Kickin' it with savate

March 4, 2008 5:25 AM

Born on the streets of seafaring towns like Marseille, savate has evolved into a fighting art that rivals Muay Thai in ferocity and effectiveness. The history channel's outstanding Human Weapon series of videos explores the roots of this martial art. Modern match-ups in the ring range from the sublime to the ridiculous.
posted by Gordion Knott (27 comments total)

That last link is hilarious. Kind of puts the lie to some of the steampunk re-imaginings of superheroes.

"Fighter" #1: I, sir, will kick you thus!
"Fighter" #2: Nonsense, for I shall step nimbly 'round you!
"Fighter" #1: Oh, well played!

I thought Sherlock Holmes was a savateur, but the wikipedia link says it was bartitsu, which only incorporated savate. I also thought it was pronounced "sah-vah-TAY', so I guess I learned a lot this morning.
posted by DU at 5:45 AM on March 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Zut alors!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:06 AM on March 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I was mostly aware of this thanks to Professor Calculus' famous savate kick.
posted by Mocata at 6:25 AM on March 4, 2008

A bit of fun, but could you see yourself doing this at the age of 40/50/60? If not, then it has limited effectiveness. That is the metric by which those of us not extremely athletic and young measure the practicality of a martial art.

Casseux opened the first establishment in 1825 for practicing and promoting a regulated version of chausson and savate (disallowing head butting, eye gouging, grappling, etc).

The good stuff has been removed to gentrify the sport, as in all competition fighting. Still, it has a longer history than 'traditional' karate, for instance.
posted by asok at 6:52 AM on March 4, 2008

Well, you can't practice the "good stuff" at full speed with resistance.
It looks like most practitioners are athletes, not soldiers.
posted by Richard Daly at 7:28 AM on March 4, 2008

As mentioned in the Human Weapon video (part 2), Bruce Lee took a liking to certain Savate techniques, including the stop-kick (Chassee bas) -- which, to my knowledge, is similar in principle to the "jeet tek" leg-interception kick in Wing Chun. See also "pak tek", another similar move to a Savate kick.
posted by growli at 8:30 AM on March 4, 2008

Damn you, kittens for breakfast! I wanted ze Batroc Bragging Rights!
posted by Shepherd at 8:35 AM on March 4, 2008

Not sure about the claim that Savate rivals Muay Thai. Something about being throwing knees to the face from the clinch seems particularly ferocious and effective. But that third clip was priceless.
posted by Nquire at 8:43 AM on March 4, 2008

My favorite savate guy. See if you can catch the moment where he illegally bites the fat man's ear! He (Gerard) also had some nice moments working in pro wrestling in Japan.
posted by 1 at 8:54 AM on March 4, 2008

1, you did know that Gerard is also well-known for putting out an opponent's eye, right? From Wikipedia:

"He is remembered for his illegal eye-gouge of Yuki Nakai in the 1995 Japan Vale Tudo. Nakai went on to beat Gordeau by submission, but lost sight in his right eye from the gouge."
posted by growli at 9:11 AM on March 4, 2008

Not sure about the claim that Savate rivals Muay Thai.

Having studied a bit of Savate and done years of Muay Thai. Yeah. Seconded. Overall. The lack of complete clinch range in Savate is a serious problem for open rules fighting.

I do think Savate is very interesting. But people have to remember it's a "shoe" art. Where MT is bare foot. So those stinging little kicks of Savate that feel weak—when you put on solid shoes—can fuck some body up. Then you have the stick sub variant, Le Canne which is the shit.

It's not the techniques that are flawed but that they can only be truly mastered by a small sub set of fighters with a particular type of hip flexibility. For instance. I have always had trouble delivering real power with round kicks of Savate. First off, classically, you have to sink into the support leg as the kick lands and you have to point the toe into the target. My hips won't rotate quickly in that way. Most people I have trained with have had similar issues. Where as Thai Round kick, which lands with the shin, is pretty cave man simple (not that there is not subtlety in the kick— these is) and very easy to learn and get power. But many Savate techniques are hard for more post people to pull off.

That and the incessant bouncing around has always made me crazy. Though I do appreciate training it has improved my normal footwork immensely.

It makes me happy that Savate is getting more popular in France again. When we were there in January I was hoping to see an amateur bout, and there were several that week, but the ones that were closest were all sold out.
posted by tkchrist at 9:20 AM on March 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Damn you, kittens for breakfast! I wanted ze Batroc Bragging Rights!

Ho ho! It would zeem chatons pour le petit déjeuner eez too fast for you, mon frere!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:49 AM on March 4, 2008

Thanks for that link, tkchrist. I've always been interested in stick fighting, but there never seems anywhere to learn it.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:53 AM on March 4, 2008

I'm currently developing a script for a film called Idiot Savate about a developmentally disabled young man with an inexplicable talent for Savate Kickboxing. It's sort of a cross-pollination of Rain Man and Bloodsport. Ladies and gentlemen, prepare to witness the bone-crushing triumph of the human spirit.

Who says Hollywood is out of good ideas?
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:08 AM on March 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

ridiculous

Battle of the British Ballerinas!
posted by gottabefunky at 10:09 AM on March 4, 2008

Damn. That one dude in the video -- both arms broken and he kept fighting. And he ultimately won.

amazing.
posted by jason's_planet at 10:54 AM on March 4, 2008

1, you did know that Gerard is also well-known for putting out an opponent's eye, right?

Yeah, I think that fight was included in the (so-so) documentary about (the so-so) Rickson Gracie, Choke. It was a so-so fight.
posted by 1 at 11:42 AM on March 4, 2008

I've always wondered how competition fighting in any particular martial art prevented the eventual intrusion of other forms. You would think that certain strategies were just overwhelmingly effective, and would eventually dominate regardless of whatever nature of fight was supposed to occur.
posted by effugas at 11:59 AM on March 4, 2008

effugas - there are some mixed arts that came about thru that kind of evolution. the guys who developed kajukenbo apparently would go out, get into fights, and figure out what worked.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:52 PM on March 4, 2008

Typically French sophistication. In England we enjoyed the rougher art of shin-kicking.
posted by Abiezer at 1:07 PM on March 4, 2008

rmd--

Obviously it can happen. The question is why it doesn't inevitably happen. Is there some penalty for using a boxing move during Savate?
posted by effugas at 1:25 PM on March 4, 2008

Boy, all that fancy straight-leg kicking is going to be really helpful for the Jiu-Jitsu guy that's going to break off that leg and beat him with it.

Actually, I don't think savate even has much chance against some good Judo or Aikido. All those grabs and throws are well suited for chucking some poor straight-kicking fool to the ground and then laughing at them.
posted by loquacious at 1:44 PM on March 4, 2008

effugas - "Is there some penalty for using a boxing move during Savate?"

Actually, the punching techniques in Savate pretty much are straight western boxing. The combinations and the footwork are somewhat different just to accomodate mixing in the kicks.
posted by tdismukes at 2:22 PM on March 4, 2008

Usually, the rules of the competition dictate what eventually evolves into the most common techniques. For example, both BJJ and Judo are fairly similar grappling arts where people wear gis, and as such, are fairly similar. In both arts, you can win by either choke or arm-lock. However, in Judo you can also win with a good (ippon) throw, and you can lose by being pinned. Also, there is more limited time for groundwork in Judo. Thus, Judo techniques tend to be different from BJJ techniques -- Judoka can get away with a lot more stalling on the ground, and tend to focus more on the big throws, while BJJ people can be very methodical (they're not in danger of being stood up), and tend to focus more on the ground. Many techniques do cross, but the general focus is different, so people will tend to be better at different things, just because of the ruleset.
posted by Comrade_robot at 2:55 PM on March 4, 2008

“Where as Thai Round kick, which lands with the shin, is pretty cave man simple”

Yeah, they both have the hard guy tradition. Muay Thai is more direct. And a bit crazier.
I talked with a Muay Thai stylist who said he could break a femur with his shin kick because it (the kick) was so powerful and his shins were so hard and that’s why you don’t (he didn’t) kick hard surfaces in training.
Well, you can train to deliver shin kicks, and you can build up muscle, connective tissue and bone (intramembranous ossification), and no, you shouldn’t use a hard surface, but, I said, it was more likely that femurs get broken because of the angle of the strike.
Force is required, but precision and timing is more important (to catch the leg at the right angle, muscles unrelaxed, but with weight on it).
Why else, I said, would people lift their leg when recieving a kick but to take the weight off (the column shape that is) the femur? It’s basic engineering.

To prove me wrong he began shin kicking a support beam (encased in plaster) and shattering it.
The plaster I mean.
He broke his shin right in half when he hit the metal i-beam.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:59 PM on March 4, 2008

He broke his shin right in half when he hit the metal i-beam.

OW! OW! OW! OW!
Fuckity-fuck-fuck.

My running joke at the gym is yelling "HULK SMASH!" when I Thai kick. Because that's how it feels. So satisfying. Just a blunt bas-ball bat swing bashing into somebody. Easy to forget how hard they land. A couple week ends ago I landed a couple of leg kicks that made a very tough guy almost cry (I felt bad). My coach kicks so hard that I can't hold Thai pads for more than a round or two against him. I feel like I'm holding the gate at Helms Deep against the Orcs battering ram. Wow. That was nerdy.

Where as Savate I never feel very satisfied when the kicks land and tend to do them way too hard to try to force feed-back.

There are certain Savate kicks I really like. The "coup pied bas" sweep kick and even the flashy
but surprising "revers" (we used to call a twist kick). And I like all the low line fouette. But god damn are the mid and high line kicks hard to pull off while bouncing around like they do. I have nothing but respect for green-gloves and up in Savate. That shit is not easy.

Actually, the punching techniques in Savate pretty much are straight western boxing. The combinations and the footwork are somewhat different just to accommodate mixing in the kicks.

VERY true. In fact there area few old school "pure" boxing punches in there where they still assume you don't have gloves on. The traditional way Savateurs throw their hook —knuckles out— for instance. And some Savate schools still teach aiming for the back of the head with hooks (rabbit punches) which in modern sport boxing is a big no-no. Savate still has all that crazy old-school boxing stuff you see in ancient black and white film footage. And that stuff, when you adjust the posture to keep your hands high, works very well when you don't wear gloves.


the guys who developed kajukenbo apparently would go out, get into fights, and figure out what worked

Kajukembo figured out something that worked? They should teach that stuff at their schools one of these days.

I KEEEEED.

Boy, all that fancy straight-leg kicking is going to be really helpful for the Jiu-Jitsu guy that's going to break off that leg and beat him with it.

Pretty much. But there is a time and place for some of that. I've seen some stupendous knock outs with flashy kicks when a grappler has dropped his hands going for a wrestlers shoot (or when backing out from the same). The rule is if you don't know for sure you can knock somebody out with your kicks... best to keep it ugly, low, and simple. Actually that rule applies to everything.
posted by tkchrist at 3:58 PM on March 4, 2008

Another famous savateur: Cuthbert Calculus.
posted by my face your at 10:42 AM on March 5, 2008