Marriage of 15-year-old to 48-year-old to be reviewed by Nevada Supreme Court.
March 26, 2001 9:26 PM   Subscribe

 
The father's lawyer, who's trying to get the marriage overturned said:

"It's obscene for a 48-year-old man to be married to a 15-year-old girl," Nathan said.

Is it just me, or is the word 'obscene' thrown around too easily? Anyone who thinks consentual marriage is obscene needs to spend some more time forced to look at goatse.cx, IMO.
posted by Neb at 9:36 PM on March 26, 2001


WARNING: goatse.cx contains a very obscene image.

[some things are better left uncovered, trust me]
posted by hobbes at 9:43 PM on March 26, 2001


Discovered an ASCII art rendition of goatse.cx today on Slashdot, actually. Sorry, don't have a link to the thread. The idea that someone would take the time to recreate that image in text is just mind-boggling.
posted by kindall at 11:14 PM on March 26, 2001


I think Neb should have to pay me back the 5 dollars I spent at Subway tonight.

On the subject, however, I do believe there is some amount of obscenity involved when a 48 year old man is allowed to marry a 15 year old girl. I'm pretty sure in my state thats its illegal for an 18 year old to have sex with a 15 year old. I believe that call it statutory rape.
posted by howa2396 at 11:42 PM on March 26, 2001


Sorry to anyone who hadn't already experienced the horrers of that disgusting little meme. I thought it had made the rounds. I'll put warnings on all my future goatse.cx mentions.

But, on topic, regardless how troublesome you find two people with a large age difference marrying, how could it possibly be considered obscenity? Before modern American culture picked up its strange set of moral standards, women were married off at younger ages than 14... And, unless they're going to engage in some sexual acts for public display, I don't see how their marriage could be the least bit obscene.

ob·scene (b-sn, b-)
adj.

1. Offensive to accepted standards of decency or modesty. See Synonyms at coarse.
2.Inciting lustful feelings; lewd.
3. Offensive or repulsive to the senses; loathsome: “The way he writes about the disease that killed her is simply obscene” (Michael Korda).
posted by Neb at 12:16 AM on March 27, 2001


Kindall: If it eases your mind any, there are programs that convert photos to ascii.

O.T. I've known worse things to happen to 15 year olds than to get married. Marrying a daughter off to a 48 year old is a lot better than having her run off with an 18 year old. I predict she'll be divorced by the time she's 21, but that's better than being strung out by 19. I'm assuming that she's one of the headstrong girls that seems to hit the world early. In that case New Mexico with a husband is a much better place than SF with her father.
posted by valintin23 at 12:45 AM on March 27, 2001


Not only that, Neb, but "She also argues that Nevada law pertaining to the marriage of a child 15 or younger is unconstitutional." Maybe I need to brush up on the constitution but I don't remember anything being said about the age of consent for marriage.
posted by crushed at 12:49 AM on March 27, 2001


valintin23: I'm aware of the programs for converting photos to text, but this was definitely (ahem) a hand job.
posted by kindall at 12:51 AM on March 27, 2001


kindall: said ASCII art rendition available here.

ASCII or no, it's still damn disturbing. :-p
posted by youhas at 1:54 AM on March 27, 2001


Maybe I need to brush up on the constitution but I don't remember anything being said about the age of consent for marriage.

It might be the Nevada constitution.
posted by kindall at 2:19 AM on March 27, 2001


Before modern American culture picked up its strange set of moral standards, women were married off at younger ages than 14

Yeah, let's go back to the good old days, where fathers married off their daughters at the age of 13, and they never left the house, and most of them died in childbirth.

That's the sort of scenario you had when you had girls marrying at that age. In an age where women are considered, you know, citizens and all, things are a bit different.
posted by dagnyscott at 6:04 AM on March 27, 2001


Whether you agree with the age of marriage or not, the fact of the matter is that Dad wasn't around, a decision was made without Dad, and then Dad got pissed and went to court. Dad's influence may have been a lot more effective had Dad taken an interest in his daughter's life before, and not after, her marriage. Just my $0.02.
posted by rklawler at 6:23 AM on March 27, 2001


Issues of obscenity or constitutionality notwithstanding, I seriously question the motives of any 48 year old man who wants to marry a 15 year old girl.

Dad's influence may have been a lot more effective had Dad taken an interest in his daughter's life before, and not after, her marriage.

I would imagine that had something to do with the girl's desire to be permanently attached to a man more than old enough to be her father. But that's just my weak stab at amateur psychology.
posted by jennyb at 6:32 AM on March 27, 2001


Neb wrote:

I don't see how their marriage could be the least bit obscene.

ob·scene (b-sn, b-)
adj.

1. Offensive to accepted standards of decency or modesty.


Well, I think you just answered your own question. A lot of us (particularly those of us with daughters, but others as well) think that it's indecent for a 15 year-old girl to marry a 48 year-old man.

As for "before modern American culture picked up its strange set of moral standards, women were married off at younger ages than 14," I think that's blatantly sexist. You seem to want to go back to the days when women were treated as property.

As for a mother who petitions the court to allow her child to marry a man three times the child's age, well, maybe the girl's better off not being with her. "It is my sincere desire to see for the two to be married, as planned, as I have seen no other couple so right for each other." It sounds like a hippie thing to me. Either that or it's a white trash thing.

I feel sorry for this girl. She has the choice of an irresponsible mother or being married at 15. And it doesn't seem like Dad was involved as he should have been, but don't jump to the conclusion that he was uninvolved by his own choice. In a divorce, sometimes the father is excluded, particularly when a mother takes a child and moves away. Of course, it may have been he who moved away, in which case, shame on him. But that still wouldn't mean that it's wrong for him to contest the marriage.
posted by anapestic at 7:01 AM on March 27, 2001


> Issues of obscenity or constitutionality notwithstanding,
> I seriously question the motives of any 48 year old man
> who wants to marry a 15 year old girl.

Funny me, it never occurred to me to question his motives. I figured they were, like, crystal clear...
posted by jfuller at 8:47 AM on March 27, 2001


> It sounds like a hippie thing to me. Either that or it's
> a white trash thing.

I vote for hippie. Mom, daughter and geriatric husband all live in Taos. Mom named daughter "Sierra Dawn." Husband was girl's guitar teacher, describes himself as "an artist, a poet, a sculptor, a dancer and a musician." My guess is mom's been on pipeweed all day every day since 1967.
posted by jfuller at 8:57 AM on March 27, 2001


anapestic and dagnyscott: I'm sorry if my comments came off a little sexist, but I believe that treating teenagers with enough respect to allow them to make their own life decisions is not the same as women being treated as property.

I fully agree that everyone involved in this messy family situation has a boatload of issues. The husband, if he truely loved the girl, would probably wait a few more years until she can rationaly think over the choice she's making. The girl, without a full time father, has clung onto this older man with some hopes that she will probably realize will never be fulfilled. But, all the same, shame on anyone who goes so far as to call someone else's marriage 'obscene'.
posted by Neb at 9:07 AM on March 27, 2001


It's nice to see that Jerry Lee Lewis is keeping himself busy.
posted by Skot at 9:26 AM on March 27, 2001


in an age where women are considered, you know, citizens and all, things are a bit different.

Apparently, you don't consider women citizens until they turn 18...
posted by jpoulos at 9:37 AM on March 27, 2001


Apparently, you don't consider women citizens until they turn 18...

Maybe she doesn't consider a girl an adult woman until she turns 18.

And, Neb, that is some spin job. You went from:

Before modern American culture picked up its strange set of moral standards, women were married off at younger ages than 14

to

I believe that treating teenagers with enough respect to allow them to make their own life decisions is not the same as women being treated as property.

People should pretty much be allowed to do what they want if a) it doesn't hurt anyone else, and b) they're competent to make the decision. Neither condition is true in this case. Let's say this girl gets married, has a couple of kids, and then gets divorced. When that happens, suddenly all of us are responsible for footing the bill for little Prairie Sunshine and Dakota Coyote.

Personally, I don't think anyone should get married before the age of 25, but certainly not before 18. There is just no way that this girl is making a fully informed choice.
posted by anapestic at 10:09 AM on March 27, 2001


Dakota Coyote is a pretty neat name, though.
posted by jennyb at 10:16 AM on March 27, 2001


Thanks, jennyb. Feel free to use it if you have a son (or another son). Just don't hold me responsible when he marries some sixteen year old, and they decide to name your grandchild Wile E.
posted by anapestic at 10:37 AM on March 27, 2001


Personally, I don't think anyone should get married before the age of 25

Hear, hear. *cough*

-Mars
posted by Mars Saxman at 11:53 AM on March 27, 2001


Apparently, you don't consider women citizens until they turn 18...

Well, until you're 18, you're under the control of your parents. So, in many ways, you're not. I don't know if that's morally right, but that's the way it is. As long as that's in place, you can't really be said to consent to anything. It's that issue that's central, not the maturity of the girl.
posted by dagnyscott at 1:17 PM on March 27, 2001


anapestic: Just don't hold me responsible when he marries some sixteen year old, and they decide to name your grandchild Wile E.

Oh there would be no one to blame but Dakota himself. I mean, by the time he reaches his late 40s and meets the 16 year old of his dreams, I would think he could make his own decisions.
posted by jennyb at 2:07 PM on March 27, 2001


anapestic: Personally, I don't think anyone should get married before the age of 25, but certainly not before 18. There is just no way that this girl is making a fully informed choice.

It's obvious that we have a difference of opinion here, but I believe in people's rights not to have other people's beliefs pushed upon them. If these two people want to be married, and they can do it legally, who are you to say anything about that union?

I guess this is a sensitive point for me, since my wife is 9 years older than me, and I have found that there is no more arbitrary means of measuring anything in our society than age...
posted by Neb at 3:48 PM on March 27, 2001


I guess this is a sensitive point for me, since my wife is 9 years older than me, and I have found that there is no more arbitrary means of measuring anything in our society than age...

hear, hear, neb! sometimes people are more mature than their age would indicate. i've known a few fifteen year olds who could handle a 48-year old man. i'm not sure i personally would ever want to get married so early, but i'm not doing it, am i? i say let her do it simply because i don't know where the line gets drawn. when does it stop being obscene? is a relationship between an 18 year old and a 62 year old obscene? how about one between and 18 year old and a 31 year old? how about one between a 16 year old and a 24 year old? i understand that lines have to be drawn eventually or pedophiles'll start gettin' in on the action, but it's all so case-by-case to me. and when you get into marriage, you're getting into love, and if you try to fuck with love using the law, i get pissed off. who are you to say these two aren't in love?
posted by pikachulolita at 7:18 PM on March 27, 2001


Dagnyscott:
In an age where women are considered, you know, citizens and all, things are a bit different.

Oh, of course. I understand perfectly. Because they're considered 'citizens', we *deprive them* of the right to get married at 15, if they're in love.

Got it.

:-)
posted by baylink at 9:22 AM on March 28, 2001


Oh, of course. I understand perfectly. Because they're considered 'citizens', we *deprive them* of the right to get married at 15, if they're in love.

No. My point is that we have things like age of consent laws for a reason, and those that try to refute these based on age statistics of various past eras are missing the point that "consent" was an irrelevant idea for women then.
posted by dagnyscott at 2:14 PM on March 28, 2001


The father obviously wasn't around much. He didn't attempt to stop the marriage until after it had occurred. Whether that's the father's, daughter's, or mother's fault is unknown. It's also irrelevant. I personally find the idea of a 15 year old and a 48 year old together as husband and wife rather disgusting, but that's also irrelevant.

The father, as far as I can tell, has no case. I may be mistaken, especially since I know basically nothing of Nevada law, but unless the father's lawyer can prove that the judge made a bad call for a reason other than the age difference, the girl has every right to remain married. The girl wanted to do it. The mother had no problem with it. The mother signed something that made the girl able to consent. Everything was done legally. And besides, if the girl decides she really doesn't want to be married after all, she more than likely can get an annulment.

For all the people who don't believe that a 15 year old can handle getting married...would you be nearly so up in arms if she was marrying an 18 year old? If not, why?

What I find rather humorous is the fact that if this girl were a year older she could legally consent to have sex with this man without her parent's permission. But she would have get to a signed slip of paper to marry him.
posted by crushed at 8:24 PM on March 28, 2001


Society has only come to see such a marriage as obscene relatively recently. Since the beginning of time a girl became a woman once she was of child bearing age, and they often married much older men (as they were raised without a stigma against it). But with the rise of feminism, and the absurd idea that a woman is equal to a man in all areas (physically, emotionally, and intellectually), society now takes egalitarian views on such things, contrary to the bibles assertion that the husband is to be the head of the wife.
Shakespere's "Juliet" was 13 years old. The French explorer Samuel de Champlain was 42 when he married his 12 year old wife. Edgar Allen Poe married a 13 year old woman. Lavoisier (discoverer of oxygen) took a 13 year old wife. Even Ghandi married a 12 year old, although he was close to her age.
It has only been in the past 100 years or so that this has all changed. Men are now looked upon differently, looked down upon actually. Old men are seen as lechers, and women are being venerated as innocent and all virtuous. The family, religion and society in general is being feminized in the West and beyond.
To read a very interesting study on when feminist efforts got America to throw biology out the window and start calling women children, see the following:
http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~child/conference/lindenmeyer.htm
Ironically what feminism instills in girls is masculinity, it tells them to be more like a men, independent and assertive etc. So no longer does the family have a head, the man, but now women have the right to assert a democracy type model for marriage, and divorce men if they think they may be unhappy. Now gender roles are confused and the family is crumbling as divorce skyrockets. This spills over to the general social decay we are seeing, such as the killings at Columbine High School in Colorado. So much for our "progressive", "advancing" society.
A younger wife would more likely submit to the headship of an older man and that would make a harmonious marriage. Children would be secure in their sexuality, things would in general be more healthy, but the feminists don't want men to head women, so the price is the destruction of the family and social decay.
Nothing is as unattractive in a woman as masculinity. In my lifetime I've seen the word 'femininity' drop from popular usage in our culture. What we have today is a twisting of gender roles when girls are forced into a 'man-mold', if you will.
A woman's true beauty is her femininity, and that is what a man naturally seeks to join to in marriage. But today women lose their femininity early on because feminism rips it out of them, stomps on it, and instills masculine traits in them instead. This is a perversion of what is natural and beautiful in a woman.
It is very normal for an older single man to recognize this and seek a much younger women who is still feminine. Yet the feminists have society deceived into calling the normal man the pervert, and this more normal relationship "obscene".
Whether you know it or not, when you call such a marriage "obscene" you are kowtowing to emasculating, anti-male, anti-family feminist agendas. MrMtnHiker@aol.com
posted by RockyMtnMan at 5:31 AM on September 1, 2001


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