Restaurant Criticism in the Digital Age
June 27, 2007 7:57 AM Subscribe
An ecclesiastical history of the food web, the media’s response to online restaurant criticism, and why Mario Batali is an idiot. Mario Batali hates food bloggers. ABC News thinks anyone with an internet connection can have an impact. The San Francisco Chronicle believes the web is now a free-for-all for online amateurs. Is the media offering a fair and balanced critique of the online space?
This post was deleted for the following reason: self-link, banned -- mathowie
Why does traditional media keep using the term "cyberspace"? Is there really anyone who uses that term with a straight face anymore?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 8:06 AM on June 27, 2007
posted by OverlappingElvis at 8:06 AM on June 27, 2007
Anonymous message board reviews are worthless IMO - half the time it seems like someone with a beef is just trying to air it in this 'cyberspace'.
posted by 2shay at 8:08 AM on June 27, 2007
posted by 2shay at 8:08 AM on June 27, 2007
Is the media offering a fair and balanced critique of the online space?
Yes.
The question is: is the online space/blogosphere/cabal offering a fair and balanced critique of the media?
And also, as some Wired blogger once summed up MetaFilter: will rhetorical questions save the world?
posted by NekulturnY at 8:27 AM on June 27, 2007
Yes.
The question is: is the online space/blogosphere/cabal offering a fair and balanced critique of the media?
And also, as some Wired blogger once summed up MetaFilter: will rhetorical questions save the world?
posted by NekulturnY at 8:27 AM on June 27, 2007
Doesn't the article in the first link (and this ensuing Metafilter post) basically prove Batali's point about food bloggers, and bloggers in general? Their quote is that Batali "hates" food bloggers, and is an idiot; the opening sentence in Batali's well-reasoned article clearly states that he does not hate food bloggers. Now, we have a Metafilter post saying that Batali hates food bloggers, and some blogger's lazy sensationalism has inched its way towards Internet fact, in direct contravention of reality. Fucking stupidity. Plus, Babbo rules.
posted by saladin at 8:30 AM on June 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by saladin at 8:30 AM on June 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
Batali might be an idiot, but the number of misused apostrophes in the first link suggests that that blogger isn't all that bright, either.
posted by solid-one-love at 8:32 AM on June 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by solid-one-love at 8:32 AM on June 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Well - Batali did name his article "Why I hate Food Bloggers" - and reasons that he doesn't actually hate anything because it takes up too much energy.
I found Batali's article to be rather poorly constructed - he even notes the “shoddy journalism that will be picked up and promulgated by the rest of the gray zone and march its merry way toward the center of the road.” when his own piece is completely lacking journalistic integrity.
posted by 2shay at 8:41 AM on June 27, 2007
I found Batali's article to be rather poorly constructed - he even notes the “shoddy journalism that will be picked up and promulgated by the rest of the gray zone and march its merry way toward the center of the road.” when his own piece is completely lacking journalistic integrity.
posted by 2shay at 8:41 AM on June 27, 2007
do essays require journalistic integrity?
posted by boo_radley at 8:51 AM on June 27, 2007
posted by boo_radley at 8:51 AM on June 27, 2007
do essays require journalistic integrity?
They might consider it when critiquing the integrity of others.
posted by 2shay at 8:54 AM on June 27, 2007
They might consider it when critiquing the integrity of others.
posted by 2shay at 8:54 AM on June 27, 2007
Batali doesn't hate food bloggers; now DC area chef Carole Greenwood, she HATES bloggers, to the point of having her lawyer file a cease & desist against someone from DCFoodies to prevent them from using the pictures they took of their meal.
She also hates substitutions and doesn't care what you think:).
posted by Challahtronix at 8:54 AM on June 27, 2007
She also hates substitutions and doesn't care what you think:).
posted by Challahtronix at 8:54 AM on June 27, 2007
If you don't have anything nice to say, welcome to the internet.
posted by cog_nate at 9:12 AM on June 27, 2007
posted by cog_nate at 9:12 AM on June 27, 2007
RE: Carole Greenwald. "Please be advised that my client, Buck's Camping and Fishing, has requested that I contact you with a demand that you cease and desist from showing any pictures that you may have taken of the food and facilities of the said restaurant."
That is insane - like Batali, it seems that she would have any criticism restricted to an elite few.
posted by 2shay at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2007
That is insane - like Batali, it seems that she would have any criticism restricted to an elite few.
posted by 2shay at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2007
2shay, did you actually read Batali's article? At no point does he suggest restricting criticism "to an elite few." The thrust of his essay was simply that blogs have a distressing tendency to favor careless sensationalism over fact (a point that I think you would have a hard time refuting), and this sensationalism in turn gets aped up and down the Internet until it becomes fact. The article in your first link is a fine example of this, as it boldly states that Mario Batali hates food bloggers, even though his essay clearly begins and ends with him specifically saying that he does not hate food bloggers.
Your post here, in turn, has continued to advance the process already set in motion, whereby Batali's essay about how he, in no uncertain terms, does not hate food bloggers, somehow now proves that he does, in fact, hate food bloggers.
posted by saladin at 9:40 AM on June 27, 2007
Your post here, in turn, has continued to advance the process already set in motion, whereby Batali's essay about how he, in no uncertain terms, does not hate food bloggers, somehow now proves that he does, in fact, hate food bloggers.
posted by saladin at 9:40 AM on June 27, 2007
just try smacking your dog with an "ezine"...
posted by quonsar at 9:48 AM on June 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by quonsar at 9:48 AM on June 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Most of you would want anyone critiquing your work to be really, really good at what they do. Would you trust an amateur to come into your workplace and then tell others what kind of job you're doing? I submit that most of us wouldn't.
The thing is, the amateur may be just dandy at his job. But you want to know that the information being passed around about you is accurate, and the opinion of someone who is highly skilled. This is your passion, your job, and your future, not just a meal somewhere. It's understandable that some folks are wary of food blogging.
It's also understandable that people want to blog about meals they've eaten, especially when a great many restaurants cost an arm and a leg to enjoy.
Ah, the beauty of the internet: Everyone has a different opinion, and feels free to think about only their perspective.
posted by SaintCynr at 9:59 AM on June 27, 2007
The thing is, the amateur may be just dandy at his job. But you want to know that the information being passed around about you is accurate, and the opinion of someone who is highly skilled. This is your passion, your job, and your future, not just a meal somewhere. It's understandable that some folks are wary of food blogging.
It's also understandable that people want to blog about meals they've eaten, especially when a great many restaurants cost an arm and a leg to enjoy.
Ah, the beauty of the internet: Everyone has a different opinion, and feels free to think about only their perspective.
posted by SaintCynr at 9:59 AM on June 27, 2007
Saladin -
I've read all the articles.
While Mario says he doesn't hate them, I believe its just semantics on his part. He's clearly prejudiced against blogging. The author of the first article is entitled to semantics as well - I doubt he believes Batali is an idiot.
I suppose my biggest fault with Batali is seeing him group food bloggers into one lump who supposedly "rant their snarky vituperatives from behind the smoky curtain of the web. "
The only example he offers in support of this conclusion come from an article written in a NEWSPAPER. A "factoid written by the hapless NY Post real estate/food hack Braden Keil"
The blogsoop article does a good job outlining the actual nature of the landscape (granted the author may be biased) - he even provides statistics which show that blogs do not "have a distressing tendency to favor carless sensationalism over facts."
posted by 2shay at 10:02 AM on June 27, 2007
I've read all the articles.
While Mario says he doesn't hate them, I believe its just semantics on his part. He's clearly prejudiced against blogging. The author of the first article is entitled to semantics as well - I doubt he believes Batali is an idiot.
I suppose my biggest fault with Batali is seeing him group food bloggers into one lump who supposedly "rant their snarky vituperatives from behind the smoky curtain of the web. "
The only example he offers in support of this conclusion come from an article written in a NEWSPAPER. A "factoid written by the hapless NY Post real estate/food hack Braden Keil"
The blogsoop article does a good job outlining the actual nature of the landscape (granted the author may be biased) - he even provides statistics which show that blogs do not "have a distressing tendency to favor carless sensationalism over facts."
posted by 2shay at 10:02 AM on June 27, 2007
okay - the first article doesn't go so far as to show statistics related careless sensationalism (is this quantifiable??) -it does provide data on the prevalence of "snark vituperatives"
posted by 2shay at 10:09 AM on June 27, 2007
posted by 2shay at 10:09 AM on June 27, 2007
The big problem with amateur food journalism, IMO, is that the "just get it out there" ethos of blogging is inherently antithetical to restaurant criticism- many amateur food critics rate a restaurant based on one visit; professional critics go multiple times.
While the very top of the restaurant scale should be expected to be consistently excellent, it's not uncommon for even very good places to have an off night, food-wise. Mistakes in the kitchen happen, it's a fact of life. If you don't want to go back to some place because your pasta was overcooked or your appetizers took too long, that's your prerogative, but to publicly dismiss the establishment because of it is just dishonest.
Bad service, on the other hand, should be pointed out as often and as loudly as possible.
posted by mkultra at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
While the very top of the restaurant scale should be expected to be consistently excellent, it's not uncommon for even very good places to have an off night, food-wise. Mistakes in the kitchen happen, it's a fact of life. If you don't want to go back to some place because your pasta was overcooked or your appetizers took too long, that's your prerogative, but to publicly dismiss the establishment because of it is just dishonest.
Bad service, on the other hand, should be pointed out as often and as loudly as possible.
posted by mkultra at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to come up with a cyberopinion on this whole matter.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 10:43 AM on June 27, 2007
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 10:43 AM on June 27, 2007
Most of you would want anyone critiquing your work to be really, really good at what they do. Would you trust an amateur to come into your workplace and then tell others what kind of job you're doing? I submit that most of us wouldn't.
So only professional eaters should be allowed to criticize? That's pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I work in sofware, our critics are vociferous and many. We actually try to listen to their opinions and glean whatever wisdom we can from them. Sure, some are just rants and some are incomprehensible but that's part of the game. If you want to serve the public in your business, that's your choice and it comes with a few strings, one of which is that they are allowed to discuss, in public, their experience at your establishment, welcome to the real world.
posted by doctor_negative at 10:49 AM on June 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
So only professional eaters should be allowed to criticize? That's pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I work in sofware, our critics are vociferous and many. We actually try to listen to their opinions and glean whatever wisdom we can from them. Sure, some are just rants and some are incomprehensible but that's part of the game. If you want to serve the public in your business, that's your choice and it comes with a few strings, one of which is that they are allowed to discuss, in public, their experience at your establishment, welcome to the real world.
posted by doctor_negative at 10:49 AM on June 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
2shay, sorry if I was a bit over-confrontational in my previous posts (or maybe snarkily vituperative).
I agree that Batali's essay is poorly supported (as regards his use of the Post example). However, I think in all the Batali piece is decidedly light on both hate and idiocy. His most controversial point seems to be that many (not all) food bloggers are sometimes mean-spirited and unreliable. He then goes on to say not that they should stop what they're doing, but simply that he "expects" and "wants" more from them. The blogsoop article, in turn, calls him an idiot and says that he hates food bloggers, despite his essay's careful insistence to the contrary, and in so doing fulfill Batali's prophecy, which I find sadly ironic. Or amusing. Or boring. I'm having a hard time deciding.
Nevertheless, thanks for the post, 2shay, it was quite interesting.
posted by saladin at 11:04 AM on June 27, 2007
I agree that Batali's essay is poorly supported (as regards his use of the Post example). However, I think in all the Batali piece is decidedly light on both hate and idiocy. His most controversial point seems to be that many (not all) food bloggers are sometimes mean-spirited and unreliable. He then goes on to say not that they should stop what they're doing, but simply that he "expects" and "wants" more from them. The blogsoop article, in turn, calls him an idiot and says that he hates food bloggers, despite his essay's careful insistence to the contrary, and in so doing fulfill Batali's prophecy, which I find sadly ironic. Or amusing. Or boring. I'm having a hard time deciding.
Nevertheless, thanks for the post, 2shay, it was quite interesting.
posted by saladin at 11:04 AM on June 27, 2007
I work in sofware, our critics are vociferous and many. We actually try to listen to their opinions and glean whatever wisdom we can from them.
Software is different. It either works or it doesn't. People often have opinions about how software should work, but by and large you don't see Joe Blogger ranting in public about such subjective things; rather, these kind of opinions tend to slant toward posts about how much you love such-and-such software.
posted by mkultra at 11:11 AM on June 27, 2007
Software is different. It either works or it doesn't. People often have opinions about how software should work, but by and large you don't see Joe Blogger ranting in public about such subjective things; rather, these kind of opinions tend to slant toward posts about how much you love such-and-such software.
posted by mkultra at 11:11 AM on June 27, 2007
>>So only professional eaters should be allowed to criticize? That's pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Great, because that isn't what I said, nor was it the sum total of the statement. I went on to state the issue from both sides, that was merely one side of the post. Did you finish reading it, or just get disgusted because you disagreed with that piece and not go any further?
posted by SaintCynr at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2007
Great, because that isn't what I said, nor was it the sum total of the statement. I went on to state the issue from both sides, that was merely one side of the post. Did you finish reading it, or just get disgusted because you disagreed with that piece and not go any further?
posted by SaintCynr at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2007
Don't like amateur reviews Mario? Open a restaurant in Australia then.
posted by Chuckles McLaughy du Haha, the depressed clown at 11:25 AM on June 27, 2007
posted by Chuckles McLaughy du Haha, the depressed clown at 11:25 AM on June 27, 2007
Software is different. It either works or it doesn't.
Go read some of the Mac vs. Windows flamewars and tell me how often real functionality is the basis for any of the expressed opinions. A lot of the opinions are expressed in the form of: Your application does not meet my arbitrary requirement and is therefore useless.
SaintCyr, I know I was essentially putting words in your mouth, but the premise you proposed was absurd. If a doctor cuts off the wrong arm I don't need to be a surgeon to call him/her incompetent. When dealing with the public, you really have to take the good with the bad. Is it fair that possibly good restaurants get bad mouthed by tasteless know-nothings. No, but life isn't always fair. I'm sure there are more than a few professional critics who who have written bad reviews of good restaurants based on some bias of there own.
posted by doctor_negative at 11:36 AM on June 27, 2007
Go read some of the Mac vs. Windows flamewars and tell me how often real functionality is the basis for any of the expressed opinions. A lot of the opinions are expressed in the form of: Your application does not meet my arbitrary requirement and is therefore useless.
SaintCyr, I know I was essentially putting words in your mouth, but the premise you proposed was absurd. If a doctor cuts off the wrong arm I don't need to be a surgeon to call him/her incompetent. When dealing with the public, you really have to take the good with the bad. Is it fair that possibly good restaurants get bad mouthed by tasteless know-nothings. No, but life isn't always fair. I'm sure there are more than a few professional critics who who have written bad reviews of good restaurants based on some bias of there own.
posted by doctor_negative at 11:36 AM on June 27, 2007
Professional journalists go to jail, they get blacklisted and loose their life-long careers for screwing up. Amateur journalists spew polemic poo to high heaven and no one cares.
posted by stbalbach at 11:37 AM on June 27, 2007
posted by stbalbach at 11:37 AM on June 27, 2007
Saladin, I tend to get worked up also, no worries.
[Batali] "expects" and "wants" more from them. The blogsoop article, in turn, calls him an idiot
This was the idiocy blogsoop was noting:
"Batali’s Pizzeria Mozza is the most blogged about restaurant in the last six months; BlogSoop lists 17 reviews, all of which had positive things to say."
"Why alienate a group that respects your cooking? Why not value their opinions"
posted by 2shay at 12:08 PM on June 27, 2007
[Batali] "expects" and "wants" more from them. The blogsoop article, in turn, calls him an idiot
This was the idiocy blogsoop was noting:
"Batali’s Pizzeria Mozza is the most blogged about restaurant in the last six months; BlogSoop lists 17 reviews, all of which had positive things to say."
"Why alienate a group that respects your cooking? Why not value their opinions"
posted by 2shay at 12:08 PM on June 27, 2007
"Professional journalists go to jail, they get blacklisted and loose their life-long careers for screwing up. Amateur journalists spew polemic poo to high heaven and no one cares." Obviously some people care. Maybe give the average reader of amature food blogs credit to realize they are reading an amature review.
posted by Sailormom at 12:24 PM on June 27, 2007
posted by Sailormom at 12:24 PM on June 27, 2007
Professional journalists go to jail,
Name one restaurant critic that's gone to jail for something related to restaurant criticism. Not all journalists are created equal.
posted by doctor_negative at 12:30 PM on June 27, 2007
Name one restaurant critic that's gone to jail for something related to restaurant criticism. Not all journalists are created equal.
posted by doctor_negative at 12:30 PM on June 27, 2007
Professional journalists go to jail,
Name one restaurant critic that's gone to jail for something related to restaurant criticism. Not all journalists are created equal.
posted by doctor_negative at 12:30 PM on June 27, 2007
Name one restaurant critic that's gone to jail for something related to restaurant criticism. Not all journalists are created equal.
posted by doctor_negative at 12:30 PM on June 27, 2007
>>If a doctor cuts off the wrong arm I don't need to be a surgeon to call him/her incompetent.
I wasn't advocating that at all. I was simply saying that the most trustworthy opinions generally come from the most informed sources. It can be anyone.
posted by SaintCynr at 1:38 PM on June 27, 2007
I wasn't advocating that at all. I was simply saying that the most trustworthy opinions generally come from the most informed sources. It can be anyone.
posted by SaintCynr at 1:38 PM on June 27, 2007
I've known people who did restaurant reviews for daily and weekly papers, and if you think they had any unique qualifications for the job you would be very mistaken.
I helped one of them prep the restaurant portion of a "Best of" issue once that consisted of us going down the list and just picking whoever came to mind and making shit up.
posted by 2sheets at 2:15 PM on June 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
I helped one of them prep the restaurant portion of a "Best of" issue once that consisted of us going down the list and just picking whoever came to mind and making shit up.
posted by 2sheets at 2:15 PM on June 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
SaintCynr writes "I wasn't advocating that at all. I was simply saying that the most trustworthy opinions generally come from the most informed sources. It can be anyone."
True. Don't you think most people can figure that out on their own?
posted by krinklyfig at 3:25 PM on June 27, 2007
True. Don't you think most people can figure that out on their own?
posted by krinklyfig at 3:25 PM on June 27, 2007
"Is the media offering a fair and balanced critique of the online space?"
Since when makes it sense to treat your competition nicely?
I have been working in publishing for over 20 years. Journalists and most authors in general hated Joe Public and responding to reader's letters or criticism. It was a oneway street, with the MSM in control.
Today that control is redistributed and journalists suddenly have to 'talk' to their customers or even experience that these uneducated fools do a better job then they do.
I think overall consumer web criticism is a good thing and most people have developed the skills to read ratings and comments on eBay, Amazon and blogs to research what they wanna know about a vendor, product, service ...
Good thing these intranets.
posted by homodigitalis at 4:45 PM on June 27, 2007
Since when makes it sense to treat your competition nicely?
I have been working in publishing for over 20 years. Journalists and most authors in general hated Joe Public and responding to reader's letters or criticism. It was a oneway street, with the MSM in control.
Today that control is redistributed and journalists suddenly have to 'talk' to their customers or even experience that these uneducated fools do a better job then they do.
I think overall consumer web criticism is a good thing and most people have developed the skills to read ratings and comments on eBay, Amazon and blogs to research what they wanna know about a vendor, product, service ...
Good thing these intranets.
posted by homodigitalis at 4:45 PM on June 27, 2007
after reading what he wrote and then what the various bloggers say about what he wrote, I had to come to the conclusion that he was entirely right.
Talk about wilful distortion.
Here is Batali's original quote that was turned into him "hating" food bloggers:
" I’m not so much about these blogs by anonymous people saying nasty things about you. I think it’s getting pretty stupid. If there’s something interesting, and there’s somebody editing it and taking care of it, I’m down with it. But some of those people are just bit with vituperative anger and just want to rail on you."
only an idiot blogger -- someone who could only ever be a blogger because they clearly possess no ability to read, parse and interpret a moderately complex sentence -- could turn this into Batali hating all food bloggers.
posted by lastobelus at 5:33 PM on June 27, 2007
Talk about wilful distortion.
Here is Batali's original quote that was turned into him "hating" food bloggers:
" I’m not so much about these blogs by anonymous people saying nasty things about you. I think it’s getting pretty stupid. If there’s something interesting, and there’s somebody editing it and taking care of it, I’m down with it. But some of those people are just bit with vituperative anger and just want to rail on you."
only an idiot blogger -- someone who could only ever be a blogger because they clearly possess no ability to read, parse and interpret a moderately complex sentence -- could turn this into Batali hating all food bloggers.
posted by lastobelus at 5:33 PM on June 27, 2007
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If you spend any time reading anonymous food reviews (as many New Yorkers do), you learn pretty quickly how to spot the crank. Take City Search reviews, in which every group of glowing reviews is sure to have at least one one-star review which was clearly written by an asshole. It seems we've sometimes replaced respecting certain individuals with respecting the will of the crowd as a whole.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:06 AM on June 27, 2007