"They'll have their diamonds, and we'll have our pearls."

August 2, 2008 5:29 PM

1995 versus 2008. Thirteen years later, the media once again devours its own tail reacting to "I Kissed a Girl."

Jill Sobule's hit was banned by Southern radio stations, but greatly endeared her to the gay community. Katy Perry's song and persona are a lot more problematic.

As enlightening as the past couple of decades have been for the public, casual and careless gay stereotyping still commonly surfaces in pop culture. For example, this Snickers commercial in which Mr. T attacks an effeminate speedwalker, calling him "A disgrace to the man race" -- which was banned before it made the leap from British to American television.

posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] (139 comments total)

I remember the original song...and I also remember wondering why I didn't hear a peep about it. I guess living in the Pacific Northwest (or not watching enough to TV to know what I Should Be Outraged About^tm)...?
posted by DU at 5:35 PM on August 2, 2008

Holy crap is that song good. Who produced it?
posted by empath at 5:43 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'm not sure I have a horse in the political implications race for the song, but there is so much vocoding and auto-tuning going onto Katy Perry's voice that the video feels like a bad dub of a Japanese movie. I mean, all music videos are lip-synced, but at least most of them feel like it's plausible that the artist is actually singing.

Other than that, though, it's a rather pleasant video to watch.
posted by Caduceus at 5:44 PM on August 2, 2008

I can't keep track of who is insulted by what and who is ironically in support of what and man can't we just live in a nice, bland world where no one ever says anything that even requires thought as to whether it's nice or not? It'd be so nice, and everyone would just be wonderful.
posted by xmutex at 5:48 PM on August 2, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'm not sure I have a horse in the political implications race for the song, but there is so much vocoding and auto-tuning going onto Katy Perry's voice that the video feels like a bad dub of a Japanese movie.

Yeah, this song is like the Frankenstein of sound manipulation. Listen to it live.
posted by Axle at 5:53 PM on August 2, 2008

God, I wish Frank Zappa was still alive.
posted by jonmc at 5:53 PM on August 2, 2008 [11 favorites has favorites]

I find it interesting how bisexuality tends to really piss off certain gay people.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 5:53 PM on August 2, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'm weirded out by the implications of watching an young girl in her bedroom stroking herself. Otherwise, whateva.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:54 PM on August 2, 2008

I think that the fact that crappy, packaged music is considered the standard by which acceptable behaviour is defined is far more worrying than the content of the song itself.
posted by Brockles at 5:54 PM on August 2, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

Ever since the Katy Perry song came out I've been stuck in an endless conversation where one of my friends says "I hate this song" and I go "The first one was a lot better," and then they stare at me blankly. "The one from the mid-90s...?" I ask. Nope, nothing. And then the process repeats itself a week or so later. I wish the song would go away just for that.
posted by lilac girl at 5:55 PM on August 2, 2008 [4 favorites has favorites]

It's a silly disposable pop song for djs to play at clubs for 19 year old girls to sing along to. Don't take it too seriously, y'all.

That said, in terms of production, it's well done. That 'electro-house' sound has been dominating dance music for about 3 or 4 years now, but it's never really had a cross over pop hit yet the way that Sandstorm was for trance music (Maybe Benni Benassi - Satisfaction? But that was kind of an earlier version of that same sound). That's probably the song that'll do it, though.
posted by empath at 5:57 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

I want a giant insane Camille Paglia robot to come in here and just start kicking the shit out of people. Mr. T can bring his gatling gun loaded with nuts too.
posted by fleetmouse at 5:57 PM on August 2, 2008 [14 favorites has favorites]

I find it interesting how bisexuality tends to really piss off certain gay people.

This is true enough, it's not an easy issue for gay OR straight people, especially along the generational divide. But one aspect of it that almost everyone hates is the preponderance of vapid straight girls begging for attention by making out with each other for the viewing pleasure of vapid straight males. Which this new song pretty much channels the essence of.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 5:58 PM on August 2, 2008 [38 favorites has favorites]

I don't understand why people pick on the manipulated sound, either. The whole point of dance music is to make a shimmering, almost unreal soundscape. You don't want reality, you want escape.
posted by empath at 5:59 PM on August 2, 2008 [7 favorites has favorites]

But one aspect of it that almost everyone hates is the preponderance of vapid straight girls begging for attention by making out with each other for the viewing pleasure of vapid straight males.

Whoa now little fella. Just because no one's offering to pay you any money to make out with anyone doesn't mean you have to go ruining for the rest of us.
posted by xmutex at 6:04 PM on August 2, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

No shit. +1 for bringing Zappa back to life.
posted by jeffamaphone at 6:04 PM on August 2, 2008

I am so deep down bone tired of talentless 100% studio processed dipshits in hooker wear & franken-booties that I don't care what they're singing about, if only they would just stop singing. Honestly, it makes me feel so violent. I'd love to smash Perry and her ilk in the face. After that I'd like to smash the faces of the suits who give out these recording contracts to people that can't actually fucking sing, for fucks sakes arrgghh. I would like to not be lyp synched at. Oh, also, I would like to go to the theatre after having spent $100 on the ticket and hear some actor-singers who don't need to be fucking mic-ed!! There was a time when you got the job because they could hear you in the back fucking row, because you had a voice with power!!! Not because you fit a certain size mini skirt and will agree to sing songs designed to titillate morons!!! Oh my god. Someone hold me. Someone who can hold a tune, hold me.

Jill Sobule's song was pretty charming though.

I need a glass of wine and a nice nap.
posted by zarah at 6:05 PM on August 2, 2008 [30 favorites has favorites]

I think that the fact that crappy, packaged music is considered the standard by which acceptable behaviour is defined is far more worrying than the content of the song itself.

Hear, hear. Oh for the days when a young man would strike out on his own to find a suitable tree, carve its branches, cure its wood and make for himself a lute. String that lute himself and play upon it his heart's most secret song. Alas, it all went to shit at the Newport Folk Festival in 1965.

It's a pop song. A slightly naughty one that is full of catchy hooks. If some get up in arms about it, well, it's a sign they need to relax. Plenty are enjoying it. And, in a clear sign of artistic viability, people are doing fun things with it. (That second remix is killer, btw)
posted by felix betachat at 6:05 PM on August 2, 2008 [9 favorites has favorites]

"This video is not available in your country"

A music video? Are you serious?
posted by saraswati at 6:06 PM on August 2, 2008

Ever since the Katy Perry song came out I've been stuck in an endless conversation where one of my friends says "I hate this song" and I go "The first one was a lot better," and then they stare at me blankly.

By 'the first one' do you mean a 13 year old song that only has a tenuous link to it by sole virtue of sharing the same title? They are completely different. Totally so. It's like saying that this is a version of this.

Which, you know, is heresy and will get you smote by The Hand of Musical Taste*.

(*Who's son, Musical Youth made an appearance briefly on the scene).
posted by Brockles at 6:07 PM on August 2, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

Yeah, seems kind of like criticizing painting because it isn't a photograph.

The song is not exactly a classic that will resound through the ages. But it is catchy and women (or dudes if that's your thing) wearing tight clothes can dance to it. Nothing wrong with that.
posted by Justinian at 6:07 PM on August 2, 2008

Yeah, this song is like the Frankenstein of sound manipulation. Listen to it live .

Huh. As packaged pop artists go, she has a pretty decent voice. A shame they golemed it up for the studio/radio version.
posted by Caduceus at 6:09 PM on August 2, 2008

Yeah, I hate it when vapid straight girls beg for attention by making out with each other for my vapid straight viewing pleasure.

Off to watch porn with my girlfriend.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:10 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

preponderance of vapid straight girls begging for attention by making out with each other for the viewing pleasure of vapid straight males

Actually, though, the song describes her making out with a girl for her own pleasure and makes no reference to straight males viewing. A lot of the arguments against this are basically coming down to "People who are a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale sure do piss me off."
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:11 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

preponderance of vapid straight girls begging for attention by making out with each other for the viewing pleasure of vapid straight males

because what other people do to get hot and bothered needs to be run past us here at MeFi for our approval. At the end of the day, it's really nothing to me.
posted by jonmc at 6:13 PM on August 2, 2008

Good fucking lord, no. Don't bring that shit here. Here is my haven from that.
posted by liquorice at 6:14 PM on August 2, 2008 [8 favorites has favorites]

zarah: Someone who can hold a tune, hold me.

Ah, so you're an American Idol fan?
posted by cillit bang at 6:15 PM on August 2, 2008

Is this something I would need a minor in Queer Theory to understand?
posted by Banky_Edwards at 6:15 PM on August 2, 2008

Thinks for that link felix -- good remixes, and i just added the blog to my feed :) I love that there is already a bmore club remix.
posted by empath at 6:16 PM on August 2, 2008

Why haven't we brought up Joss Stone's retarded cover of "I Kissed A Girl," de-queered as "I Kissed A Boy?" Because I find that way more offensive, if I am to find anything offensive, than a former Christian rocker's annoyingly catchy ode to the male gaze and hawt babes smooching. Because, c'mon, Joss Stone, it's not like there was a shortage of songs about girls kissing boys, so why did you have to go and straightify a perfectly good one that was never about that. I mean, really. I am sending you so many angry letters in a hostile font.

Also, the original features Fabio in the video. Fabio is awesome.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:19 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

the song describes her making out with a girl for her own pleasure

That's not really true. Though she says "I kissed a girl just to try it/
I hope my boyfriend don't mind it..." she all but winks at the camera to signify that she knows he won't mind at all. And the rest indicates a conflict as well:

"No, I don't even know your name
It doesn't matter
You're my experimental game
Just human nature
It's not what good girls do
Not how they should behave
My head gets so confused
Hard to obey..."

Yeah, it's just a pop song blah blah, but when something is heard, watched, and sung by millions of people, it contributes to the common perception of gay status and issues. So a former gospel singer flooding the chars with "Ur So Gay" and "I Kissed a Girl" people are bound to get a little cranky.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 6:19 PM on August 2, 2008 [9 favorites has favorites]

I'd rather listen to Peaches (or Zappa).
posted by stifford at 6:19 PM on August 2, 2008

This chiptune version of it is glorious. (warning embedded quicktime)
posted by empath at 6:21 PM on August 2, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

Holy crap is that song good. Who produced it?

Dr Luke, who also did Since U Been Gone and Girlfriend. So obviously it's good.
posted by cillit bang at 6:21 PM on August 2, 2008

"This video is not available in your country"

I took it as a badge of honor, actually. Yeah you best not be trying that over-processed pap over here motherfucker. That's right, take it the fuck back home. That's what I thought.
posted by Naberius at 6:22 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

she all but winks at the camera to signify that she knows he won't mind at all. And the rest indicates a conflict as well

HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I DON'T LIKE THE WAY THOSE BEANS ARE TOUCHING EACH OTHER.
posted by felix betachat at 6:23 PM on August 2, 2008 [25 favorites has favorites]

Yeah, it's just a pop song blah blah, but when something is heard, watched, and sung by millions of people, it contributes to the common perception of gay status and issues.

You're getting cranky because you're reading too much into it. Relax. Unclench.
posted by xmutex at 6:31 PM on August 2, 2008

It's not what good girls do
Not how they should behave
My head gets so confused
Hard to obey...

There are tons of songs describing straight love, romance, and sex as being bad or naughty, or even just celebrating being "bad" (rebellious) in general. Especially with the use of the word "obey" I read this as subversive against being a "good (demure, non-same-sex-hooking up, chaste) girl".

And the thing about the boyfriend is exactly what I was saying: It's bad because she's mostly straight and only a little gay; she has to be all straight or all gay.

The "Ur So Gay" one I expected to be worse from the title, but it seems to me to be about how the "limp-wristed faggot" stereotype is silly - the guy is described like "you act stereotypically gay in this way and that way, but you don't like the cock." Why? Because stereotypically limp-wristed behavior isn't the same as homosexuality.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:36 PM on August 2, 2008

P.S.: Yes, I'll admit you can read a bit of a "the boyfriend finds it hot" reference into that boyfriend line, but the bulk of the song is about how she finds it hot.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:38 PM on August 2, 2008

You're getting cranky because you're reading too much into it. Relax. Unclench.

Oh, I see. You guys think I'm angry about it. I'm not actually! I think it's interesting, and that there are a lot of angles from which to approach the matter, not the least of which being simple musical style preference. I posted this out of interest in how the songs compare, considering that the Sobule song has been invoked by many reviewers and commentors, so I'm not here to pass out torches or anything.

In the broader sense, I'm interested in the ways in which the media chooses to condemn, tolerate, or perpetuate homophobia, whether real or perceived. I'm actually more irritated by the Snickers ad than I am by Perry's song, because it's thoroughly more senseless and makes light of judgmental violence to sell candy bars.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 6:42 PM on August 2, 2008

Um... Stitcherbeast, I believe you're actually referring to Joss Ston'es fully unnecessary cover of "Fell in Love with a Girl," which is gender reversed to be "Fell in Love with a Boy," because it was originally sung by a man (Jack White). Still a bad, bad cover though.

As for Katy Perry, well, the song is vapid , well produced, and I hate it, but I imagine it'll do more good than harm for the gay community by making asme-sex experimentation rebellious and cool. It's still a bad, bad song though.

And Jill Sobule is just awesome, and I've been having the same conversation over and over again with people who'd never heard her hit single (which certainly wasn't being banned in Houston, at least.) A very good, good song.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:49 PM on August 2, 2008

On further reflection, I think "I Kissed a Girl" would be better if it were sung by GLaDOS.
posted by Caduceus at 6:50 PM on August 2, 2008 [6 favorites has favorites]

My daughter works at Wet Seal (teenybopper girlie clothes) and they play a CD of repeating songs. She came home complaining about how that song annoyed her, but since it was repeated all day it stuck in her head. I told her I thought it was a remake of a song from years ago, or at least was the same title. I got distracted and never followed up in trying to find the old version. I should have know MeFi would come through.

I find them both annoying, and I wonder if a guy version would get any airplay?
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 6:56 PM on August 2, 2008

Straight chick drinks a little, gets curious, approaches another girl, has good time. Thank god for tipsy curious straight chicks. They made my teens a joy.

Also, it's cool that the controversy isn't about her boyfriend being black. I hope being gay or experimenting or whatever becomes that kind of non-issue one day.
posted by hojoki at 6:58 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

In the broader sense, I'm interested in the ways in which the media chooses to condemn, tolerate, or perpetuate homophobia, whether real or perceived.

Thanks for the links, [N H-IST]. That Snickers ad is terrible, but thankfully that ad has been pulled and/or hasn't spread around the globe (except in discussions like this) like the terrible Katy Perry song has.

I think it's very interesting that two songs with the same title are so diametrically opposed in their views - where Sobule's song was joyous, Perry's is more selfish and predatory. And it surprises me, as it does you, that 13 years later (has it been that long?) we now get a song that perpetuates an old stereotype.

And it's not about bisexuality or being 1 or 2 on the Kinsey Scale - it's about vapid lyrics like "I got so brave, drink in hand" (Yes, Katy, SO BRAVE!) and "You're my experimental game" (mmm, yes, game playing - always fun for the other party!) and "It's not what, good girls do
Not how they should behave" (oh, yes, you're such a BAD GIRL, Katy - what a TERRIBLE thing you've done).

Hey, I'm all for experimenting but don't pretend it's being brave, don't be proud that you're using someone for your own amusement, don't tell everyone you kissed a girl and you liked it - as if this could possibly be news to anyone!
posted by crossoverman at 7:04 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

X would be better if it were sung by GLaDOS.

For what values of X would the above be false?
posted by b1tr0t at 7:06 PM on August 2, 2008 [7 favorites has favorites]

2nd link not available in my country, apparently.
posted by verisimilitude at 7:06 PM on August 2, 2008

I really, really, really miss the old "best of the web" metafilter. I would happily give back my account to get it back.
posted by oddman at 7:08 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

TheOnlyCoolTim: Actually, though, the song describes her making out with a girl for her own pleasure and makes no reference to straight males viewing. A lot of the arguments against this are basically coming down to "People who are a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale sure do piss me off."

Well, it's not that. Its that there are an awful lot of straight folks who are willing to "experiment" just far enough to get a reputation as open-minded and sexually liberated, who then turn right around and pull an "eww gross" when dealing with actual same-sex attraction. Perhaps its a bit silly, but some people tend to resent being used to get a reputation and then treated like dirt.

Some of us find the song annoying, because we've really had to fight to convince family and friends that our same-sex relationships were not just a shallow experiment in hedonism. And the half-dozen qualifiers in the song treating it as just a drunken fling comes very much comes across as trivializing same-sex affection.

The Jill Soluble song, in contrast, is not well served by the video which keeps the two women with male partners. Within the framework of the song, heterosexuality is presented as somewhat dissatisfying, and it concludes with the implication that the two women were going to have a full-on love affair.

(And I don't mean annoyance in that the song makes me livid and angry, I mean annoyed in that I roll my eyes and flip the channel.)
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:10 PM on August 2, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

X would be better if it were sung by GLaDOS.

For what values of X would the above be false?

You have a point, sir.
posted by Caduceus at 7:24 PM on August 2, 2008

I caught one of my young nieces singing the Katy Perry song a week or so ago. I immediately pulled up Jill Sobule on YouTube to teach her what a girl-kissing song should sound like.
posted by Knappster at 7:26 PM on August 2, 2008 [4 favorites has favorites]

These beans are cold. Do not want.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 7:33 PM on August 2, 2008

careless gay stereotyping still commonly surfaces in pop culture. For example, this Snickers commercial in which Mr. T attacks an effeminate speedwalker

I simply can't see that as a gay-bashing commercial. I don't see how the speedwalker can be perceived as gay. Freaky, yes; gay, no. All speedwalkers look a little freaky when they're booting it along. Little wonder Mr. T short his nuts at him.

Actually, when I phrase it like that, I gotta wonder if maybe the idea was to portray Mr. T as a little gay...
posted by five fresh fish at 7:36 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

But one aspect of it that almost everyone hates is the preponderance of vapid straight girls begging for attention by making out with each other for the viewing pleasure of vapid straight males.

At least in my neck of the woods, this is happening with straight-but-femmy guys as well. It's cool to act/dress/talk/etc what most people consider "gay," but not to actually be gay -- such that acting gay but not being gay is WAY cooler than acting-and-being either straight or gay. And these guys pepper their conversations with numerous references to their girlfriends or wives -- just so you don't get the "wrong" idea.

I'm all for breaking down gender stereotypes, but I feel like there's an implicit homophobia enabling that this particular "deconstruction."
posted by treepour at 7:37 PM on August 2, 2008

Hmm, the song reminds of Ani DiFranco's "Light of Some Kind" (ignore the images, they were hacked together by someone).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:40 PM on August 2, 2008

Its that there are an awful lot of straight folks who are willing to "experiment" just far enough to get a reputation as open-minded and sexually liberated, who then turn right around and pull an "eww gross" when dealing with actual same-sex attraction.

This, I have not encountered or heard of, seriously. The people I know who've "experimented" have never expressed homophobia towards full-on level 6 homosexuality.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 7:50 PM on August 2, 2008

Hmm. When I heard Katy Perry's "I Kissed A Girl" my first thought was that it was great that we were at a point where shifting and fluid sexual orientation was fun and sexy and safe enough for Top 40 radio -- in sharp contrast to the more earnest, banished-to-college-radio Jill Sobule version.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:55 PM on August 2, 2008

Tim, I think he's talking about the case where the object of experimentation actually is gay and takes it the wrong way. That can lead to hurt feelings all around, and I'd be most gay people have been on the receiving end of that more than once.
posted by empath at 7:57 PM on August 2, 2008

I want a giant insane Camille Paglia robot to come in here and just start kicking the shit out of people.

Camille Paglia? Isn't she on some 1990s revival tour with the surviving members of Blind Melon, or something?
posted by jonp72 at 8:02 PM on August 2, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

Jill Sobule's hit was banned by Southern radio stations, but greatly endeared her to the gay community.

I assume you got this "fact" from the Julie Sobule Wikipedia entry:

Jill Sobule's hit was banned by Southern radio stations, but greatly endeared her to the gay community.

Trying to research this further, I can find no mention that her song was banned by Southern radio stations, only an article that originally said her song was "banned from many radio stations".

Anyone know where this Wikipedia "fact" originated from?
posted by jca at 8:08 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

By 'the first one' do you mean a 13 year old song that only has a tenuous link to it by sole virtue of sharing the same title? They are completely different. Totally so. [...]

Oh, and don't even get me started about this. Those names are goddamned sacrosanct, do you hear me you philistines? I will come down there to Hollywood and kick you square in the f@cking nuts.
posted by tkolar at 8:08 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Trying to research this further, I can find no mention that her song was banned by Southern radio stations, only an article that originally said her song was "banned from many radio stations".

A similar vague reference was made in Rolling Stone back in 1998.
posted by Knappster at 8:25 PM on August 2, 2008

From a 2001 review:

Known to many as the "Kissed a Girl" chick, Sobule takes pride in writing the first song with lesbian content to make it to the top-20 chart.

"It was banned on several southern stations," writes Sobule in the liner notes to "I Never Learned to Swim." "I thought that was swell."

posted by Knappster at 8:28 PM on August 2, 2008

Hmm. When I heard Katy Perry's "I Kissed A Girl" my first thought was that it was great that we were at a point where shifting and fluid sexual orientation was fun and sexy and safe enough for Top 40 radio -- in sharp contrast to the more earnest, banished-to-college-radio Jill Sobule version.

*cough*
posted by bunnytricks at 8:34 PM on August 2, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

I don't watch much TV, so the only place I see Mr T is on Metafilter. Thanks again.
I gotta get me a gatling gun that shoots Snickers bars.
I really don't see how anyone could be offended by that commercial.
(unless you don't like stupid)
posted by MtDewd at 8:40 PM on August 2, 2008

I am sending you so many angry letters in a hostile font.

Metafilter: angry letters in a hostile font.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:55 PM on August 2, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

Um... Stitcherbeast, I believe you're actually referring to Joss Ston'es fully unnecessary cover of "Fell in Love with a Girl," which is gender reversed to be "Fell in Love with a Boy," because it was originally sung by a man (Jack White). Still a bad, bad cover though.

You are correct! I am wrong. I misremembered what had transpired. Either way, I do not like Joss Stone, but that is entirely irrelevant to what's going on here.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:56 PM on August 2, 2008

I'll wait for Laibach to cover the song.
posted by boo_radley at 9:00 PM on August 2, 2008 [4 favorites has favorites]

As a card-carrying bisexual, I think it's pretty great to see bisexuality portrayed as just one of those things. Like "Huh, I like kissing girls AND boys. Neat."

Oh, I'm sorry? Am I not reading enough into this? Are the Queer Police going to come into my house and force me to listen to The Indigo Girls greatest hits and write a sonnet to the sacred lesbian bond between two wymyn? Damn.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:31 PM on August 2, 2008 [5 favorites has favorites]

These beans are cold.

Uh ... you want me to heat those up for you or anything?

No need. Fine like this.
posted by homunculus at 9:37 PM on August 2, 2008

empath, that remix is amazing. Thank you!
posted by shoepal at 9:38 PM on August 2, 2008

Mr T. is correct - speed walking is fucking stupid looking.

Thanks for getting the ad pulled, humourless yanks.
posted by Artw at 9:46 PM on August 2, 2008

Alternate Mr T. Snickers ad
posted by Artw at 9:48 PM on August 2, 2008

I dunno. I say this all as someone who identifies as a big ol' dyke, but this is complicated.

On one hand, the song (and its video, which is even worse) drives me absolutely frigging nuts. Most gay people tend to view their sexuality as part of their identity, and while some can be hostile towards bi people (as said above), I'm not one of them. Then strolls along a bunch of people--almost always female--who make out with other girls in clubs for the express benefit of guys, which blurs lesbianism as an identity versus lesbianism as the voyeur's wet dream. While it's understandable that guys like lesbians, it's very weird and disconcerting to see it used as a means to an end (record sales, getting the attention of the boy, as a Madonna/Britney Spears publicity stunt) than as a legitimate attempt to figure one's sexuality out. Sure, girls, make out drunk in clubs; just don't do it for that boy.

On the other hand, kissing girls is becoming OK in mainstream media. Yay! That's actually a legitimately good thing, and a thing I wish would even begin to trickle down to gay guys (who still get the short end of the stick on this, every damn time). But being a stereotypical lesbian--birkenstocks etc.--still isn't. It's promoting one idea of lesbianism, and a shallow one at that; an idea of lesbianism based on their being a viewer for which it is performed.

It's a very strange square dance... One step forward, one step back, one step to the left.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 9:49 PM on August 2, 2008 [13 favorites has favorites]

I'd like to see a video remix of Katy Perry's song with butches in place of femmes.

But then, we wouldn't be talking about it here, now, if that happened, would we?
posted by vitia at 10:02 PM on August 2, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

Flibbertigibbet beat me to it.
posted by vitia at 10:03 PM on August 2, 2008

Oh, and don't even get me started about this. Those names are goddamned sacrosanct, do you hear me you philistines? I will come down there to Hollywood and kick you square in the f@cking nuts.

I'm going to say this as eloquently as I know how: Wha?

(In other words, what makes those names sacrosanct, why are you so upset, and what's that have to do with this conversation in general? And why did you feel the need to replaced the 'u' in "fucking" with an @ symbol?)
posted by Caduceus at 10:05 PM on August 2, 2008

to the left.

We're so strong, we're so pure, we know who we are, we know who we are
posted by homunculus at 10:12 PM on August 2, 2008

Oh, I'm sorry? Am I not reading enough into this? Are the Queer Police going to come into my house and force me to listen to The Indigo Girls greatest hits and write a sonnet to the sacred lesbian bond between two wymyn? Damn.

Well, you know, some people like it, some people don't like it. It's all cool until someone gets their boxers/thong/tight-whites/banana-hammock in a twist because someone else has a different opinion about a song. Then, it's a metafilter music discussion.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:16 PM on August 2, 2008

Mr. T, I'd let you shoot me with your chocolately, nutty bar, filled with nougat. *sigh*
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:29 PM on August 2, 2008

flibbertigibbet, it sucks, but all that's happening is that the media are coming to the point where they have to acknowledge gay and lesbian culture, but they can't seem to see the question of how to do so in any other way that "how do we sell it?" And that itself, due to numbers, is only about how to sell it to (mostly) straight people. So aside from the more daring (more truthful?) and artier shows and movies, most depictions of lesbians, for instance, will be of "lesbians" that the straight men in the audience would find attractive, and carry just enough ambiguity that those same men could carry the fantasy that they'd maybe have a shot with them. When art is commodified, sex sells better than anything, which makes it tough to sell "dykes" to straight men. There's essentially zero mutual attraction. I have hope, though...

Gay men, at least the youngish ones, have it both easier and harder from what I've seen. Where "lesbian culture" is classically not a part of the pop-culture and fashion world, "gay culture" has been enveloped by it, creating a whole host of stereotypes and mannerisms and sub-classes and other molds which young gay men, just coming out, must either now fit into or else struggle to avoid, along with all of the other hate and rhetoric. I admit I'm on the outside looking in on all of this, but having been with a number of friends as they came out, It has seemed to me like my lesbian friends were a lot freer to remain fully themselves while outwardly incorporating their sexuality into their identity than my gay friends were, adopting flamboyantly "gay" voices and walks and speech mannerisms. For all I know, these mannerisms were always there, and my friends just torturously hid them until they were ready to come out, but it seemed much more to me like it was just a part of entering the "gay culture," which the media had pigeonholed them into.

Again, I don't know. I've read "Go Carolina," by Dave Sedaris, where he talks about going into speech therapy for his lisp as a child with all of the other lispers who would later come out, so maybe there is something genetic in the "gay voice" (I have no doubt that actual homosexuality is genetic, of course, but just don't know why it would affect one's linguistics.)

But as for this song, while I hate it, I just can't see the real harm in it, aside for how stupid it is. The "I hope my boyfriend don't mind it" line has been accurately understood as a wink and a nod to the fact that her boyfriend, of course, won't mind at all.* I also see the bit about "this is not how good girls behave" to be a wink and a nod to the fact that those notions are old-fashioned.

Anyway, I hope that I haven't offended anyone here. I admit that I'm nowhere close to being an authority on gays and lesbians, except that I really, really hope to see the day when a child's sexual preference makes no more difference in anyone's opinion than, say, their hair or eye color.

*I know that I personally don't mind at all if a girlfriend goes off to mess around with another woman, even if it becomes something long-term. This is not because of the visual image of two women together, which unfortunately does nothing for me, but rather because I just assume that her being with another woman satisfies at least some desire that being with me (a man) does not, and so why would I possibly be jealous about something like that?
posted by Navelgazer at 10:35 PM on August 2, 2008

It's hard to keep up with what the media tells us is okay and not okay. Adam Joseph, whose song "Faggoty Attention" has been all over Logo for a while now, is a good example. As a queer person, I'm literally at a loss to articulate my honest reaction to his music and manifesto, but it doesn't make me want to dance -- it makes me want to run for the hills.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 10:53 PM on August 2, 2008

How do we feel about the old Mr. T skit Eddy Murphy used to do?
posted by Artw at 10:57 PM on August 2, 2008

It's hard to keep up with what the media tells us is okay and not okay.

Another option is to turn off the TV and Internets. Just because some greedy hipster assholes in a corporation say that it's now okay to bash gay people, doesn't mean we have to consume their garbage. Especially the shit that Logo puts out. /makes sign of the cross
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:58 PM on August 2, 2008

Thanks for getting the ad pulled, humourless yanks.

Really? You don't think it was an iffy ad? Not one bit, huh.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:00 PM on August 2, 2008

Absoluytely in no way worthy of the freakout it produced, that is correct.
posted by Artw at 11:05 PM on August 2, 2008

Brandon Blatcher: "I'm weirded out by the implications of watching an young girl in her bedroom stroking herself. Otherwise, whateva."

Oh don't be so creeped out. All the cool kids were doing it.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 11:08 PM on August 2, 2008

One step forward, one step back, one step to the left.

But always twirling towards victory.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:17 PM on August 2, 2008

Also, I though the Faggoty Attention song was great.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:18 PM on August 2, 2008

You know, there is this really disturbing, ugly, and in my opinion, fundamentally very stupid response that I see continually popping up in discussion of pop culture, that starts along the line of "it's just a song/advertisement/game/movie, lighten up." I can't tell if the people who pull this argument exist on some enlightened plane in which only Wagner, chess and Svankmajer are worthy topics of conversation, or know-nothing yahoos who are incapable of having a conversation about even ephemera.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:22 PM on August 2, 2008 [4 favorites has favorites]

Absoluytely in no way worthy of the freakout it produced, that is correct.

Maybe. But I have to admit that a part of me feels a bit betrayed of my childhood memories of Mr. T, someone I remembered as a tough but gentle giant who fought the bad guys, for playing a shitty role in what is a pretty shitty commercial. I'm not so sad to see it gone as I am saddened to know that he was a part of it, honestly.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:31 PM on August 2, 2008

Dude's also in a World of Warcraft advertisement. Complete sellout.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:32 PM on August 2, 2008

Kirk, that's a lot of ad hominem there. Maybe you should step away from the keyboard.
posted by empath at 11:34 PM on August 2, 2008

You know, there is this really disturbing, ugly, and in my opinion, fundamentally very stupid response that I see continually popping up in discussion of pop culture, that starts along the line of "it's just a song/advertisement/game/movie, lighten up."

I think this is less an attitude of "this topic isn't worthy of discussion" and more one of "you are getting way too out of shape about this particularly thing, and should really get some perspective."

I'm not claiming that is always the right response to someone getting bent out of shape over a facet of pop culture, this one or any other, but I can certainly see where they're coming from.
posted by Caduceus at 11:40 PM on August 2, 2008

Oh don't be so creeped out. All the cool kids were doing it.

DiVinyls?

Lauper was there first. (In a video that combines low production values with WTF weird shit.)
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:40 PM on August 2, 2008

KirkJobSluder: The Jill Soluble song

Sobule. As far as we know, she won't actually disolve in water (at least, not right away...).
posted by hincandenza at 11:53 PM on August 2, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

I find it interesting how bisexuality co-opting non-mainstream sexuality in order to sell more records tends to really piss off certain gay people.

Fixed that for you, all shiny and new.

Actually, though, the song describes her making out with a girl for her own pleasure and makes no reference to straight males viewing.

Describes, yes. How about we take a look at who's singing it? That's the point we're making.

(And yes, don't get me wrong, I love this song to bits. It is genius pop.)

she all but winks at the camera to signify that she knows he won't mind at all. And the rest indicates a conflict as well

HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I DON'T LIKE THE WAY THOSE BEANS ARE TOUCHING EACH OTHER.

Wow. Way to completely miss the point.

You're getting cranky because you're reading too much into it. Relax. Unclench.

Which is always what whitestraight folks say to make sure us uppity niggersqueers know our place.

And these guys pepper their conversations with numerous references to their girlfriends or wives -- just so you don't get the "wrong" idea.

Even amongst those types of straight boys, that tends to be a really goddamn clear "O HAI I LUVS TEH COX" signal. Protesting too much, etc.

Its that there are an awful lot of straight folks who are willing to "experiment" just far enough to get a reputation as open-minded and sexually liberated, who then turn right around and pull an "eww gross" when dealing with actual same-sex attraction.

This, I have not encountered or heard of, seriously.

I have, it happens. I'm talking about guys I know for a fact have sucked some dick. 'Experimentally'. There's an important distinction between "Yeah, not my thing" and "Ew, not my thing"--and many, many of them choose the latter. Interesting to examine why.

Anyone know where this Wikipedia "fact" originated from?

Check the citation. If there isn't one, delete it or add a {{cn}} tag.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:01 AM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

so maybe there is something genetic in the "gay voice" (I have no doubt that actual homosexuality is genetic, of course, but just don't know why it would affect one's linguistics.)

I remember reading something a few years ago that studied this (in a scientific way, not in a magazine story way) and said that the 'gay voice' was very weirdly consistent across western societal groupings, including people without much or any access to mainstream media. I wish I could dig up a cite.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:08 AM on August 3, 2008

Caduceus: I think this is less an attitude of "this topic isn't worthy of discussion" and more one of "you are getting way too out of shape about this particularly thing, and should really get some perspective."

It the criteria for identifying "getting bent out of shape" seems to be set at a ridiculously trivial threshold: daring to voice any criticism at all. But I've seen a few too many conversations in the last month in which "I personally think this sucks" was treated as if the writer said that something was the greatest evil in a generation.

hincandenza: Hah! I looked up at least two different spellings, and still got it wrong.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:08 AM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Pretty good piece about this song and Perry at Something Awful.
posted by Snyder at 12:47 AM on August 3, 2008

The "cherry chapstick" line is also stolen, this time from the Aquabats song "Lovers of Loving Love". I don't think there is one original line in that Katy Perry song. People who think it's homophobic are barking up the wrong tree though. If the line was "I ate a steak and I liked it" would they say it was pro-vegetarian?
posted by w0mbat at 1:00 AM on August 3, 2008

I don't think any of the homogays in this thread said it was homophobic. Speaking only for myself, I think (despite the fact that it is one catchy fucking song) that it's more about co-opting minority sexuality to sell records.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:08 AM on August 3, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

I find it interesting how bisexuality co-opting non-mainstream sexuality in order to sell more records tends to really piss off certain gay people.

Fixed that for you, all shiny and new.

Um, no. Retarded internet meme is so retarded.

Or are you going to pretend that there are no gay bigots who hate bisexual people?
posted by rodgerd at 1:24 AM on August 3, 2008

No, I'm not going to pretend that. But I'd prefer that we not all get tarred with the same brush. We've had about enough of that, really.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:41 AM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Meh. It's no Anal Cunt - The Word Homophobic is Gay.

The youtube comments are worth reading too if you want to feel like humanity is not worth saving.
posted by slimepuppy at 2:23 AM on August 3, 2008

Personally, I enjoy this song. It's got a catchy tune and you can dance to it. Although I would have to agree with the sentiment that this is less about experimenting with sexuality, and more about being an attention whore. Which is probably something that shouldn't be fed with...attention.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:02 AM on August 3, 2008

The new song is dying to be mashed up with Tainted Love.
posted by phrontist at 3:46 AM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

It's a good song when it comes to ephemeral danceable pop songs (which is not damning with faint praise). I do think it caters a bit too much to female same-sex physical intimacy as a viewed act for male eyes, as mentioned by others in the thread.

However, what really pisses me off is the video. What a load of shit. This is the sort of song that could have had a kickass funny video (albeit probably offensive to some). Instead they went for a sub-Victoria's Secret lingerie sleepover in the harem horseshit.
posted by Gnatcho at 3:54 AM on August 3, 2008

I Kissed a Squirrel

I hope my hamster don't mind it....
posted by lukemeister at 4:06 AM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

> So a former gospel singer flooding the chars with "Ur So Gay" and "I Kissed a Girl" people are bound to get a little cranky.

OTOH the characteristics of "I Kissed a Girl," lyrics and music alike, are exactly right to make it a drag queen performance standard for years to come. Folks enjoying their morning outragefilter over this flaplet may find that confusing. Don't mention that, though, because the younger people of the day will just take it as proof that you're getting old and out of it.
posted by jfuller at 5:42 AM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

a sub-Victoria's Secret lingerie sleepover in the harem horseshit

Otherwise known as "the Internet".
posted by lukemeister at 5:46 AM on August 3, 2008

Is Jesus Katy Perry's girlfriend?
posted by EarBucket at 5:53 AM on August 3, 2008

ps - welcome to Diablo Cody's America.
posted by blasdelf at 6:44 AM on August 3, 2008

X would be better if it were sung by GLaDOS.


you hate my older sister and burglarize her home
your dirty invitation waits run over on my street
i don't care who you don't like

you don't have to answer me
you don't have to answer me

you don't have to call me back
your phones off the hook,
but you're not
posted by Smart Dalek at 7:06 AM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Today I learned that they are still making vapid music I'll enjoy. Thanks for the links.

This is certainly no Jill Sobule (nor her incredibly artistic and meaningful song).

On the other hand it is one of the more enjoyable pieces of pop fluff I've heard recently. Besides that, I just don't get how people can get that upset about it. Even the 'It's not what good girls do' line is part of the verse 'No I don't even know your name. It doesn't matter. Your my experimental game'.

I understand the frustration within bi/gay/lesbian organizations of young women making out just for the benefit of male viewers, but frankly the notion that any folks won't engage in a behavior purely for the benefit of generating interest from whatever demographic it is they want attention from. Well, it strikes me as blue sky thinking.
posted by meinvt at 7:12 AM on August 3, 2008

Is Jesus Katy Perry's girlfriend?

Well he was, but then she grew up.
posted by smackfu at 7:31 AM on August 3, 2008

Also, I think in this discussion everyone should at least be aware of the gender-swapped situation: straight women turned on by male homosexuality getting their boyfriends to make out with guys (seen this, or the desire for it, often enough), Yaoi (male-homosexual anime pornos somewhat aimed at a female audience), and gay slash fanfiction which tends to be authored by women.

These don't cause me to have anything to say, just putting it out there.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:06 AM on August 3, 2008

That Jill Sobule song is great, thanks!

Yet another reminder of how uncool I am, when I find out about neat stuff like this 13 years later.
posted by graventy at 8:21 AM on August 3, 2008

I'm going to say this as eloquently as I know how: Wha?

(In other words,
what makes those names sacrosanct,

Nick and Nora Charles (William Powell and Myrna Loy), of the Thin Man movies. The fact that you did not know this reveals a horrible deprivation in your life, but there is still time to remedy it.

why are you so upset, and what's that have to do with this conversation in general?

The comment I was responding to mentioned the sheer travesty of people referring to a semi-literate pop culture sound bite as a sequel or a remake when in fact all it shares is a few words in common with a venerated classic.

And why did you feel the need to replaced the 'u' in "fucking" with an @ symbol?)

Even the roughest character cleans up his language in the presence of Nora Charles.
posted by tkolar at 8:37 AM on August 3, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

Hmm. When I heard Katy Perry's "I Kissed A Girl" my first thought was that it was great that we were at a point where shifting and fluid sexual orientation was fun and sexy and safe enough for Top 40 radio -- in sharp contrast to the more earnest, banished-to-college-radio Jill Sobule version.

*cough*

***cough***
posted by Bizurke at 8:59 AM on August 3, 2008

I didn't realize Lola was about a tranny until I was like 30. I must have heard the song thousands of times before that and never listened to the lyrics.
posted by empath at 9:55 AM on August 3, 2008

PC folks would rather she say, "You so resemble the outmoded stereotype of a gay male, and you don't even like boys." Well it does have a ring to it.
posted by gorgor_balabala at 10:31 AM on August 3, 2008

TheOnlyCoolTim: Also, I think in this discussion everyone should at least be aware of the gender-swapped situation: straight women turned on by male homosexuality getting their boyfriends to make out with guys (seen this, or the desire for it, often enough), Yaoi (male-homosexual anime pornos somewhat aimed at a female audience), and gay slash fanfiction which tends to be authored by women.

In my experience, the slashers, yaoi fangirls, fag hags, and heterosexual female fans of gay porn sometimes have their own prejudices about homosexuality. It's often the swinger mentality in which everything is just wonderful and fine as long as it is just "casual" sex, but when a same-sex relationship crosses certain intangible emotional lines, all of the nastiness comes to the surface.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:14 AM on August 3, 2008

I think in this discussion everyone should at least be aware of the gender-swapped situation

Two guys for every girl
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:19 AM on August 3, 2008

You know, I really don't mind this song at all, probably just because all the straight chicks want to make out with me, one of the only queer girls they know.

Female bisexuality/lesbianism is becoming... well almost a fad. MTV did "A Shot at Love I & II with Tila Tiquila," "Next" has a gay version, etc. And while Tila Tequila is getting rid of the stereotype of the butch, I agree with earlier posters who mentioned gay boys are getting none of the help. If your a gay boy in popular media, you're effeminate, and that needs to change
posted by Suparnova at 12:26 PM on August 3, 2008

X would be better if it were sung by GLaDOS.

For what values of X would the above be false?

Freebird.

The SA article was cute:

Two hit singles into her career, Perry has established 1) She dates people who are gay, though they don't even like other men. 2) She herself is not gay, though she might theoretically kiss another woman, should a comprehensive list of circumstances unfold. Despite having seemingly exhausted the unorthodox sexual permutations that serve as her primary muse, Perry declined to retire, instead joining the Warped Tour.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:25 PM on August 3, 2008

I really don't understand why the Mr. T Snickers commercials got dragged in to this discussion. I didn't see any overtly homosexual behaviors in any of the commercials. I saw the speedwalker/soccer player characters not as representations of gays, but as examples of distinctly un-manly behavior. In that light, I found the commercials to be extremely funny and non-offensive.
posted by oozy rat in a sanitary zoo at 1:54 PM on August 3, 2008

Of course Mr T. himself is utterly wussy when it comes to taking airplane flights.
posted by Artw at 2:17 PM on August 3, 2008

Female bisexuality/lesbianism is becoming... well almost a fad.

Becoming? Almost? It's been around for a while.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:22 PM on August 3, 2008

You know who used to be good? Pearl Jam. What the fuck happened there?
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:34 PM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

(hi metafilter! wow, it's been a long time. thanks for the traffic!)
posted by maura at 3:38 PM on August 3, 2008

I resent that this terrible song is a big hit but Tom Waits didn't even didn't even return the SASE* I sent him about my song "I Frenched A Dude"

* (self addressed stamped envelope)
posted by I Foody at 3:53 PM on August 3, 2008

Didn't Bowie already do that one?
posted by Artw at 4:37 PM on August 3, 2008

Eh I can at least try to ignore the vapid "Kissed a Girl" song. But "UR So Gay," wow. I mean, the opening lines are, "I hope you hang yourself with your H&M scarf / While jacking off listening to Mozart."
DIE MAINSTREAM MUSIC IN 2008, DIE
posted by naju at 5:13 PM on August 3, 2008

DIE MAINSTREAM MUSIC IN 2008, DIE

There are scads of alternatives out there. Most can be evaluated for free via The Internet. ;)
posted by mrgrimm at 7:40 PM on August 3, 2008

  Female bisexuality/lesbianism is becoming... well almost a fad.

Becoming? Almost? It's been around for a while.

...all those episodes of Friends where Joey almost creamed himself thinking about Rachel and/or Monica and/or Phoebe together. It was a funny caricature, but the Perry song to me just seems exploitative. Thankfully, I have not heard "UR So Gay."

UR: Wasn't that in ancient Mesopotamia?
posted by Robert Angelo at 7:43 PM on August 3, 2008

UR so vain,
You probably think this cuneiform is about you.
posted by lukemeister at 7:25 PM on August 4, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

This reminds me of an odd form of stereotyping that I saw last night. I was at Momma Mia (the movie... don't ask) with a friend. At the end of the film (big spoiler here, whoop and a dee and a doo) one of the main male characters conveniently attaches himself to another guy in the film and all of the paired-off people go into a (painful) singing montage. We then see this guy shirtless and dancing in (what I perceived to be) an overly exaggerated, blatantly cliché manner–here the only gay person of the film*, outed as such only at the very end, and then portrayed like a flaming freakshow. I just didn't get it. Anybody else have some enlightening perspective about what the hell that was all about? It seemed completely tone-deaf, just all wrong.

*well, not counting his boyfriend of 5 minutes.
posted by iamkimiam at 11:27 PM on August 6, 2008

The Guardian had this today:

REASONS KATY PERRY IS NOT A BIG OLD RUBBISH HOMOPHOBE

1. In a former (and largely success-free) career she used to be a Christian singer songwriter, and Christians are all about tolerance 'n' loving The Gays.

2. Her photo shoots look like an explosion in a branch of Cath Kidston, and there are sometimes homosexual men in London's Kings Road branch of that shop.

3. She's friends with Mika - not that Mika is gay, but he is the sort of person described in UR So Gay so she can't really hate all men who aren't archetypal plumbers.

posted by grouse at 1:41 PM on August 8, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]