Now, here's the way I work...

June 26, 2008 11:58 PM

Meet Dmitri.He's a complete catch. Women approach him 6-7 times a day.
posted by miss lynnster (178 comments total)

I must say, I don't really care for this fellow.
Of course, I am a timid woman. And psychologically abnormal. I may even have been abused as a child. I leave it up to some worthier elegante to reel in this catch.

now THAT'S a chicago accent. I can actually hear his bushy cop 'stache.
posted by maryh at 12:11 AM on June 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

If you don't call me by 3.00pm tomorrow, Miss Lynnster, you can lose my number. Who posts a FPP on Metafilter, and then doesn't sleep with every single one of the fedora-sporting stalkers that respond in the thread?

I'm a catch ferchrist's sake. I make good money, I'm great in bed, I hit on women in the street and they *all* do my bidding.

Look into the eyes, look into the eyes. When I snap my fingers, you will be wake up as though nothing has happened, but you will be completely under my control. You will favourite every single one of my posts, and you will post an Askme looking for suggestions as to the best way of persuading me to fall in love with you. Sleepy, sleepy, sleepy...

*snap*

Don't forget what I said now. 3.00pm tomorrow.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:15 AM on June 27, 2008 [3 favorites]

Now, Miss Lynnster, I figure I'd better leave you a detailed comment and explain why I favorited you. I'm a MeFite, I have no trouble finding FPPs to read, people post FPPs for me maybe 6, 7 times a day, but I'm ver particular about what I like to read. Your FPP is extremely elegant. I couldn't take my eyes off of it and your Contacts were very jealous, so even if they say they weren't, they were very envious of the fact that I favorited your FPP, and I was very taken by your FPP.
posted by davejay at 12:16 AM on June 27, 2008 [22 favorites]

Uh...yeah....Gawker and all that
posted by GavinR at 12:16 AM on June 27, 2008

nobody says "call me", hands a person a business card, and then doesn't return calls.

Wait, I thought everybody did that. Except people without business cards; they write their number on the back of your hand, then don't return calls.
posted by davejay at 12:18 AM on June 27, 2008 [5 favorites]

I dunno why, but I suspect shenanigans.
posted by dersins at 12:25 AM on June 27, 2008

Some men trawl for women, this guy trolls for women.
posted by maryh at 12:31 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Lame assed post about a lame assed hoax.

Get the hook.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:33 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Dmitri the Lover and The Toronto Real Men.
posted by stavrogin at 12:37 AM on June 27, 2008

I don't buy it. It's too "I got this from a friend of a friend" to not be a hoax.
posted by kanewai at 12:40 AM on June 27, 2008

Pepsi Blue Balls.
posted by tula at 12:59 AM on June 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

Gah. Face now set in permanent cringe. Will send bill to miss lynster.
posted by orthogonality at 1:09 AM on June 27, 2008

CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE COMMENT:

A) This has to be fake.*

B) Oh, why isn't he being punched in the mouth repeatedly?

C) A and B.


*speaking as someone who fell for a virus recently. Guh.
posted by loquacious at 1:15 AM on June 27, 2008

I'd hit it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:17 AM on June 27, 2008 [3 favorites]

NOOOOOOOOOOO!
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:32 AM on June 27, 2008

Yet another self-styled "Pick Up Artist". I remember reading about him on Metachat quite a while ago and someone just mentioned this link to me at a dinner party earlier this evening. Quite weird to see him pop up here on the blue.

He seems more like the kind of guy who propositions every woman he meets with the expectation that at least one out of the many he asks will relent. It also seems that he's trying to pimp his services as a pick up artist guru, so click on the following links at your own peril.

Official web site of Dmitri The Lover.
Article in the Eye.
The Metachat thread where one Mefite describes her online personals encounter with this fellow..
And, most importantly, Dimitri the Lover's very own Livejournal.
posted by ooga_booga at 1:36 AM on June 27, 2008 [3 favorites]

I can actually hear his bushy cop 'stache.

Ladies, I only wear this bushy cop 'stache because I sure do love cunnilingus.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:40 AM on June 27, 2008

One of my friend's from work and her friend were out one night in the SF Marina district and were hanging outside of the bars trying to find a cab. One of the girl's, Olga...

Correction: One of the girl's Olgum. Two of the girl's Olga.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:52 AM on June 27, 2008 [20 favorites]

Each subsequent Dimitri the Lover link that is posted only confuses me further. I want to call shenanigans, cuz really, who talks and acts like that? It crosses out of "creepy" and into pathology just a few paragraphs into that frightening livejournal. On the other hand, he seems to have spent an awful lot of time on this persona - above and beyond the average prank, to be sure.

Either way, the entertainment and the ick values are pretty high.
posted by EatTheWeak at 2:32 AM on June 27, 2008

I was laughing at this until I read his livejournal. Ooga_booga linked it upthread.

Listen to me. Do not read this man's livejournal. Please take my word for it. Do not read the horrible things I am about to quote. Skip this comment entirely.

My secret? Using criteria I developed over many years, I chose to only approach women which displayed a certain style and gait indicative of a SLUT DESPERATE FOR COMPANIONSHIP, then customized my opening lines to each slut's unique psychological profile.

Oh god you are reading this. I told you not to read this. Stop right now. For the love of christ, no matter what you do, do not read this horrid coup de grâce.

I FULFILLED EVERY MAN’S FANTASY!

Yes, I’ve had mother/daughter threesomes twice and sister/sister threesomes half a dozen times, with full blown incest every time.

Lord I swear he goes on. He describes the incest. I cannot bring myself to quote it here. It is so bad. There is mothers and daughters and semen and everything.

It is extremely bad. There are certain extremely bad things in this world, and this man is one of those things.
posted by churl at 2:40 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

That stuff about him being a doctor who was disbarred for inappropriate conduct is just insane. I mean doctors generally *are* thought of as being a catch. Presumably, unless he looks like that Therapy Cat that doesn't have a face, he wouldn't have any trouble getting dates, so why cross those professional boundaries unless you're sexually compulsive?

If the doctor stuff is true, then perhaps the high IQ stuff is true as well? There's a definite Aspergic quality to his whole schtick. I mean, if he's as smart as he thinks/says he is, then now come he can't figure out how genuinely repellant he comes across to anybody who isn't totally and utterly desperate? And probably to those as well?

Perhaps those geeks who inappropriately embrace the aspergic label as an explanation for their social incompetence should be getting worried when they see this stuff. Women might start associating you with Dmitri the Lover, and then you'll be even worse off than simply being dismissed as being a common-or-garden geek.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:47 AM on June 27, 2008

"passive-aggressive personality disorder, you should look it up."

WE HAVE A WINNER!

I AWARD DIMITRI THE FIRST ANNUAL UBUROIVAS AWARD FOR OUTSTANDING ACHIEVEMENT IN THE FIELD OF AWESOME SELF-REFERENTIAL IRONIC HUMOUR!

(either that, or he's a clueless fucktard, i'm not sure which)
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:48 AM on June 27, 2008 [4 favorites]

I look at women as “tri-orificed beings”

What, you let the nostrils and the ear-holes go to waste?

Amateur!
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:49 AM on June 27, 2008 [6 favorites]

I'm a catch
There's nothing wrong with me

Yeah... you keep telling yourself that dude.

Bahh.
posted by nudar at 2:50 AM on June 27, 2008

Viral promotion for new Sacha Baron Cohen character.
posted by Phanx at 2:55 AM on June 27, 2008 [8 favorites]

Does anyone else feel sorry for the guy? The way he comes across is almost at a mentally ill level of social ineptness. He has probably had a really hard time connecting with people his entire life, and it seems unlikely that he will ever have a emotionally fulfilling relationship with anyone.

Well, that's my pop psychology analysis of the guy at least. I guess I could just call him a creeper and move on. Either way, sad. Just sad.
posted by wigglin at 3:03 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

i'm on the fence whether Phanx or wigglin are correct.

it can only be one or the other.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:07 AM on June 27, 2008

from the MetaChat thread (ok, maybe somebody signed up as him for a joke, but the shtick is the same):

"Chemistry" is pure phermones. If you don't believe it, try to meet a guy like me for a coffee and compare him to the "nice guys" with hidden agendas. I guarantee that it will be an eye opener.

I sure hope so. In particular, I expect that with your medical degree & 170 IQ you will explain to me why - if chemistry is pure phermones (sic) - any of the pickup techniques you pimp online are worth a cent? Or why you bother spamming girls on their phones & dating accounts, if it all comes down to how you 'smell' to our pheromone receptors?

Surely you could bypass all that spammy bullshit & all the transparent 'psychology' therein & just walk through a shopping mall without having showered for a week & have the women jump you? That is what you're saying, right? Or do you just use fancy-sounding terms that you don't actually understand, yet alone know how to spell?
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:39 AM on June 27, 2008

Let this not be viral marketing.
posted by crapmatic at 4:54 AM on June 27, 2008

What could it be viral marketing for?

Douchebag insurance?

A lesbian collective?

I hope it is viral marketing. I want to know
posted by mattoxic at 5:23 AM on June 27, 2008 [6 favorites]

I would just like to say, right here, right now, that I would not hit that. Even if I was elegant.
posted by h00py at 5:37 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Damn you hoopy!
posted by waraw at 5:53 AM on June 27, 2008

I said I wouldn't! That doesn't count, surely? Plus I'm a girl! Um.. okay, now I'm being sexist. Sorry, cooter-counters.
posted by h00py at 6:06 AM on June 27, 2008

h00py, maybe he's so hot he's making you sexist?
posted by asok at 6:17 AM on June 27, 2008 [4 favorites]

Doesn't matter h00py: Blazecock beat you to it.
posted by revgeorge at 6:20 AM on June 27, 2008

i'm a torontonian and i can assure you that this guy is 100% for real.

uborovias: repellent as it may be, the technique he recommends is entirely consistent with with "it's all pheromones" theory. basically, he's working under the assumption that all he has to do is get a girl feeling comfortable in private and she won't be able to resist him. his "method" is pretty much just to get himself into that situation as quickly as possible.
posted by 256 at 6:24 AM on June 27, 2008

Does anyone else feel sorry for the guy?

No. I'm annoyed at the way things are made off and passed as real on the Internet.
posted by Nelson at 6:31 AM on June 27, 2008

I think the part that bothered me the most was that his name is Dmitri, he's "Greek", and he has a Canadian accent. Funny stuff.
posted by wundermint at 6:32 AM on June 27, 2008

It's definitely not viral marketing, y'all. This guy's been advertising in Toronto for a few years. I had to read the link to know what we were talking about at first, but once I did it was like, "Oh, that guy."

If you find this kind of thing creepilicious you should read "The Game: Penetrating The Secret Society of Pickup Artists" by Neil Strauss -- but I must say that as a woman and a feminist I really wish I hadn't. It infuriated and in fact upset me for weeks after I finished.
posted by loiseau at 6:40 AM on June 27, 2008

If you find this kind of thing creepilicious you should read "The Game: Penetrating The Secret Society of Pickup Artists" by Neil Strauss -- but I must say that as a woman and a feminist I really wish I hadn't. It infuriated and in fact upset me for weeks after I finished.

It disturbed you that much to learn that men seek to get laid, and in some cases pull out all the stops? There's women out there who eat men just the same. It's human nature.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 6:56 AM on June 27, 2008

loiseau - if it's any consolation, this kind of juvenile bullshit upsets me as well, speaking as a man and a masculist.

as far as i could see from a quick internet skim, this pathetic dickhead will use whatever schmoozy lie or technique he can find just to 'score some pussy, mate'.

he reminds me of a guy i used to live with. a 40-something ex-advertising exec, his wife (from mid 20s onwards) divorced him, and he spent his time fucking anything that moved. no standards, no shame. same cynical approach. smart enough to be able to do it, but nowhere near smart enough for self reflection.

acknowledging that IQ is a bunch of bullshit, imagine somebody around 120 with a shitty agenda to achieve. that was him, and i swear it's this Dimitri wanker.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:59 AM on June 27, 2008

Yeah, I was going to mention "The Game" too. These guys are a dime-a-dozen.

My favorite part about that book was that toward the end all the women on the Strip had heard the lines before. I really hope these things get more popular, actually, so that at some point every single woman will be able to spot techniques like this from a mile away and then we can be done with this schtick as a society.

HEY BABY DO YOU BELIEVE IN PALM READING?
posted by saysthis at 7:00 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

(i swear it's *the same deal as with* this Dimitri wanker)
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:01 AM on June 27, 2008

You'd think these guys would be ruining their "game" be becoming so public about it. Uh oh, on the Internet, they do know you're a dog.
posted by fuse theorem at 7:08 AM on June 27, 2008

I don't know why I didn't just put my coffee down while I listened to that but now my bib overalls are covered in Ecuadorian-Sumatra-French-hazelnut roast.
posted by nola at 7:08 AM on June 27, 2008

It disturbed you that much to learn that men seek to get laid, and in some cases pull out all the stops? There's women out there who eat men just the same. It's human nature.

It's lucky, then, that human nature tends to favor men who pull out all stops because they actually like women, Christ, what an asshole

Even feminists can be charmed into bed, you know!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 7:09 AM on June 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

He appears to like attention, and he joined mecha to respond to the thread about him there, so I am predicting that he will somehow be summoned here by the mention of his name, will fork out his $5 and will respond to this thread also.
posted by goshling at 7:12 AM on June 27, 2008

Ecuadorian-Sumatra-French-hazelnut roast? that blend shows elegance. you know, i'm totally freaking awesome, like, i knock back doctorate scholarships at the Sorbonne on a daily basis, but i've just come out of a long distance relationship, like, twelve years ago, but i'm like 26 & really buff & i have a humungous 7" cock and own twenty seven shelf companies, and like, what was your name again?

*shit, i departed from the script. don't show ANY interest in them as a person, only demean them enough to make them feel priviliged to be on the receiving end of your bukkake*

(damn, did i say that aloud?)
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:18 AM on June 27, 2008

(privileged. the i was freudian)
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:19 AM on June 27, 2008

[It disturbed you that much to learn that men seek to get laid, and in some cases pull out all the stops? There's women out there who eat men just the same. It's human nature.]

It's lucky, then, that human nature tends to favor men who pull out all stops because they actually like women, Christ, what an asshole

Even feminists can be charmed into bed, you know!

I am completely lost on the tone and insinuations of this point. Is it a counter-point? Someone smarter than me help me out here...
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 7:38 AM on June 27, 2008

boy. I hope my gait looks slutty.
posted by cowbellemoo at 7:39 AM on June 27, 2008

Bizarre. I live in Toronto, but have managed to avoid hearing about this dude all this time. Damn you MetaFilter.
posted by chunking express at 7:40 AM on June 27, 2008

What could it be viral marketing for?

Douchebag insurance?

A lesbian collective?

I hope it is viral marketing. I want to know


If you go to his website he's got a bunch of "projects" (documentary, reality TV show, etc) "coming in 2009" so I think this is yet another tiresome viral. I saw this on gawker and and am disappointed to see it followed here as well.

Also, yaaah, a pickup artist with a Canadian accent, dontcha know, makes me giggle. What a hoser, eh?
posted by availablelight at 7:44 AM on June 27, 2008

You'd think these guys would be ruining their "game" be becoming so public about it. Uh oh, on the Internet, they do know you're a dog.

But they have something to sell. And you think their clientele are rooting for or against them? All publicity is good publicity.

He appears to like attention, and he joined mecha to respond to the thread about him there, so I am predicting that he will somehow be summoned here by the mention of his name, will fork out his $5 and will respond to this thread also.

Common sense would suggest otherwise, but he isn't the most socially-astute guy out there, so I wouldn't be surprised.

He will get reamed. He already comes off as a desperate wanker that will spend more time on a call leaving messages than in the time he talked face-to-face with the woman. It's embarrassing. He probably violated several dozen principles of the "techniques" he espouses.

The funniest part for me is the radio interview he leaves on his homepage. He admits he has low standards in women, and the best he could get was a long-distance relationship from some woman he met on the internet. The radio DJs go on to mock him. And this is the shining endorsement he leaves for people to hear? I honestly thought it was a joke.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 7:47 AM on June 27, 2008

Could somebody please please introduce Dimitri to Aleksey Vayner? I'm sure they'd hit it off right away, then go around bench pressing the shit out of things, running charities and corporations, diagnosing passive-aggressive personality disorder, solving mysteries and bagging elegant women.

They never play games, because nothing is impossible.

Let the romance begin.
posted by cog_nate at 7:51 AM on June 27, 2008

"there's nothing wrong with me"

When I was still a part of the dating scene, I used this tactic all the time. I would approach a good looking young lady and say "I'm not contagious. When we get naked, it may look a little red and blotchy, but don't worry, you won't catch anything. Other than pleasure, naturally. That's just a given. I mean, I'm all kinds of awesome, and I'm not disease ridden. So you'll have nothing to worry about when we are knocking boots later. I'm not a serial killer either. So there is no chance that I will murder you and have sex repeatedly with your corpse, no matter how attractive you may look with all the blood drained out of you. Out of curiosity, how far do you live from the river? Hey, do you have a roommate half as attractive as you? Because I sure do love threesomes. By the way, what's your name?"

For some reason, girls would never call me back. I bet it they were afraid their roommates would see me and try to steal me away. In fact, I'm sure that's it.
posted by quin at 8:01 AM on June 27, 2008

Elegant women are very rare. I'm Greek.

He sounds like Markov Filter sometimes.
posted by rmless at 8:04 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ecuadorian-Sumatra-French-hazelnut roast? That's just wrong in so many ways.

* Mixing Ecuadorian and Sumatra? Why? If you know the origins why not have them separately and enjoy the distinct differences? I mean, the Ecuador is probably a pretty balanced Central American cup, and the Sumatra would have more of a funky rustic character. So you've basically just made diluted Sumatra. The real reason that coffee is blended is to cover up defects in the source lots. Take a hopelessly bland Ecuador and mix it with a baggy, moldy last-year's Sumatra and you get something you can maybe serve at the truckstop without Butch and Bubba walking out in disgust.

* And then French roasted it, like every other Starbucks-influenced 'tard who thinks "burnt" is the way Good Coffee tastes. If you wanted to burn it, why not use the cheapest shit you could find? Oh wait. See above. You did. That's why.

* And as if it weren't already ruined twice, you sprayed some chemical extract shit on it so it doesn't smell like coffee anymore. Not that it did, after you burned it, but maybe there'd be a hint left. But not after you mask it with your air freshener spray. PROTIP: Lysol's cheaper than hazelnut extract, and the effect is the same. Perhaps the hazelnut spray is to mask the Lysol residue.

In any case, you should be grateful. Staining overalls brown is the optimal use for that swill.
posted by rusty at 8:05 AM on June 27, 2008 [12 favorites]

You know what a terrible job would be? Having to do the psychological forensics on how a person gets like this, sifting through the awful banal garbage dump of their history. That having been said I'd probably love to watch a PBS Nova type show that breaks down the biomechanics of the gait of a slut. What is that? Knock-kneed? Tip-toe? Kinda a chicken walk type of thing?

"Ah, the spacing of the steps, skittish but determined, a mincing wobbly gait, the fragments of leopard print material, see here a Virginia Slim butt with brown lipstick traces. A slut Watson, our culprit is a slut!"
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:14 AM on June 27, 2008

"now THAT'S a chicago accent. I can actually hear his bushy cop 'stache."

Actually it's a textbook Toronto accent, which is a little different from the stereotypical Canuck accent. It's the Chicago-style abruptness combined with the Hoser-style pronunciations that makes it Toronto.

...and what a douchebag!
posted by weezy at 8:17 AM on June 27, 2008

rusty: i never say this kind of thing, but your taste in coffee is exquisite. i should know - i'm mongolian, and we are passionate about our coffee. do you dare memail me, you cowardly asexual piece of shit? i can understand if you're a jehova's witness with repulsive tumours cascading down your face - in which case, fuck off and die because I don't work that way - but otherwise, what the hell is wrong with you if you refuse to bathe in my golden shower? xxxoooxxx dimitrithelover.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:22 AM on June 27, 2008 [5 favorites]

rusty I can only hope you makin' a joke about coffee too. If not I should come clean and tell you, I don't really know what it was I was drinking, except that it was dark and hot and made of coffee.
posted by nola at 8:22 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where, uh, Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums.
posted by popcassady at 8:26 AM on June 27, 2008 [11 favorites]

Oh gaaaaawwwd. I'm the MeChazen who posted about my Lavalife (AND Plenty of Fish) encounter with this... this... person. In my many varied experiences with online dating, this really was one for the books. His weirdly entrepreneurial, astoundingly egotistical, and misogynist approach to dating left me petrified. I'd mostly managed to block it from my memory, until I saw this thread.
posted by orange swan at 8:32 AM on June 27, 2008 [3 favorites]

orange swan- How did he know to approach you?
He can't see your slutty gait from the internets... Or did he ask you to post a video of you walking by?
posted by rmless at 8:36 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well it sounds like it is viral marketing, wherein the product is sex with Dimitri. Or does it need to be ironic and insincere to be considered viral?
posted by delmoi at 8:36 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

I refuse to believe this dude is a playa. I've known playas, I don't understand their kind, but have met them on quite a few occasions, and have been told that one of the top tenets of their belief-system is to never leave a voice-message, much less two. Apparently, such an act of banal servitude messes up their game quite a bit or some such thing.

Instead, they leave SMS'es.
posted by the cydonian at 8:46 AM on June 27, 2008

Yelling "viral!" seems to be the new knee-jerk to anything that defies comprehension, which is pretty stupid considering how avant-garde most postmodern artforms are.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 8:47 AM on June 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

I love dogs, chocolate, food, and chiropractors.

He's a surrealist.
posted by xod at 8:48 AM on June 27, 2008

He's been doing this for a very long time. I remember seeing his pink posters tacked to telephone poles when I first moved to Toronto back in 1992.
posted by orange swan at 9:01 AM on June 27, 2008

Dmitri used to post in the tor.eats USENET newsgroup... if you do a search for "Dmitri the Greek Stud" you can check out some of his restaurant reviews.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 9:04 AM on June 27, 2008

It's viral in the sense that it makes me want to throw up, like the virus that's been going around my office recently.
posted by rmless at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2008

If you go to his website he's got a bunch of "projects" (documentary, reality TV show, etc) "coming in 2009" so I think this is yet another tiresome viral.

So far I can't find any evidence that these projects are in any stage of production. This guy has been trying hard for a long time with very poor results, so I'd be shocked to find any production company behind any of his dorky ideas. Unless someone wants to use him for an unwitting train wreck/comedy show. Like an old guy version of Keys to the VIP.

Anyway, I apologize if someone has already posted this link, as I didn't have time to read the whole thread but just had to jump in, since I have run into this douche several times over the last few years. His real name is James Sears and he really was a doctor, stripped of his license for sexual impropriety. I cannot believe anyone falls for his bullshit in person, because from 100 paces he reeks of crazy old guy.
posted by zarah at 9:12 AM on June 27, 2008

Listen folks, we shouldn't be so snarky. If we can attract his 170 IQ over here and have him do the IQ test, we might finally be able to make Metafilter the website with the highest IQ!
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:19 AM on June 27, 2008

I notice you're doing your part, Peter.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 9:32 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Here is a look inside one of his classes.
posted by quin at 9:36 AM on June 27, 2008

Even feminists can be charmed into bed, you know!

Really!? That's very intriguing. Tell me more...
posted by msalt at 9:40 AM on June 27, 2008

Hey guys. I'm back. What did I miss? I was outside... some guy in a furry hat and puka shells told me there was an insane fight going on out there. Something about two girls pulling eachother's hair and stuff. Crazy! But then when I went out there, I didn't see anything. Weird. Guess I missed all the action. Damn.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:50 AM on June 27, 2008 [3 favorites]

Even feminists can be charmed into bed, you know!

Lies! All lies! Huh... what are we talking about again?
posted by Vindaloo at 9:56 AM on June 27, 2008

Hey guys. I'm back. What did I miss? I was outside... some guy in a furry hat and puka shells told me there was an insane fight going on out there. Something about two girls pulling eachother's hair and stuff. Crazy! But then when I went out there, I didn't see anything. Weird. Guess I missed all the action. Damn.

You really missed something. They fought over whether it's better to floss or brush first.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 10:04 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Listen folks, we shouldn't be so snarky.

That sounds what like some smart city fellar talk. Get 'im boys!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:04 AM on June 27, 2008

I notice you're doing your part

Nice diagram. Is it just me, or does that site appear to be built by the same guys that created that Crates game?
posted by effbot at 10:12 AM on June 27, 2008

I die a little inside when I think that anyone could possibly fall for his bullshit.
posted by Caduceus at 10:16 AM on June 27, 2008

Even feminists can be charmed into bed, you know!

Really!? That's very intriguing. Tell me more...

You had me at "Really!?..." msalt:)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 10:28 AM on June 27, 2008

Yeah, but the fedora is so hard to resist.
posted by lunit at 10:33 AM on June 27, 2008

Oh my God, this guy.. wow. I'm honestly surprised that he's still pulling the same old shtick.

As for The Game (which you just lost, btw), I'd only ever heard about it until recently, had never seen it in action.

Then a couple weeks ago I was heading home from seeing Sex and the City, and ended up sitting on the subway opposite these two guys. They were talking about something--it seemed like business talk at first, but then I realized they were talking about the Game. They were going on and on about "I used all seven of my opens" and a whole bunch more BS.

It was kind of sad. I mean, first that they want to get girls into bed with them through manipulation rather than honesty, which just seems deeply weird to me. Second because they were decent-looking guys. Well.. correction: one was decent-looking, nothing to write home about, but nothing to sneeze at. The other was so spectacularly gorgeous in a wholesome-boy-next-door-with-a-glint-in-his-eye kind of way that I was frankly astonished that he would ever need to do anything other than say "Hi" to get more ass than a toilet seat.

I mean, I can understand--I guess--when you're an average-looking guy, or below average, or whatnot. The human desire to get laid is incredibly strong, and of course people will do pretty much anything to get some. Which doesn't do anything to change the sleaze factor of this--sex as a competitive sport, rather than as something fun--nor does it answer the question of why you would rather use Jedi mind tricks to get someone into bed. I mean really.. pay for a professional. It's more honest, at least. But when you are stunningly good-looking, it just makes absolutely no sense at all.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:37 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

I die a little inside when I think that anyone could possibly fall for his bullshit.

There are lots of gullible people out there. And lonely people. And sad people. And horny people. etc.
posted by chunking express at 10:37 AM on June 27, 2008

What the hell? There's nothing wrong with fedoras. How did fedoras even enter this conversation?
posted by Caduceus at 10:42 AM on June 27, 2008

Caduceus, that's a reference to an epic-fail AskMe thread from a few months ago.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:49 AM on June 27, 2008

Yelling "viral!" seems to be the new knee-jerk to anything that defies comprehension, which is pretty stupid considering how avant-garde most postmodern artforms are.

Because we're sick and tired of everything cool, interesting or just plain bizarre turning out to be an ad.

"It was crazy! I was walking home and saw a giraffe in the middle of the street smoking a joint while blind hobos danced the jitterbug around him."

"Oh, that. They're introducing the McWaffle".
posted by Gary at 10:53 AM on June 27, 2008 [32 favorites]

I've said similar things before, but if manipulation and lack of honesty when it comes to getting someone to date/mate with you is bad for men to do, carefully examine the magazines in the checkout aisle at a grocery store. No, skip the Home & Garden and the celebrity rags, check out the ones with makeup tips (honest?) and the "10 Ways to Make Him ..." checklists. Granted, I've only seen a few episodes of Sex in the City, but I don't recall any of the women showing at a first date without any makeup on, playing it straight with the guys, and breaking wind when they feel the urge. Maybe I missed that one.

You can call it "putting your best foot forward" or you can call it Jedi mind tricks (I am the droid you're looking for, baby!), but attracting someone has long been about being less than perfectly truthful for everyone who isn't completely gorgeous, brilliant, charming, and overloaded with cash. Lots of sins of omission and manipulation. If it's good for the goose, I see no reason why the gander cannot do the same.

This guy's only crime is that he's gloriously unsubtle and floats somewhere between comical and repellent. This is partially him, and partially because this current phase of the Pick-Up Artist hasn't matured and become so commonplace that it is as invisible as foundation, high heels, and a touch of rouge. That and apparently deceiving someone for *gasp* sex is somehow more sleazy than getting a guy to "commit" to "where the relationship is going" (translation: it's going to the altar, then the maternity ward, and then the grave. The question is never truly where only if and when).
posted by adipocere at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Because we're sick and tired of everything cool, interesting or just plain bizarre turning out to be an ad.

Agreed. Finding out that the great band Devo was just viral for a Happy Meal (video) campaign done to promote American Idol definitely ruined my day.
posted by effbot at 11:09 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

You can call it "putting your best foot forward" or you can call it Jedi mind tricks

There is a vast gulf of difference between the two. Manipulating someone into bed is, I think, fairly universally condemned as reprehensible behaviour, whatever the genders of the people involved are. Yes, people dress up when they go out on dates, they behave (hopefully) a little better. There's a difference between donig that--"best foot forward"--and using psychological trickery to get them to do so. Think of it as the difference between blatant advertising and viral marketing; the blatant advertiser is trying to sell you their product, and you know they are, so you know they are going to display it in the best possible light. The viral marketer is trying to suck you in under false pretences. And yeah, sure, the line between the two can be blurry--but the elasticity of that line doesn't mean that there aren't two very different things.

That and apparently deceiving someone for *gasp* sex is somehow more sleazy than getting a guy to "commit" to "where the relationship is going" (translation: it's going to the altar, then the maternity ward, and then the grave. The question is never truly where only if and when).

I'm really not comprehending how getting someone to commit--absent false pretences and/or shady manipulation--is sleazy in any way, shape, or form.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:14 AM on June 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

Because we're sick and tired of everything cool, interesting or just plain bizarre turning out to be an ad.

Yeah.. but it says something very clear about MeFi that even after several people--people with personal experience of this guy--have pointed out that it is not viral that other commenters keep on beating the viral drum.

What that says about MeFi is an exercise best left up to the reader.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:15 AM on June 27, 2008

Look at the douchebag, everyone. Let's do another 90 posts.
posted by Zambrano at 11:16 AM on June 27, 2008

Seconding the "What's wrong with fedoras". Why? It's a perfectly serviceable hat. :(
posted by WalterMitty at 11:19 AM on June 27, 2008

Dmitri sounds too ridiculous and to be true rather than satire, but apparently he is real (or an excellent hoax - secret member of the Yes Men?).

It disturbed you that much to learn that men seek to get laid, and in some cases pull out all the stops? There's women out there who eat men just the same. It's human nature.
...
It's lucky, then, that human nature tends to favor men who pull out all stops because they actually like women, Christ, what an asshole

Even feminists can be charmed into bed, you know!
...
I am completely lost on the tone and insinuations of this point. Is it a counter-point? Someone smarter than me help me out here...

(editor's bolding)

Eponysterical?

I think that what JT was implying was that with all of the "slut list" talk, some of these PUAs come off as not respecting women, or perhaps even being actively misogynist, i.e. getting off on manipulating or "fucking over" these women. (Admittedly, we're all likely colored by pop culture, e.g. In The Company of Men, etc. PUAs don't often get portrated in a great light (excluding RDJ, of course)).

I also think he/she was saying that evolution favors the nice guys, i.e. the ones who will respect women. I'm not positive that's true, but it's nice to think so...if you're a nice guy...or women who don't enjoy being treated "badly" (in the conventional, emotionally supportive sense).

The blogto author agrees: "So while I encourage anyone sufficiently outraged by Dimitri and his "real men" to let them know exactly how you feel, this kind of thing, like the KKK and Scientology, has no future."

(Thanks for the link, whoever posted that...)
posted by mrgrimm at 11:21 AM on June 27, 2008

Ducle et fedorum est / pro matria nooki
posted by cortex at 11:24 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

some of these PUAs come off as not respecting women,

You don't say. They all come off as not respecting women, I think; respecting a woman (or a man) means respecting their choice to get in bed with you or not without resorting to psychological manipulation to do so.

or perhaps even being actively misogynist,

Bingo. They don't like or respect women, they just want pussy. To them, a woman is just an orifice(s) to please them. Manipulate, pick up, bang, move on.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:37 AM on June 27, 2008

If you find this kind of thing creepilicious you should read "The Game: Penetrating The Secret Society of Pickup Artists" by Neil Strauss -- but I must say that as a woman and a feminist I really wish I hadn't. It infuriated and in fact upset me for weeks after I finished.

On a recommendation I read that book and was also very disturbed, but pretty soon I started reading more carefully and the book is really incredibly well written. He actually (I assume he really did all that) subjects himself to this deranged ethos in order to expose it in a way that you could never get from phone messages and self help books from these people. I've wanted to read the biography of Tom Cruise by the same author ever since.
posted by cmoj at 11:40 AM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

I mean, I can understand--I guess--when you're an average-looking guy, or below average, or whatnot. The human desire to get laid is incredibly strong,'

I don't think it's about getting laid, it's control. Insecure people can get off on suddenly reversing their perceived mating weakness with magic, whether it's middle school girls with kissing spells or 20s-ish wimpy guys with PUA books.

Much safer than facing yourself and whether you're actually an attractive person(ality).
posted by msalt at 11:42 AM on June 27, 2008

Agreed. Finding out that the great band Devo was just viral for a Happy Meal (video) campaign done to promote American Idol definitely ruined my day.

Don't blame that on Devo. They weren't even asked about it. It's probably lawsuit material.
posted by loquacious at 11:43 AM on June 27, 2008

UbuRoivas: I am so wet right now. Call me?

--

nola: It was a joke, and it wasn't. "Wasn't," in the sense that I meant every word completely. "Was," in the sense that... uh, well maybe it amused someone? So, in that sense. Or something.

But I totally meant it. Seriously.
posted by rusty at 11:46 AM on June 27, 2008

I just can't stop laughing... but its so sad ... its funny because i just read this article today:
Online Dater Douchebag

They are everywhere!!!
posted by princesspeach at 11:49 AM on June 27, 2008

The only best foot forward our boy Dmitri seems to be putting forth is the one attached to his third leg.
posted by Dr. Zira at 12:00 PM on June 27, 2008

It's probably lawsuit material.

Just being facetious, sir. And more off-topic than usual.

(For those who don't know what we're talking about, see Are We McDevo?)
posted by effbot at 12:03 PM on June 27, 2008

I don't think it's about getting laid, it's control.

Mmm, yes I suppose. Well.. I think it's control in some cases, desperate need to get laid in others, often a combination of the two.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:04 PM on June 27, 2008

I also think he/she was saying that evolution favors the nice guys, i.e. the ones who will respect women. I'm not positive that's true, but it's nice to think so..

mrgrimm - you're pretty much on track here - except "nice" can seem too wan a word for what I mean. Also, men can behave like rotters out of genuine self-preservation at times - without being anything like 'Dimitri'.

If a guy is capable of respecting a woman, he's probably halfway there. If he doesn't believe respecting a woman is even possible, he probably deserves what he gets.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2008

LOVED the Online Dater Douchebag link, princesspeach!

I think my three worst/best experiences with Lava include Dimitri. Here are the other two:

One morning a guy IM'd me this:

when do uwant to have kids and will u move to Calgary

It was all I could do not to message back, "Yes i will live in yer house and have yer babbies send me $600O plain fair."

The third "notable" guy I came across on there returned a smile I had sent him with the canned message, "I can't resist the fact that we are complete opposites."

I always tried to only use my credits on guys who seem like really good leads, and so I reviewed the guy's ad again. Hmm. I was definitely getting a slightly off vibe, maybe one of jerkiness. But... it had been so long since I'd come across anyone I wanted to spend credits on I though, why not, and so I used to the six credits to send him a neutral initial message in which I told him a little about me, asked questions about him relating to his profile, and jokingly asked him why he thought we were opposites.

The next day in my inbox I found a reply from him that said, in its entirety, "You sound shallow and I am not. You look pyschotic [sic] and I am not."

He'd blocked me from replying to his message. Basically he'd only smiled at me to encourage me to waste credits on him and to give him a chance to indulge in some drive-by assholery. He was corrrect that we were complete opposites, but wrong about the ways in which we differ.

To be fair, these three are exceptions, and most of the Lava lads I decided to meet in person seemed like quite decent people with honourable intentions. But after years of this sort of thing, I deleted my Lavalife account in April.
posted by orange swan at 12:41 PM on June 27, 2008

This happened in Toronto not SF, and it's for real. I work with a friend of the er... victim, as does the DJ on the radio show that aired the clip.
posted by howling fantods at 12:45 PM on June 27, 2008

I notice you're doing your part, Peter.

That's clearly an impersonator. When I tried, using a pseudonym, I never managed to score higher than 63.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2008

That came out wrong. The DJ is also friends with my co-worker, is what I meant.
posted by howling fantods at 12:50 PM on June 27, 2008

What the hell? There's nothing wrong with fedoras. How did fedoras even enter this conversation?
posted by Caduceus

The fedora reference is from a previous AskMe. This pinstripe and fedora-sporting wannabe ladykiller got roasted alive.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:04 PM on June 27, 2008

Here's the transcript. I did it myself.
posted by evabraunstein at 1:04 PM on June 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

Good job, evabraunstein.

Metafilter: There's nothing wrong with me.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:07 PM on June 27, 2008

Good username, too.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:17 PM on June 27, 2008

Metafilter: Let the romance begin!
posted by aftermarketradio at 1:21 PM on June 27, 2008

I mean, I can understand--I guess--when you're an average-looking guy, or below average, or whatnot.

The only dudes Ive ever known to engage in these methods have all been pretty boys. I think they're used to women throwing themselves at them when theyre younger so they go with 'the game' as they age or perhaps its just harder to meet one-night stands out of HS and college.

Something tells me that 'the game' doesnt really work at all, it just gives certain guys who dont really need the help a bit more confidence in finding easy women. You dont see unattractive guys getting away with game-like antics.

Well, ignoring guys with the kavorka of course.
posted by damn dirty ape at 1:32 PM on June 27, 2008

I think they're used to women throwing themselves at them when theyre younger so they go with 'the game' as they age or perhaps its just harder to meet one-night stands out of HS and college.

You're joking, aren't you? The reality is in fact, the exact opposite to what you describe. As you get out of high school and college, it actually becomes much easier to pick up women, not harder. You've got the divorced faction, so fewer are saving it for 'the one'. Then you've got all kinds of anxieties about being left on the shelf, biological clocks, the notion that men age more gracefully than women, etc. etc.

I'm pretty sure that the people who resort to the game type tactics aren't grouped by appearance, but by lack of confidence and lack of previous success with women. Men who know how to get on women don't lose that as they get older -- if anything, they tend to get better at it.

I suppose if there is an exception, it's probably the Jock type. Men who relied on some sort of status to attract women that they no longer have any more. They might be drawn to Game type tactics as well? But pretty boys and guys who are comfortable with women? They can always cut it.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:32 PM on June 27, 2008

Men who know how to get on women don't lose that as they get older

It's not about getting on, it's about not getting pushed off again.
posted by Grangousier at 2:38 PM on June 27, 2008

Sounds like the prototypical Metafilter poster.

Including me.
posted by dsquid at 3:22 PM on June 27, 2008

I guess I don't understand stuff like this, and the whole pick-up artist stuff, because I've never considered just going up to someone on the street and hitting on them, or even going up to someone in a bar. Maybe I'm just too timid, but every relationship I've had has followed the pattern of meeting someone who is a friend's friend or with whom I'm working, hanging out with them for increasing periods of time until mutual attraction is acknowledged. I see attractive, seemingly interesting people on the subway or in bars all the time, but- given that I have a lot of female friends who regale me with stories of creepy dudes hitting on them in the subway- it seems like the odds are a lot better for the situation to end up a joke story told over mojitos next girls night out than in twue wuv. Besides, being on a subway with a dude doing the whole, "Hey. Hey girl. Hey beautiful. God bless you. You got a man? Huh? Yeah? You got a man? You're not just sayin that because you're not interested, right? You really got a man?" routine is so awkward for everyone on there, it's like showing random pedestrians nude shots of their mothers.
posted by 235w103 at 3:43 PM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Gah, what a dick.
posted by bwg at 4:46 PM on June 27, 2008

Jezebel has a great wrap-up on his exposure.
posted by batmonkey at 4:52 PM on June 27, 2008 [3 favorites]

If this guy's for real, I bet he scores occasionally. No matter how unnatractive or weird you are, somebody out there wants to fuck you, sometimes just to be the one that does. So the key is to simply use the shotgun approach and try as often as possible. Of course, most of the time, getting laid is a fluke (at least for us guys): the woman has simply decided that she wants to have sex with someone and that you met the minnimum requirements. Your mission to not fuck up by doing something stupid or disgusting. It's that simple.
posted by jonmc at 4:56 PM on June 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

This man ruined my day. I mean it. I was doing my morning browsing, and saw this thread, and the LJ link . . . I thought it would be funny. I clicked it. God damn. There aren't, say, a number of young women gone missing from a nearby area, are there?

Other than this guy, PUAs always struck me as laughable, not frightening. They can use their pathetic, transparent roll-your-charisma technique on as many women as they want, and any woman who's in the market for goods that damaged can have them. But Dmitri seems to want something worse than simply sex; he wants to make women into his hollowed-out meat puppets. He genuinely does remind me of Paul Bernardo -- who also had an incest threesome fetish.

Okay, off to Cute Overload!
posted by Countess Elena at 5:22 PM on June 27, 2008

I must be strange: I figure that my twenty-odd years with a single woman count as much, much more success than any PUA's record. I get plenty of the sex plus I get to live with and love my very best friend forever. The idea of bagging strangers for one-night stands seems lonely and sad by comparison.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:18 PM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Actually, the 'strokes' are generally of the domain of those who get neither the long-term-relationship or the pickups.
posted by jonmc at 6:29 PM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's not about getting on, it's about not getting pushed off again.

Ick. I meant to write 'on with'. Freudian slip, obviously.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:25 PM on June 27, 2008

He apparently found military medicine boring, "which led to compulsive masturbation up to six times per day, which was accomplished by going off to the washroom in between patients," the records state.

Dmitri the self-lover.

Nice catch, Batmonkey.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:42 PM on June 27, 2008

five fresh fish said: "I get plenty of the sex plus I get to live with and love my very best friend forever. The idea of bagging strangers for one-night stands seems lonely and sad by comparison."

Yeah... well, it's nice that you feel lucky but it's pretty shitty to feel superior to people who either don't want or just can't find what you have.

If it were just a matter of putting in an order for a soulmate I would've done it. But it's not so I do what I can in its absence.
posted by loiseau at 11:45 PM on June 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

some of these PUAs come off as not respecting women,

You don't say. They all come off as not respecting women, I think; respecting a woman (or a man) means respecting their choice to get in bed with you or not without resorting to psychological manipulation to do so

I think the PUA game is zero-sum for them so "success" has to mean the woman is a loser.

or perhaps even being actively misogynist,

Bingo. They don't like or respect women, they just want pussy. To them, a woman is just an orifice(s) to please them. Manipulate, pick up, bang, move on

This. A gazillion times this.

I also think he/she was saying that evolution favors the nice guys, i.e. the ones who will respect women.

I think evolution is starting to favor the guys who fuck the most women who in turn have those guys' kids. The social stigma attached to having children out of wedlock has lessened quite a bit, in Western cultures at least, so "niceness" starts to lose out to persistence, "game", and sheer stamina. A generation or two from now, this movie will be considered a documentary.
posted by fuse theorem at 11:55 PM on June 27, 2008

Does a slutty gait give you round heels?
posted by Phanx at 1:47 AM on June 28, 2008

Yeah... well, it's nice that you feel lucky but it's pretty shitty to feel superior to people who either don't want or just can't find what you have. If it were just a matter of putting in an order for a soulmate I would've done it. But it's not so I do what I can in its absence.

It appears that you feel it is superior to have a single soulmate. Don't be chewing on my ass for expressing what you believe.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:10 AM on June 28, 2008

You were the one who said you were "much, much more successful" and that one-night stands seem to you "lonely and sad".

Of course I believe most people want to have love in their life. I certainly do. But not all people want that. Try not to judge.
posted by loiseau at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2008

Does a slutty gait give you round heels?

[worries because her heels are rounded, as opposed to say, square or triangular]
posted by orange swan at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2008

One night stands do seem to me to be lonely and sad. I'm sorry that offends you so very greatly, but it is how I feel. And it certainly seems to be how you feel about it as well.

As for judging, I think it's remarkable that you're singling out my rather innocuous comment when so many other comments in this thread are outright PUA-bashing and mockery. Against comments like a mentally ill level of social ineptness and a desperate wanker and how a person gets like this, sifting through the awful banal garbage dump of their history, it seems like your protest is a little contrived.

I am truly sorry you haven't found love, and I'm sorry you feel a need to take it out on those of us who have.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:03 AM on June 28, 2008

You are some kinda drama queen, FFF.
posted by loiseau at 11:01 AM on June 28, 2008

Group huugggggg!!!!!!
posted by miss lynnster at 11:17 AM on June 28, 2008

I'm pretty sure that the people who resort to the game type tactics aren't grouped by appearance, but by lack of confidence and lack of previous success with women.

Wow! A solid observation about these types of guys.
I'm not going to defend all the inherent subjugation of women in the B.S. these PUA guys peddle. But I don't find anything wrong or evil in what these guys do. Especially if you go over to any AskMeFi thread about relationships and there is always an overabundance of "Do what makes you happy!" answers in there.
There are plenty of people out there looking for meaningless sex, men and women.
posted by P.o.B. at 12:55 PM on June 28, 2008

h00py: I would just like to say, right here, right now, that I would not hit that. Even if I was elegant.
then I said I wouldn't! That doesn't count, surely? Plus I'm a girl! Um.. okay, now I'm being sexist. Sorry, cooter-counters.

Either way, Blazecock Pileon already made the delivery of fail for the day. As for your comment, I'm not sure whether it's the announcing, the judging, or both..

I might take the label "cooter-counters" more later, just not in this sleazy thread.
posted by Pronoiac at 1:43 PM on June 28, 2008

But I don't find anything wrong or evil in what these guys do. Especially if you go over to any AskMeFi thread about relationships and there is always an overabundance of "Do what makes you happy!" answers in there.
There are plenty of people out there looking for meaningless sex, men and women.

Except that in real life, it's around 95% men & 5% women who are looking for meaningless sex. This is what makes this crap unethical, because the entire approach is a lie:

"I don't approach many women; I chose you because you're particularly elegant" - lie. He approaches anybody who's still warm & who has a vag.

"I've just come out of a long-term, long distance relationship" - lie. The guy has no interest in relationships, and probably couldn't pull one off if his life depended on it.

"I have a 170 IQ" - yeah, pull the other one.

"I'm a doctor" - er, was a doctor, disbarred for sexually assaulting patients, apparently.

"I'm a catch" - epic lie.

Basically, the guy is playing up his relationship / marriage potential, when he has zero intention of going through with it. There are all these claims about being upfront & honest, but the approach is framed in terms of this relationship potential, when he's really saying nothing other than "hey, babe, wanna fuck?" The entire routine is a lie, and that's even without considering the blatant "negging".

This isn't just fiddling with your CV a bit. It's acting as if you earnestly want the job, when your only intention is to pilfer from the petty cash box.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:07 PM on June 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well, this guy is absolutely absurd. I can't deny that in any way. I was speaking in more of general terms about a random guy picking up The Game and trying to apply it.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:17 PM on June 28, 2008

yeh, i might try to pick up on some of these awesome techniques & give them a road test at my local pub this afternoon. *clears throat*

"by the way, that's a really nice hairdo you have; i like the way it draws attention away from your nose"

"what a beautiful dress! it's good that the supersize mart makes sexy dresses for women of your build"

I'll report back later with the results of this experiment.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:59 PM on June 28, 2008

There are plenty of people out there looking for meaningless sex, men and women.

That's not the issue. The issue is the psychological manipulation used by PUAs to get it.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:01 PM on June 28, 2008

I don't really follow. Psychological manipulation like..."witty" banter to get a woman to smile?
Whatever. If this crap gives a few guys who are down and out on themselves a little bit of courage to talk to a woman. Great.
If any of these guys came up to me telling me how women are sluts and all they are good for is one thing. Then, by all means, I'll be standing right next you telling them how full of shit they are.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:18 PM on June 28, 2008

Witty banter is one thing. Calculatedly using tricks to get someone into bed is another.

Again, see the distinction I made upthread between standard advertising and viral marketing.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:29 PM on June 28, 2008

Psychological manipulation like..."witty" banter to get a woman to smile?

But it's not witty banter at all. More than anything else, they come across like carpet salesmen in places like India or Morocco, and most of the 'banter' is formulaic & pre-scripted, most likely based on self-help books for people in sales: praise the product, flatter the buyer, make the offer 'special' and 'limited opportunity', play the buyer off against other people, talk as if the sale has already been made, turn aggressive & accusatory if the buyer starts to back down, etc.

Always with the wolf eye for the final goal, which is the only thing that matters. Fuck actually getting to know people, screw the idea of caring what they want out of the situation. It's nothing other than shitty salesmanship - the domain of used car, cellphone, real estate & insurance salesmen the world over, ie the smarmy & conceited, half-witted detritus of society.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:38 PM on June 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

The issue is the psychological manipulation used by PUAs to get it.

Um, dude, I think it's a rare occasion where a man dosen't use some level of psychological manipulation to get laid, even if it's just exaggerating one's accomplishments, pretending to be interested in something a girl wants to talk about, or simply telling someone what the want to hear. It's a matter of degree.
posted by jonmc at 4:32 PM on June 28, 2008

Not to mention, women are the Zen Fucking Jedi Masters Of The Omniverse at using sex appeal to manipulate people, so the whole 'virtue despoiled by smooth-talking ne'er-do-wells' don't play with me. Tell that shit to the tourists.
posted by jonmc at 4:36 PM on June 28, 2008

It's actually possible for a thing to be a matter of degree and still reasonably find a significantly higher degree objectionable when a lower degree isn't so much. I'd say "saying her shoes look nice" vs. "aggressively lying about your intentions" would be a good example, on that front.
posted by cortex at 4:52 PM on June 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's actually possible for a thing to be a matter of degree and still reasonably find a significantly higher degree objectionable when a lower degree isn't so much.

Sure. I'm just saying that realizing that almost none of us are pure-of-heart on this score means that maybe we should turn the righteous indignation down just a tad.
posted by jonmc at 4:54 PM on June 28, 2008

jonmc writes "Not to mention, women are the Zen Fucking Jedi Masters Of The Omniverse at using sex appeal to manipulate people, so the whole 'virtue despoiled by smooth-talking ne'er-do-wells' don't play with me. Tell that shit to the tourists."

Have you read some of his sockpuppet responses, like in the comments on this post?

Dude has some issues. Some of them are legal issues.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:56 PM on June 28, 2008

krinklyfig: this Dmipshit dosen't concern me. I was more responding to the whole 'manipulation in the name of getting laid! Gasp! Horrors!' I was hearing here. We're all adults, I think we realize that very few people are innocent on that score.
posted by jonmc at 5:01 PM on June 28, 2008

On that note, isn't there a video floating around where it shows what men and women are really saying/thinking on a date, and it translates to Man: "Sex, sex, sex!" Woman: "Money, money, money!"
posted by P.o.B. at 5:08 PM on June 28, 2008

I can honestly say I've only thought "Money, money, money!" on a date once. And that was only because I didn't feel like washing dishes in a Mexican kitchen.

I can only speak for myself, but usually if I'm on a good date I'm thinking of things that are far more interesting than money. And if I'm on a bad date, I'm usually thinking about how I'd much rather be home watching tv with my dog.
posted by miss lynnster at 6:52 PM on June 28, 2008

Interesting to trace how news breaks over the web these days.

On a bad date, I'm usually planning my escape. Extra points for the dramatic.
posted by msamye at 8:38 PM on June 28, 2008

this Dmipshit dosen't concern me. I was more responding to the whole 'manipulation in the name of getting laid! Gasp! Horrors!' I was hearing here. We're all adults, I think we realize that very few people are innocent on that score.

i hear you, jonmc. in fact, i've lost count of the number of times women have approached me, said what a catch they were - astrophysics phds and all - told me i was specially sought out because of my macho gait, then taken me home, given me around two and a half minutes of "pleasure" and then left as suddenly as they came, even though i'd hoped we were heading for a relationship & had only put up with their pathetically inept groping in the hopes of maybe walking along a beach at sunset with them one day.

it's refreshing to hear that guys act like those women, too. otherwise i would've thought i was being specifically singled out, or something.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:03 AM on June 29, 2008

Always with the wolf eye for the final goal, which is the only thing that matters. Fuck actually getting to know people, screw the idea of caring what they want out of the situation. It's nothing other than shitty salesmanship - the domain of used car, cellphone, real estate & insurance salesmen the world over, ie the smarmy & conceited, half-witted detritus of society.

This. A million times this.
posted by cereselle at 9:15 AM on June 29, 2008

Man: "Sex, sex, sex!" Woman: "Money, money, money!"

Personally, I follow the same philosophy as The Contours in such matters.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:26 AM on June 29, 2008

Life will be much easier if you follow their fashion philosophy, as you won't have to worry much about dates.
posted by miss lynnster at 1:01 PM on June 29, 2008

Ah, here it is! I don't remember it being so badly dubbed. Notice miss lynster, it was done as a comedy video.

Always with the wolf eye for the final goal, which is the only thing that matters. Fuck actually getting to know people, screw the idea of caring what they want out of the situation. It's nothing other than shitty salesmanship - the domain of used car, cellphone, real estate & insurance salesmen the world over, ie the smarmy & conceited, half-witted detritus of society.

This. A million times this.

You can paint these guys however you want, and I'm sure there are enough people who are going to take up the pitch forks and torches. But I really don't see that. For the most part, aside from guys like this Dimitri ass (which are few and far between), I believe it is more or less what I said before. It's guys who are a little shy, a little lacking on the smooth talking, and just need a little help trying to talk to women.

So they're told how to lie and how to "neg" a woman. Please explain specifically how this differs from regular playful teasing/flirting? If you're going to tell me it's the mindset, then please tell you're secrets of mind reading.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:05 PM on June 29, 2008

It would have to come down to the intentions of the particular guy, P.oB. I can see truth in what you say; I just think I'm describing the cynical end of the spectrum, whereas you're talking about the hopeful end.

It might be the difference between the pickup as an and in itself, as opposed to being a means to an end (ie becoming more comfortable, with a relationship possibly in mind), respectively.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:06 PM on June 29, 2008

Sex differences: men are generally okay with one-night stands; women generally are not.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:15 PM on June 29, 2008

While men reported feeling more content, sexually satisfied and confident after meaningless sex, women were more likely to worry about feeling used and "letting themselves down".

Some of the their reasons for the encounters were because they felt there was the possibility of a longer term relationship.

Which is exactly why I feel that many of these PUAs & their followers are probably acting unethically. If there were equal tons of guys & tons of girls out for meaningless sex, then you could put it down to a fair market exchange between consenting adults.

However, women in general are overwhelmingly not after that kind of encounter (as argued well by thehmsbeagle in FedoraFilter) which means that many who fall for the PUA ploys presumably must do so because the guys present themselves as being relationship material, when in reality they're only after a fuck.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:18 PM on June 29, 2008

please tell you're secrets of mind reading.

OK.

I'm secrets of mind reading.

Don't tell the government, please. I've seen Firestarter.
posted by dersins at 10:56 PM on June 29, 2008

men are generally okay with one-night stands; women generally are not.

Huh? That article says that just under half of women who responded felt their one night stands were a bad idea. Leaving just over half who, presumably, thought they were a perfectly fine idea.

By my math, that makes women generally OK with them as well. Or at worst, evenly divided on the issue.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:13 AM on June 30, 2008

Dmitri, if you're reading this:

Big dogs don't have to bark. If you're bragging about yourself, that means you're not entirely convinced of your own awesomeness, and you need some reassurance from other people -- it's a clear indicator of low self-esteem, hence low social value, which translates to unattractive-to-women (also to male friends)... which is pretty clear by the responses in this thread. It sounds like you're doing pretty well with women now, and that's great. But if you will simply STFU about yourself, stop trying to prove yourself, and let women discover your awesomeness on their own, your "game" will go through the roof.

But, hey, if you're happy, truly happy and fulfilled, keep doing what you're doing. My hunch is that you are not, and everybody deserves happiness. Life is short. I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for.
posted by LordSludge at 8:37 AM on June 30, 2008

re: UbuRoivas vs. jonmc

I agree with jonmc generally, but there is something a bit creepy about the PUA thing, a certain cold-heartedness at its ideological core, as if it's WRONG to actually feel for or connect with the woman/target.

Or maybe it's just this: the concept of the neg, which is closely related to playful teasing of course, can also be a conduit for mysogynistic feelings, and I think there is something about this approach that encourages that.
posted by msalt at 11:21 AM on June 30, 2008

msalt writes "I agree with jonmc generally, but there is something a bit creepy about the PUA thing, a certain cold-heartedness at its ideological core, as if it's WRONG to actually feel for or connect with the woman/target."

For me it comes down to informed consent. If everyone involved knows what's going on, even if they're lying to get there, then that's not so bad. If someone is just lying to get what he or she wants, and not everyone is in on the game, then that's more akin to using people.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:29 PM on June 30, 2008

If everyone involved knows what's going on

That's just an unrealistic expectation in most situations. If that happened, vast amounts of interactions on a day to day basis would play out between people in a totally different matter.
posted by P.o.B. at 8:42 PM on June 30, 2008

"In any interaction, there are at least six people involved: each person as they see themselves; each person as the other sees them; and each person as they really are"
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:13 PM on June 30, 2008

I agree with jonmc generally, but there is something a bit creepy about the PUA thing, a certain cold-heartedness at its ideological core, as if it's WRONG to actually feel for or connect with the woman/target.

Neil Strauss seems creepy as hell and mysogynistic to me, but David DeAngelo does good work, basically teaching men how to act right -- how to stop being needy, insecure, and passive and be men that women will be attracted to. It's a mistake to lump them all together. Mystery basically teaches men how to put on an appearance of not being insecure, which is better than nothing, but it's a sort of acting job until something *clicks* and you "get" what you're supposed to be doing. It's more of a facade than real self-esteem change. But at least it teaches that social interactions can be modeled, and it does teach a good bit about the subtle cues women are looking for.

Or maybe it's just this: the concept of the neg, which is closely related to playful teasing of course, can also be a conduit for mysogynistic feelings, and I think there is something about this approach that encourages that

A good "neg" should not be an insult, nor even playful teasing. It's a really subtle thing that says to a very attractive woman, "I'm not going to go gaga over you simply for your looks, unlike EVERY OTHER MAN you meet. I require... something more than mere physical attractiveness." An example would be talking to her less attractive friend more than her, or making eye contact with everybody else at the table but her for the first 3 minutes. A guy who throws out insult after insult is just an asshole.

Good "pickup" should be a positive experience for everybody involved. It should be two people meeting, clicking on a deep emotional level, and... whatever from there, whether a hawt one night stand or a cute story of How I Met Your Mother. If it's a negative experience for the woman, there's something wrong with the PUA's approach. And, unfortunately, that's usually the case, which gives the PUA community a bad name.

Sorry, that got long. There's just a lot of fear & loathing towards the PUA community that really isn't warranted. There are a lot of people that are just trying to help shy guys find love.
posted by LordSludge at 9:59 PM on July 1, 2008

Thanks for that, LordSludge. Your comment added some much-needed balance to my perceptions of the PUA guys. Especially this bit:

Good "pickup" should be a positive experience for everybody involved. It should be two people meeting, clicking on a deep emotional level, and... whatever from there, whether a hawt one night stand or a cute story of How I Met Your Mother. If it's a negative experience for the woman, there's something wrong with the PUA's approach.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:32 PM on July 1, 2008

And, unfortunately, that's usually the case, which gives the PUA community a bad name.

Actually, what gives the "PUA community" a bad name is that they refer to themselves as pick-up artists.

Which makes them sound like a bunch of fucking douchebags.

More specifically, the kind of douchebags who think of women as objects to be picked up rather than people to relate to.

Just, y'know, fyi.
posted by dersins at 12:54 AM on July 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

It should be two people meeting, clicking on a deep emotional level, and...

...not developing a lasting friendship and long-term relationship? On how deep an emotional level can you possibly have clicked if it's all wham, bam, thank you ma'am?

Deep emotional level appears to be the last thing on a PUA's mind.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:52 AM on July 2, 2008

what gives the "PUA community" a bad name is that they refer to themselves as pick-up artists.

Yeah, I agree, the word "pick-up" has a bad connotation -- if they called themselves "social coaches" or something.

...not developing a lasting friendship and long-term relationship? On how deep an emotional level can you possibly have clicked if it's all wham, bam, thank you ma'am?

Not much, but who says that's all guys are after? Not me. I want to fall in love. I guess I'm a greedy motherfucker. And thanks to social skills I've learned from this stuff, I'm doing that right now. Before, I was that creepy guy who couldn't even say "hello". How am I going to develop a deep, meaningful relationship if can't even fucking say hello?

You seem to think it's easy for a guy to approach a beautiful woman he has never met and he has nothing in common and start a conversation. It's just... not.
posted by LordSludge at 1:26 PM on July 2, 2008

Sorry if that came out harsh. It's just that I feel like I'm being told that the only reason I want to meet a woman is to have a one-night stand with her. That is really, really insulting.
posted by LordSludge at 2:07 PM on July 2, 2008