Comments on: Comments on 6535

Post number 6535

kliuless — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:38:52 -0800

No Logo slash site. Naomi Klein's book has it's own site based on slashcode. New media for the anti-corporate masses :)

By: davidmsc

davidmsc — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:46:37 -0800

We have to take the good (MeFi and it's format/style) with the bad (Klein's "NoLogo" site). Pretty ironic that her warped philosophy and message are allowed to spread thanks to the creations/inventions/efforts of the very corporations that she purports to loathe. Maybe her use of said technology will make her realize the error of her ways? Hey - we can hope.

By: rebeccablood

rebeccablood — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:01:54 -0800

ha! davidmsc. protest all you want. you will be un-assimilated. rcb

By: mw

mw — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:02:07 -0800

Don't hold your breath, David. Consistency is not a hallmark of the conspiracy theorists of the left.

By: Doug

Doug — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:19:25 -0800

Way to not get things, Dave. Maybe you should try reading her book, and you may end up sounding less foolish.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:30:25 -0800

Though a bit young for him, Naomi might consider dating Ralph Nader. They would have much to talk about.

By: kliuless

kliuless — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:38:42 -0800

i'm with doug, way to brand someone a conspiracy theorist, mw.

By: frednorman

frednorman — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:00:36 -0800

Self-contradiction of the month: http://www.nologo.org/icons/nologo.jpg Funny how much money you can make by mocking money-making, really.

By: mw

mw — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:18:27 -0800

Postroad: Ms. Klein, if I'm not mistaken, is married to Avi Lewis, TV talk-show host and son of Stephen Lewis, former NDP leader (the NDP is the farthest left "mainstream" party in Canada). kliuless: My understanding is that Ms. Klein believes that governments and big-business are in cahoots to impose things like free trade for purposes of eroding countries' sovereignty and that corporations are relentlessly and insidiously working their sinister presence into our lives (in schools, for example) through advertising, etc., and that they hold an especially pernicious form of power over us consumers as a result. If I am right about this, I stand by the label. If not, I'll be happy to be corrected.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 14:10:07 -0800

I think the word "conspiracy" is a little strong. Take it out, and your above explanation reads like a Republican party platform statement.

By: mw

mw — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 14:46:54 -0800

This book is hinged on a simple hypothesis: that as more people discover the brand-name secrets of the giant logo web, their outrage will fuel the next big political movement, a vast wave of opposition squarely targeting transnational corporations . . . -- from the introduction to No Logo. "secrets of the giant logo web"? No, you're right, that doesn't sound like a conspiracy theorist at all. Also, this: ...the financial crisis was a conspiracy orchestrated by corporate America to send Asian companies into bankruptcy, then buy their assets at fire-sale prices. I think I pegged her pretty accurately.

By: ceiriog

ceiriog — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 14:48:46 -0800

frednorman: Self-contradiction of the month. Also known as irony. The book is called No Logo, and yet it has a logo. Those crazy po-mo conspiracy nuts.

By: rebeccablood

rebeccablood — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 15:12:04 -0800

the truth is out there.... rcb

By: tranquileye

tranquileye — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 18:54:00 -0800

davidmsc: Corporations didn't invent the Internet, and Slash is open source, so I'm not sure what your point is. mw: This isn't about conspiracy per se, and Klein isn't conspiracy theorist. Read her book. frednorman: You're missing the point. There's nothing wrong with anyone making a living, is there?

By: muppetboy

muppetboy — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:33:25 -0800

The same people who think Klein is a left-wing conspiracy kook probably also think that Adam Smith thought capitalism was good thing. In both cases, it's obvious that they just haven't read them!

By: davidmsc

davidmsc — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:52:20 -0800

Tranquileye: If you read v-e-r-y slowly, you'll note that I did not claim that corporations invented the internet. I know the whole story about DARPA, Cerf, Berners-Lee, etc, but it took Corporate America to invent the Web as we all know & love it. You know - the web that allows us to do things like MeFi, shop Amazon, read CNN, watch Shockwave, etc. Oh, and of course, the underlying stuff, too, like the software and backbone that we all use daily to embrace the Web. That's right - Corporate America, with all of the attending logos, profit-seeking, branding, and empire-building that goes with it. Ain't capitalism great?!

By: Big Fat Tycoon

Big Fat Tycoon — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:20:27 -0800

Capitalism's grrrreat if you don't work 100-hour weeks for a handful of pennies. 'Course, what do we care about those poor saps, eh?

By: Doug

Doug — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:25:13 -0800

Hey Davidmsc, did you have to be so condescending and rude to tranquileye (who was actually being civil to you)? He clearly did read your post, even though it's pretty obvious you haven't read the book that ultimately inspired this thread. In fact, maybe you should go back and V-E-R-Y slowly read your original post, and we can all laugh at how silly it is together. Those against "corporate America" aren't necessarily against corporations and what they produce, but the way in which those corporations currently operate, and affect lives and politics. There might be a contradiction if a No Logo tv show appeared on Must See TV, sponsored by Budweiser and The Gap, but that hasn't occurred.

By: artlung

artlung — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:11:39 -0800

Now that is some wonky ass HTML code.

By: lagado

lagado — Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:22:09 -0800

Good to see the quality of debate on Mefi is improving...

By: mw

mw — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 01:27:59 -0800

Doug: Do you believe Way to not get things, Dave. Maybe you should try reading her book, and you may end up sounding less foolish is not condescending and rude?

By: tranquileye

tranquileye — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 05:24:33 -0800

davidmsc, the US government funded the development of the Internet, and the research community funded the creation of the World Wide Web as a technology. These technologies where then turned over to private interests at essentially no cost, like the nice folks at Network Solutions who control the domain name registry. I have no problem with people doing business and being in business, and that isn't what Klein is critiquing. Just one example: As you probably know, there is a summit coming up in Quebec City in April to discuss a free trade agreement for most of the countries in North and South America. This agreement will impact all the citizens of the hemisphere, and it might well be signed at the summit. Wouldn't you like to be able to see the draft agreement, and to know what issues are being discussed? Rumour has it that there is no side agreement creating an environmental watchdog commission, as there is in NAFTA. Shouldn't we be allowed to know this, and make our opinions known to the government, before they agree to the treaty?

By: kliuless

kliuless — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 06:47:55 -0800

i'm with doug again and tranquileye, solidaritat kameraden! i'm not so much worried about capitalism as its abuses. sure everyone needs to make a buck, but people and corporations need to be accountable for it at the same time. doing so at others' expense (US taxpayers included) isn't too cool, even if it is consistent :) i'd point out OPIC, campaign contributions and IMF fiscal austerity programs... and that's just the tip of the iceberg! i also like to think a better system can be designed, it just takes a little imagination.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 06:48:50 -0800

No. You don't have to know. Love conquers all.

By: mw

mw — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 07:39:00 -0800

kliuless: A better system than we have now can be and has been designed. It's called capitalism.

By: hijinx

hijinx — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:15:27 -0800

There's nothing wrong with having a business and doing things to make that business prosper, so long as those decisions are morally and ethically responsible, and the company will take responsibility for its actions. Many companies don't. They'll deny things, cover up things, and share nothing because a lot of the facts regarding things like sweatshops and exploitation of labor are bad PR! It'd be a PR nightmare. Since brand names and companies have become the next best thing to religion in America, these names and companies can't be mucked with. No Logo seems to look to shatter those notions that companies are perfect - and although you might not have that viewpoint, many people are just ignorant to these things. The more people know, the better. Postroad: No. You don't have to know. Love conquers all. Remember, you can buy Love down at Walgreens for $2.99/box. :)

By: holgate

holgate — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:33:12 -0800

it took Corporate America to invent the Web as we all know & love it. You know - the web that allows us to do things like MeFi, shop Amazon, read CNN, watch Shockwave, etc. Oh, and of course, the underlying stuff, too, like the software and backbone that we all use daily to embrace the Web. Let's see. My OS of choice is Linux. My browser of choice is Mozilla. I get my news from the BBC, a publically-funded corporation, and from the Guardian, which is backed by a non-profit trust. And the Net that I embrace is precisely that which evades the homogenisation and stagnation that comes when a corporate budget is attached to it. (Which is why I post to MeFi and not Plastic.com.) No Logo's main point, if you hadn't noticed from reading it, is that transnational corporations aren't poster children for the unregulated free market: they manipulate regional disparities of wealth and earnings, engineer cartels, exploit underfunded public institutions for private benefit, and in general behave like total shits. At least the planned economies of the eastern bloc claimed to serve the people.

By: johnny novak

johnny novak — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:11:39 -0800

I wonder what the marketing plan (and budget) for No Logo were, particularly the bit about viral marketing and setting up a website.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:54:37 -0800

For ye of littlef aith: someday you might own a multi-national corporation and then you will be more sympathetic to their needs.

By: Doug

Doug — Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:38:12 -0800

Yes, MW, I was being rude and condescending. I'm a prick, really. Tranguileye, however, was actually discussing the issue pretty politely.