She writes about an NBC website poll that asks if other parents would let their kid try and make their way home alone, and that half said no while another 20% said maybe. I can understand why, even though I agree with her point—because knowing objectively that random violence is statistically unlikely and extremely hard to prevent, and then taking that thought and trotting it over to "I trust my kid will not be a victim of that random violence today" is difficult when your kid is worth so much to you. It's an easy bet to take when it's someone else's kid, and much harder when it's your own.
That said, I started taking the subway in Toronto to get to school each day when I was 12. My mom came with me the first day to make sure I was alright, and then I was on my own. I'm still here! posted by chrominance at 7:24 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
You know, when I first read this story, I thought there must have been something missing -- where was the part that sparked such outrage? After realizing the mere horrifying act was letting a 9 year old boy ride the subway alone, I was awestruck that people were so up in arms over it.
I grew in NYC. I got a scholarship to music school on the Upper East Side which meant travelling to classes every Saturday morning by myself on the subway. Two transfers, about a 45 minute trip. I was 8 years old, with two tokens, a dime for a phone call, a snack and a satchel full of piano music. It was the 70s.
Not only am I still alive, but from that point on, nowhere in New York was out of my reach. It was like learning to drive but better. And I firmly believe that doing that travelling early helped me be able to grow up to be independent, resourceful and less afraid that my more sheltered contemporaries. posted by ltracey at 7:30 PM on April 11 [26 favorites]
I started taking the public bus by myself everyday in 2nd grade. That would make me 7 or 8. I had been taking public transportation with my brothers since kindergardten, so its not like I was figuring stuff out for myself. I just got tired of y brothers making me late in the mornings
It was in big city DC, and I never remember having a serious problem. posted by Suparnova at 7:32 PM on April 11
I live in an absurdly safe suburb of washington DC. My parents were wary about me walking around on my own until about 14. Meanwhile my dad told stories about hitchiking to New York City to rendezvous with a girl the summer after his sophomore year of high school. posted by phrontist at 7:35 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
This seems like a good place for a "back when I was a kid" response.
Back when I was a kid, I would go off into the farmer's property next door to our house and wander through fields and forest, down streams, up hills until I was good and lost. I never once imagined I wouldn't be able to find my way home eventually, and I always did. I was sometimes gone for six or seven hours. This was when I was like in first and second grade.
I'd ask my mom if I could go over to my friend's house several blocks away and would then ride my bike there. If my mom had any concerns about the trip, it was whether it would be ok with my friends' mother if I was over there for a while. The worst thing that ever happened to me peddling over there would be when the dirt road was wet and the bike would get slogged in.
One time, my cousin and I were off in the woods without parental supervision and we found the neighbor's cat and tried to pick it up. Not because we were going to do anything bad with it, but because we liked cats. When I picked it up, it went ape shit and left me covered with scratches. My cousin, being the sort of guy who'd do this, then tried to pick up the cat and got covered with scratches. We went home, they covered us with bactine and bandages and booted us back outside, where we got in more mischief.
What about those kidnappers? Well, they were there back then, too, because I remember my mom regularly telling me not to talk to strangers or get in the car with strangers. That seemed to be reasonably effective, as nobody I know or knew was ever kidnapped.
The world is not considerably more dangerous these days. I lament the fact that most kids aren't learning to get by on their own, or to put trusting and not trusting appropriate people into practice, or learning how to judge whether a situation (like picking up the neighbor's cat in the woods) is a good idea or a bad idea. Experience is one of the greatest teachers. Authentic, unplanned, unguarded experiences.
What was one of those lies that guy tells his three year old? I'll always be there for you?
the kid's probably so full of Ritalin it doesn't really make a difference if an adult's there or not -- he wouldn't even notice posted by matteo at 7:37 PM on April 11 [3 favorites]
we're people upset about this because they think NY subway is still unsafe? posted by bhnyc at 7:37 PM on April 11
Same for me*. I'd go out at age 12 or so "on my bike" with my friends. That was all the location I needed to give. Other than "don't play on the railway" (which we duly ignored, but were super careful because we knew if we got caught there we'd be fried) we needed no guidance beyond the obvious 'don't talk to strangers'.
I remember cycling to various local villages - to my mate's house 6 miles away or more - and it never being an issue other than being late home. I used to bike across fields and along country roads all over the place trying to quench my fascination with 'cutting through' to somewhere else a new way.
What a load of fuss.
*England, 1984 onwards posted by Brockles at 7:41 PM on April 11
because they think NY subway is still unsafe?
Exactly. Except for a few stations in remote areas (and maybe in the wee hours when the kid should be at home anyway) the subways are a lot safer these days. the most you'll encounter these days is a panhandler. posted by jonmc at 7:43 PM on April 11
I remember, not too long ago in the days of my youth probably when I was about fifteen, going to a dental appointment.
From this dental appointment I went to my friends house and we got drunk together and crashed out on his floor.
From his floor at about two pm the next day we went into town, met up with some other friends, drank some more, headed back to a different friends house and passed out on a different floor.
From this floor I got up at about two o clock the next day and got a bus home, eventually staggering in at about three o clock. My dad looked up from his computer to me and said,
"Oh hey, how was the dentists?"
but then, between nine and fifteen is a pretty big difference, if I'd done this back then I doubt my parents would ever have forgiven me. posted by emperor.seamus at 7:45 PM on April 11
There was a really amazing article out of England about a year ago about the distances youths travel. Basically, the grandfather would walk several Km to his favorite fishing hole as a child, and he never fell in, never drowned, never died, never got raped or molested. Then the father (the author of the article) as a child would routinely travel several hundred yards away from home as a young child to visit his favorite swimming hole, alone, or with friends...and he was always fine, and that was the 60's/70's. Now this guy has a kid, and that kid isn't allowed outside of his yard, and the author basically just discussed the affects of quashing the exploratory and independent side of young boys.
As a youth (gasp, late 80's) I would often do crazy things like go for multi-mile hikes with just my dog and a bottle of water. As a 7 year old in 1987 I would often walk to my mom's office from school, about 2 miles and through a city...across streets w/o crossing guards. I guess there's a difference between that and the big city, but...whatever. Kudos to her kid for being grown up. posted by TomMelee at 7:48 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
Back when I was a kid, I would go off into the farmer's property next door to our house and wander through fields and forest, down streams, up hills until I was good and lost. I never once imagined I wouldn't be able to find my way home eventually, and I always did. I was sometimes gone for six or seven hours. This was when I was like in first and second grade.
This was my exact life. We may have been neighbors! posted by jessamyn at 7:49 PM on April 11
Yeah, I had been taking the subway since I was about 11. That being said, I did get hounded on several occasions by the same pedophile who kept on inviting me out for coffee and staring at me like I was a juicy piece of delicious filet mignon.
But I was street-smart enough to know not to trust this old perv.
I guess it depends on the kid. If he wants his/her independence, he/she might be more likely to do well out in the big city. If he/she doesn't, well, I guess one shouldn't force it on them. posted by bitteroldman at 7:50 PM on April 11
I'm pretty sure that, once you're among the demographic of those whose loins have borne fruit, conversations on how to raise your children should be given the same treatment as conversations about politics and religion. That is, everybody needs to calm the fug down and/or shut the fug up unless they wanna fight about it. But of course, some people do wanna fight about it. This Skenazy lady is surely trolling, but I admit it must be fun to provoke the people she is.
When I have mine, I'm going to sew my kid a superhero outfit and give them a pair of scissors, and tell them to run (yeah! run!) through the mall liberating all those kids who are attached to their parents by a leash. posted by krippledkonscious at 7:57 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
Talk about cognitive dissonance. When I heard about this my first reaction was, "What a horribly irresponsible parent." But then I remembered being allowed to do much the same myself (admittedly in a small rural town) and getting on just fine. In fact I'm proud of the extent to which I wandered as a child. But part of my mind freaks right the fuck out at the prospect of my child wandering around unsupervised. It's totally irrational, but I can't help it. posted by lekvar at 7:58 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
When I was about 9 or 10 I used to walk up and down the block, visiting my (usually elderly) neighbors and hitting them up for candy or soda. I was a lonely child and I think alot of the old folks on my block were a bit lonely too. They always seemed to enjoy my presence and were very generous with the candy.
The sad thing, though, is that if I had a son nowadays, I'm not so sure I'd let him do stuff like that. I understand, in a logical sort of way, that the chances of anything bad happening are infinitesimally small, so on and so forth. But 25 years of being constantly bombarded with FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FOR YOUR CHILDREN OR MONSTERS WILL EAT THEM FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR 24/7, 365 have given me some kind of Pavlovian-response to letting children out of earshot. I honestly believe that, in a certain sense, I've been literally brainwashed by the media to have these irrational fears that I never had as a child. posted by Avenger at 8:00 PM on April 11 [13 favorites]
I used to take the subways home, drunk at 1am, when I was 14. When were the subways unsafe? Prior to that, I must assume. posted by birdie birdington at 8:00 PM on April 11
Subways, plural? Okay, maybe I'm drunk now too. posted by birdie birdington at 8:03 PM on April 11
Most kids, especially those raised in big cities, have good instincts and can spot the pervs and other assorted weirdos better than their parents. I'm on the subway (NYC) last weekend taking my 7 yo niece to her piano lessons when some clean-cut suit walks up and asks for directions. After I offer him help and he goes on his way, my niece says, "that guy's a total freak". I always trust her appraisals. posted by hojoki at 8:05 PM on April 11 [13 favorites]
We took the public bus starting in 1st or 2nd grade. The biggest danger was the older kids looking for someone to pick on. posted by fshgrl at 8:06 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
This woman was on talk of the nation this week, it was a pretty good segment.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89502019 posted by OldReliable at 8:19 PM on April 11
I think Lenore Skenazy is missing the point. Most people were ok with letting their kids on the subway, just at a later age. Nine does seem a bit young in general, but yeah if you know the kid it's much easier to make the call on whether they'll be ok.
This reads like another democrat/republican "issue" where people take their sides and bitch about the other and in the end no one has learned a thing.
Anyway...
finest childhood memory? Having some friends come over one winer day and suggest "Let's ride our bikes to Patapsco Park". We were gone all day, exploring old rock quarrys and riding our bikes on ice covered lakes and sharing a couple of candy bars for lunch. When I got back home, mom asked where I had been all done, I told her and she just said "Oh, you rode your bikes all the way out there and back? You'll sleep good tonight." She was right.
Second favorite: exploring the woods behind our suburban house and discovering that farms, real live farms existed on the other side of the woods. I quickly took note of where the electric towers were to orient myself and had a ball exploring vast fields of corn.
Third favorite memory of childhood: Rachelle. posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:21 PM on April 11
Does anyone have a link to the subway poll? I question how it was worded - I mean, parents who don't regularly use public transit with their children, aka the vast majority of US parents, have every right to be more wary about letting their kid out on the train alone. posted by fermezporte at 8:24 PM on April 11
I don't think my mother would let me ride the NY subway, and I'm 34. posted by Lucinda at 8:26 PM on April 11 [6 favorites]
What she saying is that her 9 year old is very smart - at least smarter than 2 out of 3 nine year olds that have lived in this household.
My kids discovered the wonders of the CTA towards 12 or 13, when they had places to go. We live a half block from an EL station and they figure out how to get to Chinatown for Dim Sum.
Oh, for the good old days when you got a monthly pass with unlimited trips. Nowadays they have to pay per trip, and they have limited discretionary spending. Getting rides from parents is cheaper. posted by readery at 8:39 PM on April 11
I allow my 5 year old daughter to do a lot more things than most parents will allow for their kids of the same age. Things like: using the toaster, cutting with a blunt knife, operating household appliances that aren't likely to boil over on her, crush her, or remove limbs, make telephone calls by herself, leave the yard to go 3 houses down to her friend's yard without me hovering over her, use the bathroom in public places with me standing outside the door waiting, and going to different aisles in the store to fetch items when I can't see her... etc.
I've been called an irresponsible parent a few times for letting her do things I think are sort of trivial. I don't agree with that at all. Yet, the same parent who told me I shouldn't let my daughter put things in the toaster "because she could get shocked!" has a 12 year old who can't do anything on his own and she's always complaining that he's helpless and she has to do everything for him. I wouldn't let my kindergartener to take the bus across town alone at this point, but there will come a day when she's allowed to do that too. Because I know her and I think I'll know when she's responsible enough to handle that, just like with everything else.
You know what? Every time I let the leash out just a tiny bit more, I feel anxious and nervous and a little scared. It makes me want to reel her back in and not let her go. It makes me feel sad that I'm losing my "baby". I'm sure this woman felt the same way. But I think she's doing her son a great service to let him try some of this stuff out. posted by howrobotsaremade at 8:43 PM on April 11 [25 favorites]
Fear is the mind killer. Both parent and child. posted by Freen at 8:56 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
From the time I was 12 I traveled alone from the Bronx to Manhattan every day.
I feel sorry for kids growing up today being shielded from everything and being made to fear everything. The truth is things AREN'T any different now than they were 30-40 years ago. TV, Radio, and the internet just make it seem like it's more dangerous thanks to the hysterical reporting. posted by mike3k at 8:56 PM on April 11
My 13 year old nephew has been taking the subway alone for at least a couple years, and not because he's selling candy to stay out of trouble. Admittedly, the kid is street savvy and self-assured but there's very little to fear from the subways these days.
As a geeky 11 year old, I would ride the train to go spend my meager savings at the Compleat Strategist. When I'd get back, new hardbound D&D rulebook in hand, my mother would sigh, "oh great, you made it." posted by JaredSeth at 9:01 PM on April 11
Lots of anecdotes here. I wonder how you could empirically answer the question. Is the world inherently less safe for kids these days than in the past?
I don't have kids yet but with my friends' kids, it seems like life is sooo supervised and scheduled. I can't imagine any of them sending them off on their bikes with $5 in their pocket and being totally happy not to hear from them for 10 hours the way I grew up. Pretty sad actually now that I thik about it. posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:09 PM on April 11
> The truth is things AREN'T any different now than they were 30-40 years ago.
Actually, in many places, they're significantly safer now. (Although I don't think that even at the height of the crime problems in NYC that children were ever a major target. If you're going to mug someone, a 9-year-old with a couple of bucks and a train token isn't exactly the way to go.)
I think what's happened is that as cities have actually gotten safer, with less everyday street crime going on, the news networks have started spending more ink on the really rare, really weird stuff; stuff that's always existed ("don't take candy from strangers" was good advice long before 1990), but just got lost in the noise. Now, as we've made some inroads on traditional, economically-motivated crime, people are left with a perception that the really weird stuff -- which doesn't respond as well to rational incentives -- is on the rise. My gut tells me that it isn't. Even back in the 'good old days,' every town had a few pretty awful skeletons; now we're scaring ourselves silly with them. posted by Kadin2048 at 9:14 PM on April 11 [7 favorites]
Kadin, did you read the collection a few threads down of "nasty shit happens" newspaper articles circa 1885 or so? posted by Naberius at 9:19 PM on April 11
When my parents bought their new house on the North Shore, and found me getting under their feet on moving day, they drew me a little map of the neighbourhood, put the dog on a leash, and told me to take her for a walk and go and check out my new school, which was not far-- about five blocks-- but was up and over a hill and certainly out of eyeshot. I found the school by locating landmarks ("go past the big willow tree"), sat on the swings in the playground for a while, then headed back, bursting to report what I had found.
I was six. This level of independence for young children used to be considered completely normal. posted by jokeefe at 9:20 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
You know, something probably very obvious just occurred to me.
One of the things I remember from my childhood was the abundance of kids running around doing whatever they pleased. Sometimes we played by ourselves but usually had a sibling or friends to take along. And also, you could be 100% certain that if you were doing something wrong the nosy neighbor lady would be on the phone to your parents somewhere down the line.
What I think makes people feel like the world is less safe is a lack of community. It's hard to know your neighbors in a lot of cities. It seems like people keep to themselves much more than they did when I was younger.
And if you are the type to let your kids go "free range", sometimes there aren't very many other kids for them to roam around with. That also takes away one of the things that probably kept us safer. The bigger kids looked out for the smaller kids and we were also being watched by the adults who were around, even if we didn't know it. posted by howrobotsaremade at 9:24 PM on April 11 [21 favorites]
I can't even begin to imagine what a crazy beast I would have been if I didn't spend every waking hour tromping all over creation, from morning until well past nightfall. The farm next door? Check, and the one over there, and the one over there until someone told me to "GET OFFA MY PROPITTY!" Bike rides to the lake? Oh yes. Falling out of trees, getting bitten by everything that could bite me, tangled up in bike chains and barbed wire? That's what tetanus shots are for.
On top of all that, the guy in the car that pulls up and says "hey little girl, need a ride?" Actually happened to me outside the elementary school. Those exact words. Did my parents freak out and suddenly assume we were all going to be abducted and murdered, and keep us cloistered in the house all day? Well, since I had enough sense to say "no" that course of action clearly wasn't necessary. Anyone who says that makes them "irresponsible" or "bad" parents gets a boot in the ass. posted by louche mustachio at 9:26 PM on April 11 [6 favorites]
I was raised free range in the suburbs of Ann Arbor, MI. At age seven my normal range was about a mile in any direction.
One day I was at the downtown YMCA and due to a miscommunication between parents I was left waiting for a ride (it turned out later they were an hour off). After 45 minutes I decided to walk home, a route that I was certain I could navigate. It was about 4 miles.
Two miles into it as I was walking along a more rustic part of the route, a van pulled over and the man inside asked me if I wanted a ride. I said no. He kept trying to convince me. I kept saying no. Eventually he got out of the van and attempted to physically force me into it.
At about that same time a woman from my neighborhood happened to be driving by and pulled over. The guy hopped back into the van and took off.
Then the neighbor woman had to force me into her car, as I had set out to walk home and I was pretty annoyed with people's continuing interference with that plan.
As we drew near her house a police car starting following us, and when we got there the police officer got out and started asking questions. It turned out that a man in a tall apartment building on a hill near where I had been picked up had seen the altercation and called the police, but by the time he got down to the street all he could do was get the license plate of my neighbor's car.
My mother was certainly much more traumatized by the whole thing than I was, and I've never thought much about the possibilities until earlier this very year while reading through the transcript in this thread.
[Forrest Gump impression]: And that's all I have to say about that... posted by tkolar at 10:04 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
On top of all that, the guy in the car that pulls up and says "hey little girl, need a ride?" Actually happened to me outside the elementary school. Those exact words. Did my parents freak out and suddenly assume we were all going to be abducted and murdered, and keep us cloistered in the house all day? Well, since I had enough sense to say "no" that course of action clearly wasn't necessary. Anyone who says that makes them "irresponsible" or "bad" parents gets a boot in the ass.
posted by louche mustachio at 12:26 AM on April 12 [1 favorite -] Favorite added! [!]
Exactly right. A friend of mine was nearly kidnapped off the street of a suburb of Boston. After asking for directions, he reached through the window and starting hauling her into the car. Luckily a teenager saw it happen, ran to the car screaming, grabbed hold of her and dragged her back out and the creep drove away.
That was 35 years ago.
Since then we have been bombarded with nothing but exaggerated fears about kids being stolen. The fear is way out of proportion to reality. I hope there's a special place reserved in hell, in my opinion, for the fear mongers who have created a society has so many people living in fear. I'm all for teaching kids safety tips but at the same time, they should know how very unlikely it is that this kind of stuff will happen to them.
Unless this woman has been proven to be a terrible mother, she is the best judge of what her kid can handle. If he's taking a fairly straightforward route and/or is quite comfortable with the train, he should be able to ride and everyone who objects should just buzz off. posted by etaoin at 10:05 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
What I think makes people feel like the world is less safe is a lack of community. It's hard to know your neighbors in a lot of cities. It seems like people keep to themselves much more than they did when I was younger.
I recently left a neighborhood that was magically old-timey like that. Kids up and down the block, shouting, and playing street hockey or riding their bikes. And everyone kept an eye on the kids, from us (the childless couple) to the single guy a few doors down to the elderly woman next door. When my cat went missing, for two weeks every child in the neighborhood was crawling under sheds or calling for him in between games. My new neighborhood's fancier, but I'm only now realizing what a rare gift my old one was and specifically how much easier it must be to be a parent there than here (or most places). posted by Mayor Curley at 10:07 PM on April 11
When I was 3 or 4 (this would be about '74) my older sisters were supposed to be watching me, and then they came in the house and my mom asked "where's your brother?" and they said "we dunno."
Eventually my mother found me a block away, having pedaled my big wheel around a corner, across a side street, and into the grade school parking lot, where I was riding in circles.
The amount of time that passed between then (which scared my mother to death, obviously) and the age I started riding my bicycle around in the forest preserve bike trails on the north side of Chicago wasn't very much; I believe I was around 9 or 10 when I started doing that. No cell phone, no itinerary, just a time to be home and an admonishment to be careful. Oh, and no bike helmet, either.
By the time I was 13, I was riding my bicycle for 10-15 miles to the Chicago Botanical Gardens, or Golf Mill Mall, or other places, and my parents were groovy with that. Heck, I remember being 14 and caught in a rainstorm trying to ride my bike home in the downpour from my girlfriend's house in Niles, raining so bad I could see better without my glasses, and managing to get myself turned around and almost all the way back to her house by the time I figured it out.
Do I think I'd do this with my kids? Honestly, my answer is colored by two things that have changed since I was a kid: first, that I now live in Los Angeles and there's a dearth of mostly deserted wooded area here, and second, that even if nothing happened I'd be vilified as a parent as this woman was, and if something *did* happen I'd have a lot more to deal with than just whatever it was that happened.
Meanwhile, I have a fenced backyard that I can observe almost every square foot of from my living room windows, and still had to convince my wife that it would be safe to let them run around the yard without us physically out there, at age 2.5. Sigh. posted by davejay at 10:08 PM on April 11
One of the things I remember from my childhood was the abundance of kids running around doing whatever they pleased.
Yep. We ran all over hell and gone. Ding dong ditch. Hide and go seek. Pursey pursey. Throw dirt clods at cars. Burn down the Simpson Timber Forest.
Where are all the kids?
Sounds like snark. But for reals. Where did all the kids go? posted by notyou at 10:09 PM on April 11
I'm listening to the NPR story linked above. She seems like a very thoughtful and articulate woman who's thought this through and who is a careful parent. I think she's got a good point about how we assess risk, and about the problems from over-protecting kids.
Does it strike anyone as strange that fat kids are mercilessly mocked, but we don't let our kids go out and play on their own? Seems like a bit of a contradiction.
It seems to me that more important than stopping kids from leaving the house is teaching kids not to get into cars with strangers, to scream and kick if someone tries to make you. It's such a tiny risk that not letting kids out because of it is just too much. Also, New York City is probably a safer place to do this than most, because there are people everywhere. I would be more worried about my kid getting pulled into a car on a rural road where no one is around than in Manhattan. posted by Dasein at 10:13 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
A few years ago I was doing laundry at my apartment complex. I was by myself for a while, until a man and his daughter, about seven years old, came in with a load of clothes. They loaded it all into the washers, and got things started. Then the man left, leaving his daughter with the machines. The girl would mostly just goof around—she clearly had something going in her imagination, and sometimes she would sneak around the walls like a secret agent—with interruptions to ask me some blunt question, the kind of thing that passes for small talk when you're that age.
I think it was ten minutes or so after the man left that my laundry finished. I folded it all up and put it in my basket, and the man still hadn't returned. So I decided I'd stick around to keep an eye on the girl. It was a quiet Sunday morning; it's not that I expected anyone to come kidnap her or anything, but occasionally she would hang on a machine and, I didn't know, maybe one might tip over or something.
So I sat back down to listen to the radio, and she went on playing whatever game she had in mind, with the occasional question. After five more minutes or so of that, she chimed in, "You don't have to stay here."
Kids are smarter than adults give them credit for. Even I was starting to forget, and I'd just barely hit my twenties. posted by brett at 10:20 PM on April 11 [8 favorites]
This seems like a good place for a "back when I was a kid" response.
When I was in middle school and high school, I would roll a pillow into a sleeping bag, tie it onto the handlebars of my bicycle and yell, "I'm going campin', see you tomorrow!" Sometimes I would hear a response, other times I didn't, I would just pedal off into the woods anyway.
One day, some friends and I found a twotrack that we never saw before, so we pedaled and pedaled, up and down these steep Northern Michigan hills and found this awesome field. We made camp there and set everything up everything right, including a nice fire. Just before sundown, about a hundred Harleys came roaring up the twotrack, followed by a couple of trucks loaded down with kegs. It was the Flint chapter of The Tribe and they threw a howling party. We wandered over and they got us real fucked up. Good times, good times.
It's pretty funny, really. People getting worried about a kid on the subway when the real danger is letting your kids camp east of East Jesus 'cause there's gonna be a biker gang party eventually. And those dudes are going to get your kids fuuuuuucked uuuuuup. posted by NoMich at 10:20 PM on April 11 [31 favorites]
Kadin2048: I remember reading about this often ignored factor in regards to children. But I'm having serious trouble finding the statistics to back it up. Kids are much safer out there in the cities. I guess it's easier to demonize a mysterious stranger than it is to aknowledge that the vast majority of crimes against children are commited by people known to their parents, or by the parents themselves.
howrobotsaremade: You raise a very valid point. The phenomena of helicopter parenting results in kids that can't look after themselves. The job of parents is to turn anarchistic little monsters into self-suffient human beings. They aren't going to be self-sufficient if the parent keeps them locked in a padded box and does everything for them until they're in their goddamn thirties. I hope I can have the bollocks to let my own spawn live like your daughter when they come along. posted by Jilder at 10:23 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
We're having a good ol' time reminiscing about being a kid and doing fuck-all and there not being any consequences.
Somebody's gonna come along with a dark tale and screw it all up. posted by notyou at 10:25 PM on April 11
well, notyou, it won't be me. I can tell you all this - I don't *remember* when I started to take the bus and metro when I was a kid going to school 45 minutes away. I remember that I was taking a bus service when I was a little girl, then at some point I started taking public transport.
It was a non-issue.
I was taking a couple of buses, a metro and another bus to get to school. Was I a teen? Not yet a teen? Montreal was like that back then, and it is today as well.
Those folks in the article are over-reacting. posted by seawallrunner at 10:36 PM on April 11
Overprotected kids turn out really weird and unhappy, I shit you not. posted by Sticherbeast at 10:43 PM on April 11
I'm glad, seawallrunner. Cause I don't want to read any dark tales.
I really do wonder what happened to all the kids and I'm sad they aren't around.
Although, now that I am a property owner, and recalling all the damage my friends and I did to other people's property, and the pranks we played, and so on, I am also a little glad that the kids aren't around. posted by notyou at 10:44 PM on April 11
When that article came out with the English family and how great-grandad used to walk miles to fish, I started calculating my own childhood range. I worked out that it was one square mile, all contained within a box formed by four busy Tulsa streets. I spent a lot of summers on my bike riding from my house to the park a mile away.
I now live less than a block from a city park. I don't know if I'd let my daughter go down there alone before she's 12.
When I was 6 I rode my tricycle around the corner from my grandmother's house in McAlester. I don't think I'd let my daughter ride her trike on our streets... but then, we do live on a hill.
Either way, I don't know why I have these irrational fears where I had a much wider area to work with. Is it because she's a girl? Is it because I'm secretly afraid of the Pedophile Scourge? Is it because she's my only child (so far)? I don't know. I know I should be less fearful, but the world has proven itself so untrustworthy I'm not sure I can trust my own child. posted by dw at 10:45 PM on April 11
This is a fascinating thread. Let me, too, express my gratitude that I was allowed to wander at an early age. . . This would be in Des Moines, IA, circa 1980. . . the property line through our backyard ended in a small ravine, which could be followed all the way to the river, and the abandoned amusement park, where I once got tadpoles in my shoes while exploring the remnants of the tunnel of love. There were intriguing railroad tracks, too, to be followed. Another route looped around to the farthest border of our neighborhood park, where the odd, gnarly trees were; we called them "the boob trees"--excellent climbing. But I remember the shift that happened in our perception of safety. First was the disappearance of Johnny Gosch. A few years later, another paper boy, Eugene Martin, disappeared. Soon there were pictures of missing children on milk cartons--I wonder to what degree this alone was responsible for a paranoid shift in public consciousness. The same year that Johnny Gosch disappeared (1982), several people were killed when they took Tylenol that had been poisoned with cyanide. This led to a complete shift in the way all sorts of products were packaged. The little paper foil thing you have to peel of the mouth of a milk bottle?--didn't exist prior to 82. And does anyone else remember that suddenly one year we were afraid of getting poisoned halloween candy, or apples with razorblades in them? Does anyone else remember that there were neighborhood centers set up where you took your candy to be inspected by trained volunteers?
Still I wonder. . .Is human society growing more, or less, safe? All the modern monsters--child abductors, school shooters, serial killers--do they represent something new, or have we changed the way we relate to a violent potential that has always been inherent in human beings? posted by flotson at 10:50 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
I've seen the results of overprotecting parenting in four years as a university administrator. Working in the advising office for two years, I can't tell you how many times parents intervened in situations that their (legally adult) offspring couldn't or wouldn't or weren't allowed to handle on their own. I felt so sad the day a lovely student who'd worked for us casually told me sadly how she had to change her major because her father wouldn't let her take her chosen one. So many times parents would call up and demand to know if their child was passing their classes or whether or not they had registered for the right courses, when by law we couldn't even so much as confirm the enrollment of the student. Parents would march right into advising meetings with their silent child in tow... or sometimes even without the student's presence. If my mom had done such a thing I would have been furious, and insulted at the implication that I couldn't handle things on my own, and that I couldn't handle the consequences if I failed to. These are adults who are 18, 19, 20 years old. I hate this trend. Where does it stop? posted by loiseau at 10:52 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
It's a different and safer place than New York, but kids younger than 9 in Tokyo most definitely get around the city on their own before and after school. It all depends on the individual kid, of course. posted by zardoz at 11:01 PM on April 11
Still I wonder. . .Is human society growing more, or less, safe? All the modern monsters--child abductors, school shooters, serial killers--do they represent something new, or have we changed the way we relate to a violent potential that has always been inherent in human beings?
My parents wouldn't let me walk four blocks to a friends house in the middle of the day, or take my bike out of earshot. Then again, my mother was a psych nurse and routinely told stories of the pedophiles etc. she saw at work. Of course, I just ignored that and went wherever I wanted either walking or taking the subway. This was the early nineties, and I thought that getting driven everywhere was super wasteful.
The one time I was approached by some guy in a car, I was on my front lawn. posted by sgrass at 11:14 PM on April 11
While I was growing up (1988 onward), my parents never, ever let me wander around alone, but once I got to be about ten, if I was with a friend or two, they would routinely let us go down to the park and play in the creek by ourselves. Trouble was, there weren't that many kids my age that lived within walking distance. Almost always, these adventures were preceded by a phone call and a drive across town (and a reminder to be home or call by a certain time). Just kicking me out the door wasn't really an option.
I don't think this has hampered my ability to take care of myself in the slightest. I've been able to perform all the basic functions to take care of myself since I was in fifth or sixth grade. By that age, I could make pancakes and bacon, do laundry (I actually learned that one when I was seven or eight), wash dishes, and handle money, as well as read a map, lay a fire in the fireplace, walk home from school (currently no longer allowed by my old middle school), follow politics, and read Hermann Hess. Some people don't learn this sort of stuff until they get to college, or later. Sure, six year olds wandering around the woods are good, and I wish I could have done that, but there's nothing wrong with good parenting, either. posted by Commander Rachek at 11:14 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
I saw it said, not too long ago, that never before in history has any human population been so safe, and yet feared so much. posted by Malor at 11:16 PM on April 11 [12 favorites]
I grew up in a small but expanding subdivision, literally at the limits of the suburbs, right where it meets the country. I spent all my time trudging through the woods and fields of the as-yet-undeveloped sections, the unruined bits. One day, I might have been eight or nine, we built a fort in a pit dug for the basement of a new home, and had a sort of war with some other boys. Things got a little rough, and since it was a construction site there were all these pipes and boards and things, and, well, long story short, I got bashed over the head with a copper pipe, which gushed blood as head wounds do, and came home with blood streaming down my face and feeling dizzy.
It's about then that I started reading more, playing outside less. I know it's mostly just adutl nostalgia, but I miss it: getting poison ivy every summer, going further out each year as our boldness and endurance grew, pretending to be explorers and pirates and commandos. I don't really blame the kid who hit me: I threw the first punch, he just escalated it. I know it sounds all fake-poetical, but it really was boring bourgeois semi-detached ambition that killed the outdoors for us. It bulldozed the fields and forest and left us with nothing to do but squabble over a hole in the mud. posted by anotherpanacea at 11:20 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
Over-protecting kids is almost as worse as if some random harm happen to them, the only problem is that over-protection is much more frequent. posted by zouhair at 11:21 PM on April 11
I bet it is more than a "tinge", it's more like a 'tingle', " He'll be okay, worse if I look. posted by Mblue at 11:43 PM on April 11
Back when I was a kid, I was brushing off evangelical Jesus freaks without my parents around (shit, they could sniff out a group of kids on BMX bikes!--fucking predatory Xtians) . At least they were kinda crafty. Child abductors weren't even an issue. posted by sourwookie at 12:22 AM on April 12
And we learned to recognize that glazed (not)happy sheen in their vacuous eyes. Seriously, the bane of our neighborhood. We would have been happy to jump into a molesters panel van to escape that neighborhood menace. posted by sourwookie at 12:28 AM on April 12
When I was a kid, I always thought my parents were oppressively overprotective because my wandering range was confined to a mere mile during sunlight hours. Now I've got a neighbor that won't let her 5 yr old run on the sidewalk, and another that won't allow his middle schooler to play in his own front yard without adult supervision. I received quite the tongue lashing from one the day my son rode down the walk on a scooter without a helmet- I defended my choice to allow him to go headgear free by saying something along the lines of "We all fell down as kids and sometimes we got hurt, isn't that the way we learned to distinguish a scrape from a mortal wound?" I might as well had needles hanging off my forearms. Scrapes are NO LONGER ALLOWED. Nor is, in my neck of the woods, walking to school alone, non-organized sports, or tap water.
Jesus, having kids is Lovecraftian- you think you're living in a perfectly rational world until the day you wake up and find the flimsy veil of reason lifted forever. posted by maryh at 12:34 AM on April 12 [11 favorites]
Wow. This was interesting. Good mom.
Whatmore, I left home and went out on my own when I was 14. Sure, I stuck around the general area (until I was 19), but I was in school, working a full-time job, and holding down an apartment when I was 16.
And btw I had my share of approaches from freaks, and not the good kind. But that worked out because I was taught about that kind of stuff early on. "Ride? No thanks." posted by humannaire at 12:37 AM on April 12
[Incidentally, I am glad I missed that thread tkolar links to; my opinions on mortally anti-social individuals is pretty well established. Nonetheless, when it comes to individuals who have been proven to have harmed any child in a monsterous manner, my lack of empathy is conscientious.] posted by humannaire at 12:37 AM on April 12
Living in Mormon Country has some disadvantages but one good thing I've noticed about my neighborhood is how the kids get to live the way I did. My neighborhood is on the slopes of the Uintas, bordering National Forest land. On my long hikes with the dogs, if it's after school, I'll often see kids roaming here and there without adult supervision. Recently had a long conversation with my 11 yr old neighbor about her explorations in a local canyon and about the cave she and her friends found.
(Apparently the cave hooks into a system that goes for possibly miles with multiple exits. Modern graffiti on the walls is mixed with some much older stuff from the early settlers and possibly even older writing from the original tribes of the region. I really wanted to ask her to take me there and show me, since my own search for it was futile, but that request, in these paranoid times, would be incredibly inappropriate.) posted by pandaharma at 12:44 AM on April 12
I grew up in a small town which neighbored a major metropolitan area. Every day after school and all during the summer, my brother and I and our friends would hop on our Sting-Rays and ride all over town. Our parents had no idea where we were, or what we were doing--their only rule was, "Be home in time for dinner." They probably figured we couldn't go far, but in retrospect, we rode our bikes farther than most people drive in a day--we explored every inch of our town, and the neighboring town, and the town beyond that. We'd ride down to the beach or along the cliffs above it, where we'd get chased by dogs or find shopping carts and truck tires and roll them off into the abyss. We'd hike into the nearby state park, look for bats in the caves, tease rattlesnakes, catch frogs in the creek, explore the storm drains and the flood-control dams, and one summer we discovered a swing someone had made from a stolen fire hose. I don't think I've ever had as much fun as I did back then--our ages ranged from seven to twelve, and we had total freedom.
One summer evening as I pedaled home, a decrepit Oldsmobile screeched to a stop as I began to cross the street. An unkempt, bearded man leaned out the window and called to me, "Hey, where's Elm Street?" I pointed in its general direction, and then he said, "Come here for a sec." I instinctively knew something wasn't right, and then he suddenly opened his door and began to rush at me. I stamped on the pedal, bunny-hopped onto the sidewalk, and pedaled as fast as I could back to the town pharmacy, the nearest and most well-lit place that was open and full of people. I read comic books for an hour, and then raced home without stopping. I put my Schwinn in the garage and walked in just as my mom was placing a bowl of ravioli on the table. My father looked at me and said, "Well, look who's back! We were just about to put your picture on a milk carton." As I washed my hands, my mom asked, "Where have you been all this time?"
When I was 9 years old I had to get up at 4, walk 12 miles to school -- uphill, through the snow -- got home after walking back 12 miles -- again uphill -- before my stepfather beat me to sleep. posted by sour cream at 2:12 AM on April 12 [4 favorites]
Okay, I'll chime in.
My family lived til I was five in a city in Norway, where it was okay for mum to send me, aged four, a few blocks away to the supermarket (they had miniature trolleys for children! So much fun!). I was a happy little consumer; no harm done. When we returned to Britain (this was in the early nineties) the newspapers and TV were filled with the story of a recent child abduction and murder. Even living in the countryside it seems people were more freaked out by child safety than they had been in an urban area in Norway. I'd guess that fear was partly fed by the media.
My mother's child-rearing policy was one of benign neglect. My brothers and I spent a lot of time climbing trees, starting bonfires and falling over. Now my mum runs an outdoor nursery where she takes children (three to five years old) to the woods and they do pretty much those things, taking due care re:safety. She says filling in the risk-assessment paperwork is a bit of a palaver though.
So, the article? No, certainly not America's Worst Mom. posted by eponymouse at 2:39 AM on April 12
NYC 1976-1982, age 9-15, male.
For the first year, I think my folks accompanied me to school (about ten blocks uptown, in Greenwich Village). But we'd be around the neighbourhood alone for lunch, and to walk back home.
At 10 I changed schools (about 10 blocks downtown) and went alone there and back. In the afternoon we'd play unsupervised in Washington Square; I eventually made friends with the kooky Yippies. Was I ever nervous? Yeah, there were folks whispering offers of drugs, and there were groups that came across as threatening, but nothing of note ever happened.
At twelve I changed schools again, and took the subway from Astor Place to 86th street (and back) every day, alone, of course (sometimes meeting friends along the way).
There were incidents. Once I went sledding in Central Park alone, and I remember a man sitting down next to me in the subway, telling me he knew a great place for sledding in the park. He wasn't particularly weird, but I clearly registered this as creepy. Sure it got me nervous, but my decision to say a quick thanks but no thanks and jump out a station early before he could follow - well, it worked, and I remember feeling pretty cool about how I'd handled that.
Another time I got mugged for the little money I had. It was pretty frightening. What really stuck with me, though, was when a few days later I met the same kid who'd mugged me. I wasn't quick enough changing sidewalks for him to notice and come up to me. He had me scared pretty stiff - but then he said: "Don't worry, I'm not gonna mug you, I'm nice now. Do you have a dollar you can lend me?" This was so unexpected and surreal a turn of things, that I somehow seized the opportunity to affirm his newly assumed friendly identity - I said I was sorry, I didn't have any money on me, but did he want some gum? (I can't remember if he accepted or not - the main thing was, again, the feeling of having handled/solved the problem.)
The last incident I remember: I was 14, and decided, with the specific idea of challenging my own habits&prejudices, to walk home the length of Manhattan, from a friend's house on the Upper East Side back home on 8th street. It took ages, but it was pretty amazing to experience the city like this. I already saw myself on the home stretch, when, sure enough, around 21st street a guy comes up from behind, puts a knife to my throat and takes me around the corner. I was scared shitless, and fuming about my idiotic decision. He told me to show him what I had on me, which wasn't a lot. Pretty quickly he said to give him my watch, which I did. and then told me to fuck off, and not dare turn around, which I made sure I didn't. I got home pretty out of breath, and angry. At the same time, I felt lucky. And looking back on it now, the experience of that day was well worth losing my watch over.
We have two young boys, and I see it as my/our mission to ensure the rampant paranoia (and I live in Italy, where unfortunately it's as common and spreading as it seems in the U.S. and the U.K.) isn't allowed to encroach on the liberty and acquisition of the sense of capability I had had the permission to develop. Kudos to America's Worst Mom. posted by progosk at 2:45 AM on April 12 [1 favorite]
Hey all - interesting topic. Just a follow-on from Kadin2048's comment above (which I enjoyed reading, and agree with).
Let's say the incidence of the "really weird stuff" (i.e. child abduction/rape/murder) has remained constant over time. Wouldn't the increasing propensity of parents to oversupervise their kids result in increased risk to the fewer remaining free range kids of being victims of this sort of crime? And if this is the case, wouldn't there be a point where it's actually a rational decision (Nash-stylee) to be an oversupervising parent, despite our intrinsic preference to let them roam where they will? And, conversely, that letting your kids roam free is indeed bad parenting (because of the effect of the choices of other parents)? posted by laumry at 3:07 AM on April 12
I grew up in NYC and started taking myself the 16 blocks to school at around 9. In one direction, I would walk; in the other direction, I'd take the 104 bus. This was in 1981, the same year Adam Walsh was abducted, and Adam Walsh was very much on my mother's mind. Unknown to me, she called my school from her office every day to check that I had indeed arrived.
I had very clear instructions, and I followed them. I was to say hello to all of the doormen on the way; I was to sit next to a woman on the bus on the way home whenever possible; I was to keep a dime in my penny loafer with which to call home should I need to; I was not to cross the intersection at 96th street without other pedestrians, because while I knew how to cross a street, New Jersey drivers coming off the Bridge didn't know how to drive. If I got into trouble, I was to yell FIRE at the top of my lungs.
Here is the thing. While I encountered the occasional creep on the mean streets of the big city, nothing ever happened except an afternoon drunk showing me his penis, which I found scary because it was unexpected but not threatening because he was at least 6 feet away. Here is the other thing: that year, I actually did encounter a pedophile, who assaulted me. At my very expensive, vetted and background checked summer camp for the children of the well off.
NYC is much, much safer than it was when I was 9. Subways have other people. NYC streets have other people. While my views are going to be filtered through my own experiences, I have to say that the jam-packed city seems way safer for kids than isolated rural environments. Grass still makes me nervous. posted by DarlingBri at 3:11 AM on April 12 [2 favorites]
This thread is a bit self-selecting, in some ways. Of course we're not hearing from anyone who had benignly neglectful parents but perhaps regret that fact now ...
Or rather, would regret it if they could, because they're all HORRIBLY DEAD!!!!!
Just kidding. I walked and biked all over the place as a kid. No idea why everyone is so uptight about it these days. posted by kyrademon at 4:38 AM on April 12 [3 favorites]
laumry: That is a fascinating hypothesis, actually. I hate to say it, but you might have a point. I lack the background in social science to offer any proof for your hypothesis, though. I'd love to read a discussion on it. posted by Joey Michaels at 4:43 AM on April 12
I think it's incredibly responsible of the parent to let her 9-year-old take the subway home. As a proof of concept, if nothing else. Let's say that someday in the next year or two there's a family crisis and no one can pick the kid up from school - panicky and in the midst of a crisis is NOT the time you want to have to figure out the subway system for the first time. posted by Jeanne at 4:49 AM on April 12 [4 favorites]
One more story from an earlier era....
Growing up in the 50's in in Minneapolis I had a father who was a train buff and an eccentric. At the time there were several trains that went between the Minneapolis and St.Paul train stations. Not subways but trains, for which you needed a ticket. At the age of eight, my father bought a round trip ticket for me to take the train by myself to St. Paul, in the evening, to see the model train exhibit there and return back to Minneapolis and catch the public bus home.
The plan probably would have worked except for the fact that when I got to St. Paul I lost my return ticket. I remember crying and the police and the train conductor putting me on the train back to Minneapolis where i took the bus home. Child abuse?? Not in the fifties, the term didn't exist.
As I write this I am reminded how quick most parents are to trust the airlines with their unaccompanied minor children. Weird things can happen on planes too. Why can't we trust our children to make good decisions. posted by Xurando at 4:53 AM on April 12
I agree with DarlingBri-- places where there are people always seem much safer to me than rural grassy quiet areas. I think it would be really difficult for a kid to get in trouble in the middle of the day in Manhattan, especially if he or she knows what to do if anyone is creepy or whatever. As she experienced, which is the story I've heard from a lot of friends, unfortunately, it's usually a teacher or counselor who successfully molests children. (I'm sorry that happened to you, DarlingBri.)
Until I was in the 6th grade my family lived in a cul-de-sac off a fairly major road in Poughkeepsie. There were a lot of kids in the neighborhood of various ages and a bunch of woods, and we pretty much wandered around, making forts, and playing, for hours. The only creepy thing that ever happened to me was with one of the older boys in the neighborhood. I was the only girl there, and quite the tomboy; I always wore overalls or jeans, never dresses. One day we were playing and he took me aside and said, "Are you really a girl? You're not really a girl." And I got all indignant and said of course I was. He got a really weird expression on his face and said, "why don't you prove it. Show me." I was utterly weirded out-- I knew there was something wrong-- and I kind of backed away and told him no. I never told my parents about it but I always avoided that boy after that.
I also got in a bike accident when I tried to ride around the block by myself prior to being taught how to use the brakes. I got a wicked lump on my head but I was fine.
I loved the freedom I had as a kid. We were all minimally supervised but we were fine.
I think this mom is smart to teach her son independence.
BTW whoever said above that her parents told her to sit next to a woman on the train or bus-- I got exactly the same advice! I wonder if that was commonly accepted as the rule for kids on public transport. posted by miss tea at 5:17 AM on April 12 [1 favorite]
It might still be actually, if I'm alone on a bus or train, smaller children who travel alone (6-9 years old) choose to sit next to me. The first time I noticed I realized that I'd quite suddenly reached that "mom look". posted by dabitch at 5:25 AM on April 12
When I was a kid I used to ride my bike for literally miles and miles, maybe 30 or 40 miles in a day, on the small (and in some cases, not so small) roads between the towns and villages of north Hertfordshire and south Bedfordshire.
Independent of the threat of weirdos, the thing that would prevent me from letting my kids ride their bikes the same way today is that there is infinitely more traffic today, and, even worse, in the small towns, so many more cars parked along the sides of the road that the traffic that uses them is squished into a very narrow space. posted by kcds at 5:58 AM on April 12
I totally forgot about my little kid in NYC story until now but Xurando's story jogged my memory. When we were little my sister and I were put on the bus from time to time to go visit friends or relatives who lived a few hours away. Often this just meant taking a Greyhound to Boston or Western MA but sometimes I'd take the bus to Port Authority where my grandmother would pick me up. I remember two OMG-in-hindsight stories
1. When I went to Boston once I got off at the wrong Boston stop. There were a few stops that were technically labelled Boston and I think I maybe got off one too early. I wandered around the bus station and marvelled at the pay-televisions and just sort of stood there until the family friends I was coming to stay with figured out what had happened and came to fetch me. I don't think I even knew how to use a pay phone at that point. I told my friend's Dad that I'd sat next to some nice guy on the bus (probably a hippie of some stripe) who had given me some gum. I got a shocked expression and a "don't take candy from strangers" lecture.
2. One time my grandmother was late to come get me at Port Authority. She was usually there when I got off the bus but this time she just wasn't. I wandered around, probably nine or ten (so 1978 or so?) with a little flowered suitcase, looking a little lost. I distincly remember a few men coming up to me and asking if I needed a place to stay. I told them no. At some point my grandmother showed up.
I turned out okay. posted by jessamyn at 6:17 AM on April 12
Yeah, yeah, yeah, back in the day.
Vote - how many actual parents of 9 year old kids here would really let them not only ride the subway in NYC but do it sans cell phone and without specific directions? posted by caddis at 6:35 AM on April 12
I think an in-depth Nash style analysis of the risks to the remaining "free range" kids should also take into account a smarter predator (and predators in nature tend to be comparably smart). A smarter predator would avoid a free-range child, who probably has some common sense, and would instead select a docile, easily-manipulated child who could be terrorized into keeping secrets.
I believe in unconscious conspiracies - linked actions from masses of people who never quite know why they might do something or maintain a certain preference, if that question ever arises to the forefronts of their minds.
And I believe we are raising the next generation of very tractable employees/citizens - afraid of risk of any sort, perfectly willing to hand over decision-making to whatever parent substitute is handy (boss or law enforcement official), anxiously eager to trade anything for a false sense of security, unable to judge probability levels and cumulative risk for themselves, without even the sense to be angry at what they have lost.
It's perfect, really. The company lawyers get a reduced risk profile. Governments have citizens who will hysterically vote for almost any security measure so long as a boogeyman is waved nearby. Bosses have employees who will stay in any awful job because they're too scared to search around. The various media outlets has a rapt populace who will stay indoors because anything but "nesting" is scary, and enough eyeballs to make bank on commercials for things you can enjoy in the safety of our own homes. Food delivery services to keep us fat in our nests and supermodels to keep us ashamed of it. There is a gym in the bottom of the apartment complex, but there's that sketchy guy who seems to be in there a lot ...
I don't think that a bunch of old guys sat around in some kind of dark room filled with cigarette smoke and secrets, deciding, "Hey, if we keep this new generation wetting themselves with terror, we'll own them!" However, the decision-making has been very convenient for everyone involved, somewhere between the more litigious members of society and a journalistic practice which, when the latest celebrity nosedive has burned out, will handily turn to anything "panickable." When the big West Nile scare was on, I pointed out that more people had died the previous year from St. Louis encaphalitis, also mosquito-borne, and where was the fuss about that?
dasein:I would be more worried about my kid getting pulled into a car on a rural road where no one is around than in Manhattan.
A good point, but far from a guarantee. With more people apt to mind their business and turn a blind eye to things, a person with a kicking child is usually dismissed as a parent with a tantruming kid. Think of the Kitty Genovese phenomena that, interestingly enough, happened in the 5 boroughs. posted by dr_dank at 6:50 AM on April 12
I used to go up to the neighbor's dairy farm and help call the cows in for milking. Sometimes I'd be in the barn, clinging to the ladder when the cows came rushing by. I also rode my bike by myself to the corners store for penny candy. It was about a mile, maybe more. My brothers and sister and I went out in the woods sledding and were gone for hours at a time.
When we lived in the Chicago area, my brother and I would go far and wide, biking and walking around Glenview and Roselle. As I recall, there was a tennis court near Medinah that we frequented and it was pretty far from home.
In central Maine, we lived on a lake. One time it snowed so much that we couldn't get the car out of the driveway (he could drive by then). We walked across the frozen lake, which had an 80-foot channel running through it.
My biggest concern for my kids was traffic. We lived on the other side of a busy 4-lane road, so they had to walk the back streets up to the light and use the crossing guard. My daughter's biggest problem in Jr. High was not adults, it was other girls who used to pick on each other at the bus stop.
One time, I asked my son what he would do if a man tried to kidnap him or worse. "I'd kick him in the nuts!" he replied. I think he was about 10. Now he's 5'10" and I highly doubt anyone would try it. He just took a trip to visit relatives in Florida on his own (age 15) and made his own connection in Newark, which airport still freaks the bejesus out of me. posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 6:53 AM on April 12
My anecdote is from the late 70's. I'd have been around 9 or 10. We were in the street playing the classic kids-on-bikes game with a couple of bricks and a bit of plywood to make a ramp, challenging each other to jump higher. The street we lived on was otherwise empty when my friend managed to land badly, making a bloody mess of his face. Within moments, as if from nowhere, the street seemed filled with adults, within a few minutes friend and his mom were away in the ambulance. There must have been plenty of folks keeping an eye on us. Nowadays I live on a quiet residential street and the local kids roll past our front window on their bikes and skateboards and my wife and I find ourselves doing the same thing - glancing out to check on things, and we don't even have any kids of our own. The difference now is that they're all kitted out in helmets and pads, and I hear parents telling their kids not to go further than the end of the street. posted by normy at 7:18 AM on April 12 [1 favorite]
I grew up in San Bernardino, CA in the late eighties/early nineties, and from the age of 9 would traipse all over my neighborhood unattended, usually with my bike. At 10 my friend and I would bike to nearby Redlands to catch a movie, or to the local ball park to watch minor league games. I was left alone during the summers and would walk all over, stopping for pizza or climbing a tree or making my way to the little league field just to see what was going on.
I had a guy try to "give me a ride" outside an elementary school near my house - I refused, he insisted, then I ran inside the school hoping to find someone, but it was empty. So I waited for about 20 minutes, cut across the field, hopped the fence and took the back way home. Once I encountered a drunk driver hitting speeds of 50 - 60 mph near that same school - so I went home and called the police. The next night, my mother and I were driving to Target and I saw the same guy splayed against the hood of his car, the sherriffs handcuffing him.
I was bussed all over the county for school, and briefly considered attending one school for ROTC so I could get a scholarship, but changed my mind when I realized I'd have to take a public bus into one of the worst gang neighborhoods I knew of, then walk by myself for six blocks to get back and forth every day. I ended up going to the high school nearest my house, so I could ride my bike. What strikes me about that now is that my parents weren't involved in this decision at all - I didn't even discuss it with them. I was the one who monitored my *own* safety, as I'd been taught. I was expected to do that, and it never seemed odd.
A few months before we moved out of San Bernardino and into the mountains (I was 14), I had a gun pulled on me by a group of six boys. I hit the deck, and the next thing I knew three police cars and one truant officer pulled up - apparently they'd been tailing the boys. I waited a second to see if they'd want to speak to me, then I hightailed it home. I never told my mom.
Now, I cringe when we stop for gas in the same neighborhood, but by all statistics it's only gotten safer. My 5 yr. old goddaughter has never played by herself outside - I was 3 when I first started roaming the breadth of the apartment complex I grew up in. I got to know a lot of my neighbors. posted by annathea at 7:34 AM on April 12 [1 favorite]
I don't have kids. A few years ago I was having a conversation with a woman at a dinner party who had a couple of kids of school age. We were discussing the then-recent Cecilia Zhang murder (which was still unsolved at that point) and I said that while it was undoubtably tragic, it was a shame that parents let sensational cases like that influence their behaviour because violent crime against kids has been dropping for a long time, statistically your kids have a much higher chance of being abused/assaulted by someone they know than a random stranger, etc., etc., etc. She looked at me like I had a third eye and said "You don't have children! You don't understand!". And I certainly didn't have anything I could say in response to that. It's one thing to know, rationally, that your kids are probably going to be just fine if you let them take the subway/go to the playground by themselves, and another thing altogether to be able to let go of your fear and let them do it. posted by The Card Cheat at 7:34 AM on April 12
It's kind of heartwarming to know that I've been in a similar situation as a child: though I lived in one of those leafy out-of-the-middle-of-town suburbs in the UK, I took a train every day from the age of 8 to 14 two towns over to a big swanky private school, which involved a lot of street-pounding through the middle of our village in the dark and a lot of waiting at stations.
And this was back in the 1980s when trains didn't have windowless doors that completely closed on automatic, but instead had hatch-like handles and windows you could pull down and stick your head out of to enjoy the breeze or, if you believed the schoolboy myths, you could lean out juuust thaaat faaaar and almost get decapitated, and of course everyone at the time thought that was awesome.
At the same time it's kind of saddening to realise that I'm not sure I'd trust my town now to be as kind to my children, the onset of chavscum at about 5/6pm on Fridays and Saturdays being mostly to blame for that. Though it's no crime on par with abduction or murder or [insert paranoid subway crime here], getting punched in the face by a random stranger is a) far more likely recently and b) still not something I'd want happening to my kid. posted by stelas at 7:40 AM on April 12
Add my voice to the chorus of people who have great memories of being allowed to roam free as a kid. I grew up in a mid-sized (about 70,000) town and once I reached the age of 7 or 8 I was allowed to ride my bike pretty much anywhere I wanted, provided I was back in time for dinner/bedtime. My folks liked to have a general idea of who I was with and where I was going, but I certainly didn't have to check in with them throughout the day.
That said, when I was really young (3 or thereabouts) I once rode my big wheel downtown (which was maybe a five minute walk away). At that point in time I wasn't supposed leave the street we lived on, so when my mom came out onto the front porch and couldn't see me, she panicked and called the cops. They picked me up in a cruiser a few blocks away and gave me a ride home. I don't really remember the experience, but my mom tells me that riding in the back of the cop car was pretty much the thrill of my young life. posted by The Card Cheat at 8:05 AM on April 12
I grew up in Milwaukee. My grandma taught my sister and I what buses to take where: 21 will take you to the Mall in Wauwatosa; the 31 will take you downtown. Here's how transfers work! I was probably 10. "Like learning to drive but better" sums it up really well: I had the run of the city and I could read at the same time.
My BMX-based radius was probably 3 miles, which, as a kid on a dirt bike, felt like crazy-ass ultra-distance.
I feel very sorry for kids and parents these days. posted by everichon at 8:08 AM on April 12
> My BMX-based radius was probably 3 miles, which, as a kid on a dirt bike, felt like crazy-ass ultra-distance.
Let me just add that the feeling of freedom and mobility I gained when I earned my driver's license was nothing compared to the sheer exhilaration of tooling around town on a two-wheel bike as a little kid. The difference? You couldn't drive your car through the woods/over ramps/into the lake, for one thing. Nor could you get together with your friends and pretend to be WWII fighter pilots, using crab apples that you'd throw at each other as "ammo". posted by The Card Cheat at 8:14 AM on April 12 [2 favorites]
I don't have kids, but I'm born and raised in NYC.
I don't think this is a great idea, though. Not because the subways are dangerous, because they really aren't. And not because the subways are overrun with pedophiles, because my sense is they aren't (although, obviously, I'm a tad outside of their demographic of interest, so I could be way off on that).
The thing about the subway is it's great as long as it's running regularly. But trains go out of service. Local trains suddenly go express. Lines go down. Could a 9-year-old figure out how to get from one place to another if no trains were running? Because if you've never seen a train station without any trains running, it's madness. People everywhere. People pushing their way onto buses. People grabbing cabs. It makes me feel scared and alone. I can't imagine what a 9-year-old would do. Obviously, Skenazy is banking on the kindness of strangers, and I think most New Yorkers are more than willing to help a kid, unless they have their own way home to worry about.
Then, it's every person for themself.
I would be nervous having a 9-year-old taking the train alone. It's probably fine 90-95 times out of 100 (less so on weekends, when there's often line changes for construction), but that 5-10 times it's not fine is what I'd be thinking about. posted by puckupdate at 8:14 AM on April 12 [1 favorite]
I was always within three blocks of home (mostly we explored in the woods around the back end of the housing development) up until I was 11, when we moved from our insular, everybody-knew-everybody semi-rural suburb on Cape Breton Island to a suburb of Dartmouth (which is itself kind of a suburb of the capital city of Halifax) where they have public transit. Suddenly I could take the bus almost anywhere I wanted to go. I don't remember discussing it with my parents, but I remember I was expected to only take the bus during daylight hours - if it was dark out, Mom or Dad would come get me.
I had a guy follow me off the bus and grab my ass (I turned and screamed at him to let me go and a guy watering his lawn turned and watched us very closely and I'm sure would intervened if the guy had grabbed me again - he left me alone). More than once, I had a person who was probably mentally ill sit behind me and stroke my hair until I told him to stop (my bus route went past a mental hospital). I had a variety of men sit too close to me and lean up against me as though they didn't have enough room on their seat when they totally did, and I learned to be pretty assertive with my elbows. As somebody mentioned up thread, I sat next to women wherever possible, and I learned how to go into the overdrive of screaming non-compliance which makes you no longer a palatable victim. I think that learning to trust my own instincts on when a situation is not right was really important.
But I was 12, not 9. I'm not sure I would have been ready for that at 9. Probably some kids are, though. I'm certainly not willing to say this woman is wrong. posted by joannemerriam at 8:29 AM on April 12
I have suffered the negative consequences of overprotectivness by parents and I still wouldn't let my kids do half the things you guys were allowed to do. I mean, really, letting your five year old leave the yard to go 3 houses down to her friend's yard without me hovering over her?! Wow, no. posted by liquorice at 8:31 AM on April 12
BTW whoever said above that her parents told her to sit next to a woman on the train or bus-- I got exactly the same advice! I wonder if that was commonly accepted as the rule for kids on public transport.
I've told my daughter a similar thing. If I lose her, I said to look for someone with a uniform like a police officer or someone who works there, or a mom or a dad with kids, or if she can't find either of those, a woman.
At the same time, advising her to find a woman (failing choices one or two) seems a little sexist and OMGPedophiles!. But those were our rules when I was growing up and they kept us out of trouble. I tend to raise my daughter the same way I was, minus all the crazy stuff my parents also did.
So now we have a lot of those same rules. Honestly, I think having them just makes me feel better. But we talk a lot and I'm confident that if something creepy happened, she would know what to do.
I was once walking with my daughter somewhere and a guy pulled up in a car along side us and asked if we wanted a ride. I said no, the guy kept following us and talking. Then I yelled, "I said no! Leave us alone!" and the guy drove off. I think seeing how I handled that and then talking about it (instead of going into panic mode) will help her if she ever gets into a situation like that. It gave me a chance to talk about not getting into the car with someone she doesn't know, and I could explain that if someone was bothering her, she needed to make a lot of noise to draw attention and then go to a safe place.
Someone upthread asked how many people here would really let their 9 year old take the subway alone. We don't live in a big city and there is no subway. This scenario doesn't really apply in my case because we live in a medium sized town, so there's just the bus and I don't see that as being something too dangerous for a 9 year old to negotiate. If I had raised my child in a city where we were already familiar with the subway, I don't see how it would be that terrible of a thing to try, since I'm sure this kid has been riding it his whole life. But no, I wouldn't travel to NY, never having taken a subway and then let my child of that age go by herself without understanding how it works. I'm all about common sense.
This thread is timely. I have often felt like the "bad" parent for letting my daughter spread her wings a little and it's nice to see that other people want to get back to that a little more. Even my ex-husband is extremely overprotective. I've had more than my fair share of acquaintances and neighbors chastise me for letting my child ride down to the corner on her big wheel or take something next door to the neighbor's or well... a lot of things that I let her do. I'm not stupid and negligent, but you would think I am sometimes for all of the disapproval I get in real life. Kind of nice to have at least part of the internets on my side for once. posted by howrobotsaremade at 8:42 AM on April 12 [1 favorite]
Vote - how many actual parents of 9 year old kids here would really let them not only ride the subway in NYC but do it sans cell phone and without specific directions?
One thing we are not discussing here is the peer pressure between parents re being watchful over their kids. I'm not a parent (and I suspect many of us respondents in this thread are not, either), so I don't know the full brunt of this. When I listen to folks who are parents discuss their kids in the lunchroom or whatnot, I hear the 'safety' message now and again.
The author of the article is reasonable to let her kid experience the subway at 9. But imagine her peer circle for a moment. Do other mothers in her social circle hold the same views? I hope so. Or is she distancing herself from her peers, and risking ridicule/isolation there (never mind the readers of the article)
I wonder whether this over-protectiveness is indicative of the loosening of the social net overall, and the tightening of one's peer value strictures as a result. People trust the 'general society' less, and put more emphasis on 'what will my neighbors/friends think' than our parents did, a generation ago? Just throwing this out there. posted by seawallrunner at 8:43 AM on April 12
I think a lot about this impending struggle. I think, not infrequently, "thank God he's only three" - Opinion on letting him ride mass transit solo is mercifully pretty much 100%, masking my (at least partially inherited, once bitterly resented in my own parents) overprotective tendencies.
And I come with my own set of standard issue anecdotes, despite my parents being somewhat uptight, I too pedaled my bike over miles of gravel roads in rural Minnesota back roads, and trekked all over deserted nature alone, before I was 10. With a knife in my pocket. But I know I'm going to be fighting my own fear and paranoia when the time come for my child.
I'm glad this conversation is occurring, because I think we have driven ourself mental as a culture dwelling on the most horrifying outlier events in existence (and ignoring facts such as the "routine" accidents that outstrip things like homicide by an order of magnitude, with car accidents leading over all). Although I have to say the author lost some of my sympathy when she compared her plight as a contrarian on child rearing norms to that of Soviet dissidents at the height of the cold war... posted by nanojath at 8:59 AM on April 12
I have suffered the negative consequences of overprotectivness by parents and I still wouldn't let my kids do half the things you guys were allowed to do. I mean, really, letting your five year old leave the yard to go 3 houses down to her friend's yard without me hovering over her?! Wow, no.
I can see that yard from my window. I can hear and see the kids yelling and playing and running around. Her friend has a couple older siblings that are usually outside, too. I know the parents who live in this house and we share the same rule about not letting the kids play out in the street. They keep an eye out and so do I. In my mind, this is not really a big deal. They run back and forth between the yards and up and down the sidewalk. They might come play in my backyard or the other little girl's. My daughter is actually allowed to go the length of the block without me, but won't go down to the other corner because those people have a scary barking dog in their fence. I think it's a pretty good deal, since we're square in the middle of our block and I can see down to both ends. That really is not very far. She's not allowed to cross over without me watching yet, but will probably be allowed to do that fairly soon since she's great about looking both ways.
Half the time I'm standing around yakking to that neighbor or her husband or someone else out in the yard or doing something outside anyway. But yes, I allow my daughter out of the fenced back yard and to play in front of the house. I want her world to be filled with neighbors and friends and dogs and bossy older siblings sometimes, and bikes and adventures, and the games that kids invent when adults aren't calling the shots. Like mine was when I was that age. I don't feel that this is very risky or dangerous at all.
It makes our neighbors into people, actual human beings. Not strangers to be feared. There are only two houses on our block on the other side of the street where we haven't at least spoken to the neighbors once or twice. Most of them, we know their names. We've trick or treated at their houses, picked up their papers when they're out of town, or brought back their mail that we got by mistake.
But I get this reaction all.the.time. I'm not trying to pick on you in particular, liquorice. You just happened to say something that a lot of people have said to me. But in my opinion it's a rather extreme position that's driven by fear. Had I said that I let my 5 year old go 6 blocks over by herself, crossing several streets, I could understand this. However, in my neighborhood, the lot size for most houses is small and so that means she's maybe 120 feet away from me at any given moment. She's an arm's length away and if you think of it that way, it doesn't seem so scary, does it?
My daughter is the most precious thing in the world to me and the thought of anything happening to her makes my blood run cold. Honestly. But keeping her at my side all the time doesn't make her her any safer than letting her learn to handle herself- first in a controlled environment and then by letting her out a little at a time as she gets more responsible. posted by howrobotsaremade at 9:24 AM on April 12 [3 favorites]
When I was a kid, I flew by myself from California to Russia every single summer. I usually had a 8 hour layover in Helsinki. The first two times, the stewardess led me to the "kids' room" which was a large, carpeted room with a dozen chairs, some blocks (I was ten, so I rolled my eyes at the blocks), some random kids who didn't speak English or Russian, and weird foreign news on a little TV. I have never been more bored. There was no way to sleep, there was nothing to do, read, or play with. The third year, I told the stewardess that I wasn't going, and she just walked away. I wandered around the airport and got a hot chocolate (which made me feel very adult). It was an incredible feeling to be my own boss. posted by prefpara at 9:26 AM on April 12
Hm. I live in NYC and don't know if I'd let a nine-year-old ride the train alone. Depends on the kid, I'd say. I do know that when I see kids who look like they're alone on the train, I keep an eye on them, and wonder where their parents might be
As background, I grew up in a rural/suburban area with lots of woods. We ran around unsupervised all the time, and I'm still alive, still have all my limbs, etc.
I don't think people are more or less evil than they were a couple generations ago. I reckon there's always been a degree of danger for isolated kids.
My dad told me a story about his cousin who was kidnapped by the gypsies, though. There was a gypsy caravan parked near town, the kid was on the way home from school, never made it home, and the gypsies left that night. From the way dad told the story, it happened in the late 1930s/early 1940s. At the time, I thought this was pretty AWESOME, and wondered where on earth my first cousin, once removed, might be. I was less aware of what the parents might have felt. posted by dubold at 9:41 AM on April 12
Vote - how many actual parents of 9 year old kids here
It would depend on the kid's personality. Some are ready for this at 9, some aren't and some are a little too ready for it. It comes down to knowing your kid, recognizing their weak spots and then teaching them how to overcome that. posted by Brandon Blatcher at
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That said, I started taking the subway in Toronto to get to school each day when I was 12. My mom came with me the first day to make sure I was alright, and then I was on my own. I'm still here!
posted by chrominance at 7:24 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]