Comments on: Gossip of the Sewing Circle

Gossip of the Sewing Circle

maryh — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 03:32:30 -0800

Gossip of the Sewing Circle Profound cattiness from 1903. Learn to use such snarkily coded terms as embonpoint in everyday conversation. Need to shame a beautiful rival who hasn't produced an heir for her much older husband? Describe her in The Newsaper of Record as owning "an extremely clever parrot." PDF, link from the NYT Archives.

By: maryh

maryh — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 03:45:54 -0800

It wouldn't truly be mine without a typo in the FPP. I like to think of it as my 'style.'

By: goo

goo — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 03:51:53 -0800

Great stuff, maryh! 1903 Gossip Girl. I'm surprised at how much of it is focussed on London.

By: These Premises Are Alarmed

These Premises Are Alarmed — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 04:33:39 -0800

Fantastic! (Hopefully their reporting was better on that sub-culture than it was with "grunge speak".)

By: kittens for breakfast

kittens for breakfast — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 05:51:05 -0800

Fantastic! (Hopefully their reporting was better on that sub-culture than it was with "grunge speak".) (Off the ostensible topic, but I have to say: Megan Jasper most assuredly did not invent the terms "score!," "dish," or "rock on," though I don't think anyone outside of a movie from the 1950s has ever said of anyone, "whatta dish.")

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 05:57:03 -0800

Hilarious and yet sad, in a way. What a limited scope these women had. Voluntarily, sure, but still. Also, since no MeFi discussion would be complete without a digression into typography, I love that old-skool headline font. Check it out here too: ANNIVERSARY OF THE WAR'S ORIGIN; A Year Ago Tomorrow the Austrian Archduke, Franz Ferdinand, Was Assassinated at Serajevo.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 06:50:52 -0800

Voluntarily, sure, but still. If by "voluntarily" you mean "choosing to go on living in a world which provided almost no outlet for women's talents and ambitions other than homemaking and frivolity," then sure, voluntarily. I'd love to know more about this column: who wrote it, how did she get the job, how sought-after was she, how evilly did she use her position to reward and punish? There must be answers to these questions in some musty memoir that will never be digitized...

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:08:58 -0800

Context acknowledged and appreciated, lh, my feminist friend. I was thinking of intellectual scope. Note this bit, from that very page: "London is also responsible for a new club for women--the Athenaeum. This will have three objects--literature, music and politics... Mrs. Stuyvesant Fish has some idea of trying to get up a club in New York where women will study political questions in other times than campaign months. More interest in politics has been shown by New York women this year than ever before." In other words, New York women had *on occasion* devoted their attention to politics. And in the revered city of London, the ladies were even setting up clubs to discuss such things! So some women were in fact seeking out intellectual pursuits slightly more challenging than needlework and pets.* *Not to say anything unfriendly about either of those things, as those who know me will attest that I am loopy about both.

By: headspace

headspace — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:23:48 -0800

What the hell, intellectual scope, GrammarMoses? In 1903, Mary McDowell organized the Chicago Stockyards Strike, the year before, Mother Jones organized the anthracite coal strike, and by 1903, suffragettes had already secured the vote for women in Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho and Utah. We were already worrying our pretty little heads over politics (among other things), not to mention nearly 60% of us being part of the workforce as meatcutters, blacksmiths, printsetters, nailers, and more. Just because the Gilded Age conspired to pretend that women weren't working, and weren't active in politics, doesn't make it true. Looking at Sewing Circle gossip and assuming it's any kind of real picture of women of that era is like looking at Oh No They Didn't and assuming it offers a complete view of the feminine mind in 2007.

By: headspace

headspace — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:26:24 -0800

Any kind of *full* picture. It's obviously a real picture, just like the absurd obsession with Paris Hilton's dog is real now. It's real, just not complete.

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:46:23 -0800

It's obviously a real picture, just like the absurd obsession with Paris Hilton's dog is real now. It's real, just not complete. headspace, that's what I meant by "these women." The women for whom this column was presumably written, and who appear in it. I don't mean all women of the era. I could certainly have been clearer about that. Similarly, I think that women (and men) who spend a significant amount of time thinking about Paris Hilton's dog and whether Jen and Brad are still secretly in love and who will win of Survivor XXVIII are not manifesting much intellectual scope. Is this really a controversial position?

By: intermod

intermod — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 07:58:28 -0800

Link doesn't work for me. Sigh.

By: headspace

headspace — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:02:04 -0800

It is when your follow-up to languagehat encompasses New York ladies and London ladies, two cities which, dear reader, I think we can agree encompassed rather more than the ladies on the day's equivalent of the Society pages. Two people didn't get ruffled on a lazy Sunday morning because you were perfectly clear. Either you misspoke, or you overassumed, and there's nothing wrong with admitting either.

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:07:29 -0800

Either you misspoke, or you overassumed, and there's nothing wrong with admitting either. Oh, ffs, headspace. I will spell it out for you very explicitly so that you can get over yourself: In other words, New York SOCIETY women had *on occasion* devoted their attention to politics. And in the revered city of London, the SOCIETY ladies were even setting up clubs to discuss such things! So some SOCIETY women were in fact seeking out intellectual pursuits slightly more challenging than needlework and pets. Jee. Bus.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:47:51 -0800

Has anyone seen my molehill? I left it right here, but now there seems to be a mountain in its stead.

By: maggiemaggie

maggiemaggie — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:58:56 -0800

Wait - I was actually impressed by their accomplishments. The Duchess of Marlborough, who is known all over England as "the pretty American Duchess"...The press of England also call her "the political Duchess," as they say she has a wonderful knowledge of international politics and makes a special study of English affairs. She has been of the greatest assistance to her husband in his career. He is very ambitious but he has not the savoir faire which she posesses or the way of winning over voters and constituents. Miss Clermont Best...It is at her cottage at Newport that many of the recitals and lectures of the summer are given, and she is always the first to lend a helping hand to the struggling musician or lecturer who comes to the City by the Sea in order to obtain recognition from Society for a Winter's campaign Miss Hazel Martyn...has studied art, and held an exhibition of her pictures last year in Chicago. She went to Paris last year and did some excellent work... Let's see Paris Hilton top that.

By: bigskyguy

bigskyguy — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 09:08:41 -0800

Avoiding the larger issues expressed, I center on the issue of lard. Embonpoint. My new word. Those I dub adipose are starting to catch on. And here's pronunciation help: Embonpoint (Click on the speaker icon) And Intermod, may I suggest the excellent Foxit Reader for you. Unless you have a Mac. Then I can only commend you for your extremely clever parrot.

By: ClaudiaCenter

ClaudiaCenter — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 09:42:34 -0800

I lurve the NYT archives. The other day I went back and read the entire paper for that day, 100 years ago. Although the writing style was different, it was amazing how much was the same as a newspaper today -- story about financial scandal; story about the harms of alcohol and tobacco; story about whether prayer should be in public school; story about cost overruns at the current public works project; "human interest" story re colorful character (my day it was a guy who was walking across the US).

By: nickyskye

nickyskye — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:05:31 -0800

maryh, never noticed your typos before, thought I claimed that 'style' for myself. :> Tartly fun article, thanks for posting it. Polishing their claws and talons with finesse, What I got from GrammarMoses saying "What a limited scope these women had. Voluntarily, sure, but still." was that these women had a choice whether or not to be catty, sniping at others or to gossip. I think well articulated, witty contempt for and nit-picking ridicule of others was considered to be an intrinsic part of the entitlement of the upper classes, maybe even a defining mark of that class. What came to my mind was the excellent movie, Ridicule. Loved knowing the new vocab, embonpoint. A pretty word. There's a NYC sandwich,soup/salad place named au bon pain, which I'm going to deliberately misread as embonpoint from now on. Tried finding out the author of the article with no luck. All's I could come up with were other 1903 New York Times Magazine Supplement articles written similarly. Here's another fun one along the same lines -also pdf: Heard In Club Corners. Interesting grammar in the original article, such as "Miss Ivy Gordon Lennox, the only daughter of Lady Algernon Lennox, has been put at a finishing school in Dresden." " put at a finishing school". Put at? Trying to think of any other English phrase similar, put to sleep, put out to pasture, put on the stove, put in the box, just never heard put at anything before. When did they start and stop calling anyone Algernon? Interesting name.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:45:35 -0800

Surprised no one's picked up on (Dame) Ethyl Smyth, who "composed an opera Der Wald which was brought out at the Metropolitan Opera house." As to raccoons- ancestress of a friend of mine had one about that time. Most notable story there was when the family returned from church one morning and found the critter in the sink, washing the diamonds it had found in an upstairs jewelry box.

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:54:19 -0800

This is wonderful, thanks. Mrs. Stuyvesant Fish. That is a name. I will name my next cat that.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:07:28 -0800

Oh, and for another contemporary usage of embonpoint (also society related, as it happens), see Art Is Calling For Me, from The Enchantress (1911)by Victor Herbert. Fun stuff. I long to be a prima donna, donna, donna I long to shine upon the stage I have the embonpoint To become a queen of song And my figure would look pretty as a page I want to be a screechy peachy cantatrice Like other plump girls that I see I hate society I hate propriety Art is calling for me!

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:09:51 -0800

In other words, New York women had *on occasion* devoted their attention to politics. And in the revered city of London, the ladies were even setting up clubs to discuss such things! So some women were in fact seeking out intellectual pursuits slightly more challenging than needlework and pets Oh, absolutely. I added the "almost" to account for exceptions, but I guess I could have toned it down further. Still, to be a bluestocking back then took a lot more self-confidence and willingness to head-butt the consensus of society, as I'm sure you agree. What came to my mind was the excellent movie, Ridicule. I enthusiastically second this recommendation.

By: Skeptic

Skeptic — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:09:54 -0800

LobsterMitten, Mr. Stuyvesant Fish was quite an important person in his time. And maggiemaggie, I doubt indeed that Paris Hilton will ever match the biography of Consuelo Vanderbilt, Duchess of Marlborough.

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:36:27 -0800

LH, roger that. BTW, Head-butting the Consensus is so the name of my next album. Where the Stuyvesant Fish family lived. Latter-day scions of the Stuyvesant Fish family discussed here. (Also part of the illustrious NYC family back in the day was a well-known merchant in mercantile and shipping ventures named Preserved Fish. Honest.)

By: nickyskye

nickyskye — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:39:48 -0800

washing the diamonds it had found in an upstairs jewelry box What a charming anecdote and image! And seconding Mrs. Stuyvesant Fish, definitely a good cat's name.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:43:40 -0800

I'd love to know more about this column: who wrote it, how did she get the job, how sought-after was she, how evilly did she use her position to reward and punish? There must be answers to these questions in some musty memoir that will never be digitized... Or, one could read Edith Wharton, particularly The Custom of the Country, which opens with the book's main character, Undine (not subtle, but oh well) reading the society page and feverishly working out all the relations between the families and who had slightly higher, or lower, status. And plotting her ascent. Some of the diaries of the time are also excellent windows into this world-- I love Cynthia Asquith's Diaries of 1915-1918, which are obviously written in a very differrent period than this society page, but which include a great deal of reflection on the social world before the war. (She was the sister-in-law of the Mrs. Asquith mentioned in the NYT piece.)

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:44:47 -0800

^^^ I mean daughter in law, not sister. Also, I do know how to spell different, on my good days.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:45:18 -0800

Preserved Fish. Honest. One of my favorite names (and one of my favorite cemeteries). I'm pretty sure, by the way, that "Preserved" as a name has three syllables.

By: gatchaman

gatchaman — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 12:09:50 -0800

Need to shame a beautiful rival who hasn't produced an heir for her much older husband? Describe her in The Newsaper of Record as owning "an extremely clever parrot." Until us girlies can settle such matters by farting matches we cannot claim to have progressed. That Stuyvesant Fish woman though, ugh. There's a lengthy description of her in the book War Paint by Lindy Woodshead. What a complete cow.

By: nickyskye

nickyskye — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:12:27 -0800

Skeptic, Just spent the last hour reading about Consuelo Vanderbilt, Duchess of Marlborough. wow, What a story. The Stuyvesant Fish townhouse has just been bought by the Mayor of NYC. The Stuyvesant Fish house on Gramercy Park is now part of the Cooper Union School. The Stuyvesant part of the name came from Peter Stuyvesant, one of the founders of NYC and the Fish part came from a Revolutionary war hero. Enjoying savoring this little piece of layer cake of history.

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:55:51 -0800

Thank you everyone for research about Stuyvesant and Preserved Fish - I didn't know that; way cool. I can get two cats. (My neighbors used to name their cats after old-money New England society sounding names. Obadiah Hakewell was one I remember.) My sister just had a baby -- last name Hall. Much speculation about whether he should be named "Kidsinna", "Tajma", etc.

By: nickyskye

nickyskye — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 15:42:49 -0800

Kidsinna Hall, Tajma Hall. OW! I named my baby pet goat Billy The Kid.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:19:54 -0800

Obadiah Hakewell was one I remember. Sure that wasn't Hakeswill? Getting back the Fishes, there's a whole school of them. They're making fertilizer in various cemetaries. They also have a connection to the Keans of New Jersey, which should come as no great surprise.

By: katinka-katinka

katinka-katinka — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:31:03 -0800

I ran across a regular column about biking that was in the NYT around the same time called "Gossip of the Cyclers."

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:43:55 -0800

Obadiah Hakeswill!! I never knew! Thank you IndigoJ!

By: intermod

intermod — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:58:34 -0800

Could be that I was the only one with the problem, but I can view it now. Turns out that I was blocking cookies from query.nytimes.com -- I'm ultraparanoid about cookies, blocking them unless needed. In this case, accepting them for the session did the trick. This is probably the case for an NYT archive articles ... this is the first time I've delved in there since they killed the Times Select boondoggle. Anyway, FYI, and thanks maryh for the link.

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:23:28 -0800

Fishes: thanks for that, IndigoJones. I notice there's even a George W. Fish -- just two characters away from the presidency... Also, what could be a better name for a (presumably) fish-eating cat than Hakeswill? Fantastic.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:06:29 -0800

Oh, snap! GM, I didn't even notice that.