ten second rule...
November 23, 2007 1:24 PM Subscribe
Raven and Jason live together in Vancouver's downtown East Side.
A touching short documentary about life on the edge.
it's really too bad, then darth_tedious, as it's an amazing, but yes, hard to watch, story.
posted by Medieval Maven at 1:50 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by Medieval Maven at 1:50 PM on November 23, 2007
Yes, he's taking care of a woman who's nothing but a shell, but he's also spending his day watching people drop quarters in his cup, having pizza and pop for lunch, smoking cigarettes and crack, shooting smack and not cleaning an apartment.
posted by davebush at 2:03 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by davebush at 2:03 PM on November 23, 2007
Addiction is a hell of a thing, davebush. Your nonexistent compassion is duly noted.
posted by ryanhealy at 2:09 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by ryanhealy at 2:09 PM on November 23, 2007
As someone who spends the majority of his time smoking cigarettes, not cleaning the house, and taking care of people with severe mobility and speech impairments, I'd like to cordially invite davebush to go fuck himself.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:13 PM on November 23, 2007 [11 favorites]
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:13 PM on November 23, 2007 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure what services he expects to find here that he can't get in B.C.? There are likely better Aboriginal services for Raven, but I would not consider the atmosphere here friendly to First Nations people in general.
I wasn't born in Winnipeg, but you learn quickly that pretty much everyone who grew up here has very limited tolerance for Natives. It's impossible to go a day without somewhat making one of those awkward 'jokes' about them.
Hopefully Jason's family will help him, because I'm not sure anyone else will.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 2:18 PM on November 23, 2007
I wasn't born in Winnipeg, but you learn quickly that pretty much everyone who grew up here has very limited tolerance for Natives. It's impossible to go a day without somewhat making one of those awkward 'jokes' about them.
Hopefully Jason's family will help him, because I'm not sure anyone else will.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 2:18 PM on November 23, 2007
I have compassion. He seems reasonably coherent, functional and capable of making rational choices, despite the horrible addiction.
posted by davebush at 2:20 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by davebush at 2:20 PM on November 23, 2007
I saw them the other day, outside the Broadway Skytrain station. I wondered what their story was.
posted by jokeefe at 2:25 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by jokeefe at 2:25 PM on November 23, 2007
Everyone who lives in the DTES have a story. Some of them are tragic when compared to our cushy lifesyle, but there are also many heart-lifting stories about family and community.
I sucks, that all of us, myself included, can't find a way to help those that need help there.
Thanks for the post flashman.
aside - the Downtown Eastside, has the highest number of non-profit community organizations per resident.
posted by phyrewerx at 2:33 PM on November 23, 2007
I sucks, that all of us, myself included, can't find a way to help those that need help there.
Thanks for the post flashman.
aside - the Downtown Eastside, has the highest number of non-profit community organizations per resident.
posted by phyrewerx at 2:33 PM on November 23, 2007
There but for the grace of god go I. Social services must exist for Raven, but I wonder if they have the wherewithall to access those services.
But I would have to agree with davebush's sentiments...It's one thing to feel sorry for folks like Raven and Jason, but it's another to have to check the park where your kids play soccer for needles. Or used condoms.
But the corner of Hastings and Main is like a vision of hell.
posted by KokuRyu at 2:43 PM on November 23, 2007
But I would have to agree with davebush's sentiments...It's one thing to feel sorry for folks like Raven and Jason, but it's another to have to check the park where your kids play soccer for needles. Or used condoms.
But the corner of Hastings and Main is like a vision of hell.
posted by KokuRyu at 2:43 PM on November 23, 2007
I saw them the other day, outside the Broadway Skytrain station.
Great! So they're exactly 3 blocks from my house. How long will it be before that addiction brings Jason to my house to break my bedroom window, steal however many of my belongings he can carry, and pawn them for enough crack to get him through the rest of the afternoon?
posted by monkeymike at 2:49 PM on November 23, 2007
Great! So they're exactly 3 blocks from my house. How long will it be before that addiction brings Jason to my house to break my bedroom window, steal however many of my belongings he can carry, and pawn them for enough crack to get him through the rest of the afternoon?
posted by monkeymike at 2:49 PM on November 23, 2007
No time at all, Monkeymike, since you are the centre of the known universe.
It's obviously all about you, of course.
posted by jrochest at 2:54 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
It's obviously all about you, of course.
posted by jrochest at 2:54 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
There was no editorializing in that documentary, despite it being shot on melancholy black and white and tracked with maudlin music.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:03 PM on November 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:03 PM on November 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
We had a discussion about the DTES recently.
posted by PercussivePaul at 3:05 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by PercussivePaul at 3:05 PM on November 23, 2007
jrochest, I think you're being a bit hard on monkeymike. Do we not deserve to not have our houses broken into, or even worse, our car windows broken for the bit of change in the ashtray?
Feel sorry for the poor: fine. And I know many of these people were dealt a poor hand in life. But I feel sorry for poor but hard working people in South America, or the Phillipines. Poor but dignified people who have no viable option and make due as best they can.
I can tell you for a fact that there are many, many, able bodied young men on the Downtown East Side who could easily find jobs in construction. Really, really well-paying jobs. But it's easier to take drugs.
A blanket "feel sorry for the poor people" may be a fine sentiment, and one that assuages the feelings of guilt that better off people sometimes have. And for those who deserve it it is appropriate. But the level of petty and not so petty crime that comes out of the need for drugs by residents of this area makes it seem to me entirely inappropriate. Save your sympathy for someone who honestly deserves it.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:05 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
Feel sorry for the poor: fine. And I know many of these people were dealt a poor hand in life. But I feel sorry for poor but hard working people in South America, or the Phillipines. Poor but dignified people who have no viable option and make due as best they can.
I can tell you for a fact that there are many, many, able bodied young men on the Downtown East Side who could easily find jobs in construction. Really, really well-paying jobs. But it's easier to take drugs.
A blanket "feel sorry for the poor people" may be a fine sentiment, and one that assuages the feelings of guilt that better off people sometimes have. And for those who deserve it it is appropriate. But the level of petty and not so petty crime that comes out of the need for drugs by residents of this area makes it seem to me entirely inappropriate. Save your sympathy for someone who honestly deserves it.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:05 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
Turtles all the way down said: "But it's easier to take drugs."
Yeah, it sure looks easy, too. What an easy life those people have. They just don't know how good they have it.
Whether you feel sorry for addicts or not is totally and completely irrelevant. Compassion should not be confused with pity. Pity is rarely helpful or necessary -- compassion always is.
Jesus Fucking Christ.
posted by ryanhealy at 3:10 PM on November 23, 2007 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it sure looks easy, too. What an easy life those people have. They just don't know how good they have it.
Whether you feel sorry for addicts or not is totally and completely irrelevant. Compassion should not be confused with pity. Pity is rarely helpful or necessary -- compassion always is.
Jesus Fucking Christ.
posted by ryanhealy at 3:10 PM on November 23, 2007 [3 favorites]
These two have each other to love. Of that, I am envious. I thought to myself, "this lady is blind and in a wheelchair and has someone to brush her teeth and change her diaper, and I with my good health and fancy car am afraid to go on a date with someone my friends will think is ugly." It seems *I* should be worthy of THEIR compassion...
posted by PigAlien at 3:22 PM on November 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by PigAlien at 3:22 PM on November 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
Well, ryanhealy, that's not at all what I said. I walked through this area daily when my partner and I rented office space nearby.
Now, compassion vs. pity. As I said, many or most of the people who have ended up in this most terrible people have had shitty upbringings, or actually shitty might be too mild. More heartbreakingly wretched, and my soft heart (oh yeah, I have one) does indeed break when I think of girls who have had their life ruined by early abuse or boys beaten and otherwise neglected and even hated by their caregivers.
But here we are. As I said in an earlier thread if we are to help these people and erase this blot on our city we need to sort these people into some categories:
1. The mentally ill who should be given residential treatment.
2. Women who for lack of a viable alternative resort to trading sex for money for drugs. Not all of these are angels but many, many of them could be trained to do something much less dangerous as long as they can be weaned off cocaine and heroin.
3. Men who have had everything go wrong in their life and have found themselves locked into this cycle of hustling or stealing money in order to buy and/or deal drugs. I understand that nobody who has their life otherwise in order would volunteer for this eternal cycling of hustling, stealing, dealing and using. But the solution to this involves a bit of tough love, and not a flabby liberal "how can you not be compassionate to the poor?" attitude. I don't really care if anyone chooses to use drugs. I do care if they break into my car to do so.
So, ryanhealy, I hope you understand that I am intimately familiar with the situation on Hastings street between Cambie and Main. Perhaps, perhaps, even more than you are. So, with respect, please take your "Jesus Fucking Christ" and shove it up your ass.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:26 PM on November 23, 2007 [5 favorites]
Now, compassion vs. pity. As I said, many or most of the people who have ended up in this most terrible people have had shitty upbringings, or actually shitty might be too mild. More heartbreakingly wretched, and my soft heart (oh yeah, I have one) does indeed break when I think of girls who have had their life ruined by early abuse or boys beaten and otherwise neglected and even hated by their caregivers.
But here we are. As I said in an earlier thread if we are to help these people and erase this blot on our city we need to sort these people into some categories:
1. The mentally ill who should be given residential treatment.
2. Women who for lack of a viable alternative resort to trading sex for money for drugs. Not all of these are angels but many, many of them could be trained to do something much less dangerous as long as they can be weaned off cocaine and heroin.
3. Men who have had everything go wrong in their life and have found themselves locked into this cycle of hustling or stealing money in order to buy and/or deal drugs. I understand that nobody who has their life otherwise in order would volunteer for this eternal cycling of hustling, stealing, dealing and using. But the solution to this involves a bit of tough love, and not a flabby liberal "how can you not be compassionate to the poor?" attitude. I don't really care if anyone chooses to use drugs. I do care if they break into my car to do so.
So, ryanhealy, I hope you understand that I am intimately familiar with the situation on Hastings street between Cambie and Main. Perhaps, perhaps, even more than you are. So, with respect, please take your "Jesus Fucking Christ" and shove it up your ass.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:26 PM on November 23, 2007 [5 favorites]
most terrible people
Aargh! terrible area.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:27 PM on November 23, 2007
Aargh! terrible area.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:27 PM on November 23, 2007
Turtles: "But it's easier to take drugs."
Its not about it being easier to take drugs, its about the difficulty of trying not to take them. Ever tried not eating? When the body physically depends on a drug, the will to avoid it is quite similar. Your brain makes the choice for you.
Its like saying, its easier to be depressed than it is to just solve all your problems. Come on, just flip that switch that we all have that allows us to change our state of mind.
No offense, but this is probably the same as asking you to try and experience some empathy as a means to understanding what is actually happening here.
posted by Trakker at 3:29 PM on November 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
Its not about it being easier to take drugs, its about the difficulty of trying not to take them. Ever tried not eating? When the body physically depends on a drug, the will to avoid it is quite similar. Your brain makes the choice for you.
Its like saying, its easier to be depressed than it is to just solve all your problems. Come on, just flip that switch that we all have that allows us to change our state of mind.
No offense, but this is probably the same as asking you to try and experience some empathy as a means to understanding what is actually happening here.
posted by Trakker at 3:29 PM on November 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
Fair enough Trakker. But please don't think I have empathy for these people.
I mean, what does the attitude you express ultimately lead to?
It seems to me you're saying "If you take drugs, that's it: it's impossible to stop." Granted it's very hard. But the path to a solution is to come into the situation and tell the participants "you really should be doing something better with your life. We will help you get off drugs and train you for a productive job."
Carping at me isn't going to help these people at all. An apologetic attitude towards "the poor" on the part of government agencies is going to do exactly nothing towards ameliorating this retched situation.
I am not the enemy here.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:34 PM on November 23, 2007
I mean, what does the attitude you express ultimately lead to?
It seems to me you're saying "If you take drugs, that's it: it's impossible to stop." Granted it's very hard. But the path to a solution is to come into the situation and tell the participants "you really should be doing something better with your life. We will help you get off drugs and train you for a productive job."
Carping at me isn't going to help these people at all. An apologetic attitude towards "the poor" on the part of government agencies is going to do exactly nothing towards ameliorating this retched situation.
I am not the enemy here.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:34 PM on November 23, 2007
Aaargh--even worse!
"Please don't think I don't have empathy for these people!
Jesus fucking Christ. ;-)
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:35 PM on November 23, 2007
"Please don't think I don't have empathy for these people!
Jesus fucking Christ. ;-)
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:35 PM on November 23, 2007
Turtles: "But the solution to this involves a bit of tough love, and not a flabby liberal "how can you not be compassionate to the poor?" attitude."
It seems though that it was probably the lack of compassion that ended most of these people here in the first place.
"I don't really care if anyone chooses to use drugs. I do care if they break into my car to do so."
Its not about the drugs, its about the addiction. By saying that you don't care about the situation people are in but you do care about how they affect you shows that you are missing the big picture. You can't have one without the other.
posted by Trakker at 3:38 PM on November 23, 2007
It seems though that it was probably the lack of compassion that ended most of these people here in the first place.
"I don't really care if anyone chooses to use drugs. I do care if they break into my car to do so."
Its not about the drugs, its about the addiction. By saying that you don't care about the situation people are in but you do care about how they affect you shows that you are missing the big picture. You can't have one without the other.
posted by Trakker at 3:38 PM on November 23, 2007
Okay, Trakker, here's what I'll do: I'll find a few deserving souls on Hastings, you know, the kind who have had a tough life but who have a heart of gold. (And you know, there are all kinds of these folks down there.)
And I'm going to pay the fare to send them on the bus to your place. Now, I'm warning you, they will probably steal everything in sight. But it's not their fault, right? And you have compassion, which I obviously lack.
So once you do that, which I'm sure you will, you just might understand my impatience with people from elsewhere who make grand pronouncements about drug use but don't suffer the consequences of same.
And if you are now going to tell me that you live in a high-crime area of Detroit tell me how much love you have for the crackhead that just broke into your car.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:45 PM on November 23, 2007
And I'm going to pay the fare to send them on the bus to your place. Now, I'm warning you, they will probably steal everything in sight. But it's not their fault, right? And you have compassion, which I obviously lack.
So once you do that, which I'm sure you will, you just might understand my impatience with people from elsewhere who make grand pronouncements about drug use but don't suffer the consequences of same.
And if you are now going to tell me that you live in a high-crime area of Detroit tell me how much love you have for the crackhead that just broke into your car.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:45 PM on November 23, 2007
It seems though that it was probably the lack of compassion that ended most of these people here in the first place.
I have abundant compassion, which I hope I've demonstrated. And I'm not lying about anything I've said in my comments thus far.
But it doesn't matter what landed these individuals in the area. The point is to get them out of there, because like it or not, with the Olympics coming in three years, they are going to be gone. I'd prefer that the money that's going to be spent moving them out and renewing the area is spent on a rational plan to improve their lives. And yes, tough love will be required unless you just want to move them to another area of the city.
Oh, there's lots of money available to do this. This is the next place that downtown Vancouver can expand. You could suck millions out of developers in exchange for the chance to build on this area. But god dammit you've got to walk into the situation clear-eyed, realizing why people are there, what they continue to get out of being there, what will lead them to better lives.
It's not their fault, it's our fault and they're irreversibly in the throes of addiction is not going to cut it.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:51 PM on November 23, 2007
I have abundant compassion, which I hope I've demonstrated. And I'm not lying about anything I've said in my comments thus far.
But it doesn't matter what landed these individuals in the area. The point is to get them out of there, because like it or not, with the Olympics coming in three years, they are going to be gone. I'd prefer that the money that's going to be spent moving them out and renewing the area is spent on a rational plan to improve their lives. And yes, tough love will be required unless you just want to move them to another area of the city.
Oh, there's lots of money available to do this. This is the next place that downtown Vancouver can expand. You could suck millions out of developers in exchange for the chance to build on this area. But god dammit you've got to walk into the situation clear-eyed, realizing why people are there, what they continue to get out of being there, what will lead them to better lives.
It's not their fault, it's our fault and they're irreversibly in the throes of addiction is not going to cut it.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:51 PM on November 23, 2007
Note to self: don't ever, ever try crack or heroin. The powerful addiction and subsequent path to poverty, loss of dignity and often death is well documented. No matter how curious you are, just don't try it.
I just made a choice.
posted by davebush at 3:56 PM on November 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
I just made a choice.
posted by davebush at 3:56 PM on November 23, 2007 [2 favorites]
You're quite sure none of us who have made "grand pronouncements about drug use" know anything about it?
That's one hell of an assumption, Turtles.
Also, you seem to be constructing a wisp of a straw man right now. No one here has yet tried to place blame or assign guilt.
posted by ryanhealy at 4:03 PM on November 23, 2007
That's one hell of an assumption, Turtles.
Also, you seem to be constructing a wisp of a straw man right now. No one here has yet tried to place blame or assign guilt.
posted by ryanhealy at 4:03 PM on November 23, 2007
Turtles: "I mean, what does the attitude you express ultimately lead to?"
I believe it leads to a more positive, realistic perspective from which to discover better solutions. Just being compassionate is not enough, I agree, but I think we can come up with better solutions from a compassionate perspective than a hard lined one.
It seems to be similar to trying to think about stuff when you are frustrated versus when you are in a good happy mood.
"And I'm going to pay the fare to send them on the bus to your place. Now, I'm warning you, they will probably steal everything in sight. But it's not their fault, right? And you have compassion, which I obviously lack."
You seem to be taking this personally, its just a discussion.
If someone breaks in to my house and steals stuff, then well, someone broke in to my house and stole stuff. Just because I can accept that this stuff happens doesn't mean I agree it should. And because I don't take it personally, it leaves more room to be aware of its reality and understand the situation.
"It's not their fault, it's our fault and they're irreversibly in the throes of addiction is not going to cut it."
their/our ? I don't really subscribe to the whole "us" and "them" idea. I didn't say it was irreversible, although it usually is. It is not a simple problem to solve, and those currently in it can't be "cured". Helped maybe. The roots seem to be the environment they grew up in. I knew someone who grew up with a mother who did coke and sold herself for it. Grow up with someone like that from birth and see what happens. Not everyone has a strong will.
But to just go and say tough love will fix everything is just a bit naive in my opinion. You pretty much have to alter the social culture in a big way and the only way that can happen is with lots of time. A long term compassionate perspective seems to me to be the best solution. How can more negativity generate less of it?
posted by Trakker at 4:06 PM on November 23, 2007
I believe it leads to a more positive, realistic perspective from which to discover better solutions. Just being compassionate is not enough, I agree, but I think we can come up with better solutions from a compassionate perspective than a hard lined one.
It seems to be similar to trying to think about stuff when you are frustrated versus when you are in a good happy mood.
"And I'm going to pay the fare to send them on the bus to your place. Now, I'm warning you, they will probably steal everything in sight. But it's not their fault, right? And you have compassion, which I obviously lack."
You seem to be taking this personally, its just a discussion.
If someone breaks in to my house and steals stuff, then well, someone broke in to my house and stole stuff. Just because I can accept that this stuff happens doesn't mean I agree it should. And because I don't take it personally, it leaves more room to be aware of its reality and understand the situation.
"It's not their fault, it's our fault and they're irreversibly in the throes of addiction is not going to cut it."
their/our ? I don't really subscribe to the whole "us" and "them" idea. I didn't say it was irreversible, although it usually is. It is not a simple problem to solve, and those currently in it can't be "cured". Helped maybe. The roots seem to be the environment they grew up in. I knew someone who grew up with a mother who did coke and sold herself for it. Grow up with someone like that from birth and see what happens. Not everyone has a strong will.
But to just go and say tough love will fix everything is just a bit naive in my opinion. You pretty much have to alter the social culture in a big way and the only way that can happen is with lots of time. A long term compassionate perspective seems to me to be the best solution. How can more negativity generate less of it?
posted by Trakker at 4:06 PM on November 23, 2007
Note to self: don't ever try accounting. The powerful boredom and subsequent path to suburbia, loss of individuality, and often living death is well-documented. No matter how curious you are, just don't try it.
I just made a choice.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 4:09 PM on November 23, 2007 [6 favorites]
I just made a choice.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 4:09 PM on November 23, 2007 [6 favorites]
I'm a compassionate and intelligent individual. I face (a little bit of) apparent hatred or at least acrimony from some of my fellow MeFites. I'm wondering whether this is because my understanding of the situation doesn't match those of my esteemed colleagues.
So, take the average resident of the Downtown Eastside. They are one welfare so:
1. They have an apartment paid for by welfare. Not fancy--if they're lucky they have their own sink and even a bathroom--but it's safe and warm.
2. They are provided money through welfare to buy food. If they spend their money on something else there are abundant sources of free food for poor people so that no-one goes hungry. If you're skinny it's because you're a female on crack, not because food is not available.
3. They have free medical and dental care. Seriously, if they go to the hospital they are treated almost exactly as is a CEO of a company. (Which, of course, as a Canadian, I think is fair, because it's not your choice to get sick and we're all human beings.) (But I don't have dental care.)
So, really, the person that breaks into my car is provided for at a much higher level by the government than I am. I make this point to support my idea that, given the right instruction and motivation to change, the able-bodied and able-minded of the population could bootstrap their way up to a better life. If you think they have no other option but to take drugs and steal I wonder what else you would provide them to place them in a position to improve their lot.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 4:14 PM on November 23, 2007
So, take the average resident of the Downtown Eastside. They are one welfare so:
1. They have an apartment paid for by welfare. Not fancy--if they're lucky they have their own sink and even a bathroom--but it's safe and warm.
2. They are provided money through welfare to buy food. If they spend their money on something else there are abundant sources of free food for poor people so that no-one goes hungry. If you're skinny it's because you're a female on crack, not because food is not available.
3. They have free medical and dental care. Seriously, if they go to the hospital they are treated almost exactly as is a CEO of a company. (Which, of course, as a Canadian, I think is fair, because it's not your choice to get sick and we're all human beings.) (But I don't have dental care.)
So, really, the person that breaks into my car is provided for at a much higher level by the government than I am. I make this point to support my idea that, given the right instruction and motivation to change, the able-bodied and able-minded of the population could bootstrap their way up to a better life. If you think they have no other option but to take drugs and steal I wonder what else you would provide them to place them in a position to improve their lot.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 4:14 PM on November 23, 2007
Note to self: don't ever try Metafilter. The powerful annoyance and subsequent path to net.knowitallism, loss of spare time, and often living hermitage is well-documented. No matter how curious you are, just don't try it.
I just made a choice.
posted by pyramid termite at 4:16 PM on November 23, 2007 [6 favorites]
I just made a choice.
posted by pyramid termite at 4:16 PM on November 23, 2007 [6 favorites]
Social services must exist for Raven, but I wonder if they have the wherewithall to access those services.
Millions of dollars of social services are poured into the DTES every year. I can guarantee you that Raven is in touch with a social worker, and has access to at least basic health care and a welfare cheque. In this respect both she and Jason are slightly better off than they would be in America, so there's that.
Stable housing and more health care help a great deal, but I'm not sure that anything is going to "fix" the DTES as long as it's a de facto storage area for the city's addicted and mentally ill population. The mentally ill need residential programs, and the addicted need detox and community support. Community support, I hasten to add, is very much a feature of life in the DTES, which makes it paradoxically harder for people to leave and move to others areas of the city.
posted by jokeefe at 4:21 PM on November 23, 2007
Millions of dollars of social services are poured into the DTES every year. I can guarantee you that Raven is in touch with a social worker, and has access to at least basic health care and a welfare cheque. In this respect both she and Jason are slightly better off than they would be in America, so there's that.
Stable housing and more health care help a great deal, but I'm not sure that anything is going to "fix" the DTES as long as it's a de facto storage area for the city's addicted and mentally ill population. The mentally ill need residential programs, and the addicted need detox and community support. Community support, I hasten to add, is very much a feature of life in the DTES, which makes it paradoxically harder for people to leave and move to others areas of the city.
posted by jokeefe at 4:21 PM on November 23, 2007
They have an apartment paid for by welfare. Not fancy--if they're lucky they have their own sink and even a bathroom--but it's safe and warm.
You know, aside from this, I agree with Turtles here, and that's as a life-long resident of this city and as someone who has had to deal with the havoc that crack addiction has wrought on one family member (and all the dominoes that fell from it-- her kids, her mother in law, her ex, me, etc.) And you feel for these people, but eventually you are exhausted.
Living in most of the housing on offer in the DTES is no fun, and the SROs are often uninhabitable. The hotel owners will buy welfare cheques from the recepients and give them a fraction of their worth. The rooms are often infested with vermin, and the shared bathrooms are unsafe. There is subsidized housing in the DTES, but not enough for everyone.
posted by jokeefe at 4:26 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
You know, aside from this, I agree with Turtles here, and that's as a life-long resident of this city and as someone who has had to deal with the havoc that crack addiction has wrought on one family member (and all the dominoes that fell from it-- her kids, her mother in law, her ex, me, etc.) And you feel for these people, but eventually you are exhausted.
Living in most of the housing on offer in the DTES is no fun, and the SROs are often uninhabitable. The hotel owners will buy welfare cheques from the recepients and give them a fraction of their worth. The rooms are often infested with vermin, and the shared bathrooms are unsafe. There is subsidized housing in the DTES, but not enough for everyone.
posted by jokeefe at 4:26 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
Vancouver has one of the highest property crime rates in North America. Property crime that is largely driven by drug users stealing to fund addictions.
If Jason is living in an SRO in the downtown eastside and on welfare, he has an exceptionally small amount of money left from his welfare check after paying rent with which to feed himself. Less that $200 per month if my math is right (and please correct me if I'm wrong). How long would it take for a crack addict to burn through $200? Once it's gone, where is the money going to come from to feed that addicton?
It saddens me to see people live like this. That doesn't mean I want them breaking into my home.
posted by monkeymike at 4:26 PM on November 23, 2007
If Jason is living in an SRO in the downtown eastside and on welfare, he has an exceptionally small amount of money left from his welfare check after paying rent with which to feed himself. Less that $200 per month if my math is right (and please correct me if I'm wrong). How long would it take for a crack addict to burn through $200? Once it's gone, where is the money going to come from to feed that addicton?
It saddens me to see people live like this. That doesn't mean I want them breaking into my home.
posted by monkeymike at 4:26 PM on November 23, 2007
given the right instruction and motivation to change, the able-bodied and able-minded of the population could bootstrap their way up to a better life. If you think they have no other option but to take drugs and steal I wonder what else you would provide them to place them in a position to improve their lot.
There's a fairly large percentage of the population in the DTES who move in and out, depending on life circumstance and where they are with their addictions. There are many people who clean up temporarily, get jobs, move elsewhere, sometimes for periods of years, but who end up back when their life takes a downward turn. But again, the concentration of social services there, and the visibility of it draws people down to the DTES. Sadly, as neighbourhoods tend to get hostile and defensive whenever a treatment centre is proposed in their area *cough* West Side *cough this tends to reinforce and solidify the role of the DTES as both place of last resort and place to get help.
posted by jokeefe at 4:30 PM on November 23, 2007
There's a fairly large percentage of the population in the DTES who move in and out, depending on life circumstance and where they are with their addictions. There are many people who clean up temporarily, get jobs, move elsewhere, sometimes for periods of years, but who end up back when their life takes a downward turn. But again, the concentration of social services there, and the visibility of it draws people down to the DTES. Sadly, as neighbourhoods tend to get hostile and defensive whenever a treatment centre is proposed in their area *cough* West Side *cough this tends to reinforce and solidify the role of the DTES as both place of last resort and place to get help.
posted by jokeefe at 4:30 PM on November 23, 2007
Once it's gone, where is the money going to come from to feed that addicton?
Besides panhandling? There's the Carnegie Center, and the Dugout, and the Gathering Place, I suppose, for front line help. The food banks, the supermarket dumpsters, the churches that hand out sandwiches. Nutrition might be a problem, but some form of food generally is around. Not the best food, but still, something.
posted by jokeefe at 4:33 PM on November 23, 2007
Besides panhandling? There's the Carnegie Center, and the Dugout, and the Gathering Place, I suppose, for front line help. The food banks, the supermarket dumpsters, the churches that hand out sandwiches. Nutrition might be a problem, but some form of food generally is around. Not the best food, but still, something.
posted by jokeefe at 4:33 PM on November 23, 2007
Regular British Columbians are going to have to examine their own personal relationship with illicit drugs such as cocaine and pot. We're all into smoking pot and gee look at how cool we are with our marijuana.
But our relationship with weed and our complicity in the billion-dollar underground economy it supports (I was in Nelson recently and asked someone from the BDC where the town's cashflow comes from, and he said 'marijuana', and he was serious) means that drug gangs can operate with impunity and shoot people in the fucking head in south Granville before breakfast. Every ounce of pot every university student buys supports drug gangs, and it is the drug gangs that are responsible for the squalor in the DTES.
However, I think all government liquor stores should be abolished. I want to buy beer at Safeway.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:35 PM on November 23, 2007
But our relationship with weed and our complicity in the billion-dollar underground economy it supports (I was in Nelson recently and asked someone from the BDC where the town's cashflow comes from, and he said 'marijuana', and he was serious) means that drug gangs can operate with impunity and shoot people in the fucking head in south Granville before breakfast. Every ounce of pot every university student buys supports drug gangs, and it is the drug gangs that are responsible for the squalor in the DTES.
However, I think all government liquor stores should be abolished. I want to buy beer at Safeway.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:35 PM on November 23, 2007
I have abundant compassion, which I hope I've demonstrated. And I'm not lying about anything I've said in my comments thus far.
But it doesn't matter what landed these individuals in the area. The point is to get them out of there, because like it or not, with the Olympics coming in three years, they are going to be gone. I'd prefer that the money that's going to be spent moving them out and renewing the area is spent on a rational plan to improve their lives. And yes, tough love will be required unless you just want to move them to another area of the city
This has me scratching my head, because it doesn't sound very compassionate to me. In my opinion humanitarian considerations far exceed the desire to simply get them out of there, Olympics be damned. I am under the impression that the community and social services currently in existence make for a better life than simply living on the streets where such services don't exist. I'm not convinced that dismantling the DTES will improve the lives of its residents (I have no reason to believe that, unless someone provides some evidence).
posted by PercussivePaul at 4:44 PM on November 23, 2007
But it doesn't matter what landed these individuals in the area. The point is to get them out of there, because like it or not, with the Olympics coming in three years, they are going to be gone. I'd prefer that the money that's going to be spent moving them out and renewing the area is spent on a rational plan to improve their lives. And yes, tough love will be required unless you just want to move them to another area of the city
This has me scratching my head, because it doesn't sound very compassionate to me. In my opinion humanitarian considerations far exceed the desire to simply get them out of there, Olympics be damned. I am under the impression that the community and social services currently in existence make for a better life than simply living on the streets where such services don't exist. I'm not convinced that dismantling the DTES will improve the lives of its residents (I have no reason to believe that, unless someone provides some evidence).
posted by PercussivePaul at 4:44 PM on November 23, 2007
even with Raven's disability welfare check, Jason is getting paid peanuts working as a 24hr PCA...he should be getting a salary instead of sponging off her payments. if he weren't there she would be either dead or in some assisted living facility costing you taxpayers 10 times as much. it's funny, you people would rather be ripped off occasionally by junkies then cough off the real money to pay for the the welfare state that would take away the reason for petty property crime. getting your TV stolen is chump change in the end...
and he appears to be a heroin addict, Raven prefers the crack.
posted by geos at 5:11 PM on November 23, 2007
and he appears to be a heroin addict, Raven prefers the crack.
posted by geos at 5:11 PM on November 23, 2007
I want to buy beer at Safeway
We seem to be at loggerheads today, KokuRyu, because I could not disagree more.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 6:06 PM on November 23, 2007
We seem to be at loggerheads today, KokuRyu, because I could not disagree more.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 6:06 PM on November 23, 2007
if he weren't there she would be either dead or in some assisted living facility costing you taxpayers 10 times as much. it's funny, you people would rather be ripped off occasionally by junkies then cough off the real money to pay for the the welfare state that would take away the reason for petty property crime.
Erm, I have no problem paying my taxes, because I know some of it goes to help, albeit indirectly, my fellow Vancouverites who haven't been dealt the good hand I was, relatively speaking.
I do have a problem with my tax money being spent on the goddamned Olympics. Fuckers. *tries to bite tongue*
posted by jokeefe at 6:07 PM on November 23, 2007
Erm, I have no problem paying my taxes, because I know some of it goes to help, albeit indirectly, my fellow Vancouverites who haven't been dealt the good hand I was, relatively speaking.
I do have a problem with my tax money being spent on the goddamned Olympics. Fuckers. *tries to bite tongue*
posted by jokeefe at 6:07 PM on November 23, 2007
And seriously, I'd rather not have my TV stolen. You know?
posted by jokeefe at 6:07 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by jokeefe at 6:07 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
And my mother had her wedding ring, jewelry made by my grandfather, and her earrings stolen, as well as various other things (a necklace I gave her for her birthday, etc.) by the usual smash and grab "Oh hai I need some crack" type of property theft that literally everybody I know has experienced. It gets tiring.
posted by jokeefe at 6:09 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by jokeefe at 6:09 PM on November 23, 2007
Note to self: don't ever, ever try crack or heroin.
There are really just three basic rules, that, if followed, will dramatically reduce the prospect of developing problems with drugs:
1.) Don't use heroin
2.) Don't use crack cocaine
3.) Don't inject.
Not that I followed these rules myself, mind. But I still don't know of any better advice to give kids thinking of fucking with drugs.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:12 PM on November 23, 2007
There are really just three basic rules, that, if followed, will dramatically reduce the prospect of developing problems with drugs:
1.) Don't use heroin
2.) Don't use crack cocaine
3.) Don't inject.
Not that I followed these rules myself, mind. But I still don't know of any better advice to give kids thinking of fucking with drugs.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:12 PM on November 23, 2007
You know who has real problems? People who've had their televisions stolen. Fuck that's rough.
This pair, with the violent sexual assault leaving a woman blind and retarded getting by with her partner whose dying of aids, I mean, I guess that sort of rough too.
posted by chunking express at 6:18 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
This pair, with the violent sexual assault leaving a woman blind and retarded getting by with her partner whose dying of aids, I mean, I guess that sort of rough too.
posted by chunking express at 6:18 PM on November 23, 2007 [1 favorite]
What is an SRO? (Sorry if that was explained in the documentary, I'm having download problems.)
posted by jb at 6:19 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by jb at 6:19 PM on November 23, 2007
Single Room Occupancy hotel. Basically run by really scummy landlords to provide the minimum (one room and a bed) to people on welfare. But they are disappearing little by little as gentrification encroaches.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 6:22 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by Turtles all the way down at 6:22 PM on November 23, 2007
Single Room Occupancy hotel
My brother lived in something similar for a while - it was pretty awful. Though he did have a small private bathroom and a mini-kitchen. But only about $50-80 left over for the whole month from his welfare check. Which meant he spent all day panhandling for food (really for food - he didn't do drugs at all, though he did smoke cigarettes on and off) instead of putting his life back together.
posted by jb at 6:27 PM on November 23, 2007
My brother lived in something similar for a while - it was pretty awful. Though he did have a small private bathroom and a mini-kitchen. But only about $50-80 left over for the whole month from his welfare check. Which meant he spent all day panhandling for food (really for food - he didn't do drugs at all, though he did smoke cigarettes on and off) instead of putting his life back together.
posted by jb at 6:27 PM on November 23, 2007
Turtles: "I'm a compassionate and intelligent individual. I face (a little bit of) apparent hatred or at least acrimony from some of my fellow MeFites. I'm wondering whether this is because my understanding of the situation doesn't match those of my esteemed colleagues."
Just because someone disagree's with your opinion doesn't mean they hate you. You seem to be combining your current perspective of the issue with yourself as a person. Try separating the two to see what it feels like. It is ok to be wrong... (not that I think I am exclusively right).
The point I am trying to get across is that I don't think many of us really have a true understanding of how complex the situation is. What are all the variables that lead up to this situation? Why does it exist in the first place? How can it be prevented?
So what about those in the situation? It seems that much of the blame is put on addicts themselves. Really, no one is to blame. You can't expect people to grow up with a perfect sense of awareness and not be affected by the madness most of them are exposed to. There was a case where a small girl was neglected her whole childhood, never learned to talk properly if at all, and had just about zero interaction with people. Our awareness of ourselves and how we perceive the world seems to be mostly due to the culture of our parents, friends, community, city, country, etc.
So sure, property crime is an effect of the situation that exists with those addicted to drugs... it doesn't seem very compassionate though to be upset by this. Yes it is wrong, and shouldn't happen, but it seems that this just creates a prejudice toward addicts as "bad people". This prejudice seems to exist as a lack of understanding of what it is like to be addicted.
This doesn't mean that you are not compassionate, its just that your current perspective doesn't seem to be.
posted by Trakker at 7:31 PM on November 23, 2007
Just because someone disagree's with your opinion doesn't mean they hate you. You seem to be combining your current perspective of the issue with yourself as a person. Try separating the two to see what it feels like. It is ok to be wrong... (not that I think I am exclusively right).
The point I am trying to get across is that I don't think many of us really have a true understanding of how complex the situation is. What are all the variables that lead up to this situation? Why does it exist in the first place? How can it be prevented?
So what about those in the situation? It seems that much of the blame is put on addicts themselves. Really, no one is to blame. You can't expect people to grow up with a perfect sense of awareness and not be affected by the madness most of them are exposed to. There was a case where a small girl was neglected her whole childhood, never learned to talk properly if at all, and had just about zero interaction with people. Our awareness of ourselves and how we perceive the world seems to be mostly due to the culture of our parents, friends, community, city, country, etc.
So sure, property crime is an effect of the situation that exists with those addicted to drugs... it doesn't seem very compassionate though to be upset by this. Yes it is wrong, and shouldn't happen, but it seems that this just creates a prejudice toward addicts as "bad people". This prejudice seems to exist as a lack of understanding of what it is like to be addicted.
This doesn't mean that you are not compassionate, its just that your current perspective doesn't seem to be.
posted by Trakker at 7:31 PM on November 23, 2007
We all see in this ten minute film what we want to see.
I was struck by the love story. I was amazed by the hope.
In the comment reading that followed? I saw little love and little hope...all VERY directly proportional to the proximity to Jason and Raven. What's THAT about?
posted by LiveLurker at 7:36 PM on November 23, 2007
I was struck by the love story. I was amazed by the hope.
In the comment reading that followed? I saw little love and little hope...all VERY directly proportional to the proximity to Jason and Raven. What's THAT about?
posted by LiveLurker at 7:36 PM on November 23, 2007
I pass through the DTES and have worked in the area in the past. It's a terrible area for a person to end up. Yes, there are loads of social services, but the temptations are on every corner.
What I want to know is how does a woman who has suffered a brain stem injury that leaves her legally blind end up on the street? That's shameful, she never should have found herself in that situation. What happens to her when Jason dies of AIDS, as he says will happen?
posted by Salmonberry at 7:45 PM on November 23, 2007
What I want to know is how does a woman who has suffered a brain stem injury that leaves her legally blind end up on the street? That's shameful, she never should have found herself in that situation. What happens to her when Jason dies of AIDS, as he says will happen?
posted by Salmonberry at 7:45 PM on November 23, 2007
The fact is that if you give an addict a safe room to shoot dope in he will be less of a burden on the tax payers than if you punitively insist that he live on the streets despite knowing that harm reduction methods like housing first programs for the homeless work.
The reason he will be less of a burden is that when a guy stays on the streets he winds up relying on homeless shelters, emergency rooms, prison cells and psych units for his interim housing between long stretches on the streets. These are very expensive, largely tax payer funded services.
On the streets he will be exposed to harsher elements that will result in chronic physical problems that will wind up eventually getting treated regardless of whether he has insurance or not. You can give a guy a room to smoke his rocks in at a fraction of the cost that amputating his toes will cost after a long nights in the cold. After surgery he'll wind up in a hospital bed, maybe for weeks, at an astronomical cost. Maybe he already spends weeks of every winter in hospital beds fighting pneumonia.
But the better part about giving away housing is that beyond these costs, you'll be able to say that you kept someone from having to lose their toes to the elements because you don't think that in a first world nation people should have to go through that regardless of whatever choices they have made in life.
Or you could say, fuck those people, let them lose limbs, let them claw at each other like animals in the streets, let the women get repeatedly raped and let let me pay more for it in the end out of my tax dollar because I'm an obstinate moralist who thinks that drug addicts and the mentally ill deserve these things.
posted by The Straightener at 7:49 PM on November 23, 2007 [6 favorites]
The reason he will be less of a burden is that when a guy stays on the streets he winds up relying on homeless shelters, emergency rooms, prison cells and psych units for his interim housing between long stretches on the streets. These are very expensive, largely tax payer funded services.
On the streets he will be exposed to harsher elements that will result in chronic physical problems that will wind up eventually getting treated regardless of whether he has insurance or not. You can give a guy a room to smoke his rocks in at a fraction of the cost that amputating his toes will cost after a long nights in the cold. After surgery he'll wind up in a hospital bed, maybe for weeks, at an astronomical cost. Maybe he already spends weeks of every winter in hospital beds fighting pneumonia.
But the better part about giving away housing is that beyond these costs, you'll be able to say that you kept someone from having to lose their toes to the elements because you don't think that in a first world nation people should have to go through that regardless of whatever choices they have made in life.
Or you could say, fuck those people, let them lose limbs, let them claw at each other like animals in the streets, let the women get repeatedly raped and let let me pay more for it in the end out of my tax dollar because I'm an obstinate moralist who thinks that drug addicts and the mentally ill deserve these things.
posted by The Straightener at 7:49 PM on November 23, 2007 [6 favorites]
Addiction is a health issue that often leads to crime issues. If you were in charge, which would you deal with first?
posted by LiveLurker at 7:56 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by LiveLurker at 7:56 PM on November 23, 2007
So guess no one is "in-charge" tonight at metafilter?
posted by LiveLurker at 8:09 PM on November 23, 2007
posted by LiveLurker at 8:09 PM on November 23, 2007
Trakker: Sorry--was away for a while. I know you guys don't hate me, and I'm all for a spirited argument, but on this issue I feel like the lone voice and comments like "Jesus fucking Christ" seem like an ad hominem attack.
To address the rest of your otherwise quite reasonable argument, I don't think it's fair for you to summarize my argument (if you did direct that to me) as "the addicts are to blame." But this is a problem not only for the unfortunate people on the Downtown East Side but also for the other residents of the city who deserve to live safely and without their possessions stolen. So when I hear what sounds to me like a blanket defense of everything perpetrated by these individuals as excusable by poverty and unfortunate circumstances I think "Okay, you're right, these people drifted into this life for a variety of tragic reasons. But merely bemoaning the tragedy helps neither them nor the people they steal from."
I've detailed how I would, if I were mayor, leverage the money available by development of this area to truly address each of the residents' real problems. I don't think it's unreasonable to try to get the addicted off whatever substance they're using, if they're stealing several hundred dollars worth of possessions a day to support it, so as to minimize the impact of their addiction on themselves and other people.
I don't think I can state my position any more emphatically or clearly than that. So with respect for your and others' arguments I will now sign off. Good night.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 8:13 PM on November 23, 2007
To address the rest of your otherwise quite reasonable argument, I don't think it's fair for you to summarize my argument (if you did direct that to me) as "the addicts are to blame." But this is a problem not only for the unfortunate people on the Downtown East Side but also for the other residents of the city who deserve to live safely and without their possessions stolen. So when I hear what sounds to me like a blanket defense of everything perpetrated by these individuals as excusable by poverty and unfortunate circumstances I think "Okay, you're right, these people drifted into this life for a variety of tragic reasons. But merely bemoaning the tragedy helps neither them nor the people they steal from."
I've detailed how I would, if I were mayor, leverage the money available by development of this area to truly address each of the residents' real problems. I don't think it's unreasonable to try to get the addicted off whatever substance they're using, if they're stealing several hundred dollars worth of possessions a day to support it, so as to minimize the impact of their addiction on themselves and other people.
I don't think I can state my position any more emphatically or clearly than that. So with respect for your and others' arguments I will now sign off. Good night.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 8:13 PM on November 23, 2007
Thank you for your thoughts and good night, Turtles.
Now...Back to the original topic, which was this short film about Jason and Raven....
posted by LiveLurker at 8:33 PM on November 23, 2007
Now...Back to the original topic, which was this short film about Jason and Raven....
posted by LiveLurker at 8:33 PM on November 23, 2007
Wow, this thread just exploded in comments. I should have known and commented earlier, but I was busy. But to respond to this, from way back:
Feel sorry for the poor: fine. And I know many of these people were dealt a poor hand in life. But I feel sorry for poor but hard working people in South America, or the Phillipines. Poor but dignified people who have no viable option and make due as best they can.
See, I understand this. Several years back I went from a year in the poorer parts of SEA back to Vancouver, and I found myself with a bit of a sympathy deficit. Thing is, it wasn't for the DTES addicts, but for the young punks demonstrating their anger and apathy, collecting coins outside the McDonalds on Granville and generally bemoaning their lot in life. I'd seen people with nothing and no hope of getting more. I looked at these kids and couldn't figure out what they were so damned unhappy about. They didn't have it all, but they had a hell of a good start.
I don't extend that to the addicts. I've seen them in the third world and I've seen them here, and they're not so different. Yes, there are material differences in terms of what's available, but the complete lack of hope is pervasive and not something that can be cleaned off with a good shower.
posted by dreamsign at 8:42 PM on November 23, 2007
Feel sorry for the poor: fine. And I know many of these people were dealt a poor hand in life. But I feel sorry for poor but hard working people in South America, or the Phillipines. Poor but dignified people who have no viable option and make due as best they can.
See, I understand this. Several years back I went from a year in the poorer parts of SEA back to Vancouver, and I found myself with a bit of a sympathy deficit. Thing is, it wasn't for the DTES addicts, but for the young punks demonstrating their anger and apathy, collecting coins outside the McDonalds on Granville and generally bemoaning their lot in life. I'd seen people with nothing and no hope of getting more. I looked at these kids and couldn't figure out what they were so damned unhappy about. They didn't have it all, but they had a hell of a good start.
I don't extend that to the addicts. I've seen them in the third world and I've seen them here, and they're not so different. Yes, there are material differences in terms of what's available, but the complete lack of hope is pervasive and not something that can be cleaned off with a good shower.
posted by dreamsign at 8:42 PM on November 23, 2007
You know who has real problems? People who've had their televisions stolen. Fuck that's rough.
That's a cheap shot. I'm not sure if you have had your house or apartment broken into, but I have (they stole $3000 in cash), and it's not nice. My sister, who lives in Burnaby, had her place broken into - they stole her jewelry. She was terrified of the place after that.
Most of us work hard for the possessions that give us a certain quality of life. We don't deserve to have it taken from us and sold for crack cocaine.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:24 PM on November 23, 2007
That's a cheap shot. I'm not sure if you have had your house or apartment broken into, but I have (they stole $3000 in cash), and it's not nice. My sister, who lives in Burnaby, had her place broken into - they stole her jewelry. She was terrified of the place after that.
Most of us work hard for the possessions that give us a certain quality of life. We don't deserve to have it taken from us and sold for crack cocaine.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:24 PM on November 23, 2007
The Straightener: I'm not sure who you are arguing against here.
In this specific instance, the people in this video are housed. Not well, I will grant you, but they are not "on the streets". Not everyone in Vancouver is so lucky - though "luck" may not be the right word here.
In addition addicts in the DTES already have a city-sponsored safe room in which to shoot up. So they have the things you say would help - and I believe few people in Vancouver would argue for taking them away - but does this look like success to you?
posted by pascal at 11:54 PM on November 23, 2007
In this specific instance, the people in this video are housed. Not well, I will grant you, but they are not "on the streets". Not everyone in Vancouver is so lucky - though "luck" may not be the right word here.
In addition addicts in the DTES already have a city-sponsored safe room in which to shoot up. So they have the things you say would help - and I believe few people in Vancouver would argue for taking them away - but does this look like success to you?
posted by pascal at 11:54 PM on November 23, 2007
PigAlien, you nailed it. This is a love story. It's impossible to imagine two more disadvantaged people, but their reliance on each other is absolutely genuine. Reduce two people to their most dire conditions, and watch them help each other. I was moved.
posted by cooper green at 1:13 AM on November 24, 2007
posted by cooper green at 1:13 AM on November 24, 2007
We don't deserve to have it taken from us and sold for crack cocaine.
And moreover, sold for ten or twenty cents on the dollar.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 7:46 AM on November 24, 2007
And moreover, sold for ten or twenty cents on the dollar.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 7:46 AM on November 24, 2007
The Straightener: I'm not sure who you are arguing against here.
I'm trying to clarify that social services targeted towards chronically homeless individuals do work, but they may not provide the kind of immediate results people expect. So someone saying, "if there's so many social services in this area why are crackheads stealing my TV?" shows me they don't really grasp what it is that social services are trying to accomplish in areas like this. The first step is to try to keep someone from freezing to death and stop constantly utilizing the most expensive tax payer services. Getting people to stop stealing TV's isn't even on the agenda, and won't be on the agenda until the person in question is ready to stop using. It might be years before that comes up as a goal the client wants to acheive. These are deeply intractable behaviors; change takes time.
Harm reduction is wild stuff, if you work in a harm reduction program you are going to watch your clients continue to engage in bad behavior. You have to continually strain to not come down harshly on clients because they've done something you think is dumb, crazy or harmful. It's hard working intensively with someone, feeling like you've made progress with them only to find out they got locked up for doing the same dumb shit they got locked up doing before.
Traditional social service models required people to be clean and sober in order to access basic services like housing, and therefore a lot of people who were the most in need of housing were kept out on the streets because they weren't ready to comply. It was punitive and more costly to tax payers. The agencies who lorded housing over addicts were paternalistic, and not surprisingly resentments grew between the consumers and the people who were supposed to be serving them. My life as a social worker is made extremely difficult by all the social workers who came before me who punished clients for "not behaving." That is how you erect barriers between you and the consumer, it sows distrust, and in the end is counterproductive.
But I can also address the "so because they are addicts it excuses their behavior" comments. Dudes, as a case manager who works for an agency that serves almost every homeless addict in Philly, I can tell you that criminal behavior is not excused. If my client stole your TV, I would want him locked up for that. I'll still go see him in prison, and we'll talk about why he's locked up, and how that reflects on his life, and how that should probably impact his choices regarding his drug use, but I would want to see him locked up if he took something that didn't belong to him. I think most case managers are on the same page with this.
posted by The Straightener at 8:31 AM on November 24, 2007
I'm trying to clarify that social services targeted towards chronically homeless individuals do work, but they may not provide the kind of immediate results people expect. So someone saying, "if there's so many social services in this area why are crackheads stealing my TV?" shows me they don't really grasp what it is that social services are trying to accomplish in areas like this. The first step is to try to keep someone from freezing to death and stop constantly utilizing the most expensive tax payer services. Getting people to stop stealing TV's isn't even on the agenda, and won't be on the agenda until the person in question is ready to stop using. It might be years before that comes up as a goal the client wants to acheive. These are deeply intractable behaviors; change takes time.
Harm reduction is wild stuff, if you work in a harm reduction program you are going to watch your clients continue to engage in bad behavior. You have to continually strain to not come down harshly on clients because they've done something you think is dumb, crazy or harmful. It's hard working intensively with someone, feeling like you've made progress with them only to find out they got locked up for doing the same dumb shit they got locked up doing before.
Traditional social service models required people to be clean and sober in order to access basic services like housing, and therefore a lot of people who were the most in need of housing were kept out on the streets because they weren't ready to comply. It was punitive and more costly to tax payers. The agencies who lorded housing over addicts were paternalistic, and not surprisingly resentments grew between the consumers and the people who were supposed to be serving them. My life as a social worker is made extremely difficult by all the social workers who came before me who punished clients for "not behaving." That is how you erect barriers between you and the consumer, it sows distrust, and in the end is counterproductive.
But I can also address the "so because they are addicts it excuses their behavior" comments. Dudes, as a case manager who works for an agency that serves almost every homeless addict in Philly, I can tell you that criminal behavior is not excused. If my client stole your TV, I would want him locked up for that. I'll still go see him in prison, and we'll talk about why he's locked up, and how that reflects on his life, and how that should probably impact his choices regarding his drug use, but I would want to see him locked up if he took something that didn't belong to him. I think most case managers are on the same page with this.
posted by The Straightener at 8:31 AM on November 24, 2007
Turtles: "But merely bemoaning the tragedy helps neither them nor the people they steal from."
Its not about bemoaning the tragedy. Its about understanding the true nature of their situation without instantly jumping to a conclusion. It seems to me that there are too many people shooting from the hip in reaction to what they see. So instead of really connecting with the problem, all they see is a shell of a person doing bad things. And instead of having compassion for the person caught up in the mess, and trying to understand why they are there in the first place and what they are actually going through, the focus is put on how they behave. The real problem isn't property crime, this is just an effect. (not that you specifically see it this way, but this seems to be a common perspective).
The Straightener: "But I can also address the "so because they are addicts it excuses their behavior" comments."
I agree with your last post here. I've made comments which may have been misunderstood as "excusing their criminal behavior". Even though the urge to steal in order to get the money to do the drugs, I still think they should be responsible for their actions. Responsibility should still exist even if you are not completely in control of yourself.
posted by Trakker at 10:25 AM on November 24, 2007
Its not about bemoaning the tragedy. Its about understanding the true nature of their situation without instantly jumping to a conclusion. It seems to me that there are too many people shooting from the hip in reaction to what they see. So instead of really connecting with the problem, all they see is a shell of a person doing bad things. And instead of having compassion for the person caught up in the mess, and trying to understand why they are there in the first place and what they are actually going through, the focus is put on how they behave. The real problem isn't property crime, this is just an effect. (not that you specifically see it this way, but this seems to be a common perspective).
The Straightener: "But I can also address the "so because they are addicts it excuses their behavior" comments."
I agree with your last post here. I've made comments which may have been misunderstood as "excusing their criminal behavior". Even though the urge to steal in order to get the money to do the drugs, I still think they should be responsible for their actions. Responsibility should still exist even if you are not completely in control of yourself.
posted by Trakker at 10:25 AM on November 24, 2007
I was moved.
cooper green: I was too, honestly. What this documentary brings home is that these are people, who like everyone else have their virtues and their flaws. I guess what I object to is the response that these people are victims of poverty, full stop. Talk to anyone in this area and you will see, variously, intelligence, humour, enterprise and caring. The solution to getting these individuals out of this terrible situation depends upon recognizing this. That means not only recognizing their virtues and the external circumstances that have landed them in this situation but also their weaknesses. I fear that approaching these people with the viewpoint that "You are noble, golden individuals that have been faced with insurmountable obstacles that will never be sufficiently redressed" dooms the enterprise to failure.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 11:01 AM on November 24, 2007
cooper green: I was too, honestly. What this documentary brings home is that these are people, who like everyone else have their virtues and their flaws. I guess what I object to is the response that these people are victims of poverty, full stop. Talk to anyone in this area and you will see, variously, intelligence, humour, enterprise and caring. The solution to getting these individuals out of this terrible situation depends upon recognizing this. That means not only recognizing their virtues and the external circumstances that have landed them in this situation but also their weaknesses. I fear that approaching these people with the viewpoint that "You are noble, golden individuals that have been faced with insurmountable obstacles that will never be sufficiently redressed" dooms the enterprise to failure.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 11:01 AM on November 24, 2007
East Hastings has a powerful vibe about it. It's like the physical coalescence of the most depressive thoughts humanity has ever had.
posted by tehloki at 1:11 PM on November 24, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by tehloki at 1:11 PM on November 24, 2007 [1 favorite]
I got about 4 seconds into it and the first thought I have is "pity porn." Pass.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:37 PM on November 24, 2007
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:37 PM on November 24, 2007
I adore Vancouver, lived here for 15 years. Having said that, I am moving away before my infant daughter gets to school age. The reason stems from the ass-backwards culture of the city, namely the existence and tolerance for the cesspool that is the DTES. By no means will my daughter grow up to think that it's 'normal' for a city to have such a zone. I have traveled extensively and have never seen anything close to the depravity that exists here, not to mention the apathy that allows it to fester-on.
As far as the residents of the area go, I have all the sympathy a 6-time victim of a smashed car window can have. I want the government to do something positive for the area (for once) although I know that won't happen until we get closer to the Olympics... and then it'll be a quick-fix that no one will like. But to me: less homeless, drug addicted zombies on the streets = better city.
And someone please tell me: how much sympathy am I supposed to have for the aggressive meth/crack/heroin addicted thief that shoots-up in the open, in broad daylight (because the police allow it) and leaves needles in the sand boxes and near the swing-sets?
I assume the armchair morality police in here consider me a bad person because I do fear these people and I don't want them loose in my city. So be it.
posted by weezy at 2:00 PM on November 24, 2007 [2 favorites]
As far as the residents of the area go, I have all the sympathy a 6-time victim of a smashed car window can have. I want the government to do something positive for the area (for once) although I know that won't happen until we get closer to the Olympics... and then it'll be a quick-fix that no one will like. But to me: less homeless, drug addicted zombies on the streets = better city.
And someone please tell me: how much sympathy am I supposed to have for the aggressive meth/crack/heroin addicted thief that shoots-up in the open, in broad daylight (because the police allow it) and leaves needles in the sand boxes and near the swing-sets?
I assume the armchair morality police in here consider me a bad person because I do fear these people and I don't want them loose in my city. So be it.
posted by weezy at 2:00 PM on November 24, 2007 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, I just wanted to add a couple of things for those of you who could be wondering why the Vancouver Mefites seem, perhaps, less "compassionate" on the subject than you might expect. First, the question of property crime and theft is a big one here, like the question of real estate: it's a matter of where the city has gone wrong, and where it's heading. I can bitch about the drug-related crime that I and my family have experienced and still feel compassion for the vastly complicated place that is the DTES; can acknowledge the despair and hopelessness there as well as appreciate the strength of the community, and admire its efforts to care for its own. I personally feel that it should be treated as a health issue, first and foremost, and that one of the keys for change in the DTES is secure housing. Give people that, and access to care for their disabilities, if neccessary, and a place in detox without a wait list, as well, and there would be change. It would be slow, and would never be complete. But it would be a start, at least. I have a lot of friends who work in the DTES, and you quickly learn that you judge success in small increments.
The DTES is a stain on the conscience of the city, and there's a lot of grief and guilt in Vancouver over the naked suffering there, enough to make some of us defensive about it. Because we know that more-- or more appropriate-- help is needed, and we also know that this city is currently run by developers in pursuit of property dollars (preferably off-shore dollars). And we know how culpable the Vancouver Police Department (and by extension, the rest of the city) was in refusing to believe that all those cases of missing womenwere related. So if you're wondering how generally liberal and good hearted Vancouver Mefites can, when the DTES is brought up, act perhaps out of character, recognize that you are walking into a deeply nuanced conversation that we've been having for years.
posted by jokeefe at 2:20 PM on November 24, 2007 [2 favorites]
The DTES is a stain on the conscience of the city, and there's a lot of grief and guilt in Vancouver over the naked suffering there, enough to make some of us defensive about it. Because we know that more-- or more appropriate-- help is needed, and we also know that this city is currently run by developers in pursuit of property dollars (preferably off-shore dollars). And we know how culpable the Vancouver Police Department (and by extension, the rest of the city) was in refusing to believe that all those cases of missing womenwere related. So if you're wondering how generally liberal and good hearted Vancouver Mefites can, when the DTES is brought up, act perhaps out of character, recognize that you are walking into a deeply nuanced conversation that we've been having for years.
posted by jokeefe at 2:20 PM on November 24, 2007 [2 favorites]
weezy: I live in Mt. Pleasant, and one of the first things my son learned in school was never, ever, to touch a used syringe lying on the playground. So, yeah.
posted by jokeefe at 2:23 PM on November 24, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by jokeefe at 2:23 PM on November 24, 2007 [2 favorites]
Turtles: "I fear that approaching these people with the viewpoint that "You are noble, golden individuals that have been faced with insurmountable obstacles that will never be sufficiently redressed" dooms the enterprise to failure."
I still think you are missing the point. I don't think anyone is saying that we need to put those in this situation on a pedestal and worship them as these great martyrs of a shitty life. This is just going from one extreme to the other.
And to abstract the area as a problem itself is to objectify and clump everyone there in to one stereotype. Each person has their own set of problems, and each one has to be addressed individually. Sure, you can go and displace everyone, say for the olympics, but that doesn't really fix anything. Its just moving the problems to different locations.
I seem to be defining the problem as "The reasons people are doing drugs, etc". The viewpoint that I am challenging is the definition of the problem as "Crime and needles in parks".
Fix the reasons why people do the drugs and the crime and needles go away. Otherwise it is like wishing for a new technology that would zap these people in to an invisible dimension just so that they stay out of everyone else's way.
Although I think giving them safe houses to do the drugs and even providing them the drugs is a step in the right direction, we really need to be spending money on researching the problem, providing and experimenting with new therapies and teaching these people effective ways of dealing with their problems. As well as working on prevention. This is a long term project that we really haven't started yet.
posted by Trakker at 3:35 PM on November 24, 2007
I still think you are missing the point. I don't think anyone is saying that we need to put those in this situation on a pedestal and worship them as these great martyrs of a shitty life. This is just going from one extreme to the other.
And to abstract the area as a problem itself is to objectify and clump everyone there in to one stereotype. Each person has their own set of problems, and each one has to be addressed individually. Sure, you can go and displace everyone, say for the olympics, but that doesn't really fix anything. Its just moving the problems to different locations.
I seem to be defining the problem as "The reasons people are doing drugs, etc". The viewpoint that I am challenging is the definition of the problem as "Crime and needles in parks".
Fix the reasons why people do the drugs and the crime and needles go away. Otherwise it is like wishing for a new technology that would zap these people in to an invisible dimension just so that they stay out of everyone else's way.
Although I think giving them safe houses to do the drugs and even providing them the drugs is a step in the right direction, we really need to be spending money on researching the problem, providing and experimenting with new therapies and teaching these people effective ways of dealing with their problems. As well as working on prevention. This is a long term project that we really haven't started yet.
posted by Trakker at 3:35 PM on November 24, 2007
"Fix the reasons why people do the drugs and the crime and needles go away."
...and you win the Nobel Prize. Not gonna happen. ever.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:39 PM on November 24, 2007
...and you win the Nobel Prize. Not gonna happen. ever.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:39 PM on November 24, 2007
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posted by darth_tedious at 1:41 PM on November 23, 2007