Oh Canada!
January 17, 2008 2:22 PM   Subscribe

fuck yeah. Canada has joined Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International in adding the U.S. and Israel to their list of countries who torture. Have we learned our lesson?
posted by gman (54 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
Fuck Yeah indeed.
posted by chunking express at 2:27 PM on January 17, 2008


AND I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN
WHERE AT LEAST I KNOW YOU'RE UNFREE
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:29 PM on January 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


So, how the fuck do you really feel about this topic, OP?
posted by jmd82 at 2:29 PM on January 17, 2008


Yeah, in the sense that we added the States and Israel to a list in a training manual given to diplomats, an addition that the Conservatives are now busily backpedaling from because it makes them look like idiots.

Don't mistake this for a genuine policy shift on the part of Harper's government. For all intents and purposes, Harper still doesn't seem to care too much about Guantanamo et al., based on the relative lack of action on keeping Omar Khadr out of the hands of a secret American tribunal.
posted by chrominance at 2:32 PM on January 17, 2008


(which isn't to say that I wouldn't support Canada placing the U.S. on a torture watch list with some force; just that I highly doubt that's going to happen any time soon.)
posted by chrominance at 2:34 PM on January 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


Well, you can put us on a taser watchlist, if you like.

Looks like this caught our government (which is quite cosy with the American government) unawares. Expect some backtracking to happen in the days to follow.
posted by Salmonberry at 2:34 PM on January 17, 2008


So, how the fuck do you really feel about this topic, OP?

sorry. got excited.

Don't mistake this for a genuine policy shift on the part of Harper's government.


any list, even for a day, makes me smile.
posted by gman at 2:37 PM on January 17, 2008


Have we learned our lesson?

You know, I think we have. Finally.
posted by shmegegge at 2:42 PM on January 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


Yeah, in the sense that we added the States and Israel to a list in a training manual given to diplomats...

Which is now international news.

...an addition that the Conservatives are now busily backpedaling from because it makes them look like idiots.

The truth has a way of doing that.
posted by stinkycheese at 2:43 PM on January 17, 2008


Yeah, the Canadian government will cave on this. Of course, its not like we have clean hands either - the Arar case comes to mind.
posted by never used baby shoes at 2:43 PM on January 17, 2008 [2 favorites]


It said the document mentioned U.S. interrogation techniques such as "forced nudity, isolation, and sleep deprivation."

Now known under the colloquial terminology as "the dating scene".

Kidding aside, I hope this sticks. The sooner we can put these techniques behind us, the better.
posted by quin at 2:47 PM on January 17, 2008


This also puts the case of Omar Khadr in a very different light and could conceivably affect his stay at Guantanamo.
posted by stinkycheese at 2:47 PM on January 17, 2008


Doesn't Canada have a little bit to much oil to be making noises like that?
posted by Mr_Zero at 2:49 PM on January 17, 2008 [5 favorites]


The article doesn't mention any bureaucrats by name. How are we supposed to know which one will be fired for this?
posted by Chuckles McLaughy du Haha, the depressed clown at 2:57 PM on January 17, 2008


I'm pretty sure that we (Canada) show up on a lot of other countries "torture list" for giving them Celine Dion.
posted by blue_beetle at 2:59 PM on January 17, 2008 [5 favorites]


The article doesn't mention any bureaucrats by name. How are we supposed to know which one will be fired for this?

It doesn't matter which one they fire, so long as they remember to call that bureaucrat a Liberal appointee first!
posted by chrominance at 3:08 PM on January 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


Liberals are torture, eh?
posted by valentinepig at 3:11 PM on January 17, 2008


I also cheer the international recognition that my United States, along with the country founded by my fellow Jews, have declined in morality to the point that they regularly abuse human rights and deliberately violate what was once considered an absolute standard of humane behavior.

Hooray. The moment has come at last. Where is my party hat?
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:13 PM on January 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


Have we learned our lesson?

I don't think you Canadians will have learned your lesson until we slather your balls in maple syrup and tase the shit out of them.

And the name of that lesson? Don't fuck with the USA!!!!!!!11!!!
posted by papakwanz at 3:18 PM on January 17, 2008


Of course, its not like we have clean hands either - the Arar case comes to mind.

The problem in the Arar case was that we let the Americans take Arar to Syria, so admitting that the US tortures would, at least in a ideal world, stop us from handing over custody of or intelligence about "terror" suspects to the Americans.
posted by ssg at 3:25 PM on January 17, 2008


Ooooh, Canada doesn't like us. I'm, like, soooooo scared.
posted by notmydesk at 3:27 PM on January 17, 2008


"forced nudity, isolation, and sleep deprivation."

Oh, you mean how I spent last weekend?
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:42 PM on January 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


Well, crucially, this adds more to the “oh, yes you do” side of the torture question. I’m not looking forward to putting this behind us at all. I’m looking forward to the arrest and conviction of those involved.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:42 PM on January 17, 2008


"Ooooh, Canada doesn't like us. I'm, like, soooooo scared."posted by notmydesk at 9:27 AM on January 18

This pretty much sums up how I think the US Government will react to this. Oh, there will be some strong words made in official public statements about how they reject Canada's position on this and how much the US abhors torture, but at the end of the day those people in the US Government who are in a position to change things will just say "Canada can go fuck itself."

Don't get me wrong. It's nice to finally see some greater international recognition of what we all know the US is doing, but at the end of the day this isn't going to change a thing. The only people who can really change this are the citizens of the USA. Only they can take the right kind of action to demand better standards from their leaders. Until they do, nothing else will change.
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:46 PM on January 17, 2008


I don't think you Canadians will have learned your lesson until we slather your balls in maple syrup and tase the shit out of them.

How did you think we made those maple sugar treats we export to you?
posted by srboisvert at 3:46 PM on January 17, 2008 [4 favorites]


I'm surprised the EU hasn't put the U.S. on a torture watch list.
posted by Skygazer at 3:48 PM on January 17, 2008


The only people who can really change this are the citizens of the USA. Only they can take the right kind of action to demand better standards from their leaders.

Sadly this would require a sense of civic duty, something which seems to have all but vanished in the USA.
posted by stinkycheese at 3:57 PM on January 17, 2008


The EU doesn't appear to have a list of countries that torture (at least not a public list), but it does have an official statement of its policy on torture, dating from 2001.
posted by athenian at 4:17 PM on January 17, 2008


This is pretty interesting considering the new quite conservative Canadian government. The US deserves this, and more countries should follow suit. Some shaming is in order. Our house isn't, and any help the rest of the world can provide to get us back into order would be most appreciated.
posted by caddis at 4:22 PM on January 17, 2008


Serious question. What difference does this make, if any? Is the list used to determine, say, whether a certain country is eligible for something or other, or so on?
posted by "Tex" Connor and the Wily Roundup Boys at 4:56 PM on January 17, 2008


I'm having a hard time choosing how to best employ snark in my reply here.

It is a toss up between:

"Of all the jobs to stop outsourcing, we had to pick torturer."

and

"My definition of torture remains 'that which somebody else does to extract information from somebody I like.'"
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:27 PM on January 17, 2008


I'm pretty sure that we (Canada) show up on a lot of other countries "torture list" for giving them Celine Dion.

Well we're punishing ourselves now with Nickelback. Saying Rockstar is torture doesn't quite capture how incredibly painful and depressing it actually is.
posted by juiceCake at 5:46 PM on January 17, 2008


"My definition of torture remains 'that which somebody else does to extract information from somebody I like.'"

That's not snark, that's completely missing the point.
posted by Artful Codger at 5:47 PM on January 17, 2008


AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!
posted by eyeballkid at 6:01 PM on January 17, 2008


"That's not snark, that's completely missing the point."

It is snark (albeit poorly worded snark), unless your position is that America doesn't torture, I suppose.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:47 PM on January 17, 2008


Have we learned our lesson?

The world gave Al Gore a Peace Prize, and we're still making jokes about him inventing the Internet. What do you think?
posted by jonp72 at 7:13 PM on January 17, 2008 [2 favorites]


Canada...
Canada...
Canada, fuck yeah!
Coming again, to enforce UN resolutions,
Canada, fuck yeah!
Mildness is the only way yeah,
America your game is through cause now you have to answer to,
Canada, fuck yeah!
So excuse my French, and eat my poutine,
Canada, fuck yeah!
What you going to do when we gently protest,
it’s the dream that some folks share
it’s the hope for tomorrow

Fuck yeah!
Molsons, FUCK YEAH!
Labatts, FUCK YEAH!
Moosehead, FUCK YEAH!
Snowballs, FUCK YEAH!
CFL, FUCK YEAH!
Tragically Hip, FUCK YEAH!
Marijuana, FUCK YEAH!
Ruckemups, FUCK YEAH!

FUCK YEAH!

Winter, FUCK YEAH!
Trees, FUCK YEAH!
Boredom, FUCK YEAH!
Separatism, FUCK YEAH!
US TV, FUCK YEAH!
Prairies, FUCK YEAH!
Pine Beetles, FUCK YEAH!
The Queen, FUCK YEAH!
Rodeos, FUCK YEAH!
West Edmonton Mall (Fuck yeah, Fuck yeah)

OK, I'm done.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:30 PM on January 17, 2008 [7 favorites]


You did not have to drop the f bomb.
posted by emmaannasam at 7:43 PM on January 17, 2008


I'm pretty sure that we (Canada) show up on a lot of other countries "torture list" for giving them Celine Dion.

Maybe so, but you guys already redeemed yourselves with the Trailer Park Boys and bands like Black Mountain.
posted by hellslinger at 7:45 PM on January 17, 2008


You did not have to drop the f bomb.
posted by emmaannasam at 10:43 PM on January 17


you saved your virginity for that?
posted by gman at 8:03 PM on January 17, 2008


canadians don't say "fuck yeah", they say "fuck eh".
posted by bruce at 9:16 PM on January 17, 2008


Damn, but I wish that Dick Cheney would run run for President, with either Paul Wolfowitz or Condi Rice as his VP. And I wish that they would WIN.
posted by davidmsc at 10:19 PM on January 17, 2008


I like how this has turned into a riveting discussion of the issues. This is why I keep coming back to Metafilter, even after those dumb Youtube posts with all those meaningless comments make me want to leave for a bit.

Thanks, guys! :)
posted by blacklite at 10:21 PM on January 17, 2008


Well, better late than never, I guess...

No, wait, fuck that. And fuck the Conservatives for distancing themselves from this, as they inevitably will. And the Liberals for their previous complicity. And Canadians for their apathy and complacency, who'll celebrate this because it's a shot against the Americans, not because it's right or deserved.
No, we aren't really into that whole torturing thing, buuut we will hand over whomever you want to put the screws to like a good little enabler because it's easier to pay out ten million dollars of tax payer money and say 'Oopsie, our bad!' than it is to actually have some guts and protect our citizens.


I do love that Maxime Bernier, though. You could sink Herve Villacheve's corpse to the bottom of the Marianas trench and it still wouldn't be in over its head as deep as Petit Maxie is.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:58 PM on January 17, 2008


It's typical of the weak and pliable attitude of the news media toward US torture policies that the lead to this story is speculation about the likely reaction of the Canadian government to reporting about this document: "The revelation is likely to embarrass the minority Conservative government..."

In a way, though, it's funny that this is even news at all. Every one in the world basically knows that the US now tortures people (and in much more serious ways than this document acknowledges: "forced nudity, isolation, and sleep deprivation"...Piffle! Try drowning ('waterboarding') suffocation, electrocution, rape: really the Canadian document in the post is using weasel words to acknowledge the systematic US use of torture without being too hard on the Bushies.

RE: Arar/el Khadr etc: the Canadians have been the weakest of all the US allies when it comes to US torture and kidnapping of their citizens. Even the Brits eventually got a bunch of their innocents out of Guantanamo (I say innocents because I assume their are still some Brits there who the UK was willing to leave to our tender mercies); the Aussies as well, to say nothing of the Saudis, who've gotten a large number of their nationals repatriated and immediately freed them...Are our northern neighbors finally going to show some spine? I sort of doubt it, especially with this government, but the FPP shows that there's at least some hope.
posted by jackbrown at 12:09 AM on January 18, 2008


to say nothing of the Saudis, who've gotten a large number of their nationals repatriated and immediately freed them...Are our northern neighbors finally going to show some spine?

You know how they did it, to get some fellow Saudis out of Gitmo they had had some Canadian and British citizens kidnapped and framed for terrorism (William Sampson et al.) as leverage. Meanwhile the Canadian government would barely lift a finger to help the guy and where even telling his family that he probably did it. The whole thing stinks.
posted by bobo123 at 1:09 AM on January 18, 2008



It is snark (albeit poorly worded snark), unless your position is that America doesn't torture, I suppose.

I'm not buying your logic, but I can let it go at "poorly worded". For the record my position is that America has been torturing, and outsourcing torturing, and the part that really worries me is the apparently sincere attitude that it's all OK, right, and they're justified to do so.

It hurts to watch a good friend and neighbour go through all this. We hope your better nature prevails. I don't know whether some "tough love" from Canada would have any positive effect. But we should remain true to our own principles, no matter what.

BTW, we Canadians say Fuckin' A, not Fuck Eh. But now I do wanna watch Team America again this weekend. Thanks StavrosTWC.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:05 AM on January 18, 2008


Even the Brits eventually got a bunch of their innocents out of Guantanamo (I say innocents because I assume their are still some Brits there who the UK was willing to leave to our tender mercies)

I don't think there are any British citizens or residents in Gitmo any more.
posted by athenian at 10:34 AM on January 18, 2008




"The training manual is not a policy document and does not reflect the views or policies of this government," he said.

Um, guys, let's not get our touques in a twist just yet. It's just a bull shit periferal document, it's not like some sort of proclaimation from the PM. Wow.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:01 PM on January 18, 2008


JoeyMichaels: "My definition of torture remains 'that which somebody else does to extract information from somebody I like'."

That which people I like do to extract information from somebody else is... what?
- hazing?
- good clean fun?
- what she said?
- par for the course?
- suitable for framing?
- an episode of Fear Factor?
- implicitly indeterminate under the terms of the geneva convention?
- chartreuse?
- all in a day's work for Confuse-A-Cat?

I understand this was a viable snark. I'm just sayin'...
posted by ZachsMind at 12:59 PM on January 19, 2008




jackbrown wrote: Are our northern neighbors finally going to show some spine? I sort of doubt it, especially with this government, but the FPP shows that there's at least some hope.

Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier has issued a statement in an effort to pacify allies angry over a training manual for Canadian diplomats that lists the U.S. and Israel as countries where prisoners risk torture and abuse.

Bernier said the manual "contains a list that wrongly includes some of our closest allies."


Well, there goes that hope. Backbone is still noticeably absent. I expected this kind of backtracking and cowardice from the Conservative government, but it still disappoints me.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:57 PM on January 20, 2008


It'd be too depressing to go back and change the "Canada fuck yeah"s to "Canada fuck that"s, even if I could.

Ah well. Head down bum up, as our friends in the Antipodes say.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:52 PM on January 20, 2008


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