Dynamic, articulate, so high he can eat a star
October 19, 2007 1:06 PM   Subscribe

2007 is the year of Weezy. In just 10 months, Lil Wayne has recorded more tracks than many artists will in a lifetime; beat Radiohead to the punch by giving away not only the best rap album of the year, but some runners up as well; found a spot on MTV's "Hottest Rappers" list and become the darling of street-heads, hipster fanboys and even highbrow cultural pundits across the nation.

Styles run the gamut: vitriolic political rants, drug music, club anthems, epic personal deconstructions, word associations, eulogies to lost friends and of course a healthy dose of self-aggrandizing chest pounding all find a place in Weezy's repertoire.

Today marks the release of a fourth installment in his "Drought" mixtape series, and the hype is only growing. He's young, rich, talented, tattooed and doing it all without the RIAA. Prolific. Intoxicated. Annoyingly whiney? Face like a flying monkey? Gay? Say what you want, just don't forget to say the Baby.
posted by dead_ (85 comments total) 18 users marked this as a favorite

 
Your favorite no-talent ugly rapper sucks.

Honestly, for the life of me, I cannot see why he gets half the praise he does. I wish there was an electoral college in hip hop, if only to stop hucksters like this from pulling a pied piper on the rap community.

Every track I've heard him on, he's trash. He is the Hootie & the Blowfish of the moment. I can't wait until he falls off.
posted by cashman at 1:22 PM on October 19, 2007 [4 favorites]


The real Weezie
posted by rob511 at 1:23 PM on October 19, 2007


Best WHAT of the year?

Surely you jest.
posted by Critical_Beatdown at 1:32 PM on October 19, 2007


Your favorite no-talent ugly rapper sucks.

And your favorite no-talent ugly rapper thinks Wayne is pretty great.

"I think Lil Wayne is extremely talented. I think he’s one of the most talented ones out there."
--Jay-z

By the way, Hootie & the Blowfish of the moment? Did they even have a moment? I'm confused here.
posted by trueluk at 1:34 PM on October 19, 2007


Nobody in the rest of the world has heard of this idiot.

BUHLEETED
posted by fire&wings at 1:41 PM on October 19, 2007 [1 favorite]


man, eyelid tattoos?
that's gangsta.

what is the deal with birdman and wayne, his "son"?
isn't bird's tattoo of wayne on his chest just a bit over the top?

and wayne can rap, but why on earth would anyone want that nasal, annoying voice to sing a hook?

Also interesting that he hasn't dropped the "lil" from his monniker yet, unlike some former "lil" artists. Seems that his image is still that of the up-and-coming protege rather than the one calling the shots.
posted by whahappen?! at 1:43 PM on October 19, 2007


I think he was comparing Lil Wayne's prolific output to that of Hootie & the Blowfish's at the height of their popularity- meaning an inescapable fuckton.
posted by Dr-Baa at 1:43 PM on October 19, 2007


I'm not a huge fan, but it's nice to see a music post that suggests the poster has turned on the radio in the last fifteen years. (not to hate on the old stuff)
posted by Bookhouse at 1:45 PM on October 19, 2007


Also interesting that he hasn't dropped the "lil" from his monniker yet, unlike some former "lil" artists.

There was a mix tape cut of Wayne's from a while back that talked about how "Lil" Wayne was dead, and to start addressing him as "Grown Ass" Wayne.

I wonder what happened to that whole thing...
posted by SweetJesus at 1:48 PM on October 19, 2007


Looking at that Wikipedia page about Lil' Wayne's various "beefs," it occurred to me that Metafilter would benefit from a page detailing its members' beefs with each other.
posted by jayder at 2:02 PM on October 19, 2007 [5 favorites]


I'd rather put moist dog turds in my ears than subject them to this toxic waste.
posted by 2sheets at 2:02 PM on October 19, 2007 [1 favorite]


By the way, Hootie & the Blowfish of the moment? Did they even have a moment? I'm confused here.

Their first album sold 16 million copies in 1994. That's more than The Joshua Tree has sold to date in the U.S.
posted by The World Famous at 2:03 PM on October 19, 2007 [3 favorites]


Honestly, for the life of me, I cannot see why he gets half the praise he does. I wish there was an electoral college in hip hop, if only to stop hucksters like this from pulling a pied piper on the rap community.

What did you expect?

It's rap/hip-hop. It's not an art form. It's just mass-marketed laziness.
posted by wfc123 at 2:07 PM on October 19, 2007


People just cannot wait to shit in a rap thread, huh?
posted by tantrumthecat at 2:10 PM on October 19, 2007 [4 favorites]


Good post. I had never listened to any Lil Wayne before and I kind of like his style. I wish he'd released these mixtapes in a better quality than 128 kbps mp3, though.
posted by sveskemus at 2:11 PM on October 19, 2007


I do think it's an art form. A really glorious one. But Weezy is more of a stick-figure painter to me, as opposed to the masters out there. Rakim, MF Doom, P.E., et cetera.
posted by cashman at 2:11 PM on October 19, 2007


It's rap/hip-hop. It's not an art form. It's just mass-marketed laziness.
posted by wfc123 at 5:07 PM on October 19 [+] [!]


I fucking dare you to spit rhymes. Go on. Do it. If it's just laziness, anybody could do it, right?

And man, that Jackson Pollock! Anybody could just throw some paint on a canvas. Let's not even talk about Martha Graham--it's not hard to fling your body around.

DIAF.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 2:29 PM on October 19, 2007 [11 favorites]


Suck it, haters; Pinkerton is a great album.
posted by cortex at 2:32 PM on October 19, 2007 [6 favorites]


The comparison with Jackson Pollock is appropriate. The Martha Graham one, not so much.

I fucking dare you to spit rhymes.

Do they have to be good, or can they just be on par with the current standard of rap stars?
posted by The World Famous at 2:32 PM on October 19, 2007


If they're on par or anywhere close, post 'em to Music. We could use more of that.
posted by cortex at 2:43 PM on October 19, 2007 [1 favorite]


The world Famous you do realize you are being willfully ignorant, right? If you don't understand it, fine But you can understand it. No need to shit on the thread, you may excuse yourself from the conversation. The breadth of interests and variety of subjects covered on the blue suggests there is a place to appreciated even rap.
posted by Student of Man at 2:44 PM on October 19, 2007


weezy bad
nah, really i'm good
sound like a t-rex live under my hood
posted by jcruelty at 2:44 PM on October 19, 2007


Their first album sold 16 million copies in 1994.

16 million fratboys can't be wrong, huh?
posted by BobFrapples at 2:53 PM on October 19, 2007


bang bang
posted by four panels at 2:54 PM on October 19, 2007


The "Feuds" segment of that Wiki page is goddamn hilarious.

I guess if you're a big hip hop fan, that's a great added bonus... 2 for 1 entertainment. Not only do you get music you enjoy, you get hysterical, juvenile melodrama worthy of a daytime soap.

B.G. reserved his disses for Wayne, merely saying "Got a big ol' dick peekin' at your bitch..." Wayne would break up with Trina soon after B.G.'s diss was recorded.

Oh God... please tell me they get back together in the final episode!!!
posted by BobFrapples at 3:04 PM on October 19, 2007


"But Weezy is more of a stick-figure painter to me, as opposed to the masters out there."

To quote Wayne, "If we too simple then y'all don't get the basics."
posted by skullbee at 3:32 PM on October 19, 2007 [3 favorites]


It's rap/hip-hop. It's not an art form. It's just mass-marketed laziness.

No, the laziness lies with you--as a listener you have obviously failed to make even a token effort to understand this style of music.* One must understand something before one is allowed to dismiss it.

(*-if in fact you have taken some time and listened with an open mind to the very best that hip hop has to offer, and still have that opinion, then your judgment is just terrible. So which is it, ignorance or bad judgment?)

Their first album sold 16 million copies in 1994. That's more than The Joshua Tree has sold to date in the U.S.

So what? That makes Hootie & the Blowfish's first album better or more interesting than The Joshua Tree? All your statistic means is that--for one album--Hootie was more popular. Big deal. Lots of shitty, unoriginal, vapid music sells millions and millions of albums.

It would more informative, if one considers sales alone, to compare how many total albums U2 has sold in their career to Hootie & the Blowfish's total sales. That number would be more revealing as to popularity, but would provide exactly zero information as to quality of music.
posted by LooseFilter at 3:39 PM on October 19, 2007 [2 favorites]


"But Weezy is more of a stick-figure painter to me, as opposed to the masters out there."

To quote Wayne, "If we too simple then y'all don't get the basics."


Or to quote John Adams (the composer, not the president): "The simplest gesture is the hardest to defend."
posted by LooseFilter at 3:41 PM on October 19, 2007


So what? That makes Hootie & the Blowfish's first album better or more interesting than The Joshua Tree? All your statistic means is that--for one album--Hootie was more popular. Big deal. Lots of shitty, unoriginal, vapid music sells millions and millions of albums.

I guess you didn't notice that the statistic was posted in response to the following question:

"Hootie & the Blowfish of the moment? Did they even have a moment? I'm confused here."

The answer is that yes, they most certainly had a moment, as crappy a band as they were. A bigger moment than even U2's most popular album has ever had.
posted by The World Famous at 3:46 PM on October 19, 2007


I guess you didn't notice that the statistic was posted in response to the following question:

I see...I read the original comment as rhetorical--"Did they even have a moment?" to emphasize just how short and forgettable (though lucrative) a moment they had.
posted by LooseFilter at 3:49 PM on October 19, 2007


People outside of the USA definitely know (and love) Lil Wayne. However, I'm pretty sure they've never heard of Hootie and the Blowfish.

Maybe in Canada they do?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:00 PM on October 19, 2007


I mean, clearly this thread is turning in a pretty anti-Weezy direction, so I can't help but dropping in my two cents' worth.

I have to be in the top 0.05% of math rock fanboys that exist, and I still can't resist liking Lil Wayne. The dude's ugly, okay. His voice is kinda nasal, true. Still, I don't know if it's related to the astronomical loads of weed the dude smokes or what, but he's one of the most imaginative lyricists I've ever heard. Not that he's a great poet or anything, but I just haven't heard anyone else out there who does quite what Weezy does and makes it sound so easy. Without being saddled with a nerdcore or backpacker reputation, the dude will juggle a metaphors back and forth and slip references to, shit, everything into his verses. For the doubters, here are a couple of examples:
Flow, touchin' the pedal in that F5 yellow
Cause I'm movin' through the city like blood in a vessel
I'm a, fuckin' professional, so intellectual
It's Mr. Fat Stacks, my pockets got high cholesterol
Ah! I need vegetables! Is weed vegetables?
Which may not even look like it rhymes that well, but when you hear it in his lazy drawl, it sounds perfect. And surprisingly effortless, considering that he compared his verbal flow to driving through a city, which he then compared to the human circulatory system, from which he digressed for a beat to talk about money, using a description that he then linked back to the subject of human bodily health, followed by a reference to a recommended treatment for the aforementioned ailment, followed by a humorous related question that reinforces the fact that he enjoys marijuana. In the space of about ten seconds. One other one, just for variety:
Gotta talk about the flow, 'cause you is concerned
Only down south rapper could've been in the firm
Or the commissioner of Wu-Tang n****
Tryin'a tell you I can kick it like Liu Kang n****
Got the Sub Zero flow, how you like me ma
N**** get over here like Scorpion
Who else is going to make the jump from the name of a rap group through its martial arts connotations directly into references to three different characters from Mortal Kombat, while still being considered a serious, major media rap star? (In the same song where he later boasts "I hit n****s in the head like Vonage")

Anyway, you're free not to like him, but to claim that what he does takes no talent is uninformed and asinine. Fortunately, I will defend to the death your right to be uninformed and asinine.
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 4:06 PM on October 19, 2007 [10 favorites]


He rhymed "n****" with "n****". The man definitely has talent.
posted by destro at 4:24 PM on October 19, 2007


B.G. reserved his disses for Wayne, merely saying "Got a big ol' dick peekin' at your bitch..."

As I scanned the Wikipedia article, I misread this as "big ol' dick peckin' at your bitch ..."

I see that it was, indeed, "peekin'."

Peckin' actually makes more sense, though.
posted by jayder at 4:25 PM on October 19, 2007


its the wu-tang and liu kang part that rhymes, destro.
posted by AceRock at 4:27 PM on October 19, 2007


Thanks cobra, I was about to write something along the same lines but you just saved me the trouble.

One thing that has yet to be mentioned is how surprising Lil Wayne's rise has been. I mean, just a few years ago this guy was one of the Hot Boys. The Hot Boys! They were fucking terrible! I would have never expected that I would ever enjoy listening to his music or consider myself a fan.

On preview: destro, one of the greatest emcee's of all time once rhymed shit with shit with shit with shit.
posted by joedan at 4:30 PM on October 19, 2007


He's talented as hell and will be recognized as the best MC around in the coming months (although lots of folks would already grant that as obvious).

Those of you who don't like him are just too busy gorging yourselves on wet, over-flowing cock-buckets right now to notice.

Discuss.
posted by bardic at 4:37 PM on October 19, 2007 [2 favorites]


Did I miss the hiphopoutragefilter tag?

I'm in the same boat as cobra_high. Wayne lyrics are sharp and his flow is smooth. I usually avoid most hip-hop, but I remember the first time I heard "Georgia ... Bush," that first clause in the chorus kinda chilled me: "We're from a town where everybody drowned..."

But the dude is one-of-a-kind. He's one of the only MCs that I can think of, especially in mainstream hiphop, who can sound downright carefree. And he's funny.

Just go download Da Drought 3-- it's free, and it's awesome. And I doubt you'll hear a better hip hop album this year.
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 4:48 PM on October 19, 2007


Okay, here's my opinion, not that you asked. I've listened to a lot of rap. Hell, I live in Atlanta. I couldn't get away from rap if I tried and believe me, I've tried. And you know what, just like the rock that gets played in Boston and the country that gets played in Dallas, 99% of it sucks. There's definitely a different aesthetic to rap that takes a slightly different mindset to appreciate, in the same way that jazz or musette do.

Additionally, a lot of what gets popular is the stuff that's approachable. Usually, it's musically simple (or complex but comprised of familiar themes), and doesn't have a lot of challenging ideas. That sort of thing also tends to appeal to youth, which is by far the major market for rap. That also means that those with more distinguished tastes don't get exposed to the more subtle forms of a particular genre. Again, I'm talking in generalities here.

So you've got a bunch of people to whom rap sounds unfamiliar (and that which doesn't sound unfamiliar is generally not very high-quality), along with all the baggaged of being a low-class art form (and yes, kids, rap qualifies as art), and that results in wholesale dismissal of the genre in its entirety.

With that said, I made an honest attempt to familiarise myself with rap, listening to a lot of what appealed to me the most (Mos Def, Yo La Tengo, etc) and trying to span a lot of rap's history. I encountered Lil' Wayne's track Shooter via Aurgasm, and it's quite good! I recommend that you who are ignorant of rap's breadth and depth make an honest attempt to inform themselves. You might be surprised.

You might also find, like I did, that rap generally sucks.
posted by TheNewWazoo at 5:05 PM on October 19, 2007


I'm the best rapper of all time.
posted by weezy at 5:10 PM on October 19, 2007 [4 favorites]


I made an honest attempt to familiarise myself with rap, listening to a lot of what appealed to me the most (Mos Def, Yo La Tengo

Either you meant De La Soul, or some Pitchfork writer is about to spooge over all of us in an overwrought torrent of superlatives once word breaks.
posted by poweredbybeard at 5:14 PM on October 19, 2007 [1 favorite]


These days, trotting out the ol' "Rap isn't music" rant is actually sort of quaint and charming. I bet you're still pissed about them taking Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman off the air.

I've had Da Drought 3 on stready rotation. It mostly makes me nostalgic for The Heyday of Cash Money records. It amazes me how many records they (deservedly) sold without ever really getting accepted by the mainstream in the way someone like Snoop or 50 Cent has. The term "bling bling" is in the dictionary, but i'm still surprised at how many people have no idea where it came from. Mostly though, I would love to hear today's Lil Wayne over 1999 Mannie Fresh tracks.

I think a lot of Lil Wayne's verbal dexterity can be attributed to the fact that he grew up rapping, but unlike the other "lil's"( Bow-Wow and Romeo), he was never a novelty act. He signed to CMR at 11, but they held him back a bit while the others blew up, and by the time he was 16 they marketed him as if he was pretty much grown. Despite his youth and diminuitive moniker, he's been doing this for a long time. In hip-hop years, 14 years is forever.

What I find fascinating is that: a) He seems kind of bored with the rapper thing, and really wants to be a "rock star" And B) He obviously does a shit-ton of drugs, but manages to stay out of trouble.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:28 PM on October 19, 2007 [2 favorites]


Yo La Tengo, world's best rap artists!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:30 PM on October 19, 2007


Repeat after me:

Yo La Tengo De La Soul!
Yo La Tengo De La Soul!
Yo La, Yo La, Yo La, Yo La,
Yo La Tengo De La Soul!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:33 PM on October 19, 2007


Heh. Oops. Yeah, De La Soul.

I'm a hiphopster?
posted by TheNewWazoo at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2007


I think he's great, but due to the shameful step hip-hop beats have gone in in the past few years a lot of his beats are completely unlistenable.
posted by ageispolis at 6:03 PM on October 19, 2007


For the uninitiated or conditioned haters. Here are some quality rap songs.
Homecoming-by Kayne West (I'll be surprised if this doesn't get a Grammy)

I got it made-by Special Ed (Old school. This artist came out of nowhere with surprising lyrical technicality)

Dear summer -Jay-Z at the crest of his lyrical fever even after he got the CEO gig he couldn't put the mic down.

Intl Players Anthem-By UGK fet Andre 300 from Outkast who delivered an introspective, witty,sentimental flow with a relief matching weezy's; all over a real chill soul-beat.

You can thank me later. You know I got yo bac' like chiro-prac'.
posted by Student of Man at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2007


It's rap/hip-hop. It's not an art form. It's just mass-marketed laziness.
posted by wfc123 at 5:07 PM on October 19 [+] [!]


*rolls eyes*

It's really embarrassing at this point, isn't it, that any and every rap thread on MeFi turns into the same stupid, shrill argument on whether hip hop is music / is worthwhile / takes any talent / etc. etc. ad nauseum. So, you don't like it. Fine. Now if you'll stop the blanket dismissals of it as an art form, you'll stop giving yourself away as a clueless elitist.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2007


"These days, trotting out the ol' "Rap isn't music" rant is actually sort of quaint and charming."

No one said rap isn't music except you. People not liking it aren't claiming it isn't music, just that it's bad music.

Since our last discussion on this topic, I did a lot of research and I did find some rap music I actively liked -- Aesop Rock, MC Paul Berman for example -- but very little. Man, the quality of nearly all the rest was dreadful.

I should also add that I was part of an a cappella hip-hop duo Volectrix with Kid Lucky several years ago and we had two CD self-releases so I have done some work in this area myself.

I realize that why I think that rock music today is more interesting is that I see a heck of a lot of weird tiny bands in small underground clubs who passionately believe in what they're doing and are under no illusion whatsoever that they'll ever make money out of it. I go out to see DJ's too -- in some sense, some of them like Amon Tobin are the most truly unpredictable music I can find and are even quite successful at that.

I've been to a lot of "underground hip-hop" things too but I've never been able to stay -- I can't see why it's "underground" in the slightest, it sounds identical to the rest.

And this guy. Why is this interesting? I listened to the drug song -- I liked the opening hook, but then it was just sorta meh. I'm listening now to the "self-searching" one but so far it's been meh all the way through.

From listening to a chunk of it, it's better than your average hip-hop but if someone put on an album of his at a party, I'd be gone before track 3.


There's an underlying issue here that's become clearer to me. It's not that "rap isn't music" but that rappers aren't typically that interested in music and aren't primarily intending to cause a musical effect.

When I was researching, I found a lot of things that I really liked that I thought were hip-hop or mostly hip-hop (most recent example Fatboy Slim's "The Journey", where most of the lyrics are spoken) were universally considered not to be so.

I realized that there are all sorts of elements of music of all cultures that don't appear much in hip-hop, like counterpoint, harmony, solos, song structure, and instruments.

But you see, I *like* these things. If you take these all away you're just left with rhythm and speech -- a very dry meal for me.

Worse, they don't even let humans do the rhythm parts (except for the beatboxers, God love 'em, do check out Adam Matta or Kid Lucky if you're around New York) and they assign them to machines -- so you get these boring machine loops.

Now, I love drum machines, don't get me wrong! I use them all the time. But you have to put a lot of work into them. My friend was working in a top New York recording studio when Kraftwerk was working there -- they spent 40 hours of studio time getting just the kick drum for only one track. Now, Kraftwerk are known to be a littel crazy that way *but* the quality of the work speaks for itself.


I'm just waiting for the next new thing. It's been decades...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2007


Jesus christ, you people. You might as well be saying PLEASE CANCEL HIP HOP. Dr Quinn indeed.
posted by rxrfrx at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2007


Lupus, I commend your effort in trying to understand and appreciate hip-hop. But its pretty obvious that either you were looking in the wrong places, or you just don't get it.
posted by shotgunbooty at 7:55 PM on October 19, 2007


Also, OP, who are these fools at MTV that think Kanye West is a better rapper than Common or even Jay?
posted by shotgunbooty at 7:57 PM on October 19, 2007


Wow.

The fact that Weezy passes as imaginative is what makes rap such an easy target for people who still think it matters what genre something is.

There is derivative, self-satisfied, lazy crap, and then there is music, be it rap, rock, throat singing, whatever. That is the only distinction that matters, and Weezy here is in the former. Dude gets high and makes tenuous connections over recycled beats, and I'm supposed to be impressed? Everything going down in the world, I need to hear another rich guy telling me how great he is? What does he have to say? Nothing, from what I can tell. Oh, but he says it differently, sorta. And he did his obligatory talk-shit-about-the-President rap, so I guess he's "conscious".

Dead Prez easily put the emphasis in Lil' Wayne on the lil'. Aesop Rock would destroy this man in a proper battle - or, if we're going to stick to the self-important-I-Know-Rap-You-Don't weight class, try Soul Position. Hell, flippin' Buck 65 is more interesting than this guy.

Your favourite etc. etc.

Sorry.
posted by poweredbybeard at 8:02 PM on October 19, 2007 [2 favorites]


It's ok to not get why people like things, or even get why they like them and not relate. But shitting on the thread because you think there's a right version of taste is worthless. Just stand in the corner and giggle a little.
posted by mikeh at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2007


Everyone's favorite band sucks.
Anyone who has a favorite band sucks!

The Linkin Park Haters and the Lil' Wayne haters; the indie-rock haters and the opera haters; the Motorhead haters and the Air Supply haters; Beatle haters, Don Cheadle haters; Yo Yo Ma v. GG Allin in a cagematch haters; Britney haters and Britney hater haters; hate breeders, hate needers, hate readers,

"Why can't we all just get along?" WHY SHOULD WE!?

Let's all get together so we can hate everything in our path!

Burn, muthafuckahhhhh, burn!!

/me calls a time out on himself
posted by not_on_display at 8:49 PM on October 19, 2007 [1 favorite]


But the dude is one-of-a-kind. He's one of the only MCs that I can think of, especially in mainstream hiphop, who can sound downright carefree. And he's funny
Redman? Black Sheep? Luda? Phonte from Little Brother? Heck, even Em. Wayne is nothing new on any front, to me. I think that a lot of people that find him incredible have missed a lot of hip hop over the years. There are definitely some people who have said he's great who haven't, but I really do think people are caught up in the rapture. Young Joc, Dro and a bunch of rappers, notably Souljah Boy, the Ying Yang Twins and a bunch of other similar ringtone rappers just sound like trash to me. They're not even trying, and it shows.

Tell you this - you know how Ra's stuff is still incredible 20 years later? We won't be having this conversation about how Weezy's stuff is incredible or groundbreaking two decades hence. Or so that's my opinion anyway.
posted by cashman at 9:17 PM on October 19, 2007


You touch on an interesting point, cashman - namely that rap has no staying power. You throw NWA on the stereo around modern rap fans and you get a laugh, but noone actually wants to listen to it, to say nothing of the real old-school acts like Flash or RUN DMC. Why is that, I wonder?
posted by TheNewWazoo at 9:24 PM on October 19, 2007


Well if you throw on pretty much any 80's music, you've probably got a good shot at getting a laugh.
posted by cashman at 9:34 PM on October 19, 2007 [1 favorite]


The hood love to listen to Jeezy and Weezy and, oh yeah, Yeezy.

Wayne's nasal voice and scratchy delivery never did it for me, but I won't deny that he's funny and talented. Unfortunately, his spot on the new Kanye disc reminded me why I never really gave him much of a shot.

This is a good post, and I just might give Lil' Wayne one last try.
(Only if wfc123 is in my Best of '07 swap, so I can fill his disc with rap.)
posted by kyleg at 9:42 PM on October 19, 2007


lupus_yonderboy your entire argument is completely subjective, and therefore, all I can say is "good for you, fella", except for this part:

People not liking it aren't claiming it isn't music, just that it's bad music.

Just cause you don't like it don't make it bad. It just makes it something you don't like. And the only people who give a shit about what you like is you and your momma. And she probaly doesn't care as much as you think she does.

If you judge every genre by the worst it has to offer, then sure, everything sucks. I agree. But if hip hop is judged by the crap, and whatever YOU like is judged by that one sublime moment of non-commercial artistic passion you had in some club once, then maybe you should ask yourself "Am I just being a narrow-minded prick?"

And poweredbybeard, i have to take the Ebert route on this one. Lil Wayne is excellent at what he does, just as Aesop Rock is excellent at what he does. Everybody can't be Outkast.
Let the haters hate. To me the best thing about hip-hop is that it encompasses both Aesop Rock AND Lil Wayne. Hell, Even Souljaboy gets a pass. Cause sometimes I just wanna drink 40's and act stupid.

And the point everyone seems to be missing is this...Dude is completely circumventing established music industry promotional strategies.(granted, i't probably not Lil Wayne himself coming up with the ideas) He's keeping himself relevant to his fan base by dicking around in the studio, riffing on whatever is hot at the moment, and giving it away for free on the internet. Meanwhile, the majors keep swearing that they can't sell cd's if people have the ability to download music for free online. When he releases his next studio album, He's gonna sell twice as many records on half the marketing budget. Just look, you people hate hip-hop and you're talking about him.

And that means more syrup for Weezy.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:57 PM on October 19, 2007 [2 favorites]


Young Joc, Dro and a bunch of rappers, notably Souljah Boy, the Ying Yang Twins and a bunch of other similar ringtone rappers just sound like trash to me. They're not even trying, and it shows.

If you think Soulja Boy isn't trying then you clearly haven't heard "Just Got My Report Card." It is downright astonishingly weird and awesome, I swear.

Also telling people to do his eponymous dance and then insulting them for not doing it as well as him is pretty best.
posted by haveanicesummer at 10:47 PM on October 19, 2007 [1 favorite]


Some of the best rap artists today is white boys.

Sage is a white boy. Beck, that is a white boy. Beastie Boys is three Jewish-American white boys!
posted by ELF Radio at 11:10 PM on October 19, 2007


Some of the best rap artists today is white boys.

Wheezy, however, is black. Well, OK, he's a little bit white.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 11:53 PM on October 19, 2007


rxrfrx: You might as well be saying PLEASE CANCEL HIP HOP.

Absolutely. We've had thirty years of it. Rap music is 20 years older than Doctor Quinn (which I never heard of before now -- not having a TV is nice sometimes). PLEASE CANCEL HIP HOP NOW!

billyfleetwood: Just cause you don't like it don't make it bad.

You know, people here don't read very well, do they?

I didn't say anything like that.

I pointed out that there are many elements common to musics of all cultures that are absent from hip-hop and as a result it's missing most of what I and, apparently, most people throughout history have wanted to get from music, things like harmony, counterpoint, song structure, etc.

What I'm claiming is that hip-hop is music with most of the musical elements removed from it.


It just makes it something you don't like. And the only people who give a shit about what you like is you and your momma. And she probaly doesn't care as much as you think she does.

She's dead, thanks. Want the details? It was pretty sad.


If you judge every genre by the worst it has to offer, then sure, everything sucks.

Please read what I actually wrote. I spent quite a lot of time looking into it after our last discussion on this matter. I found some good hip-hop, but precious little -- my judgement was based on a pretty wide survey of the field.

Lil Wayne is excellent at what he does

OK. People keep claiming that but no one answered the question: "Why do you claim this music is at all interesting? What should I be getting out of this as someone who loves music?"

You say things like: "Dude is completely circumventing established music industry promotional strategies.(granted, i't probably not Lil Wayne himself coming up with the ideas) He's keeping himself relevant to his fan base by dicking around in the studio, riffing on whatever is hot at the moment, and giving it away for free on the internet."

This doesn't seem to have much to do with creating music. Even "riffing on whatever is hot at the moment" sounds more like "imitating what everyone else is doing" rather than "doing your own music."

I've talked to people dozens of times about what they like in hip-hop. Not one time have they actually talked about anything musical except the beat. Much of the time, it has something to do with the perceived image of the rappers (like that paragraph above).

So I stick to my guns. I have a very open mind. I've spent quite a bit of time on this, taken suggestions from MeFi, found some pieces I liked. I've been listening to rap music for 25 years. I've performed it on stage quite a few times, come out with two self-released CDs (admitted a cappella stuff but people seem to accept it as hip-hop).

Let's take as an example the idea of "experimental" or "avant-garde" music. The difference between, say, a mainstream rock band like U2 and an underground rock band like The Boredoms is pretty extreme; ditto the difference between Prodigy and Stockhausen in electronic music, or Beethoven and Schönberg in orchestral music. In all cases, one's iconic grandmother could easily distinguish one from the other with a minute's training.

I spent quite a while looking through the underground, experimental etc. hip-hop world and I had great trouble telling it from the regular stuff. Same beats -- all in 4/4, all with more or less the same song structure as a Ramones song. Same voice timbres, same rhythms, all sounds totally commercial to me. I do not believe you could train your grandmother to tell the difference.


I like listening to people's voices or instruments blend in harmony. I like to hear voices (people or instruments) against each other in counterpoint. I love a good melody. I love to hear a fine instrumentalist play, to hear an exciting solo. I even love song structure.

Clearly I'm not alone in this since musics of all cultures share these features.

Interestingly enough, when you hear Indonesian hip-hop or South Korean hip-hop or even French hip-hop to a certain extent, they tend to put such features back in.


So I didn't say "hip-hop is bad" which is hard to discuss.

What I did say is "hip-hop is generally missing many of the features of music that cultures around the world strongly value today and have throughout history." This is an objective statement that can be proven or negated. Please go ahead.

The one subjective part is that I then say, "I find hip-hop dull overall because it's missing all these great features that I dearly love."
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 12:08 AM on October 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


I have a very open mind.

No you don't. You seem like you came at hip hop with a point of view firmly implanted in your mind and just looked for things that confirmed that. If hip hop lacks all those musical elements you need so much why the fuck do you like beat boxing and Kraftwork? Just admit you're a hater and stop with the bullshit.
posted by afu at 4:06 AM on October 20, 2007 [2 favorites]


Redman? Black Sheep? Luda? Phonte from Little Brother? Heck, even Em ...

All great, but none of them come from deep left field the way Weezy can (or rather, Weezy does it better than any of them). The most legit knock against him from what I can tell is that he relies *so much* on the one-liner or the quick couplet. He hasn't really shown much interest in carrying out a complete narrative; that said, he's young and obviously talented. What hasn't been stressed enough is that he's made almost a career's worth of quality music in 10 months (well, that's accepting that you think it's good in the first place, but ...).

Whatevs, I'm not trying to convert anyone. Thanks to this FPP and the Sasha Frere-Jones FPP, I've dug up to a ton of Weezy and Pavement tonight, and I'm going to sleep a very happy man.
posted by NolanRyanHatesMatches at 4:53 AM on October 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


If converts need some white hosers rapping to identify (as I do), there's some urban amateur hypochondriac alcoholics with faces that were made for doing radio out there. But not many music videos.
posted by anthill at 6:25 AM on October 20, 2007


Thanks NolanRyanHatesMatches. I actually like that there's a popular rapper I can't stand. There are an awful lot of current rappers I love. It means this genre has grown beyond me and matured. It means I can no longer keep it in my pocket, or know almost every single song and group in it. I love that. I still remember when teachers and friends would look at you with a disapproving glare if you even mentioned rap music.

So I don't like the guy and I think he sucks, but on another level, it kind of makes me happy that this is occurring.
posted by cashman at 6:32 AM on October 20, 2007


The most legit knock against him from what I can tell is that he relies *so much* on the one-liner or the quick couplet. He hasn't really shown much interest in carrying out a complete narrative; that said, he's young and obviously talented.

Exactly. Da Drought 3 might as well have been called Some Similes I Said. Not that there's anything wrong with that... but you have to say it with a style that makes it worth not having a narrative, and I think that's where people's tastes tend to diverge a lot more. It's harder to make a pseudo-objective agreement on what is a good flow or a good accent or a good attitude than it is to agree on what's a serious narrative.
posted by rxrfrx at 7:34 AM on October 20, 2007


I really like Duffle Bag Boy. The folks who are hating on hiphop are probably the same ones who think there is no reason to ever drive faster than 90 miles an hour. NO BALLS ALL BRAINS
posted by MNDZ at 8:04 AM on October 20, 2007


Great post. I'd just like to say how disappointed I am that this digressed into another discussion on the merits of hip-hop. I don't shit all over your posts on gamma rays and Edwardian speech now do I?

With that said, Weezy is imaginative and original. Two characteristics sorely lacking in today's ringtone environment.
posted by willie11 at 9:33 AM on October 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


it's missing most of what I and, apparently, most people throughout history have wanted to get from music, things like harmony, counterpoint, song structure, etc.

And yet, today, millions of people around the world enjoy hip-hop music.

Lupus: harmony, counterpoint, song structure, melody. These things are just elements of music. They are not what people "get from music". They are a means to an end.

What people want from music is to be moved, to be affected emotionally. Whether that means being moved to sadness by "Jesus the Pimp in a 79 Granada...", or feeling joy at hearing the creativity and pure skill of Gift of Gab freestyling or performing Alphabet Aerobics, or whether it just means feeling moved to dance when someone throws Lady Dont Tek No on, hip-hop has proved to be incredibly versatile and excellent at doing it.
posted by AceRock at 9:45 AM on October 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


I have a very open mind.

No you don't.


I beg to differ. Almost all of the music I really love (except for things like The Beatles from my childhood) was music I was deeply suspicious of from the very start. I wouldn't be in this thread except that I had the nagging suspicion that there's something I'm missing in hip-hop.

I should point out to you that I discovered rap comparatively early and was a big fan -- but it fell off a cliff extremely quickly and I couldn't listen to it any more.


You seem like you came at hip hop with a point of view firmly implanted in your mind and just looked for things that confirmed that. If hip hop lacks all those musical elements you need so much why the fuck do you like beat boxing and Kraftwork? Just admit you're a hater and stop with the bullshit.

I like beatboxers because they are instrumentalists. I like Kraftwerk because they have song structure and also because they have the monster drum machine programming.

When rap started, there was some amazing drum machine programming in there, like Public Enemy. A big issue with today's hiphop is that after the first 10 seconds, you know pretty well exactly what the rhythm track is going to be for the whole track.

In general, no one seems to have addressed my original question: "What musical reasons do you have for saying this guy is imaginative and original?" or my more general claim, "Rap is missing most of the musical elements common to music of all other genres and cultures, like counterpoint, harmony, instrumentalists, song structure..."
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:23 AM on October 20, 2007


AceRock, thanks for some good writing on this.

People clearly are moved by hip-hop, I certainly won't dispute that. I'm just saying that they are mostly moved by things other than the musical qualities of the music.

I don't deny that some hip-hop is danceable, nor that danceability is a musical virtue. I love to dance and a lot of the music I listen to has strong dance beats.

Hiphop beats unfortunately fall in a "bland valley" for me between the warm, breathing rhythms of, say, Fela Kuti (or if you want someone who sequences, Fatboy Slim for example) and the micro-attention to detail that characterizes, say, Kraftwerk or The Orb. (Sorry for the pejorative "bland" but I want to get it out.)

I'd be particularly grateful if you or someone else turned me on to hip hop with beats I might like from the above description.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:49 AM on October 20, 2007


Lupus, wrt beats:

Check out DJ Shadow's first album Endtroducting. It is more than 10 years old, but it is considered a modern hiphop classic.

Or RJD2's "Dead Ringer" album.

Also, when live instrumentation is brought up, people usually say "check out the Roots", but really they are quite mediocre. You may be surprised to learn that a lot of Outkast's stuff is live instrumentation, courtesy of the Dungeon Family. Check out their Aquemini album.
posted by AceRock at 11:10 AM on October 20, 2007 [1 favorite]


On thinking about this some more (and feel free to stop reading :-D I'm really trying to work this out for myself)...

As I'm sure a lot of you have realized, I am unapologetically at heart a classicist and a liberal/socialist/leftie. I really do believe in things like "bettering yourself" and "social responsibility" and "aspirations" and "a better world" even though I'm twenty-first enough to laugh at myself too. I think the idea of "uplifting" isn't pretentious or stupid and I think it's sad that people have to believe in humourless and potentially destructive things like theistic religions to be uplifted.

I'm a terrible alpha male and I feel intellectually that I have to channel that energy into socially cooperative channels. It's not that I don't cut loose, oh, boy, but it'll be in some verbal flight of fancy, some wild musical solo, some crazy patterned rhythmic dance in front of the crowd, not doing the Cannonball Run.


As you might have guessed, I'm coming to lyrics.

The average piece of music of course has pretty bad lyrics. I like Yes, but when Rick Wakeman sings, "Mountains come out of the clouds and they stand there," I just have to snicker (because the image in my mind is always, what if they *didn't* just stand there? Run away!!) I could wish better lyrics on some famous bands, but it doesn't really detract from the good parts.

And an awful lot of songs are simply about being in love which is again a little repetitive but when it comes down to it something I think of as "uplifting" (there's that word again) even if expressed in a mostly bland fashion.

There's an Aesop Rock song I found (but I don't have on this machine so don't have the title, sorry) about a little girl who grew up to be a woman who did her own thing and contributed to the world in her own way and then died after a quiet life which was mostly very happy because she'd done what she really wanted. I literally cried -- and I did just now. That sort of thing really means a lot to me.

On the other hand, there's a jazz standard called "Try A Little Tenderness" that I always liked as an instrumental until I heard the lyrics -- now it slightly annoys me (even though I have to laugh too as a period piece) because I thought it was going to be a love song, not a lecture on the frailty of women.


So it's not that there aren't some amazingly good lyrics in hip-hop; it's that a significant portion of the songs are crass and have lyrics that represent to me the sort of mindless, coarse, violent, alpha-male-dominated consumerist society that we've become; and that if I sit in a room where someone is playing hiphop I sooner or later hear too many songs that I actively dislike for exactly this reason: The folks who are hating on hiphop are probably the same ones who think there is no reason to ever drive faster than 90 miles an hour. NO BALLS ALL BRAINS

And I agree completely. A big reason that I don't like hiphop as a whole is that I do think we need less balls and more brains -- I think our current government shows what happens with too much balls and not enough brains -- and I'm never going to like the sort of music this guy does because we're never going to see eye to eye until and unless he develops a sense of social responsibility.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 12:18 PM on October 20, 2007


"What musical reasons do you have for saying this guy is imaginative and original?" or my more general claim, "Rap is missing most of the musical elements common to music of all other genres and cultures, like counterpoint, harmony, instrumentalists, song structure..."

While your criteria for judging what you like may be objective, your decision to use that criteria is completely subjective, which makes it easy to dismiss. Someone else may choose to only like music that adheres to their christian values, or only like songs with tambourines. Whatever floats your boat. You think Beatboxers are instrumentalists. Great. I think a pair of turntables in the right hands is a symphony orchestra. You want to cancel hip hop? You don't even know what hip hop is.

To me, what make Lil Wayne so good right now is that he's making great mixtapes. Mixtapes arent albums. Songs on mixtapes aren't really songs. Hell, mixtapes arent even tapes. But they used to be. Think of it this way, 50 Cent made some great mixtapes as a stepping stone to becoming an established recording artist. Lil Wayne is going in the other direction, and it's pretty fascinating.

I can't make the case for hip hop in this thread, and i shouldn't have to. But I can think of quite a few songs that say much more than I ever could. If you're in the "I don't get this hip hop stuff" camp, drop me a line, and I'd be more than happy to tell you what they are, and why.
posted by billyfleetwood at 12:30 PM on October 20, 2007


I've talked to people dozens of times about what they like in hip-hop. Not one time have they actually talked about anything musical except the beat. Much of the time, it has something to do with the perceived image of the rappers...

1) the beat can't be "musical"??? This is a continental bias. Rhythm is music, and lyrics are rhythmic. I love kanye's beats for their musicality. Say what you will about his lyrics, attitude, etc. And, as a drummer, I always loved how tribe called quest would end their lines alternately on a syncopated "up-beat" then on the "down-beat."

2) I think you are absolutely right that most people identify with hip hop's image. But the same goes for any style of music. I freely admit that the persona of rappers is often what appeals to me. And I think you have boiled it down nicely to the fact that it is the persona, not the musicality, that you are opposed to. It's not, then, that most rapper's lyrics lack originality or musicality, only that they don't fit your particular worldview or what you conceive of as valuable social content.

Whew. I can't wait for the hate on the next kanye post.
hating is an art form.
posted by whahappen?! at 12:39 PM on October 20, 2007


I'm willing to take a stab at answering some of your earlier questions more directly, lupus_yonderboy:

I pointed out that there are many elements common to musics of all cultures that are absent from hip-hop and as a result it's missing most of what I and, apparently, most people throughout history have wanted to get from music, things like harmony, counterpoint, song structure, etc.

What I'm claiming is that hip-hop is music with most of the musical elements removed from it.


Well, not to be insulting, but that's an ignorant assertion and your claim is indefensible because of it. What you claim that you and "most people throughout history have wanted to get from music" is actually only really what people in western cultures have wanted. Two obvious examples to refute your assertion would be west African drumming (which is based on concepts that underpin much of American popular music, and have for over a century) or Balinese gamelan music, both of which organize sound in very different ways than in the western classical tradition.

Those elements that you value in your musical experiences--and wrongly project onto billions of other people--have been conditioned by the culture you grew up in. Elements you mention like harmony, counterpoint, and song structure (meaning a melodically-based short composition typically in strophic arrangements like 12 bar blues or 32 bar form) are based in a pitch-centric conception of musical composition. West African drumming, for an easy contrast, is rhythm-centric in concept (with fairly important elements of timbre, depending upon the specific tradition), thus people in those cultures typically prefer complex rhythmic arrangements and subtleties, whereas western ears prefer those based upon pitch. (To contrast with my other example above, time in gamelan music is conceived cyclically, where in western music it is linear.)

[Tangentially, what is fascinating about American popular music is that it is fundamentally a hybrid between pitch-based and rhythm-based musics--so much of it comes from African-Americans, all the way back through blues to cakewalks and shout circles. With the widespread cultural mixing that occured in the first half of the 20th century--not just in the US but all over--one finds a profound shift in western concert ("classical") music as well as popular music. I presume the greatest compositions of the 20th century would satisfy your criteria for musical merit, where do you think that the fascination for rhythm and timbre found in the music of Stravinsky, Copland, Bartok, etc., comes from? Certainly not from the western concert tradition, whose pitch-centric conceptual perspective was busy being dismantled by Schoenberg, Webern, Berg and children.]

Before somebody could explain to you how the elements of hip hop music are in fact musical, you have to realize the conceptual prejudices inherent in your perspective on the musical art. Your assertions reveal that you just don't understand or have much breadth of experience with the art form. And in spite of your most recent post above pleading for more uplifting art--an admirable wish, definitely--the fact is that much of any other kind of genre of music is full of deplorable social and personal attitudes. Most of everything is crap, get over that; and there is a whole body of hip hop that is quite positive, spiritual, and uplifiting.

Once you realize that, it becomes "OK" that a typical hip hop track creates musical interest through emphases of meter and rhythm, and frequently a keen sense of texture, timbre, and space. And those are just the beats. Vocally, it might perhaps be advisable for you to start with the tradition of sprechgesang and sprechstimme to understand the stylistic practice a little better, as well as how the techniques are musically expressive. (And it has roots in early 20th century expressionism, so it's legit!)

Finally, I would advise anyone to realize that, especially when it comes to music, our perspectives are all typically heavily culturally conditioned, and be more aware when you're projecting your values and biases onto a musical experience, which has no interest in conforming to your expectations.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:39 PM on October 20, 2007 [11 favorites]


*gives LooseFilter a hardy round of applause*
posted by flapjax at midnite at 11:21 PM on October 20, 2007


I've been a moderate fan of hip hop for a long, long time.

Can someone recommend for me some hip hop or rap that has complex rhythms? Nothing resembling complex African rhythms springs to mind, and if there's some great rap out there that is based on complex rhythms incorporating polyrhythms, changing time signatures, or something like that, I would love to get into it.

Maybe LooseFilter can point me in the direction of some truly rhythmically complex rap music. I like to think I've done more than just scratch the surface over the years, but I'd love to be exposed to more.

Thanks!
posted by The World Famous at 11:42 PM on October 20, 2007


The World Famous: I would also be interested to hear what "hip hop" would sound like in an odd time signature. The thing is, hip hop is still tied to dance music, and you don't often see people dancing in 5 or 7 (and dancing in 3 hasn't been popular for like a hundred years). Jazz stepped out of the dance-based culture and began doing things with polyrhythms and odd times and so forth, but not until like 30 or 40 years after its original development. Rock music took less time, but maybe just because those artists who did that type of music borrowed so much from jazz.

So... wait for the next generation of hip hop, when it becomes something different?
posted by rxrfrx at 10:38 AM on October 21, 2007


Yes, rxrfrx is right--it's rare to hear any hip hop or electronica not in 4*. I do find fairly sophisticated uses of rhythm (inversion of pulse, polyrhythms) in electronica more often than in hip hop (in my experience many Detroit techno artists like Carl Craig, Juan Atkins, etc., as well as European electronica musicians like Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, many of the other Warp Records artists...for outstanding recent American electronica, check out Masonic on iTunes, the track Rhombus is in 6/4, at least--and I mention electronica in the same breath as hip hop because they are both the immediate children of funk in large part).

The hip hop I love is mainly Bay area (artists on the Quanuum label, like Blackalicious and Lyrics Born) and other indy artists (like Rhymesayers, esp. Eyedea, or Def Jux artists). In Bay area hip hop I hear strong funk roots (unsurprisingly, given the musical lineage of the past 35 years there), and a great deal of timbral and textural play that's very enjoyable. The Def Jux artists tend to have a more austere sense of sound, and the beats create interest through more subtle emphases of pulse.

But I'm really not the person to recommend tons of hip hop, I'm just a casual fan; my main interest is concert music. Also, as an instrumentalist, I tend to listen to the beats much more closely than lyrics or vocal delivery.

(*-Another important element to remember with regard to things like use of rhythm and pulse is cultural heritage: odd meters in western music come primarily from the influence of the folk music of central and eastern Europe, and western Asia (where the metric flow of the songs is very often asymmetrical), which is why one first hears it in the music of composers like Bartok and Stravinsky. Contrast that with the music of American Aaron Copland, whose rhythmic sense was very much influenced by jazz--he writes less in odd meters, but rather uses syncopations and other elements learned from that tradition; which makes sense because jazz is American, born of a hybrid between African and American folk musics--just like the blues and all its children, rock included. Interestingly, Copland did not find the harmonic ideas of jazz very interesting, which makes sense because he already had a keenly developed sense of pitch language himself, easily audible in his early populist works like Billy the Kid and Appalachian Spring. The rhythmic influence of jazz is already evident in those works, as well. These rhythmic ideas come almost completely from Africa, and African drumming. In those traditions, pulse is quite regular--again, connected to movement--and sophistication comes through layering of patterns, which generates not only polyrhythms but all sorts of interesting rhythmic counterpoint.)
posted by LooseFilter at 11:39 AM on October 21, 2007 [1 favorite]


Lupus: There's an Aesop Rock song I found (but I don't have on this machine so don't have the title, sorry) about a little girl who grew up to be a woman who did her own thing and contributed to the world in her own way and then died after a quiet life which was mostly very happy because she'd done what she really wanted. I literally cried -- and I did just now. That sort of thing really means a lot to me.

That's "No Regrets" from Labor Days
posted by vito90 at 2:25 PM on October 21, 2007


In reflecting on this further, I think--as with many things--Bill Watterson said it better, funnier, and more succinctly:
CALVIN (gesturing to various works): A painting. Moving. Spiritually enriching. Sublime. "High" art.

CALVIN: The comic strip. Vapid. Juvenile. Commercial hack work. "Low" art.

CALVIN: A painting of a comic strip panel. Sophisticated irony. Philosophically challenging. "High" art.

HOBBES: Suppose I draw a cartoon of a painting of a comic strip?

CALVIN: Sophomoric...Intellectually sterile..."Low" art.
posted by LooseFilter at 5:49 PM on October 21, 2007


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