Bush Administration: McCain Not Tortured

August 20, 2008 1:24 PM

Bush Administration: John McCain was not tortured.
posted by WCityMike (54 comments total)

Well, I guess that settles it then.
posted by Floydd at 1:27 PM on August 20, 2008

Look, it worked for Vietnam, perhaps it will work for the US.
posted by Mister_A at 1:28 PM on August 20, 2008

A short walk off a short pier.
posted by y2karl at 1:29 PM on August 20, 2008

McCain swiftboated himself?
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:30 PM on August 20, 2008 [4 favorites has favorites]

Oh, this is good news. Where's wendell?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:32 PM on August 20, 2008

Very weak SLOE post with a misleading intro.
posted by desjardins at 1:33 PM on August 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

McCain Blamed Sadistic Gays For Ill-Treatment In Vietnam.
posted by ericb at 1:33 PM on August 20, 2008

I thought this little weird quirk-oddity was rather interesting and has been entirely unaddressed by anyone thus far. I'd love to see it posed to McCain. In fact, I may write up something for the Katie Couric Digg thread right now ...
posted by WCityMike at 1:34 PM on August 20, 2008

Fellow Vietnam POW: Why I Will Not Vote for John McCain.
posted by ericb at 1:35 PM on August 20, 2008

Uh, you guys didn't get the memo. McCain was a POW, he loves his country, he's not arrogant, he's a maverick, he's an honorable man who does not enjoy running a negative campaign, he was a POW, he loves Jesus, hates abortions, puts country first, and was a POW.
posted by billysumday at 1:36 PM on August 20, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

Andrew Sullivan: McCain's "Cross In The Dirt" Story Questioned.
posted by ericb at 1:36 PM on August 20, 2008

Is there a single shred of anything in that SLOE that's less than, let's say, three years old?
posted by Plutor at 1:37 PM on August 20, 2008

An interesting take on the topic.

what does SLOE stand for? Single Link ...?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:41 PM on August 20, 2008

Single Link Op Ed.
posted by WCityMike at 1:43 PM on August 20, 2008

SLOE
posted by everichon at 1:43 PM on August 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Damn, I was really hoping that it wasn't just a "Oh, hey, under the definitions we are using now, you were never really tortured, you just underwent an 'enhanced interrogation'" and someone had actually accused him of outright lying or something.

Because I was, just for a moment, loving the idea of watching McCain snap and start beating the shit out of Cheney and Bush.
posted by quin at 1:44 PM on August 20, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

Legend of John McCain^TM.
posted by ericb at 1:44 PM on August 20, 2008

Not to be confused with the OSBR (bmiaengnsnbomw).
posted by WCityMike at 1:44 PM on August 20, 2008

Wasn't he beaten? I don't think beating was included in any of the lists administration-approved "enhanced interrogation techniques". Sleep deprivation and stress positions, yes, but not beating.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:45 PM on August 20, 2008

This is an argument that, while sound, will at best be lost on the general public and at worst erroneously perceived as an attack on McCain.
posted by brain_drain at 1:45 PM on August 20, 2008

One-Sentence Bitch Rant (bitch meant in an entirely non-gender, non-sexist, non-bigoted, open-minded way).
posted by WCityMike at 1:45 PM on August 20, 2008

Well, this will probably be the last post in this thread, but FWIW I think Sullivan's got a hell of an interesting point.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:46 PM on August 20, 2008

I think it's less an indictment of McCain than of Bush-era newspeak.
posted by everichon at 1:49 PM on August 20, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

Looking for logical flaws in the actions and words of these people is like shooting fish in a barrel; aren't we way past the point now where anybody expects any kind of rational behaviour?
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 1:49 PM on August 20, 2008

ericb: "Fellow Vietnam POW: Why I Will Not Vote for John McCain."

Not McCain's day ... Toby Keith — TOBY FRICKIN' KEITH of all people — likes Obama.
posted by WCityMike at 1:49 PM on August 20, 2008

everichon: "I think it's less an indictment of McCain than of Bush-era newspeak."

That's very much the point I thought the article made. Except I think the fact that McCain is the heir apparent of the party, and aligning himself tightly with it, makes this somewhat an indictment of him as well. It at the very least puts him into an extremely tough spot with regards to his support of detainee torture.
posted by WCityMike at 1:51 PM on August 20, 2008

Cynthia McKinney is logically consistent.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:56 PM on August 20, 2008

Who is the grey-haired stranger there?
Maverick is the name.
Straight Talk Express to who knows where,
Luck is his companion,
Politics is his game.
Smooth as a lobbiest on the make.
Maverick is the name.
Wild as a senator on the take,
Damming up a canyon,
He won't take the blame.

Coral reefs go to hell,
Let's drill an offshore well.
Greed is the lady that he loves the best.
Gitmo to Washington
Let's torture just for fun
Maverick is a legend of the west.
posted by Floydd at 1:59 PM on August 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

I doubt he was tortured as much as the logic of the current administration.
posted by blue_beetle at 2:00 PM on August 20, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

Cynthia McKinney is logically consistent.

And if you say otherwise, she'll slap you.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:01 PM on August 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Isn't Toby Keith that country singer that has a song about lynching people?

So it's "lynch only the poor black people. Obama is okay with me"?
posted by giraffe at 2:04 PM on August 20, 2008

And if you say otherwise, she'll slap you.

That's because she's strong on defense.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 2:08 PM on August 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Ya' gotta love how McCain and his staff throw around his POW status.

"McCain’s staff bristled at suggestions that McCain listened to the broadcast [of Obama's Q&A with Rev. Rick Warren] while en route to the church.

'The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,' said McCain spokeswoman Nicolle Wallace. [NYT, Aug. 18, 2008]

What McCain’s Vietnam War-era POW status had to do with this wasn’t clear. But it was clear that Warren’s assurance that 'we have safely placed Senator McCain in a cone of silence' wasn’t true, nor was McCain’s light-hearted remark about trying to hear through the wall."^*

posted by ericb at 2:08 PM on August 20, 2008

SLOW
posted by Debaser626 at 2:09 PM on August 20, 2008

This argument will only work with rational people. brain_drain pretty much nailed it. :
"This is an argument that, while sound, will at best be lost on the general public and at worst erroneously perceived as an attack on McCain."

I grew up in West Texas, and the folks there are good folks, but their penchant for pithy witticisms eclipses their ability to entertain rational debate and implement critical thought. Metaphors are mental shortcuts. This is the case with a lot of Americans.

The one thing the Democrats really, really, need to do to win, is to go straight to ground. Like some martial arts styles, it's not about winning fairly or with honor, it's about winning with certainty and immediacy. Politics is debate on the level of third graders - whoever does the best name-calling wins.

Besides, invoking Bush is a poor gambit. Play the doddering old boozing adulterous fool card until everyone wants to scream. Don't even think about discussing policies, or you lose all the people who despise effete hand-wringing intellectualism and confuse it with rationalism.
posted by Xoebe at 2:10 PM on August 20, 2008 [2 favorites has favorites]

George Bush has been very clear that "we do not torture," because "any activity we conduct is within the law." As Dick Cheney's lawyer clarified, laws against torture are "inapplicable to interrogations undertaken pursuant to his commander-in-chief authority." As another constitutional scholar once put it, "when the president does it that means that it is not illegal."

The enhanced interrogation techniques used by the North Vietnamese prison guards at the Hanoi Hilton in 1967 may be identical to techniques used today, but they were not authorized by the president of the United States. Therefore, John McCain was tortured, and his captors are guilty of war crimes. Q.E.D.
posted by designbot at 2:14 PM on August 20, 2008 [4 favorites has favorites]

"Do as I say, not as I do" has been the conservative mantra of the powerful forever and ever. It works (unless you're going for respect).

Two-faced people suck.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 2:18 PM on August 20, 2008

Wasn't he beaten? I don't think beating was included in any of the lists administration-approved "enhanced interrogation techniques". Sleep deprivation and stress positions, yes, but not beating.

Interestingly, the Gestapo originally banned waterboarding as too extreme, but allowed prisoners to be beaten with a stick as part of their sharpened interrogation techniques. The word translated here as "sharpened," "Verschärfte," can also be translated "enhanced." Sound familiar?
posted by EarBucket at 2:23 PM on August 20, 2008

Sorry, meant to link to this document.
posted by EarBucket at 2:23 PM on August 20, 2008

This is great. The mainstream media now has been given permission -- no, the obligation -- by the Bush administration to finally hold McCain accountable for calling Vietnamese "gooks".
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:36 PM on August 20, 2008

Aw. That's just mean.
posted by ColdChef at 2:39 PM on August 20, 2008

Let's play some Dungeons and Dragons.
posted by Artw at 2:40 PM on August 20, 2008

OK, then, I hereby give you permission--no, the obligation--to discuss Mickey Rooney's acting in Breakfast at Tiffanys.
posted by y2karl at 2:44 PM on August 20, 2008

Interestingly, the Gestapo originally banned waterboarding as too extreme

*blink*

How's that democracy working out for ya, America?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 2:48 PM on August 20, 2008

Let's play some Dungeons and Dragons.

John McCain Campaign Takes a +3 Vorpal Blade to Dungeons & Dragons Players

"Confronting questions about whether John McCain stole an inspiring POW story from the autobiography of a former Soviet prisoner, a campaign spokesman threw out this melee attack against a much-maligned geek pastime:

'It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement,' said McCain aide Michael Goldfarb, in a posting to the campaign website. 'But most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others.'"

posted by ericb at 2:52 PM on August 20, 2008

Gamers are not amused.

Ill-informed Comments From a McCain Staffer About Dungeons And Dragons.

McCain Campaign Cheap-Shots D&D Players.

posted by ericb at 2:54 PM on August 20, 2008

Hey, wasn't this news about the time that those torture memos came out? I dunno, wasn't that like three years ago at least?
posted by klangklangston at 2:55 PM on August 20, 2008

This post is still here? Aww...I miss the <img> tag.
posted by Brak at 2:57 PM on August 20, 2008

Not McCain's day

Would that were true, most unfortunately, he has been gaining on Obama's lead.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:57 PM on August 20, 2008

Blathering about getting the US into a war with Russia from the safe position of not being able to do it has apparently been to his advantage, as it shows he's "strong on foreign policy".
posted by Artw at 3:00 PM on August 20, 2008

Not McCain's day

Would that were true, most unfortunately, he has been gaining on Obama's lead.

If by "gaining" you mean that Zogby has him ahead by five points nationally, then that's right Madam. Have I mentioned recently that there's no way we win this thing, but we have to keep supporting Obama anyway for reasons I sometimes don't quite understand?
posted by The Bellman at 3:03 PM on August 20, 2008

I can't believe this thread hasn't been deleted yet.
posted by Class Goat at 3:04 PM on August 20, 2008

Let's look at what Americans knew about George W. Bush before the 2000 election.

They knew he was arrested on July 6, 1976 for driving while intoxicated. They knew that he claimed to have given up drinking on July 28, 1986, but that footage existed of him drinking at an August 29, 1992 wedding.

They knew that his own father's Chief of Staff, Michael C. Dannenhauer, had stated that Dubya had begun using cocaine in 1977 and had been "out of control since college."

They knew that Dubya himself had been continually evasive on that question, and that when WMUR in New Hampshire asked him if he had ever used cocaine, he said, "I'm not going to talk about what I did as a child [...] it is irrelevant what I did 20 to 30 years ago [...] I have learned from any mistakes I made."

They knew that in the June 21, 2000 New York Times, Dubya said, "As far as I'm concerned, there has not been one innocent person executed since I've become governor." And they knew that Dubya said this despite the fact that during his term as governor, Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Edith Jones ruled that defendant Calvin Burdine was not entitled to a new trial ... even though Joe Frank Cannon, Burdine's attorney, slept during the trial that led to his murder conviction.

They knew that conservative columnist Tucker Carlson interviewed Dubya for the premiere issue of Talk magazine. When he asked Dubya about Karla Faye Tucker's clemency appeal, Dubya mimicked what he claimed was the condemned woman's message to him. "With pursed lips in mock desperation, [Dubya said]: 'Please don't kill me'."

They knew that in 1988, Hartford Courant associate editor David Fink asked Dubya, "When you're not talking politics, what do you and [your father] talk about?" Dubya replied, "Pussy."

They knew that in the aforementioned Talk magazine article, when asked what he wasn't good at, he instantly responded, "Sitting down and reading a 500-page book on public policy or philosophy or something.

They knew that Marvin Olasky had been advising Dubya throughout the campaign, and that Olasky was quoted as saying, "God does not forbid women to be leaders in society, but when that occurs it's usually because of the abdication of men ... I would vote for a woman for the presidency, but, again, there's a certain shame attached. Why don't you have a man who's able to step forward?"

They knew that he appointed Ralph Marquez as one of the three Commissioners of the Texas Natural Resources Conservation Commission (TNRCC). They knew that Mr. Marquez doesn't believe ozone is a poison or carcinogen. They knew that in 1999, Houston ozone was so bad that local courts ordered the creation of a system to notify area schools when the smog levels made it dangerous for students to practice sports outside.

They knew that Dubya took a huge surplus in the Texas state budget and turned it into a $750 million state budget shortfall last year, partially thanks to $1.7 billion in back-to-back tax cuts in 1997 and 1999, tax cuts he defended as "absolutely the right thing to do."

They knew that when asked on July 13, 2000 by Texas papers about the shortfall, Dubya was quoted as saying, "I did the right thing. And I think it's a little early to project the amount of money the Legislature will be dealing with. And, as you know, I hope I'm not here to have to deal with it. I'm seeking another office."

They knew that Dubya signed in May 1995 legislation that allowed concealed handguns in Texas for the first time in 125 years. But people couldn't carry their handguns into churches, hospitals and amusement parks.

They knew that Dubya got rid of that restriction in a June 1997 amendment.

They knew Marilyn Quayle told the Arizona Republic, "The caricature they made of Dan in '88 is George W."

They knew that Dubya accused the Democrats of "controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program".

They knew that Dubya said people "misunderestimated" him.

They knew that Dubya referred to those of Greek nationality as "Grecians."

They knew that on November 4, 1999, WHDH-TV reporter Andy Hiller asked Dubya to name the leaders of Chechyna, India, Pakistan and Taiwan. He only knew Taiwan's (and that only by saying 'Lee'), not knowing the other three.

They knew he mistook Slovakia for Slovenia.

They knew that in February 2000, Canadian comedian Rick Mercer informed Dubya that Canadian Prime Minister "Jean Poutine" had just endorsed Dubya's candidacy for the presidency. Dubya responded he was honored and would work closely with the premier.

They knew that Canada's Prime Minister was Jean Chretien. Poutine is a Quebec dish made with french fries and cheese.

They knew that in the October 19, 2000 issue of Time, Dubya said we should pull out of Haiti. (We were out. We had 34 people there.)

They knew that in the same interview, Dubya called Nigeria a continent.

They knew this, and despite this, 49,820,518 Americans thought it over and decided that Bush would do a far better job at running the country than that egghead stiff Al Gore would.

In this country?

McCain is a goddamn fucking shoo-in.
posted by WCityMike at 3:11 PM on August 20, 2008 [16 favorites has favorites]

This is pretty weak tea.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 3:13 PM on August 20, 2008