April 10, 2001

11:51 AM

is thisjustifiable? i'm sure that both sides have their own reasons. but, honestly ... all the fatalities. how can there be any possible rationale for the loss of so much?
posted by a11an (15 comments total)

"how can there be any possible rationale for the loss of so much?"

War. Maybe it's not exactly rational, but these two nations (peoples? groups? communities?) are very much at war.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:51 PM on April 10, 2001

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,105853,00.html
posted by Postroad at 12:54 PM on April 10, 2001

Rationale? It's the rationale of hatred, passed on from one generation to the next. Justification? Each atrocity provides justification for the next.
posted by quonsar at 1:00 PM on April 10, 2001

y6 is right...it is war. david and goliath...'cept that this time davey is an arab.
posted by mapalm at 1:19 PM on April 10, 2001

'cept that this time davey is an arab.

Don't be so sure. And don't be so sure you're getting the whole story.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:57 PM on April 10, 2001

but in the end, with hundreds (or maybe thousands) dying, will they be able to say that 'hatred' or differences in philosophy was what sent so many to their deaths? i think part of the problem is that should they try and stop, they'll have to sit down and see what it is that they have been doing "from one generation to the next."

wow. that's deep, bring a shovel.
posted by a11an at 4:01 PM on April 10, 2001

Moral equivalence was a dellusion with the Soviet Union (for those who bought it) and is a dellusion anywhere, be it the Middle East or China. Enough said (at least my me).
posted by ParisParamus at 5:57 PM on April 10, 2001

Check the link from the yahoo news page to the Telegraph in a11an's post:"Rabbi calls on God to annihilate the Arabs". A loving God?
I don't buy moral equivalence too ParisPriamus. A group of European (mostly) settlers, based on "their God's promise" creates a country in an already inhabited land, kills, exiles and wages war on locals and then insists that it has a right to attack them when they resist.
Israel is a fact: both it's creation and the (colonial) politics that created it the way it is. Israelis have the right to live in their country, the younger generation knows of no other. But until Israel accepts and acknowledges the horrors suffered by the Palestinians because of its creation, until it treats its non-Jewish population as equals, and accepts the Palestinians' right to statehood, there can be no lasting peace in the region.

Peace.
posted by talos at 2:41 AM on April 11, 2001

talos: very well said...and ParisParamus: What whole story are you talking about? Ever notice that when an Arab youth is gunned down, the media reports it as another "death," and when an Israeli is killed, it gets banner attention, accompanied by photo, name, etc...? And why are Palestinians always characterized as "protesters?" Why not "pro-democracy demonstrators?" Language is a powerful tool...You must dig deep for the truth.
posted by mapalm at 8:04 AM on April 11, 2001

Talos - so long as people equate bombing residential areas with "resistance" the violence will never end.
posted by Dreama at 12:18 PM on April 11, 2001

Maybe the Palestinians would have a better chance being called "pro-democracy demonstrators" if their proto-government wasn't run like a dictatorship or mafia?
posted by ParisParamus at 2:11 PM on April 11, 2001

maybe so, paris, but is that really reason enough to shoot children? to mow down villages? torture? imprison by the tens of thousands?
posted by mapalm at 3:22 PM on April 11, 2001

My only response, Mapalm is that I really don't know for sure what goes on over there, but that you don't either. What I find difficult to believe that Israel is acting like the police in South Africa during Apartheid. What if the children have guns? Or are next to adults with guns? I am highly skeptical of reports of what you describe which emminate from that same Palestinian authority, or people who support it, or even people who do don't support it, but would be imprisoned or murdered (this has happened; there has been some protest over the PA) if they told a European or American journalist "hey you know that building over there that was just leveled? It wasn't a house, but a building where they were making bombs." Since there's no free press amongst the Palestinians, and no free press in the Arab world, how can you be so sure of what's really happening?
posted by ParisParamus at 3:44 PM on April 11, 2001

i ought leave this alone, i know, paris...but i'm kinda new here, so on i stumble. i have been to israel/palestine 1o times in the last 4 years, making documentary films, so i think i know a tiny bit whereof i speak. do i know what's really happening. no. but i do make a point of accessing alternative information sources about palestine (not from the PA, but from independent news sources. though i bet i'll get slammed for saying it, i believe that there is a bias against arab people that somehow prevents some from seeing their side. 'nuff said by me...
posted by mapalm at 3:58 PM on April 11, 2001

Dreama:
In principle you are right. But let me suggest another perspective: Imagine you are someone who has seen family, friends, neighbours imprisoned, beaten, tortured, murdered, for your whole life. How easy is it to control your anger? A terrorized people will eventually resort to terror themselves. Plus the demented suicide bomber (and his existence by itself surely testifies to the brutality of the occupation) is not necessarily representative of the Palestinians as a whole, which seems to be a distinction seldom made by mainstream media, except when it involves Israelis such as Mr.Goldstein who walked in a mosque and gunned down tens of people with a machine gun.
Paris: Their "proto-government" is certainly dictatorial. A large part of the Palestinian people don't really like Arafat see this article for more. It seems though that a dictator in the West Bank is what Israel needs right now. A quisling gvt. in a bantustan-like palestinian reservation hardly offers itself for democratic rule. BTW the "we don't really know what's happening so we can" line is a favourite argument of all repressive regimes.
posted by talos at 5:36 AM on April 12, 2001