Comments on: China Miéville says libertarianism's all at sea

China Miéville says libertarianism's all at sea

Jakey — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:41:55 -0800

Remember the Freedom Ship? (Previously). Well, it's still no nearer reality. China Miéville reckons it's due to the fact that it's a perfect example of the libertarian fantasy. Some libertarians take issue with his portrayal of the movement. Meanwhile the serious seasteaders think he must be talking about someone else. Maybe one of these guys?

By: wfrgms

wfrgms — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:47:02 -0800

... "libertarianism," that peculiarly American philosophy of venal petty-bourgeois dissidence. Heh... hes got their number.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:49:46 -0800

Not surprisingly, this use for ships has been enthusiastically adopted by businesses, such as SeaCode, which promotes locating outsourced foreign software engineers three miles off the coast of Los Angeles to avoid pesky immigration and labor laws. I thought that was pretty funny. This is a pretty hilarious article overall as well.

By: DU

DU — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:51:08 -0800

I actually did not remember this, having never heard of it before. But it definitely is a perfect example of the libertarianism: Only the rich need apply. (And of course the irony of libertarians is that they are overwhelmingly highly-educated white men, the very people who are most helped by the existing establishment. Fish in water.)

By: DU

DU — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:56:04 -0800

s/highly-educated white men/highly-educated rich white men/

By: absalom

absalom — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:56:16 -0800

Good article, overall. But, to borrow and butcher a quote from Hemmingway: "Poor Meville. Does he really think big ideas come from big words?"

By: DU

DU — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:08:04 -0800

Good Brechtians, we ask: Who is to maintain New Utopia, Laissez-Faire City, the Freedom Ship? Who will cook the feasts and clean the heads? So many reports. So many questions. The fantasists of libertarian seasteading are vague or silent about on-ship labor standards, preferring not to ponder who will swab the decks on which the offshore traders, speculators and Web entrepreneurs will promenade. Awesome--I was about to ask exactly the same question in almost the exact same words. Who cleans the sewage system? Presumably whoever it is will be the richest person on board....right?

By: malaprohibita

malaprohibita — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:20:42 -0800

The libertarian seasteaders are a joke. The pitiful, incoherent and cowardly utopia they pine for is a spoilt child's autarky, an imperialism of outsourcing, a very petty fascism played as maritime farce: Pinochet of Penzance. Lovely sentiment, but I also have to agree with absalom.

By: mikeh

mikeh — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:22:34 -0800

I hadn't really heard of this Freedom Ship, but in retrospect, that's probably what an issue of Grant Morrison's comic series The Filth was parodying. Note: it did not end well.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:23:07 -0800

Awesome--I was about to ask exactly the same question in almost the exact same words. Who cleans the sewage system? ROBOTS. Duh.

By: picea

picea — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:29:25 -0800

Missing from the Freedom Ship's list of features: ♦ 5,800 insane and bloodthirsty splicers, hunting passengers for their sweet, sweet adam.

By: JeremyT

JeremyT — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:32:48 -0800

Big words are kinda China's thing. As a SF/F writer, his prose is pretty wild and opulent and I think it helps him stand out in a field where "transparent" prose was sort of the norm for quite a long time. Personally, I like it. Regarding the article, I really agree with Mieville on this. Has any one of these super-ships ever set sail, once? I feel like I've been reading about them since the dawn of the internet.

By: absalom

absalom — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:37:23 -0800

JeremyT: He's not a "Sci/Fi Writer," just ask him. It's my understanding that he considers himself a writer of "fantastic fiction" or "weird fiction." Between that view of himself, and the fact that he apparently freebases thesauri, makes it hard for me not to get past my view of him as "pompous." I'm willing to be wrong about this, however.

By: potch

potch — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:37:54 -0800

Independent nation ships exist, they're just secret. Where do you think they keep all the flying cars? As much as I agree with the douchery of the idea, the smug tone of the article is a major turn off. It's like an article in a creationist publication- "You guys still haven't created life yet?". "Global warming is real, you say, but it was cold yesterday. What now, science?"

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:41:15 -0800

Awesome--I was about to ask exactly the same question in almost the exact same words. Who cleans the sewage system? ~~ROBOTS~~ MORLOCKS. Duh. I bet the entrepreneurs in the Molucca Strait have been licking their lips at the prospect of this thing.

By: kuujjuarapik

kuujjuarapik — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:45:03 -0800

Who is going to bail these folks out when every pirate in the Malacca Strait and the Red Sea are climbing aboard to help themselves to Mr. Howell's suitcase?

By: zabuni

zabuni — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:46:10 -0800

Wow, a Marxist is ridiculing someone's grandiose political fantasy.

By: kuujjuarapik

kuujjuarapik — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:46:34 -0800

shoulda previewed

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:47:57 -0800

Yeah, I owe you a poke or something.

By: octothorpe

octothorpe — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:52:14 -0800

This seem like something out of a bad Niven/Pournelle novel.

By: exogenous

exogenous — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:53:56 -0800

Pirates? Pshaw, libertarians love guns, and lot's of 'em. Bring it, pirates!

By: KokuRyu

KokuRyu — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:58:43 -0800

The great thing about libertarians is that the readily respond after being poked with a stick.

By: billypilgrim

billypilgrim — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:59:16 -0800

5,800 insane and bloodthirsty splicers, hunting passengers for their sweet, sweet adam. I am Norman Nixon and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow? No, says the man in Washington. It belongs to the poor. No, says the man in the Vatican. It belongs to God. No, says the man in Moscow. It belongs to everyone. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Freedom Ship. (I'd say I play BioShock too much, but I don't think that's possible.)

By: vivelame

vivelame — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:59:35 -0800

exogenous, that's all well and good until the first torpedoes start, err, swimming.

By: grabbingsand

grabbingsand — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:04:03 -0800

From the "take issue" link in the post:

If [Miéville] didn't recognize that Ayn Rand was working within the tradition of messianic and apocalyptic literature, then you [he wasn't] intellectually ready for her.

Defend the Queen!! Defend the Queen!!

By: DU

DU — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:05:09 -0800

By: bruce

bruce — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:06:04 -0800

and of course the irony of libertarians is that they are overwhelmingly highly-educated white men... ok, since we're going down that road, howbout you give us your take on which races are primarily associated with welfare recipients?

By: Jakob

Jakob — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:09:40 -0800

Absalom: China's many things, but I'd never describe him as pompous. He does have a liking for baroque prose, but he's also really rather funny, and is generally a top bloke. Although some ~~libertarian nutjobs~~ people *cough*ESR*cough* might disagree.

By: CynicalKnight

CynicalKnight — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:10:04 -0800

I like how this navel-gazing hedonist-liner's inevitable crumbling and sinking into the vast black depths under the crushing force of an ocean hurricane will be a microcosmic analogy for Mother Nature using Global Warming to brush the human race off it's back.

By: justkevin

justkevin — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:15:03 -0800

China's Editor: I need a 3000 word article on this non-existent floating city. China: No problem. China's Editor: And you must use every word in this "Kaplan SAT Verbal Workbook."

By: Chrischris

Chrischris — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:15:27 -0800

As Mieville points out, defense should be no problem since there's a force of 2000 to "keep order" (and "the captain is the final word"). Authoritarian dictatorships traditionally do not have a big problem with piracy. All it would take is a few WWII era torpedo bombers (bought cheap from some third-world country) and a willingness to use them if a million dollars are not wired to my account every month. Hell, don't call it extortion or piracy, I'm just creating a new market opportunity!

By: DU

DU — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:23:21 -0800

howbout you give us your take on which races are primarily associated with welfare recipients? (True) statistics aren't racist, it's the assignment to some inherent fault that's racist. Any race that was at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder would be on welfare (practically by definition) just like any race that's at the top but feels encroaching change would call it "statism" and try to cash out.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:30:49 -0800

I dunno. Goofiness of giant sea-going Disneylands aside... Miéville got his "rhetorical" ass kicked on that Positive Liberty blog. And yeah. Though I love his writing guys who still embrace Marxism as seriously and golly-gee rosy-eyed as Miéville shouldn't really throw stones.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:37:32 -0800

China's many things, but I'd never describe him as pompous. OH PLEASE. You ever catch an interview or even a picture of the guy? He has become completely pompous. Again. I'm a big fan of his books. Except "Iron Council." Which to me was uniquely a victim of his dull naive politics and growing pomposity.

By: jtron

jtron — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:43:23 -0800

I never thought I'd see MetaFilter calling someone out for using too many big, hard words.

By: jtron

jtron — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:46:26 -0800

Also, I cried at the end of Iron Council. The Scar's still my favorite, though - now there's a proper floating city!

By: Artw

Artw — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:51:22 -0800

Christ, IU was hoping to forget Iron Council. Perdito Street Station is a mess but full of awesome (even if it resorts to a magic plot-solving spider to sort things out), The Scar is just great, and then Iron Council is like a plummet off a cliff. I suspect listening to his own press or an "I am too awesome for editors" moment.

By: Artw

Artw — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:52:01 -0800

(Good article though)

By: Nelson

Nelson — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:52:44 -0800

Two hours and we haven't had a Libertarian show up to defend the Freedom Ship yet? Internet, you have failed me! (And while I want to like Miéville, Perdido Street Station was tedious and poorly planned out.)

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:56:53 -0800

As much as I agree with the douchery of the idea, the smug tone of the article is a major turn off. It's like an article in a creationist publication- "You guys still haven't created life yet?". "Global warming is real, you say, but it was cold yesterday. What now, science?" Your comment is only sensical if one assumes that libertarianism is workable. ...so your comment, then, is nonsensical.

By: Artw

Artw — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:58:10 -0800

Wow, a Marxist is ridiculing someone's grandiose political fantasy. Here's hoping Ron Paul gets in so Libertarianism finally gets it's piles of skulls.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:58:51 -0800

Two hours and we haven't had a Libertarian show up to defend the Freedom Ship yet? Internet, you have failed me! Dios or rockhopper or tadellin or davidmsc will be along shortly. I'm betting on davidmsc, looking to put all the intelligence he drained from people in the FCC thread to good use...

By: languagehat

languagehat — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:03:06 -0800

I never thought I'd see MetaFilter calling someone out for using too many big, hard words. Yeah, that surprised me too. I thought this place was supposed to be the thinking person's website, not another version of "let's pick on brainiac there! Hey brainiac, where'd ya get all them big words??"

By: hydrophonic

hydrophonic — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:04:37 -0800

Good lord, the thing looks like a floating chunk of public housing. Under an airport. With "more than 100 acres of outdoor Park, Recreation, Exercise and Community space," only a fraction of which are open to the sky. There are 33,400 units. Let's assume occupancy of 1.5 per unit, which means a little more than 50,000 people without back yards. So that's two acres of "green" space for 1000 people. That ain't much for a utopia. Of course, it would make sense that libertarians would have a distaste for public space.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:11:21 -0800

Of course, it would make sense that libertarians would have a distaste for public space. So I'm working in a student center computer lab one night, and I'm really hungry and don't have any cash on me to hit the vending machine. That's when I notice, across the hall, some kind of gathering... and they have chips! I head over there to see if I can get some chips, but stop short when I notice the College Libertarian Party sign. ...I don't think asking the Libertarians for a handout is a good idea.

By: absalom

absalom — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:15:22 -0800

I'm not against the use of big words. I'm against the use of pointlessly dense prose. I thought a thinking person's website could distinguish between those two options. But, as smart as well all are, I guess MeFi isn't much for nuance.

By: JaredSeth

JaredSeth — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:29:14 -0800

Though I love his writing guys who still embrace Marxism as seriously and golly-gee rosy-eyed as Miéville shouldn't really throw stones. My idealistic utopia is better than yours?

By: MrPants5000

MrPants5000 — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:42:10 -0800

By: Lentrohamsanin

Lentrohamsanin — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:43:41 -0800

My god, there's a train on that thing as well?

By: chlorus

chlorus — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:45:10 -0800

Groups it's cool to hate on at MetaFilter: Libertarians, Conservatives, Christians, Scientologists, Mormons, Creationists, /b/tards, diggtards, redditors, BoingBoing writers, prescriptivists. Groups it's not cool to hate on at MetaFilter: the flamboyantly homosexual, murderous socialist revolutionaries.

By: chlorus

chlorus — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:46:44 -0800

Oh, I forgot to add fat people to the second list. Let the snarky punning commence.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:49:50 -0800

I'm not against the use of big words. I'm against the use of pointlessly dense prose. I'm against the use of pointlessly dense prose too, but I honestly didn't find that in this case. I thought it was a laff riot. It might be related to what you're used to reading though. If you've spent much time reading social science, this read quite accessibly.

By: Greg Nog

Greg Nog — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:50:38 -0800

A School System that gives the students a chance to take a field trip into a different Country each week for academic purposes or to compete with local schools in numerous sporting events. For example; The Freedom Ship High School Soccer team plays a Paris High School team this week at home and an Italian team next week in Italy, while the Freedom Ship High School Band presents a New Orleans Jazz musical at a concert hall in London. Holy crap, they're trying to make a real-life Breaker High! LIVE THE DREAM, FREEDOM SHIP LIVE IT LIKE THE WIND

By: mwhybark

mwhybark — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:50:57 -0800

Really? Iron Council sucks? I thought it was by far the best of the work. I found the preceding stuff incoherent and muddled to the point of aggravation. Also, the snark in this thread from both viewpoints is amusing.

By: mwhybark

mwhybark — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:54:04 -0800

Also, I think it's interesting that Iron Council's Big Idea is the explicit inversion of the whole Freedom Ship handwaving idea: instead of Randian fools in buttondown shirts avoiding latrine duty, it's robotniks making off with train and track to found the workers' paradise off near Shangri-La.

By: mwhybark

mwhybark — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:54:47 -0800

greatest train wreck in the history of the universe See?

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:08:33 -0800

Groups it's not cool to hate on at MetaFilter: the flamboyantly homosexual, murderous socialist revolutionaries. Hawt! A/Sl/L, pls. I found that his use of Marxist class analysis was actually pretty useful for parsing this thing out. It doesn't necessarily make him a Marxist; it doesn't necessarily mean that he's trying to propose some kind of workers' utopia in opposition to this... grotesque (and never likely to see the light of day) project. Any essay that includes a paragraph like this gets the thumbs up from me:

Claiming a lineage with post-Enlightenment classical liberalism, as well as in some cases with the resoundingly portentous blatherings of Ayn Rand, all of its variants are characterized, to differing degrees, by fervent, even cultish, faith in what is quaintly termed the "free" market, and extreme antipathy to that vaguely conceived bogeyman, "the state," with its regulatory and fiscal powers. Above all, they recast their most banal avarice—the disinclination to pay tax—as a principled blow for political freedom.

By: chlorus

chlorus — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:16:33 -0800

I'm sure Mr. Mieville's avarice is far more cosmopolitan.

By: infinitywaltz

infinitywaltz — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:22:20 -0800

I found that his use of Marxist class analysis was actually pretty useful for parsing this thing out. It doesn't necessarily make him a Marxist... Not in and of itself, no, but he is an avowed Troskyist and a member of the British Socialist Workers Party. I think he's a fascinating guy, myself. I enjoyed this essay, most of his books, and at least some of his political writing.

By: signal

signal — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:43:13 -0800

To all the people whining about 'big words': it's called a 'vocabulary'. Look it up, maybe even try to acquire one.

By: Artw

Artw — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:55:07 -0800

Why acquire a vocabulary when you can accrue agglomerate, aggregate, amalgamate, collocate, compile, cumulate, incorporate or procure one?

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:59:21 -0800

Three Easy Steps to Objectivism: An Illustrated Guide to Becoming a Randian Hero.

By: Pronoiac

Pronoiac — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:31:21 -0800

That's odd - the Miéville tag page returns a "permission forbidden" error. There's only one other page with the Mieville tag, which surprises me. Maybe I should join the backtagging effort? I'd add the Mieville tag to this post, at least.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:44:35 -0800

From the moment this thing sets sail to the inevitable cannibalism that will bring it to an end, it will be the greatest train wreck in the history of the universe. SHIP wreck you mean. And you are right. Also, I think it's interesting that Iron Council's Big Idea is the explicit inversion of the whole Freedom Ship handwaving idea: instead of Randian fools in buttondown shirts avoiding latrine duty, it's robotniks making off with train and track to found the workers' paradise off near Shangri-La. Yes. The irony of that did not escape me. Renamed: Irony Council. Though I can't say I hated it to me Iron Council was very formulaic and the transparent analogy of Vladimir Lenin's train to Petrograd seemed forced. Mostly it was the pace. Which was simply too dull for me. The Scar, however, had real surprises and imagination. I liked it the best.

By: Avenger

Avenger — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 15:11:14 -0800

Metafilter: the flamboyantly homosexual, murderous socialist revolutionaries. and damn proud of it, too!

By: pandaharma

pandaharma — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:14:13 -0800

I guess I don't understand why there would be a problem with the Freedom Ship. If a bunch of people want to build an oversized boat and sail around while using drugs that are illegal in most countries and thumbing their noses at the powers-that-be, so what? Not how I'd spend my money but I wouldn't have a problem with someone else throwing away their savings. Apparently the project was ill-conceived and terribly mismanaged. And this proves what? Beyond the fact that it was ill-conceived and terribly mismanaged, I guess it proves that some libertarians are a bit gullible, just like the gullibility you'll find in any political movement. And I don't understand the knee-jerk rejection of libertarians here. While I can understand a certain level of dislike, I don't understand the complete rejection of the concept. For the Americans in the audience, I would think the last six years have given a clear example as to why government can't be trusted and why its powers should be constrained and not wildly expanded.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:57:48 -0800

Well, for a start, that thing looks about as realistically seaworthy as a cardboard box.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:18:05 -0800

I'd love to see them build this thing just from an engineering point of view. How they plan to handle Hurricanes and Rogue Waves should be interesting.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:25:33 -0800

If there is no demand for Hurricanes and Rogue Waves, the market will not provide Hurricanes and Rogue Waves.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:27:35 -0800

And I don't understand the knee-jerk rejection of libertarians here. While I can understand a certain level of dislike, I don't understand the complete rejection of the concept. Because Libertarianism is stupid to begin with, it doesn't fucking work even theoretically, and, um, it's fucking stupid to begin with? More seriously, though, have an outstanding essay on the total failure of Libertarianism to be anything but a childish fantasy: Mark Rosenfelder explains why Libertarianism is stupid.

By: Bookhouse

Bookhouse — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:01:23 -0800

Every single one of use should get down on our knees and pray that this thing finally gets built, because there is nothing on earth with more potential for awesome weirdness than the Freedom Ship. From the moment this thing sets sail to the inevitable cannibalism that will bring it to an end, it will be the greatest train wreck in the history of the universe. This is exactly why I'm a (small "l") libertarian -- I'm totally in favor of anything that anyone wants to do with their life to wreck it, especially if I get amused by it.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:10:14 -0800

Pope Guilty writes "More seriously, though, have an outstanding essay on the total failure of Libertarianism to be anything but a childish fantasy: Mark Rosenfelder explains why Libertarianism is stupid." It's hard to take someone seriously who says things like, "Libertarians usually claim to oppose slavery... but that's awfully easy to say on this side of Civil War and the civil rights movement. The slaveowners thought they were defending their sacred rights to property and self-government." It's like people create these cartoon characters in their heads to represent the ideologies they don't like, and even when there are valid arguments to be made, they get distracted by the cartoons. I'm sure there are similar screeds as to why environmentalism won't work, peppered with misinformation and logically flawed argumentation, but maybe there is something to the idea that environmentalism informs the debate. Perhaps so does libertarianism. The schools of thought involved aren't sacred - there are such people as left libertarians and green conservatives. And maybe people like Ralph Nader and Ron Paul have no real hope of ever getting elected president, maybe it's better that they're there than the other way around.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:40:04 -0800

I would think the last six years have given a clear example as to why ~~government~~ Republicans can't be trusted This has been another edition of FTFY. I don't understand the complete rejection of the concept As a "left-libertarian" (polite word for democratic socialist more like), my principal beef my libertarians is that their philosophy violates that Social Justice thing about what kind of society one would want to be "reborn" into given just average attributes (or worse) of intelligence, family wealth, etc. Right libertarians just fail to appreciate the feedback factor that inherited wealth, and its increasingly parasitical drag the rentiers exert against social and economic progress, and the importance of extra-market forces (ie "Government") to maintain equality of opportunity for all members of the society. Libertarians like to point the finger towards the more spectacular failures of state socialism, but in the American experience the greatest harm to Americans has come from their ideological brethren, the rentiers of the Gilded Age.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:44:46 -0800

peppered with misinformation and logically flawed argumentation Actually forcing rentiers and libertarians to admit that "property rights" are not necessarily morally absolute, by bringing up the historical example of the legality of chattel slavery in this country, is a logically-sound debate tactic, since most flavors of libertarianism are founded on just this moral quicksand of absolute property rights. cf Royal libertarianisn.

By: Avenger

Avenger — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:55:02 -0800

I wonder....if this thing ever gets built and I was, say, a billionaire with a flare for the dramatic, could I buy half the apartments in this thing and fill them all with cement? Sure, the boat would sink, but on what grounds would the supposedly non-existent "government" possibly stop me?

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:12:33 -0800

non-existent "government" possibly stop me? libertarians have a well-developed idea of economic harm and punishment, Avenger. They just object to having these things subject to democratic oversight, prefering market mechanisms (ie. he who has the gold makes the rules) and/or contract law (ie. he who has the gold makes the rules) instead.

By: dirigibleman

dirigibleman — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:54:45 -0800

I disagree with the concept that states should be allowed to decide on whether or not people should be bought and sold as property. This is the main (but not only) reason I am not a libertarian.

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:04:19 -0800

I'm sure there are similar screeds as to why environmentalism won't work, peppered with misinformation and logically flawed argumentation... Since you're sure, you should have no problem coming up with links to some. Personally, I doubt that anyone is saying "environmentalism won't work," and it seems kind of meaningless in any case when discussing the limits of government. The problem I see in all the Llibertarian views I've encountered is that they ignore or wave away the very real problems that prompted much of what they see as excessive government. Allow the market total freedom, and you will see a resurgence of things like sweatshops and child labor. Maybe that's OK with some people. Those people are assholes.