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10.8% say, "shove it."
October 13, 2007 5:30 PM   Subscribe

How depressing is your job? The Office of Applied Studies, a division of the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, released a report ranking various occupations in order of the number of depressive episodes experienced by workers. "Personal Care & Service" occupations (defined by the Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics here) top the list. One wonders if these are the occupations contributing to the growth of the so-called "service economy," and if so, are we heading for a deepening national malaise?
posted by univac (51 comments total) 10 users marked this as a favorite

 
I so expected lawyers to be higher up on that list. Apparently the rabid drug and alcohol abuse is really doing the trick.
posted by whoaali at 5:55 PM on October 13, 2007


The top 10% of Personal Care and Service Occupation employees make $17.50 an hour. The median wage is $9.17, for an annual salary of $19,070.

Christ. How fucking obvious is that? The people who work their asses off, can never afford to take a vacation, etc, are the most depressed. My guess is they might get a week of vacation, unpaid, plus holidays. And health care? Forget it.

Yeah, I'd be pretty depressed too.

Now, I'd love to see that list normalized against pay.
posted by delmoi at 6:20 PM on October 13, 2007


How depressing is my job? Let's see, this week one student asked if I was in the KKK, another told me I was ugly, and a third told me his purpose for being there was to "give teachers shit".

There really should be vodka in the water cooler.
posted by pips at 6:23 PM on October 13, 2007


delmoi writes "Christ. How fucking obvious is that? The people who work their asses off, can never afford to take a vacation, etc, are the most depressed. My guess is they might get a week of vacation, unpaid, plus holidays. And health care? Forget it. "

I did this type of work for years. I worked with people with developmental disabilities for six years for three companies. The first one paid 5.25 an hour (this was back in '96), two weeks of vacation annually. I worked with five adults with developmental disabilities in a regular neighborhood. I took them out on the town, and we made weekend trips to the coast.

The middle job was terrible: it paid modestly, but the company culture was stressed out, bureaucratic, and falling all over itself to be PC. I worked with two profoundly disabled adults who had to be monitored practically every second, 24/7/356. I didn't stay long.

The last job was the best: six weeks of vacation annually (!), starting pay was $2.00 per hour over minimum wage, and the company culture was very warm and friendly. It had benefits that rival what I'm getting at a Fortune 500 company now. It was a union job. I worked one-on-one with two high functioning individuals who had their own homes and vehicles.

All three were depressing for how absolutely dead-end they were. Then again, any situation which forces you to abandon all aspirations is going to get depressing eventually. I was working my way through college, but a lot of the people I worked with weren't, and didn't have anything more prestigious or interesting to look forward to. As a result, a lot of my associates drank heavily and abused drugs.
posted by mullingitover at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2007


I got a raise last month.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 6:35 PM on October 13, 2007


I had a seven year old girl beg me through tears not to close her father's casket because he is afraid of the dark. Doesn't get a lot more depressing than that.
posted by ColdChef at 6:50 PM on October 13, 2007 [12 favorites]


ColdChef ftw. :(
posted by monju_bosatsu at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2007


In terms of outliers, "Financial" is kind of interesting. Whereas, for most types of jobs, the 50-64 range is less depressed than the 35-49 range, Financial is just the opposite -- 50-64 jumps from 3.8 to 9.8.
posted by treepour at 6:54 PM on October 13, 2007


ColdChef, your job I could not do. I would just crack right the fuck up.
posted by nola at 6:57 PM on October 13, 2007


Agreed.
posted by miss lynnster at 7:08 PM on October 13, 2007


Last month we were told that we would have to take "draconian measures" (yes, the memo, written by management, actually described said management's own actions as draconian) to cut costs. All training was canceled, all tuition reimbursement was canceled, all raises & promotions were canceled, and a hiring freeze was put in place.

Two weeks prior, the executive team received their yearly bonuses, which were in the ballpark of 75% of their total yearly salaries.

Recently they took our on-call pay. We still have to be available 24 hours, but we don't get compensated for it. This is a 4% pay cut.

A mass exodus of the truly skilled employees has begun, so management is scrambling to fill the gaps in knowledge. What this boils down to is that I now do about 6 people's jobs, instead of the 3 I was doing before; this is the same for all of the competent people in the organization, so I can expect them to get sick of it pretty soon and leave as well, whereupon I will be given their responsibilities. And no extra money.

This wouldn't be so bad if I weren't being paid approximately 55% of the average salary that a UNIX admin makes.

How depressing is your job?

Like so many things in life, it can only be expressed in coffee mug form.
posted by synaesthetichaze at 7:12 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]


I like how social science is ranked a lot less depressing that social service.
posted by WolfDaddy at 7:15 PM on October 13, 2007 [2 favorites]


mullingitover: I initially thought "Personal Care & Service" meant taking care of disabled people, but it turns out it means any kind of service. For example, bellhops. The full list is
Gaming Supervisors ; Slot Key Persons ; First-Line Supervisors/Managers of Personal Service Workers ; Animal Trainers ; Nonfarm Animal Caretakers ; Gaming Dealers ; Gaming and Sports Book Writers and Runners ; Gaming Service Workers, All Other ; Motion Picture Projectionists ; Ushers, Lobby Attendants, and Ticket Takers ; Amusement and Recreation Attendants ; Costume Attendants ; Locker Room, Coatroom, and Dressing Room Attendants ; Embalmers ; Funeral Attendants ; Barbers ; Hairdressers, Hairstylists, and Cosmetologists ; Makeup Artists, Theatrical and Performance ; Manicurists and Pedicurists ; Shampooers ; Skin Care Specialists ; Baggage Porters and Bellhops ; Concierges ; Tour Guides and Escorts ; Travel Guides ; Flight Attendants ; Transportation Attendants, Except Flight Attendants and Baggage Porters ; Child Care Workers ; Personal and Home Care Aides ; Fitness Trainers and Aerobics Instructors ; Recreation Workers ; Residential Advisors ; Personal Care and Service Workers, All Other
posted by delmoi at 7:24 PM on October 13, 2007


Since I've been in nursing school I have worked in an outpatient oncology center (I stopped going to the funerals after the first year or so), a Level I pediatric trauma center (shaken babies and four year olds with STDs), and now I'm in a neuro trauma ICU (mostly blunt head trauma and gunshot wounds).

The pay pretty much sucks, but I still find the idea of sitting in a cube farm for 8 hours a day much more depressing.
posted by makonan at 7:38 PM on October 13, 2007


This survey also reflects workers' willingness to admit they are depressed, which, in American culture, still selects for women and against men. "Personal care and services" are a pink-collar ghetto.

The least depressed workers' careers, though higher-paid, are also more stereotypically male. Sounds as if the average engineer would prefer to work on a Rube Goldbergian suicide machine than to admit to depression or any of the symptoms whereof.
posted by bad grammar at 7:39 PM on October 13, 2007 [1 favorite]


How fucking obvious is that? The people who work their asses off, can never afford to take a vacation, etc, are the most depressed.

Tell that to all those investment bankers. You know, 60 soul sucking hours a week look a lot better at $500k on up. They still suck your soul though.

I went to a very difficult funeral/viewing last week and couldn't help but think of coldchef. The deceased was divorced and living with a secretary from work. His kids and the rest of the family hated her, and I have a difficult time understanding why as she is sweetness time ten, but I guess nevertheless an interloper. As the work crowd, in the tens if not hundreds showed up (five to ten times the volume of the family crowd, the man was loved at work), the family freaked and the girl friend just poured tears as much for the difficult situation with the family as for her loss. The family actually tried to keep the work crowd out of the funeral home at first. The funeral director did not handle it well and I kept thinking that it probably would have been a lot better with someone with a better sense of calm like coldchef. In any event, this is hardly uncommon at funerals which only makes the funeral director job more difficult.
posted by caddis at 7:40 PM on October 13, 2007


By the way, here is a career that the MeFite gamer kids can get behind.
posted by caddis at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2007


If you don't look at the gender distribution, you won't realize that the results have a lot to do with that. Women have much higher rates for major depressive episodes than men. The top four vocational categories for MDEs in this list are majority-female categories.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:49 PM on October 13, 2007


Sounds as if the average engineer would prefer to work on a Rube Goldbergian suicide machine than to admit to depression or any of the symptoms whereof.

Hey man, that was for a story! You know, a fictional one. *deletes rube-goldberg-suicide.doc*
posted by synaesthetichaze at 7:49 PM on October 13, 2007


What EB said. There aren't even enough men in "Personal Care and Service" to get a statistically useful sample. Women in the various categories are between two and three times more likely to have an MDE. The effect seems much more salient than occupational group (though that observation about the Financial group is interesting)
posted by blacklite at 8:17 PM on October 13, 2007


It'd be interesting to compare these against statistics for suicides. I suspect that there are a lot of jobs that either by their nature don't allow people to admit they're depressed, or attract people who tend not to admit depression; at least until they off themselves, that is.

I've heard that professional emergency medical workers (Paramedics, EMTs, Flight Respiratory Therapists, etc., but curiously not Firefighters) had high suicide rates, and they tend to be very male-dominated occupations. I also suspect that they probably wouldn't show up in a survey looking at self-reported workplace 'depression.'

There are a lot more unhappy people than those who admit they're "depressed."
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:22 PM on October 13, 2007


((((ColdChef))))

Empathy--->overworked and underappreciated--->empathy burnout--->depression.
posted by nickyskye at 8:32 PM on October 13, 2007


I've been at times a teacher and a lawyer.

Most depressing moment as a teacher: I remember leaning against the dirty side of the administration building overcome with tears, crying over my student who was possibly pregnant by her father. You'd think the Santa Clara County DA would have vigorously prosecuted that case, but you'd think wrong.

Most depressing moments as a lawyer: All the other stupid that damn DA put my clients through. Like prosecuting my battered wife client over a false accusation while charging the husband with simple assault after he raped her, put her in the hospital and tried to kill her.

I have a blook that talks all about it, although, unlike this post, I tried to make it funny and light when possible.
href="http://www.printpusher.com/ex-lawyer/">
posted by cameron.case at 8:39 PM on October 13, 2007


I had a seven year old girl beg me through tears not to close her father's casket because he is afraid of the dark. Doesn't get a lot more depressing than that.

That's striking stuff right there, and I want to bookmark it so I can go back to it later, but I have this vague feeling that clicking "Favorite" is borderline obscene.
posted by Weebot at 8:44 PM on October 13, 2007


Ugh, I wish I could delete my previous comment.

Some people have real depressing jobs. I just have the same kind of dehumanizing cube-work everyone else does. ColdChef & cameron.case, luckily there are people like you around who can actually do those kinds of things without losing it.
posted by synaesthetichaze at 8:46 PM on October 13, 2007


If you look at the breakdown to see where women are least depressed, the answers are scientific and legal fields. And yet anecdotally these are the very fields I have most often heard women working therein condemn as sexist, inflexible, glass-ceilinged nightmares. By anecdotal, I mean stories about vomiting every day in the ladies' room from the stress. I suspect underreporting there as well as with the male engineers.
posted by egret at 8:58 PM on October 13, 2007


i worked at a nursing home all through college, caring for alzheimer's patients and semi-comatose teenagers, making minimum wage, holding the hands of the dying and forgotten, and dealing with the grotesqueries of old age. but as far as depressing goes, working as a teacher took the cake. i never spent time sobbing in the bathroom at the nursing home (gagging yes, but crying no) like i did when confronted with what we've been doing to the children.

being a substitute teacher and grading SAT essays isn't much better. but at least it's part time, and i can refuse to answer the phone and go walk in the woods when it all gets to be too much.
posted by RedEmma at 10:16 PM on October 13, 2007


I recently changed jobs from a housing program for homeless families to assertive community treatment with a program structured to serve the most severely mentally ill population in the city, most of whom are also active drug addicts and habitual criminals. So in addition to spending 30 hours a week in the shittiest neighborhoods in Philly, I now get to go to locked psych wards and prisons where I get to work with dudes who basically want to stab me in the neck. All of our 40 clients are psychotic, and the agency is about to up the program's load to 60. Also, I have the good fortune to be the largest male in the whole division, which means I get to handle every dude who might make a lunge.

So anyway, what's this about social services being #3? I don't really see it.
posted by The Straightener at 10:27 PM on October 13, 2007


So if you want to be happy, be an engineer? Wha?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:22 PM on October 13, 2007


So if you want to be happy, be an engineer? Wha?

Engineers often do work that they find fascinating. They get paid well because they're interested in something that bores the crap out of most other people. What's not to love?
posted by Afroblanco at 12:13 AM on October 14, 2007


With regards to engineering, take a look at the gender breakdown. For males, it's one of the least depressing jobs, but for the females, it ranks top five. I'm not proud about what that says about my profession and me / my colleagues.
posted by YAMWAK at 12:53 AM on October 14, 2007


I had a seven year old girl beg me through tears not to close her father's casket because he is afraid of the dark. Doesn't get a lot more depressing than that.

As a male pseudo-engineer all I could think was "sunroof".
posted by srboisvert at 5:16 AM on October 14, 2007 [1 favorite]


Thank you, ColdChef, cameron.case & pips.

I love my job (self-employed massage therapist), and I love my clients. Almost every day, I feel fortunate and privileged to be able to do what I do. Every now and then, while on my table, someone will share some of their life experiences with me. I have heard some remarkable stories, heartwarming & heartbreaking. Thankfully, just about all of my sessions end on an uplifting note, with the person telling me how much better they feel. I've done some temporary work at a residential unit for teens with substance abuse issues, and some of their stories were incredibly depressing. I think I'd find it very hard to deal with some of them without the feeling that I'm providing the person on my table with something positive.
In the late 80s, I was doing bookkeeping for an accountant. One day, one of our long term clients shot himself in the head. When I found out, I had a realisation that no financial problems are ever worth that, and I no longer wanted to be involved with telling people how much money they did or didn't have.
posted by goshling at 5:26 AM on October 14, 2007


Last month we were told that we would have to take "draconian measures" (yes, the memo, written by management, actually described said management's own actions as draconian) to cut costs. All training was canceled, all tuition reimbursement was canceled, all raises & promotions were canceled, and a hiring freeze was put in place.

Two weeks prior, the executive team received their yearly bonuses, which were in the ballpark of 75% of their total yearly salaries.

Recently they took our on-call pay. We still have to be available 24 hours, but we don't get compensated for it. This is a 4% pay cut.

Sounds like most of the places I've ever worked. It's all good, as long as the bottom-line is pumped-up for the investors (and the execs get their cut, of course)

Last place I was at, I was in the Marketing department. Our call-center people were also part of the Marketing department, since they also did lead-development and follow-ups.

The one quarter the top-floor actually allowed bonuses to be handed-out to Marketing, they suddenly decided that the call-center people were no longer in Marketing. They had already started handing-out the checks. The manager had to actually takes them back from the workers who had already received theirs. It was all she could do to hold back the tears. She quit soon after.

They also stiffed our web-master because he had started with us a week into the new year. Had the started on the first of the year, he'd have gotten a bonus. He had only completely re-built the corporate website. I handed them back my check. Told my manager I didn't want any part of this bullshit. Asshats.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:19 AM on October 14, 2007


I have to second teaching. The only mental strategy that I saw working was to stop thinking of students as people. If you think of them as human (and possess empathy) for even a month it destroys you.

Working for the Pediatric ICU/palliative care team is a nightmare. Basically, you're doing pain management/dignity and helping the family for kids with 1) soon-to-be-fatal trauma or 2) long term diseases which end here. You get to be there as parents find out that they're outliving their children. Or time to be realistic about that problem they've had since birth, but there were all these treatments that might have worked. The only more depressing person in the hospital is probably the chaplain (it's tempting to start a pool with the nurses on when he kills himself). The social workers don't have it easy either.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:50 AM on October 14, 2007


So most jobs have the peak age for depression between 18 and 25. That's not surprising — both because young people are more likely to report depression, and because entry level jobs are more likely to be depressing. But I'm curious about the ones that have peaks at different ages.

I'm especially curious about that huge peak for social and community service workers in their late 20s and early 30s. I'm tempted to think it corresponds to the point when the youthful idealism finally wears off for good.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:07 AM on October 14, 2007


One of those is absolutely consistent with what I see in Hollywood. One of the single highest, with 13.5 percent depression, is women in entertainment.

With careers that peak in mid-20s (I'd love to see the breakdowns on 30 year old actresses), women entertainers, whether actresses or singers or what have you, are often depressed for career reasons. The public is always looking for the new, young pretty face, and, once you're older, it's over.
posted by MythMaker at 8:44 AM on October 14, 2007


As I get older, I hear more and more stories of people at or above my age (50 and up...especially men) experiencing serious depression while having to deal with upheavals in the workplace. Unless you've made it to executive levels, being an older person in the office workplace can quickly become a paranoia-inducing exercise in waiting for the axe to fall so they can move someone younger and cheaper into your spot, experience and ability notwithstanding.

And once you are booted, finding commensurate employment can become equally frustrating/depressing at that age. Employers see an older guy, with a family, with healthcare needs, and see younger people as a more cost-effective choice. We, personally, know of one guy, trying to deal with just these issues, who took his own life over the pressure and depression.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:46 AM on October 14, 2007


I'm especially curious about that huge peak for social and community service workers in their late 20s and early 30s. I'm tempted to think it corresponds to the point when the youthful idealism finally wears off for good.

No, that's not it. It's the emotional impact of being intensely connected to people who have problems that extend beyond your capacity to help, and who will likely fail in life despite your intervention. Like education in poverty settings, social services is a long odds game. For every success story you have 20 who will be mired in the same shit until they eventually die. Sometimes the successes can be so infrequent that you lose sight of the fact that you do in fact sometimes succeed. Sometimes it feels like you are lost in their world with them and you feel the hopelessness of their existence as strongly as they do.

There are ways to try to limit the extent to which this happens, boundary reinforcing techniques and whatnot, and a good agency will have policies in place to address burnout. But every helping professional gets sucked into someone too much at some point and when your clients makes bad choices that create havoc and suffering for themselves and their families it can be hard not to have that touch you. Now imagine having that happen while at the same time you are witnessing a steady diet of violence, self-abuse and macro-level institutional failure.

It's not a loss of idealism, it's a contuining struggle not to be ground into suicidal despair by a set of forces a substantial portion of our society will never escape. Social workers just happen to be a lot closer to it than other people, who choose not to think about it and never really come in contact with it.
posted by The Straightener at 9:19 AM on October 14, 2007


Given my level of depression, I am obviously in the wrong field. I need to get into a more depressing field immediately so that I can be among my own kind.
posted by Eideteker at 9:21 AM on October 14, 2007


Given my level of depression, I am obviously in the wrong field. I need to get into a more depressing field immediately so that I can be among my own kind.

Man, no kidding. I'm a teacher, sitting here working on lesson/unit plans. I can't wait for school to start tomorrow. Greatest job ever.

(No, I don't work at Exeter or Boy's Latin, or other rich-kid nurseries. Just a poor exurb school consistently in the lower third of test scores, dropout rates, etc.)

Having said that, I truly feel sorry for people who lack the resources, time, support, and, above all, money to be able to change positions. You spend more time at work than with your family or friends, so you GOTTA love what you do.
posted by John of Michigan at 10:08 AM on October 14, 2007


I have a couple jobs. One is a nearly $80k/yr job as a systems administrator.

The other one pays around $10/hr, in EMS.

Guess which one I am happier with? Hint: It's not the one with the dollar signs. I am absolutely miserable at my IT job, and no amount of money helps. What's the point of 2 weeks of vacation when you can never take any because you're considered 'critical infrastructure' and are basically on call 24/7?

I could be yet another SFGate article about someone tjat got out of the Silicon Valley rat race and found happiness in a job that doesn't pay as much. Except that I wasn't a corporate executive with a $2,000,000 paycheck to begin with.
posted by drstein at 10:22 AM on October 14, 2007


Except that I wasn't a corporate executive with a $2,000,000 paycheck to begin with.
And that's sort of the key to all those "shucking the rat race and living a simpler life" stories, isn't it? That's why, way back in the day, I stopped reading crap like Utne Reader. I realized that in every story they ran about some couple who gave-up everything to become organic, artisan cheese makers, they had a huge bankroll already saved, thanks them both being investment bankers in NY or something.

It's sure easy to simplify and reduce the stress when you have a warehouse full of cash somewhere.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:40 AM on October 14, 2007


Correlation/causation:

Yes, the fields with the highest levels of depressive episodes are female-dominated.

Is this because women are more prone to depression? Or are women more prone to depression because they are stuck in these very demanding jobs which are undercompensated and underappreciated, as delmoi suggests? Or are both effects coming from some other causes?
posted by mai at 12:24 PM on October 14, 2007 [1 favorite]


There is no shortage of depressed librarians, many of whom I see every day and think "If s/he had gone into teaching, s/he'd be dead by now."
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:58 PM on October 14, 2007


Again, I'm mostly looking at my own field, which is entertainment, and I notice something fascinating.

18-25 year olds are still optimistic that they'll "make it," and so are satisfied.

26-34 are far more depressed, because a lot of them realize at this age that they'll never "make it.

But after 35 it bumps back up again. Why? My hypothesis is that they've dropped out. The depressed ones stopped trying to be in show business and entered the depressing world of office jobs, and so the ones who are left have less depression.

If you're still in the entertainment industry when you're 40, either you're working or delusional. There are lots of 26 year olds who are still auditioning every day but not getting anywhere.

Just my Hollywood observation.
posted by MythMaker at 7:34 PM on October 14, 2007


If you're still in the entertainment industry when you're 40, either you're working or delusional. There are lots of 26 year olds who are still auditioning every day but not getting anywhere.

Even off/behind the camera? I would think there must be plenty of editors/cinematographers/etc. over 40?
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:47 PM on October 14, 2007


“Is this because women are more prone to depression? Or are women more prone to depression because they are stuck in these very demanding jobs which are undercompensated and underappreciated, as delmoi suggests? Or are both effects coming from some other causes?”

That'd be a good point if it weren't for the fact that the fact “women are far more prone to MDEs than men” is something that's been well-known for a long time and has a very wide scope, while the scope of this study is very limited.

I don't doubt that poor employment opportunities for women contribute to female MDEs. I suspect that this particular manifestation of cultural sexism is just one among many sociological factors involving sexism which collectively greatly contribute to female MDEs. However, women have higher rates of MDEs than men across occupations, as you can see from this study.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:47 PM on October 14, 2007


The card cheat - sure there are, and they're working. The ones who weren't good enough have quit by that point and moved on to other things. That's why I said that 40+ are either working or delusional.

You still see some 50+ actors with no talent trying to make it with no success, but they're delusional.

But there are lots and lots of people in their 20s who are trying to break into the business. Many of them won't survive. But when they're younger, they're still excited, so not depressed yet.

After a decade of hitting their head against the wall with no success, they're depressed.

A few years later, they're doing something else.

That's just my hypothesis for why the numbers are as they are.
posted by MythMaker at 8:52 PM on October 14, 2007


MythMaker writes "You still see some 50+ actors with no talent trying to make it with no success, but they're delusional."

You know, it is possible to work in the arts without having the goal of playing the industry game.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:05 PM on October 14, 2007


Guess which one I am happier with? Hint: It's not the one with the dollar signs. I am absolutely miserable at my IT job, and no amount of money helps. What's the point of 2 weeks of vacation when you can never take any because you're considered 'critical infrastructure' and are basically on call 24/7?

Oh man, I know that feeling. I had two weeks booked for my summer holiday. I agree to do it late in the summer, so I could be there to supervise the contractors earlier. Approved, flights booked, the works. Three days before I fly, I'm told that I'm not allowed to go, they need me on site 'in case something goes wrong that week'. I managed to squeeze in two days worth. I lost the money on the flights. The year before, I had it cancelled outright due to another crisis.

I don't hate my job, I've definitely had worse - the soul destroying boredom in collecting stolen shopping trolleys from a housing estate in the rain at night, every night, every week and weekends. I can easily see being a social worker or a chaplain in a deprived area being way worse.

That's the toughest thing, really. You have a desk job, in the warm, using your skills (including the skill of NOT throttling the idiot that never ever listens). You only need to do 11-12 hours a day to keep up. People are only verbally knifing you in the back. Compared to what so many put up with, it's a cake walk. You should be grateful.

You make bearable money. But you think to yourself, when you get that phonecall at 6am at home on a saturday morning that there's a user-caused crisis with the email which needs to be fixed right away unpaid, you do get that twinge that you'd rather be doing something else.
posted by ArkhanJG at 4:40 PM on October 15, 2007


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