Victims of the Rising Tide
December 18, 2007 10:27 AM Subscribe
As the immigration debate rages, Anti-Latino hate crimes rose by almost 35% between 2003 and 2006. Here are a few dozen of them. To some, this trend may seem perfectly FAIR.
To be fair, not every GOP campaign hates on Latinos. Some of them hate on gays. Or women. Or the poor. Or even just plain diff'r'nt.
posted by DU at 10:40 AM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by DU at 10:40 AM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
Creepy that I didn't know about this FAIR, the first one that came to mind was this one.
posted by mikeh at 10:41 AM on December 18, 2007
posted by mikeh at 10:41 AM on December 18, 2007
Gawd, that SPLC donation shoshkele is some special kind of annoying.
You may not have heard of FAIR, but the group has close ties to a site you may have encountered called VDARE. And VDARE, of course, has published a certain Michelle Malkin, and Malkin herself employs a VDARE contributor for her immigration blog.
I wouldn't have possibly imagined.
posted by dhartung at 10:51 AM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]
You may not have heard of FAIR, but the group has close ties to a site you may have encountered called VDARE. And VDARE, of course, has published a certain Michelle Malkin, and Malkin herself employs a VDARE contributor for her immigration blog.
I wouldn't have possibly imagined.
posted by dhartung at 10:51 AM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]
always a good indication that things are not going well nationally when the population starts hating on the immigrants (legal or not). Fact is the American economy has always depended on free or under-priced labor.
posted by edgeways at 10:51 AM on December 18, 2007
posted by edgeways at 10:51 AM on December 18, 2007
Anti-Latino hate crimes rose by almost 35% between 2003 and 2006
First of all, don't quote percentages unless you at least give a starting number. If there were 100 hate crimes in 2003 and 135 in 2006, that still a negligible number of hate crimes nation wide.
Second the use of 2003 seems arbitrary, as the immigration debate was an issue in the 2000 campaign. What is the percentage change since then?
Finally, I love how Southern Poverty Law Center gives me a pop-over ad that circumvents adblock plus. Why the hell is a non-profit selling ads?
posted by Pastabagel at 10:53 AM on December 18, 2007
First of all, don't quote percentages unless you at least give a starting number. If there were 100 hate crimes in 2003 and 135 in 2006, that still a negligible number of hate crimes nation wide.
Second the use of 2003 seems arbitrary, as the immigration debate was an issue in the 2000 campaign. What is the percentage change since then?
Finally, I love how Southern Poverty Law Center gives me a pop-over ad that circumvents adblock plus. Why the hell is a non-profit selling ads?
posted by Pastabagel at 10:53 AM on December 18, 2007
Years ago I made a small donation to the SPLC. Now they won't stop asking me for money. The mass mail never ends, and it's always "ZOMG RACISTS WANNA EAT YOUR CHIRREN! SEND $$$$ QUICK!!!!!!1!!"
In the 90s they single-handedly gave more press to the microcephalic Church of the Creator and similar skinhead factions than those inbred morons could have ever garnered on their own.
I am sympathetic and supportive of their stated goals, but their fundraising efforts are deceptive and pernicious.
Which has nothing to do with anti-Latino hate crime. Sorry.
/derail
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:54 AM on December 18, 2007
In the 90s they single-handedly gave more press to the microcephalic Church of the Creator and similar skinhead factions than those inbred morons could have ever garnered on their own.
I am sympathetic and supportive of their stated goals, but their fundraising efforts are deceptive and pernicious.
Which has nothing to do with anti-Latino hate crime. Sorry.
/derail
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:54 AM on December 18, 2007
Finally, I love how Southern Poverty Law Center gives me a pop-over ad that circumvents adblock plus. Why the hell is a non-profit selling ads?
I'm not understanding your objection to this. They have day to day costs, just like everyone else.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:56 AM on December 18, 2007
I'm not understanding your objection to this. They have day to day costs, just like everyone else.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:56 AM on December 18, 2007
More recent news.
Just because the victims were Latinos doesn't make it a hate crime.
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:59 AM on December 18, 2007
Just because the victims were Latinos doesn't make it a hate crime.
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:59 AM on December 18, 2007
I'm not understanding your objection to this. They have day to day costs, just like everyone else.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:56 PM on December 18
And yet, most non-profits don't do this. It is tacky, to say the least. It does not represent the organization well, and gives the impression that it is a commercial enterprise, like a magazine.
posted by Pastabagel at 11:00 AM on December 18, 2007
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:56 PM on December 18
And yet, most non-profits don't do this. It is tacky, to say the least. It does not represent the organization well, and gives the impression that it is a commercial enterprise, like a magazine.
posted by Pastabagel at 11:00 AM on December 18, 2007
You may not have heard of FAIR, but the group has close ties to a site you may have encountered called VDARE.
Oy, the memories.
posted by cortex at 11:00 AM on December 18, 2007
Oy, the memories.
posted by cortex at 11:00 AM on December 18, 2007
Just because the victims were Latinos doesn't make it a hate crime.
Their miserable life was a hate crime, not necessarily their death.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:03 AM on December 18, 2007
Their miserable life was a hate crime, not necessarily their death.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:03 AM on December 18, 2007
that still a negligible number of hate crimes nation wide.
Hate crimes are symbolic and can trigger massive shifts in cultural movements. They do not have to be more ghastly or claim more victims than other crimes in order to create serious problems for a community or even an entire nation.
Immigration issues have been a hot issue in the southwest at least as long as I've been alive, but the last few years have grown particularly nasty. As you say, it was a big issue in the 2000 election; after Bush won, folks probably thought it would all be fixed soon. My opinion is that in the past few years, it's started dawning on people that Bush isn't going to solve anything, and more communities (and individuals) are impatient and feel driven to take matters into their own hands.
posted by hermitosis at 11:04 AM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Hate crimes are symbolic and can trigger massive shifts in cultural movements. They do not have to be more ghastly or claim more victims than other crimes in order to create serious problems for a community or even an entire nation.
Immigration issues have been a hot issue in the southwest at least as long as I've been alive, but the last few years have grown particularly nasty. As you say, it was a big issue in the 2000 election; after Bush won, folks probably thought it would all be fixed soon. My opinion is that in the past few years, it's started dawning on people that Bush isn't going to solve anything, and more communities (and individuals) are impatient and feel driven to take matters into their own hands.
posted by hermitosis at 11:04 AM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
For a long time now, I've been very troubled by the shortening of "Illegal Immigrants" to the wildly pejorative "Illegals" -- I'm not wild about the long phrase, mind you, but at least it kinda sorta describes something. An "illegal" sounds more like a traffic infraction than a person.
I'll try and find an expanded article, but I always feel like stories like this are worth mentioning at times like these.
Illegal immigration is a symptom of a much larger problem - but correcting that problem would call for correcting trade imbalances with Mexico and for Americans to pay higher grocery prices. So this bigoted froth disguised as a domestic policy position is probably gonna keep up for awhile.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:05 AM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
I'll try and find an expanded article, but I always feel like stories like this are worth mentioning at times like these.
Illegal immigration is a symptom of a much larger problem - but correcting that problem would call for correcting trade imbalances with Mexico and for Americans to pay higher grocery prices. So this bigoted froth disguised as a domestic policy position is probably gonna keep up for awhile.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:05 AM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
What pop-up? (thank you, NoScript)
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:06 AM on December 18, 2007
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:06 AM on December 18, 2007
Their miserable life was a hate crime, not necessarily their death.
They chose to live like that.
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:09 AM on December 18, 2007
They chose to live like that.
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:09 AM on December 18, 2007
And what I mean by that is they could have used a bit of the money they were earning to give themselves a slightly better life. I do take note of their selflessness, but they did indeed choose to live like that. The way they lived is not a "hate crime".
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:11 AM on December 18, 2007
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:11 AM on December 18, 2007
Only in barrels, Artw.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:17 AM on December 18, 2007
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:17 AM on December 18, 2007
Well until they catch those responsible, cmgonzalez, we may not know. But if you came up with elements of a story that would make you think a hate crime happened, I think this story would probably have a bunch of them.
posted by cashman at 11:18 AM on December 18, 2007
posted by cashman at 11:18 AM on December 18, 2007
The most recent FBI report (for 2006) is here. A useful table is here. By way of quick summary, some random dude on the internet said: "According to the report, there were 770 attacks across the US against Hispanics/Latino-Americans last year. Antisemitism still rears its ugly head, since 1,027 incidents against Jews occurred. In contrast, there were 1,485 attacks based on the victim’s sexual orientation. These hate crimes are everything from graffiti to robberies to assaults to hanging nooses."
posted by chinston at 11:20 AM on December 18, 2007
posted by chinston at 11:20 AM on December 18, 2007
Yeah cmgonzalez, people who live like that do it by choice. Those goddamn baby farming welfare mothers too!
The way that those men were exploited so that we can consume cheaper commodities is disgusting. Those men were not livin in those conditions because they wanted to, they were slaves, plain and simple, and they lived in better conditions than most. Taking a few bucks for themselves would have literally meant taking food from a child.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:23 AM on December 18, 2007
The way that those men were exploited so that we can consume cheaper commodities is disgusting. Those men were not livin in those conditions because they wanted to, they were slaves, plain and simple, and they lived in better conditions than most. Taking a few bucks for themselves would have literally meant taking food from a child.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:23 AM on December 18, 2007
cmgonzales - at the risk of putting words in Pollomacho's mouth (and I do hope he'll correct me if I'm mistaken) I think he might have been referring to the conditions that undocumented workers put up with once they're in-country. In the sick fantasy world a lot of these anti-immigrant folks inhabit, Mexicans are crossing the border for some kind of endless dream vacation.
Which is bullshit, of course. Undocumented workers are de facto slave labor in this country. They simply don't have access to the same rights and protections as an American worker, and no matter what business says in public, this suits them just fine. Workers you can pay a pittance, work for as many hours as you please and dispose of with impunity are exactly what a lot of unscrupulous employers look for in a staff
A huge chunk of our economy relies on workers without status. Without their contribution, the prices on just about everything shoot up. And for this, a growing portion of the population would have them treated as sub-humans.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:26 AM on December 18, 2007
Which is bullshit, of course. Undocumented workers are de facto slave labor in this country. They simply don't have access to the same rights and protections as an American worker, and no matter what business says in public, this suits them just fine. Workers you can pay a pittance, work for as many hours as you please and dispose of with impunity are exactly what a lot of unscrupulous employers look for in a staff
A huge chunk of our economy relies on workers without status. Without their contribution, the prices on just about everything shoot up. And for this, a growing portion of the population would have them treated as sub-humans.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:26 AM on December 18, 2007
from FAIR link: The furious nativist tide...
Even the fact that they call themselves 'nativists' is silly, and I take pleasure in pointing it out to them whenever I meet them. I lived in Santa Fe for seven years, and one of the perks was the fact that no self-respecting 'nativist' would condescend to live among New Mexicans, who, despite the moniker, just so happen to be native-er than the anti-immigration people.
I used to work at the same office, actually, with one of these fuckers who seem to think that Christianity and anti-immigrationist and nationalist rage are commensurable. It was sort of fun, actually. He once vented a bit about how "these Mexicans" who "come up here and don't even learn english" and about how "all they do is get drunk and pollute the workforce."
I replied first by briefly but elaborately telling him in Spanish that he could fuck off. Then I explained to him in English that a few bad apples and lost jobs, even a new language he'd have to learn, were more than a fair trade, considering how much Hispanics had to teach us about culture, art, morality, and justice, us white people for whom the pinnacle of artistic and cultural achievement of the moment happens to be leaving all of our children in the dust and breeding kids who are so utterly and hopelessly full of rage and frustration that they seem to think their only recourse is multiple murders and suicide, given that we've been unable to raise ourselves above the level of animals far enough to see the obvious fact that consumerism isn't even very pleasurable, much less sustainable, and given that we white Americans could only be said to be exceptional insofar as we're pretty much alone in managing to reduce one of the greatest religions the world has ever known to a cartoon, a marketing ploy, and some kind of purgative entertainment. Taking advantage of the silence that he greeted this with, I went on to suggest that we white Americans also have a tremendous opportunity in these latter days in that we can learn from the Muslims, whose ancient and dignified tradition has many lessons for our crudity, lessons on the nature of beauty, truth, love, justice, and good leadership, and that we should thank God in heaven that our exposure to their culture is so great.
Come to think of it, I don't believe he ever talked to me again.
posted by koeselitz at 11:45 AM on December 18, 2007 [9 favorites]
Even the fact that they call themselves 'nativists' is silly, and I take pleasure in pointing it out to them whenever I meet them. I lived in Santa Fe for seven years, and one of the perks was the fact that no self-respecting 'nativist' would condescend to live among New Mexicans, who, despite the moniker, just so happen to be native-er than the anti-immigration people.
I used to work at the same office, actually, with one of these fuckers who seem to think that Christianity and anti-immigrationist and nationalist rage are commensurable. It was sort of fun, actually. He once vented a bit about how "these Mexicans" who "come up here and don't even learn english" and about how "all they do is get drunk and pollute the workforce."
I replied first by briefly but elaborately telling him in Spanish that he could fuck off. Then I explained to him in English that a few bad apples and lost jobs, even a new language he'd have to learn, were more than a fair trade, considering how much Hispanics had to teach us about culture, art, morality, and justice, us white people for whom the pinnacle of artistic and cultural achievement of the moment happens to be leaving all of our children in the dust and breeding kids who are so utterly and hopelessly full of rage and frustration that they seem to think their only recourse is multiple murders and suicide, given that we've been unable to raise ourselves above the level of animals far enough to see the obvious fact that consumerism isn't even very pleasurable, much less sustainable, and given that we white Americans could only be said to be exceptional insofar as we're pretty much alone in managing to reduce one of the greatest religions the world has ever known to a cartoon, a marketing ploy, and some kind of purgative entertainment. Taking advantage of the silence that he greeted this with, I went on to suggest that we white Americans also have a tremendous opportunity in these latter days in that we can learn from the Muslims, whose ancient and dignified tradition has many lessons for our crudity, lessons on the nature of beauty, truth, love, justice, and good leadership, and that we should thank God in heaven that our exposure to their culture is so great.
Come to think of it, I don't believe he ever talked to me again.
posted by koeselitz at 11:45 AM on December 18, 2007 [9 favorites]
Pollomacho: To not spend more on themselves was the decision they made. And that's fine. I was making no comment about anything beyond your labeling of their death and later, living situation as a "hate crime", which is an abuse of the term.
I have nothing against fellow Latinos. I'm referring to the situation as a whole, where many people seem to try and make it black and white and all about the 'poor, oppressed immigrants', whom they describe in terms that make them sound like puppets lacking free will.
As the daughter of a single mom who was at one point on Welfare and after that disability, I understand what it's like being poor and making hard decisions, not having enough to eat, not having clothes to wear, and sacrifice. But one still chooses to sacrifice. My mother sacrificed food sometimes so I could eat when I was a kid. Did she have to? No. She chose to.
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:53 AM on December 18, 2007
I have nothing against fellow Latinos. I'm referring to the situation as a whole, where many people seem to try and make it black and white and all about the 'poor, oppressed immigrants', whom they describe in terms that make them sound like puppets lacking free will.
As the daughter of a single mom who was at one point on Welfare and after that disability, I understand what it's like being poor and making hard decisions, not having enough to eat, not having clothes to wear, and sacrifice. But one still chooses to sacrifice. My mother sacrificed food sometimes so I could eat when I was a kid. Did she have to? No. She chose to.
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:53 AM on December 18, 2007
In the 90s [Southern Poverty Law Center] single-handedly gave more press to the microcephalic Church of the Creator and similar skinhead factions than those inbred morons could have ever garnered on their own.
I am sympathetic and supportive of their stated goals, but their fundraising efforts are deceptive and pernicious.
Also, they don't seem to mind if many of the bands on their "nazi" lists aren't actually Nazi -- gee, what do they care if people get beat down for attending a show, anyway? Come on: Tha-Norr? Bifrost? Abigor? These are bands that sing about spaceships and swords; battles and Vikings, not Nazism. Being on this stupid SPLC list next to full-on Nazi groups has caused a lot of trouble for some of these bands, and yet SPLC does not offer any evidence whatsoever that supports any band's placement on the list.
Anyway, yeah, it's a derail, but seriously, these guys do not care who they smear or slander in their campaign to rid the world of racism. And things like the following (from the "FAIR" article) don't help: "It has mixed this bigotry with a fondness for eugenics, the idea of breeding better humans discredited by its Nazi associations". Science is discredited by its associations, now, is it? I hadn't heard!
Then again, it makes sense, considering that "associations" is all SPLC cares about: if you (or your friends, or your fans, or even some guy writing for a fanzine who doesn't even know you) get too close to ideas they don't like, then you get the scarlet letter.
posted by vorfeed at 11:59 AM on December 18, 2007
I am sympathetic and supportive of their stated goals, but their fundraising efforts are deceptive and pernicious.
Also, they don't seem to mind if many of the bands on their "nazi" lists aren't actually Nazi -- gee, what do they care if people get beat down for attending a show, anyway? Come on: Tha-Norr? Bifrost? Abigor? These are bands that sing about spaceships and swords; battles and Vikings, not Nazism. Being on this stupid SPLC list next to full-on Nazi groups has caused a lot of trouble for some of these bands, and yet SPLC does not offer any evidence whatsoever that supports any band's placement on the list.
Anyway, yeah, it's a derail, but seriously, these guys do not care who they smear or slander in their campaign to rid the world of racism. And things like the following (from the "FAIR" article) don't help: "It has mixed this bigotry with a fondness for eugenics, the idea of breeding better humans discredited by its Nazi associations". Science is discredited by its associations, now, is it? I hadn't heard!
Then again, it makes sense, considering that "associations" is all SPLC cares about: if you (or your friends, or your fans, or even some guy writing for a fanzine who doesn't even know you) get too close to ideas they don't like, then you get the scarlet letter.
posted by vorfeed at 11:59 AM on December 18, 2007
The thing that I hate most about the illegal immigration "issue" is that it's going to drive us into a police state faster than anything else.
I'm not quite sure that the authoritarians have noticed, yet -- they're still hung up on "terr'ists." But when they do, it's going to be bad. Even worse still will be the combination: draconian laws passed in the name of 'fighting terrorism,' expanded domestically in order to combat illegal immigration and immigrants.
Illegal immigration is the thing that's going to make average Americans -- white ones from 'flyover states' -- start demanding internal passports and residency permits. (Wasn't there a town somewhere that already tried to create a legal-status/ID requirement in order to rent an apartment?) It will turn us into a nation of "citizens" rather than "Americans," where every time you do anything, you will pull out your ID so it can be checked against a national database. And people will do it happily and with a sense of satisfaction, because they'll be told it's the only way to keep their jobs from being taken, their children's schools from going down the toilet, the country from being overrun, etc. It's Demogaugery 101.
Additionally, it's dangerous because it's an issue that you can make appeal not only to scared white-majority voters from blue-collar areas, who've seen their jobs exported and harbor a certain amount of xenophobia already, but to lower-income urban minorities who are legal citizens. Start telling them that their jobs and government benefits are going to be taken away by illegals, and they'll be demanding more ID checks, too. In fact, if you're a populist authoritarian, you can play both sides of this issue to your advantage: you cut benefits to all low-income urban minorities, which appeals to upper income earners and some conservatives, while telling the low-income people it's because of the illegals, deflecting the hate away from you and onto them. It's a win-win.
And the people who get the shortest end of the stick are legal Hispanic and Latino immigrants, because they'll end up taking just as much hatred as those who've come in illegally, but will have wasted all the time and effort (and money) required to be legal.
I frankly cannot think of a more dangerous issue on the domestic front, and I don't see it defusing itself.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:00 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]
I'm not quite sure that the authoritarians have noticed, yet -- they're still hung up on "terr'ists." But when they do, it's going to be bad. Even worse still will be the combination: draconian laws passed in the name of 'fighting terrorism,' expanded domestically in order to combat illegal immigration and immigrants.
Illegal immigration is the thing that's going to make average Americans -- white ones from 'flyover states' -- start demanding internal passports and residency permits. (Wasn't there a town somewhere that already tried to create a legal-status/ID requirement in order to rent an apartment?) It will turn us into a nation of "citizens" rather than "Americans," where every time you do anything, you will pull out your ID so it can be checked against a national database. And people will do it happily and with a sense of satisfaction, because they'll be told it's the only way to keep their jobs from being taken, their children's schools from going down the toilet, the country from being overrun, etc. It's Demogaugery 101.
Additionally, it's dangerous because it's an issue that you can make appeal not only to scared white-majority voters from blue-collar areas, who've seen their jobs exported and harbor a certain amount of xenophobia already, but to lower-income urban minorities who are legal citizens. Start telling them that their jobs and government benefits are going to be taken away by illegals, and they'll be demanding more ID checks, too. In fact, if you're a populist authoritarian, you can play both sides of this issue to your advantage: you cut benefits to all low-income urban minorities, which appeals to upper income earners and some conservatives, while telling the low-income people it's because of the illegals, deflecting the hate away from you and onto them. It's a win-win.
And the people who get the shortest end of the stick are legal Hispanic and Latino immigrants, because they'll end up taking just as much hatred as those who've come in illegally, but will have wasted all the time and effort (and money) required to be legal.
I frankly cannot think of a more dangerous issue on the domestic front, and I don't see it defusing itself.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:00 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]
cmgonzales: They chose to live like that. And what I mean by that is they could have used a bit of the money they were earning to give themselves a slightly better life. I do take note of their selflessness, but they did indeed choose to live like that. The way they lived is not a "hate crime".
I agree with you. It's important not to use inflammatory words merely for effect, and calling the beaurocratic nightmare that good, decent, hard-working immigrants have to go through to make themselves legal a 'hate crime' is false; no one intended the beaurocratic nightmare to be hurtful toward them. Moreover, calling it a 'hate crime' leaves aside those who have actually gone to the trouble to make themselves legal immigrants-- are they victims of hate crime, too?
All this aside, it is necessary, and more so every minute, to make it easier for undocumented workers who are already fulfilling most of the responsibilities of citizenship to become legal citizens, if for no other reason than there is no order of law unless the status of those ruled is determined. If we're going to ask that people who immigrate be good citizens-- as we do now, and as I think we should-- then we need to stop making it so difficult for the honest to become legal and so difficult for the currently illegal to be honest.
posted by koeselitz at 12:03 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
I agree with you. It's important not to use inflammatory words merely for effect, and calling the beaurocratic nightmare that good, decent, hard-working immigrants have to go through to make themselves legal a 'hate crime' is false; no one intended the beaurocratic nightmare to be hurtful toward them. Moreover, calling it a 'hate crime' leaves aside those who have actually gone to the trouble to make themselves legal immigrants-- are they victims of hate crime, too?
All this aside, it is necessary, and more so every minute, to make it easier for undocumented workers who are already fulfilling most of the responsibilities of citizenship to become legal citizens, if for no other reason than there is no order of law unless the status of those ruled is determined. If we're going to ask that people who immigrate be good citizens-- as we do now, and as I think we should-- then we need to stop making it so difficult for the honest to become legal and so difficult for the currently illegal to be honest.
posted by koeselitz at 12:03 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Kadin - And let's go ahead and add the erosion of privacy, both in the name of fighting terr'ism and pedophilia. "To Catch a Predator" is absolutely a police state preview.
It's such a tired old formula, really. Start with indefensible segments of the population, and work your way in. "First, they came for the pederasts ..."
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:06 PM on December 18, 2007
It's such a tired old formula, really. Start with indefensible segments of the population, and work your way in. "First, they came for the pederasts ..."
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:06 PM on December 18, 2007
Isn't 35% the approximate rate of influx of "Latino" (really mostly Mexican) illegal aliens in that period? Maybe there are not that many more criminals attacking Latinos, but simply a lot more Latinos running across the same criminals?
posted by Sukiari at 12:18 PM on December 18, 2007
posted by Sukiari at 12:18 PM on December 18, 2007
first, let me say that I am bored by the nightly rants on immiration by Lou Dobbs, but, that said, to suggest he is all for shooting Mexicans is just plain dumb. After all, he has been for some time married to a Mexican lady.
posted by Postroad at 12:32 PM on December 18, 2007
posted by Postroad at 12:32 PM on December 18, 2007
EatTheWeak: I've noticed that this kind of shortening is considered pejorative in English, for instance with "the gays". I'm not crazy about it myself, but I think a large part of it is just how language works: Longer, more awkward forms are replaced by shorter, more convenient ones.
Ironically, that kind of nouning of adjectives (does that have a name?) is very common in Spanish. Here, "los gays" and "los ilegales", as well as "los chaparritos" (the short ones) and so on is incredibly common and totally acccepted.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:33 PM on December 18, 2007
Ironically, that kind of nouning of adjectives (does that have a name?) is very common in Spanish. Here, "los gays" and "los ilegales", as well as "los chaparritos" (the short ones) and so on is incredibly common and totally acccepted.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:33 PM on December 18, 2007
Perhaps I feel a bit impassioned by this issue because of my work. You see I work trying to fight human trafficking in the good old US government. I see people exploited, forced into slave labor and prostitution and basically not having anywhere to turn for help on a daily basis. It's disgusting, it's horrible and 99% of Americans have no idea that it is happening right under their noses. Those "damn Mexicans" that are always getting drunk down by the "Mexican store" are living, for a very large part, in barracks you wouldn't let your dog piss in. The store, it's owned by their overseer, or his cousin and the pennies that they do get, that doesn't get sent home anyway to feed their families, gets spent there, you know, the old "company store" of 16 ton fame. They are actually traded like commodities, from handler to handler. They are willfully kept ignorant of US laws, English, their human rights and told that if they run they will be turned in and deported or worse, beaten or killed.
Now that's just the manual laborers. Then we get the prostitutes. Young girls are recruited for schools where they are going to better themselves and their whole family. What they aren't told about is the "transportation fees" they owe their handlers when they arrive. They will have to "work off" the fees in the handler operated brothel. The girls are too embarrased to simply ask for help from home and end up "ruined" in the eyes of their home culture and can never return. They end up in derelict apartments, trailer parks and nail salons across the country.
These are the people that I end up dealing with. They are not doing anything they would willingly choose to do. When they do attempt to assert themselves against their handlers they are often murdered, like the men in Cinci, for choosing. It's not a Latino thing, it's not a poverty thing, it's a human trafficking thing. I'm sorry I get my hackles up about this issue, but it's rather close to home.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:55 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]
Now that's just the manual laborers. Then we get the prostitutes. Young girls are recruited for schools where they are going to better themselves and their whole family. What they aren't told about is the "transportation fees" they owe their handlers when they arrive. They will have to "work off" the fees in the handler operated brothel. The girls are too embarrased to simply ask for help from home and end up "ruined" in the eyes of their home culture and can never return. They end up in derelict apartments, trailer parks and nail salons across the country.
These are the people that I end up dealing with. They are not doing anything they would willingly choose to do. When they do attempt to assert themselves against their handlers they are often murdered, like the men in Cinci, for choosing. It's not a Latino thing, it's not a poverty thing, it's a human trafficking thing. I'm sorry I get my hackles up about this issue, but it's rather close to home.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:55 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]
“always a good indication that things are not going well nationally when the population starts hating on the immigrants”
Yeah. Someone with an actual job/life doesn’t generally have time for this kind of nonsense.
“I frankly cannot think of a more dangerous issue on the domestic front, and I don't see it defusing itself.” - Kadin2048
Agreed. And, reading/hearing some of the rhetoric on the issue, there seem to be many politicians who are not at all interested in addressing the real problems. Just exacerbating and exploiting the issue. Trolling - essentially. But with practical consequences and ramifications for people’s lives.
Folks seem to think they can get away with debasing part of a population or a specific class/ethnic group/etc. without debasing humanity in general. You can hand the state a license to smash some people, but not others and absolutely nothing will go awry.
Like the folks in the authority are is going to just ‘know’ you’re good ol’Morty from accounting and an ok guy, not one of those evil ‘illegals’ and not just step on anyone gets in their way.
And of course, they won’t conflate the issue or dissemble to gain more power. Which, really is part of why that guy is wearing the “what part of illegal don’t they get t-shirt” and the hate crimes go on. ‘Let’s you and him fight’ is one of the oldest political gags in the world.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:55 PM on December 18, 2007
Yeah. Someone with an actual job/life doesn’t generally have time for this kind of nonsense.
“I frankly cannot think of a more dangerous issue on the domestic front, and I don't see it defusing itself.” - Kadin2048
Agreed. And, reading/hearing some of the rhetoric on the issue, there seem to be many politicians who are not at all interested in addressing the real problems. Just exacerbating and exploiting the issue. Trolling - essentially. But with practical consequences and ramifications for people’s lives.
Folks seem to think they can get away with debasing part of a population or a specific class/ethnic group/etc. without debasing humanity in general. You can hand the state a license to smash some people, but not others and absolutely nothing will go awry.
Like the folks in the authority are is going to just ‘know’ you’re good ol’Morty from accounting and an ok guy, not one of those evil ‘illegals’ and not just step on anyone gets in their way.
And of course, they won’t conflate the issue or dissemble to gain more power. Which, really is part of why that guy is wearing the “what part of illegal don’t they get t-shirt” and the hate crimes go on. ‘Let’s you and him fight’ is one of the oldest political gags in the world.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:55 PM on December 18, 2007
(well said and bravo on the work Pollomacho)
posted by Smedleyman at 12:58 PM on December 18, 2007
posted by Smedleyman at 12:58 PM on December 18, 2007
Joakim - Certainly. Any phrase used long enough will in time collapse into a more manageable package. There's a bunch of examples, but the only one I can think of at the moment would be "Shire Reeve" smooshing into "Sheriff." It's a reasonable enough way for terms to evolve, and even if English Defenders were keen to put the breaks on it, I doubt it would be possible.
It's just that specific term that gives me such crawlies. "Illegals" -- it's just such an icky way to refer to a person, as if they're very existence breaks some law. Couple that with the 'nativists' (which is a pretty hilarious thing for a white person living on conquered Indian land to call themselves) rejection not only of the presence of Mexicans, but also their culture and language, and you've got the makings of some pretty disgusting dehumanization.
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:59 PM on December 18, 2007
It's just that specific term that gives me such crawlies. "Illegals" -- it's just such an icky way to refer to a person, as if they're very existence breaks some law. Couple that with the 'nativists' (which is a pretty hilarious thing for a white person living on conquered Indian land to call themselves) rejection not only of the presence of Mexicans, but also their culture and language, and you've got the makings of some pretty disgusting dehumanization.
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:59 PM on December 18, 2007
koeselitz, I'm glad you gathered the moxie stand your moral ground, but, is there any real reason Americans should be more lenient concerning immigration? because the only thing you said was the proverbial idealistic , self deprecating drivel that folks here love.
posted by Student of Man at 12:59 PM on December 18, 2007
posted by Student of Man at 12:59 PM on December 18, 2007
Its not right to target anyone for their ethnicity. It is also not right for large numbers of people to enter a country illegally, be given social services, and complain about the fact that they are not given the same rights as other citizens. I don't live in the southwest, but illegal immigration is a fairly hot topic in the NYC area as well. My suburban town is inundated with immigrants, illegal and legal. And I mean inundated - and its created a huge economic problem. You don't have to be a bigot to think that this is not a good situation. Lots of problems on both sides, and lots of emotion, lots of erroneous assumptions. Immigration laws exist for a reason it seems, just like other laws. If illegal immigrants are dealt with, its important to do so humanely. But I think its not a bad thing to also remember that these people are here illegally. Whats wrong with targeting and preferencing educated immigrants? Why do I struggle to get Ph.Ds into the country, but the uneducated deserve some other treatment? Why can't those looking for a better life work to build a better society for themselves in their native lands? These are rhetorical questions, but valid ones as well. People come down on different sides of this issue because they have different values and different experiences, not just because they are bigots. I think that while we need to be careful that anti-illegal immigration rhetoric is not a euphemism for racism or ethnocentrism, we also need to realize that the other side of this question has validity too.
I dunno where I stand on this sometimes.
posted by sfts2 at 1:19 PM on December 18, 2007
I dunno where I stand on this sometimes.
posted by sfts2 at 1:19 PM on December 18, 2007
sfts2 writes "Why can't those looking for a better life work to build a better society for themselves in their native lands?"
How did your ancestors end up here?
posted by krinklyfig at 2:07 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
How did your ancestors end up here?
posted by krinklyfig at 2:07 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
But I think its not a bad thing to also remember that these people are here illegally.
Right. But when you have millions of people breaking the law, it sort of proves the law is broken.
posted by birdherder at 2:30 PM on December 18, 2007
Right. But when you have millions of people breaking the law, it sort of proves the law is broken.
posted by birdherder at 2:30 PM on December 18, 2007
ie speedlimits and traffic laws! we should get rid of all of those too!
posted by garlic at 3:40 PM on December 18, 2007
posted by garlic at 3:40 PM on December 18, 2007
Speed limits can and have been changed for various reasons. Don't have any direct experience with changing traffic laws. Regardless, immigration law seems to be quite broken. Doesn't mean we need to toss out immigration laws and have a free for all. Means either the way it's written or the way it's enforced needs to be changed. But what was this thread about again?
Hearing about hate crimes just fill me with this unearthly frustration and sadness. It doesn't matter if someone is legal or an illegal immigrant. Maiming, hurting, killing another person is not just illegal, it's not a thing a good human being should do. Same should be true of race/ethnicity/sexual orientation. How do you address that? I remember reading the article about David Ritcheson when his suicide was reported. How do you address people willing to maim, disfigure, and sodomize another human being because he allegedly kissed a white girl? My first reaction is anger and vengeance. But isn't misguided anger and vengeance (plus ignorance/fear) what feeds the mistrust that creates racism and xenophobia.
posted by Mister Cheese at 4:54 PM on December 18, 2007
Hearing about hate crimes just fill me with this unearthly frustration and sadness. It doesn't matter if someone is legal or an illegal immigrant. Maiming, hurting, killing another person is not just illegal, it's not a thing a good human being should do. Same should be true of race/ethnicity/sexual orientation. How do you address that? I remember reading the article about David Ritcheson when his suicide was reported. How do you address people willing to maim, disfigure, and sodomize another human being because he allegedly kissed a white girl? My first reaction is anger and vengeance. But isn't misguided anger and vengeance (plus ignorance/fear) what feeds the mistrust that creates racism and xenophobia.
posted by Mister Cheese at 4:54 PM on December 18, 2007
but, is there any real reason Americans should be more lenient concerning immigration? because the only thing you said was the proverbial idealistic , self deprecating drivel that folks here love.
Give me your tired, your poor *rolls eyes*. In one of these links (1 2 ) it shows that the immigration rates in America are actually lower nowadays, which means more Americans used to be immigrants. AFAIK Americans didn't rise fully formed from the U.S. soil. Excerpts from the links:
Immigrants do not increase the rate of unemployment among native Americans, even among minority, female, and low-skill workers. The effect of immigration on wages is negative for some of these special groups and positive for others, but the overall effects are small.
Total per capita government expenditures on immigrants are much lower than those for natives.
The educational levels of immigrants have been increasing from decade to decade. No major shifts in educational levels of immigrants relative to natives are apparent.
A new report by the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University concludes that recent immigrants were critical to the nation's economic growth in the past decade, accounting for half of the new wage earners who joined the labor force in those years.
on preview: And as Mister Cheese says, humans are humans.
posted by ersatz at 6:01 PM on December 18, 2007
Give me your tired, your poor *rolls eyes*. In one of these links (1 2 ) it shows that the immigration rates in America are actually lower nowadays, which means more Americans used to be immigrants. AFAIK Americans didn't rise fully formed from the U.S. soil. Excerpts from the links:
Immigrants do not increase the rate of unemployment among native Americans, even among minority, female, and low-skill workers. The effect of immigration on wages is negative for some of these special groups and positive for others, but the overall effects are small.
Total per capita government expenditures on immigrants are much lower than those for natives.
The educational levels of immigrants have been increasing from decade to decade. No major shifts in educational levels of immigrants relative to natives are apparent.
A new report by the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University concludes that recent immigrants were critical to the nation's economic growth in the past decade, accounting for half of the new wage earners who joined the labor force in those years.
on preview: And as Mister Cheese says, humans are humans.
posted by ersatz at 6:01 PM on December 18, 2007
I live in Tucson, 60 miles from the border. So, as you can imagine, immigration is a real hot button issue here.
I recently talked to an aquaintance who wanted me to join a group that he was joining, an anti-illegal immigration group. He told me that in the few years he's been in Arizona, the illegal immigration problem has gotten worse, and that they're starting to see it back home in New Jersey.
Well, wait a minute there. Those of us who have lived here have known about this for decades. Then people woke up one day in Iowa, in New Jersey, in Kentucky, in Ohio, and wondered "Where the hell did all these Mexicans come from?" It became the perfect political hot-button issue.
And, as Kadin so adeptly noted, a very dangerous issue. I already have to drive through Border Patrol checkpoints on a regular basis anytime I go south. Now people are yelling for national ID because "It will help fight illegal immigration!" But that's a very dangerous road to go down. Many municipalities are starting to have police enforce immigration laws - of, course, they announce this very publicly for maximum re-election impact. People are clamoring for more cities and counties to do that, screaming "Sanctuary city!" at any city that doesn't. This pulls away from needed police resources, pushing illegal residents - and the dangerous predators that prey on them - farther into the shadows. It also helps breed the environment that hate crimes flourish in.
Also, I fear for my Mexican friends as well. What happens if one of them doesn't have his ID on him and gets questioned by a police officer that is from a city that thinks they are immigration enforcers? Will they get detained for a couple of days just because they didn't grab their wallet before they went out on a walk? The "let the local police enforce immigration laws" is a big step towards "papers, please."
Meanwhile, although almost anyone who is anti-illegal immigration will say otherwise, this is deeply tinged with racism. They claim they are only against those who break the laws of the country, but boy, could we go a long way on that, seeing how the average American breaks laws every single day. The hate and the political hay being made is all aimed at Mexicans. Not everyone against illegal immigration is racist, but a lot of them are, and thanks to the politicos, their racism is being given legitimacy by the government. This is something that history has never looked kindly on.
Living in a heavily hispanic area, I understand very well the strain that the large influx of immigrants has put on the system. But I don't hate them. This problem is not of their making. It's a symptom of a far bigger problem, one that will have to be solved if there is to be any real solution to this issue. But the politicians will continue to make their careers by stepping on them for as long as they can. Like I said, history has never looked favorably on this kind of thing. And I don't want to be one of the people in the future who will have to say, "I'm sorry." It may be 30 or 40 years from now, but that day will come.
posted by azpenguin at 9:58 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
I recently talked to an aquaintance who wanted me to join a group that he was joining, an anti-illegal immigration group. He told me that in the few years he's been in Arizona, the illegal immigration problem has gotten worse, and that they're starting to see it back home in New Jersey.
Well, wait a minute there. Those of us who have lived here have known about this for decades. Then people woke up one day in Iowa, in New Jersey, in Kentucky, in Ohio, and wondered "Where the hell did all these Mexicans come from?" It became the perfect political hot-button issue.
And, as Kadin so adeptly noted, a very dangerous issue. I already have to drive through Border Patrol checkpoints on a regular basis anytime I go south. Now people are yelling for national ID because "It will help fight illegal immigration!" But that's a very dangerous road to go down. Many municipalities are starting to have police enforce immigration laws - of, course, they announce this very publicly for maximum re-election impact. People are clamoring for more cities and counties to do that, screaming "Sanctuary city!" at any city that doesn't. This pulls away from needed police resources, pushing illegal residents - and the dangerous predators that prey on them - farther into the shadows. It also helps breed the environment that hate crimes flourish in.
Also, I fear for my Mexican friends as well. What happens if one of them doesn't have his ID on him and gets questioned by a police officer that is from a city that thinks they are immigration enforcers? Will they get detained for a couple of days just because they didn't grab their wallet before they went out on a walk? The "let the local police enforce immigration laws" is a big step towards "papers, please."
Meanwhile, although almost anyone who is anti-illegal immigration will say otherwise, this is deeply tinged with racism. They claim they are only against those who break the laws of the country, but boy, could we go a long way on that, seeing how the average American breaks laws every single day. The hate and the political hay being made is all aimed at Mexicans. Not everyone against illegal immigration is racist, but a lot of them are, and thanks to the politicos, their racism is being given legitimacy by the government. This is something that history has never looked kindly on.
Living in a heavily hispanic area, I understand very well the strain that the large influx of immigrants has put on the system. But I don't hate them. This problem is not of their making. It's a symptom of a far bigger problem, one that will have to be solved if there is to be any real solution to this issue. But the politicians will continue to make their careers by stepping on them for as long as they can. Like I said, history has never looked favorably on this kind of thing. And I don't want to be one of the people in the future who will have to say, "I'm sorry." It may be 30 or 40 years from now, but that day will come.
posted by azpenguin at 9:58 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
it's started dawning on people that Bush isn't going to solve anything, and more communities (and individuals) are impatient and feel driven to take matters into their own hands.
I missed the link that you posted (or didn't) about this being vigilante justice. But I guess we're hating on Bush, so who cares about facts!
posted by dhammond at 10:29 PM on December 18, 2007
I missed the link that you posted (or didn't) about this being vigilante justice. But I guess we're hating on Bush, so who cares about facts!
posted by dhammond at 10:29 PM on December 18, 2007
I'd just like to add, this same drum is being beat in Europe, over folks from eastern Europe and the other places (eg Turkey). The right-wing lunacy isn't reserved for the USA, unfortunately.
posted by Goofyy at 11:46 PM on December 18, 2007
posted by Goofyy at 11:46 PM on December 18, 2007
any assault, battery, murder, etc. is a hate crime. "hate crime" is merely a construction for those who believe the punishment should be enhanced when the victim is a minority. while i don't feel that undocumented immigration from mexico is a serious problem, neither do i feel an urge to exalt these folks to a moral position superior to my own.
posted by bruce at 3:58 AM on December 19, 2007
posted by bruce at 3:58 AM on December 19, 2007
I'd just like to add, this same drum is being beat in Europe, over folks from eastern Europe and the other places (eg Turkey). The right-wing lunacy isn't reserved for the USA, unfortunately.
European right-wing xenophobes? I never thought I'd see the day...
posted by Pollomacho at 4:03 AM on December 19, 2007
European right-wing xenophobes? I never thought I'd see the day...
posted by Pollomacho at 4:03 AM on December 19, 2007
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Exchange "nigger" for any Latino slur of choice. Welcome to every GOP campaign.
posted by TrialByMedia at 10:35 AM on December 18, 2007