Making Kissin' cousins look tame
April 6, 2008 6:58 PM Subscribe
One for the WTF file. While the rest of the world likes to think these things are 'only in America' (or whatever culture your culture likes to pick on as being odd) comes the story of an Austrailan woman who is quite open about the fact she has just had a child, fathered by her father. And not in a modern-science-fertility story way. No. In a 'my father and I are doing it' kind of way.
Creepiest bit is quote from the father:
For Mr Deaves the sexual relationship was "absolutely fantastic".
So - is this just yuck? Is it okay if both parties are consenting and the resulting child is okay (physically)? What about the fact that a photo has been published of the family, and the little girl is going to have to live with being 'that kid' from now on?
So - is this just yuck? Is it okay if both parties are consenting and the resulting child is okay (physically)? What about the fact that a photo has been published of the family, and the little girl is going to have to live with being 'that kid' from now on?
This post was deleted for the following reason: The link is a really thin writeup of a news-of-the-weird story, and the post is full of "squick, rite?" editorial/bloggish tone. This is really not a good way to post. -- cortex
Not okay unless you're Pharaonic. Or Kathryn Harrison.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:04 PM on April 6, 2008
posted by Countess Elena at 7:04 PM on April 6, 2008
From the Bible to the popular song,
Theres one theme that we find right along.
Of all ideals they hail as good,
The most sublime is motherhood.
There was a man, oh, who it seems,
Once carried this ideal to extremes.
He loved his mother and she loved him,
And yet his story is rather grim.
There once lived a man named oedipus rex.
You may have heard about his odd complex.
His name appears in freuds index
cause he loved his mother.
His rivals used to say quite a bit,
That as a monarch he was most unfit.
But still in all they had to admit
That he loved his mother.
Yes he loved his mother like no other.
His daughter was his sister and his son was his brother.
One thing on which you can depend is,
He sure knew who a boys best friend is!
When he found what he had done,
He tore his eyes out one by one.
A tragic end to a loyal son
Who loved his mother.
So be sweet and kind to mother,
Now and then have a chat.
Buy her candy or some flowers or a brand new hat.
But maybe you had better let it go at that!
Or you may find yourself with a quite complex complex,
And you may end up like oedipus.
Id rather marry a duck-billed platypus,
Than end up like old oedipus rex.
- Oedipus Rex by Tom Lehrer
posted by phrontist at 7:05 PM on April 6, 2008 [1 favorite]
Theres one theme that we find right along.
Of all ideals they hail as good,
The most sublime is motherhood.
There was a man, oh, who it seems,
Once carried this ideal to extremes.
He loved his mother and she loved him,
And yet his story is rather grim.
There once lived a man named oedipus rex.
You may have heard about his odd complex.
His name appears in freuds index
cause he loved his mother.
His rivals used to say quite a bit,
That as a monarch he was most unfit.
But still in all they had to admit
That he loved his mother.
Yes he loved his mother like no other.
His daughter was his sister and his son was his brother.
One thing on which you can depend is,
He sure knew who a boys best friend is!
When he found what he had done,
He tore his eyes out one by one.
A tragic end to a loyal son
Who loved his mother.
So be sweet and kind to mother,
Now and then have a chat.
Buy her candy or some flowers or a brand new hat.
But maybe you had better let it go at that!
Or you may find yourself with a quite complex complex,
And you may end up like oedipus.
Id rather marry a duck-billed platypus,
Than end up like old oedipus rex.
- Oedipus Rex by Tom Lehrer
posted by phrontist at 7:05 PM on April 6, 2008 [1 favorite]
Forget it, Jake. It's Australiatown.
posted by majorsteel at 7:11 PM on April 6, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by majorsteel at 7:11 PM on April 6, 2008 [1 favorite]
"I was looking at him, sort of going, oh, he's not too bad. Like you might look at a man across the bar at a nightclub."
So she had to get drunk to have sex with her own father.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:12 PM on April 6, 2008
So she had to get drunk to have sex with her own father.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:12 PM on April 6, 2008
I call BS. Zero health problems for the kid? These people are crazy, but in the telling-lies-to-strangers (or each other, or themselves) way.
posted by DU at 7:15 PM on April 6, 2008
posted by DU at 7:15 PM on April 6, 2008
Yeah, it makes me feel a bit squidgy, I'll admit. But you know what sounds equally creepy?
A South Australian police media spokesman said: "The couple is being monitored."
Monitored for what? And monitored how, exactly? And under what legal authority?
posted by mumkin at 7:16 PM on April 6, 2008
A South Australian police media spokesman said: "The couple is being monitored."
Monitored for what? And monitored how, exactly? And under what legal authority?
posted by mumkin at 7:16 PM on April 6, 2008
What does this mean: A South Australian police media spokesman said: "The couple is being monitored." Monitored?
posted by joannemerriam at 7:17 PM on April 6, 2008
posted by joannemerriam at 7:17 PM on April 6, 2008
So she had to get drunk to have sex with her own father.
Alcohol is a hell of a drug.
I call BS. Zero health problems for the kid?
Huh? I don't think Incest actually guarantees health problems, only increases their likelihood.
posted by delmoi at 7:17 PM on April 6, 2008
Alcohol is a hell of a drug.
I call BS. Zero health problems for the kid?
Huh? I don't think Incest actually guarantees health problems, only increases their likelihood.
posted by delmoi at 7:17 PM on April 6, 2008
"What about the fact that a photo has been published of the family, and the little girl is going to have to live with being 'that kid' from now on?"
It's OK. In 14-15 years, it will be her kid that gets to be 'that kid'.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:18 PM on April 6, 2008
It's OK. In 14-15 years, it will be her kid that gets to be 'that kid'.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:18 PM on April 6, 2008
What the fuck is up with South Australia?
I lived there for a couple of years, and our local corner store was "porn-deli".
One side of the store was your normal run-of-the-mill deli/sandwich/paper shop, the other half was a sex shop.
"That will be 2.50 for the frappachino, and 65.95 for the dildo, thank you, come again"
posted by mattoxic at 7:26 PM on April 6, 2008
I lived there for a couple of years, and our local corner store was "porn-deli".
One side of the store was your normal run-of-the-mill deli/sandwich/paper shop, the other half was a sex shop.
"That will be 2.50 for the frappachino, and 65.95 for the dildo, thank you, come again"
posted by mattoxic at 7:26 PM on April 6, 2008
I call BS. Zero health problems for the kid?
Eh. The risks for a single child aren't incredibly high. Assume that both father and mother/daughter carry autosomal recessive mutations that predispose someone with two copies of the recessive gene to a disease. You'd expect the kid to be homozygous recessive for that trait about 1/4 of the time. So the risk for one kid isn't all that high - about 25%.
When you get lots of children and multiple generations of inbreeding, the risks become much higher, because you're drawing from the same pool repeatedly, and harmful mutations don't get diluted by the rest of the population.
(This is a very simplified model, of course, ignoring linkage, dominant disorders, multiple-gene disorders, and lots of other population genetics confounding factors. The conclusion that a single inbred birth isn't a huge risk remains pretty much the same, though)
posted by chrisamiller at 7:29 PM on April 6, 2008
Eh. The risks for a single child aren't incredibly high. Assume that both father and mother/daughter carry autosomal recessive mutations that predispose someone with two copies of the recessive gene to a disease. You'd expect the kid to be homozygous recessive for that trait about 1/4 of the time. So the risk for one kid isn't all that high - about 25%.
When you get lots of children and multiple generations of inbreeding, the risks become much higher, because you're drawing from the same pool repeatedly, and harmful mutations don't get diluted by the rest of the population.
(This is a very simplified model, of course, ignoring linkage, dominant disorders, multiple-gene disorders, and lots of other population genetics confounding factors. The conclusion that a single inbred birth isn't a huge risk remains pretty much the same, though)
posted by chrisamiller at 7:29 PM on April 6, 2008
There's more here about this family, inlcuding a trancscript of the TV interview which partly explains the whole thing about the couple being monitored.
posted by bunglin jones at 7:35 PM on April 6, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by bunglin jones at 7:35 PM on April 6, 2008 [1 favorite]
A South Australian police media spokesman said: "The couple is being monitored."
Well, I'm not a lawyer, but s.72 of the S. Australia Criminal Law Act states:
"Any persons who, being related, either as parent and child or as brother and sister, have sexual intercourse with each other shall be guilty of incest and liable to be imprisoned for a term not exceeding seven years."
posted by phyrewerx at 7:36 PM on April 6, 2008
Well, I'm not a lawyer, but s.72 of the S. Australia Criminal Law Act states:
"Any persons who, being related, either as parent and child or as brother and sister, have sexual intercourse with each other shall be guilty of incest and liable to be imprisoned for a term not exceeding seven years."
posted by phyrewerx at 7:36 PM on April 6, 2008
Monitored for what?
"I knew it was illegal - of course, I knew it was illegal - but you know, so what?"
Presumably for more father-daughter goings-on.
posted by CKmtl at 7:37 PM on April 6, 2008
"I knew it was illegal - of course, I knew it was illegal - but you know, so what?"
Presumably for more father-daughter goings-on.
posted by CKmtl at 7:37 PM on April 6, 2008
It's not only that they published a picture of their kid- they appeared on 60 Minutes (link for video and transcript), and the step-kids were interviewed too.
While the stepkids are from a previous relationship and are not the products of incest, they're still gonna have a helluva time at school today, and fora long time. Apparently they're fine with the relationship, although they were so young when their mother started the relationship with her father, that they probably are just used to it.
I have absolutely NO idea why they thought going on a national TV show would be a good idea.
posted by indienial at 7:39 PM on April 6, 2008
While the stepkids are from a previous relationship and are not the products of incest, they're still gonna have a helluva time at school today, and fora long time. Apparently they're fine with the relationship, although they were so young when their mother started the relationship with her father, that they probably are just used to it.
I have absolutely NO idea why they thought going on a national TV show would be a good idea.
posted by indienial at 7:39 PM on April 6, 2008
From the header of the article:
A SOUTH Australian woman has given birth to her father's son after the couple had sex.
I'm glad they specified that's how it happened, or I would have thought that the Australian stork had a really weird sense of humor.
posted by louche mustachio at 7:39 PM on April 6, 2008 [2 favorites]
A SOUTH Australian woman has given birth to her father's son after the couple had sex.
I'm glad they specified that's how it happened, or I would have thought that the Australian stork had a really weird sense of humor.
posted by louche mustachio at 7:39 PM on April 6, 2008 [2 favorites]
What does this mean: A South Australian police media spokesman said: "The couple is being monitored." Monitored?
No, monitored.
posted by Atreides at 7:39 PM on April 6, 2008
No, monitored.
posted by Atreides at 7:39 PM on April 6, 2008
what, exactly, about this makes it the "best of the web?"
posted by Ironmouth at 7:43 PM on April 6, 2008
posted by Ironmouth at 7:43 PM on April 6, 2008
While the rest of the world likes to think these things are 'only in America' (or whatever culture your culture likes to pick on as being odd) ...
I'll take the Greeks for 500, Alex.
posted by Avenger at 7:43 PM on April 6, 2008
I'll take the Greeks for 500, Alex.
posted by Avenger at 7:43 PM on April 6, 2008
I have absolutely NO idea why they thought going on a national TV show would be a good idea.
When you have piss poor judgment, it usually doesn't just manifest itself in one bad decision.
posted by orange swan at 7:44 PM on April 6, 2008 [5 favorites]
When you have piss poor judgment, it usually doesn't just manifest itself in one bad decision.
posted by orange swan at 7:44 PM on April 6, 2008 [5 favorites]
I think that the negative genetic results of incest are wildly over-exaggerated in terms of the immediate generation resulting. Unless the family has some genetic illness that they are both carrying, what else would be the immediate repercussions? Royal families in the not-too-distant past relied on incest to keep bloodlines "pure" after all. As far as I've understood, the incest taboo has more to do with increasing the size, strength and status of ones family than anything else (marrying outside of the family unit gained familial allies and strengthens bonds with outside family units, and lead to wealth through dowry/bride brizes, etc). Look at dogs and other show animals which are inbred to preserve breed qualities - its not like the first litter to come out of such inbreeding would be some horribly disfigured, drooling creature. So why would that be true for us?
The incest taboo is one that culturally we are highly aware of, but the large amounts of reported (and an unknown amount of unreported) incest cases (both consensual and non-) would make it clear that it obviously happens and with a great degree of regularity. There's not only a few people out there like this lady championing such relationships, but lord knows there is a whole genre of incest-taboo violating porn (lets not even get started on VC Andrews' books), which means there has to have an audience somewhere, right? One reason for closed adoptions as the standard option, especially in the past, was that the child may have been the result of inter- or intra-generational incest within a family, and it would be unfair for the child to grow up with that stigma. Now, I think that hereditary diseases, etc, would mean that it could be rolling the dice with your child's health, but there's no reason to immediately discount the child's health other than our own culturally conditioned heebie jeebies.
posted by SassHat at 7:51 PM on April 6, 2008
The incest taboo is one that culturally we are highly aware of, but the large amounts of reported (and an unknown amount of unreported) incest cases (both consensual and non-) would make it clear that it obviously happens and with a great degree of regularity. There's not only a few people out there like this lady championing such relationships, but lord knows there is a whole genre of incest-taboo violating porn (lets not even get started on VC Andrews' books), which means there has to have an audience somewhere, right? One reason for closed adoptions as the standard option, especially in the past, was that the child may have been the result of inter- or intra-generational incest within a family, and it would be unfair for the child to grow up with that stigma. Now, I think that hereditary diseases, etc, would mean that it could be rolling the dice with your child's health, but there's no reason to immediately discount the child's health other than our own culturally conditioned heebie jeebies.
posted by SassHat at 7:51 PM on April 6, 2008
I was hoping this would lead to a discussion
This intention usually doesn't play well here.
posted by stopgap at 7:55 PM on April 6, 2008
This intention usually doesn't play well here.
posted by stopgap at 7:55 PM on April 6, 2008
As far as I've understood, the incest taboo has more to do with increasing the size, strength and status of ones family than anything else
I always thought it was to protect minors from sexual abuse at the hands of the adults and older or stronger minors who were their family members.
posted by orange swan at 7:55 PM on April 6, 2008
I always thought it was to protect minors from sexual abuse at the hands of the adults and older or stronger minors who were their family members.
posted by orange swan at 7:55 PM on April 6, 2008
I always thought it was to protect minors from sexual abuse at the hands of the adults and older or stronger minors who were their family members.
Yes, that is part of our modern view of incest - to protect minors from abuse and molestation from within the family. But what of our cultural distaste of incest between consenting adults?
And back in the day when you were marrying girls off at 12, 13 years old anyway. So the age/consent thing wasn't really an issue. Really you sent her off to some neighbor's son rather than to your own because it meant you got some new goats and added status to your family. Being safe from sexual abuse was more of a happy side effect for girls, in that maintaining a girl's virginity ensured you'd be able to marry her off...and profit.
posted by SassHat at 8:01 PM on April 6, 2008
Yes, that is part of our modern view of incest - to protect minors from abuse and molestation from within the family. But what of our cultural distaste of incest between consenting adults?
And back in the day when you were marrying girls off at 12, 13 years old anyway. So the age/consent thing wasn't really an issue. Really you sent her off to some neighbor's son rather than to your own because it meant you got some new goats and added status to your family. Being safe from sexual abuse was more of a happy side effect for girls, in that maintaining a girl's virginity ensured you'd be able to marry her off...and profit.
posted by SassHat at 8:01 PM on April 6, 2008
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posted by sugarfish at 7:03 PM on April 6, 2008