Subscribe(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:Now, IANAL, and I think this point is mooted by some earlier comments, but doesn't the fact that the clause "during the nighttime" occurs twice in 2A imply that "during the nighttime" doesn't apply to the list of offenses as a whole? In other words, wouldn't it imply this?
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson at any time of day, burglary at any time of day, robbery at any time of day, aggravated robbery at any time of day, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; orJust wondering. I can't say I'm too supportive of what this man has done.
What do you expect from a state whose unofficial motto is a threat?
What do you expect from a state whose unofficial motto is a threat?Referring to a certain anti-littering campaign, I suppose? For the love of god, please do not start that up again. The constant anti-South/anti-Texas crowing and chauvinism here are wholly unjustified.
Referring to a certain anti-littering campaign, I suppose?
Ynoxas: Some people look for racism everywhere, and I mean everywhere. Do people even realize how ridiculous they sound when they play "the race card" in situations like this?"Wouldn't be surprised," is hardly a strong or ridiculous position on Horn's motivations, racially motivated or not. Especially considering your average reporters' leading questions. Since we can't possibly know what was going on in Mr. Horn's head and he, with clear, stated intent, undertook actions that put him in the public spotlight, it seems fair to question his motives. Hero or vigilante, one clear consequence of killing others without due process is that people will question your motives.
Associated Press: After Sunday's counter-protest, he said he doesn't know if the shootings were racially motivated but said he "wouldn't be surprised."
"Yoshihiro Hattori was a Japanese exchange student residing in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, at the time of his death. Hattori was on his way to a Halloween party when he mistook the address and entered the wrong suburban property. The property owner, Rodney Peairs, mortally wounded Hattori with gunfire, thinking he was trespassing with criminal intent. The controversial homicide, and Peairs' subsequent acquittal in the state court of Louisiana, received worldwide attention....Two months into his stay in the United States, [Hattori] received an invitation along with Webb Haymaker, his homestay brother, to a Halloween party organized for Japanese exchange students on October 17, 1992. Hattori went dressed in a tuxedo in imitation of John Travolta from Saturday Night Fever. Upon their arrival in the quiet working class neighborhood where the party was held, the boys mistook the Peairs' residence for the intended destination due to the similarity of the address and the Halloween decorations on the house, and proceeded to step out of their car and walk to the front door. Hattori and Haymaker rang the front doorbell but began to walk back to the street where Haymaker had parked receiving no response to the ring. Inside the house, however, Bonnie Peairs had peered out the side door and saw two boys whom she did not recognize. Mrs. Peairs, startled, retreated inside, locking the door, and turned to tell her husband, 'Rodney, get your gun.' Hattori and Haymaker were still pondering the situation as they neared their car when the carport door was opened again, this time by Mr. Peairs, armed with a stainless steel revolver, yelling 'Freeze.' Simultaneously, Hattori stepped towards him saying 'We're here for the party,' unaware of the imminent danger. Haymaker, seeing the weapon, shouted after Hattori, but in vain as Peairs had already fired his weapon and run back inside, locking the door again. Hattori was shot in the chest at close range...[and subsequently died from the wound]."*
In a separate civil trial " [a] judge...awarded more than $650,000 in damages and funeral costs to the parents of a Japanese exchange student, saying there was 'no justification whatsoever' for the killing of the 16-year-old boy who approached a suburban homeowner's door in a Halloween costume..."*
'[the teenage burglar who was killed] had pleaded for his life, shouting: "I'm sorry. Please don't. Mum."'
'Peter Tidey, the chief crown prosecutor for Norfolk, said: "Actions such as that taken by Tony Martin cannot be tolerated in a civilised society. When people break the law it is for the law to punish them, not for individuals to take the law into their own hands, whether acting out of revenge or their own individual system of justice."'
“‘I've got a shotgun,’ Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. ‘Do you want me to stop them?’It appears that Horn hardly knew the neighbors and that he was surprised that a burglary was going on in his neighborhood. I say emotion and irrationality got the best of him -- and that this was a rare event for him to experience. He should of listened to the dispatcher.
‘Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?’ the dispatcher responded.
‘Hurry up man, catch these guys, will you? 'Cause I'm ain't gonna let 'em go, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm not gonna let 'em go. I'm not gonna let 'em get away with this.’
‘…I don't know if they're armed or not. I know they got a crowbar 'cause that's what they broke the windows with. ... Man, this is scary, I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood.’
‘…I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot.’
‘Stay inside the house and don't go out there, OK?’ the dispatcher said. ‘I know you're pissed off, I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting somebody over this, OK?’
‘I don't want to,’ Horn said, ‘but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?
‘No, I don't want you to go out there, I just asked if you could see anything out there.’
The dispatcher asks if a vehicle could be seen; Horn said no. The dispatcher again says Horn should stay inside the house.
Almost five minutes into the call, police had not arrived.
‘I can't see if [the suspects are] getting away or not,’ Horn said.
Horn told the dispatcher that he doesn't know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. ‘I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well,’ he said.
Dispatcher: ‘I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?’
Horn: ‘Yes?’
Dispatcher: ‘I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there.’
Horn: ‘I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it.’
Dispatcher: ‘I understand.’
Horn: ‘I have a right to protect myself ...’
Dispatcher: ‘I'm ...’
Horn: ‘And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon.’
Dispatcher: ‘No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ...’
Horn: ‘OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. ‘
Dispatcher: ‘No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn...’
Horn: ‘They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this --. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!’
Dispatcher: ‘Mister, do not go outside the house.’
Horn: ‘I'm sorry, this ain't right, buddy.’
Dispatcher: ‘You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think.’
Horn: ‘You wanna make a bet?’
Dispatcher: ‘Stay in the house.’
Horn: ‘There, one of them's getting away!
Dispatcher: ‘That's alright, property's not something worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house, don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pissed and you're frustrated but don't do it.’
Horn: ‘They got a bag of loot.’
Dispatcher: ‘OK. How big is the bag?’ He then talks off, relaying the information.
Dispatcher: ‘Which way are they going?’
Horn: ‘I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out.’
Dispatcher: ‘I don't want you going outside, Mister...’
Horn: ‘Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going.’
Dispatcher: ‘Don't go outside.’
On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.
‘Boom! You're dead!’ he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again.
Then Horn is back on the phone:
‘Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man.’
Dispatcher: ‘Mister Horn, are you out there right now?’
Horn: ‘No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the -- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?’
Dispatcher: ‘Did you shoot somebody?
Horn: ‘Yes, I did, the cops are here right now.’
Dispatcher: ‘Where are you right now?’
Horn: ‘I'm inside the house. ...’
Dispatcher: ‘Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on.’
Horn: ‘I am in the front yard right now. I am ...’
Dispatcher: ‘Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there...’
Horn: ‘I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now.’
Dispatcher: ‘You don't have a gun with you, do you?
Horn: ‘No, no, no.’
Dispatcher: ‘You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else.’
Yelling is heard.
Dispatcher: ‘Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now.’”
“Experts who reviewed a recording of the call at the Chronicle's request said the dispatcher handled the call professionally and did all he could to defuse the situation until police arrived.
‘He was doing everything he could to 'normalize' the conversation and not agitate the caller any further,’ said Sue Pivetta, a training consultant from Sumner, Wash. ‘Trust me when I say that he was indeed showing professional control at the highest level.’
Charles Carter, a former police executive in Atlanta who has trained dispatchers for two decades, said the officer who handled Horn's call used proven techniques to dissuade him from leaving his home.
‘We teach a technique called repetitive persistence,’ Carter said. ‘It needs to be at a level lower than the person calling to try to get him to calm down and listen to you. ... He did an outstanding job and needs to be commended.’”
"Horn tells the dispatcher that he understands his rights and even makes reference to the September 1 expansion [i.e. Texas signs new self-defense by gun law] that gives homeowners greater protection from prosecution should they choose to confront someone breaking into their home."*
there isn't mention of a right not to keep and bear armsThe enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
"The identities of the men killed were released Friday. They are Miguel Antonio Dejesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30. Official records show that each of them had a prior arrest in Harris County for drug offenses."*
"They want to ask a judge for help in blocking future protesters...neighbors say that playgrounds like this one here in their neighborhood were empty Sunday afternoon...neighbors complained that they had to keep their children inside."*'Free Speech Rights' vs. 'Rights to Swing on the Monkey Bars.'
A Person was killed as a direct result of their felony burglary, therefore they were both murderers as soon as one of them died.
“GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: On September 1, Texas strengthened a law giving civil immunity to people who defend themselves with deadly force, not only in their homes, but in their cars and workplaces. But this was a neighbor's house, and the 911 operator warned Horn 13 times during the call to stay inside his home.
…TUCHMAN: Miguel Antonio Dejesus and Diego Ortiz, two men who had previous minor scrapes with the law, were killed.
…JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Joining me now, Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor.
Jeff, let's start from the beginning. This is fascinating stuff, when you listen to these audio recordings. But Joe Horn has not been charged. Do you think he will be? And, if so, does he have a defense?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, on the letter of the law, it sure looks like he's guilty of probably something, and perhaps even just murder, because think about what he did.
He had -- warned repeatedly not to use his -- not to go out and use his gun. He's told that these there -- there are non-uniform, there are plainclothes officers in the area. And he takes a shotgun out there, which sprays, you know, shot all over the place.
I mean, he engaged in incredibly dangerous behavior, and he killed two people. But, you know, I hate to engage in regional profiling, but this is Texas. And you can see, a lot of people are going to be sympathetic to him.
KING: You mentioned, this is Texas. It's an American tradition, but certainly a frontier tradition; you have the right to protect your own property. Have you ever heard of a right to protect your neighbor's property?
TOOBIN: I never have, but this is why there are grand juries, because grand juries can decide, under all the circumstances, that there's not a -- there's no right to -- that -- that -- that there's no case to be made here.
Certainly, on the facts of these cases, this does not appear to be anything like self-defense, which Texas law and every state's law allows. But, again, the grand jury may say, hey, let him go.
KING: You mentioned the -- the operator at the top. The operator was one cool customer.
TOOBIN: Right.
KING: He repeatedly said, don't go out there, sir, repeatedly said, there are police officers out there, repeatedly said, don't get your gun. Do not do it.
If this case were to go to trial, how much of a problem would that be, the cool and repetitive nature of the warnings?
TOOBIN: You know, we -- we often, in the press, sometimes criticize 911 operators. But, boy, I have to say, I was so impressed by -- by this operator here.
I think it's a big problem for Joe Horn, because this operator is giving precisely the rational, intelligent advice that you would hope someone like this would give.
…KING: And we talked about the operator's demeanor on that call. You just heard Joe Horn there. His attorney has suggested his client was afraid for his safety.
Do you get that sense from listening to the call? And, even if so, is that a defense?
TOOBIN: No. I mean, I read the full transcript, heard this call. He does not appear to be someone who's in a panic. It's a very cool and rather chilling determination to go out and use his gun, against the instructions of the 911 operator.”
"Also, for the first time, investigators revealed the Nov. 14 shooting was witnessed by a plainclothes Pasadena detective, who had pulled up in an unmarked car seconds before Horn fired three shots from his 12-guage shotgun."Interesting.
An interesting followup. The two guys that were shot were illegal immigrants with criminal histories.
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posted by docpops at 8:13 AM on December 5, 2007