this-sucks posted by yhbc at 8:57 PM on October 7, 2007
Out, out damn hyphen! posted by Poolio at 8:58 PM on October 7, 2007
Huh. I thought you had linked to an old article, because I'd definitely heard about this from somewhere before. Then I realized it was from languagehat. posted by CitrusFreak12 at 9:01 PM on October 7, 2007
A slippery-eel salesman, for example, sells slippery eels, while a slippery eel salesman takes your money and slinks away.
Hmmm ... I think I would have parsed that exactly the other way around. Seems that such nuances being added by the use of hyphens just get in the way these days, so ... good riddance to them! posted by woodblock100 at 9:02 PM on October 7, 2007
Ah, hell, now it's asking for a log-in (you'll note I've hyphenized "log-in").
Anybody out there got a trick for a direct link to this with need for logging in? posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:03 PM on October 7, 2007
Hey, good find, Citrus. But I wasn't stalking l-hat, I promise! posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:05 PM on October 7, 2007
A slippery-eel salesman, for example, sells slippery eels, while a slippery eel salesman takes your money and slinks away.
I don't think that makes any sense either "slippery-eel" in the first case would be one word. It could be an adjective like "slick" or a noun like "tire" posted by delmoi at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2007
flapjax: Why not just create an account? I realize it's annoying, but for the NYT it's worthwhile. The cookie it puts on your computer lasts for years, so you'll only need to re-log on if you clear your cookies or buy a new computer. And uh, they got rid of times select, so you get everything. posted by delmoi at 9:11 PM on October 7, 2007
Why did you hyphenate log-in? Is it because you have a hey-look-what-they-did-to-our-hyphens post here on metafilter? posted by sleepy pete at 9:22 PM on October 7, 2007
Well, The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary can suck it, because words-minus-other-words are cool. posted by quin at 9:26 PM on October 7, 2007
Naw, sleepy pete, it's just that I sorta like hyphens. posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:26 PM on October 7, 2007
You know who else undertook mass eliminations? posted by Poolio at 9:32 PM on October 7, 2007
I'm always happy to see less of these little bastards.
Since you are so wrong in your dislike for hyphens, and since this is already a pretty language-geeky thread, I’m going to be needlessly jerky and correct your grammar: it’s “fewer,” not “less.”
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go wash the prescriptivism off. posted by tepidmonkey at 9:49 PM on October 7, 2007 [3 favorites]
This is just dumb. Hyphens are great. The way in which a hyphen appears between two words and then disappears leaving a new, single word is such a cool little historical marker. posted by oddman at 10:10 PM on October 7, 2007
Woodblock and Delmoi, You're buggin'. Slippery-eel Is NOT one word. Else it would be in the dictionary as an Idiom. Slippery is the adjective for eel. Whereas "Slippery eel salesman" Is a whole different sentence all together(implying the salesman is slippery). This is the best argument to keep hyphens. (Besides having a Hyphen in my last name and birth certificate. BUT...I'm all for efficiency in language and economy of words so If it must be...
But this certainly won't stop its usage anyway. The hyphen is deactivated until the next Shakespeare sentences GENERATIONS of high-schoolers through the torture of trying to decipher all the shit he made up. posted by Student of Man at 10:21 PM on October 7, 2007
A slippery-eel salesman, for example, sells slippery eels, while a slippery eel salesman takes your money and slinks away.
What? That doesn't make sense; it seems totally backwards. The hypen makes "slippery" and "eel" into one compound adjective: "slippery-eel" (with the noun being "salesman"). It's perhaps not a very good word, but that's how it's being used. With a space between them, the adjective is simply "slippery" and the noun is "eel salesman."
I really don't trust that analysis. Unless there's some really bizarre special case going on here, that example flies in the face of years of experience.
Can anyone clarify? Everything I've pulled up so far on compound adjectives indicates that I'm right ... but it's a little hard to believe that the NYT could be so glaringly wrong. posted by Kadin2048 at 10:23 PM on October 7, 2007
So I guess it's even shorter now then. posted by gomichild at 10:47 PM on October 7, 2007
Poor Will, he's rolling in his grave, or perhaps not as his invented hyphenated words are now so common-place as to shun their hyphens with glee. posted by caddis at 10:54 PM on October 7, 2007
In my world view it's 'eel salesman' or 'slippery eel salesman'. Where are these non-slippery eels that the 'slippery-eel' fuckoff adjectivomanic prose-wads imply? posted by peacay at 11:08 PM on October 7, 2007
*Ring, RING* "Get the door, please, my dear!
I'm browsing this article here.
The OED (Shorter) has siphoned
Scads of words they once hyphen'd....
So who's there?" "It's Avon." "Shak-speare?!" posted by rob511 at 12:04 AM on October 8, 2007
Oh it's not that I said that in a half-assed-jokey-comment sort of way, I myself really like hyphens. I think they should be used in a blue-upon-red-and-white-maybe-yellow canvas daily, you know, because we can. It was an honest-to-god question I was asking. Or something.
Goddamn, I'm going to bed. I'm so over-the-top tired I can barely care about hyphens and why they are important to the language. Here, think about urine specific gravity as opposed to urine-specific gravity. Goodnight. Or, maybe, good-night? posted by sleepy pete at 12:27 AM on October 8, 2007
One-night stand != one night-stand.
tepidmonkey's example is a good one. Another:
"Spotted-seal boots" are boots made of spotted seal (a specific kind of seal).
"Spotted seal boots" are boots (made of seal) which happen to be spotted.
Hyphens have many legitimate functions. It sounds to me like the dictionary editors are just removing hyphens that don't need to be there in every context. (In the first sentence above, notice I don't hyphenate the noun "spotted seal" when not using it in a phrasal adjective. posted by D.C. at 12:28 AM on October 8, 2007
A "used-car salesman" sells used cars, while a "used car salesman" is just an empty husk of a man in a plaid sports coat. posted by taz at 12:45 AM on October 8, 2007 [4 favorites]
oi. Not that I'm a cry(-)baby. posted by patricio at 2:15 AM on October 8, 2007
But the most important, fundamental question remains : what's wrong with using or not using hyphens ? I dare advance that this is as relevant as paris hilton last sex operation, as it is not like the lack of a hyphen is going to crash some kind of spaceship, as messing with metrics and imperial measurement units did. posted by elpapacito at 2:20 AM on October 8, 2007
- - - - -
- - - - - - -
- - - - -. posted by Bletch at 2:31 AM on October 8, 2007
Thankfully, it seems that nowadays there are no rules about language, because who sets the rules? Nobody has been legally appointed to see that all people using a particular language use it the same way, and it would be an infringement of a person's right to do that anyway. As long as one can be understood and avoids ambiguity I think it should be up to oneself. I used to fret about whether certain compound nouns should be merged or hyphenated, from now on I'm not going to fret about that, or even about whether I consistently write them one way or another. I mean, in the old days, like when Shakespeare was writing, they certainly didn't worry about things like that, and they weren't even that consistent with their spelling were they? Also, I'm going to go back to using "aswell" instead of "as well" and "alright" instead or "all right" even though every spell checker I've encountered marks them are mistakes. Because I'm sure that's a common usage. posted by mokey at 2:38 AM on October 8, 2007
They can eliminate all the hyphens they like, but they'll pry my em dash from my cold, dead, keyboard. posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:48 AM on October 8, 2007
As long as one can be understood and avoids ambiguity I think it should be up to oneself.
Keeping in mind, of course, that even this statement is culturally relative. For example, here in Japan, avoiding ambiguity is not necessarily something one strives for in communication with others. Intentional vagueness and/or obfuscation, as opposed to clarity, is often the norm. posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:05 AM on October 8, 2007
Intentional vagueness
But surely only in an appropriate context? Not when giving directions or anything like that? posted by mokey at 3:41 AM on October 8, 2007
But surely only in an appropriate context?
There have been times (in my own experience and that of many others here that I know) when that all-too-typical vagueness has been used in contexts that I wouldn't have deemed at all "appropriate" at all, I can tell you that! But that's the "culturally relative" part... How I would define appropriate context is often rather different from how someone from this society and culture would define appropriate context.
Directions? No. But in lots of other situations where you or I might imagine a certain clarity or exactitude to be in order, such clarity or exactitude are often nowhere to be found. I imagine there are plenty of other folks from outside Japan, who've spent some time here, who'll tell you the same thing. Hell, I know Japanese folks who'll tell you the same thing! posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:04 AM on October 8, 2007
Heh heh. "at all appropriate at all". Department of Redundancy Department. posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:06 AM on October 8, 2007
"Hijinks". A funny word. Three dotted letters in a row.
[...] Of course, every generation hyphenates the way it wants to. Then there's "N'SYNC"…what the hell is that? Jump in anytime Eddie, these are good topics.
Humpty Dumpty: "'When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.'"
There's glory for you! posted by adamrice at 8:10 AM on October 8, 2007
Kadin2048, I would argue that "slippery-eel" is a compount noun, not a compound adjective.
It is a germanic language, after all. posted by lodurr at 8:11 AM on October 8, 2007
Plutor, my very first thought upon seeing the downfall of these hyphens was that T. Herman must be spinning in his grave, or in his iron-lung on the moon, or wherever he and his mechanical man-servant are now. posted by bepe at 9:39 AM on October 8, 2007
O, Plutor, I came in to say "Herman T. Zweibel wept." posted by klangklangston at 10:30 AM on October 8, 2007
Me, I just love the term I learned from languagelog for when someone (usually a computer program) puts the hyphen in the wrong place: mishy-phens! posted by straight at 10:58 AM on October 8, 2007
I love how people think E.E. Cummings did that to his name because he was some kind of "visionary".
He did it to get noticed. posted by wfc123 at 11:05 AM on October 8, 2007
Tepidmonkey
Seems to me there is a reading of Wolof's comment that is both grammatical and conveys the intended meaning. "I would be glad to see less of the Smiths" is perfectly grammatical, and could be facilitated by eliminating members of the Smith family. If it was "The Smiths", we could just kill Morrissey. Then everyone's a winner. posted by howfar at 12:04 PM on October 8, 2007
In related news, the reallocation of hyphen spectrum is expected to rejuvenate the long-stagnant Morse code and telegraph industries.
Secondary effects on Braille futures are still difficult to see. posted by spiderwire at 12:29 PM on October 8, 2007
Doubleplusgood! posted by furtive at 2:08 PM on October 8, 2007
Does this mean the Oxford English Dictionary is no longer a virgin? posted by Reggie Digest at 5:29 PM on October 8, 2007
« Older The Happy Endings Foundation aims to eradicate sad... | This article,... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by hackly_fracture at 8:55 PM on October 7, 2007 [1 favorite]