I'm not generally one to be moved by this kind of thing, but I found that post to be incredibly sad and heartening at once. I have met three people in my life similarly afflicted, but not one of them ever seemed to realize that they had a problem, at least they never let on that they did. They would just trash one relationship after another and keep on going. That fact that this guy is aware gives me some hope for him, but it also most be incredibly hellish to have that awareness.
Thanks for posting this. posted by psmealey at 11:32 AM on August 6, 2007
I know of psychologists and psychiatrists that won't even accept them as patients due to their propensity to manipulate. I imagine very few functional people with mental disorders face as tough a time, except pedophiles. posted by Gnostic Novelist at 11:33 AM on August 6, 2007 [3 favorites]
Wow. Quite a few of the things he described sound really familiar. When does it cross over to be pathological? posted by punkfloyd at 11:38 AM on August 6, 2007
punkfloyd: When it causes a trail of chaos, broken relationships, and financial failure through your entire life. When your best friend, who you have known since elementary school, moves across the country in part to get away from you, because you have exhausted her with your ongoing and insoluble problems. When nothing helps. When everyone, everyone is against you, and nobody understands, and your rage over this is just beneath the surface and can manifest at any time, over the slightest perceived insult. When everyone who gets drawn into your orbit-- because you are bright and charismatic-- eventually backs away, reeling from the experience, because they expected to be able to fix you, or help you, and eventually realized that it wasn't possible. When you've never held a job, or not for more than a few months. When you leave the country and your teenager hasn't seen you for years; on the other hand, even your parents won't send you money for the flight for a visit because after the last one they can't cope with the possiblity that they're going to be left cleaning up after you, both literally when you abandon a suite full of garbage and furniture and rotten food and emotionally, one more time. When your other former best friend, the one from high school, will hear the phone ring at 4 a.m., let it pick up, and stand there in the dark listening to your frantic messages, to you begging this friend to pick up and talk to you, and she will stand there unmoving, listening and waiting for the call to end.
That person, the one listening to the message, is me. Believe me, there's a big difference between everyday insecurity and self-esteem issues and what it means to be borderline. posted by jokeefe at 11:51 AM on August 6, 2007 [44 favorites]
BPD is fascinating, but he's right that most sane human beings should avoid such people at all costs. From my understanding of the underlying mechanism, these are people who are basically really, really, sensitive. They're incapable separating the current sentence coming out of your mouth from the one before or after, so if that one sentence, hell, if that one word is critical, they're feeling criticized and abused. It doesn't matter if you've prefaced the criticism with a ton of praise, the moment is the only thing they're capable of. BPDs are like perfect Buddhists: they let go of the past and focus on the present with such desperate attention that it's the only thing they CAN feel. This isn't all bad: if it's a nice moment, they feel like they're on top of the world. They become addicted to that, probably in something like the technical sense of addiction. They become increasingly manipulative, constantly trying to control what's happening RIGHT NOW, and to keep the stream of comfort and praise and love and attention coming.
Everyone's a little bit like this: we all would prefer people be nice rather than mean. But most people can handle constructive criticism, can separate the particular moment from the general relationship, and feel basically whole and accepted even in the bad moments. BPDs can't. In that sense, their fears and vulnerabilities are completely realized in the reactions of the people around them. They're really not likeable, insofar as anyone who spends enough time around them will find them a roller-coaster of emotions, most of which are unhealthy. Others feel like extras in the BPD's extremely selfish personal drama. Knowing that the selfishness has a cause doesn't change the fact that self-respect requires us to socialize with people who won't hurt us.
As such, this blog looks like another chain in the manipulations. The author wants his 'friends' to accept him for who he is, and for strangers to call him up and feel sorry for him. But he's a person who can never accept others for who they are: he'll be too busy worrying about how they'll affect him, how to maximize his own comfort, to ever change the way he acts. I feel sorry for him... but not so much that I'd like to be his friend. posted by anotherpanacea at 11:55 AM on August 6, 2007 [6 favorites]
anotherpanacea - i think you're half right. one trait that is a hallmark of BPD is that those afflicted with it oscillate wildly and for no discernible reason between that hypersensitivity and a state of nearly total emotional dissociation. kind of like an emotionally-oriented bipolarity, if you will. i've read accounts of BPD sufferers who describe their world in terms of living with a thick pane of glass between them and everyone else - they are incapable of being sensitive to others emotions and as during those times that emotional invulnerability (and numbness) allows them to feel like they can act with total impunity. which to someone on the other side of the glass manifests itself as highly manipulative behavior. cutting behavior, in particular, is described as an expression of their desire to break through that pane of glass and allow themselves to "feel" something. posted by the painkiller at 12:08 PM on August 6, 2007
My dad and I suspect my mother has BPD. Mom and I haven't talked for 6 years - for no reason whatsoever. She just up and decided I was evil one day, and barred me from contacting her. Discovering such a disorder existed and fit my mother to a T has helped me transition from extremely bitter to understanding (and realizing that, no, I really wasn't evil). Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about this as long as my dad still has to call his only kid on the sly. posted by katillathehun at 12:09 PM on August 6, 2007
jokeefe's description of what it's like to have a person with BPD in your life is painfully spot-on. Another portrait of the type, for any Sopranos fans in the audience, is Gloria Trillo (the crazy Mercedes salesperson), who appears to hit seven or eight of the nine criteria. That mix of charm and frantic neediness and rage and seductiveness and self-hatred is pretty pathognomic. posted by Kat Allison at 12:11 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
As such, this blog looks like another chain in the manipulations.
He's a talented writer - maybe a disorder of this type could be an asset in that field. posted by 2shay at 12:12 PM on August 6, 2007
And thanks for that vivid and harrowing description, jokeefe. (And I thought I had difficult friends...) posted by languagehat at 12:13 PM on August 6, 2007
Sorry no link, but I've heard tell that brain imaging has sharpened what the idea of BPD is. Specifically, there seems to be a kind of person who does not have the low-level circuits that permit the frontal cortex to tamp down the amygdala. These circuits provide a built-in limiting of emotions by logic, without these a person will over-react to emotions in a way that is clearly not in their own self-interest. This is the part that makes them crazy and not just jerks.
That kind of self-harming without more extreme psychosis was how the notion of "borderline" came into play, and some find it a regrettably irrelevant naming convention. There have been complaints that the term has sometimes become a catch-all. posted by StickyCarpet at 12:20 PM on August 6, 2007 [2 favorites]
Thanks for posting this, 2shay. posted by sidereal at 12:21 PM on August 6, 2007
So does BPD appear at a certain age? Is one born with it? Is the consensus that it's nature ....or nuture? posted by punkfloyd at 12:34 PM on August 6, 2007
Thanks for the post. That's very helpful--and thanks also for the great comment, anotherpanacea. My wife and I believe that her mother probably has BPD. Figuring out how to maintain some kind of relationship with her has been difficult, to say the least. Complicating the problem are well-intentioned siblings who are unwilling to consider that not everything they hear from their mother is actually true, although she herself might believe it is.
As of today it has been exactly 13 months since we last saw her in person. That's easy to remember because a conversation upset her when our daughter was three days old, and she hasn't been back since. I thought that missing out on the milestones of a granddaughter's first year would be enough to entice her to come back, but I was wrong.
A friend of ours--a mental health professional--recommended that we read Stop Walking on Eggshells. I'll pass that recommendation on to anyone else struggling with a relationship with a family member with BPD. posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:49 PM on August 6, 2007 [3 favorites]
I really appreciated this, 2shay. posted by turing_test at 12:49 PM on August 6, 2007
"I was talking to a friend — one of the two people — recently. She asked me, “If you realize this is going on, why can’t you just not do it?" I think I laughed, though I didn’t mean to be rude. It’s the most obvious question in the world. It’s just that the answer is also obvious, if difficult to understand. The part of my brain I would ordinarily use to make judgments and draw conclusions is the very part that’s affected by this problem. I can’t just don’t-be-like-that because my brain literally doesn’t work that way."
This notion always scares the hell out of me. What does this mean? That he feels emotions and can't prevent himself from acting upon them (even if perhaps he's controlled the physical)? That seems like wavering in and out of being a conscious human. And even scarier is that it seems that most of society is like this. Can't even begin to recall how many times I've heard "but that's how I feel" in defense of an otherwise abhorrent action or belief (or hell it doesn't even need to be abhorrent as some have pointed out that they're affected by positive rewards as well) and when attempting to criticize it, most people will readily defend this behavior. posted by kigpig at 1:05 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
You don't have to be crazy to think that Cory Doctorow is a jackass... but it helps. posted by interrobang at 1:12 PM on August 6, 2007 [2 favorites]
"What does this mean? That he feels emotions and can't prevent himself from acting upon them (even if perhaps he's controlled the physical)?"
My fiancee has a friend with BPD. In many respects she is a delightful and caring woman, but she is also irresistably drawn to men who abuse her, again and again and again. And it's become clear that she knows she does this. She knows when she's about to do it. She knows when she is doing it. She recognises what went wrong having done it. But she is completely unable to stop this behaviour. I seriously believe that she should be under permanent adult supervision because she has no faculty of judgement at all.
And while she hasn't yet exhausted my fiancee in the way outlined by jokeefe, boy, I can absolutely believe jokeefe's account. posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:16 PM on August 6, 2007
I very briefly dated someone with BPD that I met on an on-line dating service. We went from 0-60 basically overnight, spent all our time together, had a great time. And then like 3 weeks into it, she just lost her mind (she had been drinking). Accusations that I was looking at other girls, that I was going to dump her for my ex gf, crying, screaming, calling herself a piece of shit, saying that she's ugly, etc. I felt horrible for her, and I thought maybe that it was just the drinking so I didn't break up with her right away.. Next weekend, same story, i cut it off that Monday.
After that, I had a stream of hundreds IMs and text messages for about two weeks, saying that I was hurting her because I got off on hurting people, that i did the whole thing on purpose just to hurt her, etc... talking about getting a pregnancy test, getting checked for STDs, etc. After not even four weeks of dating!
It was the rapid alteration between being pleading and loving and mean and angry that really did my head in. She was so sweet and nice at times, like I really thought we could have had a great relationship, but it was like she had this evil, ugly person inside her that she couldn't keep under control. posted by empath at 1:19 PM on August 6, 2007
It's...really bizarre reading the comments on this thread. Mostly the 'people with BPD should be avoided at all costs' and 'there is no hope'.
My father and my older brother are both BPD. This is something neither of them will ever admit, though I have some hope for my brother as he's younger and maybe still has a chance to at least try and manage his rage and his unpredictable mood. My father I have entirely given up on, which is a difficult thing to do as the youngest, especially considering how much I used to idolize him. But there is only so much abuse one person can take, and I have at this point reached my threshold.
It was disheartening reading this post, but it all rings true. I can only hope that, when I finally have children of my own, I won't pass these genes on to them.
Family members with Borderline will break your heart. Then they will apologize profusely, you will begin to heal and they will break it again. It never stops. posted by nonmerci at 1:20 PM on August 6, 2007
Interesting post 2shay, thanks.
jokeefe, amazing comment.
does BPD appear at a certain age
Thought to be relatively fixed by age 6 and a lifelong disorder, all pervasive, by 21.
The DSM needs to come up with much better defined details regarding BPD. "Some mental health professionals use this diagnosis for their female patients who are a "pain in the ass." If you are female and are seen as a "difficult patient" you may be at risk for getting this diagnosis."
Seconding the Walking on Eggshells book. The author also runs the excellent adult children of BPDed parents online.
Glad to see a male BPD with a blog. I think it's just the kind of thing that can help survivors of relationships with BPDs, to hear about what it's like in the mind of the person with this disorder. BPD, like any of the clinical disorders is on a continuum and is almost always co-morbid with other issues, like addiction, ptsd, depression, mania etc.
"The DSM IV, was published in May 1994 by the American Psychiatric Association and referred to as the "bible" of psychiatric diagnosis because it provides definitions, symptoms and characteristics for mental disorders that are recognized by clinicians from around the world.
The DSM IV calls for clinicians to evaluate individuals on five levels or axes. Axis I identifies mental disorders; Axis II identifies personality disorders and mental retardation. Axis III identifies relevant physical diseases and conditions. Axis IV identifies the individuals psychosocial and environmental issues; and Axis V is used by the clinician to assess an individual's overall functioning based on the 100-point scale called the Global Assessment of Functioning (GAF)."
Sam Vaknin, who was diagnosed as NPD while he was in prison for fraud, wrote a book, Malignant Self Love, and collected a massive amount of material on the web about pathological narcissism as part of his awakening to his disorder. His writing has helped tens of thousands of survivors of relationships with narcissists understand the person they were enmeshed with and comprehend the crazy-making mayhem they survived.
However, the fact he has helped people does not mean he is less of a pathological narcissist. :)
Mentally, people with Axis 2 Cluster B personality disorders are often brighter, shrewder, talented, way more strategically astute survivors that the majority of human beings. So, with that in mind, I do not think of them having a mental illness but an emotional illness. It is in the emotions department that people with these four disorders are most dangerous to others and themselves.
People with BPD specialise in dramarama, addiction, suicidal ideation, self mutilation and promiscuity. One BPDed man I knew in a recovery group for survivors of relationships with pathological narcissists, regularly propane-torched his body. Self-cutting and self-burning with cigarettes is common.
People, who have survived a relationship with a person with an Axis 2 cluster B disorder, commonly use two expressions when talking about their experience, feeling emotionally vampired and in the case of narcissists and anti-social personality disorder in particular, evil. This is because the people with Axis 2 Cluster B disorders are attuned to the feelings of others but stomp on them anyway or require mothering to the point of the caretaker's total exhaustion.
The underlying condition, considered to be pathological narcissism, in all Axis 2 Cluster B personality disorders causes the person to be unable to connect to others with empathy, to have a sustained true self or good will. Their experiences are compartmentalised, so people with Axis 2 cluster B disorders can go into a rage and snap out of it incredibly fast, seeming to have no understanding of the impact their rage or malice had on others.
They may feel guilt or shame but are unable to respond to those feelings appropriately.
Diagnosed male BPDs are less common than female BPDs.
In the Sopranos (wall to wall Axis 2 Cluster Bs), Tony's mother was diagnosed with BPD but I think she was more classic NPD. His sister, Janice, was, imo, classic female BPD. BPD females commonly attach themselves to NPD or ASPD men.
Self link, for the last seven years I've written about and extensively researched surviving relationships with people with Axis II Cluster B disorders and run a number adult children of narcissists recovery groups (this is a page of links or things I found helpful, listed on another person's site). Quite often adult children of NPDs have one parent who is NPD and the other who is BPD or is an adult child of a narcissist.
That pair, female BPD and male NPD, is typical folie à deux material. A nightmare if you are a child of that kind of couple. posted by nickyskye at 1:21 PM on August 6, 2007 [19 favorites]
Wow. Reading that post is inevitable an emotional experience, regardless of how much I agree with/understand what he is (and commenters are) saying. Thanks for posting this. posted by ORthey at 1:27 PM on August 6, 2007
The person who wrote that post is unusually self-aware, and I admire his honesty and his struggle to understand his behavior. So, I don't mean to pick at his words, but this passage stood out for me.
I go through periods of uncontrollable rage. That is to say, the rage is uncontrollable. I get angry for no good reason, or at best for a very, very insignificant reason, and it doesn’t go away readily. I’m not dangerous in any meaningful sense, at least not to others. But I can be very difficult to be around.
I think that many BPD people (who are capable of understanding that they rage: many do not remember doing it) feel that their rages are not dangerous to others if they are not directly, physically violent. This is not true: having another person uncontrollably angry at you for no reason at unpredictable times is extremely damaging to non-BPD people.
Because BPD people tend to exist in such an intense, dramatic universe, I think that they have a difficult time understanding that for the rest of us, extreme rage is absolutely outside the realm of acceptable behavior. posted by lemuria at 1:43 PM on August 6, 2007 [7 favorites]
nickyskye in 4.. 3.. 2..
Bam, LOL, you nailed it dear StickyCarpet.
She just up and decided I was evil one day
Projective identification. Another of the main issues with BPDs is black and white thinking. All good or all bad.
If they are unable to contain their feelings of shame about themselves, that they are a flawed human being, they may project this out, onto another person, especially a person who is close to them, like their child. If she thinks you are evil, she may be having evil thoughts herself and it's a warning to you to protect yourself. Stalking is a huge BPD issue. It's no fun to be stalked.
BPDs also have approach-avoidance issues and if you attempt to get close to them, in order for them to disconnect from what may feel like overwhelming/engulfing closeness to them, they may pull a "devalue and discard". A d&d really hurts on the receving end but it is truly the best as it is not possible to be close, authentically - or safely- close, to a person with BPD. posted by nickyskye at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2007 [2 favorites]
BPD is fascinating, but he's right that most sane human beings should avoid such people at all costs
There was a time in my life where reading something like that would send me, suddenly and unavoidably, spiralling downward. I might get very angry or just very sad. If someone close to me said something like that, I might do something terribly self-destructive and make them feel like they drove me to it by their callousness. Or I might concoct an elaborate web of lies to try and make them feel sympathy for me. There was a time in my life where I easily met 8 out of the 9 DSM criteria for a borderline personality, and all the important things in my life were being consumed by it, and I just could not see a way out.
The worst times were pre-diagnosis, when I did not know what BPD was and did not understand what was wrong with me. As a teenager, I moved to a new city, had trouble fitting in, watched my mother descend into alcoholism, started getting involved in romantic relationships. What had been, up to that point, some occaisional behavioral problems and emotional quirks became more intense, started to solidify and gather speed. I was screwing everything up. I was dropping out of school, sabotaging my closest friendships, mutilating myself, desperately clinging to boyfriends, horrifying my family, lying so constantly and compulsively that I lost a grip on reality. I ended up in mental hospitals. I lost jobs. I lost people by hurting them terribly.
People would ask me why, and I wouldn't know how to answer them. I would try and come up with a believable lie, adding untruths to untruths, even when it became painfully obvious to everyone. People gave up on me. They gave up in disgust, or they gave up with great sadness. I didn't understand it any more than they did. The only explanation I could think of was, I'm a monster. I identified with child molesters; it seemed like they could understand what it's like to just be a bad person, to fight between what you want and what is right, and to lose.
Learning what was wrong with me was no magic bullet, but it was the beginning of a long and still ongoing process that has transformed me. I've read extensively on the disorder, and I've come to understand a lot about how my mind works. I've learned what I need to watch about myself and what needs and urges I need to keep in check. I've learned to reassure myself, and talk myself down from the extremes of my moods, instead of throwing myself on the mercy of others. I've forced myself to face situations I used to do anything to avoid, and I've found the deep relief that comes with their resolution. I've learned the hard way how quickly I lose the people I love when I fall into my borderline behaviors, and I've seen how much better things can be if I fight every damn day to be sane, sensible, kind.
I don't agree with those who say that BPD is uncurable, untreatable. I'm living proof that it isn't, and while I may not be the most severe of cases, I've come quite a long way. Today, I meet only 2-3 of the criteria, making me no longer a clinical case. I have been in a relationship for over four years, and while it has certainly had its ups and downs, it is stable and loving. My SO knows about BPD and he knows that I'm capable of doing very bad things, and he has stuck around, and learned to call me on my shit. Five years ago I couldn't have imagined letting someone get that close to me. The thought would have made me shake with terror. I have friends, I have a job, I am an honor student at a decent state university. I still have stuff to work on, and suspect I always will, but who doesn't?
This blogger seems very much in the thick of his illness; as some have pointed out, his entry itself is borderline, vacilating between a genuine effort to come clean and pleas for sympathy and fear of rejection. It makes me very sad to hear someone speaking from that place; it's truly terrible to be there. I wish I could tell him, and other sufferers, exactly how I got a grip on things, but it's not an easy thing to quantify or describe. Therapy helped, but I always quit before I was supposed to, prefering to take their tools and use them in my own way. Distancing myself from people who provoked problematic behavior was important, and so was an antidepressent I still take daily. Goals helped motivate me; work helped force me out of my own head. And of course, the realization that I was not a lost cause, that I was not irredeamably bad, just a person with a difficult, but certainly legitimate and well-documented, problem. There is another life possible. posted by bookish at 1:51 PM on August 6, 2007 [79 favorites]
I had a female room mate with a boyfriend eventually diagnosed with BPD. He was also a heavy coke user. A drunk. A thief. Abusive. Expertly and shamelessly manipulative.
Once he was diagnosed he would use the "but I have a mental disorder" thing to gain sympathy and fuck her over again and again. Till eventually he beat the shit out of her so bad he fled town.
I had another diagnosis. He's what we used to call "An Asshole." posted by tkchrist at 2:02 PM on August 6, 2007 [6 favorites]
I admire the courage of the fellow in the linked article, and of the other posters in this thread who've related their experiences. Whether suffering BPD from the inside or suffering from a loved one's BPD, it's no bed of roses.
I don't know if BPD is curable. But I firmly disbelieve that any living person is ever beyond help. Talking about it helps. Understanding and compassion help. posted by ikkyu2 at 2:05 PM on August 6, 2007 [3 favorites]
I don't agree with those who say that BPD is uncurable, untreatable. I'm living proof that it isn't, and while I may not be the most severe of cases, I've come quite a long way. Today, I meet only 2-3 of the criteria, making me no longer a clinical case.
Congratulations bookish. Brave and commendable of you to step forward and share. I sincerely wish you the best on your recovery journey.
I'd add that savvy about the disorder comes first in terms of self-protection and then, while being savvy, and possibly at a safe distance, to be compassionate and understanding. posted by nickyskye at 2:12 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
One out of every four people are crazy. Think of your three best friends, if it isn't them, it's you.
It is all just a tad relative. All I wanted was a Pepsi. posted by MapGuy at 2:14 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
Thank you for posting this.
My older sister had BPD and anorexia. She killed herself in 2002 after twenty years of trying to live with her illnesses. She could have written that blog entry.
swerve, that was..well, I can't think of a good adjective, really, but thank you for posting that. posted by agregoli at 2:22 PM on August 6, 2007
And thanks for that vivid and harrowing description, jokeefe. (And I thought I had difficult friends...)
Thanks, LH. And I'm sure you can imagine that I could post thousands of words about this woman without covering it all... I held on for a long time for the sake of the person she could be, and who she was, often. The indulgent mother, the wit, the woman with a fantastic gift for interior design, the writer.
But BPD, from my experience, is like this: imagine the worst things you know about being fourteen years old: the self-absorption, the resentment, the depressive rage, the bottomless feeling of victimization, the continual battle with forces that you feel control you without understanding you, the profound infatuations founded on nothing more than transient attractions, the inability to empathize or even see other people's feelings as real. That's BPD: being that fourteen year old even as you turn 18, as your friends grow older and get their lives together, as your friends hit their mid-twenties and begin to realize just how deeply your confusions and anxieties and anger go, as they move on into their thirties and want to have nothing to do with you any longer unless drawn by a sense of obligation to the past. A lot of my friend's behaviour was initially lost in the turmoil of being teenagers: we were all messed up over love and sex and figuring out who we were; but for her, it's never ended. And the scope of the damage you can do, as that fourteen year old in an adult body, gets larger and larger. You can have kids, you can get married, you can take on adult places in the world, but you're still that narcissistic child, convinced that nobody knows you, desperate for redemption granted from some power, looking for the person who you are convinced holds that power, and above all desperately grieving the love you feel you've never properly been given, because something has purposely withheld it.
bookish, thank you for your comment; it's a brave one. posted by jokeefe at 2:26 PM on August 6, 2007 [22 favorites]
Great post. Thank you.
And thank you jokeefe, and bookish, and swerve. posted by rtha at 2:36 PM on August 6, 2007
Thank you for this post. It's very timely for me.
I am in the process of getting rid of a person in my life who shows all the symptoms of BPD. I have changed my phone number, am moving, and have filed for a Protection Order. In fact this is a new ID for me, because they'd probably recognize the other one, and I am scared of what they'd do if they saw this.
When things were good, they were amazing. This person could be charming, funny, and adoring. But when things were bad, they were hell.
They have broken into my house, confronted my friends and family (often in the middle of the night), destroyed my property, stalked me, made various wild accusations about people they thought I was sleeping with. They tried to forbid me to talk to certain friends, wear attractive outfits, change my hair and clothing style, frequent certain places.
The BPD plays out in other aspects of their life - they cannot hold a job because they are so confrontational. Because of that they are often homeless or near-homeless. They have great ambition but no follow through. They are alcoholic, and often abuse drugs.
And I always took them back, because I thought I could fix them, if I was nice enough and took care of them. Plus this person was always able to make it seem as though the problem was entirely my fault. (And yes, I am in counseling, which has made a huge difference).
But each time I took them back, it would devolve, quickly. Every time the phone or doorbell rang, I jumped. I didn't know whether I was going to be a saint or a devil. It was completely random, or triggered by the most meaningless thing - my tone of voice was wrong, a member of the opposite sex left a meaningless comment on my myspace page, I didn't answer my phone, so I must be avoiding them.
Despite the Order, I am, like the title of the book, on eggshells. I jump at every email, I look around every time I leave the house, and constantly check the rear view mirror. I keep checking my car to make sure they haven't left me yet another note under the windshield wiper. I cannot walk around town for fear they'll drive by me and yell obscenities out their window (again). My friends say that this person is continues to confront them about me. My social life is my DVD player.
I wish I had known about this disorder a year ago. As soon as I realized that this person had a serious mental illness I was able to make a total break.
At least it will be a total break on my part - I don't think I'll ever be rid of them completely posted by uh126 at 2:55 PM on August 6, 2007 [2 favorites]
If she thinks you are evil, she may be having evil thoughts herself and it's a warning to you to protect yourself.
That is interesting, nickyskye, because she also used to accuse me of having "some kind of sick obsession" with her. I'm not sure where she got that apart from my desperately trying not to make my own mother angry, but that translated as stalker behavior to her... and SHE used to show up at my college dorm room and later my apartment... sometimes my friends' houses... unannounced. She'd rifle through my things looking for evidence of whatever she imagined I was doing. So, if anyone had stalker-like behavior, it was she. posted by katillathehun at 2:59 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
I posted the following on craigslist/m4w last Christmas after what was then a romantic dissapointment:
Hello ladies,
I am lonely, depressed and CUTE! Take me now!
My life is in a severe state of disrepair, I don't have a family nor good friends, and any time I see my roommates, I get freaked out by their normalcy.
Everything that is wrong in my life is very much in my face now, and this is probably an ill-chosen period for me to embark on a sincere quest for companionship.
In truth, this is more a rant than a request for you to email me a 250 words essay on why you're so fucking awesome along with a list of your favourite bands.
So I'm going to spend Christmas alone, so be it. I date a lot but despite all the small talk, there seems to be a chasm of genuine communication between me and the rest of the world I cannot cross.
I promise to go to a psychiatrist soon so I can spare the world of my half-assed attempt at lucidity and return to a productive life of rewarding coffee breaks and desperate frolicking, but for the time being, should you be a human being in the same predicament as I, or an animal, or a plant, or any fucking living organism with a fucked-up shitty life for that matter, know that you are not alone.
You are free to imagine the two of us wearing lush clothes, laughing away in a warm, comfortable house surrounded with beautiful, well-meaning intelligent spiritual people, enjoying this most magnificient of season together, living a meaningful rich life.
But don't email me. My curiosity about human suffering is limited.
I'm going to finish writing my Christmas "fuck you" letter to my dad now and shoot up after that. Bye bye.
Reading the linked post and noticing the wave of attention it got, part of me was wishing I could have the convenience of a BPD diagnosis, or at least the same attention.
But another part of me thought that the symptoms of BDP are pretty much describing the human condition, and that BDP itself, the word, the concept, the diagnosis, is a reinforced protective mental mechanism (also self-reinforcing because of it's feedback loop nature) against the pain of life rather than a disease. I can't really speak for anyone else, but if BDP is indeed a disease, I bet we all share it to a certain extent. posted by jchgf at 3:00 PM on August 6, 2007 [4 favorites]
"I think that many BPD people (who are capable of understanding that they rage: many do not remember doing it) feel that their rages are not dangerous to others if they are not directly, physically violent. This is not true: having another person uncontrollably angry at you for no reason at unpredictable times is extremely damaging to non-BPD people."
A good friend of mine was forced to accept that an ex-girlfriend was BPD when she hospitalized him using a frying pan after flying into an instant rage over whether to salt the food.
Believe me, a BPD person can be very, very dangerous. posted by zoogleplex at 3:07 PM on August 6, 2007
"At least it will be a total break on my part - I don't think I'll ever be rid of them completely"
Well, at least in my friend's case, the BPD person soon found new targets and has not come back. So don't lose hope. posted by zoogleplex at 3:16 PM on August 6, 2007
Haven't read the link or the comments yet, but wanted to throw in...
My partner and I lived with a girl who we believe had BPD, who unwittingly took advantage of us. We had to kick her out of our house, and it was hard. It wrecked my girlfriends friendship with this person.
My sister also has it. She's been through quite a bit, but it's terribly sad. My father doesn't believe anything she says. She definitely has anxiety issues along with fibromyalgia. But due to her issues, it makes it hard for him to trust her, which makes her try harder to be taken seriously.
The wild mood swings are also difficult to deal with. My mother who is, as "my crazy sister" (what I like to call her) says, a saint... She's busted her ass to help my sister get the help she needs, unfortunately the state has not been very forthcoming, and my mom is getting burnt out, both from the overall support she needs and the seeming games my sister plays.
It's terribly tragic. And it's hard, because you KNOW you want to help, but you have to set firm boundaries. And I think that until you actually live or deal with someone with it, it's hard to see it. You have to be close enough... Otherwise, they just seem kind of... Maybe "energy vampire" is a good word. posted by symbioid at 3:19 PM on August 6, 2007
Yeah I know... GYOFB. Suck it... posted by symbioid at 3:20 PM on August 6, 2007
Believe me, a BPD person can be very, very dangerous.
Absolutely. My mom? Once tried to strangle me after I left a cereal bowl sitting on her desk. No joke. She wasn't normally a physically abusive person, but she had been getting gradually worse with her freakouts. That one left bruises. She apologized sincerely and seemed thoroughly shocked that she had gone that far.
...and then told me that the physical pain I felt was the equivalent of how I made her feel (emotionally) on a regular basis.
I've read Stop Walking On Eggshells, too, by the way. Excellent book. I can't recommend it enthusiastically enough. posted by katillathehun at 3:28 PM on August 6, 2007
Also, the song "Just" by Radiohead really hits me when I think about this:
You do it to yourself, you do, and that's what really hurts. posted by symbioid at 3:33 PM on August 6, 2007
I have a question. Are there recognized gradations within the condition? I know of someone who fills all or most of the criteria, but each one to a lesser degree than some examples given.
Thank you for this information.
I don't suppose it would do any good to try to tell someone with this condition that perhaps they should look into the possibilty. I will be thinking this thru over the coming days..........
And looking for the "Walking on Eggshells" book. posted by readery at 3:37 PM on August 6, 2007
i haven't had the time to read the OP, but thought this may be interesting to add. Virtual Hallucinations is something to train people in understanding psychiatric disorders, by actually allowing you to witness first hand what people experience with schizophrenia and such. googling it came up with a few more examples then this one article. posted by andywolf at 3:48 PM on August 6, 2007
My ex-boyfriend was BPD. He would tell people in his most sincere, manipulative way that I was crazy and "don't tell her (any of the bad horrible disrespecting things I've done behind her back) anything because you don't know what she'll do." and they BELIEVED him. Friends of ours that I thought were friends...you not only have to put up with THEIR shit but you always go around trying to explain YOURSELF... Walking on Eggshells was my bible. posted by wafaa at 3:51 PM on August 6, 2007
Oh, they can definitely be physically violent. Mine was. But it seems to me that many are capable of understanding that physical violence is wrong (at least in the abstract), while at the same time not comprehending that screaming, slamming doors, breaking things, etc. can hurt someone. posted by lemuria at 3:52 PM on August 6, 2007
I find it disappointing that someone accused the author's blog of being "another chain in the manipulations." Having followed his blog for, I believe, four years now, I hardly think it's anything of the sort. At times, it's been sad to read someone talking about themselves with self-deprecation, but his writing has been sharp as a tack, all at once entertaining, sad, uplifting, and enlightening.
It came as only half a surprise to me when he posted this: I figured there was something, but I was unsure what precisely. I certainly never knew much about BPD until now, but any gain in understanding that lets you comprehend how someone else's life happens day to day is something I consider valuable. posted by CipherSwarm at 4:05 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
Everyone believed my ex because, after all, he was a mental-health therapist--couples, chemical dependency, group therapy, etc.--and he CERTAINLY couldn't be messed up. Oh, yeah, he knew certain things were wrong. posted by wafaa at 4:05 PM on August 6, 2007
Some of these people actually have bipolar disorder, or they have the borderline along WITH it.
It's really sad. My sister in law has this along with a couple of friends of mine (One I have lost touch with when she moved; the other one is actually really a good friend, with issues. Not all borderlines make their friends' lives hell. But some do. The first one left total chaos in her wake. ) posted by konolia at 4:14 PM on August 6, 2007
I know there was some reason I didn't want to visit MeFi earlier today and this is it. Ouch. This hurts but I so very much need to see it. Three months after cutting off my ex-wife for the third time, she comes back to me in this post. She was diagnosed with this before I met her over 20 years ago. Something about the damn name of the diagnosis made me think it was something I could help her back away from, bringing out my own worst codependent tendencies (it reinforced my ego to be, in my own words, her 'knight in shining burlap'). And I thought that her keeping up with therapists (most of whom were also her codependents) would keep things from getting worse. It took 17 years and two health crises of my own before I really realized just how toxic she was to me, and then it took another several months in deep depression before I could do anything. At least this last time, the attempt to re-connect never got beyond telephone conversations. But I keep discovering more details about the disorder and her affliction with it, signs I should have recognized years ago, a series of Homer "D'oh!" moments about how I had surrendered my own life to the irrational. Now, she is institutionalized and Officially declared psychotic, and I am Officially declared disabled (a combined diagnosis of heart disease and depression) and living a safe 220 miles away. A tangled web of financial problems built up over all those years and lingering fears at making her angry keep me from a final divorce, but I am finally working on a fresh start with myself and by myself.
So sorry for the self-indulgent rambling; I had hoped to have more to contribute to this enlightening discussion, but I am still learning things about the condition I should have known 20 years ago and all these other MeFites being so upfront and open about their relatives, friends and even selves with this disorder are so helpful - and painful. Thank you all. posted by wendell at 4:48 PM on August 6, 2007 [13 favorites]
Wafaa - my mother did the same thing to me as your boyfriend did to you. She was so great to my friends that they believed her when she told them I had drug problems, was a thief, a pathological liar, and had dabbled in prostitution on the side (none of which are even remotely true). Talk about betrayal. Only one of my friends came back and said, "I know you better than I know your mom, so I'm going to believe you."
wendell - you remind me of my dad. My dad's still with my mother, but she's really ground my father down. I think he's also codependent, but he has Tourette's Syndrome, and she uses that to her advantage. I hate to say it, but I wish he'd leave my mom for his own health. He once found the courage to tell her he'd leave her if she didn't show him some respect, but her reaction was to insist he stop taking his anti-depressants. Which he did.
Bah. I keep showing up in this thread. I just keep reading other comments and having, "YES! Somebody understands!!" moments. posted by katillathehun at 4:58 PM on August 6, 2007
I find it disappointing that someone accused the author's blog of being "another chain in the manipulations."
I'm disappointed to be the author of that comment, but only because it should have read: "another link in the chain of manipulations." I was referring, however, only to the post linked, not to the entire site (a part/whole problem common to that word 'blog.')
Perhaps I should have been more careful, like jokeefe, to make it clear that my analysis is really a generalization based on particular encounters. It's probably not fair for me to warn the entire Metafilter population against all potential BPDs when I was only attempting to share the self-protective rationalizations that I myself have had to use in my relations with some family members and some lovers who fit the diagnosis. There may be many more people like bookish who have managed to overcome their defects of character.
But the problem with this line of reasoning is that, "I've changed! I'm fixed now!" is the BPD's constant refrain. When they have power in your life, emotional or legal authority, it's too tempting to believe these lines, and acting under this deception, to offer unearned compassion and understanding. I feel confident in saying that anyone who recognizes these symptoms in their family members could probably do themselves a world of good by simply cutting them out of their life, without measurably affecting the unhappy state of the BPD. It may be true that my BPD ex-lover 'needs' me, but when my presence doesn't seem to actually help, but simply exposes me to her cruelty and caprice, I'm not sure what 'necessary' means for her.
they are incapable of being sensitive to others emotions and as during those times that emotional invulnerability (and numbness) allows them to feel like they can act with total impunity.
It's said that BPD has become a catch-all diagnosis, and I sometimes suspect that the 'numb' types have only a superficial relationship to the hypersensitive people with whom I'm familiar. Certainly the role of the amygdala in the disorder doesn't seem to jive with numbness, except perhaps through overstimulation and exhaustion. I'd be interested to hear more about this if anyone can help make sense of the apparent paradox. posted by anotherpanacea at 5:16 PM on August 6, 2007 [3 favorites]
Reading the linked post and noticing the wave of attention it got, part of me was wishing I could have the convenience of a BPD diagnosis, or at least the same attention.
But another part of me thought that the symptoms of BDP are pretty much describing the human condition, and that BDP itself, the word, the concept, the diagnosis, is a reinforced protective mental mechanism (also self-reinforcing because of it's feedback loop nature) against the pain of life rather than a disease. I can't really speak for anyone else, but if BDP is indeed a disease, I bet we all share it to a certain extent.
posted by jchgf at 3:00 PM on August 6 [+] [!]
I think this is insulting to anyone who has lived with or really experienced the receiving end of someone raging that is most assuredly BPD.
Yes, we are all capable of hurting other people. Yes, everyone gets angry. But there is a broad difference between feeling angry from time to time based on specific situations and flying into a rage because someone has said a trigger word or phrase or back-talked (as is usually the case for me) one too many times. This is an insane person threatening you and your safety.
Without getting too personal, all I can say is that I have seen my father look at me like he wants to kill me, or like he could, and I have been on the receiving end of physical abuse. Fortunately it generally stops at idle threats, but I assure you that it is DAMAGING to watch a parent destroy property, talk about how much they'd like to kill themself and threaten you and the rest of your family.
This is not "the human condition". Sure, maybe some people are misdiagnosed, but consider that many people aren't even diagnosed at all and don't seek treatment. What kind of protection is the term really offering, then?
**please, no one get all social services on me, I'm an adult who normally now does not live at home and will be leaving the country in two weeks anyway. posted by nonmerci at 5:20 PM on August 6, 2007 [2 favorites]
Well, that's enough vivid accounts of what it's like to be involved/related to someone with BPD that I really needn't add 500 words of mine. What's been written above strikes me as incredibly accurate and believable in terms of how a person with BPD thinks, feels and behaves as well as what it can do to a person who's close to them. It's not all hopeless for the person with BPD (as bookish points out): the person I know has not been able to get the therapy they need, but with a high dose of venlafaxine and another antipsychotic (forgot the name) stopped dramatically destroying their life and driving people away, though they're still jobless, often glum, often generally numb but are an active, welcome, contributing member of their family again.
Nthing the recommendations for Stop Walking on Eggshells and BPDCentral--the latter being set up and maintained by one of the authors of the former. There's a fair overlap in the material but it's still worth the price to have it a second time in hard-copy. I bought the person in question a copy of Lost in the Mirror right after they were diagnosed (after decades of different diagnoses, shrinks and pills) and they said it was the first time they felt anyone had ever understood what it was like to be them and it was profoundly life-changing in terms of giving them hope that life could be something other than the emotional-rollercoaster-nightmare they'd been living until that point. They didn't have the attention-span for Get Me Out of Here (well, they found the beginning to depressing and the book to long to get to the hopeful part). I read it and I thought I knew a thing or two after reading "Eggshells" but it was a further eye-opener.
On preview: Yes, if you read a description of BPD it sounds like the human condition. "Normal" people question their own worth, and worry about being abandoned or betrayed by those close to them, and sometimes respond irrationally and hurt people in the process. But they get over it, apologise (or don't) and move on. If you have BPD then your personality and life are dominated by a mortal fear of being abandoned and betrayed (something you feel as intensely as a child might the first time they are left with a new babysitter), and your behavior is dominated by extreme and irrational action to cope with this mortal fear. It's not what they worry about and the fact that they don't deal with it well--it's the intensity of the fear (such that everything else is a distant secondary concern) and that their coping mechanisms are so irrational and extreme that they destroy their own lives and the lives of those near them. posted by Martin E. at 5:47 PM on August 6, 2007 [3 favorites]
Are there recognized gradations within the condition?
Yes. First, imo, most teenage girls go through a BPD traited time, with dramaramas, hormonal infatuations, impulsivity. Cutting among teen girls has been quite a goth fashion for about a decade.
PTSD arising out of having been a childhood sexual abuse survivor often causes many BPD traits, which may include self-mutilation, addiction, suicidal ideation, mood swings, dissociation.
PTSD arising out of trauma may manifest in BPD traits, mood swings, addiction, rages, severe fear of intimacy, black and white thinking, abandonment issues.
Also BPD is usually co-morbid with other issues, like OCD, bi-polar, paranoia, social phobia, generalised anxiety, eating disorders, body dysmorphia etc.
Depending on the substance that the BPDed person is addicted to, the severity of their disorder may be exaggerated. If the addiction is to pot, it may be a self-medicating for depression but if the addiction is crystal meth, the BPD traited person may be murderously enraged or really acting out sexually.
BPD traits is not the full disorder. But the full disorder also has a continuum, from Girl Interrupted to Fatal Attraction. posted by nickyskye at 5:57 PM on August 6, 2007 [5 favorites]
Nonmerci, I can understand you'd consider my comment as insulting. I do not wish to defend myself, but I would just like to note it was a reaction the the original link posted by 2shay, which I perhaps misread or misinterpreted. Anyone who has lived through such ordeals as you have has my sympathy. posted by jchgf at 5:58 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
The 12 steps really help with the emotions that the BPD definition covers.
Pick any 12-step meeting, go there for a while until you see someone improve as a result of working the steps.
It's not 100% about God - the whole mechanism of having a sponsor as a neutral party is integral.
You also get to define God, or dismantle God. Works either way. posted by krilli at 6:11 PM on August 6, 2007
It took me a long time to come to terms with the realization that my mother was not well. The constantly seeing everyone as either friend or foe, accusing me of siding with her enemies against her, accusing me (starting at 5 years old) of deliberately trying to ruin her life, writing suicide note upon note, yelling, screaming, throwing things, calling me the vilest names. Once, I purchased a book from the school book fair and she spent the entire afternoon until my father came home yelling at me for wasting money on a book when I could buy it from the library. She hit me with the book, bashed her own head into the refrigerator door, and cried and screamed her eyes out. It did not even occur to me that this was not normal. I was terrified and miserable, but I believed that she was right to be angry. It was only a few years ago that I realized how abnormal her behavior was and cut my family out of my life. She confided in me as well, all of her intense feelings and the great wrongs that were done to her and I am to this day unsure of many of the things she told me especially as some of the worst things have turned out to be true. Reading this thread, I see so much of her that it scares me. posted by deadlypenguin at 6:32 PM on August 6, 2007 [2 favorites]
Great comments, and it feels good to know I'm not alone. I just looked at the link that IIRC nickyskye posted (the DSM IV - Axis II) And it struck me that mental retardation and Personality Disorders are on the same axis. Because, a few years ago, when it really was hitting me just how much my sister is affected, I was talking to my SO on the phone and said "I think my sister is mentally retarded!" I totally felt as if she had somehow been developmentally stopped at the age of 16.
Initially I was wondering if it may have been a trauma at that age that she has blocked, but now, knowing more about BPD and this thread has helped, I see that this is sort of common. An inability to "grow up" or "move on".
Thanks again for all the great links and comments people. And my heart goes out to all of you who've had to deal with much worse than I have. posted by symbioid at 6:37 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
But another part of me thought that the symptoms of BDP are pretty much describing the human condition, and that BDP itself, the word, the concept, the diagnosis, is a reinforced protective mental mechanism (also self-reinforcing because of it's feedback loop nature) against the pain of life rather than a disease. I can't really speak for anyone else, but if BDP is indeed a disease, I bet we all share it to a certain extent.
Yes and no. Personality disorders are tricky because we all have moments (or weeks) when we are borderline, narcissistic, avoidant, OCPD, etc. Certainly everyone who has ever been a teenager has been borderline for a while. The difference, though, is that true BPDs have NO other coping mechanism. They are the proverbial one-trick pony; while "healthy" people will toss borderline strategies into the mix on occasion, BPDs simply cannot transition out of them. If the healthy person has a symphony of coping mechanisms, BPDs just have their one tiny little recorder that they frantically wheeze into in response to every threat to their ego.
I think that one reason that psychiatric diagnoses are so poorly understood is that they are so often differences of degree rather than kind; it's also why every medical school has a rash of bipolar self-diagnosis every time psych comes up. Leaving aside frank psychosis, most psychiatric illness is "normal" (if not necessarily ideal) thought and behavior cranked to the extent that it causes serious disability.
BPD is one of the absolute hardest things to deal with as an outside observer. A psychiatrist friend of mine jokes that if he comes out of a patients room and he either wants to punch the person in the mouth or give them the keys to his car, the patient is probably borderline (sort of a joke, but countertransference can be a useful thing). People in the BPD's life often describe the same feelings -- when they're on the good side of the split, nothing is better. But when you cross over...it's beyond miserable. posted by LittleMissCranky at 6:40 PM on August 6, 2007 [5 favorites]
anti-social personality disorder
oops, meant to write antisocial.
Seconding some of the 12-step meetings for survivors of long-term or repeated relationships with the BPDed, like Codependency Anonymous.
but if BDP is indeed a disease, I bet we all share it to a certain extent.
jchgf, In a post of mine from a couple of years ago about narcissists I said that recognizing the difference between normal difficulties and personality disorders can be crucial to decisions about entering new relationships and continuing existing relationships.
All mammals need attention. Human babies die, even if well fed and basic needs taken care of, if they do not receive loving strokes and attention:The Neuroarcheology of Childhood Maltreatment.
However, there is a big difference between a healthy need for attention, love, caring and pathological dependency on others for attention.
Healthy need for attention can be part of a balanced relationship in which both people are mutual in their feelings and attention-giving capacity. When one adult is a vortex of childlike need, wanting all the attention, all the time, while seething with unexpressed or explosive rage, unable to reciprocate appropriately, there is a serious illness there and it's seriously damaging to be around a person like that.
Reading this thread I've been surprised how many MeFites have spoken up about having BPDed relatives or experiences with people with BPD. I think this may be because MetaFilter has become more personally honest and less of a wall of snark, as I've sometimes experienced it in the past. And I like the change. It seems healthier. posted by nickyskye at 6:55 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
Although the film was ostensibly about his substance misuse problems, it seemed to me that substance misuse was simply a manifestation of his Borderline Personality Disorder.
This sounds a lot like the situation I am dealing with with my wife. I've pretty much lost most of my family (father/mother/sister) because of it. And I worry about my boy, who's six. I have no doubt that winning a custody battle would not be easy for me, and I can't bear to think of him growing up with her on his own, without me being able to at least absorb/deflect some of her anger. The situation's not great for him now, I know, but I have no idea how to improve it. She seems to be missing that idea of a line which isn't crossed by normal people, so I have to factor her reaction into anything I might consider.
I know the internet is not necessarily the best place to get advice, but I feel like I know this community somewhat, and after 8 years, I'm rapidly approaching the end of my rope. posted by bashos_frog at 7:40 PM on August 6, 2007
bashos_frog, You are right to worry about your boy.
What a terrible situation you are in. Please stay long enough to protect your son and work on getting custody of your son.
It will likely take a couple of years but if you share a son together and plan on seeing your son after you detach from your soon-to-be ex, it will take that long to get through the beginning of your healing-from-the-damage process in any case. posted by nickyskye at 7:54 PM on August 6, 2007
If anyone looks in this thread in the future, or if anyone can use this information now, I just wanted to bring up Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT). It's designed for people with BPD, but has recently begun to be used with other diagnoses, like my own depression. It was the breakthrough for me that I'd been looking for. It's taught in groups, in tandem with individual therapy It's skills-based--a class. With homework and everything!
I really applaud this guy because he knows he has a problem. That means he actually has a ghost's chance of getting better. So many BPs don't. You want to know the real nightmare? Being involved with a really high-functioning BP -- especially one in a position of power -- who refuses to admit they have a problem.
I was married to a raging BP with a Harvard Degree and an Ivy League professorship. The way she decided to preemptively reject me was to fabricate an account of domestic violence and broadcast it to the entire community. No matter there were never any injuries, police reports, restraining orders, missed work days, etc. etc. People believed her -- at first. But it took years for all her PhD'ed colleagues to figure it out.
That's the real nightmare. Being the codependent fixer/pleaser stupid enough to be taken in by a high-functioning BP. That was my problem. I had to fix it. I did, and went on with my life. But it left some serious scars.
I originally published a 25K word account under my own name because I felt I needed to clear my reputation. Mission accomplished. Plus, it became very popular reading in the BPD community. I went on to have a very happy life with a sane partner.
Now I want to distance myself as much as possible from the whole BPD scene and attending darkness. But if you're really in the dark about being in a relationship with a BP, you're patient enough to wait the 30 seconds to pull the PDF off this anonymous file sharing site, I might be able to help you. I hate the thought of somebody else suffering the way I did.
"She who conceals her illness cannot hope for a cure." posted by betteryeti at 8:16 PM on August 6, 2007 [5 favorites]
Pardon my criticism of this, but BPD seems like a textbook definition of the term "shotgun diagnosis". How can doctors make generalizations about people who supposedly have BPD without delving into the minutiae of the afflicted's life? posted by Burhanistan at 8:28 PM on August 6, 2007
i'd also like to thank those of you who shared your stories. it really is incredible how shared these experiences are. in that spirit, here's a bit of my story - hopefully it will be of use to someone.
i won't go into the unpleasant details - alot of them are similar to those scenarios and tales that others have recounted in this thread. suffice it to say that she was relatively 'high-functioning' enough to manage to get along without serious alarm bells going off among her peers and her friends. but eventually, the carefully constructed armature of her life collapsed astonishingly quickly.
ultimately, the diagnosis was a bit of a relief to me, as it catalyzed an number of jumbled theories in my head as to what was wrong with our relationship into something that was rather objective and coherent. i could put a name to the problem and being able to do that allowed me to gain a toehold of sanity in the whirlwind of mood swings, manipulation, and emotional disorientation. i'm no saint and i certainly couldn't pin all the trials of our relationship on her, but hearing that diagnosis for the first time was a real 'eureka!' moment. it was enlightening, to say the least - turns out her merry-go-round really had nothing to do with me after all.
otoh, it also completely sucked because i had come to care very deeply for this person. since her state had nothing to do with me, i had to confront the reality that i was powerless to do anything to try to help anymore. in fact there was little (if any) hope for anything but more destruction, anguish, and calamity. unable to rebuild a foundation of trust, i felt i had no choice but to abandon the relationship. it's been very difficult living with that choice, as it always is when logic and emotion are at cross purposes. but when things ended between us, she was profoundly unwell, and disentangling the manipulativeness from lucidity had become impossible.
she actually ended up getting married to the guy she was with before she met me. she has two beautiful children now. if i were a praying man, i'd be praying for those kids every night - as it is, i can only hope that either she has found a way to manage to keep the lid on, or that her children get enough coping skills to find their center before she unloads on them. but she's aware, and she's smart, and on her behalf i have hope - but she's not my problem anymore. posted by the painkiller at 8:31 PM on August 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
Great thread...moving and eye-opening. A question for NickySkye and others: do you have any recommendations for dealing with BPD in the workplace? Or does Walking on Eggshells cover that ground?
Reading all this, I am now virtually positive that at least one and possibly two coworkers of mine have BPD. It explains virutally everything -- every tantrum, every wildly inappropriate reaction, every major battle fought over the most minor of procedures or requirements. I and my other coworkers (and supervisors) are all at our collective wit's end trying to manage working with them on a day-to-day basis -- it's the most exhausting, upsetting trial I've ever been through in a professional setting in my entire life. I have always taken pride in being able to work with many different personalities (I'm known in my dept. as being the go-to person for working well with the most prickly of people!), but I am at a complete and utter loss as to how to proceed any longer. I feel like I am failing in a key way in the profession I love so much, and I know that my own supervisors feel utterly defeated by the situation.
Not working with these people is not an option -- I do project work, and they are both the central participants for each project. Upper management is both totally aware and evidently unwilling or incapable of addressing the situation. And quitting my job to get away from them is not an option either -- when not working with these two people, I love my job and the satisfaction and security it brings, and I will not sacrifice either of those because of these two people. (My fear of their instability is so great that I'm posting via sock puppet on the one-in-a-million chance that they might see this comment under my real username and connect the dots.) So any suggestions for books will be most welcome -- I'll get a couple of copies to pass around the office! posted by fizzyliftingdrink at 10:47 PM on August 6, 2007
An interesting feature of borderline personality is that it's probably the disorder people are most likely to suspect themselves of having. I've been wondering about it recently, except I'm neither charismatic nor manipulative, although charismatic, manipulative people have told me I am. But it seems I have a lot of chaotic living and damaging people (and ultimately seeking help) to do before I can know for sure. So it's a bit like criminality, too - linked to it, from what I've read. posted by limnrix at 11:02 PM on August 6, 2007
Reading this thread I'm wondering if BPD is a learned behavior for some people. If you're raised by some one who suffers from it, you learn how to react to other people by watching mom and dad. Genetics combined with learned behavior = Hellcat
(no, I'm not going to mention her name but man oh man was that a hellride) posted by Bighappyfunhouse at 11:07 PM on August 6, 2007
No.
Disclaimer: I'm doing all this based solely on his website, I am not his doctor, etc, etc-- but this guy isn't borderline.
I' think what he "has" is narcissism, not borderline. I don't mean this as a criticism, but as a technical distinction of personality. I'd suggest that's also why he hasn't "gotten better." The treatment of borderline is very different from narcissism. It's like having a pilot teach you how to ski. That's the problem with using the "bible of psychiatry" (those words alone are a red flag)-- it's lead him to the wrong "diagnosis" and thus entirely wrong treatment maneuvers.
As a simple distinction, a borderline is one who has no identity, so absorbs one based on the strongest one available (e.g. a boyfriend.) When the boyfriend changes, so, too, does the identity. A narcissist, by contrast, has a fairly strong invented identity-- that doesn't jive with reality, that no one else wants to accept. "I'm really an undiscovered talent." They lie, manipulate, and coerce to get you to accept this identity.
A narcissist is a 17 yo boy; a borderline is a 15 yo girl.
The move of the narcissist is to find people to force to accept his identity. And if they don't, the result is uncontrollable rage.
Bad news: borderlines are completely "curable." Narcissists are not. But where there's will there's hope. posted by TheLastPsychiatrist at 11:14 PM on August 6, 2007 [7 favorites]
This thread has been pretty great -- best of the Metafilter indeed.
I'm always sceptical about psychological diagnoses and labels and all of that, more than I should be perhaps. But I've found it really interesting that every time I was forming a 'Yeah, but....' comment in mind to post after reading to the end, someone said something that addressed my concern before I got to posting it. Like half a dozen times.
Not to trivialize, but sometimes, reading history, I wonder if everyone, mostly, was what we now call a borderline personality in centuries past, and if civilization and evolution have made most of us less.... extreme these days. posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:42 PM on August 6, 2007
This is all so emotionally intense!
Like nickyskye I had read Sam Vaknin's book and website about the similar Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). I think it is great that these people can become self-aware enough of their problem to be able to explain what they are experiencing. (Sam freely admits that his writing of the book and his website are all part of the enormous ego-gratification he constantly needs--hey, as long as it is all in a good cause).
I hadn't heard of BPD or its symptoms--maybe I've just instinctively avoided these people out of self-preservation. Unfortunately, I used to be drawn toward NPDs, because of some issues of my own.
Reading about these disorders from the perspective of the afflicted person gives much more insight, understanding, and recognition than just reading some academic paper.
It certainly will be helpful to other sufferers and their friends. posted by eye of newt at 11:49 PM on August 6, 2007
swerve, Just finished reading your deeply moving and beautifully written account of losing your BPDed older sister. I'm truly sorry for your loss. That had to have been and still be so utterly devastating.
symbioid, it struck me that mental retardation and Personality Disorders are on the same axis
Never thought about it until your comment. I think you're spot on. I know that pathological narcissism has some of the inability to connect with others that autism has and saw that as the brain of people with Axis II Cluster Bs being partially developed neurologically. Rather than mental retardation, because the Axis II Cluster Bs are often exceptionally intelligent, I think they are emotionally retarded. Maybe this is literal retardation in the limbic part of the brain, connected with emotions? Limbically challenged?
Burhanistan, How can doctors make generalizations about people who supposedly have BPD without delving into the minutiae of the afflicted's life?
People with BPD (along the continuum) often have traits of their disorder writ large, in neon. When they have emotional volatility, their rages blast people like verbal flamethrowers. When they have suicidal ideation, it's time for the stomach pump, the family coaxing them back from the window sill or trips into the emergency ward. Their self mutilation issues leave their body cross hatched with scars. There's usually a wake of people's lives in tatters behind them, exhausted caretakers. Minutiae might be useful to comprehend what caused the BPD but seeing the BPD traits doesn't take a magnifying glass, it's right there.
Once you know the traits and have some familiarity with people who have these personality disorders, it's glaringly plain to see. And then, knowing the traits of the Cluster Bs, it's like "I see dead people", the world -and history- looks starkly different.
A psychiatrist who ran a hospital in Canada told me that one way to tell a patient with a PD is how very uncomfortable it feels to be around them.
fizzyliftingdrink, do you have any recommendations for dealing with BPD in the workplace?
Wise to use a sockpuppet. Seeing the situation and the disorder clearly is a good portion of managing some of the impact.
Having put together an information package for a company owner with an NPDed employee they were afraid to fire (who has now found a way to constructively deal with 'the problem' without firing the employee) I'd like to suggest a small handful of things for you here in relation to your situation. Some of the issues cross over to people with BPD, as they can be very narcissistic.
It helps to keep a log of the crazy-making behavior. This takes it out of the vague and unreal into the real. This can be used in court, if necessary. And it may be necessary.
The recently deceased Tim Field's excellent Bully Online, bullies in the workplace.
There's tons more, links to sites, online support groups, books and articles to read, reading matter on specific issues, certain lawyers or therapists familiar in dealing with survivors of relationships with PDed people. Self link and disclaimer, I charge $50 an hour and since I'm not qualified with any degree in psychology, I can only offer practical information not therapy. posted by nickyskye at 12:12 AM on August 7, 2007 [6 favorites]
I've read, lately, that BPD is much more treatable by something called "dialectical behavior therapy" than standard therapy. It involves very in-depth work by one's therapist and working through situations in order to see the shades of grey that truth is, rather than the extreme love/hate that borderline people tend to perceive things as. posted by blacklite at 12:12 AM on August 7, 2007
Painkiller,
That's the tragedy of loving a borderline: loving them doesn't make them better, it makes them *worse*. It's a total emotional mind-f**k, an Alice-in-Wonderland world of emotions. You think you can love someone back to health, to sanity? You think that you can nurture and encourage and validate this person, and it'll make it all better? Just try and try and keep trying and it'll all turn out okay, because love conquers all? Think again. You're just pouring gasoline on a very, very dark and destructive fire. All the things you think you know about relationships, emotional connection, love and caring -- they're all wrong in the Borderlands. There's only one right thing you can do when you're in a relationship with a borderline: run. Just turn 180 degrees, get those feet moving, and don't stop until you're sure they can't follow you. Then keep running some more.
Sorry to be so dire, but I've spent way too much time of my life dealing with a seriously destructive, high-functioning borderline -- and then processing what happened to me to the point the world made sense again. It sounds really harsh, but really I'm just trying to advocate for the healthy people who are being pulled down into insanity and darkness by BPs. They need to know: there's nothing you can do; these people are broken, and they'll usually try to break you if you give them the chance; just get out of there; figure out why you were attracted to such an unhealthy person in the first place, heal that part of yourself, and start again: try to find somebody healthy, and go on with life. posted by betteryeti at 12:35 AM on August 7, 2007 [10 favorites]
Brilliantly said betteryeti. posted by nickyskye at 12:42 AM on August 7, 2007
I do not agree with most of the sentiments in this thread at all. The descriptions of borderline as an untreatable illness seem like how people looked at borderline more than a decade ago. These days borderline is not by definition untreatable. It does require a therapist with experience and special training and of course the person will have to want to change.
Furthermore: people can actually grow over it (actually, in a Dutch study, 40% of all people who were at one point diagnosed with BPD in a psychiatric hospital were borderline free after three years). Treating borderline as a condition that is set in stone and people with BPD as persons you should run away from as far as possible are probably self fulfilling prophecies. posted by davar at 3:37 AM on August 7, 2007
Not to trivialize, but sometimes, reading history, I wonder if everyone, mostly, was what we now call a borderline personality in centuries past, and if civilization and evolution have made most of us less.... extreme these days.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken
I don't think that's a trivial point at all.
Frankly, it IS hard to read history without wondering, just as you say, what the hell the diagnosis would be on many occasions.
But (for me) an obvious problem is accuracy. From the candid accounts here, it takes a long, hard, informed, wrenching look at multiple behavioral symptoms to get a handle on the nature of the disorder.
History is, of course, selective.
(Which is why many physical disorders of prominent individuals throughout history have also been misunderstood, such as epilepsy. Information about the symptoms was scattered). posted by Jody Tresidder at 5:14 AM on August 7, 2007
PTSD arising out of having been a childhood sexual abuse survivor often causes many BPD traits, which may include self-mutilation, addiction, suicidal ideation, mood swings, dissociation.
PTSD arising out of trauma may manifest in BPD traits, mood swings, addiction, rages, severe fear of intimacy, black and white thinking, abandonment issues.
Also BPD is usually co-morbid with other issues, like OCD, bi-polar, paranoia, social phobia, generalised anxiety, eating disorders, body dysmorphia etc.
This totally nails it on the head. I interned at a halfway house for mentally ill women on the north side of Chicago a little more than ten years ago and while BPD was the one thread that unified all the women there the co-morbidities were wildly varied but you hit pretty much all of them. The BPD anorexics were considered lost causes, the team working with them had cycled through so many treatments with no sucess that they more or less threw their hands up. I remember one social worker telling me not to concentrate on them since I was only going to be for a couple months and by the time I left they would probably be dead anyway. I'm talking about women who weighed 65 lbs and couldn't eat more than a lettuce leaf and a dollop of catsup per day.
Everybody in the halfway house was a cutter. Forearms, upper arms, thighs, all over the place. This was not attention seeking cutting, it was serious self-mutilation.
The one woman I did bond with was this enormous, butch lesbian who told me these wild stories about being raised in a Satanic cult in the desert outside Phoenix. She talked about having animals slaughtered on her while she lay naked on an altar and all the men in the cult having sex with her. The house staff told me to humor her but not put too much stock in the story; she was a compulsive liar. She did suffer sexual abuse as a child, addiction issues over the course of her life, etc.
Some days she loved me and would follow me around while I worked and we would laugh and make jokes. Other days she hated me and would threaten to kill me and be all up in my face ready to swing on me. There wasn't any discernable pattern to it. The only thing that became a real issue is that when I was getting ready to leave she couldn't handle the disconnecting part and made repeated attempts to find out my address and phone number. She would be clever, like ask me to show her my drivers license because she just wants to see the picture. I was a little concerned this woman was going to show up on my doorstep one night but she never did. The last night I was there she wouldn't even come out of her room to say goodbye. I sometimes wonder what happened to her. posted by The Straightener at 5:55 AM on August 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
nickyskye: thank you. Just to clarify, the AJP article was written by my mother. I'm the sister mentioned in the third paragraph. I didn't mean to imply authorship.
I often don't know how to explain that Elizabeth's suicide was just the final shock in the larger tragedy of her life. I'm sorry to see so many posts here from people who understand. posted by swerve at 7:11 AM on August 7, 2007
I do not agree with most of the sentiments in this thread at all. The descriptions of borderline as an untreatable illness seem like how people looked at borderline more than a decade ago. These days borderline is not by definition untreatable. It does require a therapist with experience and special training and of course the person will have to want to change.
I'm sure you're right-- from a clinical perspective. Many of us here have only our personal experiences to draw on, and the multiple failures of our uninformed attempts to help. For the individual who is enmeshed with a person who is borderline, getting away is often the best and most direct advice. When a (team of) therapist(s) or psychiatrist is needed, the one lone person, who is trying to act out of love or friendship, is ineffectual. If you don't get out, you catch it yourself-- I mean that their chaos and emotionality and never-ending emergencies become yours, as well. So yeah, medical treatment. And if you're working with somebody who actually realizes that they have a problem-- that the mess of their life is not the fault of their lovers, or friends, or parents-- then perhaps the prognosis is good. The proper help and guidance in a clinical setting might make all the difference and bring them to health; but one single person who is tied to the borderline merely by their emotional of famiial relationship is not in a position to do this. posted by jokeefe at 8:06 AM on August 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
Maybe the Borderline Personality diagnosis I had for a few years was a mistake; I was never as bad as what people describe here. Golly. Now I have things to point to to show how sane and reasonable I am in comparison. posted by davy at 8:09 AM on August 7, 2007
This thread has been pretty great -- best of the Metafilter indeed.
Yeah, what he said. And nickyskye is one of the treasures of this site.
if BDP is indeed a disease, I bet we all share it to a certain extent.
Nonsense. That's like saying because sometimes we don't feel like eating, we're all anorexics. I hate the "aren't we all really psychotics/Nazis/fetishists?" attitude. No, we're not. There may be no such thing as a perfectly normal person, but that doesn't mean everyone's a raving loony. (Note: Non-PC terminology meant as over-the-top humor à la wonderchicken; I respect the serious nature of mental illness and do not mean to belittle it. Thank you for your concern.) posted by languagehat at 8:17 AM on August 7, 2007 [8 favorites]
True, not everybody's good enough to be a raving loony. It's truly a gift, a mark of distinction.
One weekday around 9 A.M. in 1986 I saw a guy squatting in a closed store's doorway on Market St. in San Francisco, next to a steaming pile of human turds, wiping his ass with Wonderbread, piece after piece, while he jabbered to himself and sundry of the hundreds of passersby. He was as thorough as one can be, but he should used pitas or a stack of corn tortillas. This was before hand sanitizer and I did not see any moist towelettes nearby: that's the part that bothered ME. posted by davy at 8:34 AM on August 7, 2007
Thank you, languagehat. I have OCD and nothing annoys me more than when people suggest that everyone has that to some degree. No, they do not. Same with every other mental disorder out there. posted by agregoli at 8:36 AM on August 7, 2007
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Thanks for posting this.
posted by psmealey at 11:32 AM on August 6, 2007