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Can't act. Slightly bald. Also dances.
August 8, 2007 9:51 AM   Subscribe

Fred Astaire was a pimp.
posted by oneirodynia (149 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite

 
You mean a pimp like, "Is Fred Astaire gonna have to choke a bitch"-pimp or pimp like "He is an interesting person"-pimp. I don't think that Fred Astaire was a pimp. In fact, I find the idea is pretty depressing.
posted by billysumday at 9:56 AM on August 8, 2007 [3 favorites]


If by pimp you mean he was an artistic genius, then yeah, he was a pimp.
posted by blucevalo at 10:00 AM on August 8, 2007


Ginger better have my goddamn money.
posted by Pollomacho at 10:01 AM on August 8, 2007 [6 favorites]


Listening to them all at once isn't the catastrophe you might think. It's pretty catastrophic, mind.
posted by nthdegx at 10:02 AM on August 8, 2007


It's from a quote in one of the youtube links- "Goddamn, Fred Astaire was a pimp." Probably should have put it in quotes, but goddamn, Fred Astaire is a pimp.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:02 AM on August 8, 2007


He was a pimp who defied gravity. Those are the most dangerous.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:04 AM on August 8, 2007


If by pimp you mean that his name is literally synonymous with "good dancer" and that anyone who wants to see him dance can do a search on youtube, then yeah, he's big pimpin, yo.
posted by 23skidoo at 10:04 AM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


The Sartorialist discusses Astaire's awesome sense of personal style.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:05 AM on August 8, 2007


I was also puzzled by the "pimp" reference, and then depressed by the fact that you actually reproduced a YouTube quote. It's like farting in a broom closet, and then inviting your friends in to appreciate the smell.

Fred Astaire is the shit, tho.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:08 AM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


This guy is not a pimp, nor is he “pimping.” Pimps are parasitic rapists that turn desperate drug addicts into slaves and then beat them up. This is a sharply dressed old dude that understands being a grown-up is about having class and decorum no matter where you are or what you’re doing.
posted by Artw at 10:08 AM on August 8, 2007 [29 favorites]


Sorry if I ruined your day, KokuRyu. Maybe watching some sweet sweet tap dancing will cheer you up.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:10 AM on August 8, 2007


Hey man, it's not just me.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:13 AM on August 8, 2007


Artw - Not all "pimps are parasitic rapists that turn desperate drug addicts into slaves and then beat them up. "

Carmello, my pimpin' cat, is the only male in a five female feline household, is rather cuddly, and only wants a little stroking and some good eats every once in a while. ;-) Can you blame him?
posted by NotInTheBox at 10:17 AM on August 8, 2007


If I was a boy, my parents would have named me "oneirodynius".
posted by oneirodynia at 10:17 AM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Being somewhat of an "old guy" and having actually seen Fred in the theatre (not dancing cause I'm not that old yet), I don't think I would call him a pimp.

I don't remember him availing himself off the travails of women prostituting themselves....

Fantastic dancer. Smooth as silk. Pimpy? No way.
posted by pezdacanuck at 10:17 AM on August 8, 2007


I am having a Dark Side of the Rainbow moment where I want to see if I can match up an Astaire video with AMG's Bitch Betta Have My Money.

Because that be about as wrong as you can get.
posted by quin at 10:20 AM on August 8, 2007


NotInTheBox - I suspect your "pimp" is actually a cat, and as such is defaulting to regular cat behaviour. It's probably very cute, but scaled up to man size he'd be a terrifying engine of rapacious violence.
posted by Artw at 10:21 AM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


"Hey man, it's not just me."

Day ruined by use of the word pimp rather than by concentrating on the linked content? Really, it is just you.
posted by nthdegx at 10:21 AM on August 8, 2007


What is wrong with you people? Fred Astraire was, indeed, a pimp.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:21 AM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Here's my favorite youtube comment: "It's obviously fake." And of course by "favorite" I mean the one that suddenly makes me depressed with the realization that people don't understand that if you work hard you can have talent anymore. Because why bother when there's CGI.

Oh, it's hard out there for Fred Astaire... when he's tryna dance all crazy with a chair.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:24 AM on August 8, 2007 [6 favorites]


Carmello has a barbbed penis.
posted by Pollomacho at 10:24 AM on August 8, 2007


TPS - Amen (People are really getting wound up with terminology and the use of that term as slang).

Artw - Still disagree, Carmello has not a bit of that in his nature (big or little in stature).
posted by NotInTheBox at 10:29 AM on August 8, 2007


I was playing electronica on Pandora when I queued up the YT vids. Pretty interesting combo.
posted by desjardins at 10:29 AM on August 8, 2007


This is not just us being Politically Correct. Whatever moron decided years ago that it's ok to symbolically reward positive behaviour with the moniker of pimp, is well, a moron.

Well, you get the idea. A pimp is as was defined earlier and there should not be any association to any sort of positive link. Think of it like rape or sexual assault. These are negative behaviours. That's all there is to it.

And Fred was a gentleman, not a pimp
posted by pezdacanuck at 10:30 AM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


Pollomacho - You should be ashamed of yourself.
posted by NotInTheBox at 10:30 AM on August 8, 2007


It ain't me, babe.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:31 AM on August 8, 2007


Pollomacho - You should be ashamed of yourself.

Sorry, just wanted to go with the theme of raining on people's parades.
posted by Pollomacho at 10:32 AM on August 8, 2007


"Whatever moron decided years ago that it's ok to symbolically reward positive behaviour with the moniker of pimp, is well, a moron."

Ok, agree. But, unfortunately, it is being used in that way. Things like this are the reason why ginormous is now in the dictionary. Pimp is next guys, pimp is next. ;-)

I really like ginormous and am working very hard to over use it.
posted by NotInTheBox at 10:35 AM on August 8, 2007


Pollomacho - you didn't rain on my parade, I was only teasing.
posted by NotInTheBox at 10:36 AM on August 8, 2007


And if Fred Astaire was a pimp, then Ginger Rogers was a nappy-headed 'ho. Hope the terminology doesn't bother you.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:37 AM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Maybe we can reappropriate "Rapist" or "Crackhead" next.
posted by Artw at 10:38 AM on August 8, 2007


KokuRyu - LOL!
posted by NotInTheBox at 10:38 AM on August 8, 2007


I nearly ruined my parents' living room as a kid trying to do Astaire's cane spinning with a bo staff my brother had for martial arts. Glass top coffee table... not a good choice, mom.
posted by spec80 at 10:39 AM on August 8, 2007


Damn, Fred Astaire was one serious crackhead! He had some damn smooth rapist moves out there!
posted by Pollomacho at 10:40 AM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


Artw - best idea since slice bread award. I'll work on that next time I'm downtown or at school. I think it will really go over great. Like narly or sweet but better.
posted by NotInTheBox at 10:41 AM on August 8, 2007


Spec80 - we stopped talking about the actual post eons ago, keep up brother, keep up. ;-)
posted by NotInTheBox at 10:43 AM on August 8, 2007


Fred Astaire was a kike nigger.
posted by DU at 10:46 AM on August 8, 2007


Sigh... I'm not a dino and I can be as hip and groovy as the next guy/gal ;o) but shouldn't we put our collective ginormous foot down on things like this?

Oh well. KokuRyu, here is your "nappy headed 'ho" dancing away with Freddie. I don't think she ever wore a veil. So that should make her just a 'ho, to use your terminology.
posted by pezdacanuck at 10:47 AM on August 8, 2007


It's not *my* terminology.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:49 AM on August 8, 2007


Sorry, misunderstanding/reading problem.
posted by pezdacanuck at 10:57 AM on August 8, 2007


NotInTheBox - Giant Size Carmello would eat you, then steal your woman, then eat her, then take a dump on both of you and go off to find a giant size you to snuggle against. It is just the way of cats. in a way it is what makes them so cute, that and their adorable illiteracy and poor typing skills.
posted by Artw at 11:03 AM on August 8, 2007


Here's my favorite youtube comment: "It's obviously fake." And of course by "favorite" I mean the one that suddenly makes me depressed with the realization that people don't understand that if you work hard you can have talent anymore. Because why bother when there's CGI.

"It's obviously fake": the last refuge of the latter-day cynic.
posted by blucevalo at 11:06 AM on August 8, 2007


I have documents that demonstrate that Fred Astaire taught Iceberg Slim how to dance an elegant Bolero. I don't know if that resolved the issue of whether Astaire was a pimp, or if it just makes the subject more confusing. All I know is that bitches can't resist a man with castanets, performing an exquisite contradanza and sevillana.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:08 AM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Well I, for one, am shocked by this revelation and absolutely appalled at the complete lack of public outcry. A beloved cultural icon turns out to have been little more than a sex predator -- a low-down exploiter of women -- and not a peep about it in any of the papers or cable news shows. Unbelievable! WHERE IS THE MEDIA UPROAR ABOUT THIS?! I can't help but wonder how differently this story would have been handled had Mr. Astaire been a prominent black sports figure, instead of an old white guy from Abbot and Costello movies.

It must be said: At long last, America, have you no sense of decency?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


Patiently awaiting the Fred Astaire/Fat Joe/Lil Wayne mashup -- Isn't it a lovely day to make it rain on dem ho's.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2007


It's hard out there for a pimp incredibly talented, graceful, and stylish song-and-dance man.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2007


Ginger better have my goddamn money.

Backwards-dancin' high-heels-wearin' Ginger better have my goddamn money.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:18 AM on August 8, 2007


Mr. Astaire was a gifted dancer who deserved every ounce of respect he received for his talent and then some.

Pimps do not deserve respect, so Mr. Astaire is not a pimp.

...

I'm curious...how many folks here using the word "pimp" have spent time with or around actual pimps?
posted by batmonkey at 11:21 AM on August 8, 2007


I own a cat - does that count?
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on August 8, 2007


I'm curious...how many folks here using the word "pimp" have spent time with or around actual pimps?

I have. Although more ponces than actual pimps.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:33 AM on August 8, 2007


Artw: not really, unless he's an outdoor kitty and is somehow profiting from running the in-heat honeys for catnip or something. There are worse ways for a cat to make his way in this world. Cat gangsters spend a lot of time crawling out of water-filled bags.

PeterMcDermott: Would you equate Fred Astaire as a pimp?
posted by batmonkey at 11:41 AM on August 8, 2007


Perfumed ponce!
posted by KokuRyu at 11:44 AM on August 8, 2007


Note, also: when Michael Jackson described himself as "bad" in a positive light, he was way, way out of line. His popularizing a converse usage was certainly not "dope", as the kids today, god save their miserable descriptivist little souls, like to say.

And considering our current nationwide challenges with obesity, it's certainly not "phat". Which isn't even the correct spelling, thankyouverymuch.

Now get off my lawn before I'm forced to contact an officer of the law.
posted by cortex at 11:45 AM on August 8, 2007


Fred Astaire was the greatest dancer ever seen on film. Fred Astaire was one of a kind. Fred Astaire was born Frederick Austerlitz on May 10, 1899, in Omaha, Nebraska. Fred Astaire was married twice. Fred Astaire was born in the Middle Western city of Omaha, Nebraska, in eighteen ninety-nine. Fred Astaire was born a century ago this week. Meeting a big star like Fred Astaire was quite a thrill for a guy like me. Fred Astaire was born Frederick Austerlitz to Austrian immigrants on May 10, 1899, in Omaha, Nebraska. Fred Astaire was amazing. Fred Astaire was in a dazzling amount of films and plays. Fred Astaire was plagued by interviewers who wished to know who his favourite dance partner was. Astaire was now left to work alone and try to establish himself as a leading man. Fred Astaire was a perfectionist, both with his dancing and his singing performances. Fred Astaire was the American movie dancer of the 1930s and 1940s. Fred Astaire was a man who, though he was not conventionally handsome, was appealing to millions and used what he had to make magic. There can be little argument that Fred Astaire was one of the great dancers of the Twentieth Century. Fred Astaire was the embodiment of class and style-characteristics all Freds should emulate. Fred Astaire was one of the great influences on my own unique style of masculinity when I was a little tomboy movie addict. Fred Astaire was born into this world to show how the Gershwin music should really be danced. Astaire was a more formal, trained dancer who loved waltzing and only danced with the girls. Fred Astaire was the consummate perfectionist. Fred Astaire was fortunate in getting to introduce some of the great standards of the American Popular Songbook.

All these things, a simple google reveals. Why choose TomWilkinsonEsq's dumb youtube comment for the title? It can't be that slapping a handful of youtubes together took so much effort that you didn't have time or energy left to think of something better.
posted by pracowity at 11:46 AM on August 8, 2007


I believe the quote in question introduced the article a where it was not intended and makes little sense. Fred Astaire was indeed pimp, used as an adjective. That said, as nice as it is to see Fred Astaire in the middle of my work day, this post, without any context, is no better than the results provided by searching you tube for fred astaire.
posted by sequential at 11:47 AM on August 8, 2007


{Still refusing to believe my lovely handsome kitty would "eat you, then steal your woman, then eat her, then take a dump on both of you and go off to find a giant size you to snuggle against. It is just the way of cats."}

Not having it. (Yes, I might have an unhealthy relationship with my pussy, but who's the judge of that anyways?)

I'm female btw.
posted by NotInTheBox at 11:50 AM on August 8, 2007


No, I have not spent time with a pimp, but I have an intimate understanding of pimp culture. Or my name isn't Devious Honey L. Tickle.
posted by miss lynnster at 11:50 AM on August 8, 2007


On post, what pracowity said. (And s/you tube/youtube/, damnit.)
posted by sequential at 11:50 AM on August 8, 2007


Criminy, what a bunch of nannygoats. If a Youtube user calling the most debonair, suave, elegant and stylish man in the known universe a "pimp" fails to make you smirk just a little bit, you need to stop reading MetaFilter immediately and go immerse yourself in every single edition of The Onion right now, because your sense of amusement is clearly in the late stages of calcification.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:50 AM on August 8, 2007


Wonderful point, this was not such an excellent post, and the conversation that has followed is still of little value. (Yup, I've commented A LOT of times)
posted by NotInTheBox at 11:52 AM on August 8, 2007


Adjust any gender specific references accordingly. You still get eaten. Giant size you still gets snuggled.
posted by Artw at 11:52 AM on August 8, 2007


Cortex, did you ever consider the fact that, if not offensive, "pimp" is just a moronic word, plain and simple, *when used in this context*?
posted by KokuRyu at 11:53 AM on August 8, 2007


pracoeity, with all due respect, if you can't enjoy the man dancing without encyclopedic information slathered on top, this post was not designed for you. Have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit and just sit back and enjoy it, maybe. Or not.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:53 AM on August 8, 2007


oops, sorry for the typo. pracowity.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:54 AM on August 8, 2007


KokuRyu, that is entirely the point of using the silly word.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:56 AM on August 8, 2007


Now she's trolling her own thread. Yeesh.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:56 AM on August 8, 2007


Criminy, what a bunch of nannygoats. If a Youtube user calling the most debonair, suave, elegant and stylish man in the known universe a "pimp" fails to make you smirk just a little bit, you need to stop reading MetaFilter immediately and go immerse yourself in every single edition of The Onion right now, because your sense of amusement is clearly in the late stages of calcification.

Yes, but confusing that with real-life pimps is also very funny in it's own way, and is making me smirk a lot.
posted by Artw at 11:56 AM on August 8, 2007


Um, no, I'm pointing out that the irony of calling Fred Astaire a pimp is amusing to me, and hopefully to other people. Obviously, I was wrong about some of the other people.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:59 AM on August 8, 2007


Cortex, did you ever consider the fact that, if not offensive, "pimp" is just a moronic word, plain and simple, *when used in this context*?

I've considered and accepted the possibility that (as evidenced above) folks might think it's moronic, but it's my considered opinion that those people are displaying tremendously thin skin and either a lack of exposure to or a willful rejection of completely damn harmless slang.

In this context it was praise utterly independent of the notion that (a) Fred Astaire ran a prositution ring or (b) herding prosititutes is an admirable profession worthy of comparison to dancing. In this context it's maybe a little ironic in that Fred Astaire is an old dead white dude and so a few decades removed from modern slangy positive use of "pimp", but a little irony never hurt anybody by its lonesome.

Freak out about positivist, sex-work-unrelated use of "...is a pimp" if you want to, but it's damned silly, and this lawn isn't getting any offer of in the mean time.
posted by cortex at 11:59 AM on August 8, 2007


Holy shit, I must be getting old...
posted by KokuRyu at 12:04 PM on August 8, 2007


this post was not designed for you.

This post was not designed. But I don't want to make a big deal about it (especially here, instead of in the dreaded MetaTalk) because there have already been so many comments on the slow asphyxiation of MetaFilter by youtuberculosis.

I think I will have that nice cup of tea and a biscuit, though.
posted by pracowity at 12:04 PM on August 8, 2007


I think white people should use the word "nigger" more often.

Only in the positive sense, of course.
posted by Artw at 12:06 PM on August 8, 2007


All right, fine, "pimp" is a harmless bit of slang, but it sounds pretty dumb, and I wasn't able to tell that oneirodynius was using it in an ironic way.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:10 PM on August 8, 2007


THANK you Cortex for putting that so well.
posted by NotInTheBox at 12:13 PM on August 8, 2007


(And not to speak for our own wigu, but somewhat related.)
posted by cortex at 12:22 PM on August 8, 2007


Look, there are all kinds of posts on MetaFilter that I've enjoyed, some very intricate and highly researched, and some quick one-offs that were short and enjoyable. I've been pleased to find one link posts to material I've already seen, but enjoyed being reminded of anyway. I could have googled "Fred Astaire" and put in a bunch of biographical info, but what interested me more was just the plain fact that watching this man dance is joyful and fun. I deliberately left out any other info that anyone who was interested in could easily google, as well as leaving out any clips or articles about his dancing partners. I don't see why there has to be some sort of homogeneous post standard where you must be forced to pad your posts with a bunch of other stuff in order to please anyone who frets about single links, or YT, or anything that people fret about here. I may be in the majority, but sometimes a simple, enjoyable video of something fun and cool hits the spot perfectly. I watched these videos last week and they made me happy. So I posted them. I figured anyone who was interested in delving further could post some of the other things about Fred Astaire that they found interesting. Clearly I misjudged the severe lack of any sort of sense of humor about the word "pimp", and that entirely derailed this thread. But your little dig about the post not being designed is baloney; I just didn't design it the way you and some other people wanted it to be. Sorry, but I just thought Fred dancing stands alone.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:23 PM on August 8, 2007


majority minority.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:24 PM on August 8, 2007


nthdegx: Day ruined by use of the word pimp rather than by concentrating on the linked content? Really, it is just you.

I guess I must have missed the "day ruined" part. But feel free to indulge yourself in some condescension.
posted by lodurr at 12:24 PM on August 8, 2007


oneirodynia - You go!! You go and you post whatever you damn well please. Good for you and ROCK ON!
posted by NotInTheBox at 12:25 PM on August 8, 2007


I love watching Fred Astaire. But I do occasionally find our tendency to turn ugly things cute (like "pimp" to "pimpin'") a little bit depressing.
posted by lodurr at 12:26 PM on August 8, 2007


People are a little mean sometimes here.... don't let it get to you.
posted by NotInTheBox at 12:26 PM on August 8, 2007


You know who else was a pimp?
posted by Stynxno at 12:26 PM on August 8, 2007 [2 favorites]


"... this lawn isn't getting any offer of ..."

What sort of offer would a lawn be apt to get, anyway? "Would you like to lie on the soil and be green?"
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:27 PM on August 8, 2007


It's hard out there for a pimp Fred Astaire.
posted by dismas at 12:30 PM on August 8, 2007


What sort of offer would a lawn be apt to get, anyway?

Twenty bucks, same as in town.
posted by cortex at 12:30 PM on August 8, 2007 [1 favorite]


I set 'em up, they knocks 'em down.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:31 PM on August 8, 2007


I feel like, as a person, I've matured in my tastes and appreciations.

Which is why I hate to admit that I still find the vice dos and don'ts so god damned funny.
posted by Alex404 at 12:41 PM on August 8, 2007


Devious Honey L. Tickle: thank you for introducing me to the world of Pimp Cups and the full range of Grillz.
-But I thought your name was Wilda.
posted by MtDewd at 12:47 PM on August 8, 2007


OK, I confess, the whole "Fred's got some great rapist moves!" bit did make me laugh out loud. But to me that kind of joke is funny because it points out the insidious banality of usages like "pimp" for "suave".

(... and also because it made me think of Tobias Funke, the world's first and only Analrapist. [I'm sorry, I have a headache and I really can't think of a way to present that last bit so that it's actually funny, so maybe someone could help out, mkay?, thanks....])
posted by lodurr at 12:49 PM on August 8, 2007


-But I thought your name was Wilda.

Curiously enough, I've only ever met one person named 'Wilda' in my entire life. Prior to a few months ago, the only other place I'd ever heard that name was on an old 3 Stooges short. ("Their names are Hilda, Tilda and Wilda.")

More curiously, I've been getting a lot of spam lately that incorporates the name 'Wilda'.

Curiouser still, the one 'Wilda' I've ever met happens to be my mother. (And no, Devious Honey L. Tickle is not my mother.)

Wait... MtDewd, are you saying something about my mother? I'm confused, and I think I should probably be angry. Headache, though.
posted by lodurr at 12:53 PM on August 8, 2007


He was a swinger, that's for sure! (First with Rita Hayworth, second GREAT number with Paulette Goddard.)
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:56 PM on August 8, 2007


Alex404 - every so often i rediscover them and spend ages paging through them. Funny stuff.
posted by Artw at 1:00 PM on August 8, 2007


If by "pimp," you meant elegant, then yes. If by "that honky smacked around some hos," you meant he could dance, then I agree. If by "that high riding SOB turned a sixteen year old homeless be-otch into a strung out freak machine" you meant he had grace, then certainly. It's merely a mater of semantics.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:04 PM on August 8, 2007


Artw, that's what I just blew the last 2 hours doing.
posted by Alex404 at 1:13 PM on August 8, 2007


Damn you people and your good memories.

And son, please don't talk about me on the internet. You know how I feel about that.
posted by miss lynnster at 1:49 PM on August 8, 2007


lodurr- I am hoping that it was miss lynnster who a few months back let slip that her name was Wilda. If not, then I apologize to everyone, including your mother. Maybe miss l is responsible for the spam???
posted by MtDewd at 1:50 PM on August 8, 2007


It sure is hard out here for a pimp...
posted by inigo2 at 1:53 PM on August 8, 2007


By the way, his dancing aside... and age... and baldness... and big ears... etc. etc., I lurved him with Audrey Hepburn in Funny Face. That movie totally gets me all girly.
posted by miss lynnster at 2:03 PM on August 8, 2007


Man, I've gotta go rent Funny Face again.
posted by miss lynnster at 2:07 PM on August 8, 2007


Pez, wrong kind of nappy.
posted by oats at 2:11 PM on August 8, 2007


YOU ARE NOT MY MOTHER!!!!!

.... er.... no offense ... actually, my mom's kind of uptight and would probably get really offended at this whole thread, including my part in it, so....

Holy crap. And here I was all that time thinking 'Wilda' was just something my granny thought up to be perverse.
posted by lodurr at 2:11 PM on August 8, 2007


Non-pimp comment: What, no CGI Zombie Gene Kelly Breakdancing from beyond the grave?
posted by Artw at 2:28 PM on August 8, 2007



OH

MY

GOD

posted by Firas at 2:38 PM on August 8, 2007


NotInTheBox: I got distracted by a celebrity phone number post in oh no they didn't. Keeping up = failure. Curses. Are we back on topic? I don't even know anymore. Where am I?
posted by spec80 at 2:41 PM on August 8, 2007


I am hoping that it was miss lynnster who a few months back let slip that her name was Wilda.

Twice even!

And I kinda like the name Wilda, though "Lynnster" is definitely more fun to say.
posted by quin at 2:52 PM on August 8, 2007


FYI, "The girl's name Wilda \wi(l)-da\ is of Old English and Old German origin, and its meaning is "Untamed; willow tree." Also: "wild one/wild thing."

Y'know it's kinda horrifying that everything I've ever said in here is sitting there on public record now. Is there any kind of an erase button? Jess? Matt? Cortex? Anybody?
posted by miss lynnster at 3:03 PM on August 8, 2007


Mr. Astaire would not have said "_____ is a pimp." Probably wouldn't have said "_____ is crunk" either.
posted by jfuller at 3:08 PM on August 8, 2007


Also: "wild one/wild thing."

This is my unsurprised face. Anyone who reads your posts can clearly see the madness that you possess.

This is why we like you.

posted by quin at 3:31 PM on August 8, 2007


Pimp really isn't a harmless bit of slang.

Real pimps look at the spread and overuse of the word as excellent ground cover for getting away with their evil. They look at it as endorsement of their lifestyle. They look at it as supremely optimised recruiting opportunities.

If you want to sign yourself up for supporting that, obviously, that's your right. Just don't expect everyone else to suddenly forget what pimps really are and what pimps really do.

While I'm stacking up the killjoy points, rape really isn't funny.

Maybe that's just true for anyone who's ever had it happen to them or someone they cared about, but, at this point, it'd be nice if other people could step into other people's shoes just long enough to see that sometimes it's worth it to filter things out, even if it is just to let a stranger have a slightly easier time enjoying public entertainment like everyone else.

Why people will get all frothy over being able to use crappy words like "pimp" and "rape" and the pejorative use of anything related to "gay" in contexts where there are much more entertaining and useful words available, I will never understand.

Criminally mpoverished vocabularies and cro-magnon guffaws aside...

Poor Fred Astaire. He deserved better than this.
posted by batmonkey at 3:44 PM on August 8, 2007


Anything you say may be used as evidence against you.
posted by MtDewd at 3:46 PM on August 8, 2007


If you want to sign yourself up for supporting that, obviously, that's your right. Just don't expect everyone else to suddenly forget what pimps really are and what pimps really do.

And by the same reasoning, use of "bad" to mean other than "negative, unmeritorious, not good, etc" provides excellent ground cover for terrorists and criminals and your generic doer of evil.

Honestly, it's the idea that one has to have a criminally impoverished vocabulary to not get their tits in a wrench over casual use of colloquial usage—usage that has, whatever protestations you may want to make about "pimp" as a description of a sex-trade occupation, drifted well out of direct reference and into neutral, non-malicious territory—that is most insulting about this.

Stepping into the other party's shoes goes both ways: undeniably, closeness to a given topic or subject or situation will color your feelings about it, and in some cases that may lead to an understandably negative or humorless reaction to what other people are just fine getting along with. I'd probably consider my words re: "pimping" around e.g. a friend I knew to have had a negative experience in the sex trade, but that's reasonable, personal consideration, which is a far cry from asking people to just not use common idiom because maybe someone, somewhere, will take it badly.

I don't expect anyone to forget what pimps are or what they do—at least not until something fundamental changes about the world and they cease to exist for long enough to pass into the history books—but I'd expect that others would be able to keep their heads above water well enough to see that railing against evolving usage qua evolving usage just because a previous step in the etymology is something ugly is stubborn and pushy and futile besides.

As far as rape not being funny, no argument. The only people who have mentioned rape in this thread are folks arguing against the idiomatic use of "is a pimp", though, so I'm not sure that's much of an argument against either oneirodynia's clearly non-malicious usage or the folks who've been dissenting against the "how dare you say pimp" arguments.
posted by cortex at 4:18 PM on August 8, 2007


My reaction to the pimp thing is: Wow, I thought that came in in the late nineties and was gone at the end of the millennium. Maybe I should try out gnarly or fresh with those darn kids...

I so wanted to be Fred Astaire when I was a little kid. Even took tap lessons for a bit. Sometime around age eight I started getting self conscious is my purple sequined vests and gave it up. Kinda sorry now.
posted by meinvt at 4:28 PM on August 8, 2007


You don't know the people you're addressing in an online forum. Which would mean *more* courtesy, rather than less.

That's honestly all it is. Courtesy.

Anyway. Doesn't matter, never does. I'll go back to being quiet here.
posted by batmonkey at 4:30 PM on August 8, 2007


It does matter, and vigorous though my feelings are on the subject I'm sincerely not trying to shout you or anyone else down—just to make it damned clear that the subject cannot be simplified to "pimp-as-canon-definition is a bad thing, so don't ever use the word pimp" if the goal is reasonable conversation rather than eggshell dancing.

Courtesy is a good commodity, and something I at times wish there was more of on Mefi; mostly during the uglier moments of interpersonal contention that spring up here. But courtesy is also extending the benefit of the doubt when you are taken aback by something, and considering the possibility that your strong negative reaction to something that you didn't expect to be offended by might just as likely be owed to your own misapprehension of the situation as anything.

The idea that oneirodynia would be thought to have meant anything negative at all by their post is jarring to me, and I've got no love in my heart for exploitative sex-trade bullshit. This is a clash of language currency, not a promotion of organized prostitution.
posted by cortex at 4:41 PM on August 8, 2007


Entirely unrelated to pimping, the actual quote is:

"Can't sing. Can't act. Balding. Can dance a little."
posted by tzikeh at 5:28 PM on August 8, 2007


Metafilter: It's like farting in a broom closet.
posted by Espoo2 at 5:36 PM on August 8, 2007


click the word pimp; that video pretty clearly illustrates the point everyone has missed. just look at all those bitches -- he's a pied piper to them.
posted by xndr at 6:22 PM on August 8, 2007


cortex...

Honestly, it's the idea that one has to have a criminally impoverished vocabulary to not get their tits in a wrench over casual use of colloquial usage—usage that has, whatever protestations you may want to make about "gay" as a description of a sexuality, drifted well out of direct reference and into unrelated, weak, ineffectual and distasteful—that is most insulting about this.


Not a direct parallel, granted, but good evidence against the idea that semantics can operate independently of politics. Kids who grow up in Corn Hole, IA and learn "gay" as "crummy" before they learn it as "queer" are still accountable for their half of communications with people who have other understandings of the term, and emotional reactions to its deliberate change in usage. Language is colloquial, but in its interpretation, personal experience or pre-existing vocabulary are relevant.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:33 PM on August 8, 2007


Wrong nappy too eh? Oh well, I'll just stick to thinking and using the original wording from its own original context.

No pimping here...
posted by pezdacanuck at 6:40 PM on August 8, 2007


Pimping is well weapon.
posted by Artw at 6:46 PM on August 8, 2007


Kids who grow up in Corn Hole, IA and learn "gay" as "crummy" before they learn it as "queer" are still accountable for their half of communications with people who have other understandings of the term, and emotional reactions to its deliberate change in usage.

Absolutely. But, as you say, "gay" as "bad" is not a direct parallel of "is a pimp" as "badass". I could write a book, but the short version:

- "gay as bad" is a perpetuation/evolution of "gay as homosexuality=bad". It's actually, in my humble, an improvement, in that while it's still a stupid pejorative and carrying on a tradition of anti-homosexual sentiment, it's much more abstract than direct homophobic rhetoric when it's being lazily uttered by 12-year-olds playing Counter-Strike. Faint praise, indeed, that, and I've hollered at people for using it as such unselfconsciously on more than one occasion.

- "is a pimp" and "is pimp" and "pimp my [noun phrase]" are extensions of a selective acquisition of a pop-culture digestion of flashy pimps. Specifically, it's an acquisition of the dressy/flashy/colorful/badass bits of the pop cartoon—sassy dude in a purple fur-lined trench and a cane doing the strut to some disco. The idea that someone is using "is a pimp" or "pimp my ride" or whatever other variation to try to celebrate sex-work rather than as a reference to this ironic cartoonish image is really weird to me, because it doesn't even make sense. For pretty much anyone who isn't a sociopath, "pimp" in the sense of "person who exploits others to profit of sex work" is a pejorative, and remains so regardless of the new idiomatic, positive uses. These are not even the same word, to the degree that the variations on "gay" above are.
posted by cortex at 7:04 PM on August 8, 2007


Entirely unrelated to pimping, the actual quote is:

"Can't sing. Can't act. Balding. Can dance a little."


That's the apocryphal quote, but according to Astaire himself, it was what I used above.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:07 PM on August 8, 2007


Loved the vidoes. What silk, what finesse.

Language is funny. Words go in and out of fashion, their meanings change too. For example, the etymology of the word pimp: "1607, perhaps from M.Fr. pimper "to dress elegantly" (16c.), prp. of pimpant "alluring in dress, seductive." Weekley suggests M.Fr. pimpreneau, defined in Cotgrave (1611) as "a knave, rascall, varlet, scoundrell." The word also means "informer, stool pigeon" in Australia and New Zealand and in S.Africa, where by early 1960s it existed in Swahili form impimpsi. The verb is attested from 1636. Pimpmobile first recorded 1973."

/derail

So, an E-flat, a G-flat, and a B-flat walk into a bar.
And the bartender says,
"I'm sorry, we don't serve minors."
That struck a chord.
Careful with those puns, you'll get in treble.
But they're key to my humour.
And very noteworthy.

posted by nickyskye at 7:24 PM on August 8, 2007


I have to make this fast because I'm on my way out the door - pub trivia!, but as seen upthread, Astaire is seen to be a pimp for being followed around by the ladies in the last link. Blurring the distinction between alluring control and abusive control over women is a way machismo culture in this country elides rebuke, and is supported by the language we're discussing. "Pimp," to me is the linguisitc tip of a gangsta gender relations iceberg. "Till all dem bitches crawl" and such... Okay gotta skeet skeedaddle.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:49 PM on August 8, 2007


You raise a very precise issue Ambrosia, but I think Pimp doesn't necessarily require the person characterised as such necessarily fit that sort of "mistreat, fuck and run" mentality (I'd be skeptical that someone who takes such a mindset too literally would actually be in too many fulfilling relationships themselves.)

Attention that endears as opposed to attention that harasses is inherently an ambiguous spectrum in any cultural context, not to mention that rogue-like behavior has manifested a certain conceptual appeal even for women regardless if it literally manifests as being an asshole (think Casanova, Don Juan, etc.)
posted by Firas at 8:06 PM on August 8, 2007


Boy, I thought there would be 125 comments about how awesome Fred Astaire was. No, I get a MeTa thread about people failing to understand how language and usage evolves over time.

I watched all his old movies some 20+ years ago as a teen and thought they were "da bomb", even though there were no explosives involved. And this was before anyone even said "da bomb" so I'm lying because I really thought they were peachy keen because I've always been somewhat behind the times. Which is inaccurate because I really can do something as simple as take meaning from context and understand that to pimp these days is to be somewhat stylin'.

This is textbook plate of beans overthinking if I ever saw it.
posted by DonnieSticks at 10:41 PM on August 8, 2007


Firas: my point, clarified, would be that using the noun "pimp" to denote "a man popular with women" rather than "a flashy/luxe man" is a more problematic interpretation of actual pimp attributes (the treatment of women as sexual chattel and physical and mental abusiveness to engender dependence). I think we can agree that the popular usage of "pimp" is about both these things.

I think you're basically feeling me, but the "rogue" argument you're making describes behavior well center of literal pimping and many espoused attitudes toward women in that bastion of misogyny, rap music, where "pimp" came from, on the abuse-and-denigration-of-women spectrum. Cheating ain't beating.

Fred? Fred, are you turning over gracefully in your grave?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:46 PM on August 8, 2007


cortex: And by the same reasoning, use of "bad" to mean other than "negative, unmeritorious, not good, etc" provides excellent ground cover for terrorists and criminals and your generic doer of evil.

Excluded middle.

Here's the thing: We have (and by "we" I mean "humans", as far as I can see, at least) a tendency to take words that have have pretty inarguably bad connotations (like "pimp", "nigger", "bitch", "thug", "[w]ho[re]", "yankee", "G[overnment]I[ssue]", just to name a few) and turn them into terms of honor.

On the positive side, this often serves the purpose of claiming positive associations for something your oppressor has chosen to cast as negative. "Yankee" is probably an example of that -- even if the "John Cheese" etymology is false, it was a label applied to natives by an outsider group, then adopted by the natives and even by natives to whom it wasn't applied (i.e., non-Dutch).

People find such semantic migrations offensive for different reasons. Omar Bradley is said to have had a strong dislike for the term "GI" as applied to soldiers because he found it disrespectful ("men are not 'government issue'", he's supposed to have remarked). We can dredge up tons of similar examples but let's just start with Don Imus: Does anyone on this thread really think it was harmless to call a bunch of college-age girls who probably take shit every day for being tall and masculine "nappy-headed hos"?

"Pimp" (and "ganster" and "thug" when used as terms of admiration) are a little different. At a semiotic level, I'm with batmonkey on this, 100%: Using those terms as positive labels just dilutes the censure on the source. I'm just never going to agree with anyone who doesn't accept that, at least as long as the original meaning is still in common usage; it just doesn't make sense to call it "harmless" if you accept that it's possible to influence the way people think via the language that you use.

And if you ever choose words carefully -- and presumably you do, if you take the trouble to use a colorful label like "pimp" -- you must, if you're not a stone hypocrite. admit that your choce in language has an influence on how people perceive what you're saying.

So, no, "pimp", "ho", "slut", "bitch", "gangster" -- these are not harmelss terms. No, their use does not destroy civilization as we know it. But it's just silly not to recognize that [a] there are better, more creative alternatives, and [b] you can make a choice not to engage in semiotic de-sensitization.
posted by lodurr at 5:15 AM on August 9, 2007


On the subject of creativity in language use...

Terms like "pimp" in their common usages seem to me quite clearly to be an impoverished use of language, but in a way that's a little non-intuitive. "Pimp", as AV and cortex have clearly illustrated, has very rick connotations, to say the least. But when it's used, it's generally used without any real awareness of those connotations. It's slipping in under radar, carrying tons of baggage with it that will be activated in many different ways for many different readers/listeners. Some people will see the rest of AV's iceberg; others will get an image of ghetto-grandeur; still others will think about white urban youth culture (which AFAICS is where the word has most currency).

So people using the term are sending out all kinds of loaded messages they don't even understand that they're sending. This isn't a "Corn Hole IA"-style accident of upbringing: These kids are just using the term stupidly, they know damn well what it means and they are just not thinking about it. That's sloppy, to say the least. They really don't have what I regard as an acceptable excuse, for the most part.
posted by lodurr at 5:31 AM on August 9, 2007


"... very rich connotations ..."
posted by lodurr at 5:35 AM on August 9, 2007


No argument that a lot of people (kids, in particular) use speech lazily and that lazy use of overloaded word-forms isn't the Alamo worth defending here, so to speak; it's the lack of context shifting that bothers me, where the front page is assumed to be more the house of lazy, thoughtless speech than a place where, say, a fixed phrase would be worth blinking at and considering. Rich history indeed: so why all the twitchy assumptions that the intended reading was the weirdest and least charitable possible?

But I can see the flip-side of it, and there's no arguing that oneirodynia could have chosen some other more conservative choice of words and avoided this whole (wholly undeserved, in my h.) flareup. It remains a little bizarre to me that the reaction it got is what it got—like someone getting fired for using "niggardly" appropriately in a blank context—but I recognize that the sex-neutral ironic praise use of "...is a pimp" might not be near as common trade as I'd assume it to be. Well, heck.
posted by cortex at 7:02 AM on August 9, 2007


... the intended reading was the weirdest and least charitable possible?

Huh? I think just about everybody but AV got the intended reading wrong, but they actually read it in a more charitable way -- as in, "that Fred, he so fine."

But then they also read the rich cultural subtext, and got something like "That Fred, he such a abusive, ho-beating mofo. And he wear a lot of yellow, too." Which kind of doesn't gibe with the Fred Upstairs we all knew and loved. (Except for that yellow part. So much of it'sl black and white, who would know?)

So the careless use of language backfires on MeFi because as a sample, MeFites tend to be quite a bit more literate than average. And then some of us, in addition, got irritated by the semiotics of the thing.
posted by lodurr at 7:18 AM on August 9, 2007


Huh? I think just about everybody but AV got the intended reading wrong, but they actually read it in a more charitable way -- as in, "that Fred, he so fine."

First, why do you think that that was not the intended reading? Why do you think that must be an overly charitable misreading?

Second, there are a number of comment early in the thread that contradict the idea that AV's (genuinely nuanced) reading is the only overtly negative one:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...
posted by cortex at 7:54 AM on August 9, 2007


Fine, then they had both readings close to simultaneously. Which one is first in the phrase they report doesn't indicate their first perception. It is clear, though, that for most of the cases you cite, both readings are in mind and are acknowledged.

Why do I think that was the "wrong" (i.e., unintended) reading? The "pimp" link looks to me (in hindsight) as though it's meant to evoke the sense of him being like a pimp or sheikh or what have you. I find that a more negative reading than "Fred's pimpin'" -- i.e., he is displaying a powerful sense of style. I think that's a more positive reading; maybe that's just me.

4 is an odd choice, btw. It's one line: "Hey, it's not just me." So, which was his first reading? As with the others, impossible to say; and of course, I can only give my own account. The story that makes sense for me is that people read "Fred is stylish ans suave" first, then are reminded that the eponymous pimps are not nice people.

But maybe you're right. Maybe, in this era of tabloid journalism, the first thought on people's minds was "somebody discovered that Fred Astaire used to pimp his sister when they were in Vaudeville."
posted by lodurr at 8:08 AM on August 9, 2007


Fine, then they had both readings close to simultaneously. Which one is first in the phrase they report doesn't indicate their first perception. It is clear, though, that for most of the cases you cite, both readings are in mind and are acknowledged.

I'm not going to knock anyone for free association, so I follow you that far, but if both readings are in mind and there's no reason to assume the nastier one was intended, why bring it up in what's hard to read as other than a rebuke?

I'd be just as weirded out if someone said "Fred Astaire was dope" and people responded with comments like "If by 'dope' you mean he was a great dancer, I agree; if by 'dope' you mean he was marijuana, I'm depressed by your druggie-agenda characterization of this great man." If both readings were truly in mind, it seems, yes, fussy and uncharitable to bother harping on the distinction without a good reason.

But maybe there is a good reason to think that oneirodynia was trying to imply, by linking to a bunch of showtunes, that Fred Astaire was a literal pimp. I just don't see it at all, but I understand that I might be going into this blinded by what I perceive (maybe wrongly) as the simplest and most common-sensical reading of the post.

4 is an odd choice, btw.

I thought KokoRyu's response in 4 suggested that they not only read it darkly but rejected the notion that their reading wasn't the (silent majority) concensus, as a follow-up to a response to their initial rebuke.

I can't say for sure that the You'll Never Get Rich bit from the "pimp" link wasn't intended to raise the notion that he was a literal pimp, but it seems like an awful stretch when we're talking about an (in character!) dance troupe in a showtune number—Fred-as-well-liked-group-director makes a lot more sense than Fred-as-womanmonger to me, but that could just be my reading.
posted by cortex at 8:29 AM on August 9, 2007


I'd be just as weirded out if someone said "Fred Astaire was dope" and people responded with comments like "If by 'dope' you mean he was a great dancer, I agree; if by 'dope' you mean he was marijuana, I'm depressed by your druggie-agenda characterization of this great man."

Not only would that be a strange reading, but just about everyone would agree that its' a strange reading. So I don't think that's a very good analogy.

A better analogy would be if someone responded to that by saying "... if by 'dope' you mean he was stupid ..."
posted by lodurr at 8:39 AM on August 9, 2007


Wait, Fred Astaire isn't dope?

*Puts down crack pipe.*
posted by miss lynnster at 8:56 AM on August 9, 2007


Fair enough. And the key thing here on the point of disagreement is that while I think the "is a pimp" reaction is just as bizarre, bad analogy or not, as either "dope" response, I can buy that my reaction is a kind of overt itself and dependent on context. What bothered me initially was the seemingly disrespectful reaction to what I have trouble seeing as an even remotely disrespectful post; the later-on assertions that actually being conversant in and being willing to use current idiom somehow necessarily equates to laziness or stupidity or poor vocabulary just plain pisses me off whenever I come across it, so fuddy is its duddiness.

I wish people would not so often mistake either of (a) language they don't like or (b) language that they hear kids use for (c) language that is bad or wrong or unacceptable. But I'm kind of a pain in the ass that way: I love language and wordplay to death, and hate seeing it corralled or shat on reflexively to serve some notion of either cleanliness or status quo. It's something I feel very strongly about, but by that token something I try not to go off about because it leads to, e.g., paragraphs-long back-and-forths about a word here or an idiom there in a conversation that's allegedly about Fred Astaire. So I'll try to hush up about it now.
posted by cortex at 9:02 AM on August 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


I think my problem is that I didn't see people actually misunderstanding the term. It's possible that some people did on first read -- it was kind of designed that way -- but I saw nothing in thread that spoke to me of anyone coming in without understanding that "is a pimp" was supposed to be a good thing.

As for the later-on assertions, I'm also not seeing that. I know what I meant: I meant that use of that particular idiom necessarily entails diluting censure on the original referents for the term 'pimp'. I know some people opined that it betrays a lack of imagination; I said something like that, myself.

To my mind, if one 'loves wordplay', one has to be prepared for one's wordplay to have an effect on people. Otherwise, one loves an illusion: Wordplay with no consequences, no effect on the listener. Sometimes that effect is negative. If one really loves wordplay, one has to be prepared for that.

I see this with amateur poets and writers all the time, too (espcially poets). They know what they meant, and they get bent, basically, if anyone tells them that's not what they heard. Well, if you are trying to be effective in your communications, you need to care what people hear, not just what you are intending to say. It's OK to then go on and decide that you don't care, to make an informed decision that those particular people don't matter to you as an audience. Oneirodynia could decide to do that, and she'd be perfectly justified in doing so -- but it would be in very bad form, to say the least, to then make sport of people for not getting her point.
posted by lodurr at 9:39 AM on August 9, 2007


I wish people would not so often mistake either of (a) language they don't like or (b) language that they hear kids use for (c) language that is bad or wrong or unacceptable.

I think we have more shit-stirrers than actual nannygoats around here. And, though it's almost an annoyance being compelled to come in to fix a mire of poorly executed attributions of malfeasance by use of culturally fraught terms, PimpLOL is the only way some people choose to hop in the ring and express their interest in the border areas of language as a cultural topic, it being somewhat difficult to analyze, and so I appreciate that they've shown they're open to these analyses at all. They're not "just words" and no one here has claimed that.

Damn, bitch got the run-ons.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:45 AM on August 9, 2007


I don't think that's technically a run-on. Not that it really matters, it's just that it's a pet peeve of mine, when people take a sentence, which may have a perfectly lawful albeit confusing form, and which may be a little over-long and have too many clauses strung together to readily afford easy understanding, and then they proceed to condemn it as a run-on without really understanding what a run-on sentence is.

Though I guess you did run on a bit. But so did I. "RunonLOLX!"
posted by lodurr at 10:04 AM on August 9, 2007


I think we can come together in our shared love for subordinate clauses and embeddings, regardless. Hugs!

Commas are pimp, is what I'm trying to say.
posted by cortex at 10:12 AM on August 9, 2007


*pictures a comma roughing up a period and demanding it's money, then going out to get drunk with a semicolon*

*smiles*

posted by quin at 10:37 AM on August 9, 2007


Q: Why couldn't the punctuation mark give a shit?
A: Because it was only a semi-colon.
posted by lodurr at 11:21 AM on August 9, 2007


Q: Why do astronauts who fly near the sun let their sentences just sort of trail off at the end?
A: Solar ellipses.
posted by cortex at 11:24 AM on August 9, 2007


Q: What kind of punctuation do you use to keep crows away?
A: Scare-quotes.
posted by lodurr at 12:16 PM on August 9, 2007


Q: What do you call a story about punctuation marks having sex?
A: Slash fiction.
posted by cortex at 12:52 PM on August 9, 2007 [1 favorite]


Also, Ralph was a literal viking.
posted by cortex at 3:38 PM on August 9, 2007


Ralph Richardsson? Father of the infamous Hrafnkell Ralphsson? Oh, yeah, he was the worst. Almost as bad as Gordon Gecko.

Gordon was a literary viking.
posted by lodurr at 4:58 AM on August 10, 2007


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