I want to sit in a hole and drink chardonnay while reading a book - thanks very much.
September 26, 2007 10:47 PM Subscribe
Sydney-Filter. Why does Sydney suck so much (particularly when compared to Melbourne)? The Australian Hotels Association labelled Melbourne "a land of skivvy-wearing, chardonnay-drinking book readers" and said Sydneysiders are fit outdoorsy types that don't like to sit in a hole in the wall. Clover thinks otherwise, and now you can join her.
The Australian Hotels Association got a reprieve today - as you would expect, and the bill of the independent MP Clover Moore to allow cheaper liquor licences for small bars may have to wait until next month. Get to it.
The Australian Hotels Association got a reprieve today - as you would expect, and the bill of the independent MP Clover Moore to allow cheaper liquor licences for small bars may have to wait until next month. Get to it.
I'm a skivvy-wearing, chardonnay drinking, bookreading, fit outdoorsy type that doesn't like to sit in a hole in the wall.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:14 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by Ironmouth at 11:14 PM on September 26, 2007
You know things are getting bad when even Keating is taking the non-Sydney side of this....
posted by pompomtom at 11:17 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by pompomtom at 11:17 PM on September 26, 2007
The rum corp still rules here it seems.
posted by strawberryviagra at 11:26 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by strawberryviagra at 11:26 PM on September 26, 2007
After hearing the state premier on the radio today considering reducing the current enforced downtime on poker machines (you can't play between 4am and 10am in pubs), coupled with the fact NSW has by far the highest per capita number of poker machines in the world, well, it makes it clear who is lining his campaign pockets.
That said, the hotel industry is mighty generous to the conservatives too, which is why they are quietly agreeing with the government that Sydney doesn't want small bars.
Oh, and the billions in poker machine taxes that flow into government coffers don't hurt. We wouldn't want to offer an alternative that would take punters away from the pokie halls.
The only issue I see is that we might get what we wish for.
Westfield is on the record as supporting the changes to allow small bars, they would like to put them in their shopping centres, which would be pretty grim.
posted by bystander at 11:36 PM on September 26, 2007
That said, the hotel industry is mighty generous to the conservatives too, which is why they are quietly agreeing with the government that Sydney doesn't want small bars.
Oh, and the billions in poker machine taxes that flow into government coffers don't hurt. We wouldn't want to offer an alternative that would take punters away from the pokie halls.
The only issue I see is that we might get what we wish for.
Westfield is on the record as supporting the changes to allow small bars, they would like to put them in their shopping centres, which would be pretty grim.
posted by bystander at 11:36 PM on September 26, 2007
Why does Sydney suck so much (particularly when compared to Melbourne)?
The only thing keeping Melbourne sucky was lack of Rugby League, and Melbourne are in their second Grand Final this weekend.
posted by vbfg at 11:38 PM on September 26, 2007
The only thing keeping Melbourne sucky was lack of Rugby League, and Melbourne are in their second Grand Final this weekend.
posted by vbfg at 11:38 PM on September 26, 2007
That is such rubbish...
Sauvignon blanc and pinot are far more popular than chardonnay these days in Melbourne.
posted by wilful at 11:38 PM on September 26, 2007
Sauvignon blanc and pinot are far more popular than chardonnay these days in Melbourne.
posted by wilful at 11:38 PM on September 26, 2007
vbfg, do you know how many Melburnians care about the mungo game?
Anyway, freeing up the licensing laws was one of Kennett's better moves (speaking as a Kennett hater). The Sydney hoteliers successful resistance to change merely indicates the corruption of NSW politics.
posted by wilful at 11:41 PM on September 26, 2007
Anyway, freeing up the licensing laws was one of Kennett's better moves (speaking as a Kennett hater). The Sydney hoteliers successful resistance to change merely indicates the corruption of NSW politics.
posted by wilful at 11:41 PM on September 26, 2007
As an ignorant USian with a tendency to idealize things, when I think of Melbourne, I think of breathtaking redheads with skin like Antarctica and gorgeous sun kissed asians, living in a sea of a million subcultural opportunities. Basically heaven on Earth.
When I think of Sydney I think of the Crocodile Hunter and Paul Hogan jousting against each other in speed boats, while Yahoo Serious referees by drinking himself into a coma.
posted by bunnytricks at 11:41 PM on September 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
When I think of Sydney I think of the Crocodile Hunter and Paul Hogan jousting against each other in speed boats, while Yahoo Serious referees by drinking himself into a coma.
posted by bunnytricks at 11:41 PM on September 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
Yeah, Melbourne has it all over Sydney in this department. For eating out as well.
posted by Wolof at 11:46 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by Wolof at 11:46 PM on September 26, 2007
bunnytricks, you're confusing Sydney with Brisbane.
posted by galtr at 11:48 PM on September 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by galtr at 11:48 PM on September 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Sydney sucks for a few more reasons.
Public Transport
We have slow buses. That take 10 minutes at some stops while 20 people get on and have to pay in coins. Melbourne has fast efficent tram system.
Crappy train/bus/ferry ticket system. Melbourne's zone system is much simpler.
We'll be spending billions on a Desalination plant that most don't want. We could spend the same on giving everyone cheap solar hot water heating and rain tanks etc. Build storm water recycling plants
And yes our bars do suck. Goon security guards make you take your hat off when you get in so the cameras can spot your face. Then it's hard to have a chat because either crappy music is playing or sport on the big screen. Prices are exuberant and go up at a lot of places after 7pm.
My answer to having a quiet drink on a Thursday or Friday after work is to visit a gallery opening instead.
If these new licensing laws are introduced I will look into opening a small cafe/bar.
posted by Burgatron at 11:53 PM on September 26, 2007
Public Transport
We have slow buses. That take 10 minutes at some stops while 20 people get on and have to pay in coins. Melbourne has fast efficent tram system.
Crappy train/bus/ferry ticket system. Melbourne's zone system is much simpler.
We'll be spending billions on a Desalination plant that most don't want. We could spend the same on giving everyone cheap solar hot water heating and rain tanks etc. Build storm water recycling plants
And yes our bars do suck. Goon security guards make you take your hat off when you get in so the cameras can spot your face. Then it's hard to have a chat because either crappy music is playing or sport on the big screen. Prices are exuberant and go up at a lot of places after 7pm.
My answer to having a quiet drink on a Thursday or Friday after work is to visit a gallery opening instead.
If these new licensing laws are introduced I will look into opening a small cafe/bar.
posted by Burgatron at 11:53 PM on September 26, 2007
A friend and I were discussing how difficult it is to convice people that Sydney's a better town than Melbourne (something we both believe). He summed up both our frustrations perfectly when he said "No one really appreciates the brutality of Sydney."
posted by bunglin jones at 11:57 PM on September 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by bunglin jones at 11:57 PM on September 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Melbourne has fast efficent tram system.
Heehee. Try getting to a university by tram.
posted by nomis at 12:02 AM on September 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Heehee. Try getting to a university by tram.
posted by nomis at 12:02 AM on September 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Take the harbour away from Sydney and you've not got a lot. OK you've still got lovely beaches. But that's it.
posted by wilful at 12:07 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by wilful at 12:07 AM on September 27, 2007
vbfg, do you know how many Melburnians care about the mungo game?
These things are relative. It's the biggest sport in my town and the Storm get bigger crowds than my team.
posted by vbfg at 12:19 AM on September 27, 2007
These things are relative. It's the biggest sport in my town and the Storm get bigger crowds than my team.
posted by vbfg at 12:19 AM on September 27, 2007
As an Adeladian now living in Darwin, but who has spent some time touring the east coast, I can confirm: Melbourne fucking rules.
When I've visited Sydney, I've found the locals rude and stuck-up, there was a distinct lack of decent drinking opportunities, everyone seems to devote way to much time climbing over the next guy so they can afford to live somewhere with a harbour view. Lovely beaches? Lovely, crowded beaches. Sydneysiders seem to think they're the essence of Australia, but from someone outside Sydney, I can tell you that none of us pay much attention to what's going on over there at all.
Actually, the rude-and-stuck-up locals thing seems to apply to NSW as a whole; it started the minute we crossed into Albury.
Melbourne? Grungy, more relaxed. The locals know it's ugly, so they make their own fun. Awesome live music scene. The place just feels a lot more egalitarian. Money seems to get spent on weird art displays and cultural exhibits, instead of having the BIGGEST FIREWORKS DISPLAY.
I don't know what it is. In Melbourne, in these "hole-in-the-wall" places, and in the little cafes hidden up dank stairwells, the people in there are arrogant and pretentious. But in Sydney, even the guy in the fish and chips shop is arrogant. After all, he lives in Sydney, greatest bloody city in the nation, why shouldn't he be a rude fucker?
YMMV. Please don't hurt me, we've got crocodiles here.
posted by Jimbob at 1:17 AM on September 27, 2007
When I've visited Sydney, I've found the locals rude and stuck-up, there was a distinct lack of decent drinking opportunities, everyone seems to devote way to much time climbing over the next guy so they can afford to live somewhere with a harbour view. Lovely beaches? Lovely, crowded beaches. Sydneysiders seem to think they're the essence of Australia, but from someone outside Sydney, I can tell you that none of us pay much attention to what's going on over there at all.
Actually, the rude-and-stuck-up locals thing seems to apply to NSW as a whole; it started the minute we crossed into Albury.
Melbourne? Grungy, more relaxed. The locals know it's ugly, so they make their own fun. Awesome live music scene. The place just feels a lot more egalitarian. Money seems to get spent on weird art displays and cultural exhibits, instead of having the BIGGEST FIREWORKS DISPLAY.
I don't know what it is. In Melbourne, in these "hole-in-the-wall" places, and in the little cafes hidden up dank stairwells, the people in there are arrogant and pretentious. But in Sydney, even the guy in the fish and chips shop is arrogant. After all, he lives in Sydney, greatest bloody city in the nation, why shouldn't he be a rude fucker?
YMMV. Please don't hurt me, we've got crocodiles here.
posted by Jimbob at 1:17 AM on September 27, 2007
I love both cities. There is no doubt that Melbourne is vastly superior to Sydney in terms of its inner-city space. It will take a gargantuan effort to transform Sydney into anything even resembling Melbourne and its vibrant nighttime venues. I'm getting to it.
posted by tellurian at 1:43 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by tellurian at 1:43 AM on September 27, 2007
What? Melbourne's got Neighbours AND Kath
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:52 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:52 AM on September 27, 2007
What? Melbourne's got Neighbours AND Kath and Kim
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:53 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:53 AM on September 27, 2007
Melbourne has fast efficent tram system.Melbourne's tram system is awful. You can regularly outrun trams on bikes. Trams are also inflexible, expensive to run and are difficult to make disabled friendly. In addition fare evasion is rampant.
The tracks are a hazard to cars and cyclists and the wires are an eye sore.
The trams should go. Buses are more efficient and can better share the road.
posted by sien at 1:54 AM on September 27, 2007
Is nobody going to say anything good about Sydney? A lot of people choose to live here, you know, so there must be something appealing about the place (I'm one of them, former South Australian, myself). Yes, the place probably wouldn't be that much without the Harbour, but it does, and it makes Sydney a very gorgeous place. With the inclusion of Bondi, Manly, Darling Harbour and the Northern Beaches, I think makes Sydney nicer than Melbourne during the daytime.
Until you want to buy something.
Sydney's extremely wealthy, which means everything is more expensive. It's not just the liquor licenses. There is a dearth of small businesses here as well, because it's too expensive to set up shop here until you've established some sort of chain elsewhere in the country.
And yes the nightlife, comparatively speaking, does suck. There are some genuinely great places here, but by god they're expensive. By contrast Melbourne has lots of them, and cheaper.
As for the public transport system, I don't think it's too bad here (compared to SA at least). It's nothing like the standard they had it at during and just after the olympics though. I think the advantage of the Trams in Melbourne is that they aren't as heavily affected by peak hour traffic.
That being said, I applaud Clover Moore's efforts here. I look forward to the changes :-)
And Jimbob, almost every beer you can think of > Tooheys > VB > West End Draught ;-)
posted by kisch mokusch at 2:30 AM on September 27, 2007
Until you want to buy something.
Sydney's extremely wealthy, which means everything is more expensive. It's not just the liquor licenses. There is a dearth of small businesses here as well, because it's too expensive to set up shop here until you've established some sort of chain elsewhere in the country.
And yes the nightlife, comparatively speaking, does suck. There are some genuinely great places here, but by god they're expensive. By contrast Melbourne has lots of them, and cheaper.
As for the public transport system, I don't think it's too bad here (compared to SA at least). It's nothing like the standard they had it at during and just after the olympics though. I think the advantage of the Trams in Melbourne is that they aren't as heavily affected by peak hour traffic.
That being said, I applaud Clover Moore's efforts here. I look forward to the changes :-)
And Jimbob, almost every beer you can think of > Tooheys > VB > West End Draught ;-)
posted by kisch mokusch at 2:30 AM on September 27, 2007
I'm no Oz expert, but I do know that Melbourne's music scene is way more vibrant and interesting than Sydney's. But that bay Sydney has, yeah... the setting, it's just so pretty. Kick-ass zoo, too.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:03 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:03 AM on September 27, 2007
Sydney born & raised, and I've gotta say I love my visits to Melbourne, although I wouldn't necessarily want to live there - mostly due to longterm friends here, plus family, climate & convenient surf beaches.
The fact that Melbourne bars & nightlife rule while Sydney's are a great steaming pile of dog turd is something I could rant on about for hours.
The differences in liquor licencing laws mean that Melbourne is chock-full of eclectic, funky, unpretentious little bars. Sydney, on the other hand, is the home of the awful megapub - these things are owned by revolting corporations whose business plan is to do the same shitty aluminium stool, wooden floor "renovation" everywhere, pump the music up to 11 & try to pretend that a bar is actually a nightclub, which includes maximising standing space & making the place as fucking uncomfortable as possible.
When you *do* have somebody with enough taste to set up a nice, stylish, comfy hole-in-the-wall bar like Melbourne's, they've still gotta recoup the millions that they paid for the liquor licence, meaning that prices are super-expensive, with the result that these places become honey for the most pretentious wankers the city has to offer. So we lose both ways. (I actually blame at least some of the dickheaded arrogance of Sydney on the fact that anywhere nice has to become - by definition - "exclusive")
In contrast, anybody with about $10K can get a licence in Melbourne & set up an old shopfront in their own personal style - many Melb bars are filled with old couches from thrift stores, quirky art by local artists, lamps & knicknacks galore...and god knows we have enough nice old local heritage shopfronts decaying under the onslaught of megamall retailing empires, that would make great little local bars.
On top of that, the state govt ripped the guts out of the local music, comedy, live poetry, mini-theatre, cabaret etc scenes a decade or so ago by allowing pubs to install poker machines, which are such a cash cow that all the former entertainment venues were walled up into mini-casinos with a token bar attached. Often, charismatic old local pubs in working class Victorian-era suburbs like Balmain are sold off to more evil fucking conglomerates, just so the fuckers can take the pokie licence & relocate the machines to Chinatown/Darling Harbour. Then the pub is closed down, as the liquor licence moves with the machines.
Clover's initiative to try to wrest some liquor licencing out of the hands of the big money-grubbing fucktard hotel corporations would only be redressing past mistakes, and doing what everybody inherently knows is 200% correct: following the Melbourne licencing model.
One other recent initiative is worth mentioning: actor Russel Crowe & businessman Peter Holmes a Court have decided that the Mighty South Sydney Rabbitohs club will no longer have pokies after the current renovation. Pokies started out in clubs, and that's part of what makes this such an awesome move, and also because the Mighty Rabbitohs represent a pretty poor, working class area, where there are enough social problems without fucking people up through gambling.
Aside from that, Sydney actually has some awesome hidden places to go for a quiet drink, and where people don't suck, but I'm not about to spoil them by naming them on the intarwebs.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:23 AM on September 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
The fact that Melbourne bars & nightlife rule while Sydney's are a great steaming pile of dog turd is something I could rant on about for hours.
The differences in liquor licencing laws mean that Melbourne is chock-full of eclectic, funky, unpretentious little bars. Sydney, on the other hand, is the home of the awful megapub - these things are owned by revolting corporations whose business plan is to do the same shitty aluminium stool, wooden floor "renovation" everywhere, pump the music up to 11 & try to pretend that a bar is actually a nightclub, which includes maximising standing space & making the place as fucking uncomfortable as possible.
When you *do* have somebody with enough taste to set up a nice, stylish, comfy hole-in-the-wall bar like Melbourne's, they've still gotta recoup the millions that they paid for the liquor licence, meaning that prices are super-expensive, with the result that these places become honey for the most pretentious wankers the city has to offer. So we lose both ways. (I actually blame at least some of the dickheaded arrogance of Sydney on the fact that anywhere nice has to become - by definition - "exclusive")
In contrast, anybody with about $10K can get a licence in Melbourne & set up an old shopfront in their own personal style - many Melb bars are filled with old couches from thrift stores, quirky art by local artists, lamps & knicknacks galore...and god knows we have enough nice old local heritage shopfronts decaying under the onslaught of megamall retailing empires, that would make great little local bars.
On top of that, the state govt ripped the guts out of the local music, comedy, live poetry, mini-theatre, cabaret etc scenes a decade or so ago by allowing pubs to install poker machines, which are such a cash cow that all the former entertainment venues were walled up into mini-casinos with a token bar attached. Often, charismatic old local pubs in working class Victorian-era suburbs like Balmain are sold off to more evil fucking conglomerates, just so the fuckers can take the pokie licence & relocate the machines to Chinatown/Darling Harbour. Then the pub is closed down, as the liquor licence moves with the machines.
Clover's initiative to try to wrest some liquor licencing out of the hands of the big money-grubbing fucktard hotel corporations would only be redressing past mistakes, and doing what everybody inherently knows is 200% correct: following the Melbourne licencing model.
One other recent initiative is worth mentioning: actor Russel Crowe & businessman Peter Holmes a Court have decided that the Mighty South Sydney Rabbitohs club will no longer have pokies after the current renovation. Pokies started out in clubs, and that's part of what makes this such an awesome move, and also because the Mighty Rabbitohs represent a pretty poor, working class area, where there are enough social problems without fucking people up through gambling.
Aside from that, Sydney actually has some awesome hidden places to go for a quiet drink, and where people don't suck, but I'm not about to spoil them by naming them on the intarwebs.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:23 AM on September 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
I've had this discussion so many fucking times - I just wish I had a decent intimate bar, playing the music I like, amongst the decor I can relax in, away from the yobbos I'd rather not fist fight, eating the bar snacks I like, in an environment I don't actually have to lip read the person I'm trying to communicate with, to actually discuss it.
This is the icing on the Sydney cake that would give a sure birth to all the things that are negatively aforementioned about this place.
If Clover Moore can get this across the line - I will name my next drink after her.
posted by strawberryviagra at 4:28 AM on September 27, 2007
This is the icing on the Sydney cake that would give a sure birth to all the things that are negatively aforementioned about this place.
If Clover Moore can get this across the line - I will name my next drink after her.
posted by strawberryviagra at 4:28 AM on September 27, 2007
and get this, Sydneysiders: a large pizza in Melbourne costs under $10. seriously. not to mention tasty $4 gourmet pizzas on Brunswick St, at the former punk/indie rock stalwart, teh Punters Club (now Bimbo Deluxe).
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:28 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:28 AM on September 27, 2007
strawberryviagra: you're at Sydney Uni, right? drop me an email & I can name a couple of places in Newtown....
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:31 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:31 AM on September 27, 2007
I'm no Oz expert, but I do know that Melbourne's music scene is way more vibrant and interesting than Sydney's. But that bay Sydney has, yeah... the setting, it's just so pretty.
Sydney may look prettier, but Melbourne has charm and depth.
Of course, Sydney Harbour is the main reason the city is a bitch to get around. Whereas Melbourne is on a boring, practical city grid - but it's so easy to get from one end of the other. And both sides of the Yarra have their own personal charms.
However, Tooheys > VB.
Which is like saying syphilis is better than gonorrhea.
I personally think the better Australian beers come from states that aren't Victoria or NSW.
posted by crossoverman at 4:35 AM on September 27, 2007
Sydney may look prettier, but Melbourne has charm and depth.
Of course, Sydney Harbour is the main reason the city is a bitch to get around. Whereas Melbourne is on a boring, practical city grid - but it's so easy to get from one end of the other. And both sides of the Yarra have their own personal charms.
However, Tooheys > VB.
Which is like saying syphilis is better than gonorrhea.
I personally think the better Australian beers come from states that aren't Victoria or NSW.
posted by crossoverman at 4:35 AM on September 27, 2007
Merci, Ubu - I'm actually in Bondi Junction, but will travel way out west to indulge in the Newtown aesthetic.
posted by strawberryviagra at 4:35 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by strawberryviagra at 4:35 AM on September 27, 2007
I personally think the better Australian beers come from states that aren't Victoria or NSW.
Which is why I had to make the comparison I did; I couldn't think of any quality beers from Melbourne or Sydney to compare...
posted by Jimbob at 4:44 AM on September 27, 2007
Which is why I had to make the comparison I did; I couldn't think of any quality beers from Melbourne or Sydney to compare...
posted by Jimbob at 4:44 AM on September 27, 2007
Sydney is pretty. That's gotta count for something.
posted by chunking express at 4:57 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by chunking express at 4:57 AM on September 27, 2007
Beauty's only skin deep,
yeah yeah yeah,
beauty's only skin deep
oooohhhh yeah!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:59 AM on September 27, 2007
yeah yeah yeah,
beauty's only skin deep
oooohhhh yeah!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:59 AM on September 27, 2007
James Squire is from Sydney. Their beers are on a par with the awesome Matilda Bay beers from WA. Otherwise, SA's Coopers & WA's Redback are good. Boags & Cascade from Tassie are ok, and Southwark Stout from SA is wonderful. Nothing I can think of that's any good coming out of QLD, NT or VIC. Murrays isn't bad - also from NSW, and there are a few others, quite new on the market, like Bluetongue & Mountain Goat. Oh, there's another inner-Sydney brewery doing good stuff, like Rooftop (wheatbeer) & Beez Neez (honey wheat).
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:59 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:59 AM on September 27, 2007
All of them will be available at my hole in the wall bar - coming soon to a previously quiet cul-de-sac near you.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:03 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:03 AM on September 27, 2007
There seems to be a bit of a gap in the market, though, Ubu, between the swill and the super-special premium beers in Vic and NSW. I mean, Coopers and Southwark are just what people drink in Adelaide - they're not really considered "Premium Beers". The same goes for Boags and Cascade in Tassie.
I will admit that James Squire is a very nice drop, but it's really a bit of a specialty item, isn't it? Do people really pick up a carton of the stuff to get them through the Cricket on the weekend?
Maybe they do. I guess some people in Sydney have got some cash to spend.
posted by Jimbob at 5:08 AM on September 27, 2007
I will admit that James Squire is a very nice drop, but it's really a bit of a specialty item, isn't it? Do people really pick up a carton of the stuff to get them through the Cricket on the weekend?
Maybe they do. I guess some people in Sydney have got some cash to spend.
posted by Jimbob at 5:08 AM on September 27, 2007
THERE ARE NO CUL-DE-SACS IN THE INNER WEST!!!
they belong strictly to mcmansiondale grove gardens valley estate (situated on prestige ex defence force land only twenty minutes from the heart of historic blacktown)
anyway, here's the facebook group behind/associated with the final link in the post, above.
(ya ba(r)sta! - great stuff!)
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:11 AM on September 27, 2007
they belong strictly to mcmansiondale grove gardens valley estate (situated on prestige ex defence force land only twenty minutes from the heart of historic blacktown)
anyway, here's the facebook group behind/associated with the final link in the post, above.
(ya ba(r)sta! - great stuff!)
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:11 AM on September 27, 2007
Jimbob - at least we don't pay as much as those poor sods in WA. even premium beers here are cheaper than their tap beers.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:14 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:14 AM on September 27, 2007
FUCK!!!
I need to actually join FAceFuck to see the link. I have tried so hard to avoid the latest social engineering experiment.
Sorry - transpose ghetto with cul-de-sac.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:16 AM on September 27, 2007
I need to actually join FAceFuck to see the link. I have tried so hard to avoid the latest social engineering experiment.
Sorry - transpose ghetto with cul-de-sac.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:16 AM on September 27, 2007
(Toohey's Old is actually quite passable; I've got one cracked right now. Reminds me of Southwark Black Ale)
posted by Jimbob at 5:17 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by Jimbob at 5:17 AM on September 27, 2007
You have to join Facebook, strawberryviagra. It's the way of the future. Personally, I'm a member of the "Despite The Pathetic Americanism I've got a Kevin07 Bumper Sticker On My Car" group, and the "Doug Anthony All Stars Changed My Life" group. And I've got girls I haven't seen since grade 3 sending me messages telling me they're 38 weeks pregnant and how am I?
posted by Jimbob at 5:19 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by Jimbob at 5:19 AM on September 27, 2007
Resches - on tap.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:21 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:21 AM on September 27, 2007
Sorry - transpose ghetto with cul-de-sac.
heh - i remember somebody in the SMH backpacker blog discussing favela tours & saying (in apparent seriousness) "go and visit ghettoes back home, like Redfern & Newtown".
Toohey's Old is quite fine, as is its southern counterpart, Carlton Black. About the best generic shite on the market.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:23 AM on September 27, 2007
heh - i remember somebody in the SMH backpacker blog discussing favela tours & saying (in apparent seriousness) "go and visit ghettoes back home, like Redfern & Newtown".
Toohey's Old is quite fine, as is its southern counterpart, Carlton Black. About the best generic shite on the market.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:23 AM on September 27, 2007
OK. OK.
You make it sound so much more sophisticated than I wanted it to really be.
I'll see you in Doug Anthony All Stars, provided you're also part of Gough Whitlam's Country Members.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:24 AM on September 27, 2007
You make it sound so much more sophisticated than I wanted it to really be.
I'll see you in Doug Anthony All Stars, provided you're also part of Gough Whitlam's Country Members.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:24 AM on September 27, 2007
Toohey's Old is actually quite passable; I've got one cracked right now.
Ah, I can just picture the scene: out on the verandah of the Darwin stilt house-cum-cyclone shelter Jimbob sits, 35 celsius at night, swats mosquitoes & lobs empties at the 3m saltwater crocodile that's taken up residence in the pool, watches lightning crack over palm trees, and laughs & thinks "what am i doing here?"
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:29 AM on September 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
Ah, I can just picture the scene: out on the verandah of the Darwin stilt house-cum-cyclone shelter Jimbob sits, 35 celsius at night, swats mosquitoes & lobs empties at the 3m saltwater crocodile that's taken up residence in the pool, watches lightning crack over palm trees, and laughs & thinks "what am i doing here?"
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:29 AM on September 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
Anyone reading this who is coming to Adelaide can visit my regular little place, where we have generally fairly hot improvised music, and drink and smoke whatever people bring for themselves or are willing to share. If this doesn't suit, there's a giant 1/24 slot car track upstairs. By invitation, sure, but I'll invite you right now. Every Friday. Email in profile for directions.
posted by Wolof at 5:32 AM on September 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Wolof at 5:32 AM on September 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
That would never happen in Iemma's Sydney.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:35 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:35 AM on September 27, 2007
If a non-aussie can register an opinion, (having been in both cities) I think that city rivalries are a bit silly. My impression is that Melbourne has a bit of an inferiority complex, but it shouldn't. If I could use cities in the U.S. as examples, I would say that Melbourne is Australia's San Francisco while Sidney is Australia's San Diego or Seattle. Melbourne had the sense to keep it's electric street cars while other cities "modernized" by tearing them out. That alone gives it a certain charm.
I think the respective opera houses are an example of the differences. Sidney's is an architectural wonder and one of the most distinctive buildings in the world, but from a performance standpoint, Melbourne's built straight down into the rock beneath the city - with 15 feet of solid rock separating each of the theaters for soundproofing - is every bit as impressive, in a different way.
I enjoyed them both and would love to go back, as I'm sure I enjoyed only the briefest of introductions.
posted by spock at 5:35 AM on September 27, 2007
I think the respective opera houses are an example of the differences. Sidney's is an architectural wonder and one of the most distinctive buildings in the world, but from a performance standpoint, Melbourne's built straight down into the rock beneath the city - with 15 feet of solid rock separating each of the theaters for soundproofing - is every bit as impressive, in a different way.
I enjoyed them both and would love to go back, as I'm sure I enjoyed only the briefest of introductions.
posted by spock at 5:35 AM on September 27, 2007
And I'd love to be able to take you somewhere other than the 'sites' for you to actually get to know the characters of the city, so that you could appreciate the social fabric of the place.
Sydney is beautiful - so much more so than Melbourne - but beauty (as previously mentioned) is skin deep. It wears thin after living here for some time.
I've lived in lots of cities both here and overseas - I've found Sydney the hardest by a long shot, to meet and form meaningful friendships with people - and I've figured that it's most to do with the inaccessibility of meaningful and intimate (social) meeting places.
I'm not alone in feeling this (and I'm quite gregarious).
Small bars may not be the panacea for this, but I think it would make a huge difference.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:47 AM on September 27, 2007
Sydney is beautiful - so much more so than Melbourne - but beauty (as previously mentioned) is skin deep. It wears thin after living here for some time.
I've lived in lots of cities both here and overseas - I've found Sydney the hardest by a long shot, to meet and form meaningful friendships with people - and I've figured that it's most to do with the inaccessibility of meaningful and intimate (social) meeting places.
I'm not alone in feeling this (and I'm quite gregarious).
Small bars may not be the panacea for this, but I think it would make a huge difference.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:47 AM on September 27, 2007
I'd love to see Melbourne style bars in Sydney by the time I get back. My only concern is that we don't have enough alleys. (Half the charm of Melbourne bars is in knowing how to find the damn things.)
UbuRoivas: Did Crowe's no pokies plan actually get up? I heard the board were still discussing it, and muttering dire predictions about going broke in six months. Also, what's your take on Baron's?
posted by zamboni at 7:48 AM on September 27, 2007
UbuRoivas: Did Crowe's no pokies plan actually get up? I heard the board were still discussing it, and muttering dire predictions about going broke in six months. Also, what's your take on Baron's?
posted by zamboni at 7:48 AM on September 27, 2007
Melbourne - Man lives after chair leg penetrates eye socket and throat
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2007
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2007
Could be worse. Could be Brisbane.
(I live here but can't WAIT to get out. I'm still astounded when I meet people who've volountarily immigrated here.)
posted by Silentgoldfish at 9:09 AM on September 27, 2007
(I live here but can't WAIT to get out. I'm still astounded when I meet people who've volountarily immigrated here.)
posted by Silentgoldfish at 9:09 AM on September 27, 2007
I'm still astounded when I meet people who've volountarily immigrated here.
I think it's usually because they have contracts out on their lives in Sydney or Melbourne.
posted by stammer at 9:33 AM on September 27, 2007
I think it's usually because they have contracts out on their lives in Sydney or Melbourne.
posted by stammer at 9:33 AM on September 27, 2007
Well. If there is one thing I know for sure. Melbourne. Syndey. Where ever. Australians need to drink more.
posted by tkchrist at 2:42 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by tkchrist at 2:42 PM on September 27, 2007
Speaking as a happy Brisbanite -- what's with the Brisbane hate?
Or is this something I'd need to want to go out clubbing to understand?
posted by coriolisdave at 3:32 PM on September 27, 2007
Or is this something I'd need to want to go out clubbing to understand?
posted by coriolisdave at 3:32 PM on September 27, 2007
Sydney : Behind the Velvet Rope
(attributed to John Safran - I've not been able to confirm this, but all traces of this keep disappearing from the web, so it could be that the copyright lawyers are onto it. Sounds a lot like Safran, in any case...)
Apparently a web site has been created to encourage people to leave the house and experience Sydney nightlife.
Here's my case against...
1.You will stand in a long queue outside an elite nightclub. People will be accepted or turned away based on their attractiveness. It will be so bordering on fascism you'll wonder why the bouncer doesn't go all the way and start using that special measuring-stick that showed German school children the difference between the Aryan skull and the Jewish skull.
2.Two skinny girls will confidently walk past the long queue of nervous people. They will air kiss the bouncer and make their way in. The long queue of nervous people will look on in awe and wonder what mysterious lives the skinny girls live and what grants them this special privilege.
3.They work behind the counter at a shoe shop with the bouncer.
4. A tall bloke will walk straight on into the club, after giving the bouncer the kind of convoluted hip-hop handshake that Ice Cube must give Chuck D when they bump into each other in the Bronx.
5. This bloke also works at the shoe shop.
6. The hip-hop handshake will be so convoluted even Freemasons would mock it as being a little pretentious.
7. There will be a Rainbow 'Gay Friendly' sticker on the door because the inclusive nightclub doesn't care if you're gay- only if you're fat, 'wrong looking', old, bogan looking, rural looking, a nervous group of young guys.
8. Your wrist will be stamped upon entrance, driving home parallels with a certain period in European history.
9. Inside you'll look around the crowd. There will be a group of [missing bit]
10. The Australian DJ behind the turntables will step aside and a special guest British DJ with a shaved head will be introduced. He will have been specially flown in from England.
11. The DJ will play a remix of a catchy song you like, with the catchy bit removed.
12. You'll head for the toilets. On the doors there'll be no 'Male' or 'Female' markings but, instead, ambiguous signage. You'll pick the door with an eggplant painted on it, assuming it is meant to represent a phallus.
13. A girl on the other side of the door will explain that the eggplant represents the womanly form. You'll try the other door.
14. During you're two minute stint in the bathroom, five separate people will tell you that "the blue light's there so heroin addicts can't shoot up", all in a cocky tone that implies they're revealing a well-known fact.
15. When you stick you're arm up to the blue light, you can still clearly see your veins
16. You'll walk out. The DJ will be playing a remix of that catchy Blur 'Woohoo' song with the 'Woohoo' bit removed.
17. Followed by a remix of Rick James 'Superfreak' without the catchy bass line.
18. At the bar everyone will walk past and ignore the 'Free Postcard' rack
19. The Free Postcard rack will have been pitched to major advertisers in big boardrooms as a breakthough marketing concept that young people can't ignore.
20. Someone will talk to you at the bar. You'll be distracted by the way the liquor bottles hanging upside down still have the label the right way up. This will be the most interesting thing that will happen tonight.
21. Numerous breweries will be trying to pass off something that tastes exactly like Sub Zero as 'a brand new revolution in drinking', based on the fact that their label has the same typeface as the new 'Pulp' album.
22. A nervous bloke at the bar will momentarily think that the pretty girl who asked him for a light was only using it as an excuse to start chatting to him.
23. She was only using it as an excuse to start chatting to him.
24. It's too late. He's lost faith. Both go home alone.
25. On the wall there will be a poster. The poster will feature a big photo of Mel C with a headline that gives the impression she'll be appearing at the nightclub next Friday night. Small print will qualify that there will be no Mel C, it's in fact just a small record company promotion with five crappy CDs given away.
26. In the corner a bunch of kids dressed like the cast of Trainspotting will have just taken a 38th of an ecstasy tablet each. They'll argue over whether it's dangerous to drink water or dangerous to not drink water.
27. You will go to the cigarette machine. Lying on top will be copies of the weekly 'street press', the bastion of independent journalism. John Laws-style, every article will be about a band/album/club that has taken out a full page advertisement.
28. You'll feel the urge to leave. As "I Will Survive" is played, everyone on the dance floor will lip sync with annoying "I'm being ironic" faces.
29. Same if it's an Abba song.
30. Everyone will secretly like the nerdy Abba song
31. On the way out of the club you'll note a group of beautiful young things sitting on the couch with the affectations of famous people.
32. They all work at a deli next to the shoe shop where the bouncer works.
I know you won't listen to me. Fine. Go out to a club. See if I care. But after you've had enough of the throbbing sounds and dancing
monkeys, leave. Then go get yourself a sweet 7-Eleven hot chocolate, walk to a park and lie under the stars...preferably with the girl
from the shoe shop...
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2007
(attributed to John Safran - I've not been able to confirm this, but all traces of this keep disappearing from the web, so it could be that the copyright lawyers are onto it. Sounds a lot like Safran, in any case...)
Apparently a web site has been created to encourage people to leave the house and experience Sydney nightlife.
Here's my case against...
1.You will stand in a long queue outside an elite nightclub. People will be accepted or turned away based on their attractiveness. It will be so bordering on fascism you'll wonder why the bouncer doesn't go all the way and start using that special measuring-stick that showed German school children the difference between the Aryan skull and the Jewish skull.
2.Two skinny girls will confidently walk past the long queue of nervous people. They will air kiss the bouncer and make their way in. The long queue of nervous people will look on in awe and wonder what mysterious lives the skinny girls live and what grants them this special privilege.
3.They work behind the counter at a shoe shop with the bouncer.
4. A tall bloke will walk straight on into the club, after giving the bouncer the kind of convoluted hip-hop handshake that Ice Cube must give Chuck D when they bump into each other in the Bronx.
5. This bloke also works at the shoe shop.
6. The hip-hop handshake will be so convoluted even Freemasons would mock it as being a little pretentious.
7. There will be a Rainbow 'Gay Friendly' sticker on the door because the inclusive nightclub doesn't care if you're gay- only if you're fat, 'wrong looking', old, bogan looking, rural looking, a nervous group of young guys.
8. Your wrist will be stamped upon entrance, driving home parallels with a certain period in European history.
9. Inside you'll look around the crowd. There will be a group of [missing bit]
10. The Australian DJ behind the turntables will step aside and a special guest British DJ with a shaved head will be introduced. He will have been specially flown in from England.
11. The DJ will play a remix of a catchy song you like, with the catchy bit removed.
12. You'll head for the toilets. On the doors there'll be no 'Male' or 'Female' markings but, instead, ambiguous signage. You'll pick the door with an eggplant painted on it, assuming it is meant to represent a phallus.
13. A girl on the other side of the door will explain that the eggplant represents the womanly form. You'll try the other door.
14. During you're two minute stint in the bathroom, five separate people will tell you that "the blue light's there so heroin addicts can't shoot up", all in a cocky tone that implies they're revealing a well-known fact.
15. When you stick you're arm up to the blue light, you can still clearly see your veins
16. You'll walk out. The DJ will be playing a remix of that catchy Blur 'Woohoo' song with the 'Woohoo' bit removed.
17. Followed by a remix of Rick James 'Superfreak' without the catchy bass line.
18. At the bar everyone will walk past and ignore the 'Free Postcard' rack
19. The Free Postcard rack will have been pitched to major advertisers in big boardrooms as a breakthough marketing concept that young people can't ignore.
20. Someone will talk to you at the bar. You'll be distracted by the way the liquor bottles hanging upside down still have the label the right way up. This will be the most interesting thing that will happen tonight.
21. Numerous breweries will be trying to pass off something that tastes exactly like Sub Zero as 'a brand new revolution in drinking', based on the fact that their label has the same typeface as the new 'Pulp' album.
22. A nervous bloke at the bar will momentarily think that the pretty girl who asked him for a light was only using it as an excuse to start chatting to him.
23. She was only using it as an excuse to start chatting to him.
24. It's too late. He's lost faith. Both go home alone.
25. On the wall there will be a poster. The poster will feature a big photo of Mel C with a headline that gives the impression she'll be appearing at the nightclub next Friday night. Small print will qualify that there will be no Mel C, it's in fact just a small record company promotion with five crappy CDs given away.
26. In the corner a bunch of kids dressed like the cast of Trainspotting will have just taken a 38th of an ecstasy tablet each. They'll argue over whether it's dangerous to drink water or dangerous to not drink water.
27. You will go to the cigarette machine. Lying on top will be copies of the weekly 'street press', the bastion of independent journalism. John Laws-style, every article will be about a band/album/club that has taken out a full page advertisement.
28. You'll feel the urge to leave. As "I Will Survive" is played, everyone on the dance floor will lip sync with annoying "I'm being ironic" faces.
29. Same if it's an Abba song.
30. Everyone will secretly like the nerdy Abba song
31. On the way out of the club you'll note a group of beautiful young things sitting on the couch with the affectations of famous people.
32. They all work at a deli next to the shoe shop where the bouncer works.
I know you won't listen to me. Fine. Go out to a club. See if I care. But after you've had enough of the throbbing sounds and dancing
monkeys, leave. Then go get yourself a sweet 7-Eleven hot chocolate, walk to a park and lie under the stars...preferably with the girl
from the shoe shop...
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2007
UbuRoivas: I think it's from Safran's "Music Jamboree" tv show.
posted by John Shaft at 4:10 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by John Shaft at 4:10 PM on September 27, 2007
zamboni: Baron's is fine, as well. Basically, I can't taste the difference between all the mass generic lagers - carlton, vb, tooheys new, reschs pilsener (so not a pilsener!) etc - all sugary & lacking in any real character or bite. any brewery that branches out & produces ales, porters, real pilseners, wheatbeers & so on gets my vote.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:16 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:16 PM on September 27, 2007
John Shaft: quite likely. You can almost hear the exact delivery, no? And the text features a reference to one of the stunts he pulled on that show: taking out an ad in the street press & having a glowing review written. From memory, the band reviewed didn't even exist, and the "review" simply paraphrased the press release that Safran had written.
I'm still puzzled as to why I can't find the Velvet Rope transcript above anywhere on the web, though. Almost certainly, the lawyers must be on the case & demanding that hosts remove the content (just act stupid, mattamyntex! if necessary, paste Steven C den Beste rants in response to the lawyers - that'll throw them off!). Doesn't sound like a very clever strategy for marketing the Music Jamboree DVD, I must say. Since Safran is clearly not unintelligent, the only conclusion I can come to is that he directs his lawyers this way because he is an utter wanker.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:25 PM on September 27, 2007
I'm still puzzled as to why I can't find the Velvet Rope transcript above anywhere on the web, though. Almost certainly, the lawyers must be on the case & demanding that hosts remove the content (just act stupid, mattamyntex! if necessary, paste Steven C den Beste rants in response to the lawyers - that'll throw them off!). Doesn't sound like a very clever strategy for marketing the Music Jamboree DVD, I must say. Since Safran is clearly not unintelligent, the only conclusion I can come to is that he directs his lawyers this way because he is an utter wanker.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:25 PM on September 27, 2007
jimbob, try mountain goat for decent melbourne (brewed in richmond) beer: http://www.goatbeer.com.au/
posted by wilful at 5:06 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by wilful at 5:06 PM on September 27, 2007
That's a bit rich, isn't it? After all, you've piked out of every single one so far...
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:39 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:39 PM on September 27, 2007
I just assumed you bastards didn't like children - I come as a package, a savage horde.
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:47 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by strawberryviagra at 5:47 PM on September 27, 2007
Ubu & John Shaft: Sort of - it's a bit from Music Jamboree on the 90s club scene with the numbers filed off.
posted by zamboni at 5:54 PM on September 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by zamboni at 5:54 PM on September 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Excellent.
posted by strawberryviagra at 6:16 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by strawberryviagra at 6:16 PM on September 27, 2007
The Melbourne music scene is better than the Sydney music scene because Sydney lost it's local music station when 2JJ, Sydney's public "youth" station, got turned into JJJ, the nationwide "youth" station.
Thanks to FBI (50% Australian music, half of that Sydney) that has started to reverse in the last few years (to the point where even Will & Toby put a band venue in their re-development of the Oxford Hotel in Darlinghurst, replacing the notorious cocktail bar Gilligan's, though they are re-structuring because the punters don't drink enough). Now there are lots of venues and lots of bands.
Melbourne is "nice", but Sydney is the New York and LA of Australia combined. People move here because they want to make money, get famous, work in film/ publishing/ TV/ advertising, etc. Lots of people.
And they need bars.
(I'm generally surprised when I meet people (socially) born and bred in Sydney. They tend to stick to the suburbs they were born in, away from the urban fringe areas filled with imports.)
posted by hifimofo at 6:54 PM on September 27, 2007
Thanks to FBI (50% Australian music, half of that Sydney) that has started to reverse in the last few years (to the point where even Will & Toby put a band venue in their re-development of the Oxford Hotel in Darlinghurst, replacing the notorious cocktail bar Gilligan's, though they are re-structuring because the punters don't drink enough). Now there are lots of venues and lots of bands.
Melbourne is "nice", but Sydney is the New York and LA of Australia combined. People move here because they want to make money, get famous, work in film/ publishing/ TV/ advertising, etc. Lots of people.
And they need bars.
(I'm generally surprised when I meet people (socially) born and bred in Sydney. They tend to stick to the suburbs they were born in, away from the urban fringe areas filled with imports.)
posted by hifimofo at 6:54 PM on September 27, 2007
Melbourne is "nice", but Sydney is the New York and LA of Australia combined. People move here because they want to make money, get famous, work in film/ publishing/ TV/ advertising, etc. Lots of people.
Sydney is definitely the LA of Australia.
Nothing is the NY of Australia.
posted by crossoverman at 8:51 PM on September 27, 2007
Sydney is definitely the LA of Australia.
Nothing is the NY of Australia.
posted by crossoverman at 8:51 PM on September 27, 2007
I heard Baron's was going to close. Last time I went there it smelt terrible - but then lots of venues do now because with the smoking ban you can actually smell stuff.
Sydney may have Modular, but Melbourne has the wonderful ex-Honky Tonks, Third Class which is still the best club in Australia.
It would be totally awesome if Sydney could get some decent small venues. It might not be to everyones tastes but I've got a soft spot for 77 and more places like that would be great.
posted by sam and rufus at 8:58 PM on September 27, 2007
Sydney may have Modular, but Melbourne has the wonderful ex-Honky Tonks, Third Class which is still the best club in Australia.
It would be totally awesome if Sydney could get some decent small venues. It might not be to everyones tastes but I've got a soft spot for 77 and more places like that would be great.
posted by sam and rufus at 8:58 PM on September 27, 2007
sam and rufus: I also initially thought zamboni was referring to the bar, but it was actually baron's beer.
the bar itself was alright; one of few places in sydney even vaguely like a melbourne bar, but with the standard sydney malaise: noise & crowds. standing room only, more often than not.
my experience of melbourne bars is that people don't normally put up with being on their feet all night just to be somewhere that doesn't completely suck. if there's nowhere for you & your friends to sit & chat, you just go somewhere else. no problem - there are another dozen places to choose from within a block or two.
and yeh, i also read that baron's was closing.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:52 PM on September 27, 2007
the bar itself was alright; one of few places in sydney even vaguely like a melbourne bar, but with the standard sydney malaise: noise & crowds. standing room only, more often than not.
my experience of melbourne bars is that people don't normally put up with being on their feet all night just to be somewhere that doesn't completely suck. if there's nowhere for you & your friends to sit & chat, you just go somewhere else. no problem - there are another dozen places to choose from within a block or two.
and yeh, i also read that baron's was closing.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:52 PM on September 27, 2007
I came to the conclusion some time ago that Queensland is the Florida of Australia.
posted by Jimbob at 10:11 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by Jimbob at 10:11 PM on September 27, 2007
Baron's beer eh? Sunny afternoon. Little to do. Looks like I now have a plan!
posted by sam and rufus at 10:13 PM on September 27, 2007
posted by sam and rufus at 10:13 PM on September 27, 2007
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This is it in a nutshell.
/book reader
posted by tellurian at 11:14 PM on September 26, 2007