The Gren leap forward
July 19, 2007 3:51 PM Subscribe
The Green Leap Forward "Environmentalism is China’s fastest-growing citizen movement. Beijing isn’t cracking down on these new activists—it’s empowering them."
As with all Chinese environmentalists I met, Ma exhibited an urgency devoid of discernible ideology.
posted by ioesf at 4:10 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by ioesf at 4:10 PM on July 19, 2007
Wow, I'm really glad that they're doing this. It's about time somebody stepped forward with the planet's--and in turn mankind's--best interests in mind. Finally someone besides Gore has realised what needs to be done to take a step in the right direction. This really is a selfless move on China's part, and I for one--
What?
Hosting what?
The Olympics, you say?
Oh. Well.
At least they're cleaning up for *some* reason.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 4:17 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
What?
Hosting what?
The Olympics, you say?
Oh. Well.
At least they're cleaning up for *some* reason.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 4:17 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
I was there 4 years ago and there was already an initiative toward greening - might not just be an olympics thing. They were planting trees like they were going out of style. it was quite loverly.
posted by nihlton at 4:28 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by nihlton at 4:28 PM on July 19, 2007
Global Village Beijing, China's foremost environmental NGO. From a western point of view it's weird to hear people talk about environmentalism and spirituality as going hand in hand. Maybe that's part of our problem.
posted by andihazelwood at 4:35 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by andihazelwood at 4:35 PM on July 19, 2007
Ninety percent of the country’s cities have contaminated groundwater. ... On bad days, a quarter of Los Angeles’s smog originates in China.
This reeks of horseshit.
Contaminated water? Contaminated with what exactly? And is any other country terribly different? A quarter of the smog? Really? What part -- the ozone, NO2, VOCs or the particulates? And why L.A.? Seattle and S.F. are closer...
Anyone have any real information? Or is this just a journalist passing along stats from a press release without checking them?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:07 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
This reeks of horseshit.
Contaminated water? Contaminated with what exactly? And is any other country terribly different? A quarter of the smog? Really? What part -- the ozone, NO2, VOCs or the particulates? And why L.A.? Seattle and S.F. are closer...
Anyone have any real information? Or is this just a journalist passing along stats from a press release without checking them?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:07 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Ah, semantics.
posted by boo_radley at 5:08 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by boo_radley at 5:08 PM on July 19, 2007
We'll see if this lasts after 2008.
True environmentalism is a radical form of activism. It advocates deep changes to the economy, to the system of laws, and to the attitudes of the average citizen.
China's economy is booming, but still decentralized and deeply corrupt. Clean up one city, and the big polluters will move to another with more easily bribeable officials. Any attempted economic reform that isn't compatible with enriching the powerful will fail.
You can try and make laws and then apply them to the whole country, but enforcement will be erratic and selective. China does not have rule of law, it has rule BY law -- the rulers use the law as an instrument of control. Any environmental laws would be toothless without massive purges and incentive programs -- from the street cop to the provincial head.
The most likely avenue of reform is the average Chinese person -- making them think about their environmental decisions at home and at work, and encouraging them to protest polluters. A concerted effort by the government and NGOs is just the thing to do this, and I'm glad to see it happening as profiled in the article.
Again, though, we'll see what happens after 2008. The government just shut down the China Development Brief, an critical tool for NGOs in China to understand what's going on across the country. I think that if environmentalism didn't make for good press, Zhao Zhong would be fired or in jail already. When the Chinese government feels that the eyes of the world are turned elsewhere for a moment, there will almost certainly be a "correction" to appease the hardliners.
posted by xthlc at 5:17 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
True environmentalism is a radical form of activism. It advocates deep changes to the economy, to the system of laws, and to the attitudes of the average citizen.
China's economy is booming, but still decentralized and deeply corrupt. Clean up one city, and the big polluters will move to another with more easily bribeable officials. Any attempted economic reform that isn't compatible with enriching the powerful will fail.
You can try and make laws and then apply them to the whole country, but enforcement will be erratic and selective. China does not have rule of law, it has rule BY law -- the rulers use the law as an instrument of control. Any environmental laws would be toothless without massive purges and incentive programs -- from the street cop to the provincial head.
The most likely avenue of reform is the average Chinese person -- making them think about their environmental decisions at home and at work, and encouraging them to protest polluters. A concerted effort by the government and NGOs is just the thing to do this, and I'm glad to see it happening as profiled in the article.
Again, though, we'll see what happens after 2008. The government just shut down the China Development Brief, an critical tool for NGOs in China to understand what's going on across the country. I think that if environmentalism didn't make for good press, Zhao Zhong would be fired or in jail already. When the Chinese government feels that the eyes of the world are turned elsewhere for a moment, there will almost certainly be a "correction" to appease the hardliners.
posted by xthlc at 5:17 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
I can tell you that the particulates that reach Japan are quite bad, especially in April. Something has to be done.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:30 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by KokuRyu at 5:30 PM on July 19, 2007
I think one of the biggest reasons China has so much industrial-driven pollution in the first place is that overseas firms demand ever cheaper production, and can (and do) move production elsewhere, leaving local officials and execs who take bribes and get kickbacks in the lurch.
Unless you can impart in people a sense, from childhood, that pollution isn't OK and that one has a responsibility to protect the environment, and those people are able to force polluters to clean up - through rule of law (not likely in China) or financial penalties (again, not likely in China) - you can't get beyond spot enforcement of regulations from a far-removed capital. Society has to internalize goals and set standards for itself, and without the right to challenge state and corporate power (often the same thing in China) through independent organizations people trust, those goals and standards won't be set.
I'm from LA, so it's not like I'm used to good air quality compared to most of the rest of America, but when I visited China on a high school trip in 2001, by day three or four, we all had massive coughing fits, headaches, bleary eyes, and could actually see soot on our clothes when we took off clothes that had been exposed to outside air all day. Pollution in Mexico City and Jakarta isn't as bad, in my experience, as Beijing and Xi'an.
posted by mdonley at 5:32 PM on July 19, 2007
Unless you can impart in people a sense, from childhood, that pollution isn't OK and that one has a responsibility to protect the environment, and those people are able to force polluters to clean up - through rule of law (not likely in China) or financial penalties (again, not likely in China) - you can't get beyond spot enforcement of regulations from a far-removed capital. Society has to internalize goals and set standards for itself, and without the right to challenge state and corporate power (often the same thing in China) through independent organizations people trust, those goals and standards won't be set.
I'm from LA, so it's not like I'm used to good air quality compared to most of the rest of America, but when I visited China on a high school trip in 2001, by day three or four, we all had massive coughing fits, headaches, bleary eyes, and could actually see soot on our clothes when we took off clothes that had been exposed to outside air all day. Pollution in Mexico City and Jakarta isn't as bad, in my experience, as Beijing and Xi'an.
posted by mdonley at 5:32 PM on July 19, 2007
Do they have a TV commercial with a fake indian crying about the river yet? When they get one of those, then I'll believe that they're progressing.
One step at a time. Let them get an owl first.
posted by jonmc at 5:57 PM on July 19, 2007
One step at a time. Let them get an owl first.
posted by jonmc at 5:57 PM on July 19, 2007
Here's a great map of China's environmental problems, especially those related to water.
posted by mdonley at 9:30 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by mdonley at 9:30 PM on July 19, 2007
I won't live in Beijing again. It's like living in a tire fire. Even after being there for months, and taking up smoking, I could still smell the air.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:27 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:27 AM on July 20, 2007
Wow, I thought I was the only one still listening to Gren!
posted by Eideteker at 5:32 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by Eideteker at 5:32 AM on July 20, 2007
Let them get an owl first.
You'd think that'd be the end of it, but you might be mistaken!
posted by prostyle at 6:24 AM on July 20, 2007
You'd think that'd be the end of it, but you might be mistaken!
posted by prostyle at 6:24 AM on July 20, 2007
Here's a group of particulary depressing photos about pollution in China.
posted by of strange foe at 8:36 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by of strange foe at 8:36 AM on July 20, 2007
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I'm going to go make a blog.
posted by humannaire at 3:58 PM on July 19, 2007