Comments on: Is that a laser pointer in your pocket?

Is that a laser pointer in your pocket?

telstar — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 14:59:30 -0800

Laser pointer import ban in Oz Seems there's been a rash of people aiming laser pointers at planes in Oz. With an incident of a pilot being "temporarily blinded", this action may be a little less...well, as Oz politicians put it, "amusing". Previously.

All the laser pointers I've seen were red. These in the latest "coordinated attack" in the Sydney incident were green. Apparently prices have really come down on these new green babies.

By: Faint of Butt

Faint of Butt — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:06:25 -0800

What does the Wizard have to say about all this?

By: telstar

telstar — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:12:42 -0800

Well, the lasers are green, and then the name "Emerald City". He'd probably be ok with it.

By: dances_with_sneetches

dances_with_sneetches — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:12:51 -0800

Australia is referred to as Oz? Because I was hoping the incident was the downing of the wicked witch.

By: UbuRoivas

UbuRoivas — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:34:32 -0800

No, we downed the wicked witch last November.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:36:19 -0800

I wasn't all that surprised to see they don't allow laser pointers into the Oswald Maximum Security Prison either. What's that? Oh. Kind of unsure what exacly they're considering banning - I am picturing the little red dot being banned, meaning executives everywhere will have to go back to pointing with physical objects. Unconscionable. If the lasers are green, as the article says, and have the range to interfere with low/landing/uplifting aircraft, then that points more towards the commercial ones used for advertising signage and raves.

By: pompomtom

pompomtom — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:37:55 -0800

>Australia is referred to as Oz? Only by people who can't spell 'Aus'.

By: UbuRoivas

UbuRoivas — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:45:00 -0800

It's really just to distinguish Oztraya from Austria.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:10:51 -0800

I'm assuming they're talking about higher-powered models. I've seen videos of very high power lasers that are sold to consumers. here's one. This company sells a 350mW green laser, whereas the one on thinkgeek was less then 5mW.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:12:24 -0800

(here is a video of someone popping balloons with one)

By: Effigy2000

Effigy2000 — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:18:58 -0800

telstar, I don't see where in that link a politician has said it was amusing. Can you clarify this please? I see a CASA spokesman saying it's not amusing so I assume that's in response to someone saying it is amusing. But who? I can't imagine any pollie in his or her right mind saying it is. Anyway, I don't think we need to ban the sale of laser pointers. Way too nanny state for my liking, and they do have some legitimate uses in normal, everyday society. I do think we need to increase the penalties for doing stupid shit like this, however. And I'm not just talking about bigger fines. I'm talking about a huge jail term (25 years min) if you're proven to have used a laser pointer to try and blind an aircraft pilot. Then let it be known that that's what you face if you're going to try and do something like that.

By: birdherder

birdherder — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:22:01 -0800

Think of the kitties Australia! Cats love laser pointers.

By: dabitch

dabitch — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:34:07 -0800

> some legitimate uses in normal, everyday society Not trying to be annoying here, but what are these uses? I've never seen a green or red laser pointer being used for anything but mischief (or popping balloons, woo!) so I'm genuinely curious what they're really supposed to be used for.

By: david06

david06 — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:38:19 -0800

By: Faint of Butt

Faint of Butt — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:40:42 -0800

Red laser pointers are also the best cat toys ever invented.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:46:23 -0800

If you criminalize lasers, only the criminals will have lasers. Then what's going to happen, huh smartypants?

By: dabitch

dabitch — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:46:24 -0800

hehehe, the cat toy thing is true. I've seen laser pointers used at presentations. And honestly, one really doesn't need a super powerful bring-airplanes-down bright green (or red) laser for that, you can look just as wanky using your hands or an old-fashioned pointing device such as the long stick that serves to both pull down the screen you project your powerpoint on, and point at stuff on it with.

By: LastOfHisKind

LastOfHisKind — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:48:25 -0800

I was in a meeting with a guy who used a green laser to point at things on the screen. He was actually sitting behind me and I was turned sideways when he first fired the thing up. It was a big, industrial-look job with warning labels. Just looking at the dot on the screen made my eyes hurt and I cowered in fear at accidentally getting hit in the eye. I'm not saying that they should be illegal, but people shouldn't be wielding them around like a cooler version of a standard low-power red laser pointer. It's just not the same thing. Like the sign says: "Do not look into laser with remaining eye."

By: dabitch

dabitch — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:52:23 -0800

Even red laser pointers are eye-annoying when wielded by one of those guys who can't keep it still but spastically circle everything "important" on the the screen for like five minutes at a time while saying "and this here...uhm..is...the...uhm....uuuuhm..". Can we make that illegal? Please?

By: Dasein

Dasein — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:50:56 -0800

You have to wonder what kind of rocket scientists decide to point these things at planes full of people.

By: Matt Oneiros

Matt Oneiros — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:57:45 -0800

By: bystander

bystander — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:15:27 -0800

Green pointers produce a visible line - useful for pointing out astronomical objects. The red ones won't work for that. And of course, lasers make great sniper sights.

By: UbuRoivas

UbuRoivas — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:41:57 -0800

lasers make great sniper sights...in the movies. are they actually used by real snipers, though? it seems to me that a red dot moving about would kinda give the game away. or do snipers only go after solo victims?

By: delmoi

delmoi — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:03:31 -0800

It seems like most airplane cockpit designs would require a potential laser assailant to be at the same or greater altitude than the targeted plane. Perhaps a beam could shoot past a pilot's view perpendicular to the ground, but not into their eyes without being reflected. I think it's important for pilots to be able to, you know, see the ground. And the only way for that to work is if light from the ground can reach their eyes.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:15:20 -0800

This company sells a 350mW green laser, whereas the one on thinkgeek was less then 5mW. And cost $80, whereas you can pick up a nice 30mw job on DealExtreme for just $25 inc. postage. The laser geeks here swear by the bargains on Deal Extreme.

By: spaceman_spiff

spaceman_spiff — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:15:19 -0800

dabitch: They're used as pointers by teachers at pretty much all levels of education and by people giving presentations. For example, the remote controls of some computer projectors (like you'd use to project a Powerpoint) even have laser pointers built in, so you can use them to advance to the next slide and as a pointer. I admittedly haven't seen this very often, and always the dinky red ones. But I've never been able to find the dot without first figuring out what the presenter is intending to point at anyway. Am I the only one? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I'm somewhat colorblind?

By: !Jim

!Jim — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:15:28 -0800

I think it's important for pilots to be able to, you know, see the ground. And the only way for that to work is if light from the ground can reach their eyes.

Well, if you look at a jetliner cockpit, the windows are actually high enough that the pilots viewing angle is pretty close to 180 (that is, horizontal to the plane). I actually don't think that being able to see the ground is that important for most of the flight. I guess during landing it'd cause some problems, but even then it isn't as if pilots aren't trained to land in low-visibility situations. The other thing to consider along these lines is that airplanes move pretty damn quick. Even a Cessna is moving at about 150 MPH, with jetliners cruising 4-5 times faster. I'm not defending the shining of lasers in pilots eyes, I'm just saying banning them outright seems like a pretty harsh move, considering how difficult it would be to actually do anything to a plane with one.

By: mattoxic

mattoxic — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:36:41 -0800

Wow, I didn't realise that you could to that. I'm going to try it for myself. Seems like a daft thing to advertise- "Calling all dickheads, calling all dickheads, shining lasers at jet aircraft is a cheap thrill not to be missed- it really gets attention and possible even better that vandalising railway signals"

By: ssg

ssg — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:44:28 -0800

!Jim: The article in the second link reports that a pilot was blinded temporarily by a laser, which suggests that it is quite possible to shine a laser in a pilots eyes.

By: Catfry

Catfry — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:41:53 -0800

If the laserdude stands at the far end of the runway and the plane approaches some kilometers away, low and slow, I could se a direct line from laserdude to pilot.

By: rhymer

rhymer — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:19:39 -0800

Sounds like blatant protectionism to me. They're just trying to appease the powerful domestic laser pointer industry lobby.

By: loquacious

loquacious — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:53:05 -0800

Some of these newer lasers are bright enough that the reflected, diffused light off of a sheet of paper could seriously wreck your night vision or ability to see clearly. At the ranges we're talking about, beam divergence on most crappy pointers is going to be large, so it's not some tiny dot of light in a plane cockpit, we're talking about 2-10 feet wide of searingly bright light, like God's own flashlight beaming at them. That much light spread out over a dot couple feet or even a dozen feet wide is going to light up everything in a cockpit. There will be "hotspots" focused by any bent glass or curved reflective surfaces. And since it's a hand-held laser, the light won't be steady, either. The pilot will get a nice strobing effect as some moron tries to target the cockpit windows but can't quite keep it on target due to very minor hand movements. Kiss your night vision and ability to read the night-vision-safe cockpit instrumentation goodbye. Why do you think the US military uses laser pointers as "non lethal" dazzlers to blind potential threats? It works! Banning the lasers might, help, but it might not. They're easily importable. Almost anyone could pick one up while abroad and throw it in with some pens and office gear and it'd be hard to spot. In the US, it's a felony to beam a laser at any aircraft - stationary, flying, parked, taxiing, whatever - and as an enthusiast who used to run a laser show and play with lasers I think the law makes sense. Seriously, don't do this. Lasers are brighter and more dangerous than most people realize.

By: tabberone

tabberone — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:51:21 -0800

Well you know once a subject hits main stream tv it gets more press. Years ago they had this as an episode on CSI Miami

By: Leon

Leon — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:52:27 -0800

If you criminalize lasers, only the criminals will have lasers. Then what's going to happen, huh smartypants? Nobody would be able to burn DVDs any more. Seriously, how the hell do you ban something that's sitting in every PC in the country?

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:10:29 -0800

Dasein writes "You have to wonder what kind of rocket scientists decide to point these things at planes full of people." Really bad rocket scientists?

By: Molesome

Molesome — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:37:14 -0800

Years ago they had this as an episode on CSI Miami So when it eventually does hit the mainstream, its going to hit it big and maybe be part of a CSI Las Vegas plot!

By: yazi

yazi — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:52:27 -0800

When I clicked on Telstar's last link ("Amusing") it was the Sydney Herald's website. The Google-generated ad-box featured two companies selling a variety of hi-power green lasers, and one company selling pilot training. I like the irony.

By: LakesideOrion

LakesideOrion — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:08:35 -0800

Lots of surface-to-air missile systems use lasers for targeting. Maybe these incidents are causing false-positives on cockpit warning systems? Just a thought...

By: quin

quin — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:34:26 -0800

bystander : Green pointers produce a visible line - useful for pointing out astronomical objects. The red ones won't work for that. I suspect that, if any problem really exists, it probably stems from this. I've had friends use a green pointer when we had our telescopes out, and I could totally see them not noticing that they were pointing it in the direction of some small plane. "Look! There's Orion's belt!" "Hmm, I don't remember Mintaka wobbling that much. In fact, it looks a bit like it's falling from the sky..." "Weird."

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:13:21 -0800

By: loquacious

loquacious — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 05:03:21 -0800

I'm thinking I'll need to buy a cheap laser pointer, give it to my wife, drive to the other side of the valley to where they're developing some new properties, and have her point it my way. I have a real hard time believing there's a blinding dazzle. Back when just bare-bones OEM laser diode modules ran about 150-200 a pop, I still had an 8-10 milliwatt HeNe gas tube that I used for laser shows. 8-10mw these days is nothing, really. Your average cheap ass red laser diode pointer is 3-5mw. One of the first things I ever did with my tube laser was to go out at night, set it up on a tripod and drag an extension cord out to the sidewalk to shoot a stable, static beam all the way down my street, through a neighborhood park and eventually land on a distant garage door. Why? One, these things weren't portable. My tube was about 2.5 feet long, needed AC power, etc. Two, there was fog/dew in the park, rendering the beamline visible like a neon sign. Three, I wanted to see what the target looked like from about 1,500 feet away. It was huge, like 10 feet in diameter. Quite bright still, the whole garage door bathed in that weird specular diffusion glow that lasers do. I could see the ripples and distortions in the glass exit mirror, the ripples from convecting air distorting the beam. Looking back down the beamline was like looking towards an insanely bright flashlight. I could see a bit of blue-purple in the flare of the exit mirror, and the rest was just super-bright red, even standing off to the side and out of the actual beamline - I never actually looked at it from within the beam. Anyway, that's a tiny laser, on axis with steady beam. A cheap little laser pointer of similar wattage held in someone's hands isn't going to give very impressive results. However, some of those handheld pointers are 300mw, in a much brighter, easier to see green wavelength. I can't even imagine how insanely bright those are. Trust me. You'd see that. You might be able to see that in broad daylight, but at night if someone pointed it at you, you'd see it from like twenty miles away. 50mw would be enough.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:33:30 -0800

dabitch writes "I've never seen a green or red laser pointer being used for anything but mischief (or popping balloons, woo!) so I'm genuinely curious what they're really supposed to be used for." A laser is a crazy useful thing, even in hand held form. In the last couple weeks I've used a laser to assist in levelling a foundation pour, as a line of sight go/no-go validator in a game of 40K, lined up holes in framing for piping, and amused the cat. Besides a plain import ban where possession isn't also banned is going to be laughably ineffective.