Mogadishu Madness
June 26, 2008 8:18 AM Subscribe
Two Current correspondents are the first American journalists to venture into Mogadishu, Somalia after the infamous 1993 incident when two U.S. military Black Hawk helicopters were shot down by Somali militia. They film one of city street gun markets to show how easy it is to buy an AK-47, a machine gun or even RPG launcher. Their full-length video report Mogadishu Madness reveals the country under the self-proclaimed government of the Islamic Court Union, which was later overthrown with the help of the United Sates.
So that market differs from Walmart how, exactly? Other than the thriving competition, that is. (And I assume there was competition and they were just using the designated English speaker to negotiate price rather than him really being the Sam Walton of Mogadishu Gun Markets.)
No assault rifles at Walmart? Or is that just in certain states?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:48 AM on June 26, 2008
No assault rifles at Walmart? Or is that just in certain states?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:48 AM on June 26, 2008
Also, why doesn't that whole need for a well armed militia/right to bear arms thing apply to the Mogadishuns? I suspect they're at least as likely to have an oppressive government that tries to strip them of their right as America is?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:51 AM on June 26, 2008
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:51 AM on June 26, 2008
No assault rifles at Walmart? Or is that just in certain states?
Walmart only sells rifles and shotguns, and not even that in many states. (Except Alaska they sell handguns for some reason.)
posted by smackfu at 8:54 AM on June 26, 2008
Walmart only sells rifles and shotguns, and not even that in many states. (Except Alaska they sell handguns for some reason.)
posted by smackfu at 8:54 AM on June 26, 2008
I hate to break it to the boys at Current, but I think this is done much better.
posted by phaedon at 9:00 AM on June 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by phaedon at 9:00 AM on June 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
I guarantee you no Walmart sells an assault rifle, PeterMcDermott. Maybe like a Bushmaster semi-automatic version of an M-16, but nothing with full-auto or three-shot capability. The amount of paperwork and shit you need to go through to legally possess an automatic firearm is pretty amazing.
posted by Ryvar at 9:00 AM on June 26, 2008
posted by Ryvar at 9:00 AM on June 26, 2008
Man, if only I could go shopping there and get my goods back in to the US. It would be sweet!
posted by a3matrix at 9:04 AM on June 26, 2008
posted by a3matrix at 9:04 AM on June 26, 2008
Peter, Wikipedia's article on the National Firearms Act sums it up pretty well:
All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain permission from the ATF, obtain a signature from the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and finger prints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax. The request to transfer ownership of an NFA item is made on an ATF Form 4.[2]
Importation of NFA weapons was banned by the 1968 Gun Control Act which implemented a "sporting" clause. Only firearms judged by ATF to have feasible sporting applications can be imported for civilian use. Licensed manufacturers of NFA weapons may still, with the proper paperwork, import foreign NFA weapons for research and development purposes.
The NFA defines a number of categories of weapons which are regulated therein. Collectively, these are known as "Title II" weapons and include the following:
1. Machine guns - this includes any firearm which can fire more than 1 cartridge per trigger pull. Both continuous fully-automatic fire and "burst fire" (ie, weapons with a 3-round burst feature) are considered machine gun features.
The manufacture of new machine guns that civilians could purchase was effectively banned by language in the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. The language is found in the so-called Hughes Amendment, which was passed under legally questionable circumstances.[8] All machine guns legally registered prior to the date of enactment (ie, May of 1986) are still legal for possession by and transfer among civilians where permitted by state law. The static and relatively small number of transferable automatic firearms has caused their price to be often over $10,000, although transferable M10 and M11 submachine guns (more commonly known as "Mac 10's") can still be purchased for around $3,500. Machine guns manufactured after the FOPA's enactment can be sold only to law enforcement and government agencies, exported, or in some cases held as inventory by licensed manufacturers and dealers. Non-transferrable guns made after 1986 are usually priced only a few hundred dollars more than their semi-automatic counterparts, whereas a machine gun that can be legally transferred commands a huge premium.posted by Ryvar at 9:14 AM on June 26, 2008
Ryvar, I think he was using the more widely accepted (though erroneous) definition of assault rifle as understood in most of the U.S. rather than the technical definition of a select fire rifle or carbine.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:16 AM on June 26, 2008
posted by adamdschneider at 9:16 AM on June 26, 2008
Somalia conflict kills more than 2,100 this year
MOGADISHU (Reuters) - Conflict in Somalia has killed 2,136 civilians so far this year, bringing the death toll since an Islamist-led insurgency began in early 2007 to 8,636, a local human rights group said on Thursday.
The Mogadishu-based Elman Peace and Human Rights Organisation said it had also recorded 11,790 civilian injuries since the start of last year, when rebels began attacking the Somali government and its Ethiopian military allies.
So not so good then.
posted by Artw at 9:17 AM on June 26, 2008
MOGADISHU (Reuters) - Conflict in Somalia has killed 2,136 civilians so far this year, bringing the death toll since an Islamist-led insurgency began in early 2007 to 8,636, a local human rights group said on Thursday.
The Mogadishu-based Elman Peace and Human Rights Organisation said it had also recorded 11,790 civilian injuries since the start of last year, when rebels began attacking the Somali government and its Ethiopian military allies.
So not so good then.
posted by Artw at 9:17 AM on June 26, 2008
Despite being a gun control person, I'm always somewhat disappointed when I learn the reality of US gun regulations. I remember the first time I visited New York City, being hugely disappointed at the lack of gun stores in Manhattan. I fully expected to see Jimbob's Guns and Ammo, right next door to Bloomingdales and Macy's.
Not sure why they bother to ban assault rifles either. You can legitimately sell some pretty horrendous weapons in certain states. Having to re-cock your weapon doesn't seem a big obstacle when it comes to mischief. Is this just a sop to the gun control lobby, or are lives really saved because your Mac 10 doesn't do automatic fire?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:22 AM on June 26, 2008
Not sure why they bother to ban assault rifles either. You can legitimately sell some pretty horrendous weapons in certain states. Having to re-cock your weapon doesn't seem a big obstacle when it comes to mischief. Is this just a sop to the gun control lobby, or are lives really saved because your Mac 10 doesn't do automatic fire?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:22 AM on June 26, 2008
(Naturally theres also a huge refugee problem as well, with people fleeing into countries that are already starving.)
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on June 26, 2008
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on June 26, 2008
FWIW, and despite what the Current guys say, they're not the first American journos to get into Mogadishu. My friend Ed Ou, an extraordinarily courageous photographer (with the AP now, with Reuters previously) has been in Mogadishu as well. All due respect to the Current, but there's significant difference between running into a gun market just to say you did, and running into a gun market so you can tell important stories about why they exist.
For examples, see here and here.
posted by awenner at 9:34 AM on June 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
For examples, see here and here.
posted by awenner at 9:34 AM on June 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
Having to re-cock your weapon doesn't seem a big obstacle when it comes to mischief. Is this just a sop to the gun control lobby, or are lives really saved because your Mac 10 doesn't do automatic fire?
You don't have to cock a semi-auto for every shot.
Single-shot = manually reload for every shot, this is most hunting and sniper rifles
Pump-action = manually reload using a very quick pumping mechanism, as seen in nearly every shotgun (sort of a fine distinction)
Semi-auto = one trigger pull per shot fired, but loading every round after the first in a magazine does not require a manual cocking of the gun. Realistic rate of fire is at best 100 rounds in a minute.
Full-auto = capable of a sustained trigger squeeze which automatically fires rounds at typically 600 to 900 per minute, still have to manually load the first round in a magazine.
As to some justification for why full-auto is so heavily discriminated against legally - say some psychotic asshole goes postal at a crowded mall or a parade. You're talking potentially an order of magnitude less people killed if he only has access to semi-automatic weapons.
posted by Ryvar at 10:36 AM on June 26, 2008
You don't have to cock a semi-auto for every shot.
Single-shot = manually reload for every shot, this is most hunting and sniper rifles
Pump-action = manually reload using a very quick pumping mechanism, as seen in nearly every shotgun (sort of a fine distinction)
Semi-auto = one trigger pull per shot fired, but loading every round after the first in a magazine does not require a manual cocking of the gun. Realistic rate of fire is at best 100 rounds in a minute.
Full-auto = capable of a sustained trigger squeeze which automatically fires rounds at typically 600 to 900 per minute, still have to manually load the first round in a magazine.
As to some justification for why full-auto is so heavily discriminated against legally - say some psychotic asshole goes postal at a crowded mall or a parade. You're talking potentially an order of magnitude less people killed if he only has access to semi-automatic weapons.
posted by Ryvar at 10:36 AM on June 26, 2008
Ryvar, I think he was using the more widely accepted (though erroneous) definition of assault rifle as understood in most of the U.S. rather than the technical definition of a select fire rifle or carbine.
Agreed, but the problem with the widely-accepted definition is that it's not just erroneous, it's out-and-out stupid. The black plastic pistol-grip stock and flashlight rack on an AR-15 (the most popular "assault rifle" today) make it look scary, but it still packs less firepower than many semi-automatic deer rifles. For example, in terms of firepower, I think I'd take this plus this over the AR-15. The only real drawback is magazine capacity, and that's arguably made up for by the much larger caliber.
Is this just a sop to the gun control lobby, or are lives really saved because your Mac 10 doesn't do automatic fire?
IMHO, it's the former. Nobody seems to like to mention it, but these just aren't the kinds of weapons people tend to kill each other with, fully automatic or not. Thanks to the expiration of the Assault Weapons ban, there are tons of AR-15s, Mini-14s, and other semi-auto "assault rifles" in circulation, and there are still more than a few fully operational full-autos out there, as well. Even so, the only high-profile "assault rifle" case I can think of in recent years was the DC "sniper", and he wasn't even taking more than one shot at a time!
The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides; I'd say much if not most of the remainder are crime-related (gang wars, drug dealing, robbery, etc). People typically use handguns and occasionally shotguns for crime, not rifles; a plastic stock or bayonet lug won't change that.
Besides, it's been four years since the ban expired, and the predicted "assault weapon" bloodbath simply did not happen... which, of course, means it's time for the Democrats to try and re-instate the ban! *sigh*
posted by vorfeed at 11:47 AM on June 26, 2008
Agreed, but the problem with the widely-accepted definition is that it's not just erroneous, it's out-and-out stupid. The black plastic pistol-grip stock and flashlight rack on an AR-15 (the most popular "assault rifle" today) make it look scary, but it still packs less firepower than many semi-automatic deer rifles. For example, in terms of firepower, I think I'd take this plus this over the AR-15. The only real drawback is magazine capacity, and that's arguably made up for by the much larger caliber.
Is this just a sop to the gun control lobby, or are lives really saved because your Mac 10 doesn't do automatic fire?
IMHO, it's the former. Nobody seems to like to mention it, but these just aren't the kinds of weapons people tend to kill each other with, fully automatic or not. Thanks to the expiration of the Assault Weapons ban, there are tons of AR-15s, Mini-14s, and other semi-auto "assault rifles" in circulation, and there are still more than a few fully operational full-autos out there, as well. Even so, the only high-profile "assault rifle" case I can think of in recent years was the DC "sniper", and he wasn't even taking more than one shot at a time!
The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides; I'd say much if not most of the remainder are crime-related (gang wars, drug dealing, robbery, etc). People typically use handguns and occasionally shotguns for crime, not rifles; a plastic stock or bayonet lug won't change that.
Besides, it's been four years since the ban expired, and the predicted "assault weapon" bloodbath simply did not happen... which, of course, means it's time for the Democrats to try and re-instate the ban! *sigh*
posted by vorfeed at 11:47 AM on June 26, 2008
PeterMcDermott, you need to make your way to Flagstaff, Arizona, where you can visit a store that sells guns, ammo, booze, & porn and they have a drive-thru window.
(waves tiny American flag while saluting as tear streams down cheek)
posted by Challahtronix at 12:23 PM on June 26, 2008 [2 favorites]
(waves tiny American flag while saluting as tear streams down cheek)
posted by Challahtronix at 12:23 PM on June 26, 2008 [2 favorites]
Thanks for your explanations, guys. I've always fancied one of those automatic rifles. The Heckler and Koch jobs that the British police sometimes wander around with look like a beautifully engineered piece of hardware. While I'm quite happy that the general population here doesn't have access to them, as an object of techno-lust, I can totally see the appeal.
Kicks my Leatherman's ass completely.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:23 PM on June 26, 2008
Kicks my Leatherman's ass completely.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:23 PM on June 26, 2008
Glad to see we're talking about gun control in the U.S. That was exactly the message these guys were trying to get across.
I actually just popped in to say I think Current TV does a hell of a lot of cool stuff.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:38 PM on June 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
I actually just popped in to say I think Current TV does a hell of a lot of cool stuff.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:38 PM on June 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
When I go out to the southern California desert to go hunting the wily beer can, I often see people with lots of AR-15s.
They have similar prey as us kids with a couple of handguns an a .22 rifle, they just spend more on ammo and look a bit scarier.
And people out there are generally pretty polite. . .
posted by flaterik at 2:06 PM on June 26, 2008
They have similar prey as us kids with a couple of handguns an a .22 rifle, they just spend more on ammo and look a bit scarier.
And people out there are generally pretty polite. . .
posted by flaterik at 2:06 PM on June 26, 2008
The Heckler and Koch jobs that the British police sometimes wander around with look like a beautifully engineered piece of hardware.
They are indeed. H&K's engineering team was brought in to correct problems with the SA80 British Assault rifle, and then they redesigned the upper receiver on the M4. Unfortunately, despite demonstrably improved reliability, the US military hasn't embraced the changes.
The guts of my USP is one of my favorite things to show people when I'm trying to describe the elegance of firearms engineering.
posted by quin at 3:33 PM on June 26, 2008
They are indeed. H&K's engineering team was brought in to correct problems with the SA80 British Assault rifle, and then they redesigned the upper receiver on the M4. Unfortunately, despite demonstrably improved reliability, the US military hasn't embraced the changes.
The guts of my USP is one of my favorite things to show people when I'm trying to describe the elegance of firearms engineering.
posted by quin at 3:33 PM on June 26, 2008
Also, why doesn't that whole need for a well armed militia/right to bear arms thing apply to the Mogadishuns? I suspect they're at least as likely to have an oppressive government that tries to strip them of their right as America is?
This is a joke, right? Somalia doesn't have a government. At least, not one that's capable of stripping anybody of their rights.
posted by number9dream at 6:18 PM on June 26, 2008
This is a joke, right? Somalia doesn't have a government. At least, not one that's capable of stripping anybody of their rights.
posted by number9dream at 6:18 PM on June 26, 2008
Glad to see we're talking about gun control in the U.S. That was exactly the message these guys were trying to get across.
Huh? The film was about Somalia. I've just watched it, and I don't see where gun control in the US had anything whatsoever to do with it. Far as I could tell, they had no "message". They are incredibly intrepid journalists, who went to this very dangerous place of Mogadishu, and bring back a very rare glimpse of it. Gun control in America wasn't mentioned, wasn't alluded to, wasn't even hinted at. But, typically for threads about Africa, the discussion here almost immediately turned into one about the USA. This happens with predictable (and wearisome) frequency, actually.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:41 PM on June 26, 2008
Huh? The film was about Somalia. I've just watched it, and I don't see where gun control in the US had anything whatsoever to do with it. Far as I could tell, they had no "message". They are incredibly intrepid journalists, who went to this very dangerous place of Mogadishu, and bring back a very rare glimpse of it. Gun control in America wasn't mentioned, wasn't alluded to, wasn't even hinted at. But, typically for threads about Africa, the discussion here almost immediately turned into one about the USA. This happens with predictable (and wearisome) frequency, actually.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:41 PM on June 26, 2008
To clarify, when I said above that I'd just watched it, I meant the first link (Mogadishu Madness), which I highly recommend. I hadn't yet seen the gun-market one. Nonetheless, upon watching that one, I still don't see why you'd say that gun control in the US was "exactly the message" these guys were trying to get across.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:55 PM on June 26, 2008
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:55 PM on June 26, 2008
Huh? The film was about Somalia
Dude, you've been in Japan too long. It looks like your sarcasm detector's burnt out. You should have it looked at next time you're at home.
posted by whatzit at 8:21 PM on June 26, 2008
Dude, you've been in Japan too long. It looks like your sarcasm detector's burnt out. You should have it looked at next time you're at home.
posted by whatzit at 8:21 PM on June 26, 2008
It looks like your sarcasm detector's burnt out.
Damn, you know, I hate to admit it, but I think you're right. I spent 11 years in the sarcasm capitol of the world, but 13 years now in the saracasm wasteland of Japan has seriously debilitated me. Sorry about that, Slarty Bartfast.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:32 PM on June 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
Damn, you know, I hate to admit it, but I think you're right. I spent 11 years in the sarcasm capitol of the world, but 13 years now in the saracasm wasteland of Japan has seriously debilitated me. Sorry about that, Slarty Bartfast.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:32 PM on June 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
flapjax,
The Ethiopian invasion of Somalia was encouraged by the American government. American troops have bombed targets in Somalia. You see, the US has decided that the Somali Supreme Islamic Courts Council = Al Qaeda...
I agree that most of the above discussion (guns: awesome!) is off topic, but discussing the role of the US in shaping current Somali politics is not.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:24 AM on June 27, 2008
The Ethiopian invasion of Somalia was encouraged by the American government. American troops have bombed targets in Somalia. You see, the US has decided that the Somali Supreme Islamic Courts Council = Al Qaeda...
I agree that most of the above discussion (guns: awesome!) is off topic, but discussing the role of the US in shaping current Somali politics is not.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:24 AM on June 27, 2008
justsomebody,
You needn't have included the condescending "you see". I am not unaware of recent US involvement in the affairs of Somalia. But I don't see a single comment in this thread which is "discussing the role of the US in shaping current Somali politics". So, you see, that's not what's been going on here, and therefore was not what I was referring to in my earlier comment.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:46 AM on June 27, 2008
You needn't have included the condescending "you see". I am not unaware of recent US involvement in the affairs of Somalia. But I don't see a single comment in this thread which is "discussing the role of the US in shaping current Somali politics". So, you see, that's not what's been going on here, and therefore was not what I was referring to in my earlier comment.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:46 AM on June 27, 2008
Flapjax,
Sorry -- the condescension in my post was aimed at the American government, not at you. (seeing all fundamentalist Muslims as being part of one nasty terrorist group is not at all productive) Clearly there was something wrong with the tone of my post since it seems to have it ended up sounding like an insult, which was not my intent.
Presumably there are some people out there who don't know about American involvement in Ethiopia -- I'm glad to hear that you're not one of them. Since no one else had mentioned American involvement in Somalia in the thread, I thought (and still think) that it was worth mentioning.
Just to avoid the possibility of initiating a second flamewar (see, this is why I shouldn't post late at night), let me say that despite the fact that I would never want to own a gun I share PeterMcDermott's gun technolust. My dream car is a ZSU-23-4.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:23 PM on June 27, 2008
Sorry -- the condescension in my post was aimed at the American government, not at you. (seeing all fundamentalist Muslims as being part of one nasty terrorist group is not at all productive) Clearly there was something wrong with the tone of my post since it seems to have it ended up sounding like an insult, which was not my intent.
Presumably there are some people out there who don't know about American involvement in Ethiopia -- I'm glad to hear that you're not one of them. Since no one else had mentioned American involvement in Somalia in the thread, I thought (and still think) that it was worth mentioning.
Just to avoid the possibility of initiating a second flamewar (see, this is why I shouldn't post late at night), let me say that despite the fact that I would never want to own a gun I share PeterMcDermott's gun technolust. My dream car is a ZSU-23-4.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:23 PM on June 27, 2008
Walmart only sells rifles and shotguns, and not even that in many states. (Except Alaska they sell handguns for some reason.)
Bears.
posted by rokusan at 9:19 PM on June 27, 2008
Bears.
posted by rokusan at 9:19 PM on June 27, 2008
Flagstaff, Arizona, where you can visit a store that sells guns, ammo, booze, & porn and they have a drive-thru window.
Link???
posted by rokusan at 9:20 PM on June 27, 2008
Link???
posted by rokusan at 9:20 PM on June 27, 2008
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They film one of city street gun markets to show how easy it is to buy an AK-47, a machine gun or even RPG launcher.
See, this is why you need a libertarian goveremnt, so you can have that kind of market freedom.
posted by Artw at 8:28 AM on June 26, 2008