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April 16, 2007 9:38 AM   RSS feed for this thread Subscribe

NewsFilter: At least 20 are dead in multiple shootings at Virginia Tech. Just last week, Virginia Tech closed part of its campus as it was the target of multiple bomb threats.
posted by phaedon (1146 comments total) 20 users marked this as a favorite

I think I'm going to be sick.
posted by MegoSteve at 9:41 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Apparently, Norris Hall, where the majority of the shootings took place, is where the "Department of Engineering, Science and Mechanics" is located. Last week, that's the department the bomb threat was sent to, through interdepartmental mail.
posted by phaedon at 9:41 AM on April 16, 2007


AP reporting 22 now. Jesus Christ.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:41 AM on April 16, 2007


How many more people gotta die, man?
posted by Flashman at 9:44 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


What the fuck, people?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:45 AM on April 16, 2007


The attacks mark the worst school shooting incident since 1999 when Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris killed 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado.

I hate that this is common enough to warrant a term of its own and that there is a scorecard comparing the number deaths between the incidents.
posted by slimepuppy at 9:46 AM on April 16, 2007


I just talked to a friend of mine in engineering classes at Tech.

He heard both shootings - two hours apart on two different parts of campus. Said the first sounded pretty low-calibre. he guessed a pistol. He missed the second, in a lecture hall, because he was running late.

Awareness of the shootings only started to spread a full two hours after the first shots were fired. Many are questioning the administration and police handling of the situation.

people were saying that there was some confrontation between an RA and a girls boyfriend. He shot the RA and then the gf

well, it seems like it might have started as a passion thing and then it devolved into a "oh well i'm fucked anyway"
posted by phrontist at 9:46 AM on April 16, 2007


Let the healin blaming begin. Video games? Godlessness? Dungeons and Dragons? Neo-Nazis?
posted by adipocere at 9:47 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Fucking hell. I was hoping that "multiple shootings" was awkward copy, but no.
posted by cortex at 9:47 AM on April 16, 2007


Another friend:

there was a shooting in the dorms at 7am, the shooter was still at large, public schools went into lockdown yet the campus staid open until the shooter moved to an academic building and shot a bunch of people
posted by phrontist at 9:48 AM on April 16, 2007


I hate that this is common enough to warrant a term of its own and that there is a scorecard comparing the number deaths between the incidents.

I hate the fact that we're within three days of the anniversary of Columbine and the Oklahoma City bombing, which were both at one point suggested in a connection to Hitler and/or Waco. What the fuck is it with this particular week?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:48 AM on April 16, 2007


Please let us not spread rumors or unattributed theories regarding motives.
This only makes people more upset.
posted by Dizzy at 9:48 AM on April 16, 2007


Aw, god damnit. God damn it. Shit can go down anywhere. A big part of my heart lives in Blacksburg and this hurts. A lot.
posted by Wolfdog at 9:49 AM on April 16, 2007


Yikes. Just about all of the links are loading very slowly or timing out, I'm sure there are lots of people trying to find out what the heck is going on. I can't imagine how devastating this will be to so many students and families.
posted by Rhomboid at 9:51 AM on April 16, 2007


I remember all too clearly following (from less than a mile away!) the Columbine shootings on the news (and remembering that I had met Harris and Klebold a few months back in a diner, and thought they were egotistical and self-centered jerks).

"Ever" is too soon to hear about another shooting like this.
posted by ziz at 9:52 AM on April 16, 2007


I was hoping that "multiple shootings" was awkward copy, but no.

Same here. I had heard 1 fatality on the radio. I turned on CNN, I saw them reporting 20 fatalities, and hoped the caption writer had confused "fatality" with "injury". No such luck. This is just so sad and crazy.
posted by booksherpa at 9:53 AM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by dead_ at 9:53 AM on April 16, 2007


A coworker's son was there. He's fine, but Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:55 AM on April 16, 2007


I'm just beyond words. I'm sitting here with other Ph.D. students looking into a full undergraduate classroom from an observation lab and none of us are saying much of anything. No one is thinking of anything but this.
posted by mrmojoflying at 9:57 AM on April 16, 2007


Jesus. I've got a lot of friends at Tech. I hope they're okay. (Well, I know they won't be okay, but I hope they're alive...)

My thoughts are with all of them and their families.
posted by armage at 9:57 AM on April 16, 2007


There's now a Wiki page up on the event to try and clarify some of the conflicting information floating about.
posted by thanotopsis at 10:00 AM on April 16, 2007


. posted by dead, not funny smart arse
posted by baker dave at 10:00 AM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by dhartung at 10:01 AM on April 16, 2007


What the fuck is wrong with people? I'm so sorry for the families of the slain.
posted by Mister_A at 10:01 AM on April 16, 2007


21 dead, 21 injured
posted by Happy Dave at 10:02 AM on April 16, 2007


baker dave, dead_ is an established 21K user with an actual posting history.
posted by dhartung at 10:02 AM on April 16, 2007


wonder what the 'explanation,' behind this one is going to be. I dunno if there's any point in looking for sense where there isn't any.
posted by jonmc at 10:03 AM on April 16, 2007


VT has not reported that it will be easier for students to obtain single-occupancy dorms for the remainder of the semester.

WTF, Wikipedia?
posted by drezdn at 10:03 AM on April 16, 2007


Fuck
posted by cloeburner at 10:03 AM on April 16, 2007


Blacksburg was a place where you felt like this would never, ever happen. I truly feel for those families and all of their friends. Going back is going to feel different from now on. Damn shame.
posted by dopamine at 10:04 AM on April 16, 2007


Brady Campaign
posted by matteo at 10:05 AM on April 16, 2007 [7 favorites has favorites]


From the wiki page linked by thanatopsis:

VT has not reported that it will be easier for students to obtain single-occupancy dorms for the remainder of the semester.

It's shit like that -- no matter how shortly it will stay on the page -- that will prevent wiki from ever reaching the esteem to which it aspires.

Oh, and

.
posted by pardonyou? at 10:05 AM on April 16, 2007


Like you Wolfdog, Blacksburg and Va Tech are simply part of who I am. This is just sick and sad and heartbreaking... don't know any other way to say it.
posted by Witty at 10:06 AM on April 16, 2007


Holy shit.
posted by brundlefly at 10:07 AM on April 16, 2007


Jesus, life is so random and fleeting. No control. No sanity. No guarantees. What a tragedy. Terrible.

.
posted by aacheson at 10:08 AM on April 16, 2007


Coral Cache link to the statement by University President President Charles W. Steger
Quoted below since it times out a lot:
Shooting at Virginia Tech / Statement by President Charles W. Steger

By Larry Hincker

BLACKSBURG, Va., April 16, 2007

The university was struck today with a tragedy of monumental proportions. There were two shootings on campus. In each case, there were fatalities. The university is shocked and horrified that this would befall our campus. I want to extend my deepest, sincerest and most profound sympathies to the families of these victims which include students There are 22 confirmed deaths.

We currently are in the process of notifying families of victims. The Virginia Tech Police are being assisted by numerous other jurisdictions. Crime scenes are being investigated by the FBI, University Police, and State Police. We continue to work to identify the victims impacted by this tragedy. I cannot begin to covey my own personal sense of loss over this senselessness of such an incomprehensible and heinous act The university will immediately set up counseling centers. So far centers have been identified in Ambler Johnston and the Cook Counseling Center to work with our campus community and families.

Here are some of the facts we know:

At about 7:15 a.m. this morning a 911 call came to the University Police Department concerning an event in West Ambler Johnston Hall. There were multiple shooting victims. While in the process of investigating, about two hours later the university received reports of a shooting in Norris Hall. The police immediately responded. Victims have been transported to various hospitals in the immediate area in the region to receive emergency treatment.

We will proceed to contact the families of victims as identities are available.

All classes are cancelled and the university is closed for the remainder of today. The university will open Tuesday at 8 a.m. but classes are cancelled. The police are currently staging the release of people from campus buildings.

Families wishing to reunite with the students are suggested to meet at the Inn at Virginia Tech. We are making plans for a convocation tomorrow (Tuesday) at noon at Cassell Coliseum for the university community to come together to begin to deal with the tragedy.

-----------------

Counseling is available in the Bowman Room in the Merriman Center (part of the athletic complex) for employees who seek assistance following today's events.

Faculty and staff on the Burruss side of the Drillfield are being released and asked to go home effective immediately. Faculty and staff on the War Memorial side are asked to leave at 12:30 p.m.

-----------------

Virginia Tech has closed today Monday, April 16, 2007. On Tuesday, April 17, classes will be canceled. The university will remain open for administrative operations.

There will be an additional university statement presented today at noon.

All students, faculty, and staff are required to stay where they are until police execute a planned evacuation. A phased closing will be in effect today; further information will be forthcoming as soon as police secure the campus.

Tomorrow, there will be a university convocation/ceremony at noon at Cassell Coliseum. The Inn at Virginia Tech has been designated as the site for parents to gather and obtain information.

-----------------

In addition to an earlier shooting today in West Ambler Johnston, there has been a multiple shooting with multiple victims in Norris Hall.

Police and EMS are on the scene.

Police have one shooter in custody and as part of routine police procedure, they continue to search for a second shooter.

All people in university buildings are required to stay inside until further notice.

All entrances to campus are closed.

posted by Rhomboid at 10:09 AM on April 16, 2007


Sweet Jesus.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:10 AM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by everichon at 10:11 AM on April 16, 2007


Blacksburg was a place where you felt like this would never, ever happen.

I spent a year at Virginia Tech but left because I found something about the school desperate and depressing. While I was there a guy who was in a few of my classes jumped to his death off the top of Lane Stadium. It's sad and surreal to hear about this shooting, but I wouldn't consider Blacksburg to be somehow blessed as a tragedy-free town.
posted by peeedro at 10:14 AM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by moonbird at 10:15 AM on April 16, 2007


Two students were injured after they panicked and jumped out an upper level window.

Fuck. What the fuck.
posted by odinsdream at 10:15 AM on April 16, 2007


VT website reporting that the gunman is dead.
posted by moonbird at 10:16 AM on April 16, 2007


well, it seems like it might have started as a passion thing and then it devolved into a "oh well i'm fucked anyway"

If they are saying 25 now there is no way this was a spur of the moment passion thing. This sounds like one or more people walking around w/ a duffel bag full of guns and ammo in something that was planned in detail.
posted by well_balanced at 10:16 AM on April 16, 2007


I think this part of the story is kind of weird, in a way I can't really quantify:

Madison Van Duyne said she and her classmates in a media writing class were on "lockdown" in their classrooms. They were huddled in the middle of the classroom, writing stories about the shootings and posting them online.

The university is updating its 26,000 students through e-mails, and an Internet webcam is broadcasting live pictures of the campus.


I can't even imagine what I would be writing were in this situation other than "HOLY FUCK, FUCK FUCK."

My immense sympathies to the families/friends of the victims - this is beyond tragic.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:20 AM on April 16, 2007


.

What a waste.
posted by The Power Nap at 10:21 AM on April 16, 2007


Classes are canceled Tuesday, but what about Wednesday? Thursday? When would you be able to get back to your studies? My first thought (after Oh shit-- how horrible) is will they give every student at the school an "A" for the semester? How are these kids ever going to continue on?

I would jerk my child so fast out of that college she would have whiplash.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:21 AM on April 16, 2007


"Brady Campaign
posted by matteo at 10:05 AM on April 16 [+] [!]"

you should be ashamed of yourself for even posting that bullshit, matteo.

This is not the time or the place to start up the gun control debate.

I wish there was a "Total Jackass Post" flag.
posted by drstein at 10:23 AM on April 16, 2007 [8 favorites has favorites]


.
posted by dead_ at 9:53 AM on April 16


Eponytragic.
posted by ereshkigal45 at 10:24 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Werd
posted by Witty at 10:24 AM on April 16, 2007


I would jerk my child so fast out of that college she would have whiplash.

What would that solve, exactly?

If you were able to read the future and get your child out of the school BEFORE the shooting, well, that's another matter.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:25 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Confusion reigns here.

First off, the reports state that there was a single shooting incident at the dorms at 7:15, with 2 dead there, then 2 hours later 18-20 more people were shot? And then there are reports of a single shooter, then multiple shooters, then one shooter dead, either by his own hand, or by police fire. So, um. Yeah.

A lot of dead, not a lot of facts. This one is going to be interesting.
posted by daq at 10:26 AM on April 16, 2007


A shockingly horrible event.

I can't help but wonder whether this will do to college campuses what Columbine did to high schools (shooting drills, lockdowns) or whether (God forbid) there might be a shooting trend in higher ed as we've seen at the secondary level.

My thoughts and sympathy to anyone affected by this situation. I shudder to consider the possibility of such a thing at my own university campus.
posted by washburn at 10:26 AM on April 16, 2007


Yeah, I'm really looking for more info. Are the cable news channels giving much information?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:27 AM on April 16, 2007


there might be a shooting trend in higher ed as we've seen at the secondary level.

There was a scientist who claimed around the time of the Amish school shooting that these things happen in waves.

I can't even imagine what a locked down university would be like.
posted by drezdn at 10:29 AM on April 16, 2007


I agree with Gravy. I can't see how I would be able to troop back into class and start studying after only one day off. Even at a school that big, a lot of kids are bound to have at least some sort of passing relationship with at least one of the victims. It would be hard as hell to concentrate on work that soon.
posted by octothorpe at 10:29 AM on April 16, 2007


On the afternoon of July 8, 2006, four private security guards rolled out of Baghdad's Green Zone in an armored SUV. The team leader, Jacob C. Washbourne, rode in the front passenger seat. He seemed in a good mood. His vacation started the next day.

"I want to kill somebody today," Washbourne said, according to the three other men in the vehicle, who later recalled it as an offhand remark. Before the day was over, however, the guards had been involved in three shooting incidents. In one, Washbourne allegedly fired into the windshield of a taxi for amusement, according to interviews and statements from the three other guards.


Blame video games, right?
Our own government promotes a culture where we kill people different than ourselves for fun.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 10:31 AM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


It takes a real asshole to kill people like this. There's no excuse for doing something this shitty. I know that sounds like an idiotic thing to say, but it bears saying: people have reasons for getting mad and doing all sorts of things, but only assholes have reasons to go on killing sprees.

I'm terribly sorry to hear this and my heart breaks for the families and friends, and the university, involved.
posted by breezeway at 10:32 AM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


Supposed myspace profile of killer. Emphasis on supposed, since the killer hasnt been identified by police. (via fark)
posted by SirOmega at 10:32 AM on April 16, 2007


The Roanoke Times has been updating a page with information throughout the day. (Roanoke, for those who don't know, is the closest "big" city to Blacksburg, about 40 miles away).
posted by skynxnex at 10:33 AM on April 16, 2007


Ok, now updated to saw single shooter, dead, with 21 dead victims.

That makes more sense now. Though, man, this guy came prepared. If we're talking handgun, he had to reload at least 3 times, unless he had a pre-ban clip, and even then, we're talking a .22 if your getting anything more than 16 rounds in a single pistol. So 2 clips of ammo, minumum, or a six shooter with a box of shells. Then you've got how he got from one side of the campus to the other, with a weapon that was recently fired, and possibly witnesses who saw him leaving the original scene of the crime. So 2 hours after the initial shooting, he opens up on a classroom. Wow. Can't wait until the network televisions dramatization. And the "dramatic recreations" on 20/20, Nightline, Fox News, etc, etc, etc.

VA Tech is also one of the most "wired" and wireless campuses in the country. The last time I was there I was able to maintain a network connection from one end of campus all the way to downtown Blacksburg. There _will_ be CC camera footage of this, there will be phone cams, webcams, and every other type of camera footage. It will be graphic. Are you entertained yet?
posted by daq at 10:34 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


21 dead, 21 injured

Jesus, what did he have, an AK47?
posted by jokeefe at 10:34 AM on April 16, 2007


Are the cable news channels giving much information?

Any information you get there will be based on speculation, rumor and conjecture. Such outlets no longer feel any moral or journalist compunction to check and verify info before reporting it. At this point, the best thing to do is ignore what you're hearing from the cable channels and the web and just watch for official reports from local law enforcement.

... And if you're inclined, to pray for the victims and their families and friends. This is awful. My heart goes out to them.
posted by psmealey at 10:34 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Wikinews
posted by Rhomboid at 10:36 AM on April 16, 2007


Supposed myspace profile of killer.

Wow. This is the world we live in now, I guess.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:36 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


I was doing some web research last night on cross-cultural studies of violence, prompted by the Pinker article thread. Anyway, there's lots of ambiguity and controversy on the topic. There is a correlation between cultures at war and violence domestically. Ember and Ember's model of predilection for warfare shows the external factor of resource unpredictability with an internal factor of socialization of fear.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:37 AM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


Jesus christ. When I heard on the way to work this morning that 1 had been killed I was horrified - and now...

April 19th (used to be) Patriot's Day, which was really an excuse for us in high school (in Boston) to have the day off and watch the marathon. I hate that it's been co-opted by the Columbine/OK City/etc. awfulness.

Poor kids....

.
posted by rtha at 10:37 AM on April 16, 2007


ABC says it's up to 29 dead and counting...
posted by jaysus chris at 10:38 AM on April 16, 2007


Wait, it was one shooter? And the first shooting occurred two hours before the second?

What?!
posted by odinsdream at 10:40 AM on April 16, 2007


ABC is saying 29 dead now.
posted by octothorpe at 10:40 AM on April 16, 2007


Jesus. Christ.

CBS radio just reported that the Justice Department now says that at least TWENTY NINE have been killed.
posted by rosemere at 10:40 AM on April 16, 2007


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:41 AM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by ztdavis at 10:41 AM on April 16, 2007


Wait, it was one shooter? And the first shooting occurred two hours before the second?

I think this situation is one of those times where people didn't expect it to escalate. After all, if things happened as described, it sounded like the initial shooting may have been relationship related. In general, those don't seem to be followed with mass killings.
posted by drezdn at 10:42 AM on April 16, 2007


VT is my alma mater, and being a Hokie is a huge part of who I am.

That something this awful can happen in Blacksburg is horrible. My heart goes out to every person hurt, and every family that is going to be indelibly changed because some shit-for-brains couldn't control himself.

I'd really like to make some insightful comment on man's inhumanity to man, but I can't seem to find the words today...

Fuck.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 10:42 AM on April 16, 2007


Jesus, what did he have, an AK47?

News reports are that it was two 9-mm pistols. That would be plenty, if he had clips for them too.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 10:42 AM on April 16, 2007


This is not the time or the place to start up the gun control debate.

I really don't understand this. If not now when? We are not physically at the heart of the situation here. I see no reason why it is intrinsically disrespectful or shameful to bring up gun control at this time. Or more open gun rights, for that matter.

It would be an absolute abomination to be walking around the campus going "See? See? This is what I've been talking about" right now, but doing it on some dumb website is not at all the same thing. The reality of horrible events like this is why there is a debate over firearms in the first place. Of course the subject is going to come up now.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:43 AM on April 16, 2007 [21 favorites has favorites]


I think Gravy's (hypothetical) daughter would benefit from staying at the school -- she'd be surrounded by people who had gone through the same trauma she had. Plus you know it would be one of the safest places around.

But I would want my kids home with me, too.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:44 AM on April 16, 2007


Why can't assholes like this just turn their guns on themselves and spare everyone else their lunacy?
I hope the numbers are off.

THIS IS NOT WHAT PEOPLE GO TO COLLEGE FOR GODDAMMIT!!(or high school...)
posted by a3matrix at 10:45 AM on April 16, 2007


A White House spokesman said President Bush was horrified by the rampage and offered his prayers to the victims and the people of Virginia.

"The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," spokeswoman Dana Perino said.
posted by banishedimmortal at 10:45 AM on April 16, 2007


Absolutely tragic. Just oversaw a funeral today for a 33 year-old who died of cancer - it was almost unbearable. I can't even begin to fathom the depths of this tragedy for the students and their families.

this has also completely ruined my birthday.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:46 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy writes "I would jerk my child so fast out of that college she would have whiplash."

Why? As far as I know there has never been a repeat at any school. And the school is likely the best place to get councilling if required.

washburn writes "I can't help but wonder whether this will do to college campuses what Columbine did to high schools (shooting drills, lockdowns) or whether (God forbid) there might be a shooting trend in higher ed as we've seen at the secondary level."

Montreal's École Polytechnique shooting didn't have extreme changes in operating policy though the police changed there methods significantly.
posted by Mitheral at 10:46 AM on April 16, 2007


Campus map

It looks like the first building was right in the center of campus and the second was across the large field and in the lower right (ish) corner of this map.
posted by ztdavis at 10:47 AM on April 16, 2007


you know, I could give a shit about what Bush says...

Can we end this derail now?
posted by HuronBob at 10:47 AM on April 16, 2007


There were a LOT of gunshots in that video on CNN.
posted by empath at 10:47 AM on April 16, 2007


Jesus Christ. I just--can't.
posted by atayah at 10:47 AM on April 16, 2007


I was thinking exactly what Lentrohamsanin was thinking. Now is the time to talk about gun control, not when memories fade and denial sets in. Though it seems to set in earlier each time, anyway.

.
posted by Rumple at 10:47 AM on April 16, 2007


Oh and also - I think I'm ready for the handgun ban now.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:48 AM on April 16, 2007


Because, Lentrohamsanin, this dumb website isn't as remote from this tragedy as you seem to think. There's already been at least four alumni of Virginia Tech posting in this thread. This hits close to them. Because of this, and the scope of the tragedy being sufficient to quite upset people personally remote from it, then a political debate that is already fraught with high emotions and loose and inflammatory rhetoric becomes entirely unproductive and will be a clusterfuck. That's why. You talk about things when you can productively talk about them.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:48 AM on April 16, 2007 [7 favorites has favorites]


I can't help but wonder whether this will do to college campuses what Columbine did to high schools (shooting drills, lockdowns)

Why? School violence at all levels has been going on for nearly fifty years as far as I know. This isn't a "new" problem, and it frustrates me that the media and many people consider it so.
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:49 AM on April 16, 2007


Jesus, what did he have, an AK47?

News reports are that it was two 9-mm pistols. That would be plenty, if he had clips for them too.


I guess I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the idea that he would have had to fire single bullets at each individual. I can imagine a spray of automatic gunfire in a lecture hall killing and injuring so many, but to fire over 50 times? Jesus.

(Note: What I know about different types of guns I learned from television. So I might be off base here.)
posted by jokeefe at 10:49 AM on April 16, 2007


Interesting aside:

MSNBC had an FBI agent on earlier today saying that the Feds already keep a pretty good eye on VT, because the student body has students from 49 states and 27 foreign countries.

So, in effect, not only did this tragedy happen in rural SW Virginia, it happened right under the government's eye. I guess it goes to show you can't stop determined crazy people.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 10:49 AM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


Speaking for my not-so-long-ago student self, I would have wanted to be back to the campus and back to classes as soon as possible. That was and is my place and I would be loath to be driven from it.
posted by Wolfdog at 10:50 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Lentrohamsanin writes "I really don't understand this. If not now when? We are not physically at the heart of the situation here. I see no reason why it is intrinsically disrespectful or shameful to bring up gun control at this time. Or more open gun rights, for that matter.

"It would be an absolute abomination to be walking around the campus going 'See? See? This is what I've been talking about' right now, but doing it on some dumb website is not at all the same thing."


Agreed. I'm not a big advocate of gun control (a bit conflicted on the issue, actually), but saying "now is not the time to debate" reminds me of the "now is not the time for the blame game" bullshit right after Katrina. Unless you're out there helping the victims and their families, why shouldn't you be talking about this.
posted by brundlefly at 10:52 AM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


Scary - my brother is an undergrad in engineering at tech. He's okay, but doesn't know if he knows any of the victims yet.
posted by taliaferro at 10:52 AM on April 16, 2007


"hough, man, this guy came prepared. If we're talking handgun, he had to reload at least 3 times, unless he had a pre-ban clip, and even then, we're talking a .22 if your getting anything more than 16 rounds in a single pistol."

As an FYI,
* That ban expired years ago, so it wouldn't be "pre-ban."
* The stock 9mm Glock 17 ships with 17 round magazines. Except in states that still have the 10 round magazine limit, such as MD and CA.
posted by drstein at 10:53 AM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by buzzman at 10:53 AM on April 16, 2007


fox news says 32. but they say a lot of shit.
posted by quonsar at 10:53 AM on April 16, 2007


Some photos of police there on flickr
posted by mattbucher at 10:54 AM on April 16, 2007


It's hard to get solid info at this point, as they try to figure stuff out.

22 dead seems unreal. Hopefully the number will go down.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:54 AM on April 16, 2007


Gun control would have made the Appalachian Law School shooting worse; it certainly led to many additional deaths in the Luby's massacre.

Washington, DC has the strictest gun control in the country, to the point of violating the Constitution. How's that working out for them?
posted by commander_cool at 10:55 AM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


I have a friend on the faculty there. Thankfully he wrote back immediately that he's safe. What a fucking tragedy this is.

.
posted by felix betachat at 10:55 AM on April 16, 2007


The composure on this gunman to do what he did is very, very rare. Killing random people is not easy, which is why death tolls from such events are usually rather low in regards to the fire power used. This person managed to maintain absolute composure, enough to reload several times and fire accurately in complete chaos, then walk across campus for several hours to do it again without breaking down.

I would not be surprised to find he was ex-military or police. This is not something you just pick up and gun and do. He had to have at least some basic firearm training.
posted by geoff. at 10:56 AM on April 16, 2007


Jesus, what did he have, an AK47?

News reports are that it was two 9-mm pistols. That would be plenty, if he had clips for them too.

Wiki Entry: "News reports indicated that the gunman used two handguns, one of which was a 9mm pistol, and the other a DAO-12 Shotgun (!) to carry out the shootings before turning a gun on himself"

WTF?!
posted by mazola at 10:58 AM on April 16, 2007


Rumple writes "I was thinking exactly what Lentrohamsanin was thinking. Now is the time to talk about gun control, not when memories fade and denial sets in. Though it seems to set in earlier each time, anyway."

If you want irrational policy and laws make them when irrationality is running high. Personally I'd rather see calm legislation rather than that passed when emotion is running high. Otherwise you get crap like PATRIOT.
posted by Mitheral at 10:58 AM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


Killfile over at Newsvine has some up to the minute details. I believe he is based in Blacksburg.
posted by deern the headlice at 10:59 AM on April 16, 2007


Ethereal Bligh writes "Yeah, I'm really looking for more info. Are the cable news channels giving much information?"

EB, you should remember from Columbine and 9/11 that what the cable channels say today doesn't really matter much. It won't be until tomorrow at the earliest that the information is going to start being reliable (I remember that in Columbine, the reported casualties started around 20, got even higher, and then dropped down to the final 13).
posted by Bugbread at 11:00 AM on April 16, 2007


Sure gun control wouldn;t work... Thats why in the UK this kind of workplace/school mass slaying is practically nonexistant.
posted by Artw at 11:01 AM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


29 people. Jesus christ. Has there ever been a mass killing on this scale anywhere in the U.S. in the past?

Just my luck to work on a college campus now, I'm worried this is going to make everyone paranoid and crazy.
posted by delmoi at 11:01 AM on April 16, 2007


This is not the time or the place to start up the gun control debate.

This is the standard GOP argument. Whenever the tide turns against one of their sacred positions, it's "not the time or place to start up that debate."
posted by eriko at 11:02 AM on April 16, 2007 [10 favorites has favorites]


Unless you're out there helping the victims and their families, why shouldn't you be talking about this.
posted by brundlefly at 12:52 PM on April 16


Because it is crass politicization of tragedy? Because it is disgusting to see people see a tragedy and immediately think "Sweet! A data point to help me argue for my preferred political view!"

But the reason why it is so asinine to be arguing right now is because we don't know the facts yet of what happened. We know nothing except that a grave tragedy has occurred. But some people are so obsessed over their politics, that they will make the necessary assumptions in order to use this as a pretext for advancing their pet ideological issues.

Do you know if this was a guy or a girl? If so, where did this guy/girl get his/her weapons? Oh, that's right, you don't have a fricking clue. Until you know that this could have been prevented by whatever policy you advocate, then you are wise to shut your piehole because all you are doing is derailing this thread where we are trying to find out the basic facts. Feel free to go circlejerk on guncontrol.com or whatever, but lets not try to exploit the emotional energy of this group to push your pet issue.
posted by dios at 11:02 AM on April 16, 2007 [23 favorites has favorites]


After all, if things happened as described, it sounded like the initial shooting may have been relationship related. In general, those don't seem to be followed with mass killings.

My surprise is due to the fact that the same guy wasn't caught before moving to another location and having that much time elapse. Either he should have been caught, or the school should have been under heavy, heavy lockdown immediately after it was known he was missing. Maybe it was, I'm just having trouble following the story.

MSNBC had an FBI agent on earlier today saying that the Feds already keep a pretty good eye on VT, because the student body has students from 49 states and 27 foreign countries.

Is this what passes for dialogue on an interview with an FBI official? I sure as hell hope the followup question was "Sir, don't most schools have students from many diverse backgrounds and locations? Why was VT on the FBI's radar, and what exactly does "keep an eye on" entail?"
posted by odinsdream at 11:02 AM on April 16, 2007


The reality of horrible events like this is why there is a debate over firearms in the first place. Of course the subject is going to come up now.

I totally agree. One of the images I remember most clearly from the aftermath of the Columbine shootings was the father of one of the victims standing up at a gun-control rally and speaking of how he was doing it for his son, who would have wanted to spare anyone else the fate that he suffered.

That father was hardly "removed" from the tragedy and I fail to see how it's disrespectful to suggest that one of the best ways to honor those who died would be to do our collective best to prevent such a fate from happening again.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:03 AM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


Sure gun control wouldn;t work... Thats why in the UK this kind of workplace/school mass slaying is practically nonexistant.

Well, it's practically non-existant here in the U.S. as well, but when it does happen it's big news.
posted by delmoi at 11:03 AM on April 16, 2007


29 people. Jesus christ. Has there ever been a mass killing on this scale anywhere in the U.S. in the past?

yes. yes, there has. perhaps you recall oklahoma city? waco? 9/11? and those are merely the recent ones. do you EVER think before you yammer?
posted by quonsar at 11:05 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Pretty frightening story. I look forward to a time when more details come out because it seems like total confusion at the moment. My first reaction is that I'm surprised there wasn't more of a manhunt/lockdown after the first shooting incident. I suppose if there is any takeaway from this tragedy, it'll be that a shooting on a college campus will result in a total evacuation for the day.
posted by mathowie at 11:05 AM on April 16, 2007


Fuck.

And for fuck's sake, what fucking good does having a gun control debate do when they're still counting the bodies? Not that I think waiting until it's at least clear what happened would make the perennial gun control argument magically end in a resolution we can all be happy about, but fucking christ, it's not this is a somehow different situation from every other shooting anywhere in the country. The gun control debate isn't unresolved because of a fucking lack of examples.
posted by Skorgu at 11:05 AM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


.
posted by eyeballkid at 11:05 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Another vote for this being an entirely appropriate time to discuss gun control, violence in our culture, and other issues/reasons dealing with how this happened, could have been avoided, and how best to prevent it from occurring in the future. In many other countries this does not happen, time and again, like it does in the United States. It seems reasonable to ask why.
posted by billysumday at 11:05 AM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


to carry out the shootings before turning a gun on himself

If only more of these people would reverse the order of those two steps.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:06 AM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


"That father was hardly "removed" from the tragedy and I fail to see how it's disrespectful to suggest that one of the best ways to honor those who died would be to do our collective best to prevent such a fate from happening again."

Can we do this tomorrow, then? Already the sarcasm, insults, and yelling have started in this thread. And they don't need to be here. I favor strong gun control, myself, and I don't have a problem with this tragedy spurring a new national debate on it. But right now I'm interested in news of this tragedy, not the usual suspects making their usual snarky arguments. Which is what has already started to happen.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:07 AM on April 16, 2007 [7 favorites has favorites]


.

(via wedge and me)
posted by Stynxno at 11:07 AM on April 16, 2007


If you want irrational policy and laws make them when irrationality is running high. Personally I'd rather see calm legislation rather than that passed when emotion is running high. Otherwise you get crap like PATRIOT.

Concern about the families has already taken second stage for concern about the Second Amendment. Drudge and as such all the usual right-wing suspects are now tossing around a 2006 article about the Virginia legislature rejecting a bill allowing concealed guns on the VT campus.

Because obviously when an unidentified gun-toting madman is running around creating a condition where people are so freaked out they're leaping out of windows, the situation would be so much better if dozens of people all had guns and no thought in their head other than killing anyone else they see with one.

If you don't want to "have the gun control debate" now, fine. But if anyone seriously believes this would have been better if everyone was armed you have to tell me what you would say to the parents of an accidentally murdered student who someone "thought was the guy" first.

29 people. Jesus christ. Has there ever been a mass killing on this scale anywhere in the U.S. in the past?

Assuming you mean gun-related (as opposed to things like 9/11, etc.) then no. This is the worst school shooting ever and one of, if not the, deadliest gun-related killings in history not involving military action.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 11:07 AM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


This is awful. Several of my friends are VT alumni. I can't imagine seeing this on the news about my alma mater.

.
posted by swerve at 11:07 AM on April 16, 2007


Because the entire history of our country, since its "discovery," has been one continuous, obsessive focus on solving problems with violence?
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:08 AM on April 16, 2007


22 dead seems unreal. Hopefully the number will go down.

Unfortunately I just heard from someone working in the emergency department of one of the local hospitals that the official number is now 30 dead. I'm trying to think of something else to say but right now "I feel sick" is all that comes to mind. I have to say though, the snarl of cars I got stuck in as I was trying to make my way home from campus was, like, the most polite traffic jam ever.
posted by purplemonkie at 11:09 AM on April 16, 2007


yes. yes, there has. perhaps you recall oklahoma city? waco? 9/11? and those are merely the recent ones. do you EVER think before you yammer?

I meant shooting deaths, as opposed to bombs. I guess I wasn't that clear.
posted by delmoi at 11:09 AM on April 16, 2007


Recent history, sorry.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 11:10 AM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by awesomebrad at 11:10 AM on April 16, 2007


odinsdream writes "My surprise is due to the fact that the same guy wasn't caught before moving to another location and having that much time elapse. Either he should have been caught, or the school should have been under heavy, heavy lockdown immediately after it was known he was missing. Maybe it was, I'm just having trouble following the story."

What exactly is the goal? These campus are small cities. A "heavy, heavy lockdown" would be like declaring martial law every time a town has a shooting. You don't think that may be just a mite excessive?
posted by Mitheral at 11:11 AM on April 16, 2007


There's never a bad time to debate gun control policy, but please let's do it in another thread, not here.

I'm a VT graduate, and I lived in Ambler Johnson for two years, where I met some of my lifelong friends. Thanks to those who have posted informative links or updates.
posted by Loudmax at 11:13 AM on April 16, 2007


Port Arthur massacre, 1996
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:13 AM on April 16, 2007


................................
posted by cellphone at 11:14 AM on April 16, 2007


Oh and also - I think I'm ready for the handgun ban now.


That's stupid. I can almost guarantee you that the school has a "no handguns on campus" rule.

On the other hand, if every student in those classrooms had a gun and knew how to use it properly, the body count wouldn't have gotten beyond 2.

An armed society is a polite society.
posted by tadellin at 11:14 AM on April 16, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]


. from this cavalier.

I was on campus at Duke when an escaped convict took people hostage in the hospital and was shot by a sniper, and living in the area when Wendell Williamson went on his Franklin Street killing spree. This shit sticks in your head.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:15 AM on April 16, 2007


Well, it's practically non-existant here in the U.S. as well, but when it does happen it's big news.

We had the ipod killer on Mefi just a few days ago. I hear about similar incidents all the time. There were To me practically non existant means it happens once ever ten years or so, not about once a month.
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on April 16, 2007


Port Arthur is interesting and topical, I think, because one can see quite clearly the difference in how Australia, and Australians, handled the incident, and how America has handled the numerous shooting sprees of the past ten, twenty years.
posted by billysumday at 11:17 AM on April 16, 2007


Are there any details on the bomb threat from last week? I wonder what the point of that was, did VT start a program that sparked controversy or anything recently? It seems totally random to just threaten a state university without some odd motivation beyond "he's crazy".
posted by mathowie at 11:18 AM on April 16, 2007


That's stupid. I can almost guarantee you that the school has a "no handguns on campus" rule.

I'm in the "take it outside, fellas" camp when it comes to whether this thread should become a referendum on gun control (like a lot of others, I keep reloading it in hopes of learning something new, not for political debate), but I do have to say...if this is really the best you got, you're not gonna win this argument. For fuck's sake.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:19 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


On the other hand, if every student in those classrooms had a gun and knew how to use it properly, the body count wouldn't have gotten beyond 2.

It would be great if this could be tested. I can't imagine a classroom full of students pulling out guns and only two people people dying, but I do try to keep an open mind.
posted by poppo at 11:20 AM on April 16, 2007 [9 favorites has favorites]


Is this what passes for dialogue on an interview with an FBI official? I sure as hell hope the followup question was "Sir, don't most schools have students from many diverse backgrounds and locations? Why was VT on the FBI's radar, and what exactly does "keep an eye on" entail?"

I agree with you completely that the media is (ahem) "inept".
But, having been a student there, I can tell you VT probably gets the scrutiny because they are an advanced engineering school that does tons of government research, and has not a few students from India, Pakistan, and the Middle East. ( And I am not supporting the scrutiny; I'm just giving you my take.)
posted by Benny Andajetz at 11:20 AM on April 16, 2007


An armed society is a polite society.

Oh obviously
posted by Flashman at 11:21 AM on April 16, 2007 [8 favorites has favorites]


dios, chill the fuck out. Like I said before, I'm not a gun-control advocate. I just see no reason not to discuss it. Did you actually read what I posted?
posted by brundlefly at 11:21 AM on April 16, 2007


Let's leave the gun control debate to the talking heads who are going to shout at each other all week about it.

.

I keep wondering if some small good thing can come of this but I really can't figure out what.
posted by dig_duggler at 11:21 AM on April 16, 2007


This is terrifying. I just don't understand this world sometimes.

.
posted by fair_game at 11:22 AM on April 16, 2007


Lets talk about gun control:

VT has a blanket ban on weapons. They fought defending their right to prevent lawful Virginia concealed weapons permit holders from carrying weapons on campus. They went so far as to try to expel a student who challenged their unlawful attempt to supersede Virginia law just because they don't like it.

Might an armed student or professor been able to end this before 50 some people were shot?
posted by Megafly at 11:22 AM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


This is certainly fucked up. It certainly sounds premeditated. You need a fair amount of infrastructure to run around and kill 20+ people.

An armed society is a polite society.

As polite as the US? Because if there is one thing the US is known for, it's being polite and non-violent.
posted by chunking express at 11:23 AM on April 16, 2007 [14 favorites has favorites]


What exactly is the goal? These campus are small cities. A "heavy, heavy lockdown" would be like declaring martial law every time a town has a shooting. You don't think that may be just a mite excessive?

We really must be misunderstanding eachother, because I am a little surprised by this question.

It's my understanding that a guy shot two people, then this same person, two hours later and in a different location, shot an unknown number of more people.

To your question, my answer is no, I don't think it's excessive. If there was a shooting in your area, and the shooter is missing, it would be critical that he be found quickly and put into police custody. It is also highly likely, you should agree, that without knowing his motives, he be considered extremely dangerous. Obviously, I would hope, the best move would be to inform everyone of this fact (easy in a college setting, given the high level of internal communication), and have them do everything they can to protect themselves.

I'm not suggesting martial law. I'm suggesting extreme vigilance - i.e., locking all external and internal doors, limiting movement of individuals between locations, and ensuring that those who are in safe locations remain safe.
posted by odinsdream at 11:23 AM on April 16, 2007


Like I said before, I'm not a gun-control advocate. I just see no reason not to discuss it.

How about because several people have asked you not to?
posted by Witty at 11:24 AM on April 16, 2007


That's stupid. I can almost guarantee you that the school has a "no handguns on campus" rule.

What people mean is a nationwide ban, so that people can't sneak them in. Obviously, if you're planning on shooting people, you're not worried about breaking other rules as well. The idea is to make it much more difficult for people to get weapons.

I agree with people who think that it's best not to make rules immediately in response to a tragedy like this, but I don't think that's really going to happen.
posted by delmoi at 11:24 AM on April 16, 2007


An armed society is a polite society a society with a capability for acting on really, really stupid impulses.
posted by Artw at 11:24 AM on April 16, 2007 [13 favorites has favorites]


But, having been a student there, I can tell you VT probably gets the scrutiny because they are an advanced engineering school that does tons of government research, and has not a few students from India, Pakistan, and the Middle East.

Yes, but isn't that true of just about every major university in the US?
posted by deanc at 11:24 AM on April 16, 2007


An armed society is a polite society.

Exactly. For a perfect example, see Baghdad.
posted by dhartung at 11:25 AM on April 16, 2007 [22 favorites has favorites]


Holy crap. I work at VT, my wife is a PhD student there. We first heard about the shootings at about 9:15 with a series of frighteningly terse emails. Almost immediately after that the swarm of police cars and ambulances overwhelmed the drillfield in the center of campus. From the windows of my coworkers across the hall, you could see the cops running in, evacuating people, and dragging the injured out.

Still, we had no idea how bad it was until the news conference. They sent us home right after noon, and I heard there were 20 dead on the radio on my way out of the parking lot. I'd only heard one before. I could barely drive home.

My building was also one of the ones evacuated twice in the last two weeks for bomb threats. It's been a crazy year here in Blacksburg...
posted by daveadams at 11:25 AM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


The reason this isn't a good time to do the gun control debate is:
  1. You're not going to magically reach a conclusion in a discussion here on MeFi that you wouldn't have already reached.
  2. Some people are very close to this issue, and tempers and tensions are high.
  3. So there are going to be people who get very pissed and emotional because of the debate.
  4. As such, you're far less likely to reach the magical conclusion.
  5. Even if you do reach a magical conclusion, it means fuck all, because it's just a debate on MeFi. It's about as useful as signing something at onlinepetition.com.
  6. So engaging in that debate has the drawbacks of: getting folks angry and hurt, and the advantages of: nothing.

Now, debating somewhere where it matters, writing congressfolks, organizing a march, whatever the fuck? Good idea. But debating it here on MeFi right now? Stupid unless you want to watch flameouts and flying personal attacks.

I mean, honestly, fuck, how "effective and valuable" do you think a debate on this will take place when people are stuck (amazingly and unusually for MeFi) debating about whether or not they should debate??
posted by Bugbread at 11:25 AM on April 16, 2007 [24 favorites has favorites]


guys, we have all day long tomorrow to discuss gun control.

Meanwhile, as someone with college age children, I am horrified, shocked, and very, very grieved.
posted by konolia at 11:27 AM on April 16, 2007


I live in Blacksburg. My wife was on campus. My kids are in the schools. I didn't know anything for a few hours. You can imagine how that was.

I have heard 32 dead now.

It's just sickening.

.
posted by idb at 11:27 AM on April 16, 2007


I meant shooting deaths, as opposed to bombs. I guess I wasn't that clear.
This?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:27 AM on April 16, 2007


MeTa
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:28 AM on April 16, 2007


.

It does make you a little antsy hearing these stories while working at a college campus. Most shootings on campus are of the distraught lover murder-suicide -- we just had one two weeks ago -- and these mass killings remain thankfully rare in the US. Still, you wonder if someone is just going to snap one day and take it out on some office or classroom.

This just sucks.

As for the "we don't have shootings in the UK" part, I've talked to one paramedic who said they spend a lot of time in casualty pulling pieces of broken pint glass out of faces. Banning guns or regulating the sale of kitchen knives isn't going to stop violence. I'll share my gun control thoughts in another derail at another time.
posted by dw at 11:28 AM on April 16, 2007


Good points all, bugbread.

Take note, dios. You could have made your point without being a dick.
posted by brundlefly at 11:29 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


That's a good point bugbread. I don't really think debating it now would be good either.
posted by delmoi at 11:30 AM on April 16, 2007



.
.
.

I know it's solipsism to seek connections between this tragedy and my real life, but I can't help it. My mom's neighbor can't get a hold of her son, a master's student in engineering. My brother can't reach some of his friends. They're probably fine. My mom says phone lines are down because of the high winds. But the uncertainties, the temporary absences .... I don't know.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 11:31 AM on April 16, 2007


mathowie: Are there any details on the bomb threat from last week?

Nothing was found after either of last week's bomb threats. There's currently a $5,000 reward out for any information leading to the conviction of the person responsible, but no leads have been announced as of yet. As far as I know, neither of the bomb threats involved the buildings where today's shootings took place. I would not be surprised if the incidents are unrelated.

I have heard from students that one of the victims at the residence hall was the gunman's girlfriend... but that could be total BS, who knows.
posted by purplemonkie at 11:31 AM on April 16, 2007


Direct link to .mp3 of President Steger reading his statement to the press.
posted by phaedon at 11:32 AM on April 16, 2007


The ABC News article uses phrases like "the biggest mass shooting in modern American history." Good lord.
posted by Rhomboid at 11:32 AM on April 16, 2007


"As for the "we don't have shootings in the UK" part, I've talked to one paramedic who said they spend a lot of time in casualty pulling pieces of broken pint glass out of faces."


The difference is that you're not likely to have someone go on a 30+ fatality pint glass rampage.
posted by stenseng at 11:34 AM on April 16, 2007 [14 favorites has favorites]


This is totally senseless. It leaves me horrified and speachless. I can't imagine the trauma those students are going through.
posted by willthethrill at 11:35 AM on April 16, 2007


I don't understand the whole concept of "politicizing" something. Everything is politicized. Everything occurs within a political context, is affected by politics, and affects politics. Whenever someone writes "Let's not politicize this" I see "Let's decontextualize this and pretend that it happened in a vaccum so as not to make anyone feel bad."
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:35 AM on April 16, 2007 [10 favorites has favorites]


It's being reported that the killer had a DAO-12. That's about as controlled as guns get in this country -- class 2 destructive device. Most states won't even allow civilians to own them, and the Feds require registration for those that do. On top of that, Virginia bans shotguns with a barrel length of less than 18 inches (the DAO-12 comes in 12 and 14 inch configurations).

I'm not gonna bother to argue, here, so take from that what you will.
posted by vorfeed at 11:35 AM on April 16, 2007


Please take the debating gun control debate here.
posted by drezdn at 11:36 AM on April 16, 2007


.

One of the last fond memories I have (or had) from my brief time at Tech was buying a bunch of Nerf guns with the guys in my hall and running around the dorm shooting each other. Jesus fucking christ.
posted by Espy Gillespie at 11:36 AM on April 16, 2007


Move your gun control talk over here. I'll be removing additional new gun control talk from this thread.
posted by mathowie at 11:36 AM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


Artw: go to the meta talk thread if you want to debate.
posted by delmoi at 11:36 AM on April 16, 2007


"I meant shooting deaths, as opposed to bombs. I guess I wasn't that clear."

Well, there are some pretty brutal massacres, like the Mountain Meadows massacre of 1857, in which 120 people were killed by a small band of Mormons. If we're counting only individuals (which would technically exclude Columbine), I think the previous record in the US was the postal killings of 1986, at 14.
posted by klangklangston at 11:37 AM on April 16, 2007


31 confirmed dead per AP.
posted by deborah at 11:37 AM on April 16, 2007


It's being reported that the killer had a DAO-12.

Interesting... because when I watch the cell-phone video, I thought the shots sounded like a shotgun, but assumed it wasn't because of the number of shots and their rate of speed.
posted by Witty at 11:38 AM on April 16, 2007


After the second bomb threat, they dragged all the staff and faculty from the three buildings affected (as noted, not the same ones in which the shootings occurred, but they are all related to the Engineering school) to the main auditorium and showed us the threat note to see if there was any recognition. That was last Friday. I don't know if anything came from that, but a couple of things including the timing make me assume it is related.
posted by daveadams at 11:38 AM on April 16, 2007


klangklangston:I think the previous record in the US was the postal killings of 1986, at 14.

Apparently, it was The Luby's Massacre.
posted by drezdn at 11:40 AM on April 16, 2007


Detailed map of Virginia Tech shootings
posted by kirkaracha at 11:40 AM on April 16, 2007


Thank you, mathowie.
posted by taosbat at 11:41 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


daveadams, I didn't realize those other buildings were related to the Engineering school. I guess that's what I get for isolating myself in my little biochemistry bubble. Maybe there is a tie after all.
posted by purplemonkie at 11:41 AM on April 16, 2007


The ABC News article uses phrases like "the biggest mass shooting in modern American history." Good lord.

yes. they tend to do things like that. it makes people shake thier heads and say "Good lord." of course, since "modern American history" is a vague and non-specific designator, the hyperbole tends to go unchallenged. fucking media hos. real pieces of shit.
posted by quonsar at 11:43 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


.
posted by ba3r at 11:44 AM on April 16, 2007


Where is the cellphone video? And has the shooter been identified?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:44 AM on April 16, 2007


I was in McBryde Hall (in room 129, which is sort of in the basement) when this happened. McBryde is two buildings over from Norris, where most of the shootings took place. Being in the basement, I didn't hear anything. But then again, I didn't know anything about it at all until one of my friends checked his email on his laptop and got:
Subject: Shooting on Campus

A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating.

The university community is urged to be cautious and are asked to contact Virginia Tech Police if you observe anything suspicious or with information on the case. Contact Virginia Tech Police at 231-6411

Stay attuned to the www.vt.edu. We will post as soon as we have more information.
That was at 9:26. Then, at 9:50, we got:
Subject: PLease stay put

A gunman is loose on campus. Stay in buildings until further notice. Stay away from all windows
And again, at 10:16:
Subject: All Classes Cancelled; Stay where you are

Virginia Tech has canceled all classes. Those on campus are asked to remain where there are, lock their doors and stay away from windows. Persons off campus are asked not to come to campus.
Other than these warnings, we had no idea what was going on. People crowded up into the stairwells to try to see, but cops that were stationed at the doors weren't letting people near the windows, let alone outside. So we just sat and waited. The Tech website was down the whole time -- people with laptops got their info from CNN and MSNBC. Eventually, we were sort of herded into one of the lecture halls where the projector was set hooked up to a TV. Local news was reporting "1 dead, 1 or 2 injured", but that local hospitals were full, and they were having problems medevac-ing people to Roanoake because of the winds.

Which was weird, because to me, a couple injured doesn't seem like it would fill hospitals. But there were 10 ambulances dispatched, according to what we saw, and that still wasn't enough. Some guys in the room talked about friends they were chatting with online who saw people being loaded onto stretchers, professors covered with blood. Everyone was confused. I, personally, was trying to get in touch with people on my cell and most of the calls I tried to make didn't go through.

Eventually, a couple of police clad in full body armor with assault rifles came into the room. "Everbody listen up," one said. "If you live on campus, get straight to your dorm. If you live off campus, just get the hell out of here." So I went. My girlfriend eventually picked me up at a shopping center nearby, and we went back to my apartment where she had, thank God, spent the night (she lives on campus).

And that's where we were hit with the figure of over twenty people dead.

My two cents.
posted by malthas at 11:45 AM on April 16, 2007 [27 favorites has favorites]


Where is the cellphone video?

CNN's frontpage, under "I-Report: Gunshots captured on a cell phone".

And has the shooter been identified?

I believe he's been confirmed dead.
posted by Witty at 11:47 AM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by elfgirl at 11:47 AM on April 16, 2007


yes. they tend to do things like that. it makes people shake thier heads and say "Good lord." of course, since "modern American history" is a vague and non-specific designator, the hyperbole tends to go unchallenged. fucking media hos. real pieces of shit.

What's with the hostility at this, quonsar? I already noted in a link above, this is in fact true. Outside of war, this is the deadliest gun-related killing in history since at least the end of WWII. Why should the news not mention that?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 11:48 AM on April 16, 2007


What would that solve, exactly?

If you were able to read the future and get your child out of the school BEFORE the shooting, well, that's another matter.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero

This school has had what, 2 shootings now? And bomb scares? There is some bad mojo working there and I would no longer pay tuition for her to attend this school. I would make sure she got counseling at home and I would have her take a semester off, possibly involve her in something else like horseback riding or volunteer work or art class. Having a change of atmosphere would not be a bad thing. Who will be able to walk by those buildings and not think about the shootings for years to come?

Whenever I hear about college kids being murdered I can't help but feel some special sorrow for the parents. You do everything you can to raise your child right, you make sure they study and get good grades, you make sure they stay safe through high school and just when you think it will all pay off, that you have done a good job of parenting and they are in college, it all comes to a horrible end. What was it all for? There is no good time to loose a child, yet somehow I always imagine this as the worst.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:49 AM on April 16, 2007


Cell phone video
posted by jaimev at 11:49 AM on April 16, 2007


[shrug] i had a little spare hostility on hand, and i'm always willing to share it with the media types.
posted by quonsar at 11:50 AM on April 16, 2007


Damn malthas. Thanks for sharing; that's messed up.
posted by knave at 11:50 AM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy - Shooting #1 (last year?), if I'm not mistaken, was by an escaped convict... not quite the same here, as in it wasn't directly linked to campus violence, and therefore, a fair comparison.
posted by Witty at 11:52 AM on April 16, 2007


......................
posted by IronLizard at 11:52 AM on April 16, 2007


Where is the cellphone video?

Cellphone video

Also, the roanoke.com page was recently updated with this account:
2:20 p.m.

One man was hanging out the window of a Norris Hall classroom when the gunman entered, according to freshman Douglas Cobb.

Cobb said that Jake Grohs, the resident assistant for the fourth floor of Peddrew-Yates residence hall, told him he climbed out the window of an engineering class as the gunman apparently made his way from room to room in Norris.

"He was in the room next door to the shooting" and decided to try climbing out the second-story window, Cobb said. "He was hanging out the window when the person came in" and heard people being shot, Cobb said. He said that four of six people who were in the room at that time where shot.

Grohs jumped out the window onto a hill and is OK, Cobb said.

Cobb and other friends showed up at the Inn at Virginia Tech this afternoon to try to get information about a missing friend.

posted by Rhomboid at 11:53 AM on April 16, 2007


*an unfair (sorry)
posted by Witty at 11:53 AM on April 16, 2007


You can understand Columbine, two kids marginalized and mistreated for being outcasts coming back to rain pain on their tormentors.

College is a completely night and day difference from the perverse social system that bred that incident. What could have driven this incident?
posted by dr_dank at 11:54 AM on April 16, 2007


daveadams, I didn't realize those other buildings were related to the Engineering school.

I didn't really either but some faculty mentioned it last Friday. Whittemore, Torgersen, and Durham apparently all have Engineering ... stuff--classes? offices? in them. And Norris, too.
posted by daveadams at 11:54 AM on April 16, 2007


Where is the cellphone video?

It's over at cnn.com and they've been showing it on tv, nothing special just police approaching a building and the sound of gunfire. I couldn't help but think it was kind of stupid to film so close to a police shoot out, considering how a cell phone might be mistaken for a hand gun.
posted by bobo123 at 11:54 AM on April 16, 2007


malthas, daveadams, purplemonkey, idb and everyone else with a connection to VN present or past, my heartfelt condolence and sorrow for what you are going through
posted by madamjujujive at 11:55 AM on April 16, 2007


Whittemore is the Electrical and Computer Engineering building, Torgersen is a sort of general technology building with a lot of lecture halls, and Durham is the Industrial Systems Engineering building.
posted by malthas at 11:58 AM on April 16, 2007


This school has had what, 2 shootings now?

To be fair the first one (first day of classes last August) was an escaped convict, not a student or anyone associated with the university.
posted by daveadams at 11:59 AM on April 16, 2007


I have a friend who is an engineering student at Virginia Tech. I have not been able to get ahold of him.

I know such a thing probably does not exist yet, but is there a list of the dead and wounded available anywhere?
posted by kyrademon at 11:59 AM on April 16, 2007


kyrademon: Jeez, I wish there was. Most of the people I know are accounted for, but I'm still concerned.
posted by malthas at 12:02 PM on April 16, 2007


I'm really having a hard time with the connection between Norris and WAJ. The walk between those buildings is a haul, plain and simple. 15-20 minutes, easy.

And my heart is breaking for all of those kids, families, and faculty at Tech. I spent a semester down there and left because it wasn't the school for me, but I lived in AJ and had classes in Norris, so this is hitting a little close to home.

Nothing -- I mean, nothing -- happens in Blacksburg aside from the occasional (every 12 years or so) uproar over an escaped convict, so this is just shocking and heartbreaking.
posted by wildeepdotorg at 12:03 PM on April 16, 2007


A horrible tragedy.
posted by FunkyHelix at 12:05 PM on April 16, 2007


I know such a thing probably does not exist yet, but is there a list of the dead and wounded available anywhere?

I find it highly doubtful something like that will be available until families are notified first.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 12:05 PM on April 16, 2007


Condolences to anyone here connected to this terrible tragedy.
posted by twistedonion at 12:06 PM on April 16, 2007


Considering the distance could there have been two separate incidents/people and the timing was just really really wacked?
posted by edgeways at 12:07 PM on April 16, 2007


Update from here:
The mass media are reporting Norris Hall as an "Engineering Building." This is not the case. Engineering does have offices and classes in Norris Hall, but it also houses classes for various other departments from Political Science to Business.

High winds have grounded helicopters from Duke, UVA, and Richmond. While this has made the transport of victims more difficult, it has not denied EMTs access to life-saving equipment. Ambulances have served to supply necessary equipment without incident.

The shooting is being reported as the most lethal school massacre in US history. This is incorrect. This is the most lethal school shooting in US history; but the 1927 Bath School Disaster was a bombing which killed 45 people and injured 58. This is not to detract from the horrific magnitude of today's shooting but simply to maintain historical accuracy.

posted by Rhomboid at 12:07 PM on April 16, 2007


Might an armed student or professor been able to end this before 50 some people were shot?

The killer was using a weapon rarely seen outside of Resident Evil and was evidently expert in its use. I do not give our hypothetical professor good odds.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:08 PM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


College is a completely night and day difference from the perverse social system that bred that incident. What could have driven this incident?

It sounds (to me) that the guy was upset with an RA who wouldn't let him see his girlfriend. So he shot the RA and then went on a rampage. Maybe he had also been kicked out of school? No one really knows, but we'll learn more soon, I imagine.
posted by delmoi at 12:09 PM on April 16, 2007


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
posted by nasreddin at 12:13 PM on April 16, 2007


the 2 hour gap is mystifying.
posted by andywolf at 12:16 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


Man, how weird to present the cell video as an "i-Reporter" for CNN? Funny how that student wasn't employed as an iReporter (I prefer the Apple-esque form) prior to this morning.
posted by klangklangston at 12:17 PM on April 16, 2007


Livejournal of a current VT student.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 12:17 PM on April 16, 2007


President Bush will be issuing a statement at 4:15pm Eastern.
posted by phaedon at 12:19 PM on April 16, 2007


For those questioning the rate of fire in the video, the DAO-12 is a semi-auto shotgun.
posted by Big_B at 12:19 PM on April 16, 2007


This might not be appropriate, but this situation that happened today is as close to Iraq as we can get. I mean, these sorts of shootings happen everyday over there.

The world's so messed up.
posted by j-urb at 12:20 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Man, how weird to present the cell video as an "i-Reporter" for CNN?

Why not just call it what it is? Terror Porn.
posted by psmealey at 12:21 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


President Bush will be issuing a statement at 4:15pm Eastern.

he's going to invade iran in retaliation.
posted by quonsar at 12:23 PM on April 16, 2007 [12 favorites has favorites]


posted by drezdn Apparently, it was The Luby's Massacre.

Actually, I think it was the McMassacre.
posted by fandango_matt at 12:23 PM on April 16, 2007


Why not just call it what it is? Terror Porn.

Yep. Another newscaster's wet dream come true. I know it's hard, but turn off the coverage of this right now. What good is it doing for you to wallow? Just get up and do something else.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:24 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


Whoops, no.
posted by fandango_matt at 12:26 PM on April 16, 2007


Regarding the DAO-12 business, it's worth noting that the only source for that was an unattributed claim in a Wikipedia article, which has since been removed.

The first time I loaded the Wikipedia article, it said that over 200 people were killed, so I wouldn't put much faith in the (very unlikely) DAO-12 claim either.
posted by designbot at 12:31 PM on April 16, 2007


Another livejournal. It sounds like students on campus are pretty frustrated with the way this was handled.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 12:33 PM on April 16, 2007


It sounds like students on campus are pretty frustrated with the way this was handled.

I'm sure it's standard procedure and I just don't understand it, but it was really weird to see the university's website (according to reports) saying there was a gunman loose on campus - stay put where you are. Basically, be a sitting duck.

I'm sure someone's reply is something about keeping calm and order, but I'm sorry, it just sounds like madness to me.
posted by cashman at 12:39 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


For those of us with connections to VT and Blacksburg, it's impossible to just do something else. Today I've watched my hometown turned into a carnival of death and yes, a newscaster's wet dream. How do I look away?

.
posted by junkbox at 12:39 PM on April 16, 2007


“ ‘He was in the room next door to the shooting’ and decided to try climbing out the second-story window, Cobb said. ‘He was hanging out the window when the person came in’ and heard people being shot, Cobb said. He said that four of six people who were in the room at that time where shot.”

That is a terrifying story. I feel certain that, were I in this person's position, I'd have horrible survivor's guilt, at least eventually. Alternatively, and based upon a past experience, I have a strong intuition that in this or similar situations I'd feel obligated to try to help the people around me first, knowing that I'd be dooming myself. The past situation was when I was young (and resolved without anyone being hurt) and I don't recall feeling anything but coldly rational. However, imagining myself in such a situation now, I believe I'd act the same but feel a deep and acute kind of sorrow, maybe self-pity, that I was probably about to die. Being much older, I'm well aware of my mortality now. Maybe that means I'd just save myself. I don't know.

Hearing the shooter next door and knowing he was on his way is easily one of the most terrifying things I can imagine.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:40 PM on April 16, 2007


Let's leave the gun control debate to the talking heads who are going to shout at each other all week about it.

Shouting heads, then?
posted by Foosnark at 12:45 PM on April 16, 2007


so sad
posted by Flood at 12:47 PM on April 16, 2007


I'm sure someone's reply is something about keeping calm and order, but I'm sorry, it just sounds like madness to me.

I don't have alink for this i'm afraid, but I'm sure at some point I'm sure I saw a study which showed that in the event of a burning building/aircraft (I forget which) everyone panicing and running like hell saved more people than the calm, orderly exit.

Weirld I haven't heard this idea talked about much since.
posted by Artw at 12:50 PM on April 16, 2007


I'm sure it's standard procedure and I just don't understand it, but it was really weird to see the university's website (according to reports) saying there was a gunman loose on campus - stay put where you are. Basically, be a sitting duck.

It is safer. You can lock the doors. You can put walls between you and the gunman. If he's out for prey, give him less prey to shoot.

The only other alternative is the herd instinct (ordering everyone to run for their lives), and that's as bad as a classroom killing, only with trampling and screaming.

I'm sure someone's reply is something about keeping calm and order, but I'm sorry, it just sounds like madness to me.

Where this failed was VT not locking doors on buildings during those two hours and preparing an orderly evacuation while they tracked the killer. Even then, he could have gone to a Denny's and opened fire.
posted by dw at 12:50 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by avriette at 12:54 PM on April 16, 2007


From the foxnews.com article:
Virginia Tech student Blake Harrison said he was on his way to class near Norris Hall when he saw chaos.

"This teacher comes flying out of Norris, he's bleeding from his arm or his shoulder ... all these students were coming out of Norris trying to take shelter in Randolph [Hall]. All these kids were freaked out," Harrison said.

The students and faculty were barricading themselves in their classrooms after what one person described as an Asian male wearing a vest opened fire.

The shooter was "wearing a vest covered in clips was just unloading on their door, going from classroom to classroom … they said it never seemed like it was going to stop and there was just blood all over," Harrison said.

posted by Rhomboid at 12:54 PM on April 16, 2007


From NY Times:
The identification of the gunman was proving difficult because the suspected shooter did not have identification among his effects and was further complicated because of the severity of an apparently self-inflicted wound to the head, according to a federal law enforcement official.
I'm guessing one of his weapons was more than just a handgun.
posted by mazola at 12:55 PM on April 16, 2007


This is sickening, and my heart goes out to anyone involved.

.
posted by Drexen at 12:56 PM on April 16, 2007


odinsdream writes "I'm not suggesting martial law. I'm suggesting extreme vigilance - i.e., locking all external and internal doors, limiting movement of individuals between locations, and ensuring that those who are in safe locations remain safe."

But why? There was no apparent immediate indication that this would escalate after the first incident. The guy might have fled to the country and the school would have been on lock down for an indeterminate period.

Secret Life of Gravy writes "This school has had what, 2 shootings now? And bomb scares? There is some bad mojo working there and I would no longer pay tuition for her to attend this school."

Bomb threats happen all the time (anyone with access to a pay phone or throw away internet email can institute one), rarely are they more than that.
posted by Mitheral at 12:57 PM on April 16, 2007


This is such a tragedy. My guts literally hurt. I can't imagine the pain the families are going to be dealing with. My god.
posted by hojoki at 12:59 PM on April 16, 2007


The DAO-12 sounds far-fetched, but then again, so does the idea that he did all of this with a .22 and a nine. Ultimately, though, it doesn't much matter how he did it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:03 PM on April 16, 2007


Either MSNBC or CNN has been carrying a telephone interview with a sophomore biology major who was shot through the upper arm. He sounded calm and self possessed. He said the shooter was a college aged Oriental guy who just came in and stared shooting, fired around a dozen rounds and then left. Then that student and at least one other guy shut the door and held it with their feet so the shooter couldn’t get back in. The shooter tried to push the door back open and fired several shots through it.
posted by Huplescat at 1:03 PM on April 16, 2007


A friend just pointed out to me that today is Yom Hashoah, aka Holocaust Remembrance Day. Not implying there's a connection, especially with the limited info we have, but I just thought I'd toss that in the pot. I wonder how much of the student body at VT is Jewish.
posted by brundlefly at 1:04 PM on April 16, 2007


you know, even as a general advocate for gun control, I have to side with the folks who say that this is not the best time to talk about it.

it would be like following a tragic, shocking terrorist attack with an immediate demand for Congressional lawmakers to pass sweeping new laws revising the national security apparatus and to 'do something about it'. We can, of course, rely on lawmakers to maintain a cool and rational level of debate in the immediate aftermath; and produce a law that is both effective and just.

... or not, as the case often is.
posted by bl1nk at 1:05 PM on April 16, 2007


I don't have anything informational to add. I just wanted to say my heart goes out to the 31 (and sadly, possibly more) families affected, not to mention the students who may have escaped physically unharmed, but surely emotionally distressed...

This is tragic...

.
posted by twiggy at 1:05 PM on April 16, 2007


Suddenly the fact that my alma mater's cops had M-16s in their vehicles bothers me not at all.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:08 PM on April 16, 2007


everyone panicing and running like hell saved more people than the calm, orderly exit

You may be thinking of this article: panic: myth or reality? In general, people don't actually panic. (For example, I recall being present at a very bad car accident. Most people just milled around as if they felt their presence could help, but didn't actually do much. Nobody entered anything resembling a panic. One victim was badly injured but in quiet shock. Another was unconscious.

I've since learned that in the absence of anyone doing anything, anybody can pretty much take control of these situations. And the classic "go boil some water" for the befuddled husband in a maternity crisis has close resemblance to the advice to make specific requests, e.g. not "somebody call 911" but "you, I need you to call 911 and have them send an ambulance right away".

Panic is a factor in stampedes and tramplings, from E2 to Coconut Grove to the hajj, but probably less important than the simple fact of having enough room for traffic flow.

As for the University, I'm not sure what specific policy could have prevented this, but telling people to stay put was not the best advice. There will be many lawsuits.
posted by dhartung at 1:09 PM on April 16, 2007


Washington Post chat with the executive editor of Planet Blacksburg, a news site run by Virginia Tech students.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:11 PM on April 16, 2007


I don't have alink for this i'm afraid, but I'm sure at some point I'm sure I saw a study which showed that in the event of a burning building/aircraft (I forget which) everyone panicing and running like hell saved more people than the calm, orderly exit.

The people who survived on 9/11 were the ones who ran for it, not the ones who sat around waiting for rescue.
posted by delmoi at 1:12 PM on April 16, 2007


so does the idea that he did all of this with a .22 and a nine

Not at all. 50 casualties? With plentiful ammunition, plenty of time in an unarmed and sufficiently dense cluster of victims all trapped in a confined space? Plus ensuing panic and some firearms training it is HIGHLY likely and easily accomplished. Even with a single 9mm. Hell. A chainsaw.
posted by tkchrist at 1:14 PM on April 16, 2007


Suddenly the fact that my alma mater's cops had M-16s in their vehicles bothers me not at all.

Uh. How do we know some of these casualties were NOT caused by cops, too?
posted by tkchrist at 1:15 PM on April 16, 2007


What advice would have been better than "stay put" once the shooting had started? How would the scores of police been able to handle hundreds or thousands of people trying to flee campus while they were still getting people to the scene and trying to get access to the building?
posted by daveadams at 1:17 PM on April 16, 2007


Oh, thank God, Bush is going to do everything he can. Floodwaters on the campus of VT in 5.....4......3......
posted by nevercalm at 1:17 PM on April 16, 2007


I've often wondered what I would do if confronted with a situation like this. I remember getting a group lecture at school from some cops saying "don't be a hero", "comply with the gunman" etc. but these days you really got to wonder about that kind of logic. Seems like either action or inaction can get you killed. If this ever happens when I'm around I'm thinking the best thing to do is grab the heaviest object you can pick up, charge, and hope for the best.
posted by well_balanced at 1:18 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


What advice would have been better than "stay put" once the shooting had started?

"Blockade your doors with furnishings. Stay away from windows and doors. Stay low. If you hear shots call this number and report where you are."

Though I would have still ran like a mother fucker the second I heard shots.
posted by tkchrist at 1:19 PM on April 16, 2007


Not at all. 50 casualties? With plentiful ammunition, plenty of time in an unarmed and sufficiently dense cluster of victims all trapped in a confined space? Plus ensuing panic and some firearms training it is HIGHLY likely and easily accomplished. Even with a single 9mm. Hell. A chainsaw.

Well, it's the confined space part that catches me, because this is a BIG campus. Lots of places to run and hide. These are the things that kept me reloading these stories for a while, because it's like, "What the fuck? HOW the fuck?" I guess it's a way of trying to make sense of it. But there isn't any sense to be found, whatever the fucker did it clearly worked, and...well, yeah. There you have it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:20 PM on April 16, 2007


I see on that NBC that the killer chained shut the doors of the building in which he did most of the shooting.
posted by washburn at 1:20 PM on April 16, 2007


Alas, there's really nothing to say.
posted by MarshallPoe at 1:22 PM on April 16, 2007


Newsvine's update 19 says:
Live reports indicate that the Virginia Tech's ROTC has been mobilized.

Those kids must be scared shitless. My heart goes out to all those affected.
posted by CiaoMela at 1:27 PM on April 16, 2007


Just flipped on the TV to see CNN with split screen: student video on one side of the screen and had a counter on the other side of the audible shots heard on the video, like a score card. What fucking ghouls.
posted by tula at 1:27 PM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


I see on that NBC that the killer chained shut the doors of the building in which he did most of the shooting.

Yup.

And even if he did not bar doors most class rooms only have two doors at the most.

So. Stand in the doorway and shoot. 30-60 kids per class? 9 round clip. Two semi-auto pistols? Close range? TWO FUCKING HOURS OF PRACTICE! And a guy who was assuming he wasn't getting out alive anyway?

30 kills could be on the low end of the spectrum.
posted by tkchrist at 1:31 PM on April 16, 2007


I have a former student who goes there. Hope she's safe.

And yeah, not locking the campus down after the first shooting is ridiculous.

Fwiw, Tech has an interesting mix of students. It's a relatively rural part of the state, where familiarity with guns and hunting would be fairly common. At the same time, it's kind of a magnet for more affluent, computer-science types from the DC suburbs.

This fuck killed over 30 people. If this wasn't premeditated, and he doesn't have a police or military background, I don't see how the hell he did as much damage as he did. Unbelievable.
posted by bardic at 1:33 PM on April 16, 2007


I saw that too, tula. No more tv news for me. I'm sure CNN will be running that clip on a loop for the next two days.
posted by maryh at 1:34 PM on April 16, 2007


.

...is all I can say right now.

My heart and prayers go to the friends and family of those who have fallen, those who were wounded and those who were witnesses.
posted by seawallrunner at 1:34 PM on April 16, 2007


daveadams: What advice would have been better than "stay put" once the shooting had started?

I strongly agree. The problem was not in the fact that people were told to stay put, but in the fact that this announcement -- along with orders to lock down all campus buildings -- came over two hours after the first shootings took place. When I heard there had been a shooting my instinct was to get home, and I felt a little anxious being 'trapped' in my building. But a huge campus full of people all trying to get home at the same time makes for quite a mess and is not exactly conducive to tracking down an a gunman that is still at large.

The first incident happened early enough that if VT had been shut down immediately rather than two hours later, many students, staff, and faculty would not even have been on campus yet.
posted by purplemonkie at 1:34 PM on April 16, 2007


Yeah, the two-hour gap is egregious.

I remember my college dorm, freshman year. It was a shithole. It had puke green cynder block walls. It also had a fairly thick wooden door and lock, and nobody would get in there if they didn't want to. Even if I didn't barricade it, which I would have.

Letting hundreds of these kids go to classrooms together, after a shooting has already taken place on campus? Disaster.
posted by bardic at 1:39 PM on April 16, 2007


So is the implication here that the gunman shot somebody on the south side of campus, and in the course of an hour or so, made it to the north side of campus, and shut himself inside a hall - and only then did the campus police in fact issue an alert?
posted by phaedon at 1:45 PM on April 16, 2007


Flickr group.
posted by brittney at 1:46 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Cause life ain't hard enough so we need this kind of shit to make it really real.
Like people don't live with bad luck, but that ain't enough is it?
Cause people don't get kicked in the teeth on this god damned planet from dawn to dawn already, so pour a bunch of salt in the wound.

Any chance we can stop killing each other? Since life is in point of fact, hard enough.
posted by nola at 1:47 PM on April 16, 2007


33 confirmed dead according to MSNBC. Shooter thought to be Asian male in his 20's, but can't be identified as of now due to head trauma. Fingerprints haven't matched anything yet, which could mean he has no previous record.

When they do identify the guy, they'll want to check his house. His parents and siblings might possibly be dead as well.

Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by bardic at 1:47 PM on April 16, 2007


Yeah, the two-hour gap is egregious.

But why would you assume there would be any additional shooting after the first event? To any police investigating (especially if the estranged boyfriend angle is true and was known) it must have seemed like the action was over. Yes, you had a shooter at large, but what are the chances he then goes out and shoots innocents after a fairly significant delay?
posted by Rock Steady at 1:47 PM on April 16, 2007


I am just so sad and infuriated at every level of my being. I caught a glance of the anti-gun-control argument already being spin about this on a slightly right blog and my blood started boiling.
posted by spiderwire at 1:47 PM on April 16, 2007


This just cements my opinion of most school administrators being completely useless drains on the education system. It is horrifying that the police didn't do anything to shut down the campus after two hours.

This admin giving the news conference now is explaining that two hour gap by saying that thousands of commuters were already on the way to school. "Where do you keep them safe?" I have a good idea: NOT ON A CAMPUS WHERE A SHOOTER IS RUNNING LOOSE! Jeez.
posted by MegoSteve at 1:50 PM on April 16, 2007


Letting hundreds of these kids go to classrooms together, after a shooting has already taken place on campus? Disaster.

I thought so at first, but I looked up the number of students they have - just south of 30,000. That'd be like locking down a medium-sized town.
posted by Mitrovarr at 1:52 PM on April 16, 2007


But why would you assume there would be any additional shooting after the first event?

You ALWAYS assume that if you have not identified the shooter - or - have witnesses that testify to the shooter leaving the scene.
posted by tkchrist at 1:52 PM on April 16, 2007


>You can lock the doors. You can put walls between you and the gunman.

That's exactly how one group of students got away according to CNN. They barred the door with a table. The gunman shot through it. Then reloaded, then shot again. Became frustrated and walked to a different classroom.
posted by damn dirty ape at 1:53 PM on April 16, 2007


20/20 hindsight. Is this where we start assigning blame now?
posted by edgeways at 1:55 PM on April 16, 2007



I thought so at first, but I looked up the number of students they have - just south of 30,000. That'd be like locking down a medium-sized town.

You close the parking lots. You put up highway flares on every road to campus you have the State Patrol tell radio stations put out EBS alerting travelers to NOT come to campus. All of that can be coordinated in half an hour.
posted by tkchrist at 1:55 PM on April 16, 2007


But why would you assume there would be any additional shooting after the first event?

Because they didn't capture and/or kill the 7:15 AM shooter.

but what are the chances he then goes out and shoots innocents after a fairly significant delay?

You're kidding, right?
posted by bardic at 1:55 PM on April 16, 2007


20/20 hindsight. Is this where we start assigning blame now?

Who is responsible for YOUR kids when they are at school?
posted by tkchrist at 1:56 PM on April 16, 2007


posted by nola Any chance we can stop killing each other?

Sorry, but killing each other has been approved by the sacred texts and our elected leaders.
posted by fandango_matt at 1:57 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


20/20 hindsight. Is this where we start assigning blame now?

Yes.
posted by MegoSteve at 1:57 PM on April 16, 2007


phaedon: So is the implication here that the gunman shot somebody on the south side of campus, and in the course of an hour or so, made it to the north side of campus, and shut himself inside a hall - and only then did the campus police in fact issue an alert?

The first shooting took place at about 7:15 AM. I received the first announcement, which simply stated that there had been a shooting and that people should "be cautious," at 9:26 AM. My understanding is that the second shootings had already occurred at this point. Regardless, it was not until 9:50 that we were told to "stay put" until further notice, and not until 10:16 that classes were cancelled. At 12:13, employees were told to evacuate. This is all based on the timestamps on the emails sitting in my in box at the moment.
posted by purplemonkie at 2:02 PM on April 16, 2007


20/20 hindsight. Is this where we start assigning blame now?

How can we do that if we don't even fully know what happened? Maybe we should wait until we have better view of all of the facts? Just asking....
posted by Durwood at 2:03 PM on April 16, 2007


Who is responsible for YOUR kids when they are at school?

This isn't high school. This is a college. These are adults.

Colleges are not and should not be run like a high school. Think more like what Lucent should do if there was a shooting at one of their big campuses in NJ.
posted by gregvr at 2:03 PM on April 16, 2007


Is this where we start assigning blame now?

This is the world we live in. I think of it as being prepared for the next time, to be completely honest.

As for a "lock-down" being too tough, look -- this guy wanted blood, and he would have got it regardless. But why give him 30 kids clumped together in a classroom?

It's a big campus, with a lot of people. But there's high percentage of commuters as well, who were nowhere near the place. Apparently, they weren't told to stay away. Not right away at least. That's stupid.
posted by bardic at 2:08 PM on April 16, 2007


Wow. 100 Iraqis killed in a day, it gets a mention. 30+ Americans die in one freak tragedy and you actually get Bush to address it. Just wow. Oddly enough, 40,000 Americans die in traffic accidents alone every year, which surely amounts to more than 30 a day. But of course, I won't interrupt the jerk-off. Sexy tragedies > tragedies that require thought and have no media angle.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 2:10 PM on April 16, 2007 [8 favorites has favorites]


The 1991 Gang Lu massacre at the University of Iowa took place in the building where I currently work and the engineering building next door. My mother was in the building at the time; one of her good friends was killed.

Last year, a phD student in the Chemistry department issued some threats against faculty members. University administrators shut down the entire campus for the day.

I'm sure there was a lot of "it can't happen here" going on in the minds of the Virginia Tech administrators, after the first shooting. All I can say is, I bet it will never happen there again.
posted by rockabilly_pete at 2:11 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by about_time at 2:12 PM on April 16, 2007


Gnostic, it is worth pointing out that...

a) Iraq is currently a war zone, and so nobody is in the least bit surprised when deaths occur (no matter how wrongful each one might be);

b) When people drive, they knowingly take on a certain amount of risk, just like when they fly -- and besides, those deaths are accidents or due to negligence for the most part;

c) These deaths happened in a University. Not a war zone, where deaths are expected, and not in a car, where a certain amount of risk is knowingly taken on. And they were intentional deaths.

So apples, oranges, and bananas, is what I'm saying.

Also:

.
posted by davejay at 2:14 PM on April 16, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]



It is easy to look at this now and say they did it wrong, what if the fellow had gotten on top of a roof and picked off people in the open as they ran home? Or waded trough the crowd doing the same thing... things CAN ALWAYS be handled better, but it doesn't mean they where handled badly

Where does it end? the fellow could have wandered into the nearby residential neighborhoods. Should they have told everyone at home to run too? At what radius? A poster above said it was a 15 - 20 min walk from the initial building to the next, and he wasn't heard of for two hours, should they have drawn a circle 2 hours wide and told everybody to run and or barricade themselves within that circle? There where just too many variables for there to be a perfect solution.
I don't have the answer, and I understand where this frustration and anger is coming from, but I think it would be wise to wait till the dust settles and there is a comprehensive evaluation before calling for blood.
posted by edgeways at 2:15 PM on April 16, 2007


31 dead in the classrooms, 2 dead in the dorm. Was it the same killer? Maybe, but, according to the Roanoke Times rolling article:

Steger [VPI president] also said it is not confirmed that the shootings in Norris Hall, which killed 31 and wounded 15, are linked to the shootings two hours earlier in West Ambler Johnson Hall, where two people died. Tech officials said they could not say a single shooter was to blame in both instances, but said there is no search for additional suspects. No one is in custody in connection to the shootings, officials said.

Tech police Chief Wendell Flinchum said the shooter shot himself inside Norris Hall. Officials have not named the shooter, or described him beyond saying he was male.

Tech officials defended their decision to continue classes after the first shootings, saying their information at the time indicated that it was an isolated incident and that the shooter left campus.
posted by CCBC at 2:15 PM on April 16, 2007


Crass, Gnostic Novelist. Very crass.

It's not a "sexy" tragedy. It's one that hits close to people we know. It's shocking and unexpected and the result of astonishing malice.

What is wrong with you?
posted by felix betachat at 2:16 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


This isn't high school. This is a college. These are adults.

Please. So. It's every man for himself then?

Okay. if we are talking about adults then AS an adult I have then have certain expectations for the people who run the facility I pay for. If there is a fire they have extinguishers. Smoke detectors. Fire escapes. Right? Somebody tells me what to DO if there is fire. We have fire drills, right?

While fires are far more common that Spree Shooters, the point is you have a plan. You have people responsible for that plan.

For fucks sake I thought of a dozen things that could have been done in 30 seconds just sitting here that would have saved a couple of lives.

There are PAID professional campus safety officers. There is PAID profession administration. There are PAID professional LEOs.

I will tell you what the issue is. It's this. Nobody felt they had the responsibility OR the authority to what needed to be done. NOT that there was "nothing" that could have been done.
posted by tkchrist at 2:16 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Yeah, Gnostic Novelist, this is sexy. This is awful, sad, tragic, and if you read the thread, many members are familiar with this place and the people who live/work there. Grow up.
posted by Elmore at 2:18 PM on April 16, 2007


A DAO-12 is basically just a 12 gauge shotgun that will hold 12 rounds. I believe this is a version of the same gun manufactured in the US. If I'm not mistaken only the versions with barrels less than 18 inches would require any sort of special permit under Federal law.
posted by Carbolic at 2:20 PM on April 16, 2007


tkchrist: I look forward to when you rule the world.
posted by mazola at 2:20 PM on April 16, 2007


Salon says: University officials waited two hours to warn campus, students say

The as-yet-unnamed gunman apparently shot and killed a victim on the fourth floor of the West Ambler Johnston dorm at approximately 7:15 a.m., according to the timing of a 911 call to Virginia Tech police. Two hours later, at approximately 9:30 a.m., the same gunman allegedly shot scores of people in Norris Hall, an engineering classroom building across the Virginia Tech campus. But residents of West Ambler Johnston say they were not informed of what had happened in their building until 9:26, when an e-mail was apparently sent to all students telling them that there had been an incident in the dorm. By that time, the gunman may already have been inside Norris Hall.
posted by paddingtonb at 2:21 PM on April 16, 2007


Think more like what Lucent should do if there was a shooting at one of their big campuses in NJ.

Okay. During the WTO riots we "locked" down our building and blocked the entrance and created relay escorts to the parking garage. We made this fucking plan on-the-fly for 70 co-workers.

When there was an earthquake we had a plan.

When a nut blocked the entrance of th building holding a samurai sword we had a plan.

This school had no excuse to take nearly two god damned hours figuring out what to do.
posted by tkchrist at 2:21 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


To those with a connection to VT, my condolences.

.
posted by Nabubrush at 2:22 PM on April 16, 2007


tkchrist writes "You ALWAYS assume that if you have not identified the shooter - or - have witnesses that testify to the shooter leaving the scene."

Of course, it's entirely possible that there were such witnesses. We really don't have that information yet.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:23 PM on April 16, 2007


Can someone please explain to me why this "cellphone video" looks unlike any video recording I've ever seen? Why, for instance, does the video flutter like that? Has is been enhanced in some way?
posted by ColdChef at 2:24 PM on April 16, 2007


Reuters was friendly enough to inform us that the Department of Homeland Security says there's no indication of terrorism, but it will be part of the investigation.

That's good. Cos that was the first thing I thought of. A terrorist attack. And if I wasn't, I am now. Thinking that there's no indication, says DHS. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be. So they'll investigate. That's good.
posted by Wataki at 2:24 PM on April 16, 2007


tkchrist: I look forward to when you rule the world.

Two down 5,999,999,998 more to go. Spread the word.
posted by tkchrist at 2:24 PM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


Please. So. It's every man for himself then?

I didn't say that. I'm just saying that there is a feeling in this thread that "Oh, dear god, why won't someone think of the children?!?"

And all I'm trying to say is that I would expect IDENTICAL BEHAVIOR from the "PAID professional campus safety officers, PAID profession administration, PAID professional LEOs." at a non-educational campus.

...

On review, tkchrist, I agree with everything that you are saying! By calling people adults, I am not saying that it is "every man for himself..."
posted by gregvr at 2:25 PM on April 16, 2007


I'm with you tkchrist. Some school administrators and security people are going to have a hard time looking themselves in the mirror after this. A two hour delay while a gunman is on the loose on campus is criminally negligent. Of course, if it turns out that there were two shooters, that's another matter altogether.
posted by felix betachat at 2:25 PM on April 16, 2007


This is awful, sad, tragic, and if you read the thread, many members are familiar with this place and the people who live/work there. Grow up.

Actually what does growing up have to do with it? Aren't children the ones who get sad at what they are close to while ignoring what they aren't familiar with?
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 2:25 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


.
posted by C.Batt at 2:26 PM on April 16, 2007


I'm a little surprised that this happened nine hours ago and no one has yet identified the shooter. Surely someone recognized him.
posted by mattbucher at 2:27 PM on April 16, 2007


Wataki writes "That's good. Cos that was the first thing I thought of. A terrorist attack. And if I wasn't, I am now."

How was this not a terrorist attack? It's pretty terrifying.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:29 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


Sorry, I meant be more mature. I thought you would understand that.
posted by Elmore at 2:30 PM on April 16, 2007


felix betachat writes "mirror after this. A two hour delay while a gunman is on the loose on campus is criminally negligent. Of course, if it turns out that there were two shooters, that's another matter altogether."

It's also possible that witnesses at the first scene did see the shooter fleeing the campus. It apparently took him two hours to travel between two buildings that are a 20-minute walk apart. It's entirely possible that he had left the campus and returned two hours later for the second shooting spree. If this is what happened, I think it would be reasonable for authorities to assume that he had fled; they would have no reason to expect him to return.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:32 PM on April 16, 2007


. . .enough, 40,000 Americans die in traffic accidents alone every year. . .Gnostic Novelist

The fact you don't know the difference between a car accident and a bullet fired at some one is amazing. Violence , look it up. and on preview you should really just shut up now.
posted by nola at 2:32 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


I work on a campus about the size of Virginia Tech's-- perhaps even a little larger. It takes the better part of an hour to walk the grounds from north to south, almost as long east to west. So I can understand a little bit of what was going through the heads of the Administration: cancelling classes for the day is a huge disruption, they all have to be rescheduled, it's close to the end of term, everybody has meetings to attend, it's year end and budgets need to be worked on, etcetera.

But on the other hand I cannot understand, not even a little bit, the logic that keeps a University campus open after two people have been shot and killed and the gunman is still at large. It fucking boggles my mind. It was 7:15 a.m.-- plenty of time to alert department heads, trigger phone trees for support staff, get the police to set up barriers at the campus entrances, lock down the residences. That's what campus security is for. I'm speechless.
posted by jokeefe at 2:33 PM on April 16, 2007


adipocere writes "Let the healin blaming begin. Video games?"

Saucy Intruder writes "Blame video games, right?"

Jack Thompson is on the scene.
posted by Bugbread at 2:33 PM on April 16, 2007


Hey, Gnostic, am I allowed to be sad about both?
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:35 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


mattbucher: I agree, but I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. A NY Times article explains:

"The identification of the gunman was proving difficult, because the suspected shooter did not have identification among his effects and because of the severity of an apparently self-inflicted wound to the head, according to a federal law enforcement official. He said investigators were trying to trace purchase records for two handguns found near the body."
posted by inoculatedcities at 2:35 PM on April 16, 2007


Gnostic, you are so evolved. Please tell us how you did it.
posted by docpops at 2:36 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


The lack of good communication dispersal strikes me as a big problem at large universities. It's not like high school where there is a heirarchical information structure and PA systems. Professors know just as little as students, if not less, and there are no other liasons to the central administration.

Though completely uncomparable in scope, I was at the University of Washington in 2001 during an almost-serious earthquake that took place in the middle of classes. My professor canceled the class I was in immediately after the shaking stopped, but at that point it was absolutely impossible to find any information, even a "don't worry." And that's for earthquakes in the Pacific Northwest, which are rather sure events. I can't imagine the confusion and frustration from just receiving the emails that have been described here for something exponentially more serious and ongoing.

My heart goes out to everyone affected by this.
.
posted by Schismatic at 2:36 PM on April 16, 2007


Mr Roboto,

Terrorism isn't terrorism because it's scary, but rather because it's "unofficial or unauthorised violence with a political goal". You are right that it is scary. I just find it interesting that American society is so ingrained with the idea of terrorism that it becomes standard practice for journalists to declare that there's no reason to believe that a given event is terrorism.
posted by Wataki at 2:36 PM on April 16, 2007


I'd imagine it might be faster if they ID'd the first girl he killed, then asked her family and friends who the psycho was. IANALEO, however.
posted by bardic at 2:37 PM on April 16, 2007


Sorry, I meant be more mature. I thought you would understand that.

I think understanding that the world doesn't revolve around American tragedy is pretty mature. This isn't that different from what happens every day. If these people died from a lack of health care, or died individually in some inner city ghetto across the country it wouldn't even be reported (except maybe locally). I'm not saying it isn't a tragedy, and my heart goes out to the family members, etc, I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about the media whores that depend on issues like this for ratings and the people who are removed from the issue. In fact, I would say they are more related to the tragedies of imperialism (by virtue of being politically active and/or taxpayers than they are to this tragedy).

It's mini-9/11 all over again.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 2:38 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


mr_roboto writes "How was this not a terrorist attack? It's pretty terrifying."

"Terrorism" doesn't mean simply "instilling terror". It means "instilling terror as a means of intimidation or coersion". We can niggle over the details (for example, he may have pointed a gun at someone to scare them at some point), but definitions of words are nebulous concepts based on what people use them to mean, and I think you'd find that for most people, terrorism doesn't refer to this.
posted by Bugbread at 2:39 PM on April 16, 2007


Bugbread Jack Thompson is on the scene

Oh, wonderful. I guess this is all to do with Bully? Gears of War? Viva Pinata?
posted by Elmore at 2:39 PM on April 16, 2007


By calling people adults, I am not saying that it is "every man for himself..."

Okay then. No worries.

I'd just like to remind people that becuase we set the bar so high for our public safety and security professionals we avoid just this kind of tragedy 90% of the time. We can't look at avoiding this kind of thing as impossible. Certainly we can't stop the psychotic individuals from perpetrating mid-deeds. But we can —and do— through plans and systems —mitigate the potential damage they can do all the time.

The only way to keep the bar high is by holding these officials responsible and nip the excuses in the bud.

I remember right after Columbine everybody wanted to give a Buy to the cops. "What could they have done?" people said. And NOW we know. Plenty. Most of those kids did not have to die at all.

BTW. Though this is certainly not the thread for it remind me one day and I will tell you a funny and true story in which the phrase "Every man for himself!" plays a significant role. You think you won't ever hear somebody really say something that dramatic in it's "intended context" and then one day you do!
posted by tkchrist at 2:39 PM on April 16, 2007


> Can someone please explain to me why this "cellphone video" looks unlike any video recording I've ever seen? Why, for instance, does the video flutter like that? Has is been enhanced in some way?

Cellphones have relatively low framerates and screen fills. In other words, the bottom of the screen is painted after the top of the screen, slowly enough to be noticeable if you try. For videos with relatively low differences between frames (eg, a talking head), this doesn't matter. For videos where the whole camera's waving around a contrasty field, you can't miss it.

On CNN, they are projecting it across four tiled screens, and I think the camera's spasming is being emphasized by whatever latency exists between each monitor's electronics.
posted by ardgedee at 2:40 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Resident Evil 4 or Battlefield 2 feature the DAO-12, FWIW.
posted by mazola at 2:41 PM on April 16, 2007


According to CNN, the cellphone video was taken on a Nokia N70, would that explain why the video footage looks so odd?
posted by ColdChef at 2:41 PM on April 16, 2007


Wataki writes "Terrorism isn't terrorism because it's scary, but rather because it's 'unofficial or unauthorised violence with a political goal'."

And how the hell does DHS know that this wasn't political? The shooter hasn't even been identified yet.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:41 PM on April 16, 2007


I don't exactly agree with what gnostic novelist is saying, but what a weak response davejay. I won't even address the driving thing because frankly I don't see the relevance. How banal to condemn people to death because of where they live. Nobody is surprised when people die in a warzone?? Why the FUCK is it a war zone?

woe that precious college students are massacred in a senseless, ultimately unpredictable tragedy, meanwhile dirty savage arabs are in harms way, dying every day and nobody gives a shit. oh sure, we are sorry they are dying, sorry and bloody unmoved, aren't we.

this might be hypocritical of me at this point, but I second the no soapboxing movement, lets just say this is a terrible tragedy, a human tragedy, and leave it at that, at least until tomorrow.
posted by ryanfou at 2:42 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


I think it would be reasonable for authorities to assume that he had fled; they would have no reason to expect him to return.

Point taken. But this puts us in a post-9/11 handwringing situation in which the people in charge say something like: "How could we have anticipated such cunning malice?" I don't think these sorts of "reasonable assumptions" wash anymore. A campus of 30,000 should have some sort of evacuation contingency plan on hand. And shots fired by an unapprehended gunman should reach the threshold of evacuation.

I will guarantee that this is the "positive" outcome of this tragedy. University administrators are going to be under a lot of pressure to develop evacuation plans and implement them on short notice. Whether or not this is overreaction is not for me to say, but I hold to my original assertion that, barring two gunmen, this is a tragedy that could have been averted by foresighted leadership.
posted by felix betachat at 2:43 PM on April 16, 2007


The "not terrorism in case you're worried" canard always pisses me off, too.

If there are two dead in the dorm, it's possible that the shootings are unrelated (assuming murder/suicide in the dorm) and the second one is opportunistic.

As someone said, I wish these nutjobs would go about this stuff in reverse order (kill self, then kill others). I guess the folks at VT learned an important lesson today, it's just one I wish was never taught.
posted by maxwelton at 2:43 PM on April 16, 2007


tkchrist writes "You ALWAYS assume that if you have not identified the shooter - or - have witnesses that testify to the shooter leaving the scene."

They haven't identified the shooter in Seattle from the 22nd, are you at home cowering behind your door?

tkchrist writes "Who is responsible for YOUR kids when they are at school?"

As adults they are. They can decide on there own whether to follow the instructions of administration or run for the hils or what ever they deem necessary.
posted by Mitheral at 2:43 PM on April 16, 2007


Sorry. "Evacuation" may be overstating my case. But at least campus lockdown and controlled movement of students and staff to a secure location.
posted by felix betachat at 2:44 PM on April 16, 2007


Wow. 100 Iraqis killed in a day, it gets a mention. 30+ Americans die in one freak tragedy and you actually get Bush to address it. Just wow. Oddly enough, 40,000 Americans die in traffic accidents alone every year, which surely amounts to more than 30 a day. But of course, I won't interrupt the jerk-off. Sexy tragedies > tragedies that require thought and have no media angle.

It's all perspective. When you grow up you might find some.
posted by caddis at 2:45 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Gnostic Novelist - I believe that this tragedy may quite possibly be due to a lack of health care. Perhaps not. I am not so naive to view something that has terrible causes as not having a terrible effect. I am looking at the effect and it is terrible, sad, and tragic. I will wait some time, hear some evidence, and then look at the cause. Not that it's important, but I'm not American as you seem to think I am.
posted by Elmore at 2:47 PM on April 16, 2007


felix betachat writes "And shots fired by an unapprehended gunman should reach the threshold of evacuation."

But at what point do you call off the evacuation? Do you give police an hour to find the gunman? A day? What if he's never found? In two hours, this guy could have been over 100 miles away...
posted by mr_roboto at 2:48 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


posted by tadellin if every student in those classrooms had a gun and knew how to use it properly, the body count wouldn't have gotten beyond 2.

posted by solid-one-love On the other hand, if every student in those classrooms had a gun and knew how to use it properly, there wouldn't be more than two people in each classroom.


Two students enter, one student leaves!
posted by fandango_matt at 2:49 PM on April 16, 2007


According to CNN, Alberto Gonzales won't testify tomorrow because of this event.
posted by ColdChef at 2:49 PM on April 16, 2007


A Collegiate Times article describes a German class of 20+ students, of whom only four walked out alive. A "normal-looking" Asian kid wearing a tan "Boy Scout" vest peeked into the class twice before returning and shooting. Suggests he was looking for someone in particular.

The cell phone video, judging by satellite maps, was taken due west of Norris Hall, the building you see in the center.
posted by dhartung at 2:51 PM on April 16, 2007


Gnostic's Law. As any online discussion about death grows longer, the probabibility of a comparison involving Iraq approaches one.
posted by phaedon at 2:51 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


But at what point do you call off the evacuation?

Again, good point. But indications are that most of the students on campus had only the most basic news about what had happened. And that the lockdown information came a full two hours after the original shooting. So this isn't a situation where an evacuation or a lockdown order was given and then rescinded. The administration apparently did little or nothing to inform or protect the student body at large. That's simply unacceptable and I'm quite sure that people will lose their jobs over this.
posted by felix betachat at 2:52 PM on April 16, 2007


In the long run, we're all dead.

Meanwhile THIS thread is about the victims of the VT shootings. Got it? Good.

Carry on.
posted by konolia at 2:52 PM on April 16, 2007


It's all perspective. When you grow up you might find some.

The 'grow up' fallacy has already been addressed. It can be applied universally: "When you grow up, you may recognize that tragedy happens every day and more people suffer and those people aren't blessed enough to die one after other on an American campus while providing an easy media angle."

See, the 'grow up' fallacy is the easiest of sophist tactics [followed by (insert something) Hitler/Nazis (insert something) and then followed by (insert) you're a racist (insert something)]
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 2:53 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


According to CNN, Alberto Gonzales won't testify tomorrow because of this event.

Please, please, please tell me that's a sick joke.
posted by felix betachat at 2:53 PM on April 16, 2007


They haven't identified the shooter in Seattle from the 22nd, are you at home cowering behind your door?

Who? What? What the hell that have to do with anything?

When Jonathan Rowan shot Rebecca Griego on the UW a few days back they shut down that building and evacuated it and that part of the UW until they KNEW what happened. Even though they had his dead friggin body right there.

As adults they are. They can decide on there own whether to follow the instructions of administration or run for the hils or what ever they deem necessary.

Not if they don't KNOW about it.
posted by tkchrist at 2:56 PM on April 16, 2007


Gnostic's Law. As any online discussion about death grows longer, the probabibility of a comparison involving Iraq approaches one.

If this is a tragedy (and it is) then the estimated 600,000 Iraqi civilian deaths are also a tragedy. In America, non-American life is worth less than that of pet animals
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 2:57 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


Gnostic Novelist, I think you've made your little point. Bully for you. Now go away.
posted by bardic at 2:58 PM on April 16, 2007


tkchrist writes "When Jonathan Rowan shot Rebecca Griego on the UW a few days back they shut down that building and evacuated it and that part of the UW until they KNEW what happened"

Sure, but they probably didn't shut down all buildings in a radius sizerd to encompass 30K people. They probably didn't even shut down the buildings across the street.
posted by Mitheral at 2:59 PM on April 16, 2007


Gnostic Novelist. This is not a thread about Iraq and you are trolling. Do it elsewhere.
posted by felix betachat at 2:59 PM on April 16, 2007


I love it when morally superior specimens such as Gnostic Novelist descend from the higher planes to remind us that we are hypocrites for mourning certain local tragedies whilst not equally weeping over larger tragedies thousands of miles away. How dare we express any concern or sympathy for extraordinary outbursts of inexplicable violence in our own neighborhoods when we are not taking the time to march in the streets in solidarity with the suffering of others elsewhere.

Also, more and more people are dying of morbid obesity, and we demean their loss by dwelling upon the victims of this attack instead. Thanks to Gnostic Novelist and his introduction of the Sympathy Equalizer, I'll never make that mistake again.
posted by Midnight Creeper at 2:59 PM on April 16, 2007 [13 favorites has favorites]


felix betachat writes "And that the lockdown information came a full two hours after the original shooting. So this isn't a situation where an evacuation or a lockdown order was given and then rescinded."

Is it clear that the lockdown order was a response the first shooting? It may have been issued after the big shooting spree started two hours later.

I wouldn't be surprised to see people lose their jobs over this, but I'm hesitant to conclude that there was negligence while the details are still so fuzzy. I can easily imagine that the authorities had facts in hand which would have made their response seem reasonable. As to whether they actually had such facts, we'll just have to wait and see. I'm sure CNN will be happy to provide us with a minute-by-minute recap of events once they can assembly it.

felix betachat writes "Please, please, please tell me that's a sick joke."

Rescheduled to Thursday.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:00 PM on April 16, 2007


Is this really from the Virginia Tech Shooting Club?
posted by theemperorhasnoclotheson at 3:02 PM on April 16, 2007


4:45 Update from VT:
Two shootings on campus today have left 33 dead. Thirty-one, including the gunman, died at Norris Hall; two died at West Ambler Johnston Hall. Fifteen other victims from Norris are being treated at area hospitals....

Dear God. I have nothing I can say, honestly. Why?

...and now I head off to my campus.
posted by niles at 3:02 PM on April 16, 2007


As to the shooter's name, he didn't have any ID on him, and they say his face is messed up from wounds. But I suspect the reason they're being really cautious is because of the consequences of identifying him incorrectly. There's no cost to them in waiting, but if they say a name and it turns out to be wrong they're going to get sued by whoever does own that name.

Also, if it turns out that they identify the body of a victim as being the shooter, by mistake, then the lawsuits fly later. So they're going to wait until they're absolutely certain before releasing his name.

Especially if "Asian" turns out to mean (ahem) the "M" word.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 3:03 PM on April 16, 2007


Jack Thompson is on the scene
Already? He couldn't even wait until after the funerals?

Seriously, what's it going to take to get people to ignore this idiot?
posted by JDHarper at 3:04 PM on April 16, 2007


but I'm hesitant to conclude that there was negligence while the details are still so fuzzy

Wise counsel. I guess I'm just flailing around looking for someone to blame just like everybody else. It's hard simply to stare at such malevolence.
posted by felix betachat at 3:04 PM on April 16, 2007


“Especially if ‘Asian’ turns out to mean (ahem) the ‘M’ word.”—Steven C. Den Beste

Motivated?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:06 PM on April 16, 2007


I love it when morally superior specimens such as Gnostic Novelist descend from the higher planes

It's got nothing to do with moral superiority (I'm as amoral as the next American) but I don't put on shows. I don't know the same of a single Iraqi who has died due to an imperialist invasion. I can't name a single foreigner who isn't a celeb, government official, or a friend, but I keep perspective and know that I, as an American taxpayer, am thereby funding the imperialism. It's hard to be morally superior when I'm in that sort of position.
posted by Gnostic Novelist at 3:07 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


They haven't identified the shooter in Seattle from the 22nd

You mean the campus shooter on the 2nd? Uh, yeah, they did, well enough to get an awkward Stranger article out of it.

Sure, but they probably didn't shut down all buildings in a radius sizerd to encompass 30K people. They probably didn't even shut down the buildings across the street.

Hell, the building was across the street from campus. They did little on campus (though for once they were good about getting the word out over e-mail).
posted by dw at 3:07 PM on April 16, 2007


Seriously, what's it going to take to get people to ignore this idiot?

Have you seen his xbox live achievements? Lam0r!!!
posted by Elmore at 3:07 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Steven C. Den Beste writes "Especially if 'Asian' turns out to mean (ahem) the 'M' word."

For shits and giggles I checked out Little Green Footballs' thread about this. Lots of people making that assumption over there. "The lie-berals are using the word 'asian' to cover up that he's a Muslim!" Pretty silly. At least I assume that's what you're referring to, Steven.
posted by brundlefly at 3:11 PM on April 16, 2007


Steven C. Den Beste: "Especially if 'Asian' turns out to mean (ahem) the 'M' word."

Mexican?
posted by JDHarper at 3:12 PM on April 16, 2007


I can't name a single foreigner who isn't a celeb, government official, or a friend

How many people from Axtell, Kansas can you name who aren't celebrities, governmetn officials, or friends? Yes, people react more strongly to things that are closer to them and to things that are more visible to them. It's a complicated issue, and one worth examining but harping on it repeatedly (in two threads at once, even) does little to support the idea that you're not just grinding an axe. Your point is made, and then some; consider dropping it.
posted by cortex at 3:14 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Gnostic, on one level I actually agree with you in that greater atrocities are happening daily and if such events are reported it's usually bitched about as being "Iraqfilter" or "newsfilter" etc. In a way that's wrong.

But

How people are reacting is just human. Metafilter is predominatly American I'd say. Personal tragedy is always greater than some tragedy far away. To the average American this is a personal tragedy. Rightly or wrongly that's the way it is whatever corner of the planet we live on.

It's hard to change human nature and although you seem to have reached the next level of understanding in that regard, you have regressed in regard to understanding human feelings. That, or as others have said, you just haven't grown up yet.
posted by twistedonion at 3:15 PM on April 16, 2007


Steven C. Den Beste Especially if ‘Asian’ turns out to mean (ahem) the ‘M’ word.

Math Major?

Go to hell, Steven.
posted by fandango_matt at 3:16 PM on April 16, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]


It's not like this was a high school -- it's more like a 30,000 person town that it takes an hour to even walk across. I can understand why they didn't close everything down on the first incident -- can you imagine closing every road in and out of a town for an indefinite period because two people were shot there? Telling the whole town that they cannot leave their homes?

I agree that the campus police didn't handle it as well as they might done -- but then again I doubt the police forces of most towns of 30,000 would have done any better. They were simply out of their depth. It's something to be regretted more than to assign blame for. Thank God he police forces of 30,000 person communities don't usually have to think about this kind of thing.

And while you may disagree on that, I know we can all agree that our thoughts are with the victims' families.
posted by tyllwin at 3:19 PM on April 16, 2007


For shits and giggles I checked out Little Green Footballs' thread about this.

I don't read the comment threads on LGF any more. The signal to noise ratio is too close to zero.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 3:19 PM on April 16, 2007


The "M" word? God, the right is just so fucking weird these days.

So let's take this to its logical consclusion SCDB. Most acts of mass murder are committed by white males. Guess we need to lock them all up, huh?
posted by bardic at 3:20 PM on April 16, 2007


Why? Why? Why?

Holy fucking shit. :( I just...

.
posted by perilous at 3:21 PM on April 16, 2007


Sure, but they probably didn't shut down all buildings in a radius sizerd to encompass 30K people. They probably didn't even shut down the buildings across the street.

What are you trying to say mitheral?

That at the UW if it was NOT obvious the shooter was dead and there were NO witnesses they just keep Red Square bustling like everything was okay? For nearly two hours? And not tell anybody?

Because THAT, it seems, is what happened at VT.

I wasn't advocating evacuation or nuking the school from orbit. I was advocating INFORMATION and having a plan in place for these kinds of things. It seams if they had plan it failed to be implemented. There was obviously a serious communication breakdown. The plan should be you - the school officials and administration - inform the student population. Then you lock down the school (close lots to incoming traffic and get EBS message out on the radio) and cancel classes if LEO informs you the shooter is not found.

I was telling you what cops actually DO do as far securing a crime scene - what is SOP.

It seams that the Campus Security and local LEO (if they were on the scene of the first shooting) did NOT do this in any methodical way.
posted by tkchrist at 3:22 PM on April 16, 2007


Sigh. Well, consider the troll fed.

There are reasons, real reasons, that a tragedy like this hits us harder that what happens in other countries. Even if we didn't go to Virginia Tech, we probably went somewhere very similar. And right now, we're all picturing it happening there.

Maybe we'd be better off as a species if we had an instant connection to suffering that we don't understand so well. Almost certainly, in fact. But we don't.
posted by bicyclefish at 3:22 PM on April 16, 2007


Ah, yes, the time-honoured tradition of mods poking their heads in but not actually moderating the personal attacks directed at unpopular opinions.

Gnostic, I don't exactly disagree with you, but this isn't the place. Neither is this the place for the abuse you're taking.
posted by solid-one-love at 3:23 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


This was terrorism.
posted by parmanparman at 3:23 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by es_de_bah at 3:27 PM on April 16, 2007


Y'okay.

I've only scanned this thread, but based on what I've seen, over three hundred and fifty posts into this, those of us who didn't just put a little dot and leave it at that? That's what we shoulda all done. We didn't. Myself included. We shoulda.

So.

.

how many more, man?
posted by ZachsMind at 3:28 PM on April 16, 2007


If 110 people died as a result of a series of auto accidents that occurred within the small footprint of a single college campus in the span of a few hours I'm sure we'd be having a lengthy thread about it too.
posted by mazola at 3:29 PM on April 16, 2007


bicyclefish: Maybe we'd be better off as a species if we had an instant connection to suffering that we don't understand so well. Almost certainly, in fact. But we don't.
Yeah, I made this feature request to God some time ago, but it's been sitting in a Pri3/Sev3 bucket for ages.
posted by hincandenza at 3:30 PM on April 16, 2007


I don't know what to say. I'm sitting in front of the computer, about to leave for uni.


RIP.
posted by cholly at 3:31 PM on April 16, 2007


dw writes "You mean the campus shooter on the 2nd? Uh, yeah, they did, well enough to get an awkward Stranger article out of it."

Nope, I mean random Metro Shooting apparently on the 22nd. The point is tkchrist is advocating for what amounts to martial law for upwards of 30K people because of a single shooting of two people. What makes university students less deserving of their civil rights?

Think about the administration at your university. Now think whether you would trust them with the power of determining who (IE: you and me) can leave the campus and when. They are rarely accountable to the student body in any meaningful way and I sure wouldn't want to give them War Measures like power.

If you believe they should have locked down the university after the first shooting please explain why every shooting (or other murder for that matter whether it be by gun or arson or other means) shouldn't result in a lock down of a radius encompassing 30K people in your town. What makes the university so special? My take is people should be free to leave if they want.
posted by Mitheral at 3:32 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by Smart Dalek at 3:33 PM on April 16, 2007


“...but not actually moderating the personal attacks directed at unpopular opinions. ”—solid-one-love

“But of course, I won't interrupt the jerk-off.”—Gnostic Novelist

His wasn't just an unpopular opinion, he was deliberately offensive.

I agree with his basic idea and I've said something very similar in some similar thread here on MeFi in the past. And, if I recall correctly, just as provocatively. I was wrong to do so. You can tell when someone wants to make a point as part of a productive discussion and when they are being provocative as part of some kind of performance. There's a lot of performance in this thread.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:35 PM on April 16, 2007


to me, as an outsider, it seems that calling this a sexy tragedy is actually quite right.

i sit here in Amsterdam, watching CNN and Fox News go berserk over this (indeed) tragedy, but what the fuss ?
why the hours-on-end-non-coverage, why the need to be there, why the almost insane zoomed-in focus on details yet sill unknown, in short, why not a little more distance and why is this the national headline right now, is it something you folks in the USofA expected or anticipated or what is going on ?

i won't make the comparison to Darfur or Irag, but the relentless focus of the media force (even here) seems off-balance.
posted by Substrata at 3:35 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


Mitheral writes "The point is tkchrist is advocating for what amounts to martial law for upwards of 30K people because of a single shooting of two people. What makes university students less deserving of their civil rights?"

I think you're overthinking his use of the word "lockdown". As far as I know, he's not talking about policies with force of law, but just giving specific and timely directions instead of vague and late ones. Like evacuation plans and fire drills: you tell people "Go out the west door! Do not attempt to get your bags out of your room!", but you aren't removing their rights, because they're free to pay attention or ignore you as they see fit. (I assume this because he gives examples of his company's past contingency plans, which are obviously not martial law but "suggestion" based, and he's using them as parallel examples).
posted by Bugbread at 3:36 PM on April 16, 2007


.

As for the future, communication needs to happen more quickly in emergencies. I work in higher-ed and one of the universities I was at was considering a plan to automatically send text-messages to students in case of emergency. These days cell phones are in almost every student's hands (the university even eliminated land-line phone service in the dorms).

Washington, DC has an emergency alert system that works like this. When I was living there I would get messages about severe weather, traffic delays, and crime, all very quickly:
When an incident or emergency occurs, authorized DC Emergency Management personnel can rapidly notify you using this community alert system. Alert DC is your personal connection to real-time updates, instructions on where to go, what to do, or what not to do, who to contact and other important information.

posted by pithy comment at 3:36 PM on April 16, 2007


meta
posted by pyramid termite at 3:37 PM on April 16, 2007


"seems" heh.
posted by tkchrist at 3:40 PM on April 16, 2007


“why is this the national headline right now”—Substrata

It's the largest non-military mass shooting in American history. This would dominate the news in any country in the world. This is a massacre. One individual with two guns has managed to achieve a kill count that's in the same range as a suicide bomber.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:44 PM on April 16, 2007


The point is tkchrist is advocating for what amounts to martial law for upwards of 30K people because of a single shooting of two people.

Martial law? mithreal that is bullshit and you know it.

Okay. Discussion over.

I pray to Christ you are in no way responsible for or involved in public safety.
posted by tkchrist at 3:44 PM on April 16, 2007


His wasn't just an unpopular opinion, he was deliberately offensive.

It wasn't, however, personal, and I wasn't speaking to that separate issue. Even if he's trolling, "focusing comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand—not at other members of the site" still applies. I don't care how angry the mob is or how much of a moron GN is*, that's no excuse for a pile-on in the Blue. If he's trolling the mods should be nuking the troll posts, too. We know that they're here deleting unflagged posts about gun control, so the "we don't go out searching for stuff to delete" line doesn't wash.

Anyhow. I don't have an opinion on the main topic other than "Bummer. That's bad news."

(* I'm not calling GN a moron)
posted by solid-one-love at 3:45 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 3:45 PM on April 16, 2007


I think you're overthinking his use of the word "lockdown".

Bugbread actually I was thinking nerve agent over a tri-state area. Or simply executing anybody with a book bag.
posted by tkchrist at 3:46 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


"The point is tkchrist is advocating for what amounts to martial law for upwards of 30K people because of a single shooting of two people. What makes university students less deserving of their civil rights?"

I think you miss the point. About 7 or 8 years ago, I was working in a small dot-com office in Seattle's Freemont/Wallingford neighborhood. One morning, an assailant walked into one of the many boat repair shops in the area (on the locks and Lake Union) and shot three people, killing two. With a matter of minutes, the SPD had the entire neighborhood in lockdown, businesses included, not knowing what to expect, while they conducted house to house searches. The whole thing was over in a matter of hours, thankfully as they apprehended the guy at about 2 or 3pm, but it seemed to be reasonably effective. Now if he had remained at large past then, I honestly have no idea what the plan would have been, so go figure that.

At any rate, on a University Campus, in theory, this sort of thing seems much eaiser to do given normally order distribution and fortress like nature of most university dorms. That said, I've never been to Va Tech, so I'm no expert in that specific instance. But, suffice it to say that I'm a little incredulous at your increduilty.
posted by psmealey at 3:48 PM on April 16, 2007


TK, according to some of the reports I have heard, after the first shooting, an asian student was detained in handcuffs. Turned out not to be the guy, but a reporter went on record as saying the shooter had been apprehended. This may be partly to blame for the lack of action.
posted by vronsky at 3:49 PM on April 16, 2007


It's the largest non-military mass shooting in American history.

no it isn't.
even i know that.

technicalities, answer my questions.
posted by Substrata at 3:51 PM on April 16, 2007


What an unspeakable tragedy - my prayers are firmly with those killed and injured and their families tonight.

On a point of pragmatism, all sensible people should revile those who seek to make political capital out of this horror today. Note in your minds the ambulance chasing lawyers or shrill PR people from whatever side of whatever argument and cross them off the list of reasonable human beings. For them their argument is more important than the real human tragedy of today - in itself a much smaller tragedy.

There will be plenty of time in days and weeks to come to apportion blame - now is not the time.
posted by prentiz at 3:52 PM on April 16, 2007


Gnostic Novelist is right actually. Because the Internet causes a disconnect between insiders and outsiders. Outsiders react all "gotta debate gun control" or "gotta analyse Bush's speech" when the insider's neighbour just got murdered.

I will butt out of this thread out of respect, but the very self-righteous here would pay to remember the blood-boiling feeling they're getting today before they opine so wisely/ignorantly about what the blown up markets means for the surge etc.
posted by dydecker at 3:52 PM on April 16, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]


bugbread writes "I think you're overthinking his use of the word 'lockdown'"

Maybe this is a difference in term definitions. I guess I got started when odinsdream advocated a under heavy, heavy lockdown. I've confused the two positions.
posted by Mitheral at 3:52 PM on April 16, 2007


At any rate, on a University Campus, in theory, this sort of thing seems much eaiser to do given normally order distribution and fortress like nature of most university dorms.

And yet, the first thing that came to mind when I heard about this was that the building at the university I teach at is unsecured 16 hours a day. The building and 95% of the classrooms in the building (except the computer labs) are not securable by anyone other than custodial staff and campus police. These rooms also do not have phones or a call system in them or accessible to them. In the event of a "lockdown," my students and I would literally be holding the door shut with our feet, waiting for help to find us.
posted by mrmojoflying at 3:58 PM on April 16, 2007


“no it isn't.
even i know that.”
—Substrata

“At least 33 people were killed today on the campus of Virginia Tech in what appears to be the deadliest shooting rampage in American history, according to federal law-enforcement officials.”—New York Times
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:00 PM on April 16, 2007


tkchrist writes "Martial law? mithreal that is bullshit and you know it. "

Give mitheral some credit. That's what I misread it as as well, until you gave the company examples. It was just a misreading. It happens.

Ethereal Bligh writes "It's the largest non-military mass shooting in American history."

Substrata writes "no it isn't.
"even i know that."


Yeah, that was badly phrased by EB. Probably the best phrasing of it would be:

"It's all over the media because it's the largest shooting on American soil that has happened in the lifetimes of most people watching the news."

(And I realize that approaches the frequent "This is the largest reconstructed wooden Nichren sect temple containing a Buddha trinity in all of Japan!" line, but I do think "in the lifetime of most people" is a pretty important factor here)
posted by Bugbread at 4:00 PM on April 16, 2007


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
posted by Atreides at 4:02 PM on April 16, 2007


Especially if "Asian" turns out to mean (ahem) the "M" word.

People have already described him as "Oriental" This is America, not Britain. Asian generally means east asian.

Gnostic Novelist related comments should go in the meta talk thread, especially since a gun control debate never really materialized.
posted by delmoi at 4:02 PM on April 16, 2007


What an unspeakable tragedy - my prayers are firmly with those killed and injured and their families tonight.

On a point of pragmatism, all sensible people should revile those who seek to make political capital out of this horror today. Note in your minds the ambulance chasing lawyers or shrill PR people from whatever side of whatever argument and cross them off the list of reasonable human beings. For them their argument is more important than the real human tragedy of today - in itself a much smaller tragedy.

There will be plenty of time in days and weeks to come to apportion blame - now is not the time.


The choices aren't only getting political gain or it being an 'uspeakable tragedy'. One could, if there were such people so inclined, speak about these issues in a honest manner before the attention span of the public wanes. Seeing as they do keep happening and all.

People with little to no attachment to a situation emoting digitally strikes me as merely narcissistic and hardly any better than those politicizing the issue.
posted by kigpig at 4:04 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


“ ‘It's all over the media because it's the largest shooting on American soil that has happened in the lifetimes of most people watching the news.’ ”

No, because that's not what I was trying to say. I shouldn't have attempted to be specific and, instead, simply said that it is “the largest event of its kind in American history”. Which it is.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:05 PM on April 16, 2007


“People with little to no attachment to a situation emoting digitally strikes me as merely narcissistic and hardly any better than those politicizing the issue.”—kigpig

How is “emoting” about this any more or less narcissistic than anything else?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:08 PM on April 16, 2007


all sensible people should revile those who seek to make political capital out of this horror today.

That's as pointless a sentence as any I have seen today. No one can possibly know what exists in the heart of the Other and judge them on that basis. People "making political capital" of this are likely just as horrified, saddened as angry by this as those who are not.

I don't have much to add to this other than that I feel horrible for everyone that was personally touched by this tragedy today, and this kind of talk hurts my brain.
posted by psmealey at 4:11 PM on April 16, 2007


psmealey writes "People 'making political capital' of this are likely just as horrified, saddened as angry by this as those who are not. "

Except Jack Thompson, of course.
posted by Bugbread at 4:13 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by lostburner at 4:14 PM on April 16, 2007


“the largest event of its kind in American history”. Which it is.

no, it isn't.

but i want you (all) to read my comments when things are quieter, no way i want to offend anyone here, just asking.
posted by Substrata at 4:15 PM on April 16, 2007


Substrata writes "no, it isn't."

EB's talking shootings, not bombings.
posted by Bugbread at 4:16 PM on April 16, 2007


There are reasons, real reasons, that a tragedy like this hits us harder that what happens in other countries. Even if we didn't go to Virginia Tech, we probably went somewhere very similar. And right now, we're all picturing it happening there.

Narratives trump numbers, but not for an insidious or inhuman reason. You might argue that 110 people die every day and we shouldn't get upset over ~30, but we will: this is the nature of tragedy. What happened today is deeply, deeply tragic; students gunned down senselessly... this is truly terrible.

In the case of car accidents, or heart attacks, or cancer ... these are all inherent risks of activity or age and are not entirely outside the realm of possibilty. An event such as this is almost incomprehensible in its suddenness, and we should not nitpick people's emotional reaction for perceived hypocrisies.

On a point of pragmatism, all sensible people should revile those who seek to make political capital out of this horror today.

Absolutely. There may be relevant political issues... but they can wait for tomorrow, or next week, or month. Calm and rational discussion is highly unlikely. sigh.
posted by mek at 4:19 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


It's the largest non-military mass shooting in American history.

no it isn't.
even i know that.

technicalities, answer my questions.


Apparently you don't know the difference between a bombing and a shooting, of which this is the largest.
posted by puke & cry at 4:20 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


My God, the senseless tragedy.

.
posted by MythMaker at 4:21 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


EB's talking shootings, not bombings.

let me repeat that:

EB's talking shootings, not bombings.
EB's talking shootings, not bombings.
EB's talking shootings, not bombings.
EB's talking shootings, not bombings.
EB's talking shootings, not bombings.

see the difference ?

read, folks, don't argue.
posted by Substrata at 4:22 PM on April 16, 2007


posted by XQUZYPHYR What the fuck is it with this particular week?

He didn't like Mondays. What reason do you need to be shown?
posted by fandango_matt at 4:23 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:30 PM on April 16, 2007


Holy fucking shit.

For the dead, for their loved ones, for the ripple effect this will have on their lives and ours...for our leaders and those in positions of power, and for everyone who's ever had to experience anything similar, my prayers are with you. I can't imagine the pain.

Senseless. I need to go spend time with my family now. This is too much.
posted by diastematic at 4:31 PM on April 16, 2007


Substrata writes "technicalities, answer my questions."

Ok.

what the fuss ?
- A lot of people got shot in the US. More than probably anyone can remember ever getting shot within their lifetimes.

why the hours-on-end-non-coverage
Because people want to know, and because news outlets want viewers/readers

why the need to be there
You mean having reporters on-the-scene, even if they're just standing in front of a nondescript building? Because with the advent of easy remote broadcasting capabilities, for better or for worse, viewers gravitated to on-the-spot folks because they figured they'd have more first-hand information, and now it's become expected

why the almost insane zoomed-in focus on details yet sill unknown
Filling empty screen time with what little info you have

why not a little more distance
See above.

why is this the national headline right now
It's the most unusual thing that happened in the US today that people want to know about

is it something you folks in the USofA expected or anticipated
In the sense of "something like this will happen someday", yes, some people probably expected it. However, the expectation of "someday" doesn't really change much of the surprise of "someday = today", so it's still unexpected and unanticipated on a certain level

what is going on?
You're going to have to phrase this question a bit more clearly.

Any other questions?
posted by Bugbread at 4:33 PM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


Kraftmatic: take it to the metatalk thread.
posted by delmoi at 4:33 PM on April 16, 2007


What really makes me sad is that this sort of thing just fosters distrust and fear, really out of proportion to the scale of the tragedy. It seems like everyone's afraid of each other these days.
posted by delmoi at 4:35 PM on April 16, 2007


It seems like there's a bloody massacre every other week now

But there isn't. This upsets me as much as anyone, but schools and college campuses are still some of the safest places around. Things like this are still horrible, obviously.
posted by bardic at 4:35 PM on April 16, 2007


Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese writes "Or are we just going to stand by and let these massacres become so commonplace they don't even rate news coverage, like all the other murders that happen every day here?"

One of the moments (of many, many moments) of my experience of living in Japan that has stood out in my memory is when they reported on the national news about a handgun being fired somewhere in the country. Nobody was hit. It wasn't a sniper. It was just a gun, not owned by a policeman or SDF member, that got fired. And that was (admittedly minor, but nonetheless) national news.
posted by Bugbread at 4:36 PM on April 16, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]


I'm late here, but I'd like to state that Jack Thompson is an ambulance-chasing dickhead. For shame, Jack.
posted by Dr-Baa at 4:37 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


People have already described him as "Oriental"...

Suits me. All other things being equal, I'd prefer the "lovelorn wacko goes postal" explanation for this terrible tragedy.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 4:40 PM on April 16, 2007


Kraftmatic Matt wants GC talk in Meta. "mathowie writes "Move your gun control talk over here. I'll be removing additional new gun control talk from this thread.""

tkchrist writes "I pray to Christ you are in no way responsible for or involved in public safety."

Your deity has failed you.
posted by Mitheral at 4:40 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by zach4000 at 4:41 PM on April 16, 2007


From that MySpace link|:
Court TV wanted to interview me because you were reported as the shooter today. Then they apologized and said the information was inaccurate. Just thought you might want to know, assuming the second part was true.
posted by PHINC at 4:43 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 4:44 PM on April 16, 2007


That MySpace can't be the shooter, can it? No reason to think it is. He's "online now" and all. It's some other fuck.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:50 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by meditative_zebra at 4:55 PM on April 16, 2007


Or are we just going to stand by and let these massacres become so commonplace they don't even rate news coverage, like all the other murders that happen every day here?

Something like that, I'd think.
posted by ryanshepard at 5:00 PM on April 16, 2007


. So this isn't a situation where an evacuation or a lockdown order was given and then rescinded. The administration apparently did little or nothing to inform or protect the student body at large. That's simply unacceptable and I'm quite sure that people will lose their jobs over this.

They'd better. This was disgraceful negligence.

Also, the comparisons to a campus the size of Virginia Tech's and a small town are useless in terms of anything else but size. No, you wouldn't shut down a town of 30,000 people after two shootings; but this is a University campus. Very different thing.

I just saw a portion of the University's president's speech on CNN, in which he stated that they didn't close the campus because they thought it was a "domestic dispute". In other words, your average guy shooting his estranged girlfriend, and nobody else is likely to be harmed. This makes me ill both in its implication of the normalization of violence directed at women, and the idea that two people dead and a gunman at large is a situation of acceptable risk, so that classes can continue with nothing more than an email sent to the campus-wide mailing list (and that far too late).
posted by jokeefe at 5:02 PM on April 16, 2007 [7 favorites has favorites]


Wow, Fark was wrong?
posted by dhartung at 5:03 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Also worth pointing out again that there's a pretty high number of commuter students at Tech. It's not as if all 30,000 students were there there all at once, and calling for a lockdown would have led to mass pandemonium or something.
posted by bardic at 5:08 PM on April 16, 2007


jokeefe writes "This makes me ill both in its implication of the normalization of violence directed at women"

I don't know that it indicates normalization of violence directed exclusively at women (I would be very surprised if the tables were turned (i.e. a woman shot a man) and the administration acted any different) as much as the relative frequency of domestic violence, to/from either gender. Still sucks, but I don't think it's an example of misogynistic suckiness.
posted by Bugbread at 5:10 PM on April 16, 2007


speaking to pithy comment comment (ahem) on the DC Alert system, I think a big ass message sign on the side of a few campus buildings would be a good idea on university campus's that are this size. Even if the message was sent out as fast as they could (and I'm with tkchrist/etc. on this - 2 hours before notifying the campus population that there had been a shooting seems almost negligent) email is not a super efficient way to reach large populations of people on the move.
posted by concreteforest at 5:12 PM on April 16, 2007


Gnostic Novelist --

The logic of your position seems to be, that if a maniac came to MY street today, and went door-to-door killing people, and killed 32 people on my street, that the appropriate response on my part should be:

"Even though this killing of 32 people happened on my street, I must acknowledge that many MORE people died in car accidents today in the U.S. alone, and a lot of people died in Iraq today as well, and it would be morally infantile for me to be differently upset about these 32 people, and furthermore it would be morally infantile to want to talk, specifically, about how upset I am that this happened on my street today, simply because those people died on my street and not in Iraq or elsewhere in the U.S."

Is that a correct reading of your position?
posted by jayder at 5:26 PM on April 16, 2007


Jayder: Sorry, it's mentioned in the MeTa thread, but Gnostic Novelist has been given a timeout, so he won't be able to answer your question.
posted by Bugbread at 5:32 PM on April 16, 2007


The community does appear to prefer well-marbled troll steaks, ones that are juicy and tender. And thus they feed their young trolls the finest verbiage... nay, they overfeed them! Mmmm, mmm.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:37 PM on April 16, 2007


concreteforest writes "I think a big ass message sign on the side of a few campus buildings would be a good idea on university campus's that are this size. Even if the message was sent out as fast as they could (and I'm with tkchrist/etc. on this - 2 hours before notifying the campus population that there had been a shooting seems almost negligent) email is not a super efficient way to reach large populations of people on the move."

In the same vein, most college students use cells instead of land lines, right? Maybe it would be possible to send out a mass text message to all students, faculty and staff. Hell, use Twitter!
posted by brundlefly at 5:42 PM on April 16, 2007


CNN should be ashamed of their barely concealed glee in their coverage of this tragedy. Wolf Blitzer and his ilk are all dickheads. Who watches this shit outside of the gym or the airport? CNN (in the US, the international version is marginally better) so accurately mirrors for me what is broken in America today.
posted by msali at 5:46 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


There's a lot of performance in this thread










.
posted by voltairemodern at 5:53 PM on April 16, 2007


A shame, and tragic all around.

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posted by Smedleyman at 5:57 PM on April 16, 2007


A friend of a friend of mine is missing. She had class in Norris this morning.

.
posted by naoko at 5:58 PM on April 16, 2007


I'm a student at Tech, and I don't really have time to read 445 comments, but thanks to everyone who commented. So far, everyone I know is ok, even though I had a close friend that was in the building a floor up. Here's hoping none of the names released tomorrow are anyone I know. Thanks again.
posted by CipherSwarm at 5:58 PM on April 16, 2007


This is awful. What a waste.
posted by Lucie at 5:58 PM on April 16, 2007


I find myself strongly compelled to turn on the tv to learn the latest details about this tragedy.

But why is that?

One thing is that it is a vivid and shocking event. Second it was perpetrated by someone acting malevolently (rather than being say, a result of a natural disaster). Third, it was unexpected. Fourth, it is an act of profound injustice.

All of these things trigger the primate fear response. It's deeply unsettling.

But we're being fooled by our primate brains. The fear response is being triggered on a possibility of this happening (to me) in the future and not its *probability*. I figure the more we understand this neural false alarm phenomena, the better we can truly deal with the real dangers in the world.
posted by storybored at 5:59 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


..
posted by autodidact at 6:01 PM on April 16, 2007


This is awful.

I feel sorry for everyone who has had their lives shattered by this.

I also feel sorry for someone who was so broken that they could do something like this.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:02 PM on April 16, 2007


Hell. I hope your friend's okay, Naoko.

.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 6:02 PM on April 16, 2007


How is “emoting” about this any more or less narcissistic than anything else?

Because of this part "People with little to no attachment to a situation". i.e. it's a display of false emotion (of course only for those who didn't have attachment to the issue and jumped in just to say how bad they felt). I would presume it's just for attention which is why I called in 'narcissistic' though I guess I can't really claim to know the psychology of why people need to feign sadness and it's probably a bit oversimplistic.
posted by kigpig at 6:05 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


.

(awful)
posted by amberglow at 6:14 PM on April 16, 2007


no words.

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posted by samsara at 6:15 PM on April 16, 2007


I'm a grad student and English teacher at mega-university on the opposite side of the country. This makes me tremendously sad, and even sadder when I think about the possibility of my students (even the dumb ones) and my friends being murdered in the same way. I don't really know what to say beyond that.

.
posted by papakwanz at 6:23 PM on April 16, 2007


It's a strange feeling, to feel like nothing you do will affect the situaition.

It will happen again, and amid the grief and uptick in cable news ratings there will once again be nothing I could have done to prevent it.

What am I supposed to do.
posted by four panels at 6:31 PM on April 16, 2007


My true condolences to all those directly affected. Because indirectly, aren't we all?

Too little to say, too soon, too late. I don't know. I took my two little kids for an evening walk around the local campus tonight, almost against feelings of fear and shock, fighting off thoughts of an improbable recurrence, I am sad to admit. There were candles lit outside the Journalism building. I bet 32.

At this moment I do not care whether gun control would have prevented that (I do believe that, though) but I am shattered that such young people have so little respect for other (esp. unknown to them) people's lives. What the fuck can trigger a young mind/soul into such utter desperation and emotional numbness? Who the fuck is going to address that eventually and seriously, not like video-games seriously.
posted by carmina at 6:35 PM on April 16, 2007


read, folks, don't argue.

We did read, Substrata. You said that this wasn't the largest non-military mass shooting in U.S. history. You're flat-out wrong.
posted by oaf at 6:36 PM on April 16, 2007


Otherwise uncorroborated report from Chicago Sun-Times that the shooter was a 24-year-old Chinese man on a student visa.
posted by jonp72 at 6:38 PM on April 16, 2007


CNN should be ashamed of their barely concealed glee in their coverage of this tragedy.

Thank god we have a local tragedy to take our minds off... what was it? Something. This and the nor'easter should keep our dedicated news journalists busy for at least a couple of weeks.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:41 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


This is ugly beyond comprehension.

The way cable TV's gonna choke us with this is pretty ugly, too. They would interview the bullets if they could.
posted by EatTheWeak at 6:44 PM on April 16, 2007 [8 favorites has favorites]


This is so sad.

In my nursing school class just this morning we had a lecture on disaster preparedness. The professor, a NP at a small town ER, told us the story of a high school bus accident that overwhelmed the tiny community she worked in. It was right after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita so the area was full of national and local media with nothing to do. The healthcare workers and the community stepped up. The media swarmed the hospital. Film crews kept trying to film into the ER. Reporters posed as parents and tried to interview injured kids in the hospital.

For the love of all humanity, give this town some space to heal.
posted by dog food sugar at 6:56 PM on April 16, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


So, are we looking at a tragic American iteration of the “suicide bomber”. The outcome is the same. A lot of people get killed and the killer kills himself.

The Muslims die before their victims and the Americans die after... cultural preference... nevertheless everyone dies.
posted by Huplescat at 6:56 PM on April 16, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


.
posted by nile_red at 6:56 PM on April 16, 2007


Because of this part "People with little to no attachment to a situation". i.e. it's a display of false emotion (of course only for those who didn't have attachment to the issue and jumped in just to say how bad they felt). I would presume it's just for attention which is why I called in 'narcissistic' though I guess I can't really claim to know the psychology of why people need to feign sadness and it's probably a bit oversimplistic.

You've just told a large number of people that their feelings are either "false" or "for attention" because you personally don't share them or understand them. You've also claimed that you know more of what's going on in other people's minds than they know themselves.
posted by watsondog at 6:57 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


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posted by gcbv at 6:59 PM on April 16, 2007


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posted by theiconoclast31 at 7:02 PM on April 16, 2007


If storybored's comment didn't get you mad, and if you're concerned with "what can we do so this doesn't happen again", a security professional has some advice.

And:

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posted by anthill at 7:08 PM on April 16, 2007


kigpig: I think you are being overly cynical and deeply unfair. Why does any vocalization of sadness over the situation need to be some ploy for attention. Did this tragedy make you sad? Did you discuss it with your friends and colleagues? How is that different here than what's going on here? MeFi is a community, and though only marginally a part of the core of that community myself, it's pretty apparent to anyone who can tell the time of day. Even aside from the fact several MeFites are touched personally by this horror show and might appreciate any show of compassion, discussion of shared anxiety and grief is part of what community is all about.

I think you misunderstand the nature of this place, at least in terms of some users, if you think the rain of dots, et al is pure theatre. Of course, I can't speak for everyone, but I'd bet at least a strong minority have real feelings of attachment and affection for each other. Like I said, I know we talked about this at my workplace. (Of course, I work in a school. Oddly, our discussion did not center around "this could happen to us" so much as how these sort of crimes tend to be a phenomenon only or largely of the affluent.)

Odd that of the multiple train wrecks in this thread, this is the point I decide to talk about, but who knows why I do half the things I do.

Now, I won't be so narcissistic as to post links to my own (dusty with age) work on the subject, but the real-life attachment to fake-life friends and acquaintances is not a new idea.

Anyway, to make a long story short, give people the benefit of the doubt and there's no reason to attack perceived motives.
posted by absalom at 7:14 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


On preview: I cannot form a sentence and watsondog beat me to it.
posted by absalom at 7:18 PM on April 16, 2007


According to CNN, Alberto Gonzales won't testify tomorrow because of this event.
posted by ColdChef at 5:49 PM on April 16 [+]
[!]


and there we have it, folks.
posted by quonsar at 7:18 PM on April 16, 2007


Reading Chinese forums at the moment. Full of some outrageous nationalist filth that's blaming America for turning a good Chinese boy bad on 强国论坛 at the People's Daily, where lots of the Han equivalent of LGF types hang out.
posted by Abiezer at 7:28 PM on April 16, 2007


mithreal: Your deity has failed you.

Then, if you have one shred of integrity at all, you should quit until you can get re-trained to be less hysterical. Or at least inform the rest of us which public sectors are under your influence so we can avoid them.
posted by tkchrist at 7:35 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


.
posted by cerebus19 at 7:40 PM on April 16, 2007


People have already described him as "Oriental"...

Suits me. All other things being equal, I'd prefer the "lovelorn wacko goes postal" explanation for this terrible tragedy.


Steven C. Den Beste, you consistently make me sick.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 7:46 PM on April 16, 2007


I am so sorry.... I totally misread that and overreacted..... sorry....
posted by OverlappingElvis at 7:49 PM on April 16, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


grow up' fallacy
obviously, it isn't a fallacy all the time



Thank god for the $5 sign up. My nine year old tried to sign up and this put him off.
posted by caddis at 7:54 PM on April 16, 2007


It's interesting if the guy was a Chinese citizen - that would mean that the last two incidences of crimes like this were commited by non-nationals.
posted by Artw at 7:56 PM on April 16, 2007


Screw the politics... for now.

.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:57 PM on April 16, 2007


It frustrates me to no end that the school yard is the location of choice for this sort of thing.

.
posted by furtive at 8:06 PM on April 16, 2007


Reading Chinese forums at the moment.
Isn't that just as silly as someone saying "Reading American forums at the moment" and expecting something meaningful and generalizable to follow?
posted by cashman at 8:08 PM on April 16, 2007


Well, yes cashman, hence I tried to point out that the particularly offensive one was home to a certain type, just as different US forums attract different users. Sorry if that point wasn't clear.
I was saddened to see so many first responses there be a knee-jerk defence of China for the actions of one crazed individual who may turn out not even to be a Chinese citizen. Wasn't attempting any larger point.
posted by Abiezer at 8:15 PM on April 16, 2007


Okay, thank you for the further explanation, Abiezer.
posted by cashman at 8:18 PM on April 16, 2007


It's interesting if the guy was a Chinese citizen - that would mean that the last two incidences of crimes like this were commited by non-nationals.

wow, Artw. You are on to something!
posted by carmina at 8:18 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by spitbull at 8:29 PM on April 16, 2007


Leave it all alone and get some rest.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:41 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:58 PM on April 16, 2007


Sheesh, did anyone see the horrid technical error on Dateline a bit ago? Brian Williams was interviewing 2 men (survivors? rescue workers? they were in matching windbreaker-type outfits) and every time they cut to a close-up of one of the subjects, it had an overlay on the screen, which I'm sure is for control room use. The lower left had those audio level meter bars, but the middle had a crosshair! Terribly unfortunate. And not just once, it was for the whole interview.
posted by The Deej at 8:58 PM on April 16, 2007


I find it interesting that they haven't even been willing to say whether the two shooting incidents were the same guy. They're also still bottling up any information about who he was (or they were). Given that the first shooting (2 dead) was almost certainly a crime of passion, you'd think that they'd have identified that murderer already.

And if it actually was two different shooters, then...

...then it means the reason they're being circumspect is that they're still hunting for the first one and don't want to give away that they're after him.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 9:06 PM on April 16, 2007


the horrid technical error on Dateline

its the most horrid technical error in modern American broadcast history. good lord!
posted by quonsar at 9:08 PM on April 16, 2007


Reading Chinese forums at the moment.
Isn't that just as silly as someone saying "Reading American forums at the moment" and expecting something meaningful and generalizable to follow?


ummm - cashman, Abiezer lives in China... it's great that he is providing some "local" reaction
posted by madamjujujive at 9:09 PM on April 16, 2007


its the most horrid technical error in modern American broadcast history. good lord!

Hey q let's not get carried away. 2nd or 3rd maybe.
posted by The Deej at 9:16 PM on April 16, 2007


Second Male May Be Involved in VA Tech Massacre

The title hints at a second gunman, but the article suggets nothing of the sort.
posted by dgaicun at 9:17 PM on April 16, 2007


Two shooters? Connected or unconnected? That would be either the most insane co-incidence ever... OR... something possibly very scary is happening at VT since number one would still be at large.

I doubt it though. That seems too frigg'n weird to be possible.
posted by tkchrist at 9:24 PM on April 16, 2007


I doubt it though. That seems too frigg'n weird to be possible.

There's some v.cool tin foil hat theories regarding the Port Arthur massacre. Strange how something so simple like a one-shooter spree killing can have doubts generated about it.

Not saying this will also generate conspiracy theories.

Just sayin'.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:40 PM on April 16, 2007


Actually, who am I kidding?!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:44 PM on April 16, 2007


On the scroll beneath Olberman ithe ATF is saying that the shooter was not a VT student. First I had seen this.
posted by vronsky at 9:45 PM on April 16, 2007


An entirely different explanation for the delay: some sites I was just reading seem to think that the sole shooter was from China. What they were saying was that last year he was a student; this year he arrived a few days ago on a tourist visa. If so, and given the reports that he had no ID on him and his face was partially ruined when he shot himself, then the delay may be due to contacting the Chinese authorities for things like dental records and/or fingerprints in order to confirm his ID before they announce it.

When it comes to anything that makes China or its citizens look bad, cooperation from the Chinese authorities tends to be slow and grudging. But even with enthusiastic cooperation, it would take some time to get the appropriate records from China to make a positive ID of the corpse. So a long delay in releasing a positive ID doesn't argue against the "lovelorn wacko" theory.

As to those links about the Port Arthur massacre, I note that the first one is to stuff written by Joe Vialls. He's a real piece of work (or he was). Among his other wonderful theories is the one about how the Bali bombing was actually an Israeli micro-nuke.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 9:53 PM on April 16, 2007


Larry Johnson: Now Do You Understand?

Ouch.
posted by homunculus at 10:02 PM on April 16, 2007


OverlappingElvis, I certainly accept your apology, but I'll be damned if I know what it was you thought I said that got you heated in the first place.

No explanation for what happened today will bring the dead back to life, or heal the wounds of the surviving victims, or comfort the families and friends of the wounded and dead in their grief.

But if this was committed by a jihadist then it could be the first attack in a campaign, and other similar attacks might be in the offing, leading to many more dead and wounded elsewhere, some other day. That's why I hope that the lovelorn wacko theory turns out to be right.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 10:08 PM on April 16, 2007


Ok so I get the crime o' passion part:
He was said to have quarrelled in a dormitory with his girlfriend, whom he believed had been seeing another man. A student adviser was called to sort out the row. But the killer produced a gun and shot dead both his girlfriend and the adviser.

Two hours later he rampaged through an engineering building on the other side of the campus in the town of Blacksburg, killing indiscriminately.
. . . but why the rampage?? If the Chicago Times is correct that he was a Chinese national, was he transferring anger over a cheatin' American girlfriend to Americans in general?
posted by dgaicun at 10:34 PM on April 16, 2007


.
posted by ialwayscryatendings at 10:35 PM on April 16, 2007


So we still have this:
Authorities said they are still trying to determine whether the shootings at West Ambler Johnston Hall and Norris Hall are related. They have identified a “person of interest” in the Ambler Johnston shootings but do not have anyone in custody. That person is cooperating with authorities, they said.

I posted this hours ago but no one picked up on it. The question is: do you still lock down the campus if there may be a second shooter out there? At what point should you unlock the campus? This question arises from the harsh criticism on this site and in the media of VPI's handling of this matter.
posted by CCBC at 10:36 PM on April 16, 2007


My brother is a senior at Virginia Tech. Lucky for me, I heard he was okay before I even knew why he might not be okay. He graduates in like, 20 days -- God. He was in the classroom building next to Norris, and they watched out the window. He seemed pretty freaked out, for him. Said things like "that guy could've come to our building just as easily" and kept coming back to "it's just crazy."

naoko, I hope your friend is okay.
posted by salvia at 10:36 PM on April 16, 2007


DGaicun, it's probably a mistake to try to find a rational explanation for a deeply irrational act. Sometimes the only explanation is that there are evil people in the world, or people who are very sick. What the shooter did may not ever make sense to those who are rational, because if the shooter himself had been rational he wouldn't have done it.

But if you're really looking for an explanation for the rampage, about the best you'll do is, "If I'm gonna go out anyway, I may as well go out in a blaze of glory." For a person who has nothing to lose and is already completely around the bend, that might make sense.

Even if it doesn't to you and me.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 10:52 PM on April 16, 2007


Maybe I'm wrong but it seems the main media are missing the apparant arrest of this guy at the campus.
posted by theemperorhasnoclotheson at 11:09 PM on April 16, 2007


I'm actually kind of scared. Every time I see a tragedy like this, I imagine myself not in the shoes of the students, but those of the gunman. I think I need to see a psychologist or something.
posted by tehloki at 11:14 PM on April 16, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


The problem with the idea that this started out as a crime of passion was stated somewhere above... who happens to carry around enough ammo for a rampage? If the two shootings were carried out by the same person, then obviously the shooter was planning something big.
posted by papakwanz at 11:21 PM on April 16, 2007


Yeah, I think you're right. The chain on the door, the ammo, multiple handguns. Whatever the issue with his girlfriend, the massacre was considered in advance. Perhaps after the passion killing he figured there was no better time. Or perhaps the whole thing, including killing his girlfriend, had been planned in advance.
posted by dgaicun at 11:30 PM on April 16, 2007


Interesting link theemperorhasnoclotheson.

Certainly looks like an arrest. The wrong guy? Racial profiling?

Couldn't they have carried that (other) fella a bit more carefully? I know they're in a shit-hot hurry. But wouldn't they move faster if they had a better hold of him? *shrugs*
posted by uncanny hengeman at 11:37 PM on April 16, 2007


Furthermore (from my CS-T article):

"Police believe three bomb threats on the campus last week may have been attempts by the man to test the campus’ security response, the source said"
posted by dgaicun at 11:37 PM on April 16, 2007


theemperor, there was a caller on one news program that claimed that that man apparently worked for the campus newspaper and was over aggressive in his photo taking or his question asking and the police temporarily detained him. He was released shortly later.

There were other people who were also inside the second shooting site who were also handcuffed and brought out of the building. Once outside and everything secured, they were released.
posted by yupislyr at 11:50 PM on April 16, 2007


Whatever the issue with his girlfriend, the massacre was considered in advance.

Not necessarily. He could have quarreled with and shot the girlfriend, drove home, fumed about it for an hour or so, picked up a vest, a bunch of clips, and some chains, and drove back to campus for part two.
posted by Rhomboid at 12:06 AM on April 17, 2007


Having that kind of arsenal ^^^^ on hand indicates premeditation in some degree.
posted by Roach at 12:24 AM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:29 AM on April 17, 2007


theemperorhasnoclotheson, that photo is of a reporter who has subsequently been released, at least that's the word on other sites (such as a +5 mod comment on Slashdot.) The police are saying the suspect killed himself, thus it is surely not this guy who is alive while being arrested.
posted by bhouston at 12:30 AM on April 17, 2007


.
posted by Many bubbles at 12:36 AM on April 17, 2007


I thought they got my sister in Trolley Square.

Strength.
posted by OrangeDrink at 12:49 AM on April 17, 2007


.
posted by rux at 1:05 AM on April 17, 2007


why the hours-on-end-non-coverage
Because people want to know, and because news outlets want viewers/readers


and

One thing is that it is a vivid and shocking event. Second it was perpetrated by someone acting malevolently (rather than being say, a result of a natural disaster). Third, it was unexpected. Fourth, it is an act of profound injustice.

All of these things trigger the primate fear response.


It also triggers the rubberneck response. A lot of OMG TELL ME MORE. And that is the reason for the intermediate coverage of nothing, sensationalized editing and newscasting. It used to be that stations would get back to you when they know more. I can't believe that people would take issue with substata's central point to quibble about the "biggest of its kind" issue. The events themselves are bad enough. The media's attempts to titillate with tragedy (and the fact that it apparently works) is appalling.
posted by dreamsign at 1:50 AM on April 17, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


.
posted by Fence at 2:12 AM on April 17, 2007


Oh, good. Word is that the Phelps group is thinking about crashing the funerals. Just marvelous.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 3:01 AM on April 17, 2007


God hates frags?
posted by dgaicun at 3:51 AM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


This freaks me out because about a month ago my daughter's college (a SUNY school) sent home letters urging parents to be sure that we had discussed disaster plans with our kids.

You know, what would you do if a disaster happened? The school would close, would your kid know what to do and how to get home if they are out of state.

It struck me as odd to be getting that in the middle of the spring semester. I figured that NY had passed some bill requiring the schools to get prepared.

But it makes me wonder....were the colleges warned about some potential threat?

Its so sad. I told my kids to pay attention if they hear something that sounds like a gun, run the other way if they can, hide if they can't, and if they can't hide, get ready to fight.

and
.
posted by gminks at 4:39 AM on April 17, 2007


The events themselves are bad enough. The media's attempts to titillate with tragedy.

It's disgusting, I agree. The only extent to which people "need" to know about some of the details here, is to enable them to hold law enforcement and emergency management officials accountable for maintaining adequate emergency response procedures.

The rest of it is pornography.

It's particularly bothersome when news outlets feel like they need to interview eyewitnesses to give the viewing public a "flavor" of it. They are exploiting the victims' psychological need to talk about it, come to terms with it to benefit their own and their viewer's sick voyeuristic interest in it.

Best thing we all can do at that point, is just to turn the shit off.
posted by psmealey at 4:40 AM on April 17, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]


Let me be the first to blame John Woo.
posted by furtive at 4:44 AM on April 17, 2007


And our fucking fearless administration's *first* response is to triangulate on the gun control implications. They can stoop lower, but it's going to require a chiropracter's help.

Goddamn. Now will the reporters please shut up until they know something new and true? Violence porn is right.
posted by spitbull at 4:48 AM on April 17, 2007


Oh, good. Word is that the Phelps group is thinking about crashing the funerals. Just marvelous.

i've got a GREAT idea ... when that old guy goes, let's crash HIS funeral
posted by pyramid termite at 5:00 AM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


kigpig writes "it's a display of false emotion"

I hear this kind of argument all the time. I find some sort of music really emotional? Someone who hates it says "People who listen to band X pretend to be moved by it to show off how emo they are". I find some sort of music really interesting? Someone who hates it says "People who listen to band Y claim to find it interesting because it makes them look intellectual and avant garde".

When people who neither lived in nor knew anyone who lived in New York talked about how they felt sick or cried about 9/11, I didn't empathize. When people here who know no-one at VATech talk about feeling sad or sickened or whathaveyou, I don't empathize.

But you know what? Just because I don't feel what they're feeling doesn't mean they're faking it. Their buttons are just pushed by different things than my buttons are. The world's emotions don't just happen to perfectly line up with my own. So unless you have some damn good evidence that the emotions they're describing are false, other than "I don't feel that way, and I don't understand why they would", you can shove it.

matteo writes "and yes, as obliquely explained by our usual suspect here, keep praying Allah that the killer is by any chance a Muslim"

Who is the "usual suspect"? The two known conservatives in here are Dios and Beste, and Dios hasn't even touched the Muslim issue, while Beste is praying that it isn't a Muslim.

dreamsign writes "I can't believe that people would take issue with substata's central point"

I agree that the media coverage is disgusting, but regarding Substrata's central point: What central point? He asked a lot of questions, and then kept repeating "answer my questions".
posted by Bugbread at 5:01 AM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


Candlelight vigil in SL.
posted by ColdChef at 5:04 AM on April 17, 2007


.

hoping good ole bburg can get past the media feeding frenzy and retain some of the charm that kept me there for 11 years...
posted by garfy3 at 5:38 AM on April 17, 2007


Having that kind of arsenal ^^^^ on hand indicates premeditation in some degree.

Not necessarily. If you are a member of a gun club who does Practical Pistol, you are entirely likely to own a shooting vest and multiple pistol magazines. Since we still really don't know much about the details yet, we simply can't know. He could have been a guy who shot for fun and then completely lost it. There is that two-hour gap to account for.

On the other hand, if he is an Chinese national on a visa living in a dorm, then it's hard to see how he legally could have owned any guns. According to Virginia state law:
A buyer who is not a citizen of the United States must have lawful alien status and must establish that he or she is a resident of a state by providing a valid photo identification and documentation such as a utility bill or lease agreement which would establish that he or she has resided in the state for at least 90 days prior to the date of the sale.
Given the fact that you can't have firearms on school grounds and the assumption that the dorms are on them and that was his legal place of residence, then it seems that he shouldn't have been able to legally get the weapons in the first place.

I hope the above isn't in violation of the gun control debate ban on this thread. I'm just trying to point out that we just don't know enough to assign motive.

In any event, this has been big news here in Germany and several of my friends and students have expressed condolences to me (the token American) about the event, which I pass on to all of those who are actually directly affected by this. You have their and my sympathies.
posted by moonbiter at 5:43 AM on April 17, 2007


moonbiter writes "Given the fact that you can't have firearms on school grounds and the assumption that the dorms are on them and that was his legal place of residence, then it seems that he shouldn't have been able to legally get the weapons in the first place."

I'm not following. The regulation just says you have to be a legal state resident, not that the rules of where you reside have to allow gun ownership. Why would the fact that you can't have firearms on school grounds disqualify him for legally getting the license?
posted by Bugbread at 5:58 AM on April 17, 2007


Bugbread, don't pay any attention to matteo's sign waving in obit threads. He's a far left Phelps. Same coin, different side.
posted by vronsky at 6:08 AM on April 17, 2007


posted by Roach Having that kind of arsenal ^^^^ on hand indicates premeditation in some degree.

It also indicates he found the powerups.
posted by fandango_matt at 6:14 AM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


BLACKSBURG, Virginia (AP) The Virginia Tech Police Department
identified the campus gunman as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, a student and
native of South Korea.
posted by AJaffe at 6:31 AM on April 17, 2007


I watched a few seconds of that cellphone video and had to turn it off- why are things like that offered to the public? What possible pleasure can someone get out of the image of a man bursting into a room and shooting complete innocents? I heard the gunshots and it got too real for me, then read the names of some of the dead on that guy's livejournal and I got that sneeze-feeling in my nose and a prickle in my eye- this is sadistic.

Why has the gunman not yet been identified? Or his motives? I keep getting images of this happening in my university, we sitting in a lecture theatre or labs and the doors swinging open. Such a fucking waste.
posted by D J Robertstein at 6:33 AM on April 17, 2007


The regulation just says you have to be a legal state resident, not that the rules of where you reside have to allow gun ownership.

You know, I'm not going to make the obvious connection, but here in my state we've been subjected to a solid year's drumbeat of wailing about illegal Mexican handymen being able to obtain a driver's license. And yet.
posted by dhartung at 6:36 AM on April 17, 2007


Just turned on the news, and the gunman is a 23 year old Korean student called Cho Seung Hui.
posted by D J Robertstein at 6:38 AM on April 17, 2007


.
posted by jwells at 6:49 AM on April 17, 2007


People seem to be seizing this myspace profile as his.
posted by The Straightener at 6:51 AM on April 17, 2007


Well, that sure was deleted fast.
posted by atayah at 6:53 AM on April 17, 2007


Well, the VA governer, visiting Japan, is being restrained and thoughtful.

Just thought you'd like to know.

And .
posted by lysdexic at 6:55 AM on April 17, 2007


Well, that sure was deleted fast.

The page itself was written in extremely poor English and the profile picture was a chubby Asian boy in a soccer outfit giving a sidelong glance to the camera; it wasn't his picture, I've seen it variously captioned and posted on other sites. The last login date for the page was in 2005. In the ten minutes after the news of the name was released there were about 20 comments that went up condemning him to hell, etc.
posted by The Straightener at 7:01 AM on April 17, 2007


More info: He was a student and lived in one of the dorms. He was from Centreville, Virginia, about 25 miles outside of Washington, DC. The weapons were a 9mm semiautomatic handgun and a .22 caliber handgun, both with the serial numbers obliterated. The guns were used at both scenes according to ballistics tests. The police initially detained and question the boyfriend of the woman that was killed in the dorm.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:13 AM on April 17, 2007


I'd seen the picture, too--figured it was a "fake" profile, even if made by a real person, shooter or not. Was just amazed at how quick they nabbed it off. Wonder if the same will be done for all profiles; funny, how one of the things we wondered aloud about last night was their Myspace profiles. All these immediate memorials we leave behind online.
posted by atayah at 7:15 AM on April 17, 2007


He would have to be Korean, too. he only thing worse would have been if he had been Iranian.

More fuel for hate, then.

The only thing I've wanted to know throughout is why he did it. I can feel sorry for the victims and their families, and extreme regret that such a thing should happen to innocent students, but I didn't know them and my sympathy can only go so far. Just as I didn't know anyone in the London bombings, 9/11 and so on. The fact it's in a university reminds me too much of my own university and makes it that little bit more real. Creepy.
posted by D J Robertstein at 7:28 AM on April 17, 2007


Liviu Librescu, Romanian-born engineering professor and Holocaust survivor, presumably died while holding the door shut so his students could escape through the windows.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:30 AM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Librescu was my engineering science and mechanics professor back ca. 1991-1995.
posted by Mapes at 7:42 AM on April 17, 2007


Well, I guess this explains whether or not he has had military training.
posted by Bugbread at 7:45 AM on April 17, 2007


D J Robertstein writes "He would have to be Korean, too. he only thing worse would have been if he had been Iranian.

"More fuel for hate, then."


Eh? Since when are people hating on South Korea?
posted by Bugbread at 7:46 AM on April 17, 2007


What central point? He asked a lot of questions, and then kept repeating "answer my questions".

Eh, fair point. And bad on me for projecting more structure than was there. I was reacting to some pretty flimsy rejection of his implications. Hey wait. That was your flimsy rejection.

"What's the fuss" and "why is this a headline now" are both self-evident. Asking whether this is anticipated -- I just don't understand that question at all.

But hours of non-coverage, the need to be "on the scene", the emo-cam close-ups. I've seen it time and again and it's all part of the unfolding tragedy as entertainment. Do people need constant camera sweeps of the area, reporters pressing numb survivors to talk about how "terrified" they were, and minute by minute updates to provide information? I don't think so.

You make good points about differing personal reactions, though, and not wanting to pee in the communal well I won't address that further here.
posted by dreamsign at 7:48 AM on April 17, 2007


D J Robertstein could you explain your comment? If the perpetrator were black, mexican, chinese, japanese, etc do you think they would have had less implications for racial perceptions?

Am I missing something about how koreans are viewed in the states nowadays (been living overseas for about 6 months now) also, fwiw, I am (south) korean and received full US citizenship 3 years ago. I mean, I know that Kim Jong-il has been considered a wack job, but he's kind of on a different level isn't he?
posted by like_neon at 7:50 AM on April 17, 2007


I didn't mean haiting on South Korea and I understand they are two very different countries, but to many people there is no distinction between the two. I think maybe with this sort of thing happening more people will be inclined to back the US Governments anti-N. Korea/Iran agenda.

I may be wrong, it was purely a thought.
posted by D J Robertstein at 7:50 AM on April 17, 2007


I agree that it's possible people don't really distinguish between the two countries but still, I honestly don't think people combine the unfavorable policies of the N.Korean government with prejudices against koreans in general. From my understanding, I think people are *sympathetic* to the citizens of n. korea because of what they're government is doing to them.

Politics aside though, I'm not saying koreans do not have their share of negative stereotypes... I just didn't think gun violence was one of them. We're mostly convenience store/dry cleaner/nail salon owning math nerds aren't we? ;) I just didn't see how this tragic event would "fuel" any existing view of koreans.
posted by like_neon at 7:58 AM on April 17, 2007


dhartung writes "I'm not going to make the obvious connection, but here in my state we've been subjected to a solid year's drumbeat of wailing about illegal Mexican handymen being able to obtain a driver's license. And yet."

I think it's a bit too early to say "and yet". I wouldn't be surprised if we're about to see a solid year's drumbeat about this as well. Depends on whether he got the guns legally.
posted by Bugbread at 7:59 AM on April 17, 2007


Fair enough. Like i said, it was me thinking out loud. I live in an area, however, where if one member of an ethnic minority commits a crime then the entire minority is often tarred with the same brush. It's a sad fact, but it happens.

But I agree- Asians don't have that sort of negative stereotype- it's the the muslims who are recieving that sort of unwarranted attention at the moment
posted by D J Robertstein at 8:01 AM on April 17, 2007


Well I do agree with you that this certainly doesn't help the racial stereotype. I'm already cringing at the thought of the exhaustive discussions that are about to commence, not just in mefi but in news in general (gun control debates, immigration law, racial stereotypes, college safety, etc).

It's very heartbreaking all around and I definitely feel for everyone that has been impacted.
posted by like_neon at 8:07 AM on April 17, 2007


We're mostly convenience store/dry cleaner/nail salon owning math nerds aren't we? ;)

You forgot that you all smell of kimchi. :)

I just didn't see how this tragic event would "fuel" any existing view of koreans.

I think there will be a period of the "Oooh! Don't get him angry! He's Korean and might snap!" sort of stuff. But I don't think people are going to attack Koreans on the street or spray their houses with racist graffiti like Muslims and Sikhs were after 9/11.

As for confusing the North and South, I just don't think there are that many who do. We've been allies with the South since before the Korean War. People know "Made in Korea" means it came from the South. Thinking this shooting is going to fuel some national outcry to bomb Pyongyang is silly. If a Colombian were the assailant, would there be a national outcry to bomb the bomb the crap out of Caracas?
posted by dw at 8:15 AM on April 17, 2007


It makes me sick to see it was a Korean name. I worked with a lot of Korean nationals and actually felt something in common with them, felt close to them. I found them to be relatively intense emotionally, and of course the guys all have I think it's 26 months of real military training. This cannot be seen as the actions of "one of them" a member of some inflamed anti-American nation in any way. This was one crazy nut very much going against the trend of feeling of his people, who tend to admire and aspire to much of American culture and lifestyle. The fact that it was a Korean national in a way underscores the individual derangement driving the course of action.
posted by Listener at 8:16 AM on April 17, 2007


I predict at least one comment in the next month, in some thread about this, blaming Bush for supporting tensions with North Korea, which provides a foundation for the national conscription in South Korea, which provides the gun training which may have enabled this guy to do this. I hope we're not going to be subjected to that kind of tortured logic, but I've been a reader of MeFi long enough that I'd be surprised if it didn't occur.
posted by Bugbread at 8:25 AM on April 17, 2007


Prof. Librescu should be honoured. He protected his students.
posted by QIbHom at 8:28 AM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


What a moving story about Professor Librescu goodnewsfortheinsane. What a brave, good man.
There's something always kicks me in my guts hard when I read about older people who have survived all sorts just to have their life taken by random lunacy like this. I suppose I should try to see it as I suspect he may well have, letting a life well lived end so younger people could live.
posted by Abiezer at 8:29 AM on April 17, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]


If a Colombian were the assailant, would there be a national outcry to bomb the bomb the crap out of Caracas?

I don't mean any specific actions, or public outcry- I just mean it may change people's attitudes, at the lowest level subconsciously.
It also worries me that the police chief referred to him as a "resident alien". I don't know, but I think using terms like "alien" is a bad idea for a starter. Gives the wrong sort of image.
posted by D J Robertstein at 8:32 AM on April 17, 2007


Hilzoy of Obsidian Wings wrote an excellent blog post about a friend of hers that seriously considered going on a mass killing spree (he didn't, thank God). Here's an excerpt:

It should, I think, go without saying that there was something badly wrong with this person, above and beyond the fact that he wanted to go out and kill people. It manifested itself in ways that are similar, in some respects, to major depression. If you've ever talked to someone who is very, very depressed, you know that their thoughts tend increasingly to go round and round the same topics, as though they are trapped in some sort of horrible rut, which moreover tends to constrict with time. And it's very hard to get them out of this: I often have the feeling, when talking to very depressed people, that they are trapped within some entirely smooth sphere, which I am turning over and over in my hands, thinking: there must be some way to open this -- some point which, when I press it, will cause it to unlock, or some way of twisting it that will make its halves swing open. And I try and try, pushing now on one point, now on another, and nothing works; and all the while I can see the person I'm talking to, trapped inside, and I feel helpless.
posted by Kattullus at 8:32 AM on April 17, 2007 [14 favorites has favorites]


It also worries me that the police chief referred to him as a "resident alien". I don't know, but I think using terms like "alien" is a bad idea for a starter. Gives the wrong sort of image.

Well, it is correct. He emigrated from South Korea as a child, and he wasn't a US citizen. But his family was legally here. IOW, they had their green cards.
posted by dw at 8:37 AM on April 17, 2007


Why would a mass killing spree stem from depression? Is it a result of rejection?
posted by D J Robertstein at 8:38 AM on April 17, 2007


Well, it is correct. He emigrated from South Korea as a child, and he wasn't a US citizen. But his family was legally here. IOW, they had their green cards.

I just mean the word "alien". To me it suggests someone completely seperate from society- like from outer space or something. Maybe its different in the US, but it has that sort of conotation to me in the UK.
posted by D J Robertstein at 8:41 AM on April 17, 2007


Already I'm getting reports through friends that asian community nonprofit groups back east are getting death threats and "Go back to where you came from" type messages.
posted by yeloson at 8:42 AM on April 17, 2007


Jesus Christ guys, it's not enough to get angry at the discrimination that happens every day, now you're looking for something to get pissed about? And on behalf of a spree killer, no less? Do you really think the police chief who called him a "resident alien" was making a comment about immigrants? Or people are going to change decades of stereotypes about quiet, studious Asians to include "crazy gun-wielding maniacs"? If anything, this example defies stereotypes, it doesn't reinforce them.

Damn. If this guy was black we'd be talking about how urban life creates violent conditions for residents and worrying about the KKK using him as their poster boy. If he was white this would turn into an argument over suburban frustration and people would trot out stastistics about serial killers being white men. And on and on.

Quit jousting with windmills and do something productive.
posted by schroedinger at 8:48 AM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


My point is, sometimes the public sees crazy people for crazy people and nothing more, and that "backlash" we're all so worried about is just us jumping at shadows.
posted by schroedinger at 8:51 AM on April 17, 2007


Thanks for the link Kattullus. One thing really struck me in that post:

I therefore tried very hard to figure out what to do. And it turned out that there were, as far as I could tell, no resources at all for people in my situation. (This was before the web, so that might have changed.) There were lots of books in the Counseling/Self-Help sections of bookstores with titles like: When Someone You Love Is Thinking Of Suicide; but there were no books called: When Someone You Love Is Thinking Of Going Postal. I went to the counseling center at the college I worked for, but they had very little help to offer. (Though it was sort of amusing, in a morbid way, that I only realized after saying "I have a friend..." that I would necessarily spend the next twenty minutes or so convincing the counselor that it really was a friend, not me.)

I tried every means I could think of to find some information about what on earth I should do, or even how to think about cases like this, to no avail. And I'm
good at research.

It's been what, 21 years since the Edmond post office massacre? And yet, it seems like we're still in the dark as to how and why this happens, and what a lay person can do about it. There isn't even a "What To Do When Your Friend Is Talking Mass Murder" website.
posted by dw at 8:53 AM on April 17, 2007


If anything, this example defies stereotypes, it doesn't reinforce them.

What you fail to see is that when a crazy white guy goes off shooting people or blowing people up, innocent white people don't get "randomly" harassed or attacked.

You don't see instant speculation on the entire ethnicity of people the same way as when it's POC.

Yes the killer was insane. So why do I, or people who look like me have to pay for his crime? You don't have to watch your back because of the deeds of Timothy McVeigh or Jeffrey Dahmer do you?
posted by yeloson at 8:54 AM on April 17, 2007 [11 favorites has favorites]


The guy spent half his short life here. He was American, not Korean.

(Obnoxious comment about ignorant blather deleted.)


Meanwhile, he reportedly had the words the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.
Any theories?
posted by poxuppit at 8:59 AM on April 17, 2007


Best thing we all can do at that point, is just to turn the shit off.

You're right. And for me, that includes turning off this shit and going outside for a walk. Or calling my loved ones.

I'm a Canadian, and too young to really remember the one massive school shooting we've had, but I hear this and think about my university and my town. We all talk big, but as humans we are so pathetically vulnerable to each other. Every time I go to the grocery store I am putting myself in a position where I have to trust that all the random strangers around me are not malicious or dangerously careless. It's scary, that vulnerability, but it is also what allows us to have such deep and emotionally meaningful relationships with each other. Incidents like this are tragic on behalf of the people directly involved, but also on a bigger scale. They ruin our capacity to trust each other, and lead us all down that path towards individualized, privatized, distrustful, loneliness.

And now I need to turn my computer off and go outside.

.
posted by arcticwoman at 8:59 AM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


I just mean the word "alien". To me it suggests someone completely seperate from society- like from outer space or something. Maybe its different in the US, but it has that sort of conotation to me in the UK.

It's an American legal term used to imply the person is not a naturalized citizen. Alien of the outer space kind came much later.

I'm not sure what the UK would use. I think "resident alien" could translate to "indefinite leave to remain."
posted by dw at 9:01 AM on April 17, 2007


Sepia Mutiny discussed some of the initial reaction to the shootings -- all the "it must be the Muslims!" stuff.

Seconding what yeloson said.
posted by chunking express at 9:02 AM on April 17, 2007


My point is, sometimes the public sees crazy people for crazy people and nothing more, and that "backlash" we're all so worried about is just us jumping at shadows.

Um...yeloson's comment right before yours? That shadow seems to have a figure behind it.

I think the 'alien' terminology is fine, but I can't pretend like people won't cleverly use that to link it to illegal immigrants to pre-stock a debate of this issue.
posted by cashman at 9:03 AM on April 17, 2007


Meanwhile, he reportedly had the words the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.
Any theories?


I have a conjecture, but I don't know if I really want to share it, because I've never read The Prairie, and it's really wild speculation.
posted by dw at 9:09 AM on April 17, 2007


"Broadcast reports claim that Cho [Seung-Hui] had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women. A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against 'rich kids,' 'debauchery' and 'deceitful charlatans' on campus.

Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression. They are examining Cho's computer for more evidence..."*
posted by ericb at 9:11 AM on April 17, 2007


It's bizarre that there is a discussion now about Koreans in this context. I remember reading the Ian Fleming book "Goldfinger" in which Oddjob, Goldfinger's bodyguard, is a violent Korean and Fleming wrote a lot of racist stuff about Koreans in there and it now reads like the kind of antiquated racism we can't relate to, but now this guy Cho might have single-handedly resurrected some of these old stereotypes that older people might still remember.
posted by mattbucher at 9:21 AM on April 17, 2007


I teach first-year composition. This week my class is doing small group conferences, so I'm not going to see the students as a whole until next Monday, and I'm thinking about saying a little something to my students. I want to tell them that the best protection against this sort of thing is to be decent and kind to each other, and to themselves. Anyone else have any input?

I know this should go on AskMefi, but I've got 5 days until I can ask another question, and since you're all already here...
posted by papakwanz at 9:22 AM on April 17, 2007


We're mostly convenience store/dry cleaner/nail salon owning math nerds aren't we? ;)

"His family runs a dry cleaning business and he has a sister who attended Princeton University, the source said." *

Uh-oh, let the invenctive resulting from stereotyping zip through the ether of the Internet in the upcoming days.
posted by ericb at 9:26 AM on April 17, 2007


I want to tell them that the best protection against this sort of thing is to be decent and kind to each other, and to themselves. Anyone else have any input?

Sage advice.
posted by ericb at 9:29 AM on April 17, 2007


I've had lots of "go back to your own country" comments since I can remember. However, if yeolson's report is truly correlated with recent events, that makes me very sad indeed. It's really too bad we can't avoid the topic of race as soon as it was confirmed, when it's very clear that this was an insane act by a very sick guy.
posted by like_neon at 9:37 AM on April 17, 2007


Photograph of Cho Seung-Hui, former Montreal resident.

From PubMed: Prevalence of major depressive disorder in the general population of South Korea.

Stress brought on by economic growth blamed for South Korea's suicide surge.

Suicide in South Korea.

Statistics by Country for Depression.

My sincere condolences to all the friends and families concerned, including those who knew Cho Seung-Hui, who are likely in terrible shock and grief and probably will be for many years to come, probably the rest of their lives. 33 young people died and for each one gone, an entire family and community of friends will be bereft.

May those who died rest in peace and loving thoughts of comfort for those who live to deal with grieving this tragedy.
posted by nickyskye at 9:57 AM on April 17, 2007


Meanwhile, he reportedly had the words the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.
Any theories?


I thought it was Ismail's father Ibrahim--and not Ismail--who performed the mass destruction of idols with an ax??? I can see a connection, but it would have to be one that was messed up. Or maybe I'm misremembering the story?
posted by zeugitai_guy at 9:58 AM on April 17, 2007


When I was in college every girl I knew walked around with pepper spray on a keychain. Whatever happened to that? Seems like it might be a good idea to start putting pepper spray in with the fire extinguishers. Cheap, highly effective and relatively safe. I can understand how some people might have died but 32? I still find it almost unbelievable that this was one kid with a 9mm. Please tell me that somebody at least tried to fight back.
posted by well_balanced at 9:59 AM on April 17, 2007


I'm reading some Korean forums (equivalent to Fark), and the reactions range from "I'm sincerely sorry" to "Why did the fuck we blame the Chinese earlier?" to "Great, this is so embarassing for Korea" to "It's all a conspiracy" to "This is a US gun control law problem" and back to "On behalf of my country, I'm sorry, rest in peace."

Don't take this the wrong way, but I would have rather had
the shooter be Korean-American, not Korean. If he had been, say, 2nd or 3rd gen Korean-American, no doubt people would have been confused, attempted to understand, and then perhaps the view towards Korean-Americans would have changed slightly to accommodate a larger attitude beyond the 'industrious Asian' stereotype. People would have said, "Huh. This is different. This is a US issue, I guess. What's wrong with our society?" And in the process, Asian-Americans would slowly be considered more American, more as citizens, and the common ignorant exchange
- Where are you from?
- I'm from [American City].
- No, where are you originally from?"
wouldn't prevail. Or so I had hoped.

But instead, the shooter was came to the US when he was in early elementary school, 8 or 9 years old, went through the same awkward periods of middle and high school, and eventually went to major in English at an American university. He was '1.5th gen' Asian-American, as people like me sometimes call it, but this all will get glossed over to 'resident alien', as has already done in this thread. His Korean citizenship will be discussed strongly, at least more than his American life will, and this will be treated as an outside issue, a not-our-society's-fault thing.

Oh dear. As someone who's heard "go back to where you came from" when in both Korea and America alike, this is unsettling.


.
posted by suedehead at 10:03 AM on April 17, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


D J Robertstein writes "Why would a mass killing spree stem from depression? Is it a result of rejection?"

Having peeked over that edge I can say that it's often a feeling of powerlessness. You know that saying "The best revenge is living well'? Well if you can't ever see yourself living well an option is to make sure your tormentors aren't living well.
posted by Mitheral at 10:05 AM on April 17, 2007


Any theories?

Well, there's this, as the Intarweb CSI team has noticed.

Four Google results as of now, but that will surely rise in the coming days.

Where did you get that anyway, poxuppit? It's certainly an intriguing detail, if somewhat morbid, obviously. And what's the Prairie connection, dw?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:10 AM on April 17, 2007


Oh okay, here's a source.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:12 AM on April 17, 2007


Just out of curiosity, since the shooter had South Korean citizenship, did he ever return to Korea for mandatory military service? That might explain his apparent proficiency with weapons...
posted by armage at 10:12 AM on April 17, 2007


"[Cho Seung-Hui’s] creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service.

…Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university’s English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department’s director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as ‘troubled.’

‘There was some concern about him,’ Rude told The Associated Press. ‘Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it’s creative or if they’re describing things, if they’re imagining things or just how real it might be. But we’re all alert to not ignore things ike this.’

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when or what the outcome was. Rude refused to release any of his writings or his grades, citing privacy laws."*
posted by ericb at 10:13 AM on April 17, 2007


Suggested Islamic connection (conjecture, obviously)
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:14 AM on April 17, 2007


Associated Press: Korea Fears Prejudice With Shooting Link.
posted by ericb at 10:15 AM on April 17, 2007


CNN's headline: "Police: Virginia Tech shooter an English major, 23"

Thank God our media, as hyperbolically sensationalist as it is, shirks from foregrounding the race issue on our behalf. I really think that's to its credit.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:16 AM on April 17, 2007


Just out of curiosity, since the shooter had South Korean citizenship, did he ever return to Korea for mandatory military service? That might explain his apparent proficiency with weapons...

Apparently - no.

"Cho Seung-hui...had been in the United States since 1992, Cho Byung-je, a ministry official handling North American affairs, told reporters late Tuesday." *
posted by ericb at 10:18 AM on April 17, 2007


Maybe it's a misspelling of Ishmael. This from Genesis 16:12,
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren
posted by Buck Eschaton at 10:20 AM on April 17, 2007


And what's the Prairie connection, dw?

In The Prairie, there's a character named Ishmael Bush, and one of the recurring themes of the book is the axe, which is used to bring civilization to the wild parts of America.

And being that he was talking about how decadent his other students were, maybe he was a J.F. Cooper fan and attached himself to a line in the book (which I've never read).

Like I said, wild conjecture.
posted by dw at 10:25 AM on April 17, 2007


Jeez, Debbie Schlussel is running with the Ismail thing now.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:26 AM on April 17, 2007


So the story about the cheating girlfriend, is that all just rumor? Because now they're saying he was a loner, and aside from some joke about women, having a girlfriend doesn't match with being a loner.
posted by cashman at 10:26 AM on April 17, 2007


Meanwhile, he reportedly had the words the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.
Any theories?


Here's one theory I got from the Chicago Tribune news blog:

Ismail Ax, I think it has to do with the biblical reference of Abraham taking an Ax to his son. Abraham had two sons one was Ismail (Hagar's son) the other was Isaac (Sarah's son). There is controversy over which son was the one Abraham sacrified, b/c the Bible says the first son, Isaac. Ismail was the first son (13 years older).

Another theory circulating among the Little Green Footballs crowd is that it's actually a reference to "Ismail X," a Muslim name taken on by the shooter. Given Ismail's connection to Abraham in the Bible, the Torah, and the Koran, any of the three major monotheisms could be involved here.
posted by jonp72 at 10:27 AM on April 17, 2007


Two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been officially announced, said Cho’s fingerprints were found on the two guns used in the shootings. The serial numbers had been filed off, the officials said.

Law enforcement officials told Williams that Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for the purchase of a Glock 9mm pistol in March. As a permanent legal resident, Cho was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of any felony criminal charges.


Huh? Why would you file off serial numbers if you purchased the guns legitimately? Doesn't make sense.
posted by TeamBilly at 10:28 AM on April 17, 2007


Thanks, dw. FWIW, an essay with some background on The Prairie's axe theme.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:28 AM on April 17, 2007


Apparently a Korean superstition: "Do avoid to use red ink, since red ink traditionally was used to convey an insulting message. Especially, do not write names in red ink - this symbolises death!"
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:30 AM on April 17, 2007


Except Ismail/Abraham took a knife. I don't think you can translate it as knife in Hebrew, and I don't think it's axe in the Quran, either.
posted by dw at 10:31 AM on April 17, 2007


Currently in Wikipedia, unsourced: "He signed the note "Ismail Ax", which means 'Kills for Ishmael'". Puzzling. How would it mean that? In what language?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:34 AM on April 17, 2007


What's the deal with Debbie Schlussel? Is she "slow" or something?
posted by chunking express at 10:35 AM on April 17, 2007


For those thinking about psychological profiles, read this one about Dunblane.
posted by dhartung at 10:35 AM on April 17, 2007


A "handful" of victims haven't been identified, officials said, and their identities won't be released until they are.

loljournalists!
posted by quonsar at 10:37 AM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Gun dealer posts on the 16th that he sold Glock to Cho.
posted by commander_cool at 10:38 AM on April 17, 2007


Its going to turn out to be some online name like a warcraft or xbox live account.
posted by damn dirty ape at 10:41 AM on April 17, 2007


Whoa, from the victims list over at the wikipedia:

Liviu Librescu, 76, Professor, Engineering Science & Mechanics, and Holocaust survivor. Killed while holding off the gunman so his students could escape out the window.
posted by damn dirty ape at 10:45 AM on April 17, 2007


What's the deal with Debbie Schlussel? Is she "slow" or something?

She's a tool.
posted by dhartung at 10:47 AM on April 17, 2007


fucking hell.
posted by Busithoth at 10:48 AM on April 17, 2007


Huh? Why would you file off serial numbers if you purchased the guns legitimately? Doesn't make sense.

Indicates to me that the original intention when buying the guns didn't include suicide.
posted by saraswati at 10:50 AM on April 17, 2007


Its going to turn out to be some online name like a warcraft or xbox live account.

Totally. I bet it's ax is his CS clan.
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:52 AM on April 17, 2007


She's a tool.

Is she popular like Malkin or Coulter is what I should have asked? The tool part I worked out on my own. Its kind of sad these people attract a captive audience.
posted by chunking express at 10:52 AM on April 17, 2007


CNN talks to Zach Petkewicz, whose quick thinking may have saved lives yesterday.
posted by ericb at 10:53 AM on April 17, 2007


...............................
posted by mattbucher at 10:54 AM on April 17, 2007


From TrueHoop:

"In real life, however, he teaches journalism at Virginia Tech. Last night, he responded to my email wondering if he was in Blacksburg teaching at the time of the shootings."

Yes, I've been reporting with my students all day, starting at 9:30 when my class room was locked down. Students on the floor in the darkened room making phone calls to start reporting the story. I'm very proud of them."
posted by pwb503 at 10:57 AM on April 17, 2007


More about Cho's note:
"Sources have now described the note, which runs several pages, as beginning in the present tense and then shifting to the past tense. It contains rhetoric explaining Cho's actions and says, 'You caused me to do this,' the sources told ABC News.

Sources say Cho, 23, killed two people in a dorm room, returned to his own dorm room where he re-armed and left the note..."

posted by ericb at 11:02 AM on April 17, 2007


TeamBilly writes "Why would you file off serial numbers if you purchased the guns legitimately? Doesn't make sense"

Either he planned on living or the gun used in the murders isn't the legal purchased weapon.
posted by Mitheral at 11:04 AM on April 17, 2007


Neighbors didn't know Cho Seung-Hui [video] -- "Very quiet guy."
posted by ericb at 11:05 AM on April 17, 2007


"Richard McBeef" by Seung Cho.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:10 AM on April 17, 2007


Is she popular like Malkin or Coulter is what I should have asked?

Not quite as popular, but unlike them she's had her own radio show.

Also, I'm with the online-persona theory.

And for myself, I'm awfully glad I wrote my teenage revenge fantasy short story for a college writing class long before school shootings became a thing. I had no intention (not to mention means) of living it out, but today it would probably be taken that way.
I did write a suicide poem that was a lot closer to possible enactment.
posted by dhartung at 11:11 AM on April 17, 2007


I don't feel much like contributing to the sensation-mongering in this thread except to say that a) apparently the shooter did NOT wear a black trench coat, 2) it struck me while looking at the Wikipedia article's list of victims that I don't understand going to a tech school to major in History and International Relations, and 3) "Call me Ishmael."
posted by davy at 11:14 AM on April 17, 2007


Liviu Librescu, 76, Professor, Engineering Science & Mechanics, and Holocaust survivor. Killed while holding off the gunman so his students could escape out the window.

Wow.
posted by scody at 11:15 AM on April 17, 2007


"ismailax.com is parked free, courtesy of GoDaddy.com."
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:16 AM on April 17, 2007


Looking at Librescu's research history on his department profile page, I'm almost certain he either taught or worked with at least one of my old professors. He was working on some pretty neat stuff.

I'm extra sad now.
posted by casarkos at 11:22 AM on April 17, 2007


goodnewsfortheinsane writes "'Richard McBeef' by Seung Cho."

That is some bad writing...
posted by Bugbread at 11:46 AM on April 17, 2007


it struck me while looking at the Wikipedia article's list of victims that I don't understand going to a tech school to major in History and International Relations

UVA is a highly competitive school to get into. VT isn't. It's also the largest university in western Virginia.

Texas A&M has some good liberal arts programs, despite the A&M standing for "agricultural and mechanical."
posted by dw at 11:47 AM on April 17, 2007


This is a tragedy, and my heart goes out to the victims and their families.

But I swear to gods, I want to hunt down various heads of multiple networks and smack the special effects button right out of their fear mongering, sensation building, pseudo pathos, broadcasting hands.

Report the damn news. I don't need special graphics, zoom in music and interviews with people who aren't related to the story in anything other than a publicity seeking capacity. Remember journalism class? Rule One: Report the damn news.

I'm furious about the sensationalizing of this story, and think every broadcaster responsible should be smacked with wet herrings.
posted by dejah420 at 11:54 AM on April 17, 2007


.
posted by joecacti at 11:55 AM on April 17, 2007


UVA is a highly competitive school to get into. VT isn't.

Moreso than it used to be. If I didn't know what my major was going to be, I might rather go to Tech than to Madison or Mason.

William and Mary is also hugely competitive.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:55 AM on April 17, 2007


I'm not following. The regulation just says you have to be a legal state resident, not that the rules of where you reside have to allow gun ownership. Why would the fact that you can't have firearms on school grounds disqualify him for legally getting the license?

My thinking was that a reviewer would see the application for the license, notice that the only official residence of a visiting foriegn national was a dorm on a campus, and would use common sense to turn down the applicant. After all, if he couldn't keep it at home, where was he going to keep it? I was assuming that the licensing agencies have the perrogative to turn people down even if they strictly meet the rules, but I could definitely be wrong about that.

It's a moot point anyway, since his parents have an off-campus residence.

Others have remarked upon the staggering death toll: folks, you don't need military training. I have been to many civilian pistol shoots. The speed at which even amatuers with a little bit of practice can shoot, and shoot accurately, is fucking scary. Goddamn this bastard who went and proved it in real life.

And although I curse this man's memory, I really hope this doesn't metastasize into an anti-Korean thing. He was, for all intents and purposes, American. He grew up here. What makes you a member of a society if not that? [And again I'm talking in common sense terms, and not strict legalese bulljive about what papers you have or don't have.]
posted by moonbiter at 11:59 AM on April 17, 2007


Google search for "Ishmael Ax" turned up a single link to this story (google cache) by E.D.E.N Southworth.

I don't think the story is related to this tragedy, though its possible, him being an English major, that he was exposed to Southworth.
posted by forforf at 12:06 PM on April 17, 2007


it struck me while looking at the Wikipedia article's list of victims that I don't understand going to a tech school to major in History and International Relations

Many tech schools offer majors in the Liberal Arts. For example, M.I.T. offers undergraduate majors in American Studies, Ancient and Medieval Studies, Anthropology, Comparative Media Studies, East Asian Studies, Economics, Foreign Languages & Literatures, German, History, Latin American Studies, Linguistics, Philosophy, Literature, Music, Political Science, Psychology, Russian Studies, Science, Technology, and Society, Theater Arts, Women's Studies and Writing and Humanistic Studies.
posted by ericb at 12:06 PM on April 17, 2007


Reading this helps me with understanding things a bit better. [via boingboing]

A previous classmate (the one who is providing the plays) talks about him. This seems better than all the 'journalism' I've seen up to this point about Cho.

I hope psychologists are creating plans to deal with this. Loners are nothing new, but I keep seeing people say they had no idea what to do with the guy (though he was referred for 'general' counselling).
posted by cashman at 12:07 PM on April 17, 2007


My thinking was that a reviewer would see the application for the license, notice that the only official residence of a visiting foriegn national was a dorm on a campus

He likely used his "official" family address in suburban D.C. (Centerville, VA) where he has lived since 1992 on any applications for firearms.
posted by ericb at 12:10 PM on April 17, 2007


NY Times reports Cho was a 23 yr old senior at VTech. His family moved to the US in 1992 which wouldve made him about 8 or 9. He probably did not go back to Korea for mandatory military service because service can be delayed if you're pursuing higher education (he graduated high school in 2003 which would not have given him any time to go to Korea for 2 years).

Ive known many Korean nationals who serve in their late 20s after college. In some cases, depending on their job/skills, they can forgo military service entirely in exchange for working in a Korean company, eg. Samsung, Hyundai, etc. for a period of time. Also, if he became a US citizen, he would not have to serve in the Korean military. I would bet that with relative ease, he could've been a US citizen (given his family's 15 years in the US).

None of those Korean depressive/suicidal facts make any sense here. My guess, he was a crazy person that probably identified himself more as american than korean and should never have been able to purchase guns. All guns should be illegal.
posted by paulinsanjuan at 12:14 PM on April 17, 2007


.....an English major?
posted by jokeefe at 12:16 PM on April 17, 2007


Earlier this afternoon CNN correspondant John Roberts relayed the story about fellow corrrespondant John Henry's off-camera interviews with emergency personnel who had to attend to the scene in Norris Hall. They were obviously troubled by the gory scene(s), but were particularly disturbed by the ringing and buzzing mobile phones on each of the bodies, knowing full-well that it was parents, friends and family members calling to see if their child, friend or sibling was okay. What a haunting image.
posted by ericb at 12:18 PM on April 17, 2007 [12 favorites has favorites]


*correspondent*
posted by ericb at 12:19 PM on April 17, 2007


"Richard McBeef" reads fine if you imagine it as a Kids in the Hall sketch.
posted by mazola at 12:20 PM on April 17, 2007


This reminds me of an excellent novel by Terry Woo about the day to day lives of five 1.5th/2nd generation Asian kids in Toronto. Contains one murder/suicide.
posted by anthill at 12:38 PM on April 17, 2007


I didn't realize that she taught at Virginia Tech. Poet Nikki Giovanni gave a rousing closing statement at this afternoon's Virginia Tech Convocation -- which ended with sustained applause and the crowd shouting in unison their "Old Hokie" Cheer.
posted by ericb at 12:44 PM on April 17, 2007


i'm no psychiatrist but that kid's got a raging oedipus complex. John from McBeef could be the next Hamlet.
posted by gman at 12:48 PM on April 17, 2007


Mr. Brownstone, by Seung Cho, is, shockingly enough, far worse writing than Richard McBeef.
posted by gatorae at 12:48 PM on April 17, 2007


After hearing about the mass shootings, I sent one of my friends a Facebook message asking him if he knew anything about Seung Cho and if he could have been involved. He replied: "dude that's EXACTLY what I was thinking!
posted by jonp72 at 12:49 PM on April 17, 2007


pithy's referred system of sending a txt message to all students in case of an emergency should be a done deal on most, if not all campuses already.

submit your number, they put it in a database, and send it out in case of emergency. the teachers would be the ones to focus/worry about then, as student saturation of cell phone usage has to be in the 90th percentile.
posted by Busithoth at 12:49 PM on April 17, 2007


After reading both stories, I'm assuming that Cho had been sexually abused in the past. Serious issues with adult males "raping" him, molesting him. To think, too, that if he hadn't done what he did, he might have graduated with a college degree. Then what?
posted by billysumday at 12:53 PM on April 17, 2007


To think, too, that if he hadn't done what he did, he might have graduated with a college degree. Then what?

Oh No, College Degrees In The Hands Of Madmen? I don't follow.
posted by cortex at 12:54 PM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


Then what? Like, a) he doesn't have a grasp of the English language. Good luck getting a job. And b) what does a person who refuses to speak to other people do... you know, as an occupation?
posted by billysumday at 12:56 PM on April 17, 2007


I second the sexual molestation theory, and I haven't even gotten to Mr. Brownstone yet.
posted by jragon at 12:58 PM on April 17, 2007


Mr. Brownstone, by Seung Cho, is, shockingly enough, far worse writing than Richard McBeef.

So basically, these works reveal the killer as a total fucking moron. Well, I sure didn't see that coming.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:58 PM on April 17, 2007


So basically, these works reveal the killer as a total fucking moron. Well, I sure didn't see that coming.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:58 PM on April 17 [+]


Are you being facetious? If I recall, the Columbine kids were pretty intelligent.
posted by billysumday at 12:59 PM on April 17, 2007


Oh No, College Degrees In The Hands Of Madmen?

And -- oh, noes -- some even have/had advanced degrees.
posted by ericb at 1:00 PM on April 17, 2007


billysumday: I don't think a fixation on sodomy as the most reprehensible form of violence tells anything about the writer other than issues of defensive masculinity and male privilege. It seems to be a hot trick lately to act like anal rape is the worst thing a person can do, and it's really just a huh huh huh culture thing. This fuck shot people, and probably is consoling himself in hell that he was no sodomite.

Also, lots of people with ESL problems are highly employable if you overlook their occasional misspellings and malapropisms.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:00 PM on April 17, 2007


Could this be related?

Woo Bum-Kon was a Korean police officer who carried out the worst incident of spree killing in known history, killing 58 (including himself), and wounding 35 in Gyeongsangnam-do, South Korea.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 1:02 PM on April 17, 2007


what does a person who refuses to speak to other people do... you know, as an occupation?

Well, there's always this profession.
posted by ericb at 1:02 PM on April 17, 2007


Further, these writing reveal the guy to be dumb. Really dumb. In a way that some people are sort of, well, physically inhibited from being intelligent. Perhaps he just should not have gone to college. How does someone like that even get into college? He didn't talk to anyone. Ever. Then, when he does turn in his assignments, they are psychotic. Now, I don't claim that college should be run like a high school - call the parents when little Johnny acts oddly - but rather, that people who clearly should not be in college and do not benefit from it shouldn't be admitted, or allowed to stay.
posted by billysumday at 1:04 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Then what? Like, a) he doesn't have a grasp of the English language. Good luck getting a job. And b) what does a person who refuses to speak to other people do... you know, as an occupation?

It's maybe appalling that a lousy writer would get so far into an English program, but Cho's writing honestly doesn't read worse, technically, than your average American. People in general aren't writers; they certainly aren't playwrights or good with dialogue. Hell, you should see the email I get from coworkers. And writing skill does not necessarily synch up with spoken fluency; I've read accounts of Cho as a loner so far, but not as a poor speaker.

So we've got someone who would have perhaps scraped through a college program; a bit of a loner, perhaps not terribly hireable for some jobs. That isn't really that much of an outlier, on the face of it.
posted by cortex at 1:05 PM on April 17, 2007


Ive known many Korean nationals who serve in their late 20s after college. In some cases, depending on their job/skills, they can forgo military service entirely in exchange for working in a Korean company, eg. Samsung, Hyundai, etc. for a period of time. Also, if he became a US citizen, he would not have to serve in the Korean military. I would bet that with relative ease, he could've been a US citizen (given his family's 15 years in the US).

All true. With a green card and being in college in the U.S., his family and he had many available avenues to delay or avoid military service.

I wonder if the English major thing is a factor? He might not have had the support of his parents, who could have pushed him to major in something more financially promising. Like many immigrants from all over, many Korean parents feel they've sacrificed a lot to give their kids a chance of a life in the US, giving up more "respectable" jobs in Korea in the process. And they want their kids to get "respectable" jobs. And clearly an english degree is not going to be as helpful as a tech degree if you want to get a job with Samsung.

I'm Korean-American, and back when I was deciding between two colleges based on whether I wanted to major in English (esp. poetry) or compsci, you can guess which one my parents nudged me towards.
posted by shortfuse at 1:05 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


billysumday: I don't think a fixation on sodomy as the most reprehensible form of violence tells anything about the writer other than issues of defensive masculinity and male privilege. It seems to be a hot trick lately to act like anal rape is the worst thing a person can do, and it's really just a huh huh huh culture thing. This fuck shot people, and probably is consoling himself in hell that he was no sodomite.

My thoughts, too -- I've been in more than a few creative writing workshops myself, and frankly, Cho's plays are not exactly sui generis. The dementia is evident with hindsight, but if I'd read these in a class, I'd figure this was just a closet case with issues, among them his inability to write.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:09 PM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


moonbiter writes "After all, if he couldn't keep it at home, where was he going to keep it?"

Range/Gun club?
posted by Mitheral at 1:09 PM on April 17, 2007


Could this be related?

Are you fucking shitting me?

Though I suppose they are related in the same way any two crimes are.
posted by chunking express at 1:10 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Are you being facetious? If I recall, the Columbine kids were pretty intelligent.

Their actions say otherwise. Their SATs may have been off the charts, for all I know.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:14 PM on April 17, 2007


Also, lots of people with ESL problems are highly employable if you overlook their occasional misspellings and malapropisms.

I tend to agree. Also, judging by his prolonged stay in the US and from reading his writing (admittedly no flowering prose, but not too far from common fare in a creative writing class from what I can gather), and lastly, considering I am really an ESL speaker myself (albeit from what might be considered a more comfortable linguistic background, as far as English is concerned), I would have to conclude that in my opinion, his English isn't bad at all. I'd wager a person like him would - despite the real and inevitable obstacles along the way - have been quite able to find employment one way or another in an English-speaking country.

(Except for the homicidal maniac thing, of course. And I don't intend for that remark to be funny - let's just be reminded that whether he spoke and wrote English well or not has no bearing on the fact that this is a grim and unfathomable tragedy. It goes without saying, but still.)
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:17 PM on April 17, 2007


Apparently there was a heroic prof who held off the shooter to save the lives of students. Amazing story, but still -- two handguns, 30 killed. No Pancor Jackhammer, no AK-47.

I'm not saying I'd have been the guy to try and tackle him while he was re-loading, multiple times, but I'm surprised someone didn't manage it.

It's overly morbid I realize. But still, I've been thinking about it.
posted by bardic at 1:18 PM on April 17, 2007


Wha? Shooting people doesn't really speak to their intelligence, IMHO. Their emotional intelligence, maybe. The Unabomber was pretty darn smart.
posted by billysumday at 1:18 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Could this be related?

Are you fucking shitting me?


them slanty-eyes all know each other, right?
posted by quonsar at 1:18 PM on April 17, 2007


The devil is in the details.
posted by Saddo at 1:18 PM on April 17, 2007


I teach playwriting and have read a whole variety of plays on a whole variety of subjects. Some of them were much more violent and depraved than these and were written by perfectly lovely people who were social and friendly.

All his plays prove, in my opinion, is that he was a bad writer.

The fear he provoked in his classmates, however, is another matter entirely. That they were afraid to offer him criticism for fear that he might snap is a much bigger deal than what he wrote in the plays.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:21 PM on April 17, 2007


quonsar writes "them slanty-eyes all know each other, right?"

Worse than Canadians in that regard.
posted by Mitheral at 1:26 PM on April 17, 2007


>Some of them were much more violent and depraved than these and were written by perfectly lovely people who were social and friendly.

Joey Michaels, what you just wrote is too calm and logical to make sense. Everyone knows you can look deep into the soul of anyone through any of their homework assignments. What would armchair mefite psychologists be talking about if that wasnt 100% possible and accurate? Next you'll tell me that if he had a couple more friends he'd be a great stand-up guy.

Hate, violence, murder, and mental illness are lot more complex than "look at these telling plays" and "schools should screen out loners."
posted by damn dirty ape at 1:28 PM on April 17, 2007


billysumday writes "he doesn't have a grasp of the English language."

Huh? He's a lousy writer, sure, but his writings indicate the same level of verbal competence as your random shopper at Safeway. I've seen horribly written things by people who sound just fine when talking.

kittens for breakfast writes "Their actions say otherwise. Their SATs may have been off the charts, for all I know."

If your definition of "moron" is "shooting people", then why would you say "I'm not surprised he's a moron" when reading his writings? I mean, at the point when you know he shot people, you already knew he was a moron.

That's like walking outside in the pouring rain with an umbrella, and then stepping in a puddle and saying "I'm not surprised it's raining".
posted by Bugbread at 1:28 PM on April 17, 2007


The fear he provoked in his classmates, however, is another matter entirely. That they were afraid to offer him criticism for fear that he might snap is a much bigger deal than what he wrote in the plays.

Of course, there's the question of fear provoked vs. fear fostered—how much of that was isolated reaction and how much was feedback and reaction-to-reaction. Was a raised eyebrow amplified by the group dynamic, etc. And it's pretty much unanswerable/unmeasurable now; objective seperation from the context at this point would be damned hard.
posted by cortex at 1:29 PM on April 17, 2007


I personally see no or very little ESL issue in his plays. And I agree with Joey Michaels in that I've been in workshops where people wrote some pretty violent/awful/depraved/"um.." things, but--you know, we were conceiving them as just that, fiction. Cathartic fiction, in a lot of ways, and these are in now way good fiction, but fiction nonetheless. It's very much a suspension of disbelief kind of environment.

But jeez, as seen in hindsight, they are disturbing. I'm not sure if it's pity I'm feeling--not for the young man as he was yesterday, but for all those days leading up to yesterday. Obviously there was some shit going on, long before it went down.
posted by atayah at 1:30 PM on April 17, 2007


I think the plays don't read like ESL so much as a high-schooler who shops at Hot Topic a bit too much.
posted by casarkos at 1:32 PM on April 17, 2007


The media and blog frenzy has already turned me numb. I've read the story of the heroic Israeli professor in eight or nine places. People complain about violence porn, then propagate it on their journals.

I don't get it.
posted by swerve at 1:32 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Unsurprisingly, Faux News is spinning the M Word on the "Ismail Ax" detail.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:34 PM on April 17, 2007


billysumday writes "Further, these writing reveal the guy to be dumb. Really dumb. In a way that some people are sort of, well, physically inhibited from being intelligent."

It's also possible that he just banged them out in 15 minutes before class started. Just quick stream-of-consciousness bullshit until he hit the page minimum. It certainly reads that way.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:36 PM on April 17, 2007


I guess that what I'm saying is that it's disappointing and sort of alarming that a 23 year old English major, a senior preparing to graduate, would be such an awful writer. From the basis of reading the two plays, it seems like he was only capable of writing about one kind of thing, and that was of violence perpetrated by young adults on older adults. Older adults who molested/raped the younger adults. If you were the teacher, you wouldn't think anything of that?

As to whether or not colleges should screen out oddballs, sure, why not? When you get accepted by a university, should you not have to interact with someone first? From all the stories I've been reading, he spoke to absolutely nobody. Never said a word. When asked to write his name, he would put down a question mark. The kid didn't belong in college. He didn't want to be in college. Not everyone should feel forced to go to college. I don't know how you filter certain people out - clearly it's nothing more than wishful thinking. In hindsight, yes, things seem to have more clarity. But when you have students emailing each other saying, "Dude, I thought it was going to be that kid, too!" then obviously people saw something wrong with the guy and it wasn't completely out of the blue.
posted by billysumday at 1:36 PM on April 17, 2007


If your definition of "moron" is "shooting people", then why would you say "I'm not surprised he's a moron" when reading his writings? I mean, at the point when you know he shot people, you already knew he was a moron.

That's like walking outside in the pouring rain with an umbrella, and then stepping in a puddle and saying "I'm not surprised it's raining".


That's pretty much exactly what I AM saying. Nothing about this guy seems especially surprising.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:36 PM on April 17, 2007


Mark? Medication?
posted by thirteenkiller at 1:37 PM on April 17, 2007


I don't get it.

Personally, I am looking for whatever answers I can find by ferreting out details, even though I know that details are not answers.

I like that the internet gives me the tools to research this on my own. But when a cable station puts us into 24/7 CARNAGE REPORT 2007 mode, it's different:

1. It's eclipsing other things I may want to know about
2. They do it longer than I want
3. They deliver it in such a crass way

So. Information: yes. "Coverage": no thank you.
posted by jragon at 1:37 PM on April 17, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]


Yeah, having been in quite a few creative writing classes, those plays just read more like blow-offs, last-minute fill-up-the-page-with-bullshit efforts.

"Richard McBeef" seems to deliberately invoke Hamlet, MacBeth, and presumably one of the Richards, but Shakespeare it ain't. Still, it does read like a bizarre comedy sketch, with deliberately shocking material (and from reading many submissions to workshops and a college journal -- yawn, least interesting way to be interesting).
posted by dhartung at 1:38 PM on April 17, 2007


Please don't use the phrase "the M Word." You're encouraging people to avoid thoughtful analysis of the construction of cultural sensibilities. Islam should not be a taboo subject, just as it should not be and absolute evil.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:42 PM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


As to whether or not colleges should screen out oddballs, sure, why not? When you get accepted by a university, should you not have to interact with someone first?

I find that suggestion completely fucked. Not Being Weird should not be a necessary qualifier for higher education.

From all the stories I've been reading, he spoke to absolutely nobody. Never said a word.

That's my freshman roomie for the first four months we were in school. He came out of his shell; I'm flying out to play guitar at his wedding in a few days.
posted by cortex at 1:43 PM on April 17, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]


It's also possible that he just banged them out in 15 minutes before class started.

After all, one of the plays had an entire page of the characters quoting guns and roses.
posted by drezdn at 1:45 PM on April 17, 2007


From the basis of reading the two plays, it seems like he was only capable of writing about one kind of thing, and that was of violence perpetrated by young adults on older adults. Older adults who molested/raped the younger adults.

For what it's worth, I read something different:

McBeef:
Out of control kid spews vile at his stepdad. Stepdad tries to talk to child, mostly keeping his temper. Then he puts his hand on the kid's leg, leading to more angry verbal abuse. Kid is saved by mom. Kid frames stepdad (or airs genuine complaint, but it seems to me to be a lie). Kid continues abusing stepdad.

Dad kills kid in single blow.

Brownstone:
Kids hate teacher. Spew filth about how awful teacher is. Make fun of teacher to face. Flaunts authority. Wins 5 million dollars at a casino they aren't old enough to be in.

Teacher lies to cop and gets all the money.


The common thread I see is that the kids are angry, but in some way deserving of the smack down they end up getting from authority in the end.
posted by jragon at 1:46 PM on April 17, 2007


Weird is different than not being able to interact with people. It was an exaggerated point. Ultimately, I suppose I don't understand the culture of a large university - I went to a smaller school and if a person chose to be this anti-social, there would have been some sort of an intervention, as many students at VT claimed should have or was about to happen.

Coming out of your shell is great. I'm really happy for your roommate!!
posted by billysumday at 1:47 PM on April 17, 2007


drezdn writes "After all, one of the plays had an entire page of the characters quoting guns and roses."

Yeah, seriously. Quick lyrics search, cut & paste, only one page to go!
posted by mr_roboto at 1:47 PM on April 17, 2007


kittens for breakfast writes "That's pretty much exactly what I AM saying. Nothing about this guy seems especially surprising."

Of course it doesn't. If you admit evidence that supports your assertion ("See! He writes like a moron!"), and throw out evidence that doesn't support your assertion (good SAT grades), then, hey, whatayou know, you'll always find your assertion supported. Nothing can surprise you. That's a tautology.
posted by Bugbread at 1:52 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


It's strange but not at all surprising that the media is harping on his being a dirty English major (like I was).

But was he a creative writing major? Or did he have a concentration in play-writing or something? Becuase I took some creative writing courses, but to get the degree most of what I did was take survey courses and write a big long critical paper my senior year.

I dunno. It really doesn't matter in the long-run, if only to provide fodder for the video-games/Marilyn Manson/no God in the classroom crowd. Everybody has an angle now, except for 32 souls in Blacksburg.
posted by bardic at 1:52 PM on April 17, 2007


And, my last thought before I have to go: this kid did show signs. I don't blame anyone for not seeing them, but putting them together now, it seems really obvious that this kid had problems and was going to lash out. Wrote very violent material in writing classes. Spoke to no one. Had no friends. Lit dorm room on fire. Stalked women around campus. Refused to interact in class. Intimidated classmates, who were already afraid that he might come to class and do something violent. I'm looking for something that is not a cliche here, like "volunteered on the weekend" or "had great relationship with his grandma" but so far I haven't seen anything.
posted by billysumday at 1:53 PM on April 17, 2007


I finally got around to looking at the various lists of victims that have been compiled around the internet, because while all of my friends were safe, I still had this sinking feeling in my stomach that I knew someone who was in Norris.

Turns out that my French professor from freshman year, Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, was one of those killed.

My hands are shaking as I write this. She was an absolutely wonderful woman. Kind and witty, though still very respectful of her students; she was probably the only French professor I've ever had who didn't poke fun at me for being an engineer.

So, um, yeah. This is weird.

.
posted by malthas at 1:56 PM on April 17, 2007


Weird is different than not being able to interact with people.

Weird is sometimes precisely not being able to interact with people. This is not hypothetical. The human psyche is enough of a mystery and a mess that we'll likely never suss out cause vs. correlation for weirdo loners who flip out, but it sure doesn't help to suggest that rejecting the rejected is a viable solution. Charismatic, likeable people do insane and terrilbe things too, for example; and most loners don't go on killing sprees.
posted by cortex at 1:57 PM on April 17, 2007


"Conservative Nathaniel Blake at Human Events Online links positively to John Derbyshire’s post, then writes that the students at Virginia Tech should feel 'heartily ashamed' for not acting more bravely:
'College classrooms have scads of young men who are at their physical peak, and none of them seems to have done anything beyond ducking, running, and holding doors shut. Meanwhile, an old man hurled his body at the shooter to save others.

Something is clearly wrong with the men in our culture. Among the first rules of manliness are fighting bad guys and protecting others: in a word, courage. And not a one of the healthy young fellows in the classrooms seems to have done that. …

Like Derb, I don’t know if I would live up to this myself, but I know that I should be heartily ashamed of myself if I didn’t. Am I noble, courageous and self-sacrificing? I don’t know; but I should hope to be so when necessary.'"*

posted by ericb at 1:58 PM on April 17, 2007


Uh ... reports are coming out about heroic efforts of other students and faculty members -- example.
posted by ericb at 2:00 PM on April 17, 2007


ericb, I think the question is worth asking at a later date. Effectivly, he had one handgun that was capable of killing (the .22 going off probably caused a lot of panic though, and compounded the tragedy). There's been some speculation that he might have had an extended clip, but it sounds like he didn't. He probably did have to stop and re-load multiple times.

My larger question is this, however -- cops were on campus, presumably, soon after the 7:15 shooting. Where were they when the second wave of shootings began?

Obviously, framing the issue as to indict namby-pamby librul godless America is disgusting.
posted by bardic at 2:05 PM on April 17, 2007


That's a tautology.

Not really. I suspected a thing was so; it was so. The offhanded reference to the Columbine kids acing their SATs is kind of irrelevant, since no evidence was put forth in defense of the Columbine kids as being especially intelligent. But even if it had been, we then have to run with the idea that testing well is an indicator of intelligence. It isn't, necessarily.

On the other hand...

"Emotional intelligence" sounds kinda pop-psych to me, but it IS maybe what I'm talking about here. Regardless of how well one can take things apart and put them back together, memorize historical fact, perform algebraic equations, etc., if ultimately the best you've got in terms of problem-solving is "I'm gonna kill a lot of people because, y'know, fuck 'em, and then I'm gonna eat a bullet because, y'know, fuck everybody," you may be somewhat limited as a person. It's probably unfair to conflate that limitation with a lack of intelligence, as it must accompany a lack of empathy and (usually) self-preservation in order to become physically dangerous. That said, it is my understanding that the brilliant psycho killer is pretty much the exclusive property of fiction.

(As to the Unabomber, I'm not sure he counts in all of this, since I at least would consider him a terrorist. I'm not so sure that's really the same thing as Cho or the Columbine kids.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:10 PM on April 17, 2007


Wow, a person who shoots a bunch of random people isn't a terrorist? What is he/she, then?
posted by billysumday at 2:13 PM on April 17, 2007


"Like Derb, I don’t know if I would live up to this myself, but I know that I should be heartily ashamed of myself if I didn’t. Am I noble, courageous and self-sacrificing? I don’t know; but I should hope to be so when necessary."

I think we'd all like to think so, but since he really has no idea at all, maybe Blake should shut the fuck up. What a douchelord.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:14 PM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


Wow, a person who shoots a bunch of random people isn't a terrorist? What is he/she, then?

A homicidal maniac. A terrorist would presumably be involved with terrorism, which, latter day dilution and abuse of the word notwithstanding, has more to do with fostering fear than with flipping out and shooting up a college and then capping yourself. Terrorist != anyone who does anything that could be described as terrifying.
posted by cortex at 2:16 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


Wow, a person who shoots a bunch of random people isn't a terrorist? What is he/she, then?

I mean in the sense that the Unabomber seemed to have political goals. I'm not saying what he did was any better -- it wasn't -- just that I'm not sure whether the motivation comes from the same place.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:16 PM on April 17, 2007


and most loners don't go on killing sprees.

I don't think most "weirdo loners who flip out" even go on killing sprees with guns. I think people are assumed to flip out all the time. Many of those people are weirdos and some are loners. It's just the addition of a deadly weapon that changes it from being things thrown around a room or someone assaulted, to a bunch of people dead.

As far as why people didn't defend or attack - they had no way of knowing if it was one person shooting with two guns or 5 people armed to the teeth with automatic weapons.

Additionally, they were told to "sit there and wait", and so they listened to authority. Essentially the same force that says "sit there and wait" at a red traffic light. Different dangers, but the same voice that we all follow every day.
posted by cashman at 2:17 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


quonsar writes "them slanty-eyes all know each other, right?"

please wake me up when all the reactionary racist backlash is over.
posted by cazoo at 2:20 PM on April 17, 2007


If we'er going to start testing people, lets at least keep these tests out of the schools and put them in the office that hands out gun licenses and permits. Want a gun license to buy a handgun? Pass this 500 dollar mental assessment test first. Signs of aggression, history of abuse, etc? No permit for you.

Its amazing how much more difficult my drivers license was to get compared to my FOID card. Hell, I gave them my own photo for the FOID! If this tragedy changes things, i really hope they dont crackdown on 'weird' kids applying for college but on potentially murderous gun owners. I'm not holding my breath.
posted by damn dirty ape at 2:21 PM on April 17, 2007


kittens for breakfast writes "But even if it had been, we then have to run with the idea that testing well is an indicator of intelligence. It isn't, necessarily. "

Ah. Ok. That position makes a lot more sense. Sorry.

billysumday writes "Wow, a person who shoots a bunch of random people isn't a terrorist? What is he/she, then?"

A mass murderer.

That's like saying "What, a person who has a vice-president isn't the President of the United States?"
Well, it may be. Or it may be the president of another country. Or the president of a club. Or the president of a company.

"Terrorist" is a subset of "mass murderer", not a synonym.
posted by Bugbread at 2:25 PM on April 17, 2007


billysumday writes "As to whether or not colleges should screen out oddballs, sure, why not? When you get accepted by a university, should you not have to interact with someone first? "

No. Many brilliant (and admittedly non-brilliant) people are extremely introverted.

bardic writes "My larger question is this, however -- cops were on campus, presumably, soon after the 7:15 shooting. Where were they when the second wave of shootings began?"

All the way on the other side of campus dealing with the first crime scene, what appears to be a substantial distance away.
posted by Mitheral at 2:26 PM on April 17, 2007


Boing Boing reports that this lj has entries about the accused shooter, including a photo of him in her flickr stream. The two entries about him are in Indonesian, however. I tried running them through an online translator but I don't know if I got more than the gist of them. I have to say I am troubled what the press might do if there does turn out to be an Islamist streak in Cho's online interests (which I don't think anyone can say with confidence yet).
posted by aught at 2:27 PM on April 17, 2007


Wait, actually, that's inaccurate too. A person who takes hostages and makes political demands is a terrorist, even if they haven't killed anyone.

So we'll have to define "terrorist" as "someone who uses fear or coercion with the goal of achieving political goals". Which, hey, what a surprise, is the actual definition of "terrorist".
posted by Bugbread at 2:27 PM on April 17, 2007


This seems as good a time as any to give some thought to the victims (BBC).
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:32 PM on April 17, 2007


All the way on the other side of campus dealing with the first crime scene, what appears to be a substantial distance away.

An open crime scene, presumably, since they either didn't have the shooter or had the wrong one. Either way, some pretty grave mistakes may have been made. It's too early to get into blame now, but these are important questions.
posted by bardic at 2:37 PM on April 17, 2007


aught writes "Boing Boing reports that this lj has entries about the accused shooter, including a photo of him in her flickr stream. The two entries about him are in Indonesian, however. "

That's not the same guy. It's not even the same name (Seung-Hoo as opposed to Seung-Hui).
posted by mr_roboto at 2:46 PM on April 17, 2007


Boing Boing reports

Yeah, that's all I needed to hear. Maybe Cory can spin this into an anti-DRM rant before its all over.
posted by damn dirty ape at 2:52 PM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


Well, as it's a transliteration (romanization), I'd say that's not relevant in and of itself. But no, it's probably not him.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:02 PM on April 17, 2007


That was in response to mr_roboto.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:03 PM on April 17, 2007


goodnewsfortheinsane writes "no, it's probably not him."

It's been pretty thoroughly debunked in the Flickr comments for the picture.
posted by Bugbread at 3:20 PM on April 17, 2007


Cowardice? Reacting appropriately in this kind of high-stress situation isn't a matter of cowardice, it's a matter of training. There's an automatic fight-or-flight reaction to these kinds of things. It's easier for the "fight" reaction to kick in when you're being punched in the face, but if it's a gun? People are taught to be afraid of guns, and for damn good reason--you have to hope the shooter's reaction time is longer than your ability to react in a moment and run across a classroom and tackle him. Sure, it's more likely you'll succeed if a bunch of people are going for him--but then you're depending on multiple people to be trained to automatically react aggressively when confronted with a gun. This is a difficult thing, something that is mental and not related to physical ability at all. Those commentators are demanding we have a culture of soldiers.

People might bring up situations like United 93 as comparison, but remember, these do not require the instinctual reaction, people are given the time to choose bravery. They have time to calm down, assess the situation, and plan a method of attack. If a shooter was taking a classroom hostage, rather than just killing as many people as possible, we might have seen a similar reaction from these students. As it is, it's tremendously unfair for people to attribute what is a matter of instinctual conditioning to cowardice.

I'm currently taking a rape defense class that is based around this principle. With every move we're trained to yell "No" or "Stay Back". If we yell "No" when we're supposed to yell "Stay Back", the instructor corrects this. Of course, the words don't improve the move, but there's a good reason. The point is to keep the woman yelling and moving, to train her body and voice to react precisely and automatically. So when she must react in seconds her muscles know exactly what to do, and she doesn't have time to freeze up in fear.
posted by schroedinger at 3:25 PM on April 17, 2007


quonsar writes "them slanty-eyes all know each other, right?"

please wake me up when all the reactionary racist backlash is over.


ah, sleeping must explain your confusion. pay attention.
posted by quonsar at 3:26 PM on April 17, 2007


Yeah absolutely, especially the chin comment is spot-on.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:26 PM on April 17, 2007


“[Former classmate Ian McFarlane] said he and other students ‘were talking to each other with serious worry about whether [Cho] could be a school shooter.’

‘We always joked we were just waiting for him to do something, waiting to hear about something he did,’ said another classmate, Stephanie Derry. ‘But when I got the call it was Cho who had done this, I started crying, bawling.’

…’He was very quiet, always by himself,’ neighbor Abdul Shash said. Shash said Cho spent a lot of his free time playing basketball and would not respond if someone greeted him.

Classmates painted a similar picture. Some said that on the first day of a British literature class last year, the 30 or so students went around and introduced themselves. When it was Cho's turn, he didn't speak.

On the sign-in sheet where everyone else had written their names, Cho had written a question mark. ‘Is your name, `Question mark?'‘ classmate Julie Poole recalled the professor asking. The young man offered little response.

Cho spent much of that class sitting in the back of the room, wearing a hat and seldom participating. In a small department, Cho distinguished himself for being anonymous. ‘He didn't reach out to anyone. He never talked,’ Poole said.

‘We just really knew him as the question mark kid,’ Poole said.” *
posted by ericb at 3:55 PM on April 17, 2007


I saw the CNN interview with Zach Petkewicz, the kid with other students thought to barricade the door into the classroom with tables and their brute force, where they were able to keep Cho out and leave him only to fire a couple of shots through the door. Quick thinking saved the lives of the 11 students in the classroom.

And having seen him break down at the suggestion that he is a hero, I, an evangelical Christian with conservative political and social tendencies, would like to say the following to John Derbyshire:

Suck my dick, you motherfucking asshole. A pile of shit for brains like you can't tell the difference between a hero and a coward, so why don't you just shut the fuck up for once in your fucking life. People like Petkewicz remind me that there is cleverness in youth, people like Librescu honor in elders. People like you remind me there are motherfucking assholes in every age group whose small dicks don't deserve rescue by the clever and the honorable.

Thank you. I will be e-mailing that to him shortly.
posted by dw at 3:56 PM on April 17, 2007 [12 favorites has favorites]


Of course Derbyshire is an asshole--he's so very overcompensating for his own lack of guts he probably gets hard when he speaks of "bravery" and "heroes", like it's all a movie or something.

This is making me gag: Suzanne Malveaux of CNN just compared President Bush's appearance today at Virginia Tech to his famous "bullhorn moment" where he allegedly brought the country together after 9/11.
...
Ugh. The bullhorn scene was not a "healing moment" in tragedy. It was a war cry, a far different thing. It did not bring the country together --- virtually the entire world was united after 9/11. Within months Bush's policies, especially the preposterous invasion of Iraq, began to tear the country apart and made us loathed throughout much of the world. God, I hope this isn't one of "those moments" because his track record is just terrible. ...


You don't need assholes like Derbyshire when the media makes assholes into heroes and "national healers" just for speaking and appearing.
posted by amberglow at 4:03 PM on April 17, 2007


Is this thread still going on? What's the VT fight song? The Hokey Pokey!

And quonsar was making an ANTI-racist JOKE in response to THIS idiocy.

Jeez. I'm going away again.
posted by davy at 4:08 PM on April 17, 2007


dw - as a Marxist anti-war atheist college professor, let me say hear, hear. Exactly what Mr. Derbyshire deserves to be told.

If Imus can be fired for what he said (I'm glad), and Bill Maher for telling the truth that whatever the 9/11 hijackers were, they weren't the "cowards" they were being branded as and more than people who drop bombs from the sky on civilians, then Mr. Derbyshire should lose his NRO column for this, and the NRO should be publicly shamed.

Why is it that every tragedy becomes an opportunity for political grandstanding these days? Is it the cable TV spectacle? Hunger for a story we can believe in? A need to see Big Daddy authority figures standing on piles of rubble with bullhorns?

A national moment of media silence would be a thing of beauty right now.
posted by spitbull at 4:13 PM on April 17, 2007


I used to drive a cab in Baltimore and I’ve been center stage at one shooting with multiple shots fired and been threatened with guns and knives on other salty occasions. Every time reality kicked in with basic instinct and I skated. But that was driving a cab, where I was running the show, not sitting in a university classroom. The social dynamics and cultural expectations are as different as night and day.

In any case, having read those “plays” I can’t help but think that VaTech failed three times. First they let this idiot almost graduate as an English major. Second they never flagged him as a potentially dangerous nutcase. Third they weren’t proactive enough after the initial murders.

On second thought I’m pretty dubious about the capacity of any bureaucracy to correct for the second and the third failures. OK, and the first as well.
posted by Huplescat at 4:21 PM on April 17, 2007


Why is it that every tragedy becomes an opportunity for political grandstanding these days? Is it the cable TV spectacle?

With Derbyshire, it dosen't even seem like political grandstanding, it seems like personal grandstanding, which is almost worse! He took the "oppurtunity" of a tragedy to write about great he is.
posted by Snyder at 4:24 PM on April 17, 2007


. . . whose small dicks don't deserve rescue by the clever and the honorable.

So dumb people are murderers, and men with small dicks are immoral, and shy people are scary.

You learn a lot about American fears and prejudices when things like this happen. Basically "inferior" people are dangerous. Everybody that is below average in any valued domain: education or intelligence, number of friends or extraversion, attrativeness or masculinity, is actually a potential murderer and threat to public security.
posted by dgaicun at 4:25 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]


In terms of anyone politicizing this or using this for their own agendas, it started in the White House itself shortly after the shootings: ... As far as policy, the President believes that there is a right for people to bear arms ...

Remember this as you hear more calls for gun control (and there should be more).
posted by amberglow at 4:32 PM on April 17, 2007


Like those people in Seung-Hu's class who "just knew" it was him when they saw the news; after all he was quiet. Idiots.

Smug that some killings allow them to flaunt confirmation bias of their bigotry.
posted by dgaicun at 4:33 PM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]


dgaicun writes "So dumb people are murderers, and men with small dicks are immoral, and shy people are scary.

"You learn a lot about American fears and prejudices when things like this happen. Basically 'inferior' people are dangerous. Everybody that is below average in any valued domain: education or intelligence, number of friends or extraversion, attrativeness or masculinity, is actually a potential murderer and threat to public security."


You learn a log about dgaicun's view of things when he posts things like this. If someone says "a man with a small dick doesn't deserve to be rescued", he somehow interprets that to mean "a man with a small dick is a potential murderer and threat to public security".

I think you're parsing what people say at a below average level, so perhaps you have an agenda. And understanding people is a valued domain. It may surprise you to know that, while I consider yo