Skip

"This is why I carry, even in church."
July 28, 2008 11:10 AM   Subscribe

Man kills two, injures 7 others, in church shooting. Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church had "just put out a sign this week which says it welcomes gays." Link to Knoxville news. And the updates page. Greg McKendry, a 60 year old foster parent, attempted to subdue the shooter and was killed in the process. Knoxville's police chief says the man accused of a shooting that killed two people at a Tennessee church targeted the congregation because of its liberal social stance. The church sponsors the Spectrum Cafe, a meeting place for GLBT youth. A Facebook page has been created so you can express your condolences.
posted by CitizenD (266 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite

 
Well, this is what happens when you foment hatred in order to win elections.
posted by delmoi at 11:13 AM on July 28, 2008 [24 favorites]


Linda Kraeger, 61, has also died. She was a member of a different UU church in Knoxville, but attended yesterday's services at TVUU Church to see the children's production that was interrupted by the shooting.
posted by CitizenD at 11:15 AM on July 28, 2008


So sad. Perhaps in jail he'll have plenty of time to read up on that verse in the Bible - I think it says something like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
posted by contessa at 11:16 AM on July 28, 2008


"It appears that what brought him to this horrible event was his lack of being able to obtain a job, his frustration over that, and his stated hatred for the liberal movement," Knoxville Police Chief Sterling Owen IV told reporters on Monday.

Authorities also discovered a letter from the state government telling Adkisson he was having his food stamps reduced or eliminated, police said.


I just don't understand. Most conservatives I know consider food stamps part of the problem. I guess you rail against any socially liberal policy except the one that you personally need.

This story just sickens me.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:17 AM on July 28, 2008 [10 favorites]


They hate us for our freedoms.
posted by GuyZero at 11:19 AM on July 28, 2008 [11 favorites]


Couldn't find work, was on food stamps but about to lose them....and hates libruls.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I present: Irony.
posted by DU at 11:20 AM on July 28, 2008 [27 favorites]


Owen said Adkisson was apparently frustrated over being out of work and had a "stated hatred of the liberal movement."

Heh. It wasn't liberals who sent your job overseas, jackass.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:20 AM on July 28, 2008 [27 favorites]


Unitarian Universalists, fightin' the good fight. Learn more about the Welcoming Congregations.

“For centuries, the church has been a leading force against sexual minorities. It is not surprising that gay people are reluctant to reach out to the very institution that oppresses them. Yet, gay, lesbian, [transgender], and bisexual people have no less need for warmth, caring, and affirmation than anyone else who calls the liberal church their religious home. In fact, as a subculture in society gay, lesbian, [transgender], and bisexual people may need our support more than the general population.”

Solid.
posted by Greg Nog at 11:20 AM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


There's a liberal movement now?

When did that happen?
posted by kcds at 11:21 AM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]




I can't figure out if he'll be murdered in prison for shooting up a church, or celebrated for being such a militant homophobe.
posted by mullingitover at 11:21 AM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Wow, the mainstream media are totally glossing over the gay-hatred aspect of this. Can't make homophobia look bad, I guess.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:24 AM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


I have a feeling this is less rooted in political ideology and has more to do with a long-standing undiagnosed mental illness.
posted by geoff. at 11:25 AM on July 28, 2008 [16 favorites]


Couldn't find work, was on food stamps but about to lose them....and hates libruls.

I'm only surprised he didn't have his own TV show.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:26 AM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


So sad. Perhaps in jail he'll have plenty of time to read up on that verse in the Bible - I think it says something like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

How about "thou shalt not kill." Should be easy to find in the index.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:26 AM on July 28, 2008 [8 favorites]


I have a feeling this is less rooted in political ideology and has more to do with a long-standing undiagnosed mental illness.

That also sums up this nation's last eight years.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:27 AM on July 28, 2008 [60 favorites]


"This is why I carry, even in church."

This is why I left America - to live in a country where people aren't permitted to walk around armed. I do not call it freedom when I have to live around unstable, cowardly, fearful people who have to carry a gun to go to church.

If a man cannot defend himself with just his brain and fists, he ain't no man.
posted by three blind mice at 11:28 AM on July 28, 2008 [29 favorites]


There's a liberal movement now?

When did that happen?
posted by kcds at 1:21 PM on July 28 [+] [!]


About 10am. A little earlier if I eat granola for breakfast.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 11:28 AM on July 28, 2008 [20 favorites]


What geoff said. Also is this not still all in the "wild speculation" phase?

Videogames, I tell you. It was videogames that did it...
posted by Artw at 11:28 AM on July 28, 2008


This hits way too close to home for me. I grew up in a small UU church in the south, where the congregation is heavily locally involved in civil rights--- poverty, racism, and gay issues. The random aspect is scary, but even more scary is the fact that this was specifically an attack on what we stand for, and that it could have been another wacko just a few hundred miles away hitting literally close to home.

To say that someone/something is "in my thoughts" is cliche, but I can hardly think of anything else since I heard.
posted by supercres at 11:30 AM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Among the wonderful things I learned from the blog of a former attendee of this church, now a Christian who happens to be a conservative ideologue (as opposed to "conservative Christian," which she calls herself--but I see nothing on her blog about conservative vs. liberal or whatever doctrinal disputes, just politics):


Perhaps this is a little inappropriate so soon after this happened...but here goes:

Just thinking that if this had been a mosque, that instead of a man stepping in front of the gunman to protect women and children, that one of those poor kids would have been used as a shield, and then paraded around as a martyr.

Just sayin'.


Also:

Brian,

You can carry a firearm to church in Tennessee if you have a carry permit. Unfortunately, the Unitarian Church promotes gun-control.


Is this an auto-written blog, based on posts at Little Green Footballs? I don't know what to make of this, but I'm thinking "symptom of a larger social problem(s), possibly correlated to violence in an indirect fashion."
posted by raysmj at 11:32 AM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


My mother is a Unitarian Universalist minister in a tiny, extremely conservative city. She feels (rightly) that it is her responsiblity to present an active, visible, positive, legitimate (my word) alternative to the socially restrictive temper of much of the town. Her congregation is small but very active, and is definitely a shining light in what is in many ways a dark place. She ends up being the towns de-facto go-to person for people seeking a quote or sound-bite on many "liberal" stands. I could not be more proud of her.

This story makes my blood run fucking cold.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:34 AM on July 28, 2008 [6 favorites]


I read the account on Yahoo. As I understand it, the man had over seventy rounds of ammunition. Mr. McKendry gave his life to protect the members of the church. Other members of the congregation subdued the gunman after three shotgun blasts that killed two and injured seven.

What incredible heroism in this congregation. They even saved the life of the killer. I wonder whether Unitarian churches will be more full than usual this coming Sunday.
posted by ferdydurke at 11:35 AM on July 28, 2008 [22 favorites]


raysmj - ugh. and wow.
posted by Artw at 11:37 AM on July 28, 2008


Videogames, I tell you. It was videogames that did it...

And rap music and heavy metal musci and the decline in usage of spirographs and the deginated hitter rule.
posted by NoMich at 11:38 AM on July 28, 2008


Who doesn't know what "Confederate" and "believer in the old South" is code for?

This also explains why he thinks his being out of work is due to nefarious libruls.
posted by DU at 11:39 AM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


.
posted by everichon at 11:39 AM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


If a man cannot defend himself with just his brain and fists, he ain't no man.

Yeah - the unarmed dead guy who rushed the lunatic bigot shooting up a church. "He ain't no man." Bullshit. Let's revise your statement to reflect the reality on the ground: If a man cannot defend himself [from a gun] with just his brain and fists, he ain't no man [will probably die].
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:39 AM on July 28, 2008 [12 favorites]


Just thinking that if this had been a mosque, that instead of a man stepping in front of the gunman to protect women and children, that one of those poor kids would have been used as a shield, and then paraded around as a martyr.

This is a particularly egregious example of something that happens a lot in political debates, the wonderful "argument by imagination", where something will happen and the argument goes "Just imagine if this happened to them!"

It's really obnoxious, because there is no real way to tell what would actually happen.
posted by delmoi at 11:43 AM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


So where's Ann Coulter on this one? She's been pretty explicitly calling for people to kill liberals for years.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:43 AM on July 28, 2008 [15 favorites]


Of Madmen and Martyrs
posted by homunculus at 11:43 AM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


I wonder whether Unitarian churches will be more full than usual this coming Sunday.

Maybe, maybe not. A lot of us take the summers off, and just have smaller, lay-led services. I'd like to think people are at least checking out the UUA website, or that of their local congregation.

All the UUs I've talked to (fellow congregation members, and UU knitters on Ravelry) just seem to be in shock and disbelief. I've heard lots of people talk about vigils. Me, I alternate between really sad, and extremely angry.
posted by booksherpa at 11:43 AM on July 28, 2008


It's Raining Florence Henderson - The guy died a better man than most of us could ever hope to be, that's for sure.
posted by Artw at 11:44 AM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]




So true -- after 8 years of this administration, the liberals do indeed have a great deal to answer for. He should have shot more of them. Truly an inspiration!
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:45 AM on July 28, 2008


It's Raining Florence Henderson - The guy died a better man than most of us could ever hope to be, that's for sure.

Very true.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:47 AM on July 28, 2008


...that instead of a man stepping in front of the gunman to protect women and children, that one of those poor kids would have been used as a shield, and then paraded around as a martyr.

Because if there's one thing that Muslim suicide bombers have shown us, it's that they are physical cowards who refuse to die for a cause.

Also: I sure can't think of any examples of older people putting much younger people, kids really, in the line of fire and then parading the dead bodies around as martyrsheroes.
posted by DU at 11:51 AM on July 28, 2008 [11 favorites]




Wow, the mainstream media are totally glossing over the gay-hatred aspect of this. Can't make homophobia look bad, I guess

who, the same guys who informed America so well that a majority of the people thinks that Saddam did 9/11 and WMDs have been found in Iraq? those guys? who gave plum jobs and lots of cash to the neocon op-ed writers and -- God forbid -- the so-called "liberal hawks" who got everything wrong about the Iraq War, rewarding them for what was either their incompetence or their sheer dishonesty?

that liberal media?

very, very liberal bunch.
posted by matteo at 11:55 AM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


I've seen conservatives in the comments sections of bonehead blogs calling for liberals to be placed in concentration camps, deported, and run over with cars and trucks. I'm not even remotely surprised. If anything I'm amazed it hadn't happened sooner. There is an awful lot of inarticulate and misguided rage out there, and sometimes it's armed or behind the wheel of a car.
posted by fleetmouse at 11:56 AM on July 28, 2008 [10 favorites]


From NYT,

Witnesses said that the gunman, carrying a guitar case, had first tried to enter the area where the children were preparing for the play, saying he was there to play music. But he was told to use the public entrance to the sanctuary instead.


This could have been so much worse if not for the person who denied the killer access to those kids. Seems that church was full of awesome people yesterday.
posted by hojoki at 11:56 AM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


(also, don't ever ask the question, was this guy badly-regulated or was he simply not a militia? I mean, something must have gone wrong in the infite wisdom of the Second Amendment there because he sure as fuck had a right to bear arms in there -- pacifist Unitarians being a dangerous bunch)
posted by matteo at 11:57 AM on July 28, 2008 [6 favorites]




that instead of a man stepping in front of the gunman to protect women and children, that one of those poor kids would have been used as a shield, and then paraded around as a martyr.

When Baruch Goldstein opened fire in the Cave of the Patriarchs mosque on February 25, 1994, nobody used a child as a shield, even though he killed 24 people at prayer and wounded 150 people. So that imaginary little fable is demonstratably untrue.

It's so strange when people's idiology becomes so entrenched that they not only think they can prove their points by concocting fairy tales, but they don't even bother doing a Google search to discover whether their fantasy has any historic antecedents. It's just lazy. And appalling.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:57 AM on July 28, 2008 [28 favorites]


squalor: The song going through my head.

Except for this line: They hanged ol' Smack right then

Not Unitarians. I can guarantee that if the death penalty is on the table in this case, the members of the TVUUC will be first in line to plead for the man's life.
posted by supercres at 11:57 AM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


(Sorry, I am pretty angry right now. My country is fucked up and I feel like crying.)
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:59 AM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


I've seen conservatives in the comments sections of bonehead blogs calling for liberals to be placed in concentration camps, deported, and run over with cars and trucks.

I've read similar statements in recent months. It made my blood run cold, partly because in context I'm quite sure they were serious. And partly because other, seemingly more reasonable types, defended them as just "blowing off steam."
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:00 PM on July 28, 2008


I thought TBM's comment was more saying that the gunman shouldn't have been free to carry a gun around. Excusing the whole cult of masculinity "aint a man" nonsense, I thought the idea was that if you want to have a battle, you should have to either start or react to a fight with your wits and your fists. I didn't think he was saying the guy who defended the kids was lame.
posted by cashman at 12:01 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


.
posted by gurple at 12:03 PM on July 28, 2008


Yeah. Blowing off steam. Exactly the way a depressed person blows of steam when they fantasize endlessly about suicide. Thank god they blow off the steam, or, who knows, their endless planning, and picking a date, and buying a noose, and writing notes -- well, that might end up in someone actually killing themselves, rather than what generally happens, which is that blowing off steam helps the depressed person to become happy again.

Oh, wait. Wrong metaphor, I guess. Those are actually the signs that someone is getting ready to kill themselves.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:03 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


If only the liberals and conservatives would cancel each other out... Paradise!
posted by a3matrix at 12:06 PM on July 28, 2008


This also explains why he thinks his being out of work is due to nefarious libruls.

If Rush Limbaugh said it then it must be true!
posted by damn dirty ape at 12:10 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


I've read similar statements in recent months. It made my blood run cold, partly because in context I'm quite sure they were serious. And partly because other, seemingly more reasonable types, defended them as just "blowing off steam."

It's a way of coping with cognitive dissonance, I think, or of failing to cope - many of these people are deeply emotionally invested in a worldview that is turning out to be not just wrong but three ring circus, fireworks climax, twirling pasties on the titties wrong. And different people are reacting in different ways. Charles Johnson over at Little Green Footballs has gone on a crusade against creationism, which I think is his way of acknowledging that a lot of his fans are medieval-minded gorillas, without having to confront all the other ways that he and they are wrong about other things.
posted by fleetmouse at 12:11 PM on July 28, 2008 [8 favorites]


If only the liberals and conservatives would cancel each other out... Paradise!

Unless you're, say, gay, or were a minority before the civil rights era, or something like that.
posted by delmoi at 12:12 PM on July 28, 2008 [11 favorites]


Half my extended family lives in and around Knoxville. The hate directed at my white cousin and his black wife when they got married was pretty depressing.

I tend to agree that the "mental illness" aspect of this crime is probably more relevant than the social/political themes; but if this crime was going to happen, it was going to happen somewhere like Knoxville.
posted by gurple at 12:13 PM on July 28, 2008


If only the liberals and conservatives would cancel each other out... Paradise!

What America needs is more political apathy.
posted by DU at 12:13 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


If only the liberals and conservatives would cancel each other out... Paradise!
posted by a3matrix at 12:06 PM on July 28


Liberals don't go to conservative megachurches and shoot people. But conservatives have been known to go to liberal churches and shoot people. I'll stick with the liberals, thanks.

I'm not a religious man. But I like the UUs; they're good folk. This is sad, and sadly predictable. When Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter and Michael Reagan encourage their followers to go out and kill liberals, sometimes they do.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:13 PM on July 28, 2008 [8 favorites]


If only the liberals and conservatives would cancel each other out... Paradise!

Have you read the links, or this thread?
posted by LittleMissCranky at 12:14 PM on July 28, 2008




Wow, the mainstream media are totally glossing over the gay-hatred aspect of this.

And the Annie aspect. This is certainly not the first act of violence inspired by "(The Sun'll Come Out) Tomorrow".
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:16 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


i wonder when the MSM will call this murderer a terrorist.

'cause he sure does fit the definition.
posted by CitizenD at 12:21 PM on July 28, 2008 [13 favorites]


Wow, the mainstream media are totally glossing over the gay-hatred aspect of this.

If it was a congregation of black people, or a synagogue shot up by a white supremacist, that might be newsworthy. But why should the press care about a bunch of librul faggots getting what they deserve?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:22 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


Saw it on the news, read it on numerous news sites, perused the obligatory hand wringing thread.
I will agree that I do not recall reading about the anti gay aspect of the story.


DU nailed it pretty much. What America needs is more political apathy.
I have gone beyond apathy though. Apathy would have been the last 10 years. What is beyond apathy DU?

And I know a few gay people that aren't liberals delmoi. So don't stereo type people. Now they aren't conservative either, probably Libertarian. Or something along those lines.
posted by a3matrix at 12:23 PM on July 28, 2008


In Tennessee, Eliminationism Is No Longer ‘Just A Joke’

We even have a political party that calls for the dealth penalty for being gay.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:25 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


If there is a silver lining at all, it's that Jim Adkisson didn't get the cop-by-suicide he wanted.

He didn't get to have the last word.
posted by grabbingsand at 12:27 PM on July 28, 2008 [10 favorites]


"As soon as they got Lot and his family out of Sodom, God fire-bombed the city and turned them into ashes. Today, those same kind of people are back, but now they're called Gays!"

"Wow!"

"Why did Ms Henn bring them into our class?"

She had to. . .because of new laws. Satan wants to destroy us kids."
posted by plexi at 12:27 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


I was on the phone with a good friend yesterday, during which she noticed that she received a text message (but couldn't check while in mid-conversation). She called me back a little after we hung up, saying that it was from her mother and only said "We are safe." As it turns out, that was their church--though they weren't present at that event.

My friend is justifiably feeling very strong emotions right now, but said that she wouldn't be surprised if some of the congregants go to visit/minister to the perpetrator due to their astonishing kindness. Paraphrasing her: There are so few souls so gentle out there, and it's truly sad to think that there are two fewer now.

.
posted by kittyprecious at 12:29 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


I have gone beyond apathy though.

Not far enough. True apathy would be the absence of any voice or thought at all. Total Beckettian silence. Try it out.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:33 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Has this video been linked to? It seems that he wasn't a Christian, just a very hateful, confused man.
posted by roll truck roll at 12:36 PM on July 28, 2008



Yeah - the unarmed dead guy who rushed the lunatic bigot shooting up a church. "He ain't no man."


I think the point was missed a bit, here, in that the person you were responding to (as I read it) was suggesting that the country would be better off without any guns, so that it would be up to your brains and brawn -- not that people should go up against people weilding guns with only their fists and intelligence to defend with.
posted by davejay at 12:37 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


So this guy is clearly unhinged. No matter what kind of wingnut you are, you don't just go around shooting your ideological nemeses. But the real shame is that there are sane people, people who are capable of making decisions and knowing the difference between right and wrong, who will hear this and think, as BP notes, "a bunch of librul faggots getting what they deserve."
posted by uncleozzy at 12:38 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Pure terrorism.

Thank God we can count on Homeland Security, the Justice Department, and indeed the entire resources of the Bush administration to do whatever it takes to root it out.
posted by jamjam at 12:42 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


This happened three miles from my house. I have friends who are lifelong members of this church. (They were not injured).

I think it was only a matter of time before the constant stream of hatred directed at liberals from the right-wing radio shows and blogs led to something like this. I do hope that this will cause some of the people who listen to these radio shows to stop and think, but I am not optimistic.
posted by wadefranklin at 12:46 PM on July 28, 2008 [8 favorites]


Wow, this really sucks. My heart goes out to the families of the two who laid down their lives to save others.
posted by onalark at 12:47 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Astro Zombie: ""It appears that what brought him to this horrible event was his lack of being able to obtain a job, his frustration over that, and his stated hatred for the liberal movement," Knoxville Police Chief Sterling Owen IV told reporters on Monday.

Authorities also discovered a letter from the state government telling Adkisson he was having his food stamps reduced or eliminated, police said.


I just don't understand. Most conservatives I know consider food stamps part of the problem. I guess you rail against any socially liberal policy except the one that you personally need.

This story just sickens me.
"

This is precisely the issue in my family. My sister is struggling for years now to get disability. My mother, who should be retiring now, is instead working long hours to pay for the medical care my sister needs. Combine that with a lack of housing ownership, and their need now for public assistance in housing, I continually ask her "why do you still support Republicans who continually blame the poor and cut aid to those who need it?" Somehow in her mind, it's the democrats. Yeah, when you get Clintonites in power, well, Republican lite dems will indeed be part of the problem.

That said, what a fucking tragedy this is, and it sickens me that this guy was influenced by such hatemongers. And you know FOX news will never accept any sort of responsibility for the role they might have played in this guy's troubled psyche.

Ah, the mighty myth of "self-determination" and "responsibility": it lets the rich and mighty off the hook every time.
posted by symbioid at 12:52 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


One can only hope that Adkisson does not get the death penalty either, so he can spend the remaining years of his life getting intimately acquainted with inmates who want to educate him on gay sex.

Um, no. Revenge fantasies involving prison rape show that one is no better than the target of one's anger. Better to wish that he should come to his senses and be forced to live with the guilt of what he has done.
posted by fleetmouse at 12:53 PM on July 28, 2008 [67 favorites]


Because prison rape is funny, right?
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 12:54 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


...was apparently frustrated over being out of work and had a "stated hatred of the liberal movement."

I'm still amazed at this line. The more I read it, the more I wonder what the fuck is wrong with this country.

"I've lost my job, the economy is tanking, I bet it's something those god damned liberals set in motion before they lost power almost ten years ago. Now, just to get even, I'm going to shoot up some people in a church for not being religiously devout enough and trying to be kind to the gays. That's what Jesus would do."

posted by quin at 1:02 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


That's what Jesus would do.

According to the people that knew this guy, though, that's certainly not what he was thinking.
posted by kingbenny at 1:05 PM on July 28, 2008


Um, no. Revenge fantasies involving prison rape show that one is no better than the target of one's anger. Better to wish that he should come to his senses and be forced to live with the guilt of what he has done.

Or maybe even realize his errors, and choose to help contribute to building a world that is inclusive of everyone, regardless of sexuality/political affiliation.
posted by formless at 1:06 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


:
posted by yort at 1:09 PM on July 28, 2008


Or maybe even realize his errors, and choose to help contribute to building a world that is inclusive of everyone, regardless of sexuality/political affiliation.

Perhaps he could even be trained to shit gold doubloons to compensate the families of his victims, and pay for the reconstruction of Iraq's infrastructure.
posted by fleetmouse at 1:09 PM on July 28, 2008 [12 favorites]


>Artw I think the wild speculation was confirmed by the letter Jim D. Adkisson left in his car. He didn't plan on surviving. He had hoped the cops would shoot and kill him so he would never have to answer for this cowardly crime.

I woke up this morning and read this letter to the editor in the local paper. I just kind of shook my head thinking Mr. Sykes is probably just a frustrated old man. Now, having read this sad story, I think he is a potential terrorist.
From the letter, "I'll bet those hoodlums were educated at liberal-infested government schools and probably wouldn't be able to read the editorials anyway."
posted by Sailormom at 1:13 PM on July 28, 2008


And the Annie aspect. This is certainly not the first act of violence inspired by "(The Sun'll Come Out) Tomorrow".
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:16 PM on July 28


Ah, the world-renowned compassion of the Scientologists. Thanks for contributing to this thread.
posted by interrobang at 1:13 PM on July 28, 2008


Because prison rape is funny, right?

No, but in the situation it would be tragically ironic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:15 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


The more I read it, the more I wonder what the fuck is wrong with this country

cf. What's the Matter With Kansas?

There is an alternative reality to where conservatives can go to make the big imperfect world more understandable and perhaps controllable.

A world where dirty lefty traitors sold out Nationalist China to Mao, "didn't let us win" in Vietnam, crippled the military in the 70s, banned God in the schools and public square, legalized and now encourage the murder of little babies, preach global warming as a mechanism of hobbling ugly capitalist industry, teach darwinism and secular materialism to push any hint of the Divine out of public discourse.

It is a pathetic worldview populated by pathetic people. Unfortunately, they're 20%+ of the population so what can we do other than hope they die off leaving their offspring a bit less fucked in the head.
posted by yort at 1:15 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


Flee, offspring, flee to the cities!
posted by Artw at 1:16 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


One can only hope that Adkisson does not get the death penalty either, so he can spend the remaining years of his life getting intimately acquainted with inmates who want to educate him on gay sex.

Um, no. Revenge fantasies involving prison rape show that one is no better than the target of one's anger. Better to wish that he should come to his senses and be forced to live with the guilt of what he has done.

Really? He shoots two people and planned on shooting many more kids. And I'm no better than him because I hope he finds some sort of ironic justice in jail?

I guess your parents didn't teach you about sticks and stones.
posted by cjets at 1:20 PM on July 28, 2008


It's interesting that some of the chatter on right-wing sites seems to circle around whether this is a hate-crime or not—and question of whether we should have hate crime legislation in general. I would have thought that seven years under the spectre of terrorism would have thrown the logic behind hate-crime legislation into sharp relief. But some people are incorrigible, I suppose.

This is not a good way to start the week.

.
posted by Weebot at 1:24 PM on July 28, 2008


And I'm no better than him

Did I say that? No. I did not say that.

I guess your parents didn't teach you about sticks and stones.


I guess yours didn't teach you that two wrongs don't make a right. Or that rape is a problem, not a solution.
posted by fleetmouse at 1:24 PM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


posted by cjets I guess your parents didn't teach you about sticks and stones.

I guess your parents didn't teach you about compassion and humanity.
posted by optovox at 1:25 PM on July 28, 2008 [9 favorites]


Er... enough with the weird homophobic prison rape revenge fantasies, please.
posted by Artw at 1:25 PM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


Revenge is Sour.
posted by shadow vector at 1:25 PM on July 28, 2008 [6 favorites]


Actually, wait. I did say that. *facepalm*

Sorry, it was rhetorical hyperbole. I didn't mean that you're literally no better than him.
posted by fleetmouse at 1:26 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


Really? He shoots two people and planned on shooting many more kids. And I'm no better than him because I hope he finds some sort of ironic justice in jail?

But the fate you're hoping he experiences isn't justice, it's revenge. Which I thought was often either the exact opposite of or completely unrelated to justice, never part and parcel of it.

As a comm'nist, tree-hugging, gay loving librul, I think what would be justice is his actions somehow making the world a better place for at least as many people as he hurt by his actions. But I often fear that Death in Discworld was right when he pointed out that justice is not an innate part of the Universe.

Nevertheless, I'd wager that most of the UUs I've had the pleasure of meeting would not even for one second hope to see this man get raped in prison.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:28 PM on July 28, 2008


cjets, I see what you're trying to say, but man-on-man rape != gay sex. It equals rape. Also, it would probably only confirm his biases, leaving him to die believing he'd done the right thing.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:28 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


I guess your parents didn't teach you about compassion and humanity.

Or that that two wrongs don't make a right.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:28 PM on July 28, 2008


Also the very real risk of triggering one of those horrid, holier than thou metatalk threads.
posted by Artw at 1:35 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


If it is any consolation, Sailormom, most other respondents to that letter think Sykes is an idiot, too.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 1:37 PM on July 28, 2008


Actually, wait. I did say that. *facepalm*

Sorry, it was rhetorical hyperbole. I didn't mean that you're literally no better than him.


Thanks Fleetmouse, I appreciate the correction.

cjets, I see what you're trying to say, but man-on-man rape != gay sex. It equals rape. Also, it would probably only confirm his biases, leaving him to die believing he'd done the right thing.

That was kinda the whole point, that this man's murderous actions brought him face to face with the very thing he despised and hated so much.

I believe that punishment is a component of justice and this seems a very appropriate punishment for a man who killed because he hated gay people/liberals, etc.
posted by cjets at 1:41 PM on July 28, 2008


kittyprecious writes "but said that she wouldn't be surprised if some of the congregants go to visit/minister to the perpetrator due to their astonishing kindness."

You know this is one of the things that ticks some people off about Christianity. A significant percentage of Christians seem to have this smug self satisfied feeling and confidence that everything would be better in the world if everyone just embraced their one true god. A guy just shot up their church for smegs sake. What would ever put the thought in their brain that a) he needs or desires ministering to and b) if he did that he'd want it from them.
posted by Mitheral at 1:50 PM on July 28, 2008


Metafilter: not just wrong but three ring circus, fireworks climax, twirling pasties on the titties wrong

I'm sorry but I had to. Even in the context of a thread about such a tragic event, Fleetmouse's sentence is simply too awesome to ignore.
posted by echolalia67 at 1:50 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


You know this is one of the things that ticks some people off about Christianity

Unless I'm misreading, she's not talking about Christians, but UUs. It'd be more like, "Hey bro, we're pretty pissed you shot some people in our church. Let's smoke a bowl and talk about it."

Not really. Well, maybe.
posted by uncleozzy at 1:57 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


What would ever put the thought in their brain that a) he needs or desires ministering to

That would be Jesus.

b) if he did that he'd want it from them.

That zany Jesus again! Some Christians have this weird urge to help people, even people who have professed hatred for them. There's this really nutty story about turning cheeks that you should look up some time.
posted by Shepherd at 1:58 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


this man's murderous actions brought him face to face with the very thing he despised and hated so much.

What he hates I imagine he does not really understand, and as others have said, violent acts performed against him that he thinks are "gay" would not be poetic, just or ironic. What might be ironic would be that he experienced a wholesome and fulfilling relationship with a man, or maybe just extremely hot gay sex, and it forced him to realise what he did.

But fuck irony. I don't wish pleasure for him, even pleasure that result in profound, self-aware misery.

everyone just embraced their one true god.
UU's are not, generaly speaking, Christian, and they certainly do not minister about one true god.
posted by dirtdirt at 1:58 PM on July 28, 2008


Mitheral, there's a big difference between compassion and proselytizing, and I can't imagine why you'd think Unitarians practice the latter.

Flee, offspring, flee to the cities!

Knoxville is a city, and if you haven't spent time in the neighboring dry counties (oh, man), you probably don't realize what an oasis of heterodoxy it is.
posted by kittyprecious at 2:01 PM on July 28, 2008


posted by Mitheral A guy just shot up their church for smegs sake. What would ever put the thought in their brain that a) he needs or desires ministering to and b) if he did that he'd want it from them.

Probably something Jesus said about forgiveness.
posted by optovox at 2:01 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


It bears repeating for the people obviously skimming these comments: UUs by and large do not identify as Christian.
posted by gurple at 2:02 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Not a Christian here, and not even remotely pro-Christian, but if some Christians want to, you know, act in a Christ-like manner then fuck it, I’m all behind it. Certainly more-so than the “let’s buy SUVs and bomb brown people” Christians.
posted by Artw at 2:04 PM on July 28, 2008 [8 favorites]


OK strike Christan and One true God and insert, um, Some religions and $Diety. Personally I can't see visiting the guy who tried to shoot you as compassionate, more as taunting.
posted by Mitheral at 2:05 PM on July 28, 2008


It bears repeating for the people obviously skimming these comments: UUs by and large do not identify as Christian.

-shrugs-

And if they just want to be nice, reasonable people without Christ as an example I’m all behind that as well.
posted by Artw at 2:06 PM on July 28, 2008


UU's are not, generaly speaking, Christian, and they certainly do not minister about one true god.

from the UUA (Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations) website: "Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion with Jewish-Christian roots."

they are -- or can be, perhaps -- just as "christian" as any other "christian church." it really irks me when folks try to suggest that they're not chrisitan.

they are a *liberal* christian church -- which means that, among other things, they're not about to go around judging other peoples' churchs as to whether they're christian or not.
posted by CitizenD at 2:07 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


Really? He shoots two people and planned on shooting many more kids. And I'm no better than him because I hope he finds some sort of ironic justice in jail?

If you relish the fact that our government relies on institutionalized violent crime to deter and punish misdeeds, then you certainly have more in common with him than with me.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 2:08 PM on July 28, 2008 [8 favorites]


I really don't know what to say. I want to say something, but especially after reading the thread I just don't know what to add.

The guy was obviously a toxic combination of mentally unstable, ideologically misguided, and just plain stupid.

I hate that this happened. I hate that this happened in Tennessee. I hate that this happened in America. I hate that this happened in the present.

This is what I've tried to say in other threads. Those of you fortunate enough to live in more "enlightened" areas really don't understand the reality of the Heartland of America.
posted by Ynoxas at 2:08 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


OK strike Christan and One true God and insert, um, Some religions and $Diety.

I don't disagree with you about proselytizing being obnoxious; far from it. But UUs don't even agree about whether there's a deity. Wikipedia.

UU congregations often include atheists, Wiccans, secular humanists... I think of them as a sort of spiritually-oriented social club, but I'm kind of a jerk that way.

"Jewish-Christian roots"? Whatever. They have no creeds, no dogmas, and a good deal of their membership doesn't even think there's a God. Trying to categorize them is pretty confusing.
posted by gurple at 2:11 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


... symptom of a larger problem in America
posted by Fupped Duck at 2:11 PM on July 28, 2008


(In support of gurple's comment about UUs being difficult to categorize, I'd like to point out that my local congregation's next Sunday service is, apparently, titled, "Bob Marley: The Man, the Myth, the Legend.")
posted by uncleozzy at 2:13 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


Flee, offspring, flee to the cities!

Yes, because it's not as if they shoot gay or bisexual people in the cities, not one bit.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 2:14 PM on July 28, 2008


posted by Ynoxas Those of you fortunate enough to live in more "enlightened" areas really don't understand the reality of the Heartland of America.

Where are these enlightened areas? I suppose it's a Heartland of America thing, we wouldn't understand.
posted by optovox at 2:15 PM on July 28, 2008


It'll happen again as well, wherever you have crazy people and guns. You can blather on about causes all you want, it's that crazy person/gun intersection that'll go off every time, and America has great big pools of both everywhere, with just about any ideological bent, preferred form of mass entertainment, age range and set of delusions that you can think of. I don’t even think gun control is possible in America, but really people who are for maximalised gun ownership really ought to man-up and own this kind of thing as the cost of the societal settings they advocate.
posted by Artw at 2:17 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


This is what I've tried to say in other threads. Those of you fortunate enough to live in more "enlightened" areas really don't understand the reality of the Heartland of America.

++
As saddened as I am about this shooting, there is another part of me that isn't surprised by it one bit. In fact, I could quite easily see this happening here in my little corner of the "Heartland". There's a huge number of heavily conservative, heavily armed and extremely angry people here. And they blame every bit of their problems on liberals, gays, and mexicans.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:17 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


"Jewish-Christian roots"? Whatever. They have no creeds, no dogmas, and a good deal of their membership doesn't even think there's a God. Trying to categorize them is pretty confusing.

then why are you trying so hard (and failing) to suggest that "UUs by and large don't identify as christian"???

i think one strength of the UU church is that they have their jewish-christian roots, but allow (nay, *celebrate,* even) those who choose to believe differently.

i'm going to believe the organization itself (which i linked to a couple of comments ago) which neither brags about -- nor denies -- its christian roots, over your own observations.
posted by CitizenD at 2:18 PM on July 28, 2008


Those of you fortunate enough to live in more "enlightened" areas really don't understand the reality of the Heartland of America.

Are you living out there, Ynoxas? In what I call the secular diaspora? I am just so fucking privileged and grateful to live in Montreal where, despite the ever present churches and the Catholic heritage, religious wackaloons are by and large regarded as religious wackaloons by the majority of the population and I have no hesitation in openly identifying myself as an agnostic / atheist.

Having said that, this thread is reminding me that I've wanted to investigate Unitarian Universalism for a while now. Maybe this is a good time to attend a service. I respect a ministry whose only common bond is a search for truth. It sounds like all the best social aspects of religion with none of the nutty ick. Heh, I've always wanted to be able to say that I'm religious but not spiritual.
posted by fleetmouse at 2:19 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


they are a *liberal* christian church

We are not. That is, a great majority of UUs would not identify as Christian, despite having origins in two liberal denominations of Christianity. Our principles and purposes say that we draw teachings from the Judeo-Christian tradition, as well as numerous other religions as well as numerous other, more secular, philosophies.

Christians tend to be labeled as such by having central tenets of faith revolving around the divinity of Jesus, the atonement, and the resurrection. UUism has no such dogma, or any dogma for that matter. That's in our principles and purposes as well.

I feel, however, that the main tenet of our religion is the respect for the inherent worth and dignity of all people. That's why this feels like such a violation to me. This man not only disagreed with us about that, but he felt it necessary to show his disagreement by violating this principle.

My $.02
posted by supercres at 2:21 PM on July 28, 2008 [16 favorites]


gurple writes "'Jewish-Christian roots'? Whatever. They have no creeds, no dogmas, and a good deal of their membership doesn't even think there's a God. Trying to categorize them is pretty confusing."

Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
posted by mullingitover at 2:21 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


So, after decades of eliminationist rhetoric from the mainstream right we have our first non-abortion related causalities.

I do, very much, lay the blame for this on Limbaugh, Coulter, Savage, et al. They have consistently and without any letup preached that liberals are responsible for all social ills, that they are literal traitors to America, and that killing liberals would be a good thing.

My mother and sister are members of a UU congregation in the tiny conservative town of Amarillo TX. I worry, now, when a right wing loon here will come for them.
posted by sotonohito at 2:22 PM on July 28, 2008


Hating gays because of who we choose to love does not equal bringing him "face to face with the very thing he despised and hated so much" if he is raped in prison. If he was somehow articulating that he was totally "pro rape" and was then subjected to rape in prison, I might agree that he was coming face to face with his ridiculous stance.

Prison sex and/or rape does not = gay. In fact, I would argue that those who do equate it have some evaluating to do about their own prejudices and understanding about what it means to be gay.
posted by jasbet07 at 2:22 PM on July 28, 2008


Sounds an awful lot like the CoE.
posted by Artw at 2:22 PM on July 28, 2008


UU, that is, not prison rape.
posted by Artw at 2:23 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


And yet next week on Fox News they will repeat for the umpteenth time "there has not been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11" Bullshit!
posted by any major dude at 2:24 PM on July 28, 2008


I am a birthright Unitarian of over 5 decades. You have to look pretty hard to find us. There are only about 300k UUA members in North America. As soon as I saw the headline and the locale I immediately thought "hate crime". Sadly, I was correct...
posted by jim in austin at 2:26 PM on July 28, 2008


I grew up in a UU church, and when I heard about this I felt like I'd been punched in the gut. Certainly the facts on their own are bad enough — a man bursts into a church during a children's play, for fuck's sake, and starts blasting away with a 12-gauge — and all the more frightening because I can glue them together with scenes from my own childhood into some nightmarish mental chimera. For that reason alone, I don't think I'd be able to shrug this news off as easily as I manage (for better or worse) to not let similar stories of senseless violence affect me.

But there's really more to it than that, now that I think about it. See, one of the main features of Unitarianism is that it's a moral religion rather than a metaphysical one.1 This was one of the things that, as I came of age, began to really appeal to me about Unitarianism. I would watch all the news reports about sectarian violence in Northern Ireland or the West Bank or Gujarat and I'd think to myself, "For the most part, these people don't really have values that are that different; it's just that the ancestors of one side happened to believe in one God and the ancestors of one side happened to believe in another." People seemed to me to be killing each other over a question that was, in the end, unanswerable and unknowable. If only people could agree to disagree about the metaphysics (I'd think to myself), about whether one invisible being or another might or might not exist, then they'd be able to live a lot more peacefully and harmoniously together.

And then this Adkisson guy decides that this kind of acceptance, tolerance, and harmony — the kind of thing that I had hoped that the human race could aspire to — is not only something he rejects, but is the precise reason he needs to visit violence upon those same people who, in my estimation, had found a way to rise above it. The deep, awful, perverted irony of this act has managed to kick some of the foundation out from under my mental edifice, and I'm going to need time to rebuild.

1Mitheral, UUism isn't really a Christian faith, since belief in Christ or God is neither required nor prohibited to call yourself a Unitarian. Knowing this, does the statement you quoted still bother you?
posted by Johnny Assay at 2:27 PM on July 28, 2008 [11 favorites]




I should add: Using the history of UUism to suggest that we are essentially Christian is like using the history of the American people to suggest that Americans are essentially British. The UU church is a melting pot too; we have origins all over the place, and it is likewise a mistake to call us a form of Christianity.

Sorry, I'm not making a judgment about Christianity, but virtually all UUs will tell you the same thing--- we have members who would call themselves Christian, but the majority don't. I only have fifteen years of activity in the church to back that up, not a specific citation. Except maybe this.
posted by supercres at 2:30 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Hunh. This thread is the first time I've ever encountered the term "eliminationism."

Can someone give me a nice, succinct definition? From context, I can't see how it's any different from terrorism. Or is it one of those "every x is y, but not every y is x" things where every terrorist is an eliminationist, but not every eliminationist is a terrorist?

Wikipedia doesn't have an article, and this Orcinus series on it is tl; dr.
posted by lord_wolf at 2:33 PM on July 28, 2008


As a rarely practicing but lifelong UU I see what you are saying, CitizenD. But I have known literally hundreds of UU's and never one, that I can recall, who self-identified as Christian. In fact, one quibble that I have always had with UUism is that there is a logical disconnect in claiming all religion equally valid when all those religions have very explicit "this is the only valid religion" clauses. I imagine we'll sort it out sometime in the next hundred years or so, over coffee and scones.
posted by dirtdirt at 2:33 PM on July 28, 2008


Using the history of UUism to suggest that we are essentially Christian is like using the history of the American people to suggest that Americans are essentially British.

You're esentially British Christians.
posted by Artw at 2:36 PM on July 28, 2008


There's a huge number of heavily conservative, heavily armed and extremely angry people here. And they blame every bit of their problems on liberals, gays, and mexicans.

Yess, us black are finally safe!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:36 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


I was raised a UU, and my mother and many of my friends are still, and I feel like I've been punched in the stomach. These are decent, peace-loving people and this fucker just hated that much.

What talk-show host(s) did he listen to? Whoever it is, his/her name should be raked over the coals. I think delmoi nailed it in the first comment in this thread.
posted by brundlefly at 2:37 PM on July 28, 2008


And just in case you thought that escaping the U.S. offered immunity.

It is shit like this that really radicalizes me. Not that I'm going to be throwing bombs and stocking up on shotgun shells, but this comes on the heels of Lawrence King and Shanesha Stewart, the granting of a manslaughter verdict in the murder of Victor Manious, the recent battery of a transwoman in police custody, and a questionable shooting during San Diego gay pride. As I see these things keep coming month after month, I get so profoundly frustrated at how much time, energy and money is spent on the sideshow of the primary election, and its aftermath.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 2:46 PM on July 28, 2008


And I'm just a slight bit weirded out at how much Adkisson looks like Kurt Vonnegut.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 2:47 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


Unitarian Universalists are Christians inasmuch as rapists are gay. Lazy conflations, both. I'm so weary of homophobic takes on prison rape. Imagine how preposterous and despicable it would be to conflate heteros with straight rape. "Watch out walking home tonight, Jenny, there are straight men afoot."

But it is tempting for me to label such peaceable people, capable of turning the other cheek, as "Good Christians."
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:48 PM on July 28, 2008


Guns in church.

Let's parse that, shall we?

A gun is a mechanical device designed solely to kill living beings.

A church is a place of worship, where people go (ostensibly) to celebrate life and foment joy and happiness and love for their fellow man.

So you've got people carrying devices designed to kill people, in a temple designed to celebrate life.

Sorry to put this so crudely but: EPIC FUCKING FAIL.
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:49 PM on July 28, 2008 [11 favorites]


The UUA is in the Judeo-Christian tradition having been originally a Protestant schism. We are perhaps now closer to Ethical Unionists in content but our roots are definitely Christian. I might add there are New England Unitarians who are almost indistinguishable from Congregationalist or other mainstream Christian sects. And independent Universalists still exist who profess universal salvation as a central article of faith.
posted by jim in austin at 2:49 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church had "just put out a sign this week which says it welcomes gays."
I hope they keep the sign up.
posted by Flunkie at 2:50 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


the granting of a manslaughter verdict in the murder of Victor Manious

That ruling is a disgusting travesty of justice.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:51 PM on July 28, 2008


yeah, i didn't word my comment very well. my apologies to those who felt that i have misrepresented the UU church.

i am not a UU. but many of my friends are. quite a few of them identify as christian. i always feel badly for them when they are mocked and ridiculed for going to a UU church.

they are mocked from within, by some in the UU church who suggest that the inconsistencies/hypocrisies within christianity should be "beneath" them. (these are folks who see their religion as superior, and therefore want to distance themselves from 'regular' christianity)

they are mocked from without, by those who say that the absence of creed/dogma indicates that UU churches should not even be allowed to be called a "church." (they don't stand for ANYTHING!...these folks are well represented in the comments sections of several of the links in the OP)

i guess all i was trying to say is that, in my understanding, christians are just as welcome as anyone else in the UU fold. the UU church is not inherently christian, but it also does not deny christianity or hold it at arms-length.
posted by CitizenD at 2:52 PM on July 28, 2008


I dislike calling this incident "terrorism." This is obviously just as bad, but I agree with geoff: I have a feeling this is less rooted in political ideology and has more to do with a long-standing undiagnosed mental illness.

Calling it terrorism is just borrowing the lexicon of the right; they want us to believe that terrorists are everywhere, under every rock and behind every tree, and they use it as an excuse to shred the bill of rights. Terrorists are not everywhere. This is a combination of nut-job plus right-wing radio.
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 2:52 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


Navelgazer, first rape isn't "about" sex, now it's not even sex at all? And I suppose attacking someone with a kitchen knife isn't "cutting" either, nor with a gun "shooting".

Please provide me with Venn diagrams and the like so I understand your ontology. Thank you.
posted by vsync at 2:55 PM on July 28, 2008


kirkjobsluder: this comes on the heels of Lawrence King and Shanesha Stewart, the granting of a manslaughter verdict in the murder of Victor Manious, the recent battery of a transwoman in police custody, and a questionable shooting during San Diego gay pride.

i've gotta run right now, or i'd do it myself:

could you please wrangle a couple links to articles about the examples you cite? if there are those in this thread who are unaware, i think it would be great if there could be links here that people could follow to find out more.

thanks. (and if you don't have time either, i'll come back later tonight).
posted by CitizenD at 2:58 PM on July 28, 2008


This is a combination of nut-job plus right-wing radio.

I wouldn;t focus too much on the right wing radio aspect either. This is really not that different from Virginia Tech or the Capitol Hill shootings in Seattle. Paying too much attention to the justifications crazy people give when they do crazy things can be a mistake, their heads are full of noise anyway, so they can be the last people to know why they did something, and whatever reason they give is usually some bullshit anyhow.
posted by Artw at 3:04 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


The Loch Ness Monster: Calling it terrorism is just borrowing the lexicon of the right; they want us to believe that terrorists are everywhere, under every rock and behind every tree, and they use it as an excuse to shred the bill of rights. Terrorists are not everywhere. This is a combination of nut-job plus right-wing radio.

see, i disagree. frankly, i really wish i had entitled this post "an american terrorist in knoxville."

i agree, generally, with your characterization of the fear that right wingers try to create/foment by carrying on about ter'rusts. but the thing is -- they're not actually talking about terrorism. they're talking about muslims, brown people and other "enemies of america." they're trying to suggest that ALL muslims, or ALL brown people, are enemies of freedom and our 'way of life' (side note: i'm still trying to figure THAT one out).

so, by identifying this murderer as a terrorist, i'm trying to reclaim the word terrorist. right wing hate mongers would NEVER use the word terrorist to describe a white american male.* and i think that's wrong.

to me, this incident is about the most clear example of a hate crime that i've ever seen. perhaps even moreso than matthew shepard's murder. because this guy went into that church NOT to kill one specific gay person, but to TERRORIZE all of the church members -- and anyone 'out there' who identifies with them -- because of their beliefs.

and that terror is evidenced here in this thread. there are a number of people who have expressed fear for their loved ones who also attend UU churches in small, conservative places. THAT is the kind of response that TERRORISTS try for.

*later tonight, i'm going to try to prove/disprove this statement by seeing if any of the right wing hate mongers ever called tim lavey a terrorist for his attack in oklahoma city. my point is this: right wing hate mongers are incapable of recognizing that there are terrorists in their own midst - not the least of which are the 'pro-life' activists who killed several abortion doctors.
posted by CitizenD at 3:09 PM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


vsync: I'll agree with you that it is certainly intercourse, and that in my mind rape is violence, and sex is something else. Call it the difference between shaving and slitting your throat, if you want, though I realize that's not a perfect definition.

More to the point I was trying to make is that prison rape is primarily committed by men who would identify as straight. I'm sure they enjoy getting off and all, but they'd be getting it from a woman if they could, and they are raping other inmates because it shows the "power" they hold over them. That does not make any of the parties involved "gay." As Red says in Shawshank Redemption, "they'd have to be human first, and they don't qualify." (note: I'm not saying that rapists aren't human, though I certainly have a hell of a lot less respect for them as a group than for, say, gays and lesbians as a group.)

To put it another way, prison rape may very well = sodomy, but sodomy doesn't necessarily = gay sex. Or maybe I just have too much respect for good, hot, honest, loving sex to allow rape to be so easily placed under the same umbrella.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:15 PM on July 28, 2008


And I know a few gay people that aren't liberals delmoi. So don't stereo type people. Now they aren't conservative either, probably Libertarian. Or something along those lines.

Whether they are personally liberal or not is beside the point, it was liberals who helped change society to be more inclusive of gays. It's similar with African Americans, there are conservative blacks, but it was liberals who engaged with the civil rights movement and changed society in the civil rights era, and conservatives who fought against it.

Plus, the 'cancel out' idea would leave the world unchanged, or it would mean change without debate and argument. Both would be pretty bad. Whenever senators on capital hill talk about "bipartisanship" it means they're getting ready to screw you. When things are debated and, yes, argued about, you get better results (IMO).

It's only a problem for little whiners who would rather see oppression, or poverty, or economic malfeasance, or government criminality, or torture, wiretapping, or wars, ineffective disaster relief, global warming, environmental degredation, etc, etc, then have their pretty little ears hurt by listening to people who disagree with eachother.

Anyway:

Metafilter: rape is a problem, not a solution.
posted by delmoi at 3:19 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


i'm trying to reclaim the word terrorist. - I'm not sure describing every nut-job who goes off on a shooting spree and then suicides by cop as a "terrorist" would reall help much with that cause.
posted by Artw at 3:23 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Wow, the mainstream media are totally glossing over the gay-hatred aspect of this.

If it was a congregation of black people, or a synagogue shot up by a white supremacist, that might be newsworthy. But why should the press care about a bunch of librul faggots getting what they deserve?


YEAH! AND A BUNCH OF THOSE FOLKS KEPT AND LOVED PETS! WHY ARE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA GLOSSING OVER THE ANIMAL CRUELTY ASPECTS OF THIS?

SOME OF THEM FOLKS DROVE FORDS! WHY ARE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA GLOSSING OVER THE ANTI-INTERNAL COMBUSTION ASPECTS OF THIS?

summa yew peeple are loons.
posted by quonsar at 3:24 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


CitizenD: Certainly

The Lawrence King shooting has its own wikipedia article, but it feels like getting repeatedly punched in the gut with each new development leading up to a Newsweek article that tries to explain the shooting by digging deep into the sexual and gender orientation of King and school staff. I figure that sooner or later, we will have the expose that treats every support group of this UU congregation as a form of in-your-face flaunting of community values.

In contrast Shanesha Stewart has gotten little attention outside from blogs. As with the Shorty Hall case it seems to have dropped off the headlines.

A jury handed down a voluntary manslaughter charge against Stephen Scarborough tacitly accepting the defense that Scarborough was so offended by an advance by Manious that hitting him in the head, dumping the unconscious body in the trunk of a car, and going on a vacation using Manious's credit cards was just a case of sudden heat. Evidence that Scarborough and his partner cruised gay bars for potential marks for robbery was excluded from the trial.

Duanna Johnson was beaten by Memphis police while in custody, possibly for objecting to being called a "faggot" or "he/she." The tape was recently released due to an ongoing investigation. I thought it was more recent.

Steven Hirschfield was shot by police in an incident with open questions about Hirschfield's actions and potential bias.

There have been a few other cases that pop to mind that I can't seem to track down, probably because I can't seem to get the magic google-fu around it.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 3:24 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


Regarding Astro Zombie's note about it being incomprehensible why "my food stamps are being cut off" leads to "kill the liberals":

I know someone very like this (minus, thankfully, the actual "kill" part). He will rage and rage, at the slightest provocation, about the "welfare queens", and various epithets I won't repeat here, "stealing" "his" "taxpayer money" (that's probably the most "air quoted" things I've ever strung together). They're all lazy, good for nothing, never try to get a job, blah blah blah.

Meanwhile, in the next breath, he will rage and rage that his welfare check was a day late, and that it's not enough money.

The facts are that he is the laziest man that I personally know, and for the past, oh, two decades or so he has at best had infrequent on-and-off part time jobs - think five hours a week on a good week - and seems not to try to improve upon that. In fact, I'm not exactly sure how welfare works, but I have heard him say things that seem to indicate that he tries to not get employed enough to cut off his welfare.

Then, he will rage and rage about how it's the liberals' fault, and the Democrats' fault. What is "it"? Everything. Including the fact that his welfare check is a day late, and not enough money. Point out to him that if the Republicans had their way, he wouldn't be getting a welfare check at all, and you're in for some more raging and raging, without your point being addressed or even acknowledged.

He votes. He votes at every opportunity. And he votes Republican.

The following is a direct quote from him, upon being asked why he votes Republican (this question was asked while he was in the middle of a tirade, and apparently took him momentarily offguard):

"I don't know."

And then, almost immediately, he started yelling again, about how he proudly votes Republican. And about how his welfare check isn't enough. And about how the lazy fucks on welfare are stealing his hard-earned money.

The dichotomy is a strange mixture of shocking and sad. Plus, believe me, I'm all for letting people vote, but, at a gut level, the fact that his vote cancels mine sickens me.
posted by Flunkie at 3:24 PM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


CitizenDPoster: "they are a *liberal* Christian church -- which means that, among other things, they're not about to go around judging other peoples' churchs as to whether they're christian or not."

This long-time UU is definitely not a Christian as I am an atheist and the majority of UUs that I know are not Christians either. Some UUs do identify as Christian but there are Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists etc. The UU church is non-creedal and does not require any specific belief of its members.
posted by octothorpe at 3:26 PM on July 28, 2008


I'm not sure describing every nut-job who goes off on a shooting spree and then suicides by cop as a "terrorist" would reall help much with that cause.

The man walked into a church and started killing people because he hated the fearful practice of tolerance that they were preaching. His action will likely make people afraid to go to UU churches in redstates for some period of time.

Granted, the man's motives are probably muddled by mental illness, but I'm not sure what definition of "terrorism" doesn't include this action.
posted by gurple at 3:26 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


artw: Paying too much attention to the justifications crazy people give when they do crazy things can be a mistake, their heads are full of noise anyway, so they can be the last people to know why they did something, and whatever reason they give is usually some bullshit anyhow.

i think your comparisons are facile and your conclusion is a bit weak.

first of all, we don't know anything about the murderer in this case, beyond the fact that he was unemployed, on food stamps and that he hated the liberal movement. we dont' know if he was mentally ill or not.

but, even if he WAS mentally ill, why does that mean we should discount his clearly-stated motivations for this crime?

he had 4-page manifesto which was all about why he hated the liberal movement. in some of the message boards, people who identify themselves as members of the TVUU church say that his wife (who had a protection order against him) was a member; other board comments say that that the foster child of greg mckendry, the first fatal victim, is an underage FTM transexual. it seems at least possible that the murderer was capable of rational thought, and chose *this* church and *this* day for a reason.

personally, i think it's a mistake (echoing your word choice, above) to just write this guy off as some crazy whack-job.
posted by CitizenD at 3:27 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


This long-time UU is definitely not a Christian as I am an atheist and the majority of UUs that I know are not Christians either. Some UUs do identify as Christian but there are Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists etc. The UU church is non-creedal and does not require any specific belief of its members.

That said, though, some of them still very much retain the trappings of Protestant Christianity -- hymns to Jesus, crosses everywhere, Christian rituals, etc. My UU church in my youth was pretty far from that, and at some point, we visited the big Christian-leaning one in Boston, and in comparison, the Boston Church felt like some kind of Bizzarro Catholicism to my pagan ass.
posted by Greg Nog at 3:30 PM on July 28, 2008


I don’t even think gun control is possible in America, but really people who are for maximalised gun ownership really ought to man-up and own this kind of thing as the cost of the societal settings they advocate.

Sure, so long as people who are for minimalized gun ownership will man-up and own yet another endless War On Something as the cost of the societal settings they advocate. In America, at least, this is not an issue with easy answers.

Personally, I am pro-gun, and am quite up-front about accepting gun deaths as a natural consequence of the widespread existence of guns (legal or not), just as we accept car deaths as a natural consequence of widespread car ownership. Viewed this way, it's obvious that the core problem is one of minimizing violence, not minimizing gun ownership. After all, this kind of thing still happens in countries with strong gun control. You just can't legislate people's pain away, and sometimes the wounded lash out. IMHO, if saving lives is really the goal, then mental health and social support ought to be much bigger issues in this country than gun control. Our problem with violence is socially endemic. It requires social solutions, not laws which put the blame on inanimate objects. That goes double when the vast majority of said objects do no harm!

That said, I don't see how this particular case has much to do with gun control, one way or the other. This guy used a shotgun, a sporting arm which even the most pro-gun-control Americans have never seriously considered banning. Even under the most prohibitive American gun-control laws, this man would still have owned the gun he used in this crime; it's legal to own a shotgun even in England and Japan, two of the most restrictive nations in the world with regards to gun ownership. And in this case, the shooter was stopped swiftly, so I'm not sure if it makes sense to argue that armed citizens might have stopped him faster.

This is simply a tragedy; kudos to the brave people who stood up and stopped this man.
posted by vorfeed at 3:31 PM on July 28, 2008 [11 favorites]


artw: (quoting me)i'm trying to reclaim the word terrorist. -

artw:I'm not sure describing every nut-job who goes off on a shooting spree and then suicides by cop as a "terrorist" would reall help much with that cause.

but that's not what i did, is it?

indeed, *you* are the one who tried to compare this incident to virginia tech and the DC sniper.
posted by CitizenD at 3:31 PM on July 28, 2008


DC Sniper

Er, what? Where?

And how is Virginia Tech terrorism?

His action will likely make people afraid to go to UU churches in redstates for some period of time.

They may or may not feel that way. It would speak well of them if they kept on going to church exactly as before. Unless any evidence emerges of some kind of organized effiort to make people scared and not go to UU churches then invoking terrorism here is as much of a phantom threat as anything a right wing talk show host dreams up.

This is a terrible event or a kind that is infrequent but entirely explicable. There’s no need to make a conspiracy theory out of it.
posted by Artw at 3:38 PM on July 28, 2008


SOME OF THEM FOLKS DROVE FORDS! WHY ARE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA GLOSSING OVER THE ANTI-INTERNAL COMBUSTION ASPECTS OF THIS?

Christ, what an asshole.
posted by fleetmouse at 3:43 PM on July 28, 2008 [12 favorites]


I'm not sure describing every nut-job who goes off on a shooting spree and then suicides by cop as a "terrorist" would reall help much with that cause.

On the other hand, we have this specific nut-job going off on a shooting spree on the ideological behest of the Rush Limbaughs, Ann Coulters and Michael Savages who openly call for violence against anyone they perceive as liberal enemies.

Adkisson's actions are terrorism in name and spirit, even if the mainstream media and government would prefer not to admit right-wing terrorism exists. By actively discouraging coverage of the details surrounding this act of right-wing domestic terrorism -- again, calling it what it is -- the mainstream media is simply maintaining the editorial status quo.

There’s no need to make a conspiracy theory out of it.

No one is making this a conspiracy, as this is a "conspiracy" inasmuch as Muslim fundamentalist terrorists similarly derive their ideology from decentralized leadership.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:51 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


artw: apologies -- i misquoted you (you cited seattle and i mis-remembered it as DC)

you wrote: This is really not that different from Virginia Tech or the Capitol Hill shootings in Seattle.

and i responded to your grouping of these three crimes together. so, before it goes any further:

artw:And how is Virginia Tech terrorism?

i didn't suggest that virginia tech was an act of terrorism.

in fact, i find no reason whatsoever to compare this crime with either virginia tech or the capitol hill shootings.
**********

you wrote: They may or may not feel that way. It would speak well of them if they kept on going to church exactly as before.

as i noted earlier, at least 4 people in this thread have already expressed this fear on behalf of their loved ones. how many does it take, in your opinion, before it's a 'conspiracy'? before it's worth paying attention to?

and...what the?!?!?!? "it would speak well of them if they kept on going to church..." ??? are you trying to suggest that people who are fearful, after having heard about this crime, should be ashamed of themselves? why would it "speak well of them" for them to deny a perfectly rational response to a terrible tragedy?

look, i'm not trying to make some big sweeping generalization about crime in america. all i'm suggesting is that with THIS murderer in THIS crime, his ACTIONS -- and his clearly stated MOTIVATIONS for his actions -- qualify as being labelled terrorist.
posted by CitizenD at 3:56 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


The local media have now published information from his police interview in which he clearly stated that he did this because he believed that liberals have ruined America.

I wonder how the right wing hatemongers are going to handle this. To avoid being blamed, they will have to claim that he is insane. But in doing so, they will be claiming that it is insane to believe that liberals have destroyed America.
posted by wadefranklin at 3:59 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


i find no reason whatsoever to compare this crime with either virginia tech or the capitol hill shootings.

I'd say that was the result of overfocusing on that this one guys special little mission - and all these types have a special little mission in their head - involved this one specific group and not some other group.
posted by Artw at 3:59 PM on July 28, 2008




No matter what kind of wingnut you are, you don't just go around shooting your ideological nemeses

Yeah, right, tell it to European Jews mid-20th century.

This statement is the kind of desperate, arrant bullshit trotted out to pretend that ideologies can never have a downside. Well, they fucking do. When a bunch of people crank up a rhetoric of hate and murder, others will listen, and, sooner or later, act.

This is why Germany has all those laws against glorifying Nazism that people in the US love to ridicule.
posted by rodgerd at 4:03 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


I wonder how the right wing hatemongers are going to handle this.
They're going to do what they always do: Poo-poo it off, explain it away, brush it under the rug, and then back to hatemongering.
posted by Flunkie at 4:04 PM on July 28, 2008


To avoid being blamed, they will have to claim that he is insane. But in doing so, they will be claiming that it is insane to believe that liberals have destroyed America.

Compared to some of the bilge I've heard spewing out of Savage's and Hannity's mouths, that will be a parlor trick.
posted by gurple at 4:08 PM on July 28, 2008


a quote from wadefranklin's link:

"During the interview Adkisson stated that he had targeted the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were a ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country's hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of major media outlets. Adkisson made statements that because he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement that he would then target those that had voted them in to office. Adkisson stated that he had held these beliefs for about the last ten years. Adkisson made statements that he had pre-planned this shooting and had began writing the letter for the last week," the search warrant reads." (emphases mine)

+

terrorist (ter-er-ist) noun: a person who tries to frighten people or governments into doing what he/she wants by using or threatening violence

=

"an american terrorist in knoxville."
posted by CitizenD at 4:10 PM on July 28, 2008 [7 favorites]


posted by rodgerd This is why Germany has all those laws against glorifying Nazism that people in the US love to ridicule.

Well, they're idiotic and deserve to be ridiculed.
posted by optovox at 4:10 PM on July 28, 2008


I take your point, CitizenD, and I agree with much of it. I agree with it wholeheartedly as relates to Timothy McVeigh and so-called pro-life activists, though Fox News does in fact refer to the Oklahoma bombing as a terrorist act. But I get your point anyway, and I agree that most neocons would use the words "terrorist" and "muslim" interchangeably and that's messed up.

However, I think the question here (regarding whether to call this an act of terrorism) is whether he was acting rationally. I can only speculate, but it seems like he was not. I also wouldn't call the Virginia Tech shootings a terrorist act; the guy was unhinged. And the fact that people are feeling terror doesn't necessarily mean it's a terrorist act, either. A hurricane may cause terror, for example.

At any rate, I think we mostly agree-- it's just an issue of semantics.

I think the bigger issue here is the right-wing noise machine: all day, every day, they are spewing their nonsense. People in my family whom I consider to be otherwise smart and decent will flip out in the middle of a completely non-political discussion and talk about how liberals have ruined their lives, and they get it directly from right wing talk radio and Fox. I agree with some of the comments upthread like sotonohito's; I would bet much money that if you went to this guy's truck and turned on the radio you would hear Rush Limbaugh's or Sean Hannity's voice coming out of it.

So we have a bunch of assholes doing their best to convince everyone that everything bad is the fault of liberals, nevermind that this line of thinking doesn't square with their mantra of "personal responsibility." We have a bad economy, which is pushing everyone to his or her own personal breaking point, whatever form that breaking point may take. And we have a cracked jackass with an apartment full of guns.

I'm not sure what the solution is. I'm not crazy about the idea of forcibly muzzling them unless they're directly advocating violence. (Pope Guilty mentioned Coulter, and I would be interested to see how many times she has said that someone should go shoot a liberal.) But there's no law that can be passed to make people stop acting like assholes. A better economy would make this less likely to happen, and tighter gun laws or gun law enforcement might help (though bombs aren't that hard to make), but in the end I think it's going to take society losing its tolerance for hate-media and a general shift in the mood of the country. I think we're on that path, though unfortunately I think it's largely due to Bush driving people away from the right more than it is people coming to the left.
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 4:11 PM on July 28, 2008


From octothorpe's link:

Adkisson targeted the church, Still wrote in the document obtained by WBIR-TV, Channel 10, "because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country's hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of media outlets."

Adkisson told Still that "he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement that he would then target those that had voted them in to office."

Adkisson told officers he left the house unlocked for them because "he expected to be killed during the assault."

Inside the house, officers found "Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder" by radio talk show host Michael Savage, "Let Freedom Ring" by talk show host Sean Hannity, and "The O'Reilly Factor," by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly.

The shotgun-wielding suspect in Sunday's mass shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church was motivated by a hatred of "the liberal movement," and he planned to shoot until police shot him, Knoxville Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV said this morning.

Adkisson, 58, of Powell wrote a four-page letter in which he stated his "hatred of the liberal movement," Owen said. "Liberals in general, as well as gays."

posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:13 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Oops. My recent comment was in response to CitizenD's comment here. Guess I have some catching up to do.
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 4:14 PM on July 28, 2008


Personally, I am pro-gun, and am quite up-front about accepting gun deaths as a natural consequence of the widespread existence of guns (legal or not), just as we accept car deaths as a natural consequence of widespread car ownership.

I grew up in a semi-rural area where guns were very much accepted (I became a pretty good shot) but now I don't own any or have any interest in them. I also gave up driving, and try to stay out of cars as much as possible. I share your view that these two have dangerous similarities.
posted by telstar at 4:17 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


The thing is, we generally have not held such reservations over people like Eric Robert Rudolph or Theodore Kaczynski, who are clearly identified as politically-motivated terrorists who apparently acted without the aid of an extensive support network.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 4:24 PM on July 28, 2008


The Loch Ness Monster: I'm not crazy about the idea of forcibly muzzling them unless they're directly advocating violence.

Well, I don't know who is advocating forcibly muzzling people. It would be nice if the bellicose eliminationists on the right met the same fate as their elder blackshirt cousins when the consequences of the rhetoric became painfully clear.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 4:34 PM on July 28, 2008




This is a combination of nut-job plus right-wing radio.

Of course he's not a terrorist. He's white and probably voted for Bush.
posted by eriko at 4:43 PM on July 28, 2008


Now that the gay sex/prison rape thing is hopefully out of the way, I do have a more than a few thoughts on the actual subject at hand (not that any of y'all were really holding your breath or anything...)

First and foremost: this was the work of a madman. Rational people do not, in my book, hide a shotgun in a guitar case, walk into a house of worship, and then try to murder whoever is inside, for reasons that they themselves can only explain as "hating the liberals," and in case anyone skipped over this part of the thread earlier, trying at first to commit this crime where there would be the most children present. This man was a madman.

That does not, however, mean that it wasn't also terrorism.

To claim that the two cannot coexist pays a weird sort of respect to whomever you then classify as terrorists. Like saying, "this guy was crazy, not like those guys who hijacked planes to crash them into the world trade center, killing thousands of people they didn't know and themselves as well because of their hatred for America's presence in Saudi Arabia and support of Israel, or those guys who parked moving trucks full of fertilizer in front of a federal building to kill everyone inside because of their hatred for the federal government. No, they had political reasons, just as the non-terrorist crazy-man did, but they were sane. For some reason." Having mental issues doesn't preclude one from being a terrorist. In fact, I'd argue that it's probably a requirement. Adkisson's M.O. was to kill as many "liberal" UU's as possible, because they were liberal, before getting killed by the police. That's insane, and also the M.O. of a terrorist.

Moving on, while I've never been to a UU service (I don't think so, at least) I've been to quite a few services at the Universal Christian church that my parents go to in Crested Butte, CO. I'm an athiest, kind of, or maybe a hard-leaning agnostic with more Secular Humanist ideology, whatever. This wonderful church, relentlessly liberal, makes a point about welcoming absolutely everyone, and if Jew or Muslims are to come in, and make themselves known, than the church would find a way to include everyone in Jewish or Islamic showings of worship as well. While this particular church is certainly based in Christianity, it's central tenet is at least similar to UU: "God loves all humans equally and unconditionally, and will see them all in the afterlife, in which there is no hell." Not exactly the same, but it still respects all of humanity the same.

I say this to say that I have some idea of the people in the UU church in Knoxville, and am horrified at the idea that anyone on earth would think that the world would be somehow better without them. These people are amazing, joyous, peaceful, caring people who go to this house of worship every week to celebrate all of creation and share in wisdom of how to make the world better for everyone in it. I can't even wrap my mind around it, except that I kind of can...

Much like the best clubs in New York back during the 70's, radical-right-rhetoric "always has another room." If you point out that the person whining about their welfare check only gets that welfare check because of the Democrats, they can come back and say that welfare queens are robbing the system. If you tell them that they themselves are, in fact, also gaming the system, they can come back with the fact that the Mexicans are stealing all of their jobs. If you tell them that the Mexicans are doing jobs that no other American will do, they'll come back, through a sort of non-sequitor, to the idea that the Gays are destroying the fundamental American and Family values that used to teach people work ethics. And so on. There's always someone else to blame. And if you find someone imbalanced at the end of their rope, that means there's always someone to try to kill. And the one's teaching them who to blame are Rush, Coulter, Hannity et al.

However, I don't lay the blame for this entirely at the feet of Right-wing Talk Radio. If anything, I'd say that they are contributorily negligent in preaching that this kind of action would be just, you know, awesome! Just what the country needs! Still, I doubt they wanted this, because they don't care about any single person aside from themselves, and this has made their jobs harder. They didn't give a shit about these UU's in Knoxville while they were alive, and now all they know about them is that they've been murdered because of Right-wing ideology. Their thoughts today are probably much more along the lines of "why did that dumbfuck have to kill those liberals inside a damned church!?" than, "Way to go, Adkisson!" But they're still evil, and their rhetoric gave rise to this. I'm just not willing to lay blame where there was no intent.

Finally, I served my time as a born-again Christian in my teen years, and served that time pretty passionately and fervently. The Youth Group I was involved in was very conservative (this was Oklahoma during the Clinton years, after all) and I remained an outspoken liberal, but instead of being outcast for my views, I was embraced and propped up as one of the heads of the group, for having a different viewpoint on matters. I've been to my share of "True Love Waits" rallies and the like to know that, while red-state conservative Christians have a vastly different set of priorities than I had then, and certainly now, they were generally good people trying to learn to live well. I know that a lot of churches, and presumably whatever one Adkisson rejected, aren't like that, but the point I'm trying to make is that I disagree with Conservatives, and I disagree with most Christians, but in general, they're just people. People with different experiences than my own trying to make it through the day.

When I see some people in this thread pointing to this incident, and then imagining that others would potentially do the same because they are conservative, it strikes me much the same way as when Republicans try to connote Islam with terrorism. Most of us here aren't Muslim just as most of us here aren't Christian, and I bet we have about as many problems with the way Islam is used for sometimes murderous political ends in the Middle east as with the way Christianity (or conservatism) is used the same way here, but further generalization and vitriol just leads to more of the same, and it certainly isn't Unitarian Universalist. It doesn't get to the problem, and the division only exacerbates it.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:43 PM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


Maralyn Manson, videogames, The Matrix
posted by Artw at 4:43 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


CitizenD, I agree with your definition. If it turns out this guy was thinking rationally, I would classify him as a terrorist. If he's a nutter, I would not classify him as a terrorist. Like I said before, the only issue is whether he's mentally ill.

KirkJobSluder: Well, I don't know who is advocating forcibly muzzling people

Me, in my own head.

Me: "Let's forcibly muzzle those jackasses."

Me: "No, you can't be doing that unfortunately."
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 4:48 PM on July 28, 2008


I used to attend a UU church in San Pablo, MN, and a guest minister once told the story of Tommy Corcoran moving to Washington to become Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes's law clerk. In those days, law clerks actually lived with the justice they served. When Tommy showed up at the Holmes's home, he was politely interviewed by Mrs. Holmes, who inquired about his religious affiliation, among other personal information. After replying that he was an Irish Catholic, he asked what religion the Holmes practiced. When told that they were Unitarians, he said he had never heard of this sect and asked what they believed. Mrs. Holmes replied:

"Young man, we are from Boston. In Boston, you must be something, and Unitarian is the LEAST you can be."
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:53 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list

I know those are books, but couldn't this be brought up with the FCC? I'd love to see a grassroots movement with this incident as a rallying point.
posted by furtive at 4:55 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


I know those are books, but couldn't this be brought up with the FCC? I'd love to see a grassroots movement with this incident as a rallying point.

I'm a fan of free speech, myself. After the suggestion of punitive anal rape in prison, I think that's the second-worst idea I've heard in this thread. Admittedly, it's a distant second.
posted by gurple at 4:58 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


If it turns out this guy was thinking rationally, I would classify him as a terrorist. If he's a nutter, I would not classify him as a terrorist. Like I said before, the only issue is whether he's mentally ill.
Is the Unabomber not mentally ill? Or not a terrorist?
posted by Flunkie at 4:59 PM on July 28, 2008


Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list

posted by furtive I know those are books, but couldn't this be brought up with the FCC? I'd love to see a grassroots movement with this incident as a rallying point.


A rallying point for what, exactly? And what would be the mission statement of this movement?
posted by optovox at 5:02 PM on July 28, 2008


Amusing stories aside, those who would like to say either the guy was crazy or was a politically motivated right-wing bigot are creating a false dichotomy. Choosing to kill is evidence of irrationality, because logically this activity will never lead to the result a right-wing bigot would want, which is to eliminate all liberals or cow them into inactivity. It is possible to be both a right-wing bigot and crazy (some would say it helps). Having mental health issues doesn't get the right-wing off the hook for this mad man's well documented obsession with the hate-filled rhetoric of the dumbed-down right (Windbag, O'Really, Robbers-son, Cold-Tar and the rest). His possession of literature from the "mainstream" of this thought is evidence that he felt a part of its philosophy and traditions. If anything, the intellectual right is to be faulted for bedding down with this misshapen cousin of conservativism that has been cultivated by the oh-so-clever strategists who banked on their vote for the brief conservative era now ending.
posted by Mental Wimp at 5:06 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


This thread is all over the place and there are so many things that could be said but I'll confine myself to:

.

For the dead and the wounded.
posted by Morrigan at 5:09 PM on July 28, 2008 [5 favorites]


Yep, the best solution to random gun violence is more guns.
posted by jamstigator at 5:11 PM on July 28, 2008


Flunkie: Is the Unabomber not mentally ill? Or not a terrorist?

I don't think the Unabomber was mentally ill, was he? (reads wikipedia) Yes, he was a paranoid schizophrenic. So, yes. Kaczynski is obviously a case of someone being both. All I can say is that I find myself bristling at labeling things terrorism which are not terrorism, and this feels to me more like some guy snapping than an act of terrorism. As the definition of terrorism is malleable, and has been made ever more malleable in the past decade, there's really no answering this question definitively, and anyway none of us knows jack about this guy so we don't know if he's crazy or sane (though I get your argument that the issue of his sanity doesn't matter).

I am much more interested in the role that right wing media played in this incident and the question of what's to be done about it. I'm not crazy about the hate speech laws that are so common in Europe; I think the best thing is to set up a situation where people aren't reaching their breaking points so easily and working toward setting up a public conversation via media that renders Limbaugh and crew impotent.
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 5:16 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Yep, the best solution to random gun violence is more guns.

There was nothing random about this.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:20 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


And this here is one more thing wrong with modern journalism that just drives me nuts, which I noticed when I went to CNN's home page. "Shooting 'suspect'". Suspect? WTF? Nobody SUSPECTS him of anything. We all KNOW he did it. Witnesses saw him do it, the forensic evidence says he did it, and *HE* says he did it. Does CNN need a papal decree to finalize it or what?
posted by barc0001 at 5:23 PM on July 28, 2008


barc0001, this is still America, he's innocent until proven guilty.
posted by octothorpe at 5:25 PM on July 28, 2008


Does CNN need a papal decree to finalize it or what?

The 9/11 hijackers were never "suspects" as far as I recall.
posted by Mental Wimp at 5:25 PM on July 28, 2008


Does CNN need a papal decree to finalize it or what?

No. It needs a guilty verdict.
posted by mr_roboto at 5:28 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


What's the over/under on Ann Coulter making a joke within the next 48 hours about the shooter being guilty of nothing more than poor aim?
posted by scody at 5:31 PM on July 28, 2008 [11 favorites]


I'm not saying that I wouldn't lean that way too, but I'm finding it a little amusing that so many people on Metafilter assume that "right wing media" is (at least part) to blame. After all, isn't it usually right wingers that like to blame television and radio and music for these outcomes?
posted by agregoli at 5:34 PM on July 28, 2008


I am a Unitarian Universalist.

Here are our principles:

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Unitarian Universalism (UU) draws from many sources:

* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
* Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

These principles and sources of faith are the backbone of our religious community.
posted by kalessin at 5:35 PM on July 28, 2008 [10 favorites]


Xurando: Not the first shooting in a Unitarian-Universalist Church.

Well that's a pretty fucking depressing story.
posted by enn at 5:50 PM on July 28, 2008


fleetmouse said: "Having said that, this thread is reminding me that I've wanted to investigate Unitarian Universalism for a while now. Maybe this is a good time to attend a service. I respect a ministry whose only common bond is a search for truth. It sounds like all the best social aspects of religion with none of the nutty ick. Heh, I've always wanted to be able to say that I'm religious but not spiritual."

Yes, do! You'll be glad you did. I came to Unitarian Universalism for similar reasons, and my life is much richer for it.
posted by diogenes at 6:01 PM on July 28, 2008


octothorpe writes "This long-time UU is definitely not a Christian as I am an atheist and the majority of UUs that I know are not Christians either. Some UUs do identify as Christian but there are Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists etc. The UU church is non-creedal and does not require any specific belief of its members."

I'm kind of interested now. Would those who identify as UUs go minister to a guy who just shot up your church? If you answered yes, what exactly does ministering consist of and what is your goal in providing ministering service?

Mental Wimp writes "The 9/11 hijackers were never 'suspects' as far as I recall."

Dead people don't sue for slander/libel.
posted by Mitheral at 6:08 PM on July 28, 2008


I know those are books, but couldn't this be brought up with the FCC?

Since it doesn't involve, you know, radio waves or wires, No.
posted by delmoi at 6:10 PM on July 28, 2008


gurple writes "I'm a fan of free speech, myself."

Uh, is urging legions of audience members to commit murder really a fundamental right?
posted by mullingitover at 6:10 PM on July 28, 2008


agregoli: I'm not saying that I wouldn't lean that way too, but I'm finding it a little amusing that so many people on Metafilter assume that "right wing media" is (at least part) to blame. After all, isn't it usually right wingers that like to blame television and radio and music for these outcomes?

I think that's an important point, but I think there's a difference between what conservatives usually point to as "problem" media versus what we're talking about here. Some people in the right like to point to videogames and violent films, but I don't believe there is a real link to be found there. I frequently hear people refer to media which contains sexual content as directly harmful to anyone who might view it, but I have never heard actual evidence of that either and I don't believe it to be true.

In this case we have a group of pundits who have usurped the mainstream media who split all of their energy between advocating disastrous and regressive economic policies and making people believe that the cause of all their troubles is "liberals." In some cases they directly advocate violence. There is a world of difference between this and showing fictional violence in a movie.

Also different is the fact that I'm not suggesting right-wing media be censored (unlike calls from the right to ban films and movies). I'm suggesting they be rendered impotent first by improving the lot of the middle and lower classes so that it's less common for people to be pushed to their breaking point, second by making it socially unacceptable to consume that kind of media, and third by promoting, participating, and supporting high-road media.
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 6:11 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


'there has not been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11' Bullshit!
Bullshit indeed.

posted by kirkaracha at 6:16 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


Yes, because it's not as if they shoot gay or bisexual people in the cities, not one bit.


Indeed, that never happens. Especially in liberal Massachusetts!
posted by rollbiz at 6:23 PM on July 28, 2008


Uh, is urging legions of audience members to commit murder really a fundamental right?

I'm pretty sure that's already illegal. I think if you could prove that this guy heard some specific ideologue making a specific statement advocating political violence, you might have a case against them. I'm not sure.
posted by delmoi at 6:32 PM on July 28, 2008


Mitheral writes "I'm kind of interested now. Would those who identify as UUs go minister to a guy who just shot up your church? If you answered yes, what exactly does ministering consist of and what is your goal in providing ministering service?"

I wouldn't. I'm not even sure what that would entail. I definitely don't see what the point would be.
posted by diogenes at 7:08 PM on July 28, 2008


I'm pretty sure that's already illegal. I think if you could prove that this guy heard some specific ideologue making a specific statement advocating political violence, you might have a case against them. I'm not sure.

Given the books they just found, and the eliminationist materials contained therein, I'm betting a case could be made about inciting violence.
posted by electrasteph at 7:22 PM on July 28, 2008


Also? Smoking habit or white moustache: pick one.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:41 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


YEAH! AND A BUNCH OF THOSE FOLKS KEPT AND LOVED PETS! WHY ARE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA GLOSSING OVER THE ANIMAL CRUELTY ASPECTS OF THIS?

Yes, because the killer said he did it because they owned pets.

SOME OF THEM FOLKS DROVE FORDS! WHY ARE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA GLOSSING OVER THE ANTI-INTERNAL COMBUSTION ASPECTS OF THIS?

Yes, because the killer said he did it because they drive Ford cars.

Oh, wait. No, he said he did it because they are liberals and pro-gay and he explicitly said he believes they all should die.

Maybe you should just go back to stuffing fish in your pants and let the adults talk.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:44 PM on July 28, 2008 [9 favorites]


I am a pretty far left sort of person and, to make this clear, think that what happened here was a terrible thing.

However, I also believe that if we're willing to accept that the right wing media input this guy received was behind these shootings, we also need to accept that any media input - including video games, music and movies - when run through the mind of a crazy person is potentially responsible for the actions of crazy people.

In essence, if the idea is that right wing media gave this particular crazy guy the inspiration to take action, isn't it also plausible that Doom style video games did, in fact, inspire Columbine? Or Old Boy inspired the Virginia Tech massacre? Or that images of Columbine were the inspiration for a bunch of other school shootings?

I certainly think it is despicable when an Ann Coulter type calls for the deaths of liberals - or when certain folks on the left wish for the deaths of certain prominent conservatives - but, ultimately, it was this individual's choice that led to this massacre. Hundreds of thousands of other (presumably heavily armed) conservatives have heard these hateful messages and have not attacked liberal churches, just as hundreds of thousands of other (presumably violence loving) teenagers have played first person shooter games without taking out their high school classmates.

Anyhow, generally speaking, the lesson to be learned here, in my opinion, is one of the decency and bravery of the UU members. If your hope is to score anti-conservative political points here, playing up the very real courageous actions of the church members is likely to have a greater impact in the long run.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:54 PM on July 28, 2008 [4 favorites]


Alone, this proves nothing, since mental illness can easily express itself as intolerance. But I fear this will be historically noted as the first shot in the War on Liberalism, as thousands who are very like this shooter see "the President who represent their interests" being replaced by a Black Democrat and their "vision" of America falling to pieces (but they won't notice that it was a false facade all along). Add an impatience for the Rapture among some and a willingness to blame "sinners" for the economic malfeasance of the Ruling Class among others and you have factors coming together for an epidemic of 'incidents' like this that will dwarf the "school shooters", "disgruntled postal workers" and even the "Muslim terrorists" of past scare headlines. (Yes, I honestly expect the long-term death toll will easily exceed 9-11, a few victims at a time)

The Not-Quite-Big-But-Pretty-Large Lies and hate speech of the Right will bear their bitter fruit as those who claimed to be "looking out for you" while picking your pockets lose power and influence and the pent-up anger of a small but significant number of the deceived inevitably will be misdirected at those trying to fix injustices. But then, that is probably just the way they wanted it.

I wish this were not such an easy prediction to make. And I wish I knew how to defuse this string of grenades spread across this country. And I cannot take any solace in the possibility that "people will learn". People should've known a long time ago.
posted by wendell at 8:09 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


The following is a direct quote from him, upon being asked why he votes Republican (this question was asked while he was in the middle of a tirade, and apparently took him momentarily offguard):

"I don't know."

And then, almost immediately, he started yelling again, about how he proudly votes Republican. And about how his welfare check isn't enough. And about how the lazy fucks on welfare are stealing his hard-earned money.


That's politics right there, or that is what it has come to mean in the US (it's always part of it anyway). It's about being on a team, not really getting anything done or good government, getting used by the powerful and tricked into voting against their own interests. And people without power are attracted to those with power on their team. It's really easy to manipulate people like this, the so-called "low information voter." Long before any modern pollster used that term, Machiavelli figured it all out.

These people are not just found on the conservative side.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:31 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


These people are not just found on the conservative side.
I'm sure that's strictly true.
posted by Flunkie at 8:48 PM on July 28, 2008


However, I also believe that if we're willing to accept that the right wing media input this guy received was behind these shootings, we also need to accept that any media input - including video games, music and movies - when run through the mind of a crazy person is potentially responsible for the actions of crazy people.

I, personally, can accept that. But I believe the popular argument against violent media is that it will encourage the average user to be more violent.

Something like: All-American hormone addled teenagers + violent video games = violence crazed teenager.

Which, to me, is the objectionable premise. I would never argue that people who are already mentally unstable often use any sort of violent or dogmatic or, in their eyes, disagreeable media as justification.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:05 PM on July 28, 2008


However, I also believe that if we're willing to accept that the right wing media input this guy received was behind these shootings, we also need to accept that any media input - including video games, music and movies - when run through the mind of a crazy person is potentially responsible for the actions of crazy people.

Not unless those movies and video games actually instruct people to kill in real life, or foment hatred. There is a huge difference between watching people kill each other in pulp fiction and watching a propaganda film making a direct argument that you should kill people. There's a diffrence between playing grand theft auto where you kill game entities that are causing you problems in the game world, and reading a book where the author argue that your real life problems are caused by other real life people.
posted by delmoi at 9:06 PM on July 28, 2008 [3 favorites]


I'm sorry, that was terribly phrased. I am seconding your point.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:07 PM on July 28, 2008


There is a really stupid knee-jerk double-standard here in saying that games and movies have no effect and should not be criticized, while at the same time buying the idea that news media convinced millions of Americans that Iraq either had WMDs or assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks, thus paving the way for war, that a presidential candidate lied about his Vietnam record, or claimed to have invented the Internet.

Granted, I already Godwinized the thread a bit upstream, but the dominant rhetoric helps set the stochastic temperature of the culture. So you have fewer people willing to stick their neck out and speak up in in defense of themselves and their politics. Fewer chances that a person will get that critical reality check. More chances that the people who could avert a hate crime with a simple word will remain silent because it is someone else's problem. More chances that a person on a jury will hold out on reasonable doubt that the victim had it coming.

You all are debating individual data points while I'm looking at trend lines. A police officer smacks a transwoman with a pair of handcuffs, maces her, and the duty nurse ignores her and treats the officer. Stephen Scarborough locks an injured man into the trunk of his car, claims he panicked over the victim's sexuality, and gets voluntary manslaughter. A few weeks later, Brandon McInerney's lawyer makes the same argument to explain why his client shot Lawrence King. Newsweek runs an article which implicitly argues that King and his guidance councilor did not do enough to coddle McInerney's prejudice. And now, a guy targets a church explicitly for its liberal views.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:08 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


delmoi: Not unless those movies and video games actually instruct people to kill in real life, or foment hatred. There is a huge difference between watching people kill each other in pulp fiction and watching a propaganda film making a direct argument that you should kill people. There's a diffrence between playing grand theft auto where you kill game entities that are causing you problems in the game world, and reading a book where the author argue that your real life problems are caused by other real life people.

Well, I don't even accept this dichotomy. I don't think you can draw a nice cause/effect relationship between any media work and a specific action, not for The Bible, Mein Kampf, The Protocols, The Communist Manifesto or The Turner Diaries. And I think it's foolish to draw arbitrary lines in the sand and say that is propaganda, that is art, and this is just mindless entertainment.

People who defend games can't have it both ways. They can't on the one hand claim that their entertainment is culturally significant, and simultaneously throw a fit every time it's subjected to cultural and political criticism. One doesn't need a nice clean cause/effect relationship in order to look at the politics embedded and expressed by games.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:19 PM on July 28, 2008 [2 favorites]


I mean, dang. Can you imagine how stupid it would be if we subjected Frog Princess to the same kind of bullshit that's used to derail any critical discussion of games?
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:29 PM on July 28, 2008


mr_roboto: "Does CNN need a papal decree to finalize it or what?

No. It needs a guilty verdict.
"

Calling Pope Guilty! Pronounce judgement, please!
posted by symbioid at 9:32 PM on July 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


My UU church in my youth was pretty far from that, and at some point, we visited the big Christian-leaning one in Boston, and in comparison, the Boston Church felt like some kind of Bizzarro Catholicism to my pagan ass.

"Young man, we are from Boston. In Boston, you must be something, and Unitarian is the LEAST you can be."
"The Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA), founded in 1961 as a consolidation of the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church in America, is headquartered in Boston, Massachusetts, and serves churches mostly in the United States."*
Arlington Street Church
When standing at the rostrum of the Arlington Street Church, a preacher can look through the nave of the church beyond the open doors; beyond Arlington Street and lock eyes with those of the statue of William Ellery Channing (the Father of American Unitarianism). The stone likeness stands directly across from the church and on the edge (Arlington/Boylston) of the Boston Public Garden.
posted by ericb at 9:49 PM on July 28, 2008


.

(I haven't learned much about Linda Kraeger yet.) Greg McKendry was a foster parent to teens. As a (lapsed born & bred) UU, and a fellow foster parent to gay teens, I light my virtual candle to you. I am proud of you, of your example.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:21 PM on July 28, 2008


I usually avoid churches like the plague they are, but this thread is making me interested in UU. I will have to look into UU practices and maybe check out a meeting or two. I attended a Quaker memorial service some months ago and really appreciated how there was no "leader" and all who wanted to speak were given equal footing. Can I expect somewhat the same at a UU meeting?
posted by telstar at 11:56 PM on July 28, 2008


>Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church had "just put out a sign this week which says it welcomes gays."

I hope they keep the sign up.
posted by Flunkie at 2:50 PM

If it were my church, that sign would have been changed the same day. It would now read "We still welcome gays."
posted by perilous at 12:16 AM on July 29, 2008 [5 favorites]


Inside the house, officers found "Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder" by radio talk show host Michael Savage, "Let Freedom Ring" by talk show host Sean Hannity, and "The O'Reilly Factor," by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly.

GIGO.
posted by tetsuo at 3:28 AM on July 29, 2008 [4 favorites]


telstar wrote "I attended a Quaker memorial service some months ago and really appreciated how there was no "leader" and all who wanted to speak were given equal footing. Can I expect somewhat the same at a UU meeting?"


UU services aren't like Quaker meetings. We have a minister who leads the service, and the members sit in pews. Members have an opportunity to speak during the candle lighting part of the service, but we can't pipe up whenever we want like at a Quaker meeting. UU services vary quite a bit between congregations, so it's possible that some are more interactive.
posted by diogenes at 4:55 AM on July 29, 2008


What's the over/under on Ann Coulter making a joke within the next 48 hours about the shooter being guilty of nothing more than poor aim?

I have a strong feeling the spin is going to be something more like "Evil liberalism drove this man over the edge. He was literally driven mad by liberalism. And, while his actions were misguided and wrong, you can easily see the damage liberalism is doing to our country."
posted by Thorzdad at 5:32 AM on July 29, 2008


The spin Ive seen is that he was just crazy. I dont consider that an excuse. Everyone is unstable to some degree and the amount of borderline nutters is staggering. Egging them on with hate speech and conspiracy theories is the equivalent of yelling fire in a theater. This is also why I endorse a great deal of gun control legislation. Someday we'll accept how close most people are to losing their shit and act accordingly.
posted by damn dirty ape at 6:47 AM on July 29, 2008


And I think it's foolish to draw arbitrary lines in the sand and say that is propaganda, that is art, and this is just mindless entertainment.

It's very easy to draw a line between media that is fiction and entertainment, (e.g. violent movies and video games), and media that is (e.g. non-fiction and political, right wing radio and books).
posted by afu at 9:38 AM on July 29, 2008 [1 favorite]




I attended a Quaker memorial service some months ago and really appreciated how there was no "leader" and all who wanted to speak were given equal footing. Can I expect somewhat the same at a UU meeting?

No. I am a Quaker who is married to a UUer. They are programmed, and they have Reverends/Ministers. That is the reason I don't attend UU services regularly. However, depending on the UU congregation, there might be a smaller group within that worships in a more Quaker style.

I encourage you to look at joining a Quaker meeting, if our style of worship moves you. Like UU, the Quaker faith has a strong peace, justice, and service tradition, and gladly accepts all.

This is a UK FAQ, but it applies to the US meetings I've known, as well. Here is another FAQ.

If you want to know more about Quakers or UUs, let me know.
posted by sondrialiac at 9:59 AM on July 29, 2008


It's very easy to draw a line between media that is fiction and entertainment, (e.g. violent movies and video games), and media that is (e.g. non-fiction and political, right wing radio and books).

Really now, how do you classify Persepolis, Slaughterhouse Five, and the Left Behind series, to name works across the spectrum of politics that show how your "line" is little more than a stupid rationalization trying to arbitrarily shield some works from criticism?
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:58 AM on July 29, 2008


First it is stupid and hypocritical to say that Hannity and Limbaugh matter in shaping people's ideas, while Michael Bay and Rockstar Games don't matter. Flat earth stupid. Intelligent design stupid.

Second, my fellow gamers need to get over the stupid knee-jerk reflex defensiveness equates all criticism to Thompson/Gore censorship appeals. Seriously, one can love a game, love games as a genre, and be critical of the politics embedded in them.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:22 AM on July 29, 2008 [1 favorite]


"...Persepolis, Slaughterhouse Five, and the Left Behind series, to name works across the spectrum of politics..."

These are not political works, any of them. That some people use them for political ends is a distinction from other works, perhaps, but they certainly do not fit in the category of Franken's, Limbaugh's, or Coulter's work. Conflating them is a political act, in this case.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:32 AM on July 29, 2008 [1 favorite]


The spin Ive seen is that he was just crazy. I dont consider that an excuse. Everyone is unstable to some degree and the amount of borderline nutters is staggering. Egging them on with hate speech and conspiracy theories is the equivalent of yelling fire in a theater.

I'm all for getting wingnut jackoffs off the air, seriously, but I'd rather that happened because America suddenly and completely out of nowhere developed taste and critical thinking abilities, not because the left encountered one nutty, murderous asshole with a Bill O'Reilly book and used that person to pound on their ideological opponents with all the fervor of circa-mid-'80s Tipper Gore pouncing at Twisted Sister or whoever because some social mutant with a basement full of dismembered Girl Scouts owned one of their albums. That way lies one slippery motherfucking slope, and you may find yourself unhappy indeed with what's at the bottom of it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:29 PM on July 29, 2008 [1 favorite]


First it is stupid and hypocritical to say that Hannity and Limbaugh matter in shaping people's ideas, while Michael Bay and Rockstar Games don't matter. Flat earth stupid. Intelligent design stupid.

Yes, hours and hours of running around shooting aliens is just like hours and hours of listening to people talk about politics and how people who disagree deserve to die. That's some critical thinking right there.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:46 PM on July 29, 2008


KJS: you seem to be missing the difference between escapist works of fiction and, for want of a better word, right-wing propaganda.

Absolute Power: The Legacy of Corruption in the Clinton-Reno Justice Department, David Limbaugh
Animalscam: The Beastly Abuse of Human Rights, Kathleen Marquardt
At Any Cost: How Gore Tried to Steal the Election, Bill Sammon
Backfire: A Reporter’s Look at Affirmative Action, Bob Zelnick
Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of the Democratic Party, David Limbaugh
Betrayal: How the Clinton Administration Undermined American Security, Bill Gertz
Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News , Bernard Goldberg
The Bible Is History, Ian Wilson
Brighter than the Baghdad Sun: Saddam Hussein's Nuclear Threat to United States, Shyam Bhatia & Dan McGrory
The China Threat: The Plan to Defeat America, Bill Gertz, 2000
Dangerous Diplomacy: How the State Department Undermines America's Security, Joel Mowbray
Dereliction of Duty: The Eyewitness Account of How Bill Clinton Compromised America's National Security , Lt. Col. Robert "Buzz" Patterson
Disinformation: 22 Media Myths That Undermine the War on Terror, Richard Miniter
Epidemic: How Teen Sex Is Killing Our Kids , Meg Meeker
Facts, Not Fear: A Parent's Guide to Teaching Children About the Environment, Michael Sanera and Jane S. Shaw
Fidel: Hollywood’s Favorite Tyrant, Humberto Fontova
The Final Days: The Last, Desperate Abuses of Power by the Clinton White House, Barbara Olson
Freedomnomics: Why the Free Market Works and Other Half-Baked Theories Don’t, John R. Lott
Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption Into the Catholic Church, Michael S. Rose
Hell to Pay: The Unfolding Story of Hillary Rodham Clinton, Barbara Olson
High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton, Ann Coulter,
How to Prosper During the Hard Times Ahead: A Crash Course for the American Family in the Troubled New Millennium, Howard Ruff
Icons of Evolution: Science or Myth?, Jonathan Wells
In Defense of Internment: The Case for “Racial Profiling” in World War II and the War on Terror , Michelle Malkin
Inside the Asylum: Why the United Nations and Old Europe Are Worse Than You Think , Jed Babbin
Leftism Revisited: From de Sade and Marx to Hitler and Pol Pot, Eric von Kuehnelt-Leddihn
Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years , Rich Lowry
Losing bin Laden: How Bill Clinton's Failures Unleashed Global Terror , Richard Miniter
Madame Hillary: The Dark Road to the White House , R. Emmett Tyrrell, Jr. with Mark Davis
Men in Black: How the Supreme Court Is Destroying America, Mark R. Levin
The Millennium Bug: How to Survive the Coming Chaos, Michael S. Hyatt (1998)
Mugged by the State: Outrageous Government Assaults on Ordinary People and Their Property , Randall Fitzgerald
The Myth of Heterosexual Aids, Michael Fumento
The New Color Line: How Quotas and Privilege Destroy Democracy, Paul Craig Roberts and Lawrence Stratton
The Official Handbook of the Vast Right–Wing Conspiracy: The Arguments You Need to Defeat the Loony Left, Mark W. Smith
Outrage: How Gay Activists and Liberal Judges Are Trashing Democracy to Redefine Marriage, Peter Sprigg
Painting the Map Red: The Fight to Create a Permanent Republican Majority, Hugh Hewitt
The Party of Death: The Democrats, the Media, the Courts, and the Disregard for Human Life, Ramesh Ponnuru
Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity, David Limbaugh
Porn Generation: How Social Liberalism Is Corrupting Our Future, Ben Shapiro
Power Grab: How the National Education Association is Betraying Our Children, G. Gregory Moo
Professors: The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America, David Horowitz
Profscam: Professors and the Demise of Higher Education, Charles Sykes
The Real Jimmy Carter: How Our Worst Ex-President Undermines American Foreign Policy, Coddles Dictators, and Created the Party of Clinton and Kerry , Steven F. Hayward
Reckless Disregard: How Liberal Democrats Undercut Our Military, Endanger Our Soldiers, and Jeopardize Our Security , Lt. Colonel Robert "Buzz" Patterson
Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't, Robert Spencer
Sabotage: America's Enemies Within the CIA, by Rowan Scarborough
Showdown: Why China Wants War with the United States, Jed Babbin and Edward Timperlake
Shut Up & Sing: How Elites from Hollywood, Politics, and the UN Are Subverting America , Laura Ingraham
South Park Conservatives: The Revolt Against Liberal Media Bias, Brian C. Anderson
Strategery: How George W. Bush Is Defeating Terrorists, Outwitting Democrats, and Confounding the Mainstream Mediav, Bill Sammon
Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry , John E. O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi
Unhinged: Exposing Liberals Gone Wild, Michelle Malkin
Unholy Alliance: Radical Islam and the American Left , David Horowitz
Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First , Mona Charen
The West's Last Chance: Will We Win the Clash of Civilizations?, Tony Blankley
The Y2K Personal Survival Guide: Everything You Need to Know to Get from This Side of the Crisis to the Other, Michael S. Hyatt (1999)
Year of the Rat: How Bill Clinton Compromised U.S. Security for Chinese Cash, Edward Timperlake & William C. Triplett, II


As mentioned above, one leaves you fucked in the head and one doesn't.
posted by yort at 1:38 PM on July 29, 2008 [3 favorites]


Wolfenstein, Doom, Goths
posted by Artw at 2:03 PM on July 29, 2008


Mental Wimp: These are not political works, any of them.

Bullshit. Satrapi states her political thesis up front in the preface to Persepolis. Vonnegut does the same in the first chapter of Slaughterhouse Five. LaHaye has also been up-front about Left Behind as a political polemic.

That some people use them for political ends...

Including the authors who created those works? Doh!

...is a distinction from other works, perhaps, but they certainly do not fit in the category of Franken's, Limbaugh's, or Coulter's work. Conflating them is a political act, in this case.

But of course. No one is arguing that they should be conflated. The rhetorical structure of a call-in radio show is radically different from that of The Sims 2*. My argument is that its hypocritical, stupid, ludicrous even to hold the opinion that a radio show with an audience of millions is politically significant, while a game with an audience of millions is not. And its a double-standard that we don't apply in regards to cinema, television or comics.

Or to put it another way, why is it that we can have a conversation about the historic and possible future portrayal of ethnic minorities in Disney animated films, but we can't have a conversation about video games without having to perform the impossible task of proving an over-simplified cause-effect relationship between a specific game and a specific violent act?

Pope Guilty: Yes, hours and hours of running around shooting aliens is just like hours and hours of listening to people talk about politics and how people who disagree deserve to die. That's some critical thinking right there.

Well, I've not said that they are "just like." The rhetorical structure of Quake* is radically different from the rhetorical structure of the Rush Limbaugh Show. However, what has happened is that a ludicrous position "violent games directly cause violent behavior" has been countered with an equally ludicrous position, "games have no cultural impact at all" thus categorically rejecting any discussion of games as political rhetoric.

There is a position between these two extremes which is that we can talk about the politics embedded within games and engage in the same kinds of conversations that we take for granted when we talk about television, cinema, comics and literature. And certainly there is no obligation for you to participate in that kind of conversation, but the open hostility towards that kind of conversation even starting is quite frustrating. And most of us who do engage in these conversations do so out of a profound love for games and gaming.

yort: you seem to be missing the difference between escapist works of fiction and, for want of a better word, right-wing propaganda.
(cut bibliography spam)
As mentioned above, one leaves you fucked in the head and one doesn't.


Well, some escapist works of fiction are blatant right-wing propaganda. In fact, often the best propaganda has been couched in the form of fiction.

But I'm absolutely not saying that there is no difference between "escapist" media and non-fiction right-wing political rhetoric.

I'm saying that when Michael Bay devotes a large chunk of Transformers to the heroic actions of salt-of-the-earth American soldiers, or when Gaiman slips in a queer character into a fantasy, those are little political statements that we can talk about.

And "fucked in the head" strikes me as only slightly less Thompsonesque in its fearmongering than the same claims made about "escapist" media.

* I'll make the case that the relative lack of hard-coded gender roles and the ability to play same-sex relationships in The Sims 2 makes it a progressive game, and that has contributed to its success.

* The first-person shooter is a genre that lends its self to multiple political narratives.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 2:07 PM on July 29, 2008


Brown = Terrorism, obviously
posted by Artw at 2:11 PM on July 29, 2008


Or in shorter words. I'm in full agreement with the idea that right-wing pundits are contributing to a hostile environment in which violent hate crimes are more likely to happen.

I think its fucking stupid to make the claim that there is a hard line which makes right-wing propaganda the target of criticism, but not movies, games, fiction or music.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 2:31 PM on July 29, 2008


Delmoi's right: Well, this is what happens when you foment hatred and it's not just about the election.

The Right is all about winning at all costs. Rightwing radio hosts are all about hate, power & control, mockery, and meanness.

The Left feels directionless. We get that the traditional welfare state is gone, but we don't know how to present Liberal, Progressive ideas with a few phrases. Most people are more in agreement with Democratic policies, but vote for the candidate who seems more like the traditional autocratic leader. People are ready to jump on the latest catch-phrase condemning a one person with a cute saying.

If you watch teevee, you'll see lots of very popular shows that are all about mockery and meanness. I don't know why the US loves this, but they sure do. The guy acted out the collective unconscious, the hatred of those who are different, who challenge the status quo. We're so polarized, I can't imagine how we can still be one nation.
posted by theora55 at 3:00 PM on July 29, 2008


I think its fucking stupid to make the claim that there is a hard line which makes right-wing propaganda the target of criticism, but not movies, games, fiction or music.

Bullshit. When Im shooting up soldiers in BF2 I'm not walking away angry and any military and the cartoon-esque explosions are a pretty big hint that this is a childish diversion.

When I tune to right-wing radio all I hear about are current issues and how the right wants me to act. Never has BF2 made me think 'Yeah, I'll go join that protest' or "Damn democrats ruinining america."

I hate people with your attitude. I truly do. I hate the "Hey man, I was kidding, no need to be angry." Its the world's laziest cop-out. The right-wing voices and their billionaire backers are deadly serious. They get results.
posted by damn dirty ape at 3:44 PM on July 29, 2008 [1 favorite]


"I'm kind of interested now. Would those who identify as UUs go minister to a guy who just shot up your church? If you answered yes, what exactly does ministering consist of and what is your goal in providing ministering service?"

I know a woman in my church who certainly would. She would mostly make sure he's comfortable and has all his medications, help him contact family and friends, and make sure he's in touch with a lawyer. She would also ask him if he has any religious preferences so she can contact a clergy member of his choice for ongoing support. She does so for several prisoners, some accused (or convicted) of horrific crimes.
posted by sondrialiac at 4:02 PM on July 29, 2008 [1 favorite]


Perhaps we could express our support and condolences or even make a donation to TVUUC instead of arguing over whether or not conservative right-wing media is to blame? I'm sad that this thread has taken this turn.
posted by booksherpa at 4:06 PM on July 29, 2008 [1 favorite]


I think its fucking stupid to make the claim that there is a hard line which makes right-wing propaganda the target of criticism, but not movies, games, fiction or music.

I agree, generally, but aren't you willing to acknowledge a difference in degree, at least, between incitement to kill political opponents and, well, anything found in a video game?
posted by me & my monkey at 4:08 PM on July 29, 2008


.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:58 PM on July 29, 2008


instead of arguing over whether or not conservative right-wing media is to blame

blame? No. No responsibility, either.

As with the fable of the scorpion and the frog, it is the very nature of the crazy right wing to rant, rave, lie, steal, and kill in the pursuit of their agenda.

The John Birch Society used to be the crackpot right. Since the Southern Strategy and the rise of Movement Conservativism, it's the friggin' mainstream of the right, making "mavericks" of such center-right personalities as John McCain; hell, Sarkozy is well the the left of Obama but you wouldn't know that from reading the bleating of our right wing machine, at least until last week.

The issue of why the crackpots hold center stage in our society but few others is an interesting one, and "blaming" the O'Reillys, Limbaughs, and the rest of the "VRWC" for their apparent success over the past 30 years isn't productive.

We've met the enemy and he is us.
posted by yort at 6:10 PM on July 29, 2008


damn dirty ape: I hate people with your attitude. I truly do. I hate the "Hey man, I was kidding, no need to be angry." Its the world's laziest cop-out. The right-wing voices and their billionaire backers are deadly serious. They get results.

Um, exactly who are you arguing with here. Because I never said that, "hey man, I was kidding" is a legitimate cop-out for getting away with hate speech.

And perhaps this is because aside from America's Army and conservatives have been slow to embrace digital media as a vehicle for political messages. My attitude is entirely that of a gamer who loves games, wants to see better games, and wants to engage in a critical discourse about games (the same kinds of conversations that I have about movies, comics, and science fiction.) Anything else is your damage.

me & my monkey: I agree, generally, but aren't you willing to acknowledge a difference in degree, at least, between incitement to kill political opponents and, well, anything found in a video game?

So far. Here is the thing, I think that "escapist media" can carry just about the same kinds of incitement as talk radio rhetoric and non-fiction books. For about a year after Crichton's State of Fear hit the shelves, I recall very few conversations about global climate change in which environmentalists avoided being compared to those in a fiction novel. LaHaye's novels are presented as a cautionary tale about the perils of secularizing society. Lewis's Last Battle is used to get youth groups talking about Conservative Christian eschatology. Apocalypso is a fairly brutal attack on indigenous Native American cultures, and ended with the anachronistic Catholic missionaries coming in to save the day.

So we don't have games that come out and say. "We'd be better off without liberals, feminists, and queers." But I do think there are some very subtle politics going on in games. World of Warcraft has some problematic appropriations of Native American, African, and Mesoamerican cultural symbols with Tauren and Trolls, as well as issues of female armor often being skimpy and non-functional. Beyond Good and Evil has a pretty strong narrative that militarized authority is rarely in the interests of the people, and whistleblowers who report human rights violations are heroes. The Metroid series has an environmentalist subtext.

Just as I reject the "Hey man, I was kidding" defense, I also reject the "its just a game" or "its just a movie" defense. Sure, we've not seen a game in wide publication that is as blatant about wanting to eliminate political dissent as Limbaugh, Savage or Coulter. But in WWII and during the Cold War, there was no lack of that rhetoric embedded in cinema and radio dramas. And 24 has helped to soften public opinion towards acceptance of human rights abuses in the name of fighting terrorism.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 6:18 PM on July 29, 2008


In the last year I've read three independent reports that 24 was used by people who either tortured detainees, or by people who approve of the torture of non-American detainees, including Supreme Court Judge Scalia, in support of their advocacy of torture.

To draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say that "escapist entertainment" doesn't contribute to our current political environment is stupid.

Yes, it matters when right-wing pundits advocate intolerance of liberal and progressive views. But implicit and explicit bias in entertainment and advertising also matters.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:11 PM on July 29, 2008


Man, what the hell is with all those book titles of the form Catchy Title:Blatantly Obvious Sub-Title? Pulp-propaganda.
posted by Jimbob at 8:32 PM on July 29, 2008




Better to wish that he should come to his senses and be forced to live with the guilt of what he has done.

Even better to wish that he should come to his senses and be granted to die with the guilt of what he has done. Its both more humane than locking a person up like a dog for the rest of their life, and its more of a just restitution of the crime. Not to mention it eliminates the possibility that he'll parole in 15 years to be released back onto society.
posted by allkindsoftime at 8:29 AM on July 30, 2008


Humane? Why would that be humane? He gets to die and escape everything. I'd prefer he stay in jail for the rest of his life. It's cheaper too, for those of you who care about that sort of thing. He will not get out of jail - there is not going to be any likelihood of parole with the type of crimes he committed, so don't worry about that.
posted by agregoli at 8:56 AM on July 30, 2008


On eliminationism, Angry White Men, and TVUUC, and a follow up to that post.

The note left in his car makes it clear that, in addition to mass murder, David Adkisson planned to commit either suicide, or "suicide by cop." He walked into that liberal church during a children's-program musical with a 3-shot shotgun and 76 rounds of ammunition, enough to kill every adult in there. And from the history of mass shootings in America, he "knew" not to be worried about the fact that every 3 shots, he was going to have to reload. Adkisson "knew" that once a cold-blooded killer like him starts working a room, people cower under furniture. Some primitive "go to ground" reflex keeps them paralyzed and shivering, hoping that the predator won't notice them, hoping the predator will move on and kill someone else instead. And in the first few seconds of the shooting, many people did just that, so I'm sure he was confident that his plan was working, that he could indeed kill these religious liberals at his leisure, either saving the last bullet for himself or provoking the cops to kill him when the time came. But then he stopped to reload ... and those anti-war liberals did something a right-wing conservative must have found terribly shocking. They turned, and swarmed him. They broke his arm disarming him, and six of them pinned him to the floor. And then, rather than take any kind of revenge on a man who murdered people in front of a group of little children, they peacefully and quietly held him there until the cops came to take him off of their hands. And I can not tell you how proud I am of them as Americans for having done that.
posted by Arturus at 9:07 AM on July 30, 2008 [7 favorites]


Unitarian Forgiveness
posted by homunculus at 9:27 AM on July 30, 2008 [1 favorite]


This event hit close to home since I used to go to TVUUC and have close family members who belong to the church and were there at the time the shooting occurred. Although they were fortunately not harmed, others were not so lucky. I'm re-linking to the Knoxville Relief Fund that booksherpa linked to above.
posted by mahamandarava at 1:48 PM on July 30, 2008


i really appreciate those of you who have been coming back to the thread and adding thoughts (and links -- thanks, as always, homunculus...and mahamandarava, i hadn't seen booksherpa's link, so thanks for adding yours as well.
posted by CitizenD at 9:33 PM on July 30, 2008


« Older Moby Dick? Middlemarch? Jane Eyre?   |   Max & The Marginalized Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments



Post