Holiday in the Sun
August 24, 2008 10:23 AM Subscribe
That young British tourists vacationing in Europe, especially (but not exclusively) in southern Europe during the summer months, often have a nasty reputation for disorderly displays of public drunkenness , lewdness and hooliganism is not exactly news (see here, here, and--for a somewhat related old mefi thread--here), but lately the situation may be getting worse (see here, here, and here).
But should the British be singled out? Some say yes.
Astro Zombie: That's because children are little fascists, not because English children are particularly bad.
And yes, single them out all you like. If they don't want the victimisation, they shouldn't go to the boozy resorts: I have literally never come across any anti-British feeling where I go on holiday. But those places aren't boozy resorts.
posted by athenian at 10:46 AM on August 24, 2008
And yes, single them out all you like. If they don't want the victimisation, they shouldn't go to the boozy resorts: I have literally never come across any anti-British feeling where I go on holiday. But those places aren't boozy resorts.
posted by athenian at 10:46 AM on August 24, 2008
worthy of an FPP?
Why not: when over 2,000 British citizens are being arrested per year in Spain for petty crimes related to public drunkenness, there may be a sociological phenomena worth exploring here (i.e. is there some reason, such as cultural repression, British tourists seem more prone to this kind of thing than other European nationalities)?
posted by ornate insect at 10:49 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Why not: when over 2,000 British citizens are being arrested per year in Spain for petty crimes related to public drunkenness, there may be a sociological phenomena worth exploring here (i.e. is there some reason, such as cultural repression, British tourists seem more prone to this kind of thing than other European nationalities)?
posted by ornate insect at 10:49 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Wait a minute, people on vacation like to get drunk and rowdy? Stop the presses!
posted by jonmc at 10:50 AM on August 24, 2008
posted by jonmc at 10:50 AM on August 24, 2008
So is this where we complain about those fucking British fuckos? They suck, amirite?
posted by Meatbomb at 10:52 AM on August 24, 2008
posted by Meatbomb at 10:52 AM on August 24, 2008
Wait a minute, people on vacation like to get drunk and rowdy? Stop the presses!
Tell this to the guy that gets barfed upon, as opposed to being invited to join the party.
posted by elpapacito at 10:54 AM on August 24, 2008
Tell this to the guy that gets barfed upon, as opposed to being invited to join the party.
posted by elpapacito at 10:54 AM on August 24, 2008
I appreciate the boisterous Britons on holiday as they make the Americans not look so bad.
posted by birdherder at 10:54 AM on August 24, 2008 [10 favorites]
posted by birdherder at 10:54 AM on August 24, 2008 [10 favorites]
‘Binge’ drinking, British alcohol policy and the new culture of intoxication
posted by ornate insect at 10:56 AM on August 24, 2008
posted by ornate insect at 10:56 AM on August 24, 2008
Tell this to the guy that gets barfed upon, as opposed to being invited to join the party.
Well, that's just bad form. The correct response is, 'Sorry, I yuked on your Filas, mate. Fancy a pint?'
posted by jonmc at 10:56 AM on August 24, 2008
Well, that's just bad form. The correct response is, 'Sorry, I yuked on your Filas, mate. Fancy a pint?'
posted by jonmc at 10:56 AM on August 24, 2008
[I would encourage Ornate Insect not to moderate their own thread]
A Canadian friend of mine with a PhD in Laws who lives in the UK and who has worked on human rights issues with the UN and with a well-known NGO (I say this emphasize his credibility) says that, yes, things are getting worse in the UK. He says that "binge drinking" has been recognized by the government as the country's number-one health problem, and the problem exists across classes and incomes, including the rich bankers in the City who have done so well over the past few years.
He suggests it's because Thatcherism (a course uncorrected during the Blair years) has resulted in a society that does not function; the economic reforms of Thatcherism has resulted in tremendous economic pressure for most families.
Ultimately, says my lawyer friend, Britain is a society in decline.
The caveat here is that my friend is essentially an academic, and has, if not a Marxist background, at least a firm grounding in New Left or counterculture ideas. But he's lived in Britain and then Europe for ten years, so he sees what he sees.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:00 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
A Canadian friend of mine with a PhD in Laws who lives in the UK and who has worked on human rights issues with the UN and with a well-known NGO (I say this emphasize his credibility) says that, yes, things are getting worse in the UK. He says that "binge drinking" has been recognized by the government as the country's number-one health problem, and the problem exists across classes and incomes, including the rich bankers in the City who have done so well over the past few years.
He suggests it's because Thatcherism (a course uncorrected during the Blair years) has resulted in a society that does not function; the economic reforms of Thatcherism has resulted in tremendous economic pressure for most families.
Ultimately, says my lawyer friend, Britain is a society in decline.
The caveat here is that my friend is essentially an academic, and has, if not a Marxist background, at least a firm grounding in New Left or counterculture ideas. But he's lived in Britain and then Europe for ten years, so he sees what he sees.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:00 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
You can single them* out all you want, but will they care?
*I am British. I do not behave like this. They are entirely separate from who I am.
posted by saturnine at 11:04 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
*I am British. I do not behave like this. They are entirely separate from who I am.
posted by saturnine at 11:04 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
This doesn't even take into account the English football fan uprisings at Champions League matches in Rome, Moscow and Athens.
posted by Zambrano at 11:04 AM on August 24, 2008
posted by Zambrano at 11:04 AM on August 24, 2008
A useful explication of this important sociological phenomenon is found in these two Sid the Sexist videos.
posted by Tube at 11:08 AM on August 24, 2008
posted by Tube at 11:08 AM on August 24, 2008
I think you'll find it's the english that are the problem - give me a break with this 'british' stuff.
(ok we're arseholes too but it's more falling over in kilts and disgusting the residents of krakow - rangers fans qualify as british though : )
agree with koku - any look at the blackboards outside the pubs with last weeks football games still advertised tells you something.
posted by sgt.serenity at 11:10 AM on August 24, 2008
(ok we're arseholes too but it's more falling over in kilts and disgusting the residents of krakow - rangers fans qualify as british though : )
agree with koku - any look at the blackboards outside the pubs with last weeks football games still advertised tells you something.
posted by sgt.serenity at 11:10 AM on August 24, 2008
So, hell yes, they should be singled out, because I am still bitter. Pronounced "bit-TER."
Not "BiDD-r"? :-)
Don't worry about the whole taking-the-piss-out-of-Americans thing, it's a national pasttime in the UK, second only to taking-the-piss-out-of-the-French.
I'm with Athenian, I've never encountered anti-British sentiment on holiday in Europe, but I don't go to "the usual places". The stereotypical behaviour discussed in the FPP's links is sadly not just an "on holiday" trend, it can get just as bad in many British city centres, too.
Now get off my lawn.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 11:14 AM on August 24, 2008
Not "BiDD-r"? :-)
Don't worry about the whole taking-the-piss-out-of-Americans thing, it's a national pasttime in the UK, second only to taking-the-piss-out-of-the-French.
I'm with Athenian, I've never encountered anti-British sentiment on holiday in Europe, but I don't go to "the usual places". The stereotypical behaviour discussed in the FPP's links is sadly not just an "on holiday" trend, it can get just as bad in many British city centres, too.
Now get off my lawn.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 11:14 AM on August 24, 2008
Tell this to the guy that gets barfed upon
You mean, that's not how the English greet one another? Someone brief the White House before we have an international incident.
posted by JaredSeth at 11:15 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
You mean, that's not how the English greet one another? Someone brief the White House before we have an international incident.
posted by JaredSeth at 11:15 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
You mean, that's not how the English greet one another? Someone brief the White House before we have an international incident.
Brings a whole new meaning to "Yo,Bleargh Blair".
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 11:21 AM on August 24, 2008
Brings a whole new meaning to "Yo,
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 11:21 AM on August 24, 2008
...resulted in a society that does not function
That's a bit vague, I don't want to start trying to defend Britain but I'm sure its declining just as much as other Western countries. Booze cruises could just be a sign we want to laud it over our European neighbours and use our increased relative wealth to do so.
Also, package holidays from the UK to Spain helped overthrow Franco.
posted by RufusW at 11:31 AM on August 24, 2008
That's a bit vague, I don't want to start trying to defend Britain but I'm sure its declining just as much as other Western countries. Booze cruises could just be a sign we want to laud it over our European neighbours and use our increased relative wealth to do so.
Also, package holidays from the UK to Spain helped overthrow Franco.
posted by RufusW at 11:31 AM on August 24, 2008
He says that "binge drinking" has been recognized by the government as the country's number-one health problem
But in this case it's much the same as the US (and to a lesser extent, our) government identifying terrorism as the number one threat to the country. It's pandering moral panic bullshit.
posted by cillit bang at 11:31 AM on August 24, 2008
But in this case it's much the same as the US (and to a lesser extent, our) government identifying terrorism as the number one threat to the country. It's pandering moral panic bullshit.
posted by cillit bang at 11:31 AM on August 24, 2008
One of my saddest mental images of the British comes from flying in to Athens last May on the night of the Euro final between Liverpool and Milan .... I wasn't there for the match, in fact it had already finished with Milan the winner .... walking out of the airport around 1am , the crowds of haggard, depressed drunk Brits looked like a bunch of Dawn-of-the-Dead extras
posted by mannequito at 11:32 AM on August 24, 2008
posted by mannequito at 11:32 AM on August 24, 2008
Easy solution to this -- legalize ecstasy.
posted by empath at 11:36 AM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by empath at 11:36 AM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
The problem with this post is that there's no link attached to "lewdness".
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:36 AM on August 24, 2008
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:36 AM on August 24, 2008
The problem with this post is that there's no link attached to "lewdness".
Ah, but did you miss this link? (Also: somewhat related). And see also this.
posted by ornate insect at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2008
Ah, but did you miss this link? (Also: somewhat related). And see also this.
posted by ornate insect at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2008
It is indeed systemic in Britain. I know some people from both the US and Britain, in the legal end of the insurance business. The Brits make a salary less than half their US counterparts, but are often treated to business trips, usually billed to clients, where excessive drinking and plain-brown-wrapper expenses at strip clubs and similar venues constitute at least a 25% bonus incentive above their base salaries. They grab onto these opportunities with desperate enthusiasm.
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:57 AM on August 24, 2008
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:57 AM on August 24, 2008
Easy solution to this -- legalize ecstasy.
let's bring back opium while we're at it!
posted by heeeraldo at 12:00 PM on August 24, 2008
let's bring back opium while we're at it!
posted by heeeraldo at 12:00 PM on August 24, 2008
a society that does not function
ZANULABUR PF AND GORDON CLOWNS BROKEN BRITUN!!!1
We are a nation of wankers and bellends though.
posted by influx at 12:02 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
ZANULABUR PF AND GORDON CLOWNS BROKEN BRITUN!!!1
We are a nation of wankers and bellends though.
posted by influx at 12:02 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't know, I doubt this trend. British youths here in Amsterdam seem to get stoned like all other tourists.
posted by dhoe at 12:05 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by dhoe at 12:05 PM on August 24, 2008
But in this case it's much the same as the US (and to a lesser extent, our) government identifying terrorism as the number one threat to the country. It's pandering moral panic bullshit.
posted by cillit bang at 7:31 PM on August 24
Well, except that:
The British Medical Association is very worried about alcohol consumption among young people, particularly young girls. It is shocking that, in Europe, the UK's teenagers are most likely to be heavy drinkers," Dr Vivienne Nathanson, the BMA's head of science and ethics, said. The BMA report called for a raft of measures to be introduced and pointed to alarming statistics on how much youngsters, particularly teenage girls, drink. It said UK teenagers are among the most likely in Europe to admit heavy drinking and being intoxicated
Britons are heavier drinkers than the Russians, according to official data from the World Health Organisation. Alcohol consumption per head is greater in the UK, and England on its own tops the European table for child and teenage drunkenness.
Anecdotally, as a new resident of London and thus seeing it from outside, I was astounded by how much people drink here. The pubs are crowded with people of all ages, holding their pints in their hand. Where I work, in the business district, men in suits at lunch are guzzling down pints during their lunch hour. My own experience with my NHS doctor:
Her: So how many glasses of alcohol do you have per week?
Me: 1 or 2?
Her: per day?
Me: Uh, no...per week.
Her: So thats pints? bottles?
Me: Uh, no...glasses. Like you asked.
She writes down some notes and looks at me disbelievingly...
posted by vacapinta at 12:08 PM on August 24, 2008 [7 favorites]
posted by cillit bang at 7:31 PM on August 24
Well, except that:
The British Medical Association is very worried about alcohol consumption among young people, particularly young girls. It is shocking that, in Europe, the UK's teenagers are most likely to be heavy drinkers," Dr Vivienne Nathanson, the BMA's head of science and ethics, said. The BMA report called for a raft of measures to be introduced and pointed to alarming statistics on how much youngsters, particularly teenage girls, drink. It said UK teenagers are among the most likely in Europe to admit heavy drinking and being intoxicated
Britons are heavier drinkers than the Russians, according to official data from the World Health Organisation. Alcohol consumption per head is greater in the UK, and England on its own tops the European table for child and teenage drunkenness.
Anecdotally, as a new resident of London and thus seeing it from outside, I was astounded by how much people drink here. The pubs are crowded with people of all ages, holding their pints in their hand. Where I work, in the business district, men in suits at lunch are guzzling down pints during their lunch hour. My own experience with my NHS doctor:
Her: So how many glasses of alcohol do you have per week?
Me: 1 or 2?
Her: per day?
Me: Uh, no...per week.
Her: So thats pints? bottles?
Me: Uh, no...glasses. Like you asked.
She writes down some notes and looks at me disbelievingly...
posted by vacapinta at 12:08 PM on August 24, 2008 [7 favorites]
Why not: when over 2,000 British citizens are being arrested per year in Spain for petty crimes related to public drunkenness,
Yeah, but the average Brit's definition of petty crimes related to public drunkenness and mine might differ wildly.
I mean, I'm from New Zealand. We aren't exactly the most elevated nation in the world when it comes to drinking and violence. But my most recent stint in Britain made me feel like we're on a different planet. The levels of booze, casual violence, and rampant mysogyny amongst the other 20-somethings I was around was amazing to me, and way beyond what I've seen anywhere else I've spent any time.
I've not spent enough time in mainland Europe to know whether the places the Brits descend on would be better or worse on their own.
posted by rodgerd at 12:08 PM on August 24, 2008
Yeah, but the average Brit's definition of petty crimes related to public drunkenness and mine might differ wildly.
I mean, I'm from New Zealand. We aren't exactly the most elevated nation in the world when it comes to drinking and violence. But my most recent stint in Britain made me feel like we're on a different planet. The levels of booze, casual violence, and rampant mysogyny amongst the other 20-somethings I was around was amazing to me, and way beyond what I've seen anywhere else I've spent any time.
I've not spent enough time in mainland Europe to know whether the places the Brits descend on would be better or worse on their own.
posted by rodgerd at 12:08 PM on August 24, 2008
This may already be on the decline. The pub trade is in decline, post smoking ban. Disposable income is dropping. A hole has opened up in the public accounts, and booze and flights are certain to be targets for increased taxation (for public health and environmental reasons, obviously).
That said, with occasional variations to take into account things like Puritanism, exuberant public drunkenness has been part of the British character since 1349 and although it is at high tide now, it is not new.
I am British, and teetotal.
posted by WPW at 12:11 PM on August 24, 2008
That said, with occasional variations to take into account things like Puritanism, exuberant public drunkenness has been part of the British character since 1349 and although it is at high tide now, it is not new.
I am British, and teetotal.
posted by WPW at 12:11 PM on August 24, 2008
But should the British be singled out?
that Bild had to look all the way over to russia to find anyone else to complain about should serve as a pretty good indicator for how unrivalled british tourists are when combined with cheap alcohol. there are plenty other nations exporting their liquorhappy workforce once or twice each year (think germany, ireland, greece, italy), yet none of those nations is famous for this type of behaviour when abroad. then again they pretty much all have something else they're notorious for.
I question the merit of this FPP. metafilter does not need to sell more copies at the newsstand, it's not in competition for tv ratings and I sincerely doubt you are interested in facilitating change, in which case you probably would have chosen a more effective venue like a ballot box or added a call to action. so why is this really on here? were you hoping to get a lot of comments?
now get off my lawn.
posted by krautland at 12:35 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
that Bild had to look all the way over to russia to find anyone else to complain about should serve as a pretty good indicator for how unrivalled british tourists are when combined with cheap alcohol. there are plenty other nations exporting their liquorhappy workforce once or twice each year (think germany, ireland, greece, italy), yet none of those nations is famous for this type of behaviour when abroad. then again they pretty much all have something else they're notorious for.
I question the merit of this FPP. metafilter does not need to sell more copies at the newsstand, it's not in competition for tv ratings and I sincerely doubt you are interested in facilitating change, in which case you probably would have chosen a more effective venue like a ballot box or added a call to action. so why is this really on here? were you hoping to get a lot of comments?
now get off my lawn.
posted by krautland at 12:35 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
There is a German saying about the English:
"God knew why he put the island-monkeys on an island but he did not expect them to build ships!"
posted by yoyo_nyc at 12:40 PM on August 24, 2008 [6 favorites]
"God knew why he put the island-monkeys on an island but he did not expect them to build ships!"
posted by yoyo_nyc at 12:40 PM on August 24, 2008 [6 favorites]
I'm British and hate being associated with these yobs. The whole yob culture thing is alien and absolutely abhorrent to me. Sometimes I'm glad I moved away.
posted by schwa at 12:41 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by schwa at 12:41 PM on August 24, 2008
I have been hosting European visitors all summer long from CouchSurfing, and the British house guests have been the most raucous. The Germans, Austrians, and French were polite and talkative; the Britons were polite and talkative when they weren't drinking, and loud and sloppy when they were drinking. They were also the most fun and the mostly likely to get invited back.
posted by HotPatatta at 12:47 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by HotPatatta at 12:47 PM on August 24, 2008
It's interesting to compare the WHO 2004 data of some countries.
posted by jouke at 12:48 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by jouke at 12:48 PM on August 24, 2008
The reason this is a good post it's because it gives a good idea of a current social trend - and the problem seems not to be just abroad, barely a day goes by in London that I don't have to dodge some drunk person - usually nicely dressed and in their 20's.
The only thing missing is a link to this article where there is a great table with the results of a poll made to tourists in Ibiza.
The britons drink more, take more ecstasy, get into more fights and have less sex. What I can't tell is if they drink because they can't laid or they can't get laid because they're drunk. Anyhow, the idea of fun seems to vary a lot across nationalities.
posted by lucia__is__dada at 12:49 PM on August 24, 2008
The only thing missing is a link to this article where there is a great table with the results of a poll made to tourists in Ibiza.
The britons drink more, take more ecstasy, get into more fights and have less sex. What I can't tell is if they drink because they can't laid or they can't get laid because they're drunk. Anyhow, the idea of fun seems to vary a lot across nationalities.
posted by lucia__is__dada at 12:49 PM on August 24, 2008
Finnish tourists (Men, late teens to mid 30s usually) do exactly the same abroad. We just don't have enough people to make a noticeable impact. Loutish drunks are the same world-over. I have first hand experience of Germans & Russians acting the same way. Don't know what it is about the British that singles them out or makes them more prone to assholish behaviour.
I got moved here to Madrid with my co-workers from the UK, so the majority of the people I work with are British. About 90% swear they will never go back if they have a choice and they all quote the decline mentioned above. I blame chavs.
A coworkers mum own a place down in Malaga and he says it's hideous down there. It's like a mini-Britain but with a better climate. That's pretty much the ultimate dream for a lot of British people, isn't it? England but with better weather.
Fuck it. I spent 5 years of my life living in England (Surrey, then London). In spite of all the English people whinging about the state of the country, I managed to fall in love with it and its people. I've been in Spain for the better part of a year and though on paper Madrid wins on every single account against London (it's cheaper, cleaner, warmer, friendlier, better public transport, the food is nicer etc.), I can not wait to go back to the UK. You guys are doing something right. Just keep exporting the loutish twats and wankers to the rest of Europe and England will be back on track.
posted by slimepuppy at 12:50 PM on August 24, 2008
I got moved here to Madrid with my co-workers from the UK, so the majority of the people I work with are British. About 90% swear they will never go back if they have a choice and they all quote the decline mentioned above. I blame chavs.
A coworkers mum own a place down in Malaga and he says it's hideous down there. It's like a mini-Britain but with a better climate. That's pretty much the ultimate dream for a lot of British people, isn't it? England but with better weather.
Fuck it. I spent 5 years of my life living in England (Surrey, then London). In spite of all the English people whinging about the state of the country, I managed to fall in love with it and its people. I've been in Spain for the better part of a year and though on paper Madrid wins on every single account against London (it's cheaper, cleaner, warmer, friendlier, better public transport, the food is nicer etc.), I can not wait to go back to the UK. You guys are doing something right. Just keep exporting the loutish twats and wankers to the rest of Europe and England will be back on track.
posted by slimepuppy at 12:50 PM on August 24, 2008
But my most recent stint in Britain made me feel like we're on a different planet. The levels of booze, casual violence, and rampant mysogyny amongst the other 20-somethings I was around was amazing to me, and way beyond what I've seen anywhere else I've spent any time.
This has been exactly my experience (as a Canadian), living in Britain for 5 years and recently visiting friends there as well. I think Brits have just gotten used to it, in the sense that a lobster gets used to a warming pot of water.
posted by Rumple at 12:55 PM on August 24, 2008
This has been exactly my experience (as a Canadian), living in Britain for 5 years and recently visiting friends there as well. I think Brits have just gotten used to it, in the sense that a lobster gets used to a warming pot of water.
posted by Rumple at 12:55 PM on August 24, 2008
These louts are a pox upon the land.
I lived in Riga, Latvia last year - and on late weekend nights (though it's less noticeable in the winter), the only people you see in the Old Town - a nearly-millenium-old UNESCO World Heritage Site jewel of Europe - are drunken tourists. Not tipsy, giggling to themselves, we-best-get-back-to-the-hotel folks. Full-on mobs of them. I've been pushed off icy sidewalks, screamed at, dodged vomit. The story is the same all over Europe, from the Canaries to Tallinn. And it's so easy to do: you can book a whole weekend in Latvia with pub crawls, paintballing, and lots of sleaze with hotels included for way less than £200: here's a "bar crawl and lap club weekend" for £99. They aren't always British, either - the Scandinavians and Finns get pretty wild too - but the sheer size of the British groups makes them unique.
For older cities in Eastern Europe, there's a really tough battle going on among local business owners: does one embrace these guys to support your business or hope local demand alone can support enough prosperity for everyone? Places like Prague and Krakow have been inundated with stag/hen (bachelor/bachelorette) parties for a few years now, but there are other reasons to visit and the cities are large enough that things aren't completely taken over yet; smaller places like Bratislava or Gdansk or Vilnius haven't had the massive numbers yet, but will soon, I imagine, and are less well-equipped - from not having enough English-speaking police officers to not having enough control over local drug/sex rings - to deal with the problems that massive numbers of wealthy tourists making bad decisions create.
I would go out with one or two English-speaking colleagues and just be flat out turned away at the door from bars on certain unpublicized "locals only" nights in Riga, regardless of the fact that I live there, because these bastards have ruined the reputation of foreigners. And I don't blame the bar owners for wanting to protect their chairs from being thrown around and their windows from being broken and their local clientele from deserting en masse. A few times I've even been sitting in a quiet bar with a few friends when twenty guys show up and take the place over - the poor bar owner then has to decide whether to eject them outright and keep the local clientele, or try and cram everyone in and watch as locals end their nights out early with smaller tabs than they would otherwise have had and try to make up the difference from the army of recent arrivals. Bar owners are also constantly raising prices to try and squeeze the foreign money as much as they can having shat in the pool, as it were, of local customers...which keeps locals away even more.
And sadly, when the tourists realize that they're being squeezed, they don't just go to another bar in town - they stop coming to town altogether; they're off to the next city ready to sell themselves out. For a place like London or Paris, this kind of instability seems normal - people are wealthy and bars open and close all the time - but in a price-sensitive market like Riga, you can't afford to be any more expensive than you already are without pushing your local market to the edge of what they can pay for. Per capita incomes in the Inner London area are the highest in the EU - and SIX TIMES what they are in Latvia.
It's basically impossible for a person from California (where in the 2000 Census, per capita income was $22,711) to go somewhere on vacation in the United States where incomes are six times lower that what they've got at home: one would have to go to Bolivia or Paraguay or something for that.
Lastly, here's the British Embassy's list of tips for "responsible travel" in Latvia. A good idea to follow most of these wherever one goes - including the bit about avoiding urination on national monuments.
posted by mdonley at 1:01 PM on August 24, 2008 [13 favorites]
I lived in Riga, Latvia last year - and on late weekend nights (though it's less noticeable in the winter), the only people you see in the Old Town - a nearly-millenium-old UNESCO World Heritage Site jewel of Europe - are drunken tourists. Not tipsy, giggling to themselves, we-best-get-back-to-the-hotel folks. Full-on mobs of them. I've been pushed off icy sidewalks, screamed at, dodged vomit. The story is the same all over Europe, from the Canaries to Tallinn. And it's so easy to do: you can book a whole weekend in Latvia with pub crawls, paintballing, and lots of sleaze with hotels included for way less than £200: here's a "bar crawl and lap club weekend" for £99. They aren't always British, either - the Scandinavians and Finns get pretty wild too - but the sheer size of the British groups makes them unique.
For older cities in Eastern Europe, there's a really tough battle going on among local business owners: does one embrace these guys to support your business or hope local demand alone can support enough prosperity for everyone? Places like Prague and Krakow have been inundated with stag/hen (bachelor/bachelorette) parties for a few years now, but there are other reasons to visit and the cities are large enough that things aren't completely taken over yet; smaller places like Bratislava or Gdansk or Vilnius haven't had the massive numbers yet, but will soon, I imagine, and are less well-equipped - from not having enough English-speaking police officers to not having enough control over local drug/sex rings - to deal with the problems that massive numbers of wealthy tourists making bad decisions create.
I would go out with one or two English-speaking colleagues and just be flat out turned away at the door from bars on certain unpublicized "locals only" nights in Riga, regardless of the fact that I live there, because these bastards have ruined the reputation of foreigners. And I don't blame the bar owners for wanting to protect their chairs from being thrown around and their windows from being broken and their local clientele from deserting en masse. A few times I've even been sitting in a quiet bar with a few friends when twenty guys show up and take the place over - the poor bar owner then has to decide whether to eject them outright and keep the local clientele, or try and cram everyone in and watch as locals end their nights out early with smaller tabs than they would otherwise have had and try to make up the difference from the army of recent arrivals. Bar owners are also constantly raising prices to try and squeeze the foreign money as much as they can having shat in the pool, as it were, of local customers...which keeps locals away even more.
And sadly, when the tourists realize that they're being squeezed, they don't just go to another bar in town - they stop coming to town altogether; they're off to the next city ready to sell themselves out. For a place like London or Paris, this kind of instability seems normal - people are wealthy and bars open and close all the time - but in a price-sensitive market like Riga, you can't afford to be any more expensive than you already are without pushing your local market to the edge of what they can pay for. Per capita incomes in the Inner London area are the highest in the EU - and SIX TIMES what they are in Latvia.
It's basically impossible for a person from California (where in the 2000 Census, per capita income was $22,711) to go somewhere on vacation in the United States where incomes are six times lower that what they've got at home: one would have to go to Bolivia or Paraguay or something for that.
Lastly, here's the British Embassy's list of tips for "responsible travel" in Latvia. A good idea to follow most of these wherever one goes - including the bit about avoiding urination on national monuments.
posted by mdonley at 1:01 PM on August 24, 2008 [13 favorites]
Re: The " disorderly displays of public drunkenness" hyperlink to the NYTimes article ...
Drunken Brits Have Their Own Beat Reporter
Drunken Brits Have Their Own Beat Reporter
"Ha ha, the New York Times ran a story about how all Brits are drunken louts and when they go on vacations to Greece they fight and vomit and drink and cuss and cross-dress so much that Crete is like, wanting to ban British citizens altogether. Ha, unruly people. But for Times reporter Sarah Lyall, all this drunken madness coverage is familiar territory. We must ask, in all seriousness: has Sarah Lyall spent her entire career on the 'Drunk-ass English people' beat? Look at this ...NYT stories by Sarah Lyall, a selection:posted by ericb at 1:04 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]6/2/06
It's Springtime for Soccer, And For Rowdy England Fans
1/11/06
Ever Since Falstaff, Getting Sloshed Is Cricket
7/22/04
British Worry That Drinking Has Gotten Out of Hand
9/2/02
What is it About British Men? Cheap, Drunk, and Stiff-Lipped
5/1/00
Later Pub Hours? Europe Tells Britain It's Time
There's more!"
10 years ago, I lived on the Costa del Sol for a couple of years, plying my trade as a singer. It was a nightmare - more than "Britain ... with a better climate", it was all the worst parts of Britain and none of the good - petty criminals, alcoholism, violence, casual racism, misogyny and crippling insularity. I left after two seasons...
When I chose to return to Spain, five years ago, I came to a point as far as I could from the Costa - Barcelona. It's better, but it's not immune to the problems. Cheap, quick flights, cheap booze and reputation as a "hen and stag night mecca" means that every Friday sees an influx of (mainly) British tourists who hit Café Zurich mid-afternoon and drink until they burn, before heading back to the their hotel, changing and coming out again to start drinking at 7pm. They're unused to the measures (spirits are mixed much more strongly here than in the UK), the strength of the tap lager (5-6% rather than 2-3%) and the effects of heat and attendant fluid loss on the ability to take onboard alcohol. The only good thing is their totally mullared by 10pm, in bed by 11pm and we locals can come out to play at 1pm knowing the town's ours again!
posted by benzo8 at 1:05 PM on August 24, 2008
When I chose to return to Spain, five years ago, I came to a point as far as I could from the Costa - Barcelona. It's better, but it's not immune to the problems. Cheap, quick flights, cheap booze and reputation as a "hen and stag night mecca" means that every Friday sees an influx of (mainly) British tourists who hit Café Zurich mid-afternoon and drink until they burn, before heading back to the their hotel, changing and coming out again to start drinking at 7pm. They're unused to the measures (spirits are mixed much more strongly here than in the UK), the strength of the tap lager (5-6% rather than 2-3%) and the effects of heat and attendant fluid loss on the ability to take onboard alcohol. The only good thing is their totally mullared by 10pm, in bed by 11pm and we locals can come out to play at 1pm knowing the town's ours again!
posted by benzo8 at 1:05 PM on August 24, 2008
I think compared to Europe it might be something to do with the work culture. Bear with me.
Essentially, Brits are forced to work pretty hard for long hours, due to being less left-leaning than the likes of the French etc. (who are trying to increase the amount of hours they are allowed to work per week). They also get paid pretty well to do so, and the strength of the pound against the Euro and Dollar etc. has meant that when abroad, things are cheap. Couple that to the impact of Easyjet and Ryanair (cheap flights abroad1), and you've got a lot of comparitively well off Brits abroad.
Add to that the limited time off (and perhaps the lack of a non-alcohol related down-time culture - one thing most associated with the UK is pubs), and when abroad, what will they do? Booze, and booze hard, because alcohol is what they do in their free time, and suddenly they can afford a whole lot more of it.
You could also argue that there's a lot less for kids to get involved in - I believe (can't cite, so correct me if I'm wrong) that the state schools decreased the extra-curricular activities on offer, especially sport, in the last few years. Now that obesity is becoming an issue, I think sport is being ramped up, but there's still a gap where the thing to do after school/college is to go and sit in a pub.
1 - And the airlines have to keep flying to maintain their slots at various airports, hence frequent 'flights for a fiver' deals.
posted by djgh at 1:10 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Essentially, Brits are forced to work pretty hard for long hours, due to being less left-leaning than the likes of the French etc. (who are trying to increase the amount of hours they are allowed to work per week). They also get paid pretty well to do so, and the strength of the pound against the Euro and Dollar etc. has meant that when abroad, things are cheap. Couple that to the impact of Easyjet and Ryanair (cheap flights abroad1), and you've got a lot of comparitively well off Brits abroad.
Add to that the limited time off (and perhaps the lack of a non-alcohol related down-time culture - one thing most associated with the UK is pubs), and when abroad, what will they do? Booze, and booze hard, because alcohol is what they do in their free time, and suddenly they can afford a whole lot more of it.
You could also argue that there's a lot less for kids to get involved in - I believe (can't cite, so correct me if I'm wrong) that the state schools decreased the extra-curricular activities on offer, especially sport, in the last few years. Now that obesity is becoming an issue, I think sport is being ramped up, but there's still a gap where the thing to do after school/college is to go and sit in a pub.
1 - And the airlines have to keep flying to maintain their slots at various airports, hence frequent 'flights for a fiver' deals.
posted by djgh at 1:10 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Finnish tourists (Men, late teens to mid 30s usually) do exactly the same abroad.
What? Binge drinking on holiday? Who doesn't? Is there another reason to go on holiday?
But slimepuppy, one does not have to spenid too many vacation evenings on the Costa del Sol, or Mallorca, or Crete to see that the British lads and "ladettes" are in a class by themselves. Finns and Scandinavians get pissed ("drunker than ten thousand Indians" as my friend from South Dakota says) and then they actually begin talking, sometimes loudly. You may even hear them becoming boastful. British lads get pissed like it's their first's real drunk - although it's obvious that it isn't- form gangs and go looking for trouble which they invariably find. That guy or gal you see on the beach with the bright red skin and black eye? Odds are it's a Brit.
posted by three blind mice at 1:15 PM on August 24, 2008
What? Binge drinking on holiday? Who doesn't? Is there another reason to go on holiday?
But slimepuppy, one does not have to spenid too many vacation evenings on the Costa del Sol, or Mallorca, or Crete to see that the British lads and "ladettes" are in a class by themselves. Finns and Scandinavians get pissed ("drunker than ten thousand Indians" as my friend from South Dakota says) and then they actually begin talking, sometimes loudly. You may even hear them becoming boastful. British lads get pissed like it's their first's real drunk - although it's obvious that it isn't- form gangs and go looking for trouble which they invariably find. That guy or gal you see on the beach with the bright red skin and black eye? Odds are it's a Brit.
posted by three blind mice at 1:15 PM on August 24, 2008
What I can't tell is if they drink because they can't laid or they can't get laid because they're drunk.
No. It's because they're all ugly. With bad teeth.
I kid. It's a joke, really.
posted by ericb at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2008
No. It's because they're all ugly. With bad teeth.
I kid. It's a joke, really.
posted by ericb at 1:19 PM on August 24, 2008
so why is this really on here? were you hoping to get a lot of comments?
Because it's an interesting topic that's been getting a lot of press recently.
I realize it's a topic that can easily become sensationalistic, overblown and too hastily generalized about, but I also think there is a genuinely pronounced drinking culture in the UK that is perhaps symptomatic of cultural repression and traditional class anxiety (see for instance the much-discussed football hooliganism): it's a sociological issue, a public health issue, etc.
My goal was to get discussion, including hopefully good arguments against the notion that any problem like this exists.
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with djgh above that the explosion in cheap flights and cheap tourist packages (many to formerly Eastern Block countries) that began in the 1990s has been a contributing factor.
Also, assuming the comments are worth reading, is wanting to get many comments necessarily bad?
posted by ornate insect at 1:32 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Because it's an interesting topic that's been getting a lot of press recently.
I realize it's a topic that can easily become sensationalistic, overblown and too hastily generalized about, but I also think there is a genuinely pronounced drinking culture in the UK that is perhaps symptomatic of cultural repression and traditional class anxiety (see for instance the much-discussed football hooliganism): it's a sociological issue, a public health issue, etc.
My goal was to get discussion, including hopefully good arguments against the notion that any problem like this exists.
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with djgh above that the explosion in cheap flights and cheap tourist packages (many to formerly Eastern Block countries) that began in the 1990s has been a contributing factor.
Also, assuming the comments are worth reading, is wanting to get many comments necessarily bad?
posted by ornate insect at 1:32 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Essentially, Brits are forced to work pretty hard for long hours, due to being less left-leaning than the likes of the French etc
*Laughs out loud*
Obviously, you have not studied these species in the wild. Wellington's bunch of rabble were not the result of politics. The Islander has a native aggression, raw courage, and physical toughness unknown on the continent. I spend alot of time in bars, seen a lot of fights, been in my share, and I'll tell you this: you want to pick a fight in a bar, choose the Frenchman.
posted by three blind mice at 1:35 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
*Laughs out loud*
Obviously, you have not studied these species in the wild. Wellington's bunch of rabble were not the result of politics. The Islander has a native aggression, raw courage, and physical toughness unknown on the continent. I spend alot of time in bars, seen a lot of fights, been in my share, and I'll tell you this: you want to pick a fight in a bar, choose the Frenchman.
posted by three blind mice at 1:35 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
kinda OT: "The local Hellenes are at once bemused, suspicious and surreptitiously grateful. Since 1990, once-homogenous Greece has received a vast influx of labour migrants from ex-communist Europe, Africa and Asia." + from that olympic sex article: "There is something deepseated in humanity that leads us to play by different rules whenever we leave town, a phenomenon that has caused instances of terrible inhumanity."
on and re: drinking :P
A kick in the Nuts: "The circulations of ‘lads’ magazines are on the slide; UK beer sales are in decline and football is not as cool as it once was." also btw U.K. Brewers Try to Tap Women's Market
...cheers!
posted by kliuless at 1:36 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
on and re: drinking :P
A kick in the Nuts: "The circulations of ‘lads’ magazines are on the slide; UK beer sales are in decline and football is not as cool as it once was." also btw U.K. Brewers Try to Tap Women's Market
...cheers!
posted by kliuless at 1:36 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Why Do Men Stupify Themselves?" An essay by Leo Tolstoy on drinking, etc. I read this as a 20 year old, and thought, "That Tolstoy, he could write a pretty good novel when he put his mind to it, but this is garbage." Many, many years of participation and observation later, I can see that he's mostly right.
posted by Faze at 1:43 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Faze at 1:43 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
"Why Do Men Stupify Themselves?"
Because life's a bitch and getting loaded feels good?
Today's public service message has been brought to you by the Institute for The Study Of The Incredibly Obvious at the Institute of Duhhhh!
posted by jonmc at 1:46 PM on August 24, 2008
Because life's a bitch and getting loaded feels good?
Today's public service message has been brought to you by the Institute for The Study Of The Incredibly Obvious at the Institute of Duhhhh!
posted by jonmc at 1:46 PM on August 24, 2008
"package holidays from the UK to Spain helped overthrow Franco."
Citation, please, not that I necessarily disbelieve you.
posted by imperium at 1:46 PM on August 24, 2008
Citation, please, not that I necessarily disbelieve you.
posted by imperium at 1:46 PM on August 24, 2008
Franco dying was pretty much what overthrew him.... Package holiday's had little to do with that.
posted by benzo8 at 1:50 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by benzo8 at 1:50 PM on August 24, 2008
I'm a Canadian finishing a 3.5 year stint in Nottingham. I was a little surprised to read about people's impressions of London above, because compared to Nottingham on a Saturday night, London always seems so civilized and tame to me. Nottingham city centre is a few square miles jammed with drunks, and there are a mind-boggling number of bars. It reminds me of what it's like the first week or two of university in Canadian cities, except it's like that every weekend. And it's not just students... it's the girls on a hen night wobbling on their heels to the next bar. It's the lads before, during and after the football game. It's the middle-aged ladies' night out at the karaoke bar.
The taxi drivers say that Fridays and Saturdays near the end of the month are always the worst because of pay-day.
Not that you need that much money... alcohol is cheap here, especially relative to the rest of life. £10 gets you 4 or 5 pints of beer in most English cities, and there just aren't that many other things you can do for £10. Restaurants are expensive for one. And here in the Midlands it's rare to find a cafe open past 6, and if it is, chances are they serve booze there anyway.
I've met some fabulous people here and there are aspects to life that I find appealing -- for one, I love a proper English pub as much as the next guy. But the proper English pubs are nice because they're quiet and surprisingly civilized. And they're nice because that *isn't* where the yobs go. They're at the Wetherspoon and Yates's Wine Lodge, and they're drinking crappy lager and hard liquor at 3 shots for the price of 1. There's something rotten at the core here. Life in England to me on the whole seems hard and pretty short on comforts when I compare to almost any other Western country. I can't help thinking most people are drinking to forget about their boring job, their bad mortgage on their tiny flat, the eye-gouging price of gas. And if they can do it in Southern Spain to escape the shitty weather too, so much better.
posted by attaboy at 2:02 PM on August 24, 2008 [10 favorites]
The taxi drivers say that Fridays and Saturdays near the end of the month are always the worst because of pay-day.
Not that you need that much money... alcohol is cheap here, especially relative to the rest of life. £10 gets you 4 or 5 pints of beer in most English cities, and there just aren't that many other things you can do for £10. Restaurants are expensive for one. And here in the Midlands it's rare to find a cafe open past 6, and if it is, chances are they serve booze there anyway.
I've met some fabulous people here and there are aspects to life that I find appealing -- for one, I love a proper English pub as much as the next guy. But the proper English pubs are nice because they're quiet and surprisingly civilized. And they're nice because that *isn't* where the yobs go. They're at the Wetherspoon and Yates's Wine Lodge, and they're drinking crappy lager and hard liquor at 3 shots for the price of 1. There's something rotten at the core here. Life in England to me on the whole seems hard and pretty short on comforts when I compare to almost any other Western country. I can't help thinking most people are drinking to forget about their boring job, their bad mortgage on their tiny flat, the eye-gouging price of gas. And if they can do it in Southern Spain to escape the shitty weather too, so much better.
posted by attaboy at 2:02 PM on August 24, 2008 [10 favorites]
smaller places like Bratislava or Gdansk or Vilnius haven't had the massive numbers yet, but will soon, I imagine
I hope not. The local louts are enough. For Euro 2012, I intend to close the shutters and get out of town until the rain has washed the puke away.
posted by pracowity at 2:07 PM on August 24, 2008
I hope not. The local louts are enough. For Euro 2012, I intend to close the shutters and get out of town until the rain has washed the puke away.
posted by pracowity at 2:07 PM on August 24, 2008
I am American and I say "bit-ah" but I don't drink it. I drink lahg-ah. When I go to UK I drink cidah but I have never puked on anyone or rioted. And nobody in the UK did that to me either, they just bought me something called beer yards and whiskey (purely for taste comparison purposes). My UK friends don't cause trouble overseas, either. We must travel in different circles than the people in these articles.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:10 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:10 PM on August 24, 2008
The island's crowded, the empire's been waning for more than half a century, Maggie Thatcher's a heartless bitch who played entirely to the greedy and soulless, but mainly I think we can blame blame Oasis? Liam in particular.
posted by philip-random at 2:11 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by philip-random at 2:11 PM on August 24, 2008
If it makes Brits feel any better, I work at a store in NYC that's something of a tourist attraction and we employees find Europeans in general somewhat annoying, to the point that this has become something of a rallying cry.
posted by jonmc at 2:48 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by jonmc at 2:48 PM on August 24, 2008
HURL BRITANNIA!
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:48 PM on August 24, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:48 PM on August 24, 2008 [5 favorites]
But the dictatorship would have continued after his death if there was no internal pressure to reform (someone else would have been like, "geee, this is a good job!"). Sorry, no citation, got taught it a couple of years ago.
Friday nights are all about getting pissed in England - it's totally about relieving stress and forgetting the 9-5 job.
posted by RufusW at 2:50 PM on August 24, 2008
Friday nights are all about getting pissed in England - it's totally about relieving stress and forgetting the 9-5 job.
posted by RufusW at 2:50 PM on August 24, 2008
Also, Brtain brought us Chris Morris, so I give them a lot of leeway.
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:50 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:50 PM on August 24, 2008
Well, not everyone. But public drunkenness - people shouting in the street drunkenness - is simply much less common in comparable areas of the US.
Hurrah! We are best! In your face yanks! Stuff your wussy puritanical liquor laws written by fussy old ladies who think it's still the 1800s!
Also Justin Webb appears to be from the Isle of Wight is entirely full of tory idiots and mu-tards, so fuck that shit!
posted by Artw at 2:51 PM on August 24, 2008
Talking as an English man with 26 years on this island I have to say that I consider this is, sadly, a culture infatuated with alcohol. The stereotype of the continental europeans having a different attitude though is something that in my experience is not particularly true. Northern Europeans in particular appear to have a penchant for drunkeness. In the UK getting drunk is seen as an end in itself. One talks of 'going out on the lash' - ie with the aim to get paraletic. Working in the Square Mile I see this culture at firsthand across all class levels from the barrow boys working in the back office, to the old boys with the 4 hour lunches signing off the multi million pound deals.
For me, I occasionally drink but take no enjoyment in the loss of control that alcohol brings with it. As a person deeply interested in politics I'd probably take a situationist perspective and consider the benefits of this societys addiction and who wins in its pro-longing. At another level, given the mononity of day to day living for the vast inhabitants of this island - I can understand why losing control makes sense. One may also with to consider the deep reserve that is drilled into people (interestingly if one looks at Japan, another culture with reserve as another cultural stereotype they too are reknowned for their taste for alcohol).
posted by numberstation at 2:56 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
For me, I occasionally drink but take no enjoyment in the loss of control that alcohol brings with it. As a person deeply interested in politics I'd probably take a situationist perspective and consider the benefits of this societys addiction and who wins in its pro-longing. At another level, given the mononity of day to day living for the vast inhabitants of this island - I can understand why losing control makes sense. One may also with to consider the deep reserve that is drilled into people (interestingly if one looks at Japan, another culture with reserve as another cultural stereotype they too are reknowned for their taste for alcohol).
posted by numberstation at 2:56 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
It's basically impossible for a person from California (where in the 2000 Census, per capita income was $22,711) to go somewhere on vacation in the United States where incomes are six times lower that what they've got at home: one would have to go to Bolivia or Paraguay or something for that.
You just compared central london -- which you can walk across -- to the entire state of california, which is several times the size of england.
There are plenty of places in california the size of central london that have a per-capita income of $100,000, or $200,000, or even $1,000,000
posted by Tlogmer at 3:00 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
You just compared central london -- which you can walk across -- to the entire state of california, which is several times the size of england.
There are plenty of places in california the size of central london that have a per-capita income of $100,000, or $200,000, or even $1,000,000
posted by Tlogmer at 3:00 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
RufusW: "But the dictatorship would have continued after his death if there was no internal pressure to reform (someone else would have been like, "geee, this is a good job!"). Sorry, no citation, got taught it a couple of years ago."
Despite the truism that change wouldn't have occurred if there wasn't a desire for it, this is pretty much wrong - you've been mistaught, I'm afraid. This isn't the place to go into the events of 1975-1982, but the short answer is that Franco picked the wrong man to be his successor - the man he felt would be a falangist-leaning monarch ruling in his image actually turned out to be a wetback Republican - something Juan Carlos hid from Franco up to the point the dictator died. It is, of course, much more complex than that though - Giles Tremlett's excellent book Ghosts of Spain covers it very well, and it a highly recommended text for anyone who wants to understand modern Spain a little better. (Along with its coverage of Francoism, it has a great chapter about Benidorm and the explosion of tourism under Franco which pretty neatly lays rest to you theory by showing just how much the Francoist regime embraced the nascent tourist industry and did everything they could to see it grow...
posted by benzo8 at 3:01 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Despite the truism that change wouldn't have occurred if there wasn't a desire for it, this is pretty much wrong - you've been mistaught, I'm afraid. This isn't the place to go into the events of 1975-1982, but the short answer is that Franco picked the wrong man to be his successor - the man he felt would be a falangist-leaning monarch ruling in his image actually turned out to be a wetback Republican - something Juan Carlos hid from Franco up to the point the dictator died. It is, of course, much more complex than that though - Giles Tremlett's excellent book Ghosts of Spain covers it very well, and it a highly recommended text for anyone who wants to understand modern Spain a little better. (Along with its coverage of Francoism, it has a great chapter about Benidorm and the explosion of tourism under Franco which pretty neatly lays rest to you theory by showing just how much the Francoist regime embraced the nascent tourist industry and did everything they could to see it grow...
posted by benzo8 at 3:01 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Anecdotally, as a new resident of London and thus seeing it from outside, I was astounded by how much people drink here.
Were you by any chance talking with former Conservative party leader William Hague, or for that matter former Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy?
posted by Mike1024 at 3:02 PM on August 24, 2008
Were you by any chance talking with former Conservative party leader William Hague, or for that matter former Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy?
posted by Mike1024 at 3:02 PM on August 24, 2008
"helped".... I'm pretty sure you can list it as a cause.
posted by RufusW at 3:13 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by RufusW at 3:13 PM on August 24, 2008
Further reflection: all of the stories I've read in this thread are bang on correct, and it's somewhat relieving to know I am not the only one that sees this. But then I am mortified that this is my country, this is what we are known for. Of all the great things British people have done and can do... excessive amounts of alcohol is washing it all away. I am not sure how non-Brits that haven't experienced it first hand could understand how truly horrendous it is.
Stickycarpet > "The Brits make a salary less than half their US counterparts, but are often treated to business trips, usually billed to clients, where excessive drinking and plain-brown-wrapper expenses at strip clubs and similar venues constitute at least a 25% bonus incentive above their base salaries. They grab onto these opportunities with desperate enthusiasm."
In every job I have worked, the first choice for a reward or incentive is alcohol. The first choice for a social experience is to drink. When there was a work meal organised, the emphasis was on the budget for alcohol. If you do not drink in this country, you are in the minority.
It's not a long shot to say that in the future there will be tens of thousands of people (if that few) suffering from permanent liver damage and other excessive alcohol related illnesses. With the NHS struggling to stay afloat, with practically no one taking careers in the health field and the constant xenophobic attitudes towards foreign-born workers... it's like the whole fucking country is suffering from brain rot. What the fuck is wrong with all of you? Gaaaaah.
I wish I could answer that question with a quick answer, but there isn't one. It's thoroughly frustrating. I want better than this.
posted by saturnine at 3:15 PM on August 24, 2008
Stickycarpet > "The Brits make a salary less than half their US counterparts, but are often treated to business trips, usually billed to clients, where excessive drinking and plain-brown-wrapper expenses at strip clubs and similar venues constitute at least a 25% bonus incentive above their base salaries. They grab onto these opportunities with desperate enthusiasm."
In every job I have worked, the first choice for a reward or incentive is alcohol. The first choice for a social experience is to drink. When there was a work meal organised, the emphasis was on the budget for alcohol. If you do not drink in this country, you are in the minority.
It's not a long shot to say that in the future there will be tens of thousands of people (if that few) suffering from permanent liver damage and other excessive alcohol related illnesses. With the NHS struggling to stay afloat, with practically no one taking careers in the health field and the constant xenophobic attitudes towards foreign-born workers... it's like the whole fucking country is suffering from brain rot. What the fuck is wrong with all of you? Gaaaaah.
I wish I could answer that question with a quick answer, but there isn't one. It's thoroughly frustrating. I want better than this.
posted by saturnine at 3:15 PM on August 24, 2008
Heh. Pop over to the US some time and see what happens when you replace alcohol with Hi Fructose corn syrup.
posted by Artw at 3:21 PM on August 24, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:21 PM on August 24, 2008 [4 favorites]
Every single person I have ever seen swimming in the canals in Amsterdam has been British. Just saying.
posted by chillmost at 3:26 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by chillmost at 3:26 PM on August 24, 2008
Heh. Someone dutch once told me (probably not too reliably) that the top inch of canal water in Amsterdamn is almost entirely urine.
posted by Artw at 3:32 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by Artw at 3:32 PM on August 24, 2008
The English are horrible. Film at always.
posted by kittyprecious at 3:38 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by kittyprecious at 3:38 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
Stay classy kittyprecious.
posted by slimepuppy at 3:47 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by slimepuppy at 3:47 PM on August 24, 2008
Thank you very much. I'm sure you're lovely too.
posted by Grangousier at 3:47 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by Grangousier at 3:47 PM on August 24, 2008
I've met some fabulous people here and there are aspects to life that I find appealing -- for one, I love a proper English pub as much as the next guy. But the proper English pubs are nice because they're quiet and surprisingly civilized. And they're nice because that *isn't* where the yobs go.
I was working in the Midlands, and I noticed that as a generational shift, too. If I went and drank in many of the old, fantastic pubs with interesting, locally brewed beers and ciders, the drinkers tended to be middle aged or older and be enjoying a civilised atmosphere. The guys my age mostly went to chain pubs and loaded up on crap lager (Fosters, for go's sake! It's a joke the Australians play on the rest of the world - drink the beer no-one in Aussie will!) at twice the price until you fall over.
posted by rodgerd at 3:51 PM on August 24, 2008
I was working in the Midlands, and I noticed that as a generational shift, too. If I went and drank in many of the old, fantastic pubs with interesting, locally brewed beers and ciders, the drinkers tended to be middle aged or older and be enjoying a civilised atmosphere. The guys my age mostly went to chain pubs and loaded up on crap lager (Fosters, for go's sake! It's a joke the Australians play on the rest of the world - drink the beer no-one in Aussie will!) at twice the price until you fall over.
posted by rodgerd at 3:51 PM on August 24, 2008
"I'd love to put the Hooligans up against the Bloods in L.A., that'd be a ... short gang battle."
posted by bwg at 3:54 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by bwg at 3:54 PM on August 24, 2008
The funniest things in this thread are the attempts to make Margaret Thatcher the causal factor behind the religion of alcohol practiced by young people, few of whom were born when she took office. One needs to read Theodore Dalrymple:
"These are people not so much enjoying themselves, as straining to persuade themselves and each other that they are enjoying themselves. The void – and awareness that life is a brief spell of consciousness with a complete lack of purpose, between two eternal oblivions – does not seem very far away."
posted by Faze at 3:58 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
"These are people not so much enjoying themselves, as straining to persuade themselves and each other that they are enjoying themselves. The void – and awareness that life is a brief spell of consciousness with a complete lack of purpose, between two eternal oblivions – does not seem very far away."
posted by Faze at 3:58 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
If I went and drank in many of the old, fantastic pubs with interesting, locally brewed beers and ciders, the drinkers tended to be middle aged or older and be enjoying a civilised atmosphere. The guys my age mostly went to chain pubs and loaded up on crap lager (Fosters, for go's sake! It's a joke the Australians play on the rest of the world - drink the beer no-one in Aussie will!) at twice the price until you fall over.
And they were both getting drunk.
posted by jonmc at 4:01 PM on August 24, 2008
And they were both getting drunk.
posted by jonmc at 4:01 PM on August 24, 2008
few of whom were born when she took office.
True, but they were raised in the country born of the philosophy that "there is no such thing as society."
(Not that I actually blame Thatcher for any problems the English have with drink.)
And they were both getting drunk.
Actually, they weren't. Which is why one set were enjoyable company, and the other were a pack of twats.
posted by rodgerd at 4:33 PM on August 24, 2008
True, but they were raised in the country born of the philosophy that "there is no such thing as society."
(Not that I actually blame Thatcher for any problems the English have with drink.)
And they were both getting drunk.
Actually, they weren't. Which is why one set were enjoyable company, and the other were a pack of twats.
posted by rodgerd at 4:33 PM on August 24, 2008
So you mean to say the British tourist's reputation for being drunk and disorderly has eclipsed that of the Aussie? I find that so hard to imagine...
posted by miss lynnster at 5:00 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by miss lynnster at 5:00 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Actually, they weren't.
No, the old guys were getting stinko, too. they were just doing it quietly. I've seen and done both the quiet and loud drunk. Young guys get loud when they drink cause they're still all full of hormones and stuff.
posted by jonmc at 5:11 PM on August 24, 2008
No, the old guys were getting stinko, too. they were just doing it quietly. I've seen and done both the quiet and loud drunk. Young guys get loud when they drink cause they're still all full of hormones and stuff.
posted by jonmc at 5:11 PM on August 24, 2008
If I went and drank in many of the old, fantastic pubs with interesting, locally brewed beers and ciders, the drinkers tended to be middle aged or older and be enjoying a civilised atmosphere. The guys my age mostly went to chain pubs and loaded up on crap lager (Fosters, for go's sake! It's a joke the Australians play on the rest of the world - drink the beer no-one in Aussie will!) at twice the price until you fall over.
I've experienced this phenomenon here in New Zealand as well, who from what I can tell take their drinking cues from the British. The older pubs tend to be full of middle-aged people quietly enjoying a pint, and the kids are all drinking export gold and tui at the local shit-hole, usually to the point of pissing all over the place, puking, and passing out on the floor, or very rarely getting killed.
For what it's worth the brits who travel here in NZ tend to be lovely, but then NZ isn't really geared towards a quick weekend away to go on a bender.
posted by supercrayon at 5:12 PM on August 24, 2008
I've experienced this phenomenon here in New Zealand as well, who from what I can tell take their drinking cues from the British. The older pubs tend to be full of middle-aged people quietly enjoying a pint, and the kids are all drinking export gold and tui at the local shit-hole, usually to the point of pissing all over the place, puking, and passing out on the floor, or very rarely getting killed.
For what it's worth the brits who travel here in NZ tend to be lovely, but then NZ isn't really geared towards a quick weekend away to go on a bender.
posted by supercrayon at 5:12 PM on August 24, 2008
jonmc writes: Wait a minute, people on vacation like to get drunk and rowdy? Stop the presses!
elpapacito writes: Tell this to the guy that gets barfed upon, as opposed to being invited to join the party.
Hey, to some people, getting barfed on IS being invited to join the party!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:13 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
elpapacito writes: Tell this to the guy that gets barfed upon, as opposed to being invited to join the party.
Hey, to some people, getting barfed on IS being invited to join the party!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:13 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
So Margaret Thatcher was a drunken hooligan?
I'm confused...
posted by mannequito at 6:36 PM on August 24, 2008
I'm confused...
posted by mannequito at 6:36 PM on August 24, 2008
Aww. Abiezer, that quiver in your voice betrays otherwise.
posted by jouke at 7:32 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by jouke at 7:32 PM on August 24, 2008
Listen again, young jouke. That's no quiver, must be some Sarf London whiney thing.
posted by Abiezer at 7:46 PM on August 24, 2008
posted by Abiezer at 7:46 PM on August 24, 2008
Stay classy
I'm tempted to riff on Britain's class-focus but the words ain't comin'. Also I appear to be sloshed. Oh, irony!
posted by kittyprecious at 8:20 PM on August 24, 2008
I'm tempted to riff on Britain's class-focus but the words ain't comin'. Also I appear to be sloshed. Oh, irony!
posted by kittyprecious at 8:20 PM on August 24, 2008
I was a little surprised to read about people's impressions of London above, because compared to Nottingham on a Saturday night, London always seems so civilized and tame to me.
So where's the Sheriff?
posted by Crabby Appleton at 8:36 PM on August 24, 2008
So where's the Sheriff?
posted by Crabby Appleton at 8:36 PM on August 24, 2008
"Why Do Men Stupify Themselves?"
Cuz they got a Stupifyin' Jones, maybe?
posted by Herodios at 8:37 PM on August 24, 2008
So you mean to say the British tourist's reputation for being drunk and disorderly has eclipsed that of the Aussie? I find that so hard to imagine...
Yet another sport the Brits are besting us at.
posted by nudar at 8:40 PM on August 24, 2008
Yet another sport the Brits are besting us at.
posted by nudar at 8:40 PM on August 24, 2008
I question the merit of this FPP
Ah, but you got your two cents worth in before you questioned it, didn't you?
posted by longsleeves at 9:30 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Ah, but you got your two cents worth in before you questioned it, didn't you?
posted by longsleeves at 9:30 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
[I would encourage Ornate Insect not to moderate their own thread]
Funny. Ironic too. Lucky we/they have you to moderate it for us/them. Or him. Or her. Or it.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:16 AM on August 25, 2008
Funny. Ironic too. Lucky we/they have you to moderate it for us/them. Or him. Or her. Or it.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:16 AM on August 25, 2008
I'm sure the Spaniards would be just happy to give up the revenue of 15 million British tourists a year in exchange for a little peace and quiet. Brits ought to boycott one tourist destination per year for five years to drive the point home.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:18 AM on August 25, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:18 AM on August 25, 2008
No, the old guys were getting stinko, too. they were just doing it quietly.
Wow, I didn't realise you were in the Black Country at the turn of the century.
posted by rodgerd at 2:38 AM on August 25, 2008
Wow, I didn't realise you were in the Black Country at the turn of the century.
posted by rodgerd at 2:38 AM on August 25, 2008
How can anyone in California get drunk with an average income of $22k = £11k a year? It isn' as if alcohol is cheaper in the US
posted by A189Nut at 4:18 AM on August 25, 2008
posted by A189Nut at 4:18 AM on August 25, 2008
The $22K figure came from a simple Googled list of "per capita income per year" - I assume it was averaged out for the whole population, not just workers. Median household income per state probably is a better measure of family wealth; California's at $54,385.
Also: massive corn subsidies.
posted by mdonley at 4:25 AM on August 25, 2008
Also: massive corn subsidies.
posted by mdonley at 4:25 AM on August 25, 2008
I think the general rule is: richer parts of Northern European countries tend to drink alcohol to reasonable levels. Poorer parts of Northern European countries don't. Certainly I'd say that was true for England, Scotland and Poland, where I have the most experience.
posted by athenian at 5:25 AM on August 25, 2008
posted by athenian at 5:25 AM on August 25, 2008
bwg: "I'd love to put the Hooligans up against the Bloods in L.A., that'd be a ... short gang battle."
Ironically, the last threatening drunk chav I encountered threatened me by way of interpretive dance. I guess it's a step up from throwing bricks through my window.
(Yes, seriously. He danced threateningly at me for daring to make eye contact for quarter of a second while waiting at a stop light)
posted by Freaky at 5:41 AM on August 25, 2008
Ironically, the last threatening drunk chav I encountered threatened me by way of interpretive dance. I guess it's a step up from throwing bricks through my window.
(Yes, seriously. He danced threateningly at me for daring to make eye contact for quarter of a second while waiting at a stop light)
posted by Freaky at 5:41 AM on August 25, 2008
...the last threatening drunk chav I encountered threatened me by way of interpretive dance.
There'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road,
And the white man dancing...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:50 AM on August 25, 2008 [1 favorite]
There'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road,
And the white man dancing...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:50 AM on August 25, 2008 [1 favorite]
Ah, the English, and their charming hooliganism. While it's certainly true that Northern Europeans like their daytime drunkenness, IMO this is a particularly British phenomenon: there is a soccer game on, or I don't have to go to work today, so it's time to get falling-down drunk and attack strangers. I have been drunk around people from many different cultures and the only people that are reliably dangerous are US Marines, male Slavs, and non-ruling-class English. After raising this issue with the latter, I've only ever encountered three responses, usually all in the same conversation, and in this order:
1. The Germans / Dutch / Scandinavians / Eastern Europeans / Turks are just as bad / worse.
2. We poor English are just trying to have some wholesome fun and are being singled out by the Fascistic French / Spanish / Greek / Italian cops.
3. Fuck you you fucking cunt, say another word and I'll punch your fucking face in.
posted by alexwoods at 7:48 AM on August 25, 2008 [8 favorites]
1. The Germans / Dutch / Scandinavians / Eastern Europeans / Turks are just as bad / worse.
2. We poor English are just trying to have some wholesome fun and are being singled out by the Fascistic French / Spanish / Greek / Italian cops.
3. Fuck you you fucking cunt, say another word and I'll punch your fucking face in.
posted by alexwoods at 7:48 AM on August 25, 2008 [8 favorites]
I'll take option 3 for $400 and/or 200 hours of community service, alex. :p
posted by Abiezer at 7:57 AM on August 25, 2008
posted by Abiezer at 7:57 AM on August 25, 2008
I have always assumed the English drink because for them math is plural. Who wants more math?
posted by srboisvert at 8:58 AM on August 25, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 8:58 AM on August 25, 2008 [4 favorites]
Also: massive corn subsidies.
What, directly, do corn subsidies have to do with California's economy? If anything, it's the massive rice fields in one of the nation's most arid regions that's relevant.
But hey, both can be fermented into spirits, so here we are again...
posted by kittyprecious at 9:05 AM on August 25, 2008
What, directly, do corn subsidies have to do with California's economy? If anything, it's the massive rice fields in one of the nation's most arid regions that's relevant.
But hey, both can be fermented into spirits, so here we are again...
posted by kittyprecious at 9:05 AM on August 25, 2008
I think Brits have just gotten used to it, in the sense that a lobster gets used to a warming pot of water.
This. When I was in San Francisco over the summer I was astounded by how clean and peaceful the streets were in the early hours of the morning, and how safe it felt. So I got hammered, puked on a hobo and shouted at some girls to get them to flash their yayas.
My first night back home in Glasgow I couldn't get to sleep for drunks hollering outside, in my supposedly "leafy" street. So I shot them, and voted for the nearest right-wing Christian.
posted by bonaldi at 10:32 AM on August 25, 2008 [1 favorite]
This. When I was in San Francisco over the summer I was astounded by how clean and peaceful the streets were in the early hours of the morning, and how safe it felt. So I got hammered, puked on a hobo and shouted at some girls to get them to flash their yayas.
My first night back home in Glasgow I couldn't get to sleep for drunks hollering outside, in my supposedly "leafy" street. So I shot them, and voted for the nearest right-wing Christian.
posted by bonaldi at 10:32 AM on August 25, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's been about 20 years since I lived in London, but I don't remember the drinking scene being anything like how it is being portrayed currently. I wonder if it's really changed that dramatically, or if I just never noticed it.
I mean, sure Camden on a weekend was not significantly more sober or better smelling that Bourbon Street on a weekend, but during the week, I never noticed a proclivity towards the boozing during the day, nor do I remember many associates loading up before the caught the train home. In fact, I remember the concierge at the hotel where I lived for a few months being shocked, shocked, that I'd come in with a bottle of something or other and asked them to send a setup for four to my room.
If I wasn't just oblivious to the issue, then this apparent drastic uptick in a such a short time is certainly worthy of scrutiny, if only to ferret out what the underlying causes are.
posted by dejah420 at 11:31 AM on August 25, 2008
I mean, sure Camden on a weekend was not significantly more sober or better smelling that Bourbon Street on a weekend, but during the week, I never noticed a proclivity towards the boozing during the day, nor do I remember many associates loading up before the caught the train home. In fact, I remember the concierge at the hotel where I lived for a few months being shocked, shocked, that I'd come in with a bottle of something or other and asked them to send a setup for four to my room.
If I wasn't just oblivious to the issue, then this apparent drastic uptick in a such a short time is certainly worthy of scrutiny, if only to ferret out what the underlying causes are.
posted by dejah420 at 11:31 AM on August 25, 2008
To Abiezer 大哥 and any other Brits that read my comment: I didn't mean you mate, I meant everyone else, who is not you. Don't feel that you need to curb me if we ever meet each other. Next round on me. Cheers.
[excuses self, climbs out window in gents, flees]
posted by alexwoods at 1:59 PM on August 25, 2008
[excuses self, climbs out window in gents, flees]
posted by alexwoods at 1:59 PM on August 25, 2008
[excuses self, climbs out window in gents, flees]
Yeah, well, you got away for now, but next time you walk into the pub, you're getting glassed.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:48 PM on August 25, 2008
Yeah, well, you got away for now, but next time you walk into the pub, you're getting glassed.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:48 PM on August 25, 2008
There's an article in today's Le Monde about botellons - internet organised bring-a-bottle pissups for 18-24 year olds, and how they have spread to Switzerland from Spain. Article on fronsay.
posted by athenian at 4:53 PM on August 25, 2008
posted by athenian at 4:53 PM on August 25, 2008
The Germans / Dutch / Scandinavians / Eastern Europeans / Turks are just as bad / worse.
The Scandinavians definitely get shitfaced as much as the Brits, particularly in the "dark" half of the year, but no way are they anywhere near as violent. The Dutch--no way. Eastern Europeans--no way. And the Turks? They're about as boozy as the Mormons.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:52 PM on August 25, 2008
The Scandinavians definitely get shitfaced as much as the Brits, particularly in the "dark" half of the year, but no way are they anywhere near as violent. The Dutch--no way. Eastern Europeans--no way. And the Turks? They're about as boozy as the Mormons.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:52 PM on August 25, 2008
British tourists really are the worst in my experience. Hands down. Luckily I have enough British friends to know they're not all like that.
posted by sero_venientibus_ossa at 7:37 PM on August 25, 2008
posted by sero_venientibus_ossa at 7:37 PM on August 25, 2008
I'm British. I drink. I've even been one of those too drunk, slightly loud British tourists.
But that phase, such as it was, ended at 21. And I've never been on one of those package holidays where whole roving packs of British tourists that colonise otherwise pleasant towns and gloss them with vomit and piss.
It's largely an age and a class thing. There's no point denying that from one's late teens to early twenties drink - or rather, getting drunk - plays a central role in British culture. While there are class differences to how and where it goes on - from the posh Cornish seaside towns overrun by school age upper middle classes to the meat markets of pretty much every provincial nightclub, it is there.
But many Brits outgrow it - they earn enough to stop going on cheap sun, sea and shag resorts, they find a partner and they work out that getting shitfaced on a Friday and Saturday night isn't great preparation for another week of work.
And perhaps I'm being unfair, but the class divide does make a difference: young middle class, better educated kids can still make noise, puke and piss with the best of them but they rarely see a fight by the kebab shop/taxi rank as an integral part of the evening's entertainment.
By contrast, if you spend time in towns where the working and lower middle classes go out in force, you witness mindless drunkeness and casual violence on an epic scale - and not only among teenagers and young adults. As a Brit I'm still mildly astonished when I see grown men and women blind drunk, looking for targets for their hair trigger tempers.
While it's tempting to conclude that it's a newish generational thing, it's not really: the streets of Magaluf and similar places have long played host to tourists whose idea of a great holiday is a week drinking Australian beer and British food somewhere sunnier than the train wreck of a town they live in. Before package holidays plummeted in price, the action simply went on nearer home: Blackpool, Skegness etc.
Perhaps the main difference now is that whereas it was mainly men before, now Brits are equal opportunity drunken louts: the rise in both femaile drinking and female binge drinking is well charted. For a generation now, young women have been earning their own money and choosing their own lifestyles and one of the corollaries has been a sizeable group have chosen to emulate the worst kind of boorish male drinking.
posted by MuffinMan at 3:51 AM on August 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
But that phase, such as it was, ended at 21. And I've never been on one of those package holidays where whole roving packs of British tourists that colonise otherwise pleasant towns and gloss them with vomit and piss.
It's largely an age and a class thing. There's no point denying that from one's late teens to early twenties drink - or rather, getting drunk - plays a central role in British culture. While there are class differences to how and where it goes on - from the posh Cornish seaside towns overrun by school age upper middle classes to the meat markets of pretty much every provincial nightclub, it is there.
But many Brits outgrow it - they earn enough to stop going on cheap sun, sea and shag resorts, they find a partner and they work out that getting shitfaced on a Friday and Saturday night isn't great preparation for another week of work.
And perhaps I'm being unfair, but the class divide does make a difference: young middle class, better educated kids can still make noise, puke and piss with the best of them but they rarely see a fight by the kebab shop/taxi rank as an integral part of the evening's entertainment.
By contrast, if you spend time in towns where the working and lower middle classes go out in force, you witness mindless drunkeness and casual violence on an epic scale - and not only among teenagers and young adults. As a Brit I'm still mildly astonished when I see grown men and women blind drunk, looking for targets for their hair trigger tempers.
While it's tempting to conclude that it's a newish generational thing, it's not really: the streets of Magaluf and similar places have long played host to tourists whose idea of a great holiday is a week drinking Australian beer and British food somewhere sunnier than the train wreck of a town they live in. Before package holidays plummeted in price, the action simply went on nearer home: Blackpool, Skegness etc.
Perhaps the main difference now is that whereas it was mainly men before, now Brits are equal opportunity drunken louts: the rise in both femaile drinking and female binge drinking is well charted. For a generation now, young women have been earning their own money and choosing their own lifestyles and one of the corollaries has been a sizeable group have chosen to emulate the worst kind of boorish male drinking.
posted by MuffinMan at 3:51 AM on August 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
That's a really interesting comment, MuffinMan. Thanks for your observations.
A world away, here in Japan, and drinking styles are, well, a world away. I've actually never seen violent and loutish behavior here in Tokyo (I'm a 13 year resident), but there's plenty of totally wasted people out and about, especially on the weekends. I mean, people who can't even walk, who just crumple and fall out, right on the sidewalk. Some fairly pathetic characters to be seen: really shockingly incapacitated. But looking for fights? Nah. Never even a hint of a threat of that, in my experience. It's one of the things I like about Japan.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:27 AM on August 26, 2008
A world away, here in Japan, and drinking styles are, well, a world away. I've actually never seen violent and loutish behavior here in Tokyo (I'm a 13 year resident), but there's plenty of totally wasted people out and about, especially on the weekends. I mean, people who can't even walk, who just crumple and fall out, right on the sidewalk. Some fairly pathetic characters to be seen: really shockingly incapacitated. But looking for fights? Nah. Never even a hint of a threat of that, in my experience. It's one of the things I like about Japan.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:27 AM on August 26, 2008
And the Turks? They're about as boozy as the Mormons.
You're right. I was thinking more about football hooliganism when I wrote that.
posted by alexwoods at 7:36 AM on August 26, 2008
You're right. I was thinking more about football hooliganism when I wrote that.
posted by alexwoods at 7:36 AM on August 26, 2008
Surely the Italians should get a look in then, fo the fine work from the Ultras.
posted by Artw at 8:40 AM on August 26, 2008
posted by Artw at 8:40 AM on August 26, 2008
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
So, hell yes, they should be singled out, because I am still bitter. Pronounced "bit-TER."
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:38 AM on August 24, 2008 [9 favorites]