Six Great Apples
November 12, 2007 7:04 AM   Subscribe

Think the Osmond Brothers didn't rock? Think again. "In spite of their squeaky clean image, the Osmonds had a soulful, sometimes raucous sound which was a precursor of the power pop of later years." Color my preconceived notions shattered.
posted by KevinSkomsvold (89 comments total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
Wow, I've seen enough. How about: "In spite of their squeaky clean image, the Osmonds would, on occassion, poorly imitate the more successful bands of the time, bands who were known for their soulful, sometimes raucous sound."
posted by billysumday at 7:13 AM on November 12, 2007


Whoa! Color me impressed.

On a certain level, this shouldn't be too suprising. They were young guys in the '70's, they probably were into a lot of the same music their peers were. Nothing earthshaking, but they look like they were having a blast. Good for them.

Still, they were no DeFranco Family....
posted by jonmc at 7:15 AM on November 12, 2007


Excuse me sir. This Cream is sour.
posted by MotorNeuron at 7:23 AM on November 12, 2007


poorly imitate the more successful bands of the time,

like I said, nothing great, but it was nowhere near as bad as it could've been. Or are you too afraid of seeming uncool to admit that? Trust me, bubblegum pop had it's moments of* absolute transcendence. This stuff has aged a lot better than many of the more 'serious' products of it's time. You could make a strong argument that this group is nothing but bubblegum soul. And much of punk (the Ramones, Dictators, and Blondie come to mind) would be inconcievable without this stuff. For further elucidation, read this, edited by a mefite
posted by jonmc at 7:29 AM on November 12, 2007 [4 favorites]


*me proclaiming my fandom proudly
posted by jonmc at 7:30 AM on November 12, 2007


"poorly imitate"?

I guess since they were doing a Santana song that would be fair but "poor?" Given the times where they didn't have the use of in-ear monitors, backing tracks and vocal harmonizer doodads, I'd say they busted a hell of a groove. Oh well, ear of the beholder and all that.

Ha, Jonmc! That song brings back some great memories. I'm not sure how well they fared in a live setting but they could bring it, musically.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 7:34 AM on November 12, 2007


Just to elaborate a bit more, I never was an Osmond fan. My memories of them have mostly to do with hearing "Down By The Lazy River" and "One Bad Apple" on the radio and seeing them on T.V. mostly lip-synching. To me, today, those are great songs but at the time they were considered "bubblegum" pop and not to be taken too seriously. I never really gave them a second thought in my later years. To be honest, I had no clue as to their musical abilities and these two videos impressed the shit out of me.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 7:40 AM on November 12, 2007


Who can forget Crazy Horses?

Some people thought it was a reference to heroin. Those bad boy Osmonds!
posted by The Deej at 7:41 AM on November 12, 2007


That was good, but I've always had a thing for Marie.
posted by rockhopper at 7:43 AM on November 12, 2007


Or are you too afraid of seeming uncool to admit that?

Nah, I like lots of music that's incredibly cheesy. But one or two pseudo-psychedelic songs do not an edgy band make. If anything, I smell the stench of over-zealous coolness in the idea that everything you thought was lame was really badass!
posted by billysumday at 7:43 AM on November 12, 2007


So, there's Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel, Jr., Mary Marvel, Uncle Marvel, Hoppy the Marvel Bunny, the Lieutenant Marvels, and their Mormon cousins, the Osmonds. Good to know!

Oh, and Elvis.
posted by kimota at 7:46 AM on November 12, 2007


But one or two pseudo-psychedelic songs do not an edgy band make. If anything, I smell the stench of over-zealous coolness in the idea that everything you thought was lame was really badass!

edgy? badass? Nah, just fun.
posted by jonmc at 7:50 AM on November 12, 2007


I had Crazy Horses on 45. However, had youtube been around and I'd seen him doing the funky chicken while singing I probably would have hidden it out of embarrassment. STOP DANCING WHITE DUDE!
posted by dobbs at 7:58 AM on November 12, 2007


I have never ceased masturbating to photos of Marie Osmond...and even this morning.....
posted by Postroad at 8:00 AM on November 12, 2007


I wasn't into the Osmonds all that much, but I sure respect their musical and show-biz chops -- they were famous in show biz as the "One-Take" Osmonds for being so consistently good at performing. Probably the earliest Jay Leno joke that stuck with me was his shtick about whether there was an untalented Osmond sibling kept hidden away somewhere -- he probably didn't know about George, Jr. and Tom, who were born deaf and didn't record with Marie and the other brothers.

Come to think of it, "The Deaf Osmonds" would've made a nicely quirky band name.
posted by pax digita at 8:00 AM on November 12, 2007


More, mon, more!
posted by googly at 8:01 AM on November 12, 2007


They're no Collins Kids, but they'll do.
posted by Reggie Digest at 8:07 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]


"Nothing great but nowhere near as bad as it could have been" is not that great a compliment.

There are times when bubblegum transcends, like with The Beach Boys. The Osmonds were talented, true enough. But they didn't come close to transcending. Fun, but that's about it.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:16 AM on November 12, 2007


i still think the osmond brothers didn't rock. they popped. and they popped very very well.
posted by msconduct at 8:19 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]


BUBBLEGUM? BEACH BOYS?

GET OUT OF THIS THREAD NOW.
posted by quonsar at 8:21 AM on November 12, 2007 [5 favorites]


The Osmonds rocking it out. Not too shabby. Kind of reminds me of the first time I heard Cabinessence by The Beach Boys and realized that these guys were pretty good. I didn't become a fan but I developed some respect for them.
posted by hojoki at 8:21 AM on November 12, 2007


There are times when bubblegum transcends, like with The Beach Boys

I love the Beach Boys, but they aren't remotely bubblegum. You may need to read scram's book, dude.
posted by jonmc at 8:23 AM on November 12, 2007


Well, no, the Beach Boys were bubblegum, and then they weren't for a year or two, and then they were again for forty more years. But still.
posted by Reggie Digest at 8:35 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]


Speaking of the Osmonds: you may enjoy Death in Winnepeg, a not exactly entirely factual account by director Guy Maddin about being on the set of a TV movie about the family.

Merrill and Wayne Osmond slump down depressed in their red-sequin-appliqué jumbo-spandex lobster suits while buoyant brother Donny touches his toes for no other reason than to thrust out the saddle-cut rear of his gaudy pantaloons, and in so doing, inflames an already sorry sibling situation. More later.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 8:36 AM on November 12, 2007


So, there's Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel, Jr., Mary Marvel, Uncle Marvel, Hoppy the Marvel Bunny, the Lieutenant Marvels...

posted by kimota at 10:46 AM on November 12 [+] [!]


It's a little dissonant seeing all that Capt. Marvel and then "posted by kimota". Was shazam taken?

posted by Lentrohamsanin at 8:39 AM on November 12, 2007


I like my bubblegum with razor blades in it.
posted by Myeral at 8:40 AM on November 12, 2007


Well, no, the Beach Boys were bubblegum, and then they weren't for a year or two, and then they were again for forty more years. But still.

you simply don't know what you are talking about. or, you don't know that bublegum is an actual genre, as opposed to a scornful putdown of teenage pop in general. but you probably just don't know what you are talking about.
posted by quonsar at 8:42 AM on November 12, 2007


Go Home Productions did a nice mash-up of Crazy Horses with The Prodigy's Baby's Got a Temper. Inevitably, there's a YouTube version.
posted by senor biggles at 8:49 AM on November 12, 2007


Crazy Horses is one of those songs I like to break out every once in awhile and ask people, "Hey, you know who this is?" No one ever gets it.

Thanks for the post, KevinSkomsvold.

Oh, and I've read the Bubblegum book by scram. It's great. I'd argue that the Beach Boys are tangentially related (and they and the Sunshine Pop era, are discussed in the book). The vocal melodies on a lot of the bubblegum material owe quite a bit to Brian Wilson as well as to producers like Gary Usher and Curt Boettcher who were churning out albums under faked band names all the time.
posted by sleepy pete at 8:49 AM on November 12, 2007


And poor David Cassidy was stuck in the Partridge Family with his stepmother when he REALLY wanted to rock like Bowie. Or Simon LeBon for that matter.

Oh well... I guess in some real way, we're all prisoners.
posted by miss lynnster at 8:59 AM on November 12, 2007



They gave me some breadcrumbs
And a little glass of water
And they're out there eating steak
(Smells so good)
I ripped up my wardrobe
And I'm growing a beard
Oh when will they let me come out?


That's breadcrumbs, not bubblegum.
posted by breezeway at 9:00 AM on November 12, 2007


Well, no, the Beach Boys were bubblegum, and then they weren't for a year or two, and then they were again for forty more years. But still.

Actually, I'd argue that the supposed 'bubblegum' (a term considered an insult by many but not by me) of 'I Get Around,' 'Don't Worry Baby' 'California Girls' and 'Sail On Sailor' is far more artistically succesful than the half-baked wankery of Smile.
posted by jonmc at 9:08 AM on November 12, 2007


I want to comment in this thread but am too overcome at the sight of the 17-year-old Donny doing Crazy Horses to be able to think straight.

*still can't believe he didn't marry me*
posted by essexjan at 9:11 AM on November 12, 2007


(Having looked it up, okay, no, technically the Beach Boys weren't bubblegum. They were, however, effectively bubblegum until Pet Sounds. Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

That drum solo in "Everybody's Everything & Free" is pretty nuts, especially when you consider it's caffeine-free. He gets docked a few points, though, for dropping a stick -- twice.
posted by Reggie Digest at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2007


They were, however, effectively bubblegum until Pet Sounds.

Actually, you're still wrong. Most of the British Invasion acts considered them to be peers.
posted by jonmc at 9:43 AM on November 12, 2007


George Osmond
posted by hortense at 9:44 AM on November 12, 2007


Most of the British Invasion acts considered them to be peers.

And Pet Sounds was just as much a pop record as the rest of their ouvre. Like the British Invasion itself, they were simply reflecting changing tastes in pop music.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2007


Marie was a little country. Donny was a little rock n roll. They were all pop. They made a lot of people happy. They were very entertaining. The original post's links show some talented young men having a great time and performing for a crowd they adored who adored them. They were very good at what they did, which is why they were able to grab that tiger by the tail. I got nothing bad to say about them. I was four in 1972. When I was four they were awesome. So was the Jackson Five. So were The Carpenters. I was all starry-eyed back then.

Did The Osmonds ever rock? There is no endgame on debates such as these, and Wikipedia surely is no final arbiter, but I find it noteworthy to point out that nowhere in the description of rock n roll are the Osmonds ever mentioned.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:00 AM on November 12, 2007


And personally, I think that the Osmonds never got as much cred as they could have done because they were always measured against the Jackson 5 and found seriously wanting by comparison.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:02 AM on November 12, 2007


When I was four they were awesome. So was the Jackson Five.

Oh for that innocent era when Michael was a child, as opposed to a child molester.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:04 AM on November 12, 2007


Totally rocking album by The Osmonds, thy name is The Plan. I've got this bad mama jama on vinyl and oh do I love it.
posted by dhammond at 10:09 AM on November 12, 2007


jonmc writes "I love the Beach Boys, but they aren't remotely bubblegum. You may need to read scram's book, dude."

I need to read a book in order to understand what's bubblegum?

I feel like I just wandered into the dankest hipster lounge.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:13 AM on November 12, 2007


I need to read a book in order to understand what's bubblegum?

If you think the Beach Boys are bubblegum, yes. Don't worry, there's no shame in being a remedial student.
posted by jonmc at 10:23 AM on November 12, 2007


I feel like I just wandered into the dankest hipster lounge.

and bumped into yourself.
posted by quonsar at 10:29 AM on November 12, 2007


quonsar writes "and bumped into yourself."

What's up with the hostility?

You think I'm a hipster? That's pretty funny.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:32 AM on November 12, 2007


jonmc writes "If you think the Beach Boys are bubblegum, yes. Don't worry, there's no shame in being a remedial student."

Sounds like a good book.

Why so nasty?
posted by krinklyfig at 10:37 AM on November 12, 2007


Most of the British Invasion acts considered them to be peers.

So what? I seem to recall the British Invasion being ushered in by a couple thousand screaming eleven-year-old girls. Commercial juvenile pablum is commercial juvenile pablum, whether the songs are about lollipops or hot rods or surf boards or one bad apple.
posted by Reggie Digest at 10:44 AM on November 12, 2007


Commercial juvenile pablum is commercial juvenile pablum, whether the songs are about lollipops or hot rods or surf boards or one bad apple.

What are you, some kind of Yes fan or something? Someone who believes that popular music is only 'important' or 'art' when it's self-consciously 'edgy' or virtuostic? Go listen to Emerson Lake & Palmer or Radiohead, then. Successful 'pablum' is far more satisfying than failed pretensions to 'seriousness.' 'Louie Louie' will outlast 'Roundabout,' and 'I Get Around' will outlast 'How Soon Is Now?'
posted by jonmc at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2007


And not one mention of The Plan? I just listened to it for the guys at CousinsVinyl.com (though they failed to also listen to it, which was the idea behind having a concept album listening club, sheesh). It's a crazy Mormon eschatology that vacillates between cheeze and rockin'.
posted by klangklangston at 10:54 AM on November 12, 2007


jonmc writes "Successful 'pablum' is far more satisfying than failed pretensions to 'seriousness.' 'Louie Louie' will outlast 'Roundabout,'"

But will it outlast Beethoven or Mozart?
posted by krinklyfig at 11:08 AM on November 12, 2007


Roll over Beethoven, tell Tchaikovsky the News....
posted by jonmc at 11:23 AM on November 12, 2007


This thread needs to set its controls for the heart of the sun.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:24 AM on November 12, 2007


'Louie Louie' will outlast 'Roundabout,'

There are times when prog rock transcends, like with The Kingsmen.
posted by quonsar at 11:39 AM on November 12, 2007


Yes, but that isn't one of them, q. I'd nominate '20th Century Schizoid Man' or 'Hymn 49' before anything by Yes.
posted by jonmc at 11:46 AM on November 12, 2007


And not one mention of The Plan?

Hey Now! Too bad it's out of print.
posted by dhammond at 11:55 AM on November 12, 2007


Doing Yo-Yo (by Joe South) on the Flip Wilson Show.

Also in 1964 on the Andy Williams Show. The little girl is Marie.
posted by pracowity at 12:08 PM on November 12, 2007


jonmc, I never said pablum was straight up shitty, and I certainly didn't say it wouldn't last. I said it was pablum, because, as much as I love it, it is. If you're honestly arguing that "My Little Honda" has more artistic merit than, well, anything, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

For the record, I am indeed a Yes fan, and a Smiths fan. I'm also a Beach Boys fan, and, as you may or may not have deduced from the username, an Archies fan. So whatever you're getting at, get at it already.


I once got Donny Osmond's autograph in the early '90s at the SkyDome in Toronto. He was singing the national anthems at a Blue Jays game, and my dad knew the Jays' lawyers or something, so we ended up sitting in the same box as Donny and a couple of his kids. He cordially signed my napkin. Also, a friend of mine met him at an LDS church in Edmonton while he was in town with Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.
posted by Reggie Digest at 12:08 PM on November 12, 2007


Successful 'pablum' is far more satisfying than failed pretensions to 'seriousness.'

Okay, now that's just borderline retarded, that is. "Successful" X is naturally going to be more satisfying than "failed" Y; such is the nature of success and failure.
posted by Reggie Digest at 12:13 PM on November 12, 2007


I'm also a Beach Boys fan, and, as you may or may not have deduced from the username, an Archies fan. So whatever you're getting at, get at it already.

Calling their best work 'pablum,' is an odd way of expressing it.

If you're honestly arguing that "My Little Honda" has more artistic merit than, well, anything, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

I never mentioned 'My Little Honda.' But I would argue that 'I Get Around' 'California Girls' 'Don't Worry Baby' and 'Wouldn't It be Nice' have more artistic merit than anything by Yes or the Smiths. I'm just fed up with this idea that rock and roll has to cater to some stuffed shirt notion of refinement to be considered art. Report here for the real good stuff.
posted by jonmc at 12:18 PM on November 12, 2007


jonmc writes "But I would argue that 'I Get Around' 'California Girls' 'Don't Worry Baby' and 'Wouldn't It be Nice' have more artistic merit than anything by Yes or the Smiths. I'm just fed up with this idea that rock and roll has to cater to some stuffed shirt notion of refinement to be considered art."

Why does it have to be the other way? Why can't popular music be more than 1-4-5 progressions and surfer songs? I'd suggest that it's a matter of taste, not objective merit, which is just about impossible to gauge anyway.
posted by krinklyfig at 12:28 PM on November 12, 2007


Hey, hey, guys! Can we get back to talking about Donny?
posted by essexjan at 12:30 PM on November 12, 2007


Thanks for the memories, Pracowity. I remember watching that ep of Flip Wilson when it originally aired, because "Yo-Yo" was my favorite song at the time. Flash forward 20-some years, and this episode is rerun on TVLand. Mr. Adams (who is eight years younger than I) watches it with me, and his only comment is: "I always thought that you danced weird, but apparently that's how everyone danced in the 70s."

Speaking of Os Rock Chops, check out their tribute to Led Zeppelin's "The Immigrant Song," "Hold Her Tight."
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:32 PM on November 12, 2007


Why does it have to be the other way? Why can't popular music be more than 1-4-5 progressions and surfer songs?

Well, sure. But if you go too far in the experimental arty direction you lose the raw, primal energy and fun that makes it rock and roll in the first place(and quite frankly is where my rocks come off, musically speaking), so it's a balancing act, and most of what's described as art-rock tips the balance way too far in the 'art' direction, IMHO.

I'd suggest that it's a matter of taste

Obviously.

For the record, the reason me and quonsar were breaking your balls is that traditionally the definition of bubblegum has been prepackaged studio groups aimed conciously at preteens made up of studio musicians with tunes written by hired gun songwriters. That's what scram talks about in her book. The Beach Boys, whatever else you might want to say about them, are not bubblegum by that definition.
posted by jonmc at 12:36 PM on November 12, 2007


In the Ohio State Fair clip, I was surprised to see them wearing the secret holy underwear on the outside. Bold move.

I find this whole thread enormously ironic, in that for years "Crazy Horses" has been the secret test song whose proper identification permits admittance to my dank hipster lounge, wherein we smoke fatalistically, sip absinthe, and fussily adjust our black berets.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:38 PM on November 12, 2007


I'm just fed up with this idea that rock and roll has to cater to some stuffed shirt notion of refinement to be considered art.

Who says it does? All I'm saying is that the first five years of the Beach Boys could be described by some as bubblegum. Full stop. Maybe it's not capital-B Bubblegum in the first degree, but it's somewhat bubblegum nonetheless. It lacks any real substance, and it caters (or did, in its day) primarily to a young audience. Bland food for dumb children: Pablum. It's fun, and I like to listen to it, but ultimately it doesn't have much to say beyond "I like girls" and "I like cars" and "I like surfing." Admittedly, that's kind of the beauty of it.
posted by Reggie Digest at 12:48 PM on November 12, 2007


(I'm done now)
posted by Reggie Digest at 12:48 PM on November 12, 2007


"Hey Now! Too bad it's out of print."

Yeah, but you can get it EVERYWHERE. The Cousins Vinyl guys were complaining because they had, like, seven copies kickin' around.
posted by klangklangston at 12:52 PM on November 12, 2007


Also, just for psuedo-bubblegum geekery, and to get back on the thread at hand rather than another 45 comment long rant about art/rock and artrock, Redd Kross did a cover of "Crazy Horses" under the band name Revolution 409. You can find it on SST's Duck and Cover.
posted by sleepy pete at 12:53 PM on November 12, 2007


The original post's links show some talented young men having a great time and performing for a crowd they adored who adored them. They were very good at what they did...

That seems to sum it up best. Maybe Jay Osmond was no Michael Shrieve, but he certainly didn't embarrass himself in that video. Thanks for the links, Kevin; I never would have guessed.

That Santana tune reminded me that many years ago I used to work in the basement of the PA State Library with this other young guy who spent as much time as he could sleeping on the job. One time he explained to me that he was always tired because he played trumpet with this soul band that was on the edge of hitting it big, and most nights they were on the road all over the Northeast. They had a minor hit at the time called Karate; I bought a copy from him, and was surprised, years later, when Santana stole (?) the song, changed the words around, and bingo, it was “Everybody’s Everything.”

Couldn't remember the specifics — this was back literally 40 years ago, and I'm away from home at the moment, where I can't dig the 45 out of a box. But the Internet never forgets: The song. The group. The comparison.

p.s. From hortense's link: George Osmond also had 55 grandchildren and 48 great-grandchildren.

Impressive enough that the original Osmonds are still going on tour all these years later. Looks like we could be blessed/cursed with their musical descendants for many years to come.
posted by LeLiLo at 12:58 PM on November 12, 2007


It lacks any real substance

What?

'Don't Worry Baby' expresses male insecurity better than just about anything else in popular music and 'I Get Around' does the same for the exhilariting feeling of a night out. And this is to say nothing of the sheer aural pleasure of the harmonies, guitar riffs and hooks. Just because it's not self-conciously 'literary' or 'virtuostic' dosen't mean it has less merit.

Admittedly, that's kind of the beauty of it

It's only rock and roll, but you like it. If you like it, if it moves you, if it gives you pleasure, don't apologize for that, embrace it.
posted by jonmc at 1:00 PM on November 12, 2007


"If you're honestly arguing that "My Little Honda" has more artistic merit than, well, anything, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree."

Are you kidding? "My Little Honda" is better than most of Pet Sounds, which is mostly sloops and filler.

"Okay, now that's just borderline retarded, that is. "Successful" X is naturally going to be more satisfying than "failed" Y; such is the nature of success and failure."

No. Wildman Fischer's "The Taster" is infinitely more satisfying than the Big Bopper's "The Twist," because its deranged worldview is tied with a cool riff and it pulls you in. I'm not arguing the converse—that failures are always more satisfying—but rather that there is no predictive value in successful versus failed unless you're totally tautological about it.

"All I'm saying is that the first five years of the Beach Boys could be described by some as bubblegum. Full stop. Maybe it's not capital-B Bubblegum in the first degree, but it's somewhat bubblegum nonetheless. It lacks any real substance, and it caters (or did, in its day) primarily to a young audience. Bland food for dumb children: Pablum. It's fun, and I like to listen to it, but ultimately it doesn't have much to say beyond "I like girls" and "I like cars" and "I like surfing." Admittedly, that's kind of the beauty of it."

Bubblegum's a too-broad word here, frankly. But describing "I like girls" as bland? C'mon, it's in the way they said it—those songs are exciting and vital. Corn on the cob is about as simple as food gets, but it's not pablum—it's the best part of summer (aside from girls).

Jonmc's always gonna be swingin' that hammer against pretension, but here you're a nail.
posted by klangklangston at 1:01 PM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]


jonmc writes "Well, sure. But if you go too far in the experimental arty direction you lose the raw, primal energy and fun that makes it rock and roll in the first place(and quite frankly is where my rocks come off, musically speaking), so it's a balancing act, and most of what's described as art-rock tips the balance way too far in the 'art' direction, IMHO."

I can understand, but not everyone wants the same thing from their music. Raw, primal energy is great, but it's not all there is.

I remember an interview with Frank Zappa wherein he talks about his approach to music. Essentially, he said that, if he were born 200 years prior, he'd be composing for orchestras. However, since the only thing most orchestras will play is music by long-dead guys, and since the rock band is (was) the popular arrangement of our day, that's what he wrote for. Maybe Zappa is too serious for you, I don't know, but he was hugely influential to me. He demonstrated to me that you could play any style, any way you wanted, with the right band.

FWIW, I used to be way into art/prog rock, but I can't remember the last time I sat down and listened to any album from that era. It was a bit pretentious, that's true, but I don't regret my time listening. One of the best shows I saw back in the '80s was Yes for their Big Generator tour. I know, I know, you hate Yes, but it was a blast. And I also saw Jethro Tull and loved them.

"For the record, the reason me and quonsar were breaking your balls is that traditionally the definition of bubblegum has been prepackaged studio groups aimed conciously at preteens made up of studio musicians with tunes written by hired gun songwriters. That's what scram talks about in her book. The Beach Boys, whatever else you might want to say about them, are not bubblegum by that definition."

Well, no, not by that definition. I'm not sure that can be the only definition. I know of some modern groups who consciously go for that style without the studio trappings. If a band plays what they consider to be bubblegum, but they're not hired guns and they're not necessarily writing for pre-teens, what is it?
posted by krinklyfig at 1:01 PM on November 12, 2007


And I also saw Jethro Tull and loved them.

Hey, 'Hymn 49' is in my favorite 300, remember?

Maybe Zappa is too serious for you, I don't know,

Zappa is in the same list (and he loved stuff like Don & Dewey and Chuck Berry as much as classical music and he always maintained a sense of humor.) and is one of my cultural heroes.

Well, no, not by that definition. I'm not sure that can be the only definition. I know of some modern groups who consciously go for that style without the studio trappings. If a band plays what they consider to be bubblegum, but they're not hired guns and they're not necessarily writing for pre-teens, what is it?

That's a tangent. But the Beach Boys never saw themselves that way, nor did their audience, so putting them in that category set a few of us off.
posted by jonmc at 1:11 PM on November 12, 2007


jonmc writes "That's a tangent. But the Beach Boys never saw themselves that way, nor did their audience, so putting them in that category set a few of us off."

I always thought of the Beach Boys as taking bubblegum to artistic heights. No, they weren't hired guns and they didn't write for pre-teens, but seemed like they took that sound and ran with it. But I don't really want to get hung up on labels. It's honestly not that important.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:27 PM on November 12, 2007


shit, I was too late.
posted by sleepy pete at 1:29 PM on November 12, 2007


For the record, the reason me and quonsar were breaking your balls is that traditionally the definition of bubblegum has been prepackaged studio groups aimed conciously at preteens made up of studio musicians with tunes written by hired gun songwriters. That's what scram talks about in her book. The Beach Boys, whatever else you might want to say about them, are not bubblegum by that definition.

That's a limited way to view any music, though, defining it only by how it was created and for what audience it was intended. That perspective is an important part of contextualizing any given style of music, but it's the music itself, how the sounds are organized, etc., that defines it.

Considering the music itself, there is far more that makes the Beach Boys similar to any bubblegum pop--as you define it--than differentiates it. Splitting the small differences among the sounds themselves, esp. as vehemently as has been done above, seems silly and pretentious to me.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:03 PM on November 12, 2007


The musical backing on "Pet Sounds" is provided by hired guns, Glen Campbell most famously among them. The Wondermints people are probably more of an actual band.
posted by raysmj at 2:12 PM on November 12, 2007


Because bubblegum mines the simplicity of other forms doesn't mean those forms are bubblegum: Today! and Summer Days (and Summer Nights) are rock albums. The brightness and harmony and bounce may have spawned and influenced bubblegum pop, but if anything that influence seals the Boys as bubblegum progenitors, the way The Beatles or The Zombies are forefathers of power pop, or at least of The Raspberries and Jellyfish, respectively.

It's interesting the way folks mix Their Tastes with What They Know to be True, and get all bent out of shape when they find there's more to listen to and learn than they ever imagined. Specialized knowledge is not in and of itself insulting, nor is ignorance.
posted by breezeway at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2007


Totally rocking album by The Osmonds, thy name is The Plan. I've got this bad mama jama on vinyl and oh do I love it.

I heard there was really pretentious record dealer who sold a lot private press psychedelic albums (typically 500 or less known copies), who got totally punk'd when another collector started playing an acetate of the Osmonds "The Plan." He had the dealer convinced that he had discovered some unknown pop-psych-garage band, before he let on that it was actually the Osmonds.
posted by jonp72 at 2:41 PM on November 12, 2007


They're no Collins Kids, but they'll do.

...those Collins kids kicked my ass. Fuck the Osmonds.
posted by greenskpr at 2:47 PM on November 12, 2007


By the way, nobody has yet mentioned the similarity between the opening riffs of the Osmonds' "Hold Her Tight" and Led Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song."
posted by jonp72 at 3:09 PM on November 12, 2007


By the way, nobody has yet mentioned the similarity between the opening riffs of the Osmonds' "Hold Her Tight" and Led Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song."

.
posted by Wolof at 4:29 PM on November 12, 2007


All I'm saying is that the first five years of the Beach Boys could be described by some as bubblegum. Full stop.

only by people who don't understand the demographics

bubblegum was for jr high school and younger, mostly girls

pop/rock was for high school and older - the early beach boys, with their celebrations of surfing, cars and high schools, are clearly aiming at high school students - and if you think the beach boys wouldn't have sneaked beer into a party or tried to get lucky, just like their fans, you aren't getting them

now, at the risk of great mockery, i present to you, the most transcendent of ALL the bubblegum groups - the cowsills

the rain, the park and other things

indian lake (note the pre- "lucky man" synth intro)

we can fly

hair

singing "monday monday" and the old gospel song "children go where i send thee" with johnny cash
posted by pyramid termite at 5:26 PM on November 12, 2007


I almost came back in here to argue point blank that The Osmonds were never rock n roll, and also that The Beach Boys were never rock n roll. However, with regards to The Beach Boys, WikiPedia has failed me. It cites them as "an American rock and roll band." I'd like to disagree and say they were more of a pop rock or perhaps at times psychedelic rock band, but that's just splitting hairs really.

As for the Osmonds?

I wanted to argue that they are an American pop rock group. They are not rock n roll, musically speaking. However...

What is rock n roll ultimately? When you investigate the history of the phrase, and the music that came out of the 50s, 60s, and 70s, rock n roll is really all about fucking. Not just the physical act of fucking, but making love with a passion and a fire that can move mountains and stand the test of time. Rock n roll is about perpetuating humanity, with every fiber of the human spirit, and having fun while doing it.

I just saw Oprah and The Osmonds. George and Olive Osmond gave birth to seven boys and a girl. Those eight children have between them today, over one hundred and twenty children and grandchildren. Yes. Even Donny Osmond is a grandfather.

I argue, with quite a bit of legitimate proof backing me up, that the Osmond Family knows more about how to rock n roll than any other popular musicians or artists of the past fifty years who claims to be rock n roll. So even tho I don't personally believe they should be considered rock n roll, I have to objectively bow to the immense legitimate proof to the contrary.

If that doesn't end this argument, nothing will.
posted by ZachsMind at 5:37 PM on November 12, 2007


I argue, with quite a bit of legitimate proof backing me up, that the Osmond Family knows more about how to rock n roll than any other popular musicians or artists of the past fifty years

fela kuti did better - In 1978 Fela married twenty seven women, many of whom were his dancers and singers to mark the anniversary of the attack on the Kalakuta Republic.
posted by pyramid termite at 5:50 PM on November 12, 2007


Donny is a grandfather....

:-O
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 6:04 PM on November 12, 2007


By the way, Foreign Novelty Smash by the Credibility Gap is a great Osmonds spoof featuring David Lander & Harry Shearer of Spinal Tap singing nonsense lyrics in German.
posted by jonp72 at 7:43 PM on November 12, 2007


More of ye Jackson 5, I would have thought. (Check out the ABC quote in the verse bass line.)

Not that the Osmonds weren't a terribly derivative version of same.
posted by Wolof at 2:18 AM on November 13, 2007


That definitely is the (white) Jackson 5. Not that this comment isn't a terribly derivative version of Wolof's.
posted by LeLiLo at 7:14 AM on November 13, 2007


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