The Open Source Boob Project

April 23, 2008 5:25 AM

The Open Source Boob Project. At Penguicon, we had buttons to give away. There were two small buttons, one for each camp: A green button that said, "YES, you may" and a red button that said "NO, you may not." And anyone who had those buttons on, whether you knew them or not, was someone you could approach and ask: "Excuse me, but may I touch your breasts?" Once taken online, the grand flurry of reactions have been decidedly mixed.

The main link is awkward to read; it starts with a bunch of caveats and explanations. The original post comes after all the updates and edits. And there are a lot (and I mean a lot of comments, many of them very thoughtful and interesting, some from people who were there, many from those who weren't.

posted by Hildegarde (247 comments total)

I am astonished that someone over the age of 11 would conceive of this. Seems like the debate has already been beaten into the ground though.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 5:33 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Wait, what's "Open Source" about this? Were the breasts freely modifiable and redistibutable? Will we soon be seeing the Creative Commons Boob Project? What the hell, people? What the hell?!
posted by Spatch at 5:36 AM on April 23 [12 favorites]

Unsurprising given the context of the "project": i.e., an omphalos of hypernerdery. Also unsurprising that the guy who came up with this sports an awful little beard. We should really be putting these people in camps.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 5:39 AM on April 23 [15 favorites]

As an experiment: Neat. As a "real" event: Ick.

But everyone is free to choose to attend and beyond that what pin to wear AND they apparently have a last refusal even beyond that. I guess I don't see what there is to have 1300 comments about.
posted by DU at 5:39 AM on April 23

You do know we have a sexist flag now, right?
posted by mattbucher at 5:40 AM on April 23

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?"

Oh, jesus.
posted by liquorice at 5:42 AM on April 23 [20 favorites]

Apparently I didn't read far enough.
posted by DU at 5:48 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Wait until you see the results of the Open Source Cockpunching Project.
posted by longbaugh at 5:56 AM on April 23 [75 favorites]

I'm actually working on a similar scheme, "the Open Source Child-Hugging project". Parents are encouraged to wear one of our freely distributed T-shirts - one kind reads: "Yes, Please Hug My Child!" and I'm working on getting the other kind printed just as soon as I get back out of solitary and that goddamn son-of-a-bitch Governor lets me back in the prison workshop. And then you'll all pay for how you've treated me, you hear me? YOU'LL ALL PAY.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 5:56 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

I'm working on a similar project, tentatively entitled "The Open Source Clotheslining Skateboarders as they pass me on the Sidewalk" project.
posted by selfnoise at 5:57 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]

You know what's worse? Livejournal
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 6:05 AM on April 23 [13 favorites]

The possibilities are endless.

The Open Source Spontaneous Trepanation Project
The Creative Commons Random Walrus Evisceration Jaunt
Glue 2.0 : Sticking Shit To Your Friends And Their Shit For Shits And Giggles Under The LGPL

and so on
posted by 5MeoCMP at 6:08 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]

This makes me tired. Things like this always make me tired. At the rate that tiring puerile shit keeps showing up, it's a miracle I'm not Rip Van Fucking Winkle by now.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:11 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]

Gross skeezebag at an anime convention finds an excuse to grope women, gets called a skeezebag, attempts to rationalize away skeezebaggery. LJ-Drama ensues.

Current Mood: Bored
Current Music: Journey - Don't Stop Believin'
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 6:15 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]

"My pokeys, let me show you them."
posted by briank at 6:17 AM on April 23

Wait, what's "Open Source" about this? Were the breasts freely modifiable and redistibutable?

Hmm, it's almost as if someone who would conceive of this brilliant master plan thought of breasts (and thereby the women attached) ass some sort of object to be posessed. Surely that couldn't be the case.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:17 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]

...thought of breasts ass...

as, damnit, AS. That is one whopper of a Freudian slip there eh?
posted by Pollomacho at 6:18 AM on April 23

Your nuts, may I kick them?
posted by anthill at 6:19 AM on April 23

Women will often let you touch them in all sorts of interesting ways if you're not a repulsive dink who has to invent some complicated scheme of douchebaggery just to get his paws on some sacred, sacred boobies for a few seconds. True story.
posted by shadow vector at 6:21 AM on April 23 [39 favorites]

You know, all of these people are very nice people. They are the kind of people who feel lonely and alienated because they're 'weird' and they end up forming clubs where everyone is nice and accepting to each other and all enjoy super-nerdy pursuits.

But at the same time it's hard not to find these people annoying. I mean, they're awkward for a reason. And now, thanks to the internet, rather then conforming they are finding other awkward people to hang around with and be awkward with. I'm sure they are happier, and I don't have anything against 'em. But man.

I was reading some feminist blogs a while ago and they were all going on about "Nice Guys", by which they mean guys who become good friends with women and then get all moody that they won't sleep with them, because they consider themselves nice guys. This guy comes across like the archetypal "Nice Guy" in that sense. What he wants is to grope women, which most men would like to do, but he wraps it up in feminist terminology and blathers on about making women feel safe, etc.

Also, he says this could be a "fun and sexual thing" if done with the right mindset. Well no, it wouldn't be fun and sexual it would just be kind of pathetic. Touching a girls boobs isn't that exciting, I mean compared to what you could be doing. It's the kind of thing that would be thought up by someone so deprived of sexual contact that touching breasts is like a rare treat.
posted by delmoi at 6:28 AM on April 23 [43 favorites]

why are we even talking about this.... ?

delmoi summed it up nicely, can this just go away now?
posted by HuronBob at 6:38 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

In my day we used the touch command, and we were glad to have it!

nicolas léonard sadi carnot,
I think you should register the domain name omphalosofhypernerdery.org as soon as possible.
posted by lukemeister at 6:39 AM on April 23

May I touch your soul with some Rod McKuen poetry? Ewww.
posted by kozad at 6:45 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Now I know how to be the belle of the ball at ROFLcon, thanks!

The pullquote here is actually misleading "And anyone who had those buttons on, whether you knew them or not, was someone you could approach and ask: 'Excuse me, but may I touch your breasts?'" If you read the clarification, red ("no") button wearers were not just saying "no" they were basically saying "Don't even ask and I'd prefer not to talk about this whole business."
posted by jessamyn at 6:47 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

I was hoping that when MeFi lit up with a titillating (sorry) title (sorry) like "The Open Source Boob Project", it would link to a clever play on words designed to prick (sorry) interest in reading a post about a new initiative of the British Organization of Orwellian Bores... or something. But no, it is indeed a post about a frigging moron who designed a situation in which women are actually being asked to wear a button that either (a) authorizes or (b) prohibits people from touching their breasts (sorry).

Never mind a "sexist" tag. Isn't there one for "High Count on the Really Stupid Shit-o-Meter"? I thought MetaFilter was a classier place than this.
posted by Mike D at 6:48 AM on April 23

I still don't understand why the "No" buttons were necessary. If wearing a "Yes" button means that people have permission to ask you if they can touch your breasts (and to potentially be rejected, I guess), and if lack of a button is a default "No", what's the logical point of offering a "No" button as well? (Don't make me try a Venn diagram here, folks.)

Maybe the point of the "No" button was really to identify the women who had been asked to participate and who refused, so that only buttonless women could be approached in good cheer and fellowship and invited to choose a button. So buttonless women got to be meta-asked, I guess, which not only goes against the goal of the project, but is rather creepy as well. I can see and sympathize with how isolated some of these guys feel, but if women were actually coming up and asking if their breasts were good enough to be touched -- well, that readiness to seek reassurance so awkwardly is a whole other flavour of sad there, too. How many women put on "Yes" buttons out of a sense of fun and self-empowerment, and how many did so because they didn't want to look like prudes? And how many didn't participate because they thought they'd wear the "Yes" button yet never get asked anyway?

I need a cup of tea and a little special time with Cam now.
posted by maudlin at 6:49 AM on April 23

ewww.
posted by miss tea at 6:49 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

I know this is a breach of etiquette and decorum, but I am compelled to ask: Why the fuck is this socially retarded 5th-grade horse-shit on MetaFilter?
posted by Mister_A at 6:57 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]

These nerds should be ashamed of themselves. Cons are for a good time, not trying to get a lucky grope in on some stranger's boob.

If you really must get laid at a con, shouldn't it be done in the more traditional way - booze and room parties?
posted by smackwich at 6:59 AM on April 23

To me, the main issue is not about the women and men who were involved in the project but the other convention goers. I don't know about you, but I go to Cons to fawn over C-grade celebrities and geek out on overpriced memorabilia. If I was attending this Con where women were willingly allowing their breasts to be fondled I don't believe this would enhance the Convention atmosphere. More likely, make me want to stay far, far away from those indulging in the groping. Mostly, I wouldn't feel like I was in a safe space at all, which is sad because I've always felt really comfortable in the welcoming and accepting nature of most Cons.
posted by liquorice at 7:01 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]

Dear fucking christ, you know all that stuff people say about sexism in IT and the world and the internet and all that shit? It's never touched me. I have known, from other people's stories, that it exists, that somehow people can behave in a way that makes it clear that for some reason they actually might consider me as a woman first and as a programmer/asshole/contributor second, but it's never been something that I could really imagine.

Way to go, you stupid sexist fucking wanker. I get it now. People like you actually exist. They actually graduated high school and made it to the real world without getting the stupid beaten out of them. I hate the whole world a little bit more now. And if any shithead ever asks me, at a professional conference, if he can touch my breasts, I'll go ahead and kick him in the nuts without asking.
posted by jacalata at 7:03 AM on April 23 [32 favorites]

When I saw the title I was sure that it was a project to provide breast implants cheap to the masses.

This is just icky. But I sure knew some of these guys in college, and the truth is that there are women who like this, who find it equally liberating, who really enjoy having that kind of attention. Just like with those photos that I think were linked here the other week of those bizarre orange-tinted muscle guys from New Jersey, or swingers parties, or anything else I find marginally repellent -- there are plenty of people for whom it is a real treat.
posted by Forktine at 7:08 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Doesn't the guy who came up with this write Magic the Gathering articles?

So setting aside the idea that having a connection to an actual game company makes you a prime catch at some conventions (I'm not proud of what I done), you'd think that this guy has enough experience with posting essays to the intarwebs to know that there was only one way this sort of thing could go down: badly.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:08 AM on April 23

professional The rest stands, though.
posted by jacalata at 7:09 AM on April 23

Can you just imagine the heavy mouth breathing and wet little lip-smacky sounds this guy makes when he actually gets his hands on an actual woman? It must be like getting attacked by the Gelatinous Cube of fucking dork.
posted by The Straightener at 7:10 AM on April 23 [35 favorites]

if any shithead ever asks me, at a professional conference, if he can touch my breasts, I'll go ahead and....

You know, I think I would go ahead and let him, photograph the whole thing and then go all dog-poop girl on the whole adventure because I think there are still some people who would be surprised by the fact that there are more similarities between nerds-gone-wild and girls-gone-wild than there are differences.

Really I don't think it's so much that the whole idea of "Hey your breasts are beautiful can I touch them?" is so fucked in and of itself (people think it, people refrain from asking in polite or mixed company, consensual breast-touching is often an agreeable pastime) but that it's really a one-way street here. It's not like there's some sort of sex come-on where the guys are like "Hey, I would like to give you a really rocking orgasm the best way I know how!" they're just copping a selfish feel in a sort of "OMG tee hee" way and then going on to the next selfish feel.

While it feels good in certain contexts to have your rack appreciated, this just seems like taking advantage of the "it's a con and we're nerds and all rules of social interaction are up for grabs!" (sorry) situation and taking something that could be fun and sexy well into the realm of something pervy and transactional (and not in a good way).
posted by jessamyn at 7:13 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]

My sweetie has the satirical link on "have". Yay. She's so cool.

I will not comment on the original project beyond saying that I think it's a very stark expression of how having entitlement about a certain form of (male) privilege can turn geeky cluelessness and sliminess into a situation displaying a downright lack of ethics and awareness of how it can sometimes be coercive to seek consent.

This is why we have social etiquette, people. This is why we should remember that asking permission indicates there is a potential boundary there.
posted by kalessin at 7:14 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]

exhibitionism with rules? This is lame and inappropriate (as an idea, I mean). There has to be a better, still geeky way of nurturing each other's body image...

Some sort of limited vocabulary mesh networked compliment transfer device that has built-in share/receive ratio limits that favors the shy and neglected, time-decay anonymity, directional tagging, bound with an EULA that requires honesty and emotional responsibility. And a "need a long hug" panic button which sends a compatible hugger (based on temperament metrics, typical compliment traffic, age, height[!], etc.).

Then just have a stylish user signifier, like a feather pinned to clothing.

Le sigh...
posted by cowbellemoo at 7:21 AM on April 23

It must be like getting attacked by the Gelatinous Cube of fucking dork.

Kudos, sir. I like the cut of your jib.
posted by jquinby at 7:21 AM on April 23

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of Open Source Kicks to the Balls!
posted by lukemeister at 7:23 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]

hmmm, you forgot the HURF DURF BOOBIES tag.

It's like a handkerchief code for losers.

The juvenality of this idea is astounding, and shows just how dangerous nerdlove can be. What delmoi said about the 'nice guy' phenomenon nails it, and his hand-waving no, no, seriously, you guys got me all wrong, I'm a total feminist follow-up post just compounds the image of 'pathetic nerd' that he established with the original.
posted by cosmonik at 7:26 AM on April 23

We all reached out in the hallway, hands and fingers extended, to get a handful. And lo, we touched her breasts - taking turns to put our hands on the creamy tops exposed through the sheer top she wore, cupping our palms to touch the clothed swell underneath, exploring thoroughly but briefly lest we cross the line from 'touching" to "unwanted heavy petting." They were awesome breasts, worthy of being touched.

I agree. Camps. We need camps.
posted by Rafaelloello at 7:29 AM on April 23

LOLCONGOERS.

I think the idea is stupid. I also think the abuse being heaped on this guy is offensive both in tone and in scope. Unless I'm missing some real criticism from someone who was actually there of course.
posted by Skorgu at 7:37 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Oh my God. I think if I see this one more time, I might actually scream.

I've seen it about fifteen times on my LJ friends list, it was all over several communities this morning, including one of the fandom_wank spin-offs and just... ugh.

No one is coming out looking good here. Not Ferrett, not the people commenting and making assumptions about his life (for the record, the dude is married. He gets plenty of play.), not the people screaming about how no one could REALLY have wanted to do this, or how anyone who wanted to do this is obviously a loser.

The entire thing, post, follow-up post, commenters, every single bit of it, including this post because I should know better? Is dumb.

The project is closed, he realized it was a bad idea, and really, going on and on and oonnnnnnn about how sexist it is, or how socially freeing it is, or how much of a loser Ferrett must be, or how man-hating the detractors must be? Really, does it actually accomplish anything, or is everyone just getting their rocks off in proclaiming feminism, anti-feminism, anti-anti-feminism, etc?
posted by FritoKAL at 7:40 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]

The camp metaphor is really sketchy. Historically the people most accessible in our cultural memory who were put in camps were the ones who did not deserve it and who were villainized by societal forces beyond their control. They were put there by powermad fearmongers. As much as I think this experiment was weird and noxious, I'm not in the camp-putter-inner camp and I find that metaphor more than a little off.
posted by jessamyn at 7:41 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]

This is why we have social etiquette, people.

Allow me to play devil's advocate: You're forgetting that some people lack an understanding of social etiquette. It's astonishing how often we take for granted that socialization is learned, not some god-given knowledge people are born with. There are many who, through whatever combination of social ostracism and biological inability (eg Asperger Syndrome), don't learn your norms of etiquette.

This event may squick you out, but prior to the mass freakout after posting, I don't see any evidence of an awareness on behalf of the planner that he'd done something wrong. The awkward caveats and explanations seem to have come from the negative reaction he received.

I can't imagine the initial idea was any more complex than "I and others want to touch some boobies, and there are some girls out there who want their boobies touched. What on earth could be wrong with bringing these two factions together?" It was certainly ill-advised, and certainly brought about by, as others have noted, a hefty dose of nerd-groupthink, but I have difficulty connecting that to being Demonstrative of Male Hegemony.

On preview: He's married? Shit. Ignore this post.
posted by Ndwright at 7:43 AM on April 23

*pops his collar*
posted by cortex at 7:44 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

FritoKAL, I think folks object to the fact that the idea got so far off the ground before it was junked as a bad idea. I too think it is objectionable.

Ferrett's other character traits aside, it's true that he is like that - he'll post about stuff that's not well-thought-out. It's his poor fortune that the Internets have a long memory for foolishness and a short memory for redress. But then, he can hardly claim not to know about that, being an Internets shit-stirrer from the get-go.

Sorry the attention is so painful (possibly for you, potentially for Ferrett), but I think you doth protest too much. You pays your money, you takes your choice.
posted by kalessin at 7:44 AM on April 23

Ndwrite, the lack of awareness of privilege does not excuse the doer from being entitled. Self-education is always warranted, including the ability to recognize and respond appropriately to social cues. This is a basic social survival trait.

I don't expect it because I am blind to the fact that some folks haven't achieved that level of survival. I expect it because I have standards.
posted by kalessin at 7:46 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

The camp metaphor is really sketchy. Historically the people most accessible in our cultural memory who were put in camps were the ones who did not deserve it and who were villainized by societal forces beyond their control. They were put there by powermad fearmongers. As much as I think this experiment was weird and noxious, I'm not in the camp-putter-inner camp and I find that metaphor more than a little off.

Camps for the rest of us then?
posted by Rafaelloello at 7:47 AM on April 23

Ha, in my day a TRUE gaming geek would not be distracted by breasts. I went to a con once with a friend who in medieval garb who could shoot hard candies from her breast region. She would come up to fellow gamers and ask, "would you like a candy?" and if they said, "Yes" would shoot one right out from her bodice. It was a skill, almost a gift. Anyway, the true gamers would yell at her for distracting people from the Warhammer table and tell her to get the hell away because serious business was happening. If you are distracted by breasts at a con then you sir or madam, are no true geek. And oh yeah, get the hell off my lawn/chest munchkin!
posted by jadepearl at 7:48 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]

As long as they respect a woman's wishes when says No, what's the problem?
posted by grubi at 7:49 AM on April 23

But I sure knew some of these guys in college, and the truth is that there are women who like this, who find it equally liberating, who really enjoy having that kind of attention. Just like with those photos that I think were linked here the other week of those bizarre orange-tinted muscle guys from New Jersey, or swingers parties, or anything else I find marginally repellent -- there are plenty of people for whom it is a real treat.

The problem that I have with it, really, is the setting. This isn't something that a hobbyist's con should be about, methinks. (Sorry...it's gonna take me a couple days to get the "methinks," "forsooths," etc., out of my system.) Because, regardless of why you showed up at the con, it's now TittyTouchin'Con '08. That's a little, y'know, deceptive. Like getting into someone's car thinking you're going out to dinner and a movie but then dude says, "Hey, also, along the way, we're going to stop and pick up a bunch of my friends? And, I mean, this is cool, I think they might all want to feel you up. Is that okay? We're still getting dinner!"
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:50 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]

When I read about this at Scalzi's weblog Whatever (which is down for the moment, so linking cain't happen) I misunderstood and thought the whole project had been organized initially by a woman. I kept thinking that for the first few comments in this thread—not having clicked through to the link—and when I realized it was a man who put it together, my whole attitude just inverted or something. At first I thought it was bizarre fun; now I think it's inept and will return to favorite delmoi's view, above. Fie!
posted by cgc373 at 7:52 AM on April 23

I guess you could skip out the camp step and go straight to grinding them into a nutrient mush that could keep the world's piggeries in feed for a few months.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 7:53 AM on April 23

As long as they respect a woman's wishes when says No, what's the problem?

I think the argument is that by creating the situation, there are woman who will consent not because they actually do so out of free choice but social pressure.
posted by drezdn at 8:01 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

We all reached out like zombies trying to break through a door to get to those breasts.
posted by mecran01 at 8:01 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Scalzi's take.
posted by cgc373 at 8:02 AM on April 23

Kalessin - Oh, it's not painful for me so much as just really annoying. I don't agree with the Project, I wouldn't participate if asked, but -25- posts in 24 hours where 90% of the posters/commenters are the same people is just too much for anyone to handle.

EVERY single website I visit is talking about it. ALL OF THEM. And I find the whole thing so laughably pathetic that I just don't see why everyone else didn't look at it, laugh, shake their heads in that "Oh God, that's dumb" and WALK AWAY.

Ultimately all this publicity for it means that someone with even -less- tact then Ferrett, who is renowned for his lack of tact and clue is going to try to resurrect it with even LESS ability to make it un-skeevy.

You think it's bad now? NOW it's been seen not just by the 2700 people on Ferrett's LJ, but about ten times more then that due to all the posts about it. At least one of those places is one of the anti-feminism groups on LJ. Odds on them trying to resurrect this without a "no" button? Or without the "Even with a Yes button, you can say no?" rule intact? HIGH.
posted by FritoKAL at 8:08 AM on April 23

Really, does it actually accomplish anything, or is everyone just getting their rocks off in proclaiming feminism, anti-feminism, anti-anti-feminism, etc?

You're new around here right? This sort of rock off-getting is hugely popular in these parts.
posted by three blind mice at 8:09 AM on April 23

I discussed this with a female friend and we both agreed that we would not find this nearly as icky if it were a bunch of women groping each other's boobs. I mean, boobs are fun. My friends and I comment on and poke at each other's - but the idea that a bunch of men started this and are somehow judging and validating women's bodies - yuck!

I could see it working in a group of trusted friends (though I'd still question the gender relations dynamics in that group) but I really hope this doesn't catch on at other gatherings. I haven't been at a convention in a very long time, but something like this would make it an extremely unwelcoming environment, even if one could opt out.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 8:10 AM on April 23

What disgusting behavior by a bunch of pathetic unsocialized losers. Reading that livejournal account by "theferret", I want to pull paragraphs out and write a clinical intake of his sexual dysfunction. But that would take forever.

You know, all of these people are very nice people. They are the kind of people who feel lonely and alienated because they're 'weird' and they end up forming clubs where everyone is nice and accepting to each other and all enjoy super-nerdy pursuits.

What you say is true, but ultimately this isn't healthy. Here is the key to what I am going to call "nerd pathology" - the nerd Rosetta Stone:

For a moment, everything that was awkward about high school would fade away and you could just say what was on your mind.

Nerds have to take responsibility for their own lives. I was a nerd in high school, and high school for me sucked in every way imaginable. But once you are in college, there are no more cliques that exclude you, no more baggage, no more parents etc. You are on your own. If two months into college you are still alienated and ostracized, it is your fault, not society's. You are lacking in some social skills that others have, and that deficiency is holding you back.

For some reason, it became socially acceptable for nerds to retreat into computers and wallow in their alienation, instead of trying to improve themselves. The inability to talk to girls, strangers, and adults became a source of pride. Nerds have built a sub-culture for themselves that so insular that they have managed to convince each other that the rest of society is backwards, and that they are the smart and enlightened.

Truth be told, it is very easy to talk to women if you realize that they are people with a mind who have something interesting to say. Women aren't a collection of sex parts behind a security system that needs to be bypassed before you can access them. If you are thirty and can't talk to women, you need to see a psychologist, because you have serious problems. Acknowledging this to be the case is part of the solution, but not the entire solution.

On to the articles: the idea of these buttons came about because this guy and his friends were lamenting that groping a woman's breasts wasn't a trivial. They can't talk to women, which actually is trivial, so they want the entirely of interpersonal interaction that extends beyond conversation collapsed down to the level of a polite greeting. That is insane.

What awful non-humans these people want to be. Where is the love of romance? Where is the passion? Don't you want to have the chance to be charming, to be charismatic? Don't you want to connect with someone on so deep a level that they make themselves vulnerable to you? Don't you want to do the same? Don't you want to look into someone else's eyes and explore the unfathomable mystery you find there?

Or have you convinced yourself that charisma, charm and wit are 'tricks' that men ply to dupe women into sex? Understand that for most people, most healthy people, sex isn't the objective, the relationship is the objective. That connection with another person that remains even during physical separation. A connection so deep and profound that it makes physical intimacy both frightening and exhilarating, no matter how experienced you are.

FTA: It wasn't that she was a piece of meat to be felt up, but rather that a living person that we did not know had voluntarily lowered the barriers that separate us and allowed us in... And we were so grateful that we were showering her in pure adoration.

Oh, adoration! What a brilliant idea he came up with that has been commonplace in bars and nightclubs for decades! He says over and over that the woman "retains her right to say no." Oh great benefactor, thank you for not enslaving the women. Oh, great Conqueror, our eternal gratitude for not rendering all women concubines! Of course she retains her right to say no, and you don't have the ability to take it away in any case.

Does this fool, this eunuch who cannot ask a woman even to join him for a dance, does he think he has the power to project his will with such force that it robs women of their consent?

If these people think this is so wonderful, they then admit they are not capable of any relationship that extends beyond prostitution. If the entire world operated under these rules, these people should realize that while a few women would let them touch their breasts, nearly all women would still refuse to go on a date with them.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:11 AM on April 23 [47 favorites]

FritoKAL, I'm glad you're not invested in the OSBP cause.

As for folks bitching about it, it's outrageous. It's going to keep being outrageous as long as there's something to talk about. That's also how the Internets work, wouldn't you agree?
posted by kalessin at 8:14 AM on April 23

Kalessin - Yeah. I just wish people would stop and think "Oh, crap, is my bitching going to actually make this potentially WORSE?"

It's like LJ-strikethrough and one-day boycotts. Are you really helping, or just causing drama and making people go "Wow, you're WAY over the top here, and I'm going to disagree with you just so I don't look as dumb as you." (Also a dumb reaction, but commonplace.)
posted by FritoKAL at 8:18 AM on April 23

If two months into college you are still alienated and ostracized, it is your fault, not society's. You are lacking in some social skills that others have, and that deficiency is holding you back.

The inability to talk to girls, strangers, and adults became a source of pride.

With it's own fancy 'syndrome'.
posted by pieoverdone at 8:27 AM on April 23

The topic of the post made me lose faith in humanity.

The snarks in this thread restored it.

Thank you MetaFilter. Thank you.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 8:32 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Whoops. Sorry I went bold on you guys. I was going to quote someone and I forgot to.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 8:33 AM on April 23

As long as they respect a woman's wishes when says No, what's the problem?
posted by grubi at 10:49 AM on April 23 [+] [!]

The problem is that this is not a question I, and I think for once I can actually speak for most women, ever even want to be asked. Magically, because lots and lots of people don't want this question even asked, it ordinarily is not. And that is a really good thing and one where basic social etiquette really works.

Here's the deal: this is my body. I have breasts. I appreciate being left the fuck alone when I'm doing something, whether that's at a con or walking down the street or at the store or whatever. Here's a little exercise: try turning it around, as long as your wishes are respected if you say no, is it okay if anyone - and I'm saying anyone, male or female - comes up to you on the street and says, hey, can I squeeze your testicles? How about when you're busy and minding your own business and not actually even thinking about your testicles at that exact moment? How would you feel if that kept right on happening?

It would make me want to start shooting people, to be honest. Leave my breasts alone because, look, if I want someone to touch my breasts, I can guarantee that he will know about it. He won't even have to ask out loud. Really. And the pool of men who I want to touch my breasts is very, very small and it doesn't include even one stranger.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:34 AM on April 23 [24 favorites]

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?"

Jeez, they're all good enough to be touched.
posted by fixedgear at 8:38 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Here's a little exercise: try turning it around

According to theferrett, somewhere in his response to 1300 comments, women had offered to do just this - and he knocked them back.

And if you believe him, I have a bridge to sell you. Unfortunately the 'just imagine it was you' thing doesn't really apply to many situation regarding sexism, because until men have been objectified from year dot to the same degree females have, both personally and implied throughout society, then it's going to be difficult for men to appreciate how fucking uncomfortable it is when people operate on the assumption that your body is somehow communal.
posted by cosmonik at 8:39 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?"

I assumed this was just a lead-in to her asking "and...I'm a virgin, I don't know much about sex...will you teach me, theferrett?" at which point he normally wakes up.
posted by cosmonik at 8:41 AM on April 23 [15 favorites]

Whoops. Sorry I went bold on you guys. I was going to quote someone and I forgot to.

This is no excuse for ignoring my No You May Not (Bold) button.

Overall: basic obliviousness about one's own dysfunctions is by no means restricted to nerds. But man, when they hang theirs out, they hang theirs out. It's like the world is constantly throwing them Mardi Gras beads.
posted by Drastic at 8:43 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Their sexism was outrageously tepid and juvenile, but what really grinds my gears about this is that it could have been an interesting open sores experiment if they'd simply allowed the meaning of "Yes" and "No" to change organically, and maybe thrown in a few blank buttons for people to write their own instruction sets on. Probable result? Nerd orgy. Which may or may not have involved sexuality, but would at least have been interesting.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:43 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

There are posts about this all over the parts of the internet I frequent, and I like it. I like that when someone makes a blog post which makes me feel as creeped-out and icky as this one, there are lots of people saying hey, no, this shit is not acceptable and here are dozens of articulate arguments and parodies and discussions of the issues, and that next time I happen to go to a con while in possession of breasts not everyone is going to be thinking like theferrett was.
posted by penguinliz at 8:45 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]

As a geek living in Southeast Michigan, I had to make a choice this weekend: Penguicon, a D&D Meetup, or a Democratic Party district convention. I am now so glad I chose politics over computers.

Those people sound like a bunch of losers. They sound like the losers who used to show up at my college gaming club, say stupid things about women, and get mocked until they ran away. Rejected by people who played Dungeons & Dragons as their primary hobby. That's some serious, full-color, life-size, world-endling loserdom, there, and apparently, it's taken over Penguicon.

Penguicon is now permanently ensconced in my mind as "the boob-touching convention." From now on, everytime somebody suggests I go, I'm going to have to say "Isn't that the boob-touching convention?" If someone tells me they're going, I'm going to have to warn them, "Hey! Look out for the boob-touchers!" I'm going to be a one-man anti-Penguicon propaganda machine.

Man, I'd really like to punch somebody right now. I should start the Open Source Punch a Sexist Project. Anybody know a union print shop around Detroit that can make some buttons for me?
posted by faster than a speeding bulette at 8:46 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]

an interesting open sores experiment

I am adamantly opposed to any Open Sores project, regardless of the body parts involved.
posted by Drastic at 8:46 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]

Fair enough, mygothlaundry. That's all I needed to know.
posted by grubi at 8:47 AM on April 23

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?" And lo, we showed them how beautiful their bodies were without turning it into something tawdry.

Okay, so I'm assuming that never happened. And, the moment anyone says "and lo", the response should be an automatic 2+1 drill, double-tap to the chest and a single to the head.

But there it is again, we showed them how beautiful their bodies were. They were the arbiters of beauty, and it depended on first touching their breasts. See how he tries to sound magnanimous in the act of judging her? Because at the core level, this is about power and control for these guys. He's so happy he had some power over women for once, he can't contain himself.

And Scalzi's take is, I'm sorry to say, preposterous:

I think it’s reasonable for folks to get used to breasts being a component of a whole human, not these strange, mystical entities there to entice and distract one, and if there’s any place where there are people who could benefit from this lesson, it’s a convention full of computer, science fiction and anime geeks, many of whom are very young men (temporally and/or socially). Hopefully some of them benefited from the experience, and not just because they got to touch a girl’s breasts.

What's the benefit that the geeks can gain from this? How does creating an environment where it's socially acceptable for men to ask to touch a woman's breasts help them to see that breasts are a component of the whole woman? They aren't asking to hold their hand or touch their hair. You know what would actually help these geeks?

Notice that the commentary is from the standpoint of the guys. Why does he assume that geeks=men. Weren't the women there also geeks? What is the lesson that women learned? They learn that men can change the social order at their whim into an one where their refusal to have strangers violate their personal space nonetheless attracts undue attention to their bodies. Men of course do not have to submit.

You know what I'm going to do for the next Penguincon? I'm going to hire five or six nearby college football teams to show up in full uniform and just walk around through the entire convention, mingling and saying and doing whatever they want. You want high school, motherfucker? I'll give you high school.

We live in a civilized society, please don't ruin it.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:47 AM on April 23 [14 favorites]

Man, I feel robbed. I was hoping for some kind of an Open Source Boobie Project.

You know, a counter to that fucking penguin who gets all the good press.
posted by quin at 8:52 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

BTW, unfortunately married does NOT always mean lots of play.

Personal experience here.
posted by Samizdata at 8:55 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

"I'm going to hire five or six nearby college football teams to show up in full uniform and just walk around through the entire convention, mingling and saying and doing whatever they want."

Well that'd guarantee breast-touching, at the very least.

penguinliz, I wonder if, at a convention, he'd be in the minority re. his conception of female anatomy, and how males may treat such. Here's hoping.

I wonder what the threshold is for virtual suicide of an online entity - would it be easier for him if he just folded up his LJ, start up again as theotter or theweasel or some other mustelid, and distanced himself entirely from his 'theferrett' personae?
posted by cosmonik at 8:59 AM on April 23

I didn't read further than the title of the FPP. But if it has anything to do with Toothing or Greenighting:

I'd.
Hit.
That.

OK, back to work. "Welcome to Wendy's; may I take your order, please?"

Timer reset?
posted by not_on_display at 9:00 AM on April 23

Samizdata, true enough. We must remember that Howard Stern was also married during a lot of his shock jockiness years.
posted by kalessin at 9:06 AM on April 23

lukemeister: "In my day we used the touch command, and we were glad to have it!"

grandsham@animecon /usr/female $ touch breast

touch: cannot touch `breast': Permission denied

Obviously, hese guys just need to know how to use chmod.
posted by grandsham at 9:16 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]

As long as they respect a woman's wishes when says No, what's the problem?

The problem is that the default should be "no", but in the OSBP, the default is "yes", and the women are the ones who have to be proactive and wear a big red button to tell you not to do something you shouldn't be doing in the first place.

The problem is that it's legitimizing treating women like objects.

The problem is that women are already basically born wearing a green button, and live their lives trying to take it off.
posted by tzikeh at 9:16 AM on April 23 [14 favorites]

Ugh.
posted by maxwelton at 9:27 AM on April 23

The problem is that the default should be "no", but in the OSBP, the default is "yes"

...Office of Small Business Programs?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:28 AM on April 23

I know this is a breach of etiquette and decorum, but I am compelled to ask: Why the fuck is this socially retarded 5th-grade horse-shit on MetaFilter?

I assume so we can all moan about how it being socially retarded, 5th-grade horseshit. Which it is.

What I'd like to know is why it's tagged with feminism and not sexism?

Some great reactionary posts on LJ though.
posted by opsin at 9:33 AM on April 23

"Hey, I would like to give you a really rocking orgasm the best way I know how!"

Idea for yes/no buttons at the next con?
posted by owtytrof at 9:33 AM on April 23

I read in the paper today that PETA is offering a million-dollar prize for the first person to come up with a viable way to produce breasts in vitro.

These so-called test-tube breasts will be touchable without the social awkwardness of having to ask the bearer for permission.
posted by found missing at 9:38 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

"Hey, I would like to give you a really rocking orgasm the best way I know how!"

Hint: It involves my iPod, one rather curious attachment, and The Very Beast of Dio
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:38 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]

As long as they respect a woman's wishes when says No, what's the problem?

Not to mention, you end up with women who were completely unaware of the nonsense, and have neither button. Now it's socially acceptable in this project to walk up to a woman you don't know and say, "Hey, where's your button?" "Why aren't you wearing a button?" "Don't you want a button?"

Isn't it a clever project? You can force women to participate for yea or nay, when they should be allowed to be just left alone in the first place.
posted by headspace at 9:39 AM on April 23

It could be the lack of sleep for me today, but the additions of 1) a third button that said, "Guess," with accompanying knife and/or 2) pictures of the groper's mother's breasts for every other woman wearing a button to be shown during the process, seems really funny right now. Other than that, it's not funny.
posted by sleepy pete at 9:40 AM on April 23

Isn't it a clever project? You can force women to participate for yea or nay, when they should be allowed to be just left alone in the first place.

In all seriousness, I'm really surprised that there are apparently no reports of nerdy little mouthbreathers getting knocked the fuck out. Or at least yelled at.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:43 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

I'd touch it.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:00 AM on April 23

You're new around here right? This sort of rock off-getting is hugely popular in these parts.
Excellent, so it's not just racism.
posted by bonaldi at 10:11 AM on April 23

the women are the ones who have to be proactive and wear a big red button to tell you not to do something you shouldn't be doing in the first place.

Ah. I thought we were just talking about the simple act of asking, not specifically the button thing. But, yeah, that makes sense. It is particularly douchey.
posted by grubi at 10:23 AM on April 23

I'm so glad we're putting livejournal drama on fucking metafilter.
posted by shmegegge at 10:36 AM on April 23

You are? May I touch your comment?
posted by found missing at 10:49 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

It's like Valie Export's "Tap and Touch Cinema," completely reversed.
posted by hydrophonic at 10:50 AM on April 23

Pastabagel:

"Notice that the commentary is from the standpoint of the guys. Why does he assume that geeks=men. Weren't the women there also geeks?"

In fact, the person I heard it from -- after the fact, and after I'd left the convention -- was a female participant, who is definitely a geek, and was rather positive about the experience. And cgc373, when I heard about it, I was under the impression it was female-initiated as well, because that's who I heard about it from. Indeed, in a follow-on post, I wrote:

I’m for the idea of demystifying breasts to young men who fetishize them to the extent of not being able to process the fact there is an actual person that they are part of, yes. My understanding of the project was that this was a component of the thing, although I fully admit that inasmuch as my knowledge came after the fact and based on what I remember being told about it at lunch, it may have been at variance with how it was envisioned by the participants, or how it was otherwise reported. How I saw it, however, was that if some women wanted to attempt to mitigate mammary hyperfocus in socially underdeveloped male geeks via this sort of offer, I was fine with that and wished them luck with it.

I'd note that it's not the way I'd do it, personally.
posted by jscalzi at 10:53 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Timer reset?

Damn you!
posted by dersins at 10:57 AM on April 23

ew
posted by FunkyHelix at 11:00 AM on April 23

Yeah, this seems like the sort of thing some of the people I went to University would dream up. Also, in a posse like this, there is always that one chick ready to say, "You can touch my boob." The social dynamics of the super-nerdy are interesting.
posted by chunking express at 11:09 AM on April 23

I agree with so much that Pastabagel is saying.

I am proud of my nerd heritage. But I hate the tradition of glorification of sexual retardation within certain segments of the Nerdo-American community. Nowadays, with three recent Tolkien-based major movies having been so popular, and a computer of some type in every room of many people's houses, I feel a little vindicated for my high-school days when I risked getting an ass-kicking for carrying a book about elves and hobbits that had a map in it, or knowing how to load a file from another computer across town onto the one I was sitting at.

So, a lot of classical nerdosity has gone mainstream. And this "nerdly relations as sexual harassment" theme went mainstream with it a long time ago. The movie Revenge of the Nerds, for instance, featured Our Supposed Heroes The Male Nerds relating to women by sneaking cameras into their rooms to watch them undress, and tricking them into sex. And these were seen as the Nerds' Great Triumphs!
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:11 AM on April 23

Man, I don't know about you guys, but I feel so much better about myself now that I've found out what kind of person everybody hates (and I'm not like him)!
posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:13 AM on April 23

I don't know.

Maybe I'm just a freak (as so many tell me), but, given it's purely voluntary and the rules are obeyed, the whole thing sounds vaguely amusing. Hell, I'd wear a "Yes" button myself (some seriously perky A cups here - yes, I am a boy, BTW) just for the good spirit of the thing.

It reminds me of a seriously odd adult Halloween party I went to once. Someone had a costume consisting of cardboard shaped in such a fashion over a woman in a wheelchair that nothing but her rather large bare breasts could be seen. Above them, there was the simple caption "Touch them".

I didn't get to try, mind you, as I was in a rather elaborate costume as a hanged man, and the foam gallows strapped to me precluded any real bending over, but it was still a rather interesting experience. In an odd sort of way, though, it really didn't do much for me at all, much like those, ahem, parts you see in adult stores.

I guess I am a whole package kind of guy. And, no, that doesn't mean any significant others of mine have to get little tattoos everywhere that say "Not intended for individual sale"...
posted by Samizdata at 11:15 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Oh, and geek is a completely gender neutral term, IMLTHO...
posted by Samizdata at 11:16 AM on April 23

I quit reading theferrett some time ago. I can't remember why. I think his politics turned me off.
posted by chuckdarwin at 11:22 AM on April 23

I discussed this with a female friend and we both agreed that we would not find this nearly as icky if it were a bunch of women groping each other's boobs.

Well.... actually....

That's how it started.

From the clarification, The originators of the Project were women, who asked first, and received first, with the men asking afterwards. In fact, it started out as women exploring each other.
posted by dwivian at 11:31 AM on April 23

Women aren't a collection of sex parts behind a security system that needs to be bypassed before you can access them.

And here I thought this was what made them so much fun...

Kidding. Nice diagnosis Pasta.

Asking a beautiful woman to dance is one of my favorite things about being alive.
posted by allkindsoftime at 11:39 AM on April 23

Man, what a "Ladies, I sure do love cunnilingus" feeling over in those comments.
posted by klangklangston at 11:47 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]

Klang, if you can come up with some sort of word (possibly in German) that can defined as a '"Ladies, I sure do love cunnilingus" feeling, I promise to put a picture of you next to it in my homemade dictionary.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:52 AM on April 23

As soon as I heard about this from various people on my livejournal it made me think of the MENSA convention A.J. Jacobs visits in The Know-It-All, where people have stickers on their nametags indicating whether or not they accept hugs.
posted by jtron at 11:57 AM on April 23

As a woman who was at Penguicon for the whole weekend with another woman, neither of us even saw any of this going on. I saw a girl with one of the green buttons but she was kind of an asshole so I didn't bother to ask about it.

Penguicon actually had a really good gender ratio for a sci-fi and computer focused gathering, and I actually had no bad or cringeworthy gender-related experiences. At all! Randall Munroe of XKCD actually talked about sexism on the internet at his panel. It was great.

So come to Penguicon! It's not inherently a boob-grabbing festival, it's really cool and there is free beer. That is all.
posted by Tesseractive at 11:58 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]

I read two of the pages linked, just two, and I read none of the comments, and at least half of the indignant questions asked in this thread are answered in one of those two pages, mostly on the clarification page.

Those buttons were given out by one woman only, who only gave them to people she could vouch for or who had been vouched… Because she had to trust that the people involved would be cool with it. If you didn’t wear a button and didn’t ask what was going on, nobody ever asked to touch you. The default was thoroughly opt-in.

it was approximately 4% of the con, mostly people who knew each other.

I think the whole scenario's a bit weird, and kinda juvanile, and there's something that sounds wrong about it, but if those two statements are true, it lessens a lot of the shudder factor.

I've never been to a Con, of any sort, but I understand them to be a gathering of a particular community, with a lot of the people familiar with each other beforehand, and I can see something like this occurring without being a crime against the human race, much less concentration camp worthy, for heaven's sake.
posted by redsparkler at 11:59 AM on April 23

Tesseractive:

"As a woman who was at Penguicon for the whole weekend with another woman, neither of us even saw any of this going on."

Not a woman myself, but also at the convention the entire weekend long, and as a fairly high-profile guest, and all of this went right past me. Hell, I know The Ferrett and several other practitioners of the project, and I still didn't hear about it until after I was gone. They didn't make a big deal out of it. It really wasn't a major component of the con. It's a much larger issue after the fact then it was at the actual event.

I think it's rather unfortunate that Penguicon itself seems to be getting slammed for the Open Source Boob thing. It was the action of some of the attendees, not of the con itself.
posted by jscalzi at 12:10 PM on April 23

That'd be Das Cunnilingusliebensverhalten, I think. "Cunnilingus-loving demeanor."

Although there's probably a good colloquial word for cunnilingus that might sound better.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:25 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]

I have favorited all of the comments that made me laugh out loud. The phrase 'cockpunching', employed so skillfully by longbaugh above made tears run down my face. The internet represents both the worst and the best of humanity. Kudos to all of you for making my damn day.
posted by msali at 12:36 PM on April 23

Although there's probably a good colloquial word for cunnilingus that might sound better.

Guy's got kind of a, like, pussyeating grin? That doesn't cover the desperate twinkle in the eye, though. You know the one I mean.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:43 PM on April 23

I’m for the idea of demystifying breasts to young men who fetishize them to the extent of not being able to process the fact there is an actual person that they are part of, yes.

Yes, the best way to stop the fetishization of breasts is to come up with a game that allows men to reduce every encounter with a woman into an opportunity to touch her breasts. Why look a woman in the eye when it's so much easier to look at her button?
posted by turaho at 12:46 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: You know what's worse? LiveJournal.
posted by steelbuddha at 12:51 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]

Turaho:

"Yes, the best way to stop the fetishization of breasts is to come up with a game that allows men to reduce every encounter with a woman into an opportunity to touch her breasts."

Well, as I said, it's not the way I would do it.
posted by jscalzi at 12:57 PM on April 23

jscalzi, I'm not an "you're either with us or against us!" type of male feminist, but I do think that when we're talking about these sorts of topics it can do the most good for getting the message across (not to ferrett, who clearly heard the feedback, but to lurkers and hangers on) that it's not okay to behave that way is to frame that kind of negative feedback that you're sort of glancingly giving in a more direct and stronger tone.

I read your reaction, and yours seems more like a washing your hands of it and a you didn't see it sort of reaction, and not really any sort of condemnation. This sort of "it's not the way I would do it" reaction is pretty tepid, given the sheer loud indignation and outright hurt the publicity of the project seems to have induced in women in the world who were otherwise uninvolved and would not have heard about had ferrett chosen not to publicize it the way he did.

I'd personally prefer you to express a stronger opinion about it. You have the influence to do good with that sort of a stance.
posted by kalessin at 1:22 PM on April 23

I'm starting to think that the timer reset is deliberate. Those lies about there being no cabal are insidious.
posted by waraw at 1:37 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]

dwivian: I saw that, but the whole story was related from a male perspective, and probably because of that focused on the boob-groping by the men, which is the part that seemed icky. And it is icky, and the many facets of that ickyness have been described by hundreds of comments.

You want to be icky with your friends? Enjoy! But bring it out in public and it's open for commentary and yes, condemnation.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 1:38 PM on April 23

Stay Classy, Open Source Boob Projecteers!
posted by tittergrrl at 1:40 PM on April 23

Well, kalessin, you can prefer anything you'd like, of course, but it doesn't mean you're going to get it. The women I know who participated in this aren't stupid or passive or tools for men; they had their reasons for doing it, and I think it is relevant to note that in the context of when and where it happened, it was so not a big deal that it seems the majority of con-goers weren't even aware it was going on. While it's definitely not something I'd be inclined either to try or to suggest others do outside of very safe and consensual situations, I don't think it's the worst thing that's ever happened, either. I do give credit particularly to the women participating that they knew what they were doing and why and how it would play within the context in which it happened.

I do think there's an underlying assumption that the people who were doing this are idiots/oversexed dweebs/socially horribly maladapted/variously clueless, and alternately, that Penguicon was a nipple flash away from becoming some horrible spring break scenario in which howling bands of boys terrorized unsuspecting women. The reality of the situation is that neither of these is the case: The women I know who participated are accomplished and intelligent women who had a point they wanted to make about touching and intimacy, and who have been regular attendees of Penguicon over the years; the vast majority of Penguicon attendees, as far as I could see, were extremely well-behaved. The make Penguicon attendees might be geeks, but they're generally not dicks. There's a lot of arrogation of perspective going on, and people having a hard time imagining a brace of smart, well-adapted and, yes, feminist women doing something like this. Well, guess what: Smart, well-adapted and, yes, feminist women did something like this, and did it in a place where it could work like they wanted it to.

As I mentioned in my follow-on, the first time I heard about it was from one of these women, who was enthusiastic about the event and how it played out; my reaction on hearing about it was well, that's not what I would do, but, okay. Everyone else in the world heard it from the The Ferrett, who (as even he appears to admit now) wrote about it in just about exactly the right way to make Teh InterTubes have a massive spasm of indignation. I don't imagine if my first exposure to the concept was The Ferrett's retelling of it, that I would react any different, especially considering my basic lack of enthusaism for the concept anyway. However, that's not how I encountered the concept, and I know some of the people who participated and have faith in them as people that they weren't doing something stupidly or heedlessly. I'm not going to pretend male feminist indignation simply because people I don't know apparently expect it of me.

Would I have done something like the Open Source Boob project? No. Would I have availed myself of a free touch if I had known about it at the time? No. Would I suggest porting the Open Source Boob projects to other contexts and venues? No no no no no. Am I going to say or assume horrible things about the participants, some of whom I know? No. Am I going to change the way I express my opinion about it? No.
posted by jscalzi at 2:10 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]

If this group of little pishers (who, I'm convinced, all talk in creepy Peter Lorre voices) wanted to touch boobies, I just don't get why they didn't just stroll around in public at a crowded con wearing giant buttons that said:

I WOULD LIKE TO TOUCH THE BREASTS OF RANDOM WOMEN I DON'T KNOW but I am a feminist, baby, so don't punch me in the face

Oh, wait, that might have been humiliating and uncomfortable for the poor fellows, and we can't have that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:24 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]

I would support this project under one condition, that an approached female had one of THREE options:
1, green button
2, red button
3, cancel the project entirely and remove all buttons from the convention.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 2:38 PM on April 23

Open source is quite the misnomer here. How the fuck is this in any way open source? It sounds like a cuddle party gone even more wrong than cuddle parties usually are.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:33 PM on April 23

This doesn't look like Open Source, this looks like Public Access.

Either way....ew.
posted by casarkos at 3:42 PM on April 23

I really, really do not get what the big deal is here. Not even a little bit. Some people touched each other. So what? I was not there, so I only know what was written by people who were. But assuming the accounts are accurate, most responses I have seen seem completely ridiculous.

The "default" option was NOT grabbing people's breasts.

The "Yes" button was not an automatic invitation to grope. It meant "Yes, you may ask."

This was a small group of people who all decided to participate. People were not required to participate, or shamed for not participating. As far as I can tell, people were not even invited to participate unless they approached the participants, not the other way around.

These things are not sexist. They are not wrong. I think it's dumb, but my opinion really doesn't have anything to do with this group of people and their experience, which was, from all accounts, positive.
posted by Nothing at 3:59 PM on April 23

Part of the problem is that the actual reality of the project (small group of people, all linked in a network of friends, across both genders, not approaching any unconnected individuals, and just for the one convention) is totally at odd with theferrett's account, which gives the impression of a group of heterosexual men propositioning women they had never met because they thought their skimpy outfits were an invitation, and letting women know their breasts were worthy of groping. And goes on and on about how this was a wonderful, transcendent experience we should totally spread to other cons, and just screams of drooling fanboy finding a way to cop a feel and generally invokes my OH JOHN RINGO NO sense. I do find it hard to reconcile the smart, feminist women I know taking part in anything like that, and while the clarifications help, they don't negate the creepy vibe of the first post and many of theferett's replies to comments.

redsparkler: how well the con-goers know each other beforehand is going to be heavily dependent on the size of the con, and when you're up to a thousand attendees no one is going to know more than a subset of the other members. There is a tendency I've seen for people to assume that because everyone at a con is from the same broad community that it's a form of safe space where everyone will be awesome like your friends, when in reality anyone can buy a membership and wander in no matter how unpleasant they are.
posted by penguinliz at 4:22 PM on April 23

Penguinliz:

"Part of the problem is that the actual reality of the project (small group of people, all linked in a network of friends, across both genders, not approaching any unconnected individuals, and just for the one convention) is totally at odds with theferrett's account"

It's entirely possible that he's engaged in a bit of gonzo journalism in his recount. Certainly the version of it I heard about was less dramatic. It was more "this was a thing that happened" rather than "this is the beginning of a movement we're taking on the road."
posted by jscalzi at 4:40 PM on April 23

So you are saying that this is something to be outraged about because of how you imagined the situation, based on your "impression" of the "vibe", even though the actual situation was quite different? And you also find it difficult to imagine certain women you know liking what you imagine happened?

From what I can tell, all the noise is about the fact that what people imagine happened, or what people imagine might have happened if things had gone badly, or what people imagine might happen in the future if other people tried this, is bad, even if what actually happened was a positive thing for the people involved. That is a bit too much imagining for me to be able to get outraged.
posted by Nothing at 4:41 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]

From what I can tell, all the noise is about the fact that what people imagine happened, or what people imagine might have happened if things had gone badly, or what people imagine might happen in the future if other people tried this, is bad, even if what actually happened was a positive thing for the people involved. That is a bit too much imagining for me to be able to get outraged.

Well, no. It's noise about what people imagine happened based on the lengthy writing of a participant and apparent evangelist for the cause. So that's not a stretch at all, really.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:54 PM on April 23

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?"

I assumed this was just a lead-in to her asking "and...I'm a virgin, I don't know much about sex...will you teach me, theferrett?" at which point he normally wakes up.

Yes, then he has a shower, and changes his sheets.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:23 PM on April 23

also, i have no idea what an "entry tag" is in livejournal, but whatever they are, these offer a very depressing metacommentary or something:

Entry tags: a bit sad, agree with me or you're a prude, among the stupid the semi-stupid is king, basic decency is oppressive waaah, boobs =/= public domain, boobs drooling over boobs, can i touch your manboobs?, charizard hates your mom, crap thoughts on personal space, desu desu desu, don't judge me, elrond hates your sexist bullfuckery, entitlement complex - i has it, farmer ted, fauxpology, feminists are big meanies, getting back at the mean girls, getting your tits groped is feminist, half-assed passive-aggressive apologies, hi! i'm a jackass!, huh i didn't know backpedaling was spell, i don't understand peer pressure, i like nips, i'm a man so the world owes me boobs, i'm a misogynist jerk, i'm an ass, i'm so progressive, inability to set boundaries, king of the geeks, let me validate you, look but don't touch, male entitlement syndrome, male privilege, may i please kick you in the balls?, may i squeeze your waistflab?, molestation is totally respectful, molesting strangers is cool, my sexual enlightenment let me show you, neanderthal gratification, nearly 2000 years after one man had been, no social skills necessary, o hai passive aggression, objectification, part of the kick in the balls project, passive system, personal boundaries = prude, pretentious bullshit, really crap heterosexual ferret, shut up spelling nazi!, shutting down comments = nobody disagree, silly feminists and their personal space, so ronery, stfu and diaf plz, stupid women with their bodily autonomy, then they came for the lawn gnomes, this is not open source, unmitigated asshattery, very poor backpeddling, very poor spelling of "backpedaling", waaah feminists, when "nice guys" aren't nice at all, white people like sandwiches, why i'm scared to go to cons now, you people and your personal space, your boobies: give me them
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:26 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]

Richard Stallman looks really good in comparison.
posted by lukemeister at 5:40 PM on April 23

waraw,

We try not to take Our existence deniers personally.

It does occasionally get to Us however.

To relieve Our mood We sometimes take over Mr President Dr Steve Elvis America's login and make false comments.
posted by the Cabal at 5:52 PM on April 23

Stay Classy, Open Source Boob Projecteers!
posted by tittergrrl at 1:40 PM on April 23 [+] [!]

epony....hee hee.
posted by tristeza at 6:44 PM on April 23

Amen delmoi !!

Don't worry about women wearing "Yes you may" buttons out of social pressure. A few may wear them for rebellion, but they'll take the button off once they've have enough rebellion. No big deal.

See cuddle party for a more gender symmetrical (asexual) version.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:55 PM on April 23

jscalzi: In fact, the person I heard it from -- after the fact, and after I'd left the convention -- was a female participant, who is definitely a geek, and was rather positive about the experience. And cgc373, when I heard about it, I was under the impression it was female-initiated as well, because that's who I heard about it from.

I believe Pastabagel's criticism (with which I agree, frankly) is that you're aware of the female origins of the OSBP, but you characterize young men as "geeks" and the hypothetical women whose breasts they touch as "girls." And yet, the girls are also geeks, so you're implicitly denying them of their fellow geekitude. Hence the male-biased perspective to which PB refers.
posted by bettafish at 7:25 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]

Oh, and is theferrett always so inarticulate? I remember reading a profoundly stupid post from him once about how people with chronic illnesses and disabilities needed to Face Their Problems and Stop Medicalizing - and when I called him out on how he was vastly oversimplifying a spectrum of ways people manage illness - using a very ill-defined set of vocabulary to boot - it was always my fault for not understanding him because I didn't get his theory, or I wasn't willing to work with his vocabulary, or I was arguing outside the terms of his argument, or not accepting his good faith...

Anyway, he seems to be doing the same kind of backpedaling in the comments and clarifications here. It's never that he's failed to communicate; it's always on the other person.
posted by bettafish at 7:32 PM on April 23

Jsonic: I am very sorry to hear that you were kicked in the nuts and that this has impaired your ability to understand hyperbole. Way to go, however, on emphasizing that men can beat women up. You're a fucking champ.
posted by klangklangston at 8:19 PM on April 23 [7 favorites]