic because the dude looked ay-rab but I guarantee he would have gone off on a white person who politely told him the van was legally parked and wasn't going to be moved, tyvm.
Something very similar, though not as violent, happened to me years ago. I used to have an old pickup truck which I parked on the street. My neighbor had a trailer he parked on the other side of the street. One day the school bus driver decided it was too hard to navigate between them. Do I need to mention the ex-cop school bus driver?
Since my neighbor wasn't home he banged on my door, and got my wife. He demanded she move the truck. She couldn't; she can't drive stick and didn't have the keys. He then harangued and threatened her for half an hour and left her in tears. Had she been male I suspect he might have assaulted her; as it was he came close.
The school bus stop was actually my house; it was that way when we bought the house and despite not having kids of my own I didn't mind. When I found out about the you-will-move-that-truck-now incident I called the school board and demanded that take some kind of action. When they hem-hawed I said OK, the school bus stop goes elsewhere, not next year but tomorrow. I've been a good sport about the kids milling in front of my house every morning for three years and if this is the way you thank me, from now on every time one of them steps off the sidewalk onto my front yard I'll be taking photographs and filing cease-and-desists. It is after all a liability issue for my homeowner's insurance.
The next day the school bus stop was moved to the front of the subdivision so the kids have to walk two blocks and the bus no longer passes by my house. But as far as I know the ex-cop asshole is still driving the bus.
posted by localroger at 5:57 AM on April 12, 2007
Something very similar, though not as violent, happened to me years ago. I used to have an old pickup truck which I parked on the street. My neighbor had a trailer he parked on the other side of the street. One day the school bus driver decided it was too hard to navigate between them. Do I need to mention the ex-cop school bus driver?
Since my neighbor wasn't home he banged on my door, and got my wife. He demanded she move the truck. She couldn't; she can't drive stick and didn't have the keys. He then harangued and threatened her for half an hour and left her in tears. Had she been male I suspect he might have assaulted her; as it was he came close.
The school bus stop was actually my house; it was that way when we bought the house and despite not having kids of my own I didn't mind. When I found out about the you-will-move-that-truck-now incident I called the school board and demanded that take some kind of action. When they hem-hawed I said OK, the school bus stop goes elsewhere, not next year but tomorrow. I've been a good sport about the kids milling in front of my house every morning for three years and if this is the way you thank me, from now on every time one of them steps off the sidewalk onto my front yard I'll be taking photographs and filing cease-and-desists. It is after all a liability issue for my homeowner's insurance.
The next day the school bus stop was moved to the front of the subdivision so the kids have to walk two blocks and the bus no longer passes by my house. But as far as I know the ex-cop asshole is still driving the bus.
posted by localroger at 5:57 AM on April 12, 2007
A few years ago I considered joining the NYPD, but for a variety of reasons, I didn't. Being a police officer is an important and often noble calling, and crap like this disgraces the profession. I don't know whether it's poor recruiting, poor training or what that causes nimrods like this to end up with a badge and a gun, but I wish they'd figure it out.
posted by jonmc at 6:02 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by jonmc at 6:02 AM on April 12, 2007
maybe it sounds unbelieveable ... but not in joliet. that's one tough town they have there.
posted by lester at 6:10 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by lester at 6:10 AM on April 12, 2007
The story as related is so outrageous as to strain credibility.
The video where the cop tells the guy to get up, the guy says, "OK, I'm getting up.", starts to get up, and then the cop shoots him strains credibility.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:10 AM on April 12, 2007
The video where the cop tells the guy to get up, the guy says, "OK, I'm getting up.", starts to get up, and then the cop shoots him strains credibility.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:10 AM on April 12, 2007
This is sadly believable, and has nothing to do with the racial angle.
Nothing? Nothing? How can you be so sure of that?
...he may have gone extra ballistic because the dude looked ay-rab...
Hmmm... maybe it's that extra that's all-important here, eh?
but I guarantee he would have gone off on a white person who politely told him the van was legally parked
Is that, um, an iron-clad guarantee? How can you can be that certain of how this situation would've played out had the participants been of a different ethnic persuasion? To what do you owe this rock-solid certainty? And would that "gone off on" that you mention, would that have gone beyond a "haranguing" like you've described, into, say, pepper-spraying, physical abuse and arrest?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:19 AM on April 12, 2007
Nothing? Nothing? How can you be so sure of that?
...he may have gone extra ballistic because the dude looked ay-rab...
Hmmm... maybe it's that extra that's all-important here, eh?
but I guarantee he would have gone off on a white person who politely told him the van was legally parked
Is that, um, an iron-clad guarantee? How can you can be that certain of how this situation would've played out had the participants been of a different ethnic persuasion? To what do you owe this rock-solid certainty? And would that "gone off on" that you mention, would that have gone beyond a "haranguing" like you've described, into, say, pepper-spraying, physical abuse and arrest?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:19 AM on April 12, 2007
I think it's a particular personality type that is drawn towards the profession myself, jonmc. The school yard bully grows up to be a cop. Seen it happen many times. Not that I'm painting all cops with that brush as many others are decent and good people, but it serves well as a general rule for the kind of cops in the story.
posted by nofundy at 6:20 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by nofundy at 6:20 AM on April 12, 2007
It's the nimrods doing the hiring, jonmc.
You're probably right.
A better phrase then would have been "enjoy the twilight, Whitey." Because America's not going anywhere, just changing color, and by 2050 the majority race in the U.S. is not going to be white.
Not exactly. What will happen is that the definition of 'white' will change. In the early 20th Century Italian and Irish Catholic immigrants weren't considered 'white,' but now they are and a similar thing is happening currently with a lot of the Latino population. In this book Edward Conlon makes the observation that so many Latinos are joining the NYPD (the last Academy graduating class was something like 50% immigrant) that all the old 'Officer O'Malley' jokes are going to change to 'Officer Rodriguez.'
It's kind of a sad state of affairs, but that's the lay of the land, so to speak.
I'm doing my best to be nice to everyone just so I'm sure I can still sit down at a diner when I'm in my 70's, and I'd recommend you all do the same.
Being 'nice' out of fear? How about being decent simply because it's the right thing to do?
posted by jonmc at 6:20 AM on April 12, 2007
You're probably right.
A better phrase then would have been "enjoy the twilight, Whitey." Because America's not going anywhere, just changing color, and by 2050 the majority race in the U.S. is not going to be white.
Not exactly. What will happen is that the definition of 'white' will change. In the early 20th Century Italian and Irish Catholic immigrants weren't considered 'white,' but now they are and a similar thing is happening currently with a lot of the Latino population. In this book Edward Conlon makes the observation that so many Latinos are joining the NYPD (the last Academy graduating class was something like 50% immigrant) that all the old 'Officer O'Malley' jokes are going to change to 'Officer Rodriguez.'
It's kind of a sad state of affairs, but that's the lay of the land, so to speak.
I'm doing my best to be nice to everyone just so I'm sure I can still sit down at a diner when I'm in my 70's, and I'd recommend you all do the same.
Being 'nice' out of fear? How about being decent simply because it's the right thing to do?
posted by jonmc at 6:20 AM on April 12, 2007
What's more depressing is IMUS is still being blasted by the media, yet things like this get ignored. This is actual news. This is actually real racism,
... and what radio station do you think the cop was listening to on his way to work in the morning?
posted by deanc at 6:22 AM on April 12, 2007
... and what radio station do you think the cop was listening to on his way to work in the morning?
posted by deanc at 6:22 AM on April 12, 2007
Are there any other sources for this story aside from the linked site? That and this blog post's mention of the arrest at the bottom of a local crime blotter summary are all I can find. It must be early in the news cycle for this one, but it'll be interesting to see if it gets traction enough to give us more details.
posted by mediareport at 6:22 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by mediareport at 6:22 AM on April 12, 2007
Gnostic Novelist: What's most screwed up is that if the man would have fought back, he would probably face prison time.
And if he'd defended himself successfully, he may well have been shot. When backup arrives, they're not going to pause and ask why the cop is lying unconcious with a gash under his eye; they're going to go into full-out attack mode. And, arguably, they should -- but he's still in deep trouble, even if he acted completely in self-defense.
That's the thing -- if a cop gets physical with you, even if he's in the wrong, you *cannot* defend yourself. He can beat you to within an inch of your life, or indeed even kill you, and there's not much you can do about it. And why most states have laws against videotaping cops is beyond me. (I mean, I *think* I know, but I don't want to be that paranoid...)
The best solution, given the imbalance of power, is personal cameras on every cop, rolling for their entire shift. That will never happen, because cops enjoy abusing their power too much.
Then again, I think politicians ought to be under 24 hour public video surveillance -- 1 part c-span, 2 parts Big Brother, 3 parts boredom = YouTube awesomeness. Oh yes, we really DO need to know if you're doing "illegal" things in the bedroom...
posted by LordSludge at 6:24 AM on April 12, 2007
And if he'd defended himself successfully, he may well have been shot. When backup arrives, they're not going to pause and ask why the cop is lying unconcious with a gash under his eye; they're going to go into full-out attack mode. And, arguably, they should -- but he's still in deep trouble, even if he acted completely in self-defense.
That's the thing -- if a cop gets physical with you, even if he's in the wrong, you *cannot* defend yourself. He can beat you to within an inch of your life, or indeed even kill you, and there's not much you can do about it. And why most states have laws against videotaping cops is beyond me. (I mean, I *think* I know, but I don't want to be that paranoid...)
The best solution, given the imbalance of power, is personal cameras on every cop, rolling for their entire shift. That will never happen, because cops enjoy abusing their power too much.
Then again, I think politicians ought to be under 24 hour public video surveillance -- 1 part c-span, 2 parts Big Brother, 3 parts boredom = YouTube awesomeness. Oh yes, we really DO need to know if you're doing "illegal" things in the bedroom...
posted by LordSludge at 6:24 AM on April 12, 2007
on preview: I can see that nofundy, especially in a smaller department like in a city like Joliet, and of course the things that policemen see in the course of their jobs would be a strain on anybody. But it's interesting that those who would be good police offers often aren't drawn to the job. If we want better officers we should find out why that is and correct it.
(FWIW, I was going to file my application, but then I got my kidney stones and by the time that was all sorted out, I was over the age limit)
posted by jonmc at 6:24 AM on April 12, 2007
(FWIW, I was going to file my application, but then I got my kidney stones and by the time that was all sorted out, I was over the age limit)
posted by jonmc at 6:24 AM on April 12, 2007
The only thing I could find about this other than in the linked article was here, which says Mr. Nag was charged with aggravated battery (which doesn't seem to be mentioned at the SALDEF website). I would definitely like to get more details on this before passing some of the sweeping judgements made above...
On Preview: too slow, mediareport linked it.
posted by the other side at 6:34 AM on April 12, 2007
On Preview: too slow, mediareport linked it.
posted by the other side at 6:34 AM on April 12, 2007
I don't know whether it's poor recruiting, poor training or what that causes nimrods like this to end up with a badge and a gun, but I wish they'd figure it out.
People elect to be become police officers for a variety of reasons. One subset of those people are "cowboys"-- us-against-them, wanna-clean-the-streets-like-Travis Bickle-but-with-a-badge types. They see themselves as ultimate authority over regular citizens and they're glad because that was what they aspired to be when they signed up. I think the overtly racist cops and thug cops are from that group.
Another group of cops that are a problem are ones who had better (or "I want a job with good benefits" neutral) intentions, but are burned out and any time you question them, they feel that you're making their job harder. And they have (or feel they have) the authority to blow up at you for it. Imagine every customer or client you've ever had who obstructed you when you just wanted to get through the day. Now imagine that violence was an acceptable and sometimes necessary part of your job. What would you do to those people who pressed you or wouldn't listen? I would be this type of cop after a week, I think.
(I'm not suggesting that all cops are like this.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:34 AM on April 12, 2007
People elect to be become police officers for a variety of reasons. One subset of those people are "cowboys"-- us-against-them, wanna-clean-the-streets-like-Travis Bickle-but-with-a-badge types. They see themselves as ultimate authority over regular citizens and they're glad because that was what they aspired to be when they signed up. I think the overtly racist cops and thug cops are from that group.
Another group of cops that are a problem are ones who had better (or "I want a job with good benefits" neutral) intentions, but are burned out and any time you question them, they feel that you're making their job harder. And they have (or feel they have) the authority to blow up at you for it. Imagine every customer or client you've ever had who obstructed you when you just wanted to get through the day. Now imagine that violence was an acceptable and sometimes necessary part of your job. What would you do to those people who pressed you or wouldn't listen? I would be this type of cop after a week, I think.
(I'm not suggesting that all cops are like this.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:34 AM on April 12, 2007
The best solution, given the imbalance of power, is personal cameras on every cop, rolling for their entire shift. That will never happen, because cops enjoy abusing their power too much.
A lot of patrol cars have dash-mounted cameras in them and on occasions where officers have been assaulted or shot during traffic stops the footage has helped apprehend the perpetrators, so it would have an upside for the cops as well.
posted by jonmc at 6:37 AM on April 12, 2007
A lot of patrol cars have dash-mounted cameras in them and on occasions where officers have been assaulted or shot during traffic stops the footage has helped apprehend the perpetrators, so it would have an upside for the cops as well.
posted by jonmc at 6:37 AM on April 12, 2007
The story as related is so outrageous as to strain credibility. -- Bokononist
Right, we all know how uncommon it is for police to violently beat people and hurtle racial profanities.
Anyway, it's not really fair to judge all of the America by a few bad apples, although I think it's a real problem that these types of people are in positions of authority.
What's more depressing is IMUS is still being blasted by the media, yet things like this get ignored. This is actual news. This is actually real racism, -- Gnostic Novelist
Sez the guy who wants to bring back segregation. Whatever, I think I'll just ignore your opinions about what is and is not racism, thanks.
posted by delmoi at 6:41 AM on April 12, 2007
Right, we all know how uncommon it is for police to violently beat people and hurtle racial profanities.
Anyway, it's not really fair to judge all of the America by a few bad apples, although I think it's a real problem that these types of people are in positions of authority.
What's more depressing is IMUS is still being blasted by the media, yet things like this get ignored. This is actual news. This is actually real racism, -- Gnostic Novelist
Sez the guy who wants to bring back segregation. Whatever, I think I'll just ignore your opinions about what is and is not racism, thanks.
posted by delmoi at 6:41 AM on April 12, 2007
The school yard bully grows up to be a cop.
Or, perhaps just as likely, a criminal. I think they might be sort of cut from the same cloth, cops and crooks.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:41 AM on April 12, 2007
Or, perhaps just as likely, a criminal. I think they might be sort of cut from the same cloth, cops and crooks.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:41 AM on April 12, 2007
Mayor Curley: I wouldn't want a Travis Bickle wearing a badge, but I don't want Leo Buscaglia either, if you catch my meaning.
Another group of cops that are a problem are ones who had better (or "I want a job with good benefits" neutral) intentions, but are burned out and any time you question them, they feel that you're making their job harder. And they have (or feel they have) the authority to blow up at you for it. Imagine every customer or client you've ever had who obstructed you when you just wanted to get through the day. Now imagine that violence was an acceptable and sometimes necessary part of your job. What would you do to those people who pressed you or wouldn't listen? I would be this type of cop after a week, I think.
I think this is key. Thethings police see all day: theives, gangsters, wifebeaters, child molesters, even just people behaving like idiots, would have to get to even the most patient person after awhile. And statistics show that there is a higher rate of alcoholism, domestic violence and suicide among policemen (and firefighters and paramedics as well. an old friend of mine who was an EMT and is now a cop in Honululu told me stories that scared me for the state of humanity, things like a mother deliberately scalding her toddler with boiling water). It's very much in our interest as a society to address these things since if we do maybe we can decrease the number of incidents like this.
posted by jonmc at 6:42 AM on April 12, 2007
Another group of cops that are a problem are ones who had better (or "I want a job with good benefits" neutral) intentions, but are burned out and any time you question them, they feel that you're making their job harder. And they have (or feel they have) the authority to blow up at you for it. Imagine every customer or client you've ever had who obstructed you when you just wanted to get through the day. Now imagine that violence was an acceptable and sometimes necessary part of your job. What would you do to those people who pressed you or wouldn't listen? I would be this type of cop after a week, I think.
I think this is key. Thethings police see all day: theives, gangsters, wifebeaters, child molesters, even just people behaving like idiots, would have to get to even the most patient person after awhile. And statistics show that there is a higher rate of alcoholism, domestic violence and suicide among policemen (and firefighters and paramedics as well. an old friend of mine who was an EMT and is now a cop in Honululu told me stories that scared me for the state of humanity, things like a mother deliberately scalding her toddler with boiling water). It's very much in our interest as a society to address these things since if we do maybe we can decrease the number of incidents like this.
posted by jonmc at 6:42 AM on April 12, 2007
Mayor Curley writes: I would be this type of cop after a week, I think.
Mayor Curley, I don't doubt that.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:46 AM on April 12, 2007
Mayor Curley, I don't doubt that.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:46 AM on April 12, 2007
I'd say he should get 3 to 5 years for assault, and be shot for general ignorance.
posted by delmoi at 6:48 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by delmoi at 6:48 AM on April 12, 2007
and be shot for general ignorance
I dunno, there, delmoi... if general ignorance was cause for shooting, you'd be full of holes.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:50 AM on April 12, 2007
I dunno, there, delmoi... if general ignorance was cause for shooting, you'd be full of holes.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:50 AM on April 12, 2007
but I don't want Leo Buscaglia either
what about Deepak Chopra? I'd like him as a neighborhood cop. Dr Phil, too.
posted by matteo at 6:51 AM on April 12, 2007
what about Deepak Chopra? I'd like him as a neighborhood cop. Dr Phil, too.
posted by matteo at 6:51 AM on April 12, 2007
Ha! (matteo, have you read the book I linked in my earlier comment? It's really well written, by a Harvard educated third-generation law-enforcement officer in the Bronx. you'd find it interesting)
posted by jonmc at 6:53 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by jonmc at 6:53 AM on April 12, 2007
Mayor Curley:
Another group of cops that are a problem are ones who had better
I think idealism needs to be done away with in the academy. I have family members that are pigs (female ones nonetheless) and they entered the force simply because it's a decent job, they couldn't find employment anywhere else, and on occasion police do due decent work. The psychological exams they had to endure were somewhat thorough, so I don't know how so many closet cases slip through. Part of it, can be chalked up to the strain of the job, but pretty much everyone has a stressful job, even pornstars.
I see them as grunts. Intelligent cops tend to want to go to the FBI/CIA and such, but you can't just walk in and apply. I have heard the idea that increasing pay would change things, but I doubt it.
One solution I believe in: Raise the minimum age. Around here we have cops that are 21-22. That is far too young, especially with this generation. I say 27-30 would be ideal with a mandatory retirement age after 10-20 years for beat cops, and if the pay is high enough, I think the salary increase solution could work, and would help with high turnover. Then again, I can't claim to have the solution to a problem that has plagued humanity since...forever.
Delmoi
Sez the guy who wants to bring back segregation. Whatever, I think I'll just ignore your opinions about what is and is not racism, thanks.
I don't want to bring back segregation. I just think people have a right to choose who they want to associate with. You know, freedom? But perhaps you just prefer sophistry. You are not really my concern.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 6:54 AM on April 12, 2007
Another group of cops that are a problem are ones who had better
I think idealism needs to be done away with in the academy. I have family members that are pigs (female ones nonetheless) and they entered the force simply because it's a decent job, they couldn't find employment anywhere else, and on occasion police do due decent work. The psychological exams they had to endure were somewhat thorough, so I don't know how so many closet cases slip through. Part of it, can be chalked up to the strain of the job, but pretty much everyone has a stressful job, even pornstars.
I see them as grunts. Intelligent cops tend to want to go to the FBI/CIA and such, but you can't just walk in and apply. I have heard the idea that increasing pay would change things, but I doubt it.
One solution I believe in: Raise the minimum age. Around here we have cops that are 21-22. That is far too young, especially with this generation. I say 27-30 would be ideal with a mandatory retirement age after 10-20 years for beat cops, and if the pay is high enough, I think the salary increase solution could work, and would help with high turnover. Then again, I can't claim to have the solution to a problem that has plagued humanity since...forever.
Delmoi
Sez the guy who wants to bring back segregation. Whatever, I think I'll just ignore your opinions about what is and is not racism, thanks.
I don't want to bring back segregation. I just think people have a right to choose who they want to associate with. You know, freedom? But perhaps you just prefer sophistry. You are not really my concern.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 6:54 AM on April 12, 2007
EDIT: and on occasion police do do decent work
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 6:55 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 6:55 AM on April 12, 2007
And I managed to screw up the edit. Wow. I'm going to bed.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 6:56 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 6:56 AM on April 12, 2007
the third generation joins in to ask "who let all the goddamn [insert new immigrant nationality here] into this country?"
Someone I work with rants on and on about the immigration problem and how it's destroying America.
His parents escaped to here from Communist Poland.
posted by eustacescrubb at 6:56 AM on April 12, 2007
Someone I work with rants on and on about the immigration problem and how it's destroying America.
His parents escaped to here from Communist Poland.
posted by eustacescrubb at 6:56 AM on April 12, 2007
"I'm a Sikh you ignorant fucks!" was by far the best line in Inside Man.
posted by Vindaloo at 7:00 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Vindaloo at 7:00 AM on April 12, 2007
Gnostic Novelist: people might be a little more inclined to listen to you if stopped saying 'pigs.' I'm just saying.
posted by jonmc at 7:04 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 7:04 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Matteo: Dr Phil, too.
He comes with his own prison franchise, the Dr. Phil House™
posted by fleetmouse at 7:11 AM on April 12, 2007
He comes with his own prison franchise, the Dr. Phil House™
posted by fleetmouse at 7:11 AM on April 12, 2007
On the other hand, refering to cops as "pigs" does show some knowledge of the field.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 7:16 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by CautionToTheWind at 7:16 AM on April 12, 2007
His parents escaped to here from Communist Poland.
Ah, well, the Poles, they're the worst... ;-)
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:22 AM on April 12, 2007
Ah, well, the Poles, they're the worst... ;-)
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:22 AM on April 12, 2007
or maybe you're just not all that funny, shecky.
posted by jonmc at 7:26 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 7:26 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
I don't know whether it's poor recruiting, poor training or what that causes nimrods like this to end up with a badge and a gun, but I wish they'd figure it out.
posted by jonmc at 6:02 AM on April 12
This is who they want with a badge and a gun, jon. You honestly think the guy who hired him can tell the difference between a Sikh and an Arab? You honestly think the guy who hired him would give a shit if the officer in question just blew Nag's head off? Of course not.
Civilians: cops do not like you. You are not even worthy of their attention unless they can get something from you. At best, they might begrudgingly show up after you've been attacked or robbed to write up a report for three seconds, blame you for being a victim, then ask if you have any "dope" on you and do you mind if they search your house for the "dope" they assume all civilians are carrying at all times.
Cops do not consider non-cops to be worthy of human rights or civil rights. They will protect their fellow officers at the expense of innocents, at the expense of justice, and god help you if you stand in their way. Heh, whoops, another guy started strugglingand just up and died while we were "restraining" him. Oops! We lost the videotape! Oops!
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:28 AM on April 12, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 6:02 AM on April 12
This is who they want with a badge and a gun, jon. You honestly think the guy who hired him can tell the difference between a Sikh and an Arab? You honestly think the guy who hired him would give a shit if the officer in question just blew Nag's head off? Of course not.
Civilians: cops do not like you. You are not even worthy of their attention unless they can get something from you. At best, they might begrudgingly show up after you've been attacked or robbed to write up a report for three seconds, blame you for being a victim, then ask if you have any "dope" on you and do you mind if they search your house for the "dope" they assume all civilians are carrying at all times.
Cops do not consider non-cops to be worthy of human rights or civil rights. They will protect their fellow officers at the expense of innocents, at the expense of justice, and god help you if you stand in their way. Heh, whoops, another guy started strugglingand just up and died while we were "restraining" him. Oops! We lost the videotape! Oops!
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:28 AM on April 12, 2007 [4 favorites]
Gnostic Novelist: people might be a little more inclined to listen to you if stopped saying 'pigs.' I'm just saying.
I don't doubt that for a second.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 7:30 AM on April 12, 2007
I don't doubt that for a second.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 7:30 AM on April 12, 2007
From the original article: SALDEF has garnered the strong support of the Illinois Sikh American community and is currently working with The Chawla Group Ltd to represent Mr. Nag in a criminal case brought on by the City of Joliet.
From here: • Kuldip Nag , 49, of 3574 Buck Ave. was arrested by Joliet police and booked into the county jail Tuesday on a charge of aggravated battery.
"His face kept hitting my baton, your honor. Damn near cracked it in half."
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 7:32 AM on April 12, 2007
From here: • Kuldip Nag , 49, of 3574 Buck Ave. was arrested by Joliet police and booked into the county jail Tuesday on a charge of aggravated battery.
"His face kept hitting my baton, your honor. Damn near cracked it in half."
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 7:32 AM on April 12, 2007
Cops do not consider non-cops to be worthy of human rights or civil rights. They will protect their fellow officers at the expense of innocents, at the expense of justice, and god help you if you stand in their way. Heh, whoops, another guy started strugglingand just up and died while we were "restraining" him. Oops! We lost the videotape! Oops!
It's true--and it didn't used to be, i don't think. When i was little we were always told to go to a cop if we were in trouble or lost--every parent i know nowadays tells their kids now to stay away from cops always.
posted by amberglow at 7:37 AM on April 12, 2007
It's true--and it didn't used to be, i don't think. When i was little we were always told to go to a cop if we were in trouble or lost--every parent i know nowadays tells their kids now to stay away from cops always.
posted by amberglow at 7:37 AM on April 12, 2007
We'll probably never hear any follow up on this, but it would be nice to hear that the guy had lost his job, lost all benefits and gone to jail, because he deserves it. Especially because he's a cop. Sadly I suspect otherwise... because he's a cop. We'll probably never know.
posted by Artw at 7:42 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Artw at 7:42 AM on April 12, 2007
I feel like we're missing quite a large piece of the story.
Of course the article linked is going to be biased. As is anything that comes out of the police dept.
I'm not sure I can believe that the cop goes from talking with the guy to hitting him with pepper spray because he said he couldn't move his van.
There was probably an argument in which Nag probably got up in the cop's face about how it was his private property and the cop probably started to feel threatened and pulled out the mace.
The cop probably got a nice shot of adrenaline at that point given the most "action" he sees in a typical day is writing parking tickets and overreacted.
posted by ruthsarian at 7:42 AM on April 12, 2007
Of course the article linked is going to be biased. As is anything that comes out of the police dept.
I'm not sure I can believe that the cop goes from talking with the guy to hitting him with pepper spray because he said he couldn't move his van.
There was probably an argument in which Nag probably got up in the cop's face about how it was his private property and the cop probably started to feel threatened and pulled out the mace.
The cop probably got a nice shot of adrenaline at that point given the most "action" he sees in a typical day is writing parking tickets and overreacted.
posted by ruthsarian at 7:42 AM on April 12, 2007
I want to see more than one real source on this story, too. Although I'm perfectly prepared to believe it, I'll also note that the escalation seems unlikely as reported. Also, veterans are not automatically excluded from suspicion of acting inappropriately.
Yes, I'm just being contrarian to the overall those-damn-pigs tone in the thread. But I think it's a reasonable contrarian position given what we (don't) know.
I would be this type of cop after a week, I think.
The Stanford Prison Experiment pretty much backs that up.
posted by dhartung at 7:42 AM on April 12, 2007
Yes, I'm just being contrarian to the overall those-damn-pigs tone in the thread. But I think it's a reasonable contrarian position given what we (don't) know.
I would be this type of cop after a week, I think.
The Stanford Prison Experiment pretty much backs that up.
posted by dhartung at 7:42 AM on April 12, 2007
american culture is way friendlier to outsiders than many others, and its capacity to do so has generally improved through its history.
WTF? Dr Phil is some kind of power loving authoritarian asshole who revels in his fake credentials. A cop???
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on April 12, 2007
WTF? Dr Phil is some kind of power loving authoritarian asshole who revels in his fake credentials. A cop???
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on April 12, 2007
People elect to be become police officers for a variety of reasons. One subset of those people are "cowboys"-- us-against-them, wanna-clean-the-streets-like-Travis Bickle-but-with-a-badge types. They see themselves as ultimate authority over regular citizens and they're glad because that was what they aspired to be when they signed up.
Sorry, but every "officer" I've had the misfortune of dealing with in the big ol' Midwest has fit this description to a T. Their fucked up attitudes get exponentially emboldened as you spiral out into smaller communities such as Joliet, which is a short skip away from one of my family members farm properties. You wouldn't ever see this in the IA/IL Quad City metro, Des Moines or Kansas City, but you start spiraling out and it gets more and more backwater with every mile...
There was probably an argument in which Nag probably got up in the cop's face about how it was his private property and the cop probably started to feel threatened and pulled out the mace.
What if the officer felt threatened by a raised voice? He has no legal authority over this mans vehicle parked on his private property and is wasting this mans time and taxpayer resources by questioning him in the first place. As far as I am concerned he should have been able to tell that pig to fuck off and die without ever having to worry about incurring physical and verbal abuse at the hands of such an ignorant meathead. I feel sorry for anyone who would accept anything less...
posted by prostyle at 7:55 AM on April 12, 2007
Sorry, but every "officer" I've had the misfortune of dealing with in the big ol' Midwest has fit this description to a T. Their fucked up attitudes get exponentially emboldened as you spiral out into smaller communities such as Joliet, which is a short skip away from one of my family members farm properties. You wouldn't ever see this in the IA/IL Quad City metro, Des Moines or Kansas City, but you start spiraling out and it gets more and more backwater with every mile...
There was probably an argument in which Nag probably got up in the cop's face about how it was his private property and the cop probably started to feel threatened and pulled out the mace.
What if the officer felt threatened by a raised voice? He has no legal authority over this mans vehicle parked on his private property and is wasting this mans time and taxpayer resources by questioning him in the first place. As far as I am concerned he should have been able to tell that pig to fuck off and die without ever having to worry about incurring physical and verbal abuse at the hands of such an ignorant meathead. I feel sorry for anyone who would accept anything less...
posted by prostyle at 7:55 AM on April 12, 2007
Gnostic Novelist, don't you get it? No matter what they do, not matter how heinous the crime nor how far-reaching the corruption, you're still supposed to respect the cops. Just like soldiers!
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:00 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:00 AM on April 12, 2007
No, sir, you are supposed to respect them until they give you a reason not to, just like everybody else.
posted by jonmc at 8:02 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by jonmc at 8:02 AM on April 12, 2007
I feel like we're missing quite a large piece of the story.
Of course the article linked is going to be biased. As is anything that comes out of the police dept.
I'm not sure I can believe that the cop goes from talking with the guy to hitting him with pepper spray because he said he couldn't move his van.
There was probably an argument in which Nag probably got up in the cop's face about how it was his private property and the cop probably started to feel threatened and pulled out the mace.
The cop probably got a nice shot of adrenaline at that point given the most "action" he sees in a typical day is writing parking tickets and overreacted.
posted by ruthsarian at 7:42 AM on April 12
Putting someone in the hospital is "overreacting"? It wasn't just pepper spray - he beat the guy with his baton. Oh, and he also screamed "“You fucking Arab! You fucking immigrant, go back to your fucking country before I kill you!”"
I hope the next time you get cut off in traffic and tell someone to "fuck off" they ram your car, empty a magazine into your skull, and their defenders say that they "overreacted."
No, sir, you are supposed to respect them until they give you a reason not to, just like everybody else.
posted by jonmc at 8:02 AM on April 12
The entire system that produces officers is fatally flawed, and anyone who would want to be a cop in this environment is already a bully or a masochist. They need to earn respect, because their fellow officers already pissed it all away.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:06 AM on April 12, 2007
Of course the article linked is going to be biased. As is anything that comes out of the police dept.
I'm not sure I can believe that the cop goes from talking with the guy to hitting him with pepper spray because he said he couldn't move his van.
There was probably an argument in which Nag probably got up in the cop's face about how it was his private property and the cop probably started to feel threatened and pulled out the mace.
The cop probably got a nice shot of adrenaline at that point given the most "action" he sees in a typical day is writing parking tickets and overreacted.
posted by ruthsarian at 7:42 AM on April 12
Putting someone in the hospital is "overreacting"? It wasn't just pepper spray - he beat the guy with his baton. Oh, and he also screamed "“You fucking Arab! You fucking immigrant, go back to your fucking country before I kill you!”"
I hope the next time you get cut off in traffic and tell someone to "fuck off" they ram your car, empty a magazine into your skull, and their defenders say that they "overreacted."
No, sir, you are supposed to respect them until they give you a reason not to, just like everybody else.
posted by jonmc at 8:02 AM on April 12
The entire system that produces officers is fatally flawed, and anyone who would want to be a cop in this environment is already a bully or a masochist. They need to earn respect, because their fellow officers already pissed it all away.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:06 AM on April 12, 2007
So basically, three blind mice, you're saying that because people really sucked 200 years ago, it's okay that they suck now?
You know who else sucked?
posted by Deathalicious at 8:06 AM on April 12, 2007
You know who else sucked?
posted by Deathalicious at 8:06 AM on April 12, 2007
anyone who would want to be a cop in this environment is already a bully or a masochist.
thanks a lot, mr. drive-by psychoanalyst.
posted by jonmc at 8:07 AM on April 12, 2007
thanks a lot, mr. drive-by psychoanalyst.
posted by jonmc at 8:07 AM on April 12, 2007
Gnostic Novelist:
and on occasion police do do decent work
Of the three occasions I had to deal with U.S. cops, only one of them was bordering on jerkhood. The other two were solid examples of professionalism.
posted by illiad at 8:10 AM on April 12, 2007
and on occasion police do do decent work
Of the three occasions I had to deal with U.S. cops, only one of them was bordering on jerkhood. The other two were solid examples of professionalism.
posted by illiad at 8:10 AM on April 12, 2007
Of the three occasions I had to deal with U.S. cops, only one of them was bordering on jerkhood. The other two were solid examples of professionalism.
Yeah, being white and middle-class is awesome.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:19 AM on April 12, 2007
Yeah, being white and middle-class is awesome.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:19 AM on April 12, 2007
Yeah, being white and middle-class is awesome.
I suppose. I'm not white.
posted by illiad at 8:21 AM on April 12, 2007
I suppose. I'm not white.
posted by illiad at 8:21 AM on April 12, 2007
Cops' attitudes usually reflect those of their command. You see a couple cops on the corner, hairy eyeballs at every passerby, stepping in the way of minority ladies with carts full of shopping or strollers full of babies, and you can bet that they have a lieutenant or captain at the precinct who either doesn't mind or encourages that shit. Because if their boss didn't tolerate it, they'd be out walking up and down the windy alley over by the docks watching rats and pigeons and wondering where their careers went, or sitting out at the target range handing out towels to the cops they let carry a sidearm.
It's usually a failure in leadership, and when cops whose ideals don't match with the section, they either transfer (willingly or un-) or they change. Makes for a lot of weary, misanthropic cops: they get it from all sides. The street teaches them nothing but wrong, the precinct house reinforces it, and they go home, and, well, home is what they sacrifice; as they harden on the outside, they harden on the inside, and they find they've given up on the public they swore to protect, their families they can't connect with, and the oaths they took when they were idealistic, before they had it ground out of them from every side. And they still have to take welfare to make ends meet, walk into the grocery store in the uniform they buy themselves and plop down a stack of food stamps to keep their kids fed. These sacrifices keep the rest of us safe, give us someone to ask for help who we know will throw themselves in the middle of any trouble, even though they've learned to hate us for their own losses.
Nothing excuses police brutality, or ignorance, or racism, or sloth. There are plenty of cops I hate, and a few I consider pigs. But anyone who calls all cops pigs is even more thoughtless than this stupid fuck who beat the Sikh half to death, and just like bad lieutenants should be avoided for the poison they spread, so should these ignorant, protected shit-stirrers who are out to bigot anyone who will listen against mostly good people who are willing to change themselves, mostly for the worse, so that we don't spend every wking hour worrying about crime.
This cop in Illinois, and his entire command, should be replaced. It won't happen, but there are a lot of "shoulds" that lie unanswered when it comes to police.
posted by breezeway at 8:23 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
It's usually a failure in leadership, and when cops whose ideals don't match with the section, they either transfer (willingly or un-) or they change. Makes for a lot of weary, misanthropic cops: they get it from all sides. The street teaches them nothing but wrong, the precinct house reinforces it, and they go home, and, well, home is what they sacrifice; as they harden on the outside, they harden on the inside, and they find they've given up on the public they swore to protect, their families they can't connect with, and the oaths they took when they were idealistic, before they had it ground out of them from every side. And they still have to take welfare to make ends meet, walk into the grocery store in the uniform they buy themselves and plop down a stack of food stamps to keep their kids fed. These sacrifices keep the rest of us safe, give us someone to ask for help who we know will throw themselves in the middle of any trouble, even though they've learned to hate us for their own losses.
Nothing excuses police brutality, or ignorance, or racism, or sloth. There are plenty of cops I hate, and a few I consider pigs. But anyone who calls all cops pigs is even more thoughtless than this stupid fuck who beat the Sikh half to death, and just like bad lieutenants should be avoided for the poison they spread, so should these ignorant, protected shit-stirrers who are out to bigot anyone who will listen against mostly good people who are willing to change themselves, mostly for the worse, so that we don't spend every wking hour worrying about crime.
This cop in Illinois, and his entire command, should be replaced. It won't happen, but there are a lot of "shoulds" that lie unanswered when it comes to police.
posted by breezeway at 8:23 AM on April 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
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posted by Firas at 1:31 AM on April 12, 2007