James Powderly's story of his Beijing detention
September 3, 2008 7:11 AM Subscribe
An American in Beijing's Detention Facilities (via kottke)
After hours without sleep and threats against their lives and the lives of their loved ones, Powderly and the other Americans began to crack.which can be compared/contrasted with recent police action in st. paul (and of course guantanamo), but also the larger image and reality in china.
“That’s when I started to realize that I’m really good at being a douche-baggy art star, but I’m really bad at this secret agent business,” he said.
Thanks a lot, Powderly. Like America doesn't already look stupid enough.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 7:39 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by solipsophistocracy at 7:39 AM on September 3, 2008
There have been a lot of interesting articles in Harper's recently about how the west engages with China. One idea put forward by many people was that as China became more free market, it would also become more democratic. Instead, it's the West that has capitulated. Foreign companies bend over backwards to appease China and its rules. Foreign governments learn that you can be fascist and still make lots of money.
posted by chunking express at 7:42 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by chunking express at 7:42 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
From the interview with Powderly: "There is no judicial process, they simply pick you up and put you in detention and you pretty much just have to do whatever the hell they want. It's really amazing what absolute power means."
Hmm... *enemy combatant* much?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:44 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
Hmm... *enemy combatant* much?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:44 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
“I plan to make the Chinese government regret not keeping my ass there the rest of my life,” [Powderly] said.
I already regret it.
posted by rusty at 8:13 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
I already regret it.
posted by rusty at 8:13 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
“I plan to make the Chinese government regret not keeping my ass there the rest of my life,” he said.
Ooooooooh. Look out! Blind them with your laser!
posted by Darned account name at 8:14 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Ooooooooh. Look out! Blind them with your laser!
posted by Darned account name at 8:14 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't know anything about this artist but, from the link above, I wonder about people who say things like, "as an American, can I..."
Americans don't have any more rights in other countries than anyone else. Why would anyone think that they did?
posted by etaoin at 8:25 AM on September 3, 2008
Americans don't have any more rights in other countries than anyone else. Why would anyone think that they did?
posted by etaoin at 8:25 AM on September 3, 2008
This is a great example of someone sounding so irritating, so smug, and so egocentric that, despite being completely on the right side of the issue, he actually makes the other side, which is demonstratively wrong and basically evil, sound better by comparison.
I call it "Cory Doctorow Syndrome"
posted by Damn That Television at 8:43 AM on September 3, 2008 [35 favorites]
I call it "Cory Doctorow Syndrome"
posted by Damn That Television at 8:43 AM on September 3, 2008 [35 favorites]
Eh, I don't think he's unaware that he was a bit of a pollyanna and a schmuck in what he did, and how he thought it would go over. He seems pretty up front about having been kind of a jackass. Story isn't really about him personally, anyway.
posted by stenseng at 8:48 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by stenseng at 8:48 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Here is an interview on NPR with a film maker who was part of that group. Basically, they sang like canaries, and even though he says they only gave up code names and first names of Chinese nationals, you'd have to assume that the Chinese intelligence agencies might have been able to track people down with the information given.
It's amazing how naive these guys were.
posted by Forktine at 8:55 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's amazing how naive these guys were.
posted by Forktine at 8:55 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Foreign governments learn that you can be fascist and still make lots of money.
Foreign governments learn that you can be fascist and make even more money.
posted by ElvisJesus at 8:56 AM on September 3, 2008
Foreign governments learn that you can be fascist and make even more money.
posted by ElvisJesus at 8:56 AM on September 3, 2008
Torture strips you of something you can’t get back.
Now take this valuable lesson you've learned and use your art to spread this message to Americans who still haven't figured it out.
posted by quin at 8:59 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
Now take this valuable lesson you've learned and use your art to spread this message to Americans who still haven't figured it out.
posted by quin at 8:59 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
I think if I were a Chinese national working for change in the government, I'd stay the hell away from goateed American artists who are trying to get thrown into prison. How exactly is he helping anyone with this "I'm white, so I will fight your battles for you" attitude?
posted by reformedjerk at 9:01 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by reformedjerk at 9:01 AM on September 3, 2008
> Cory Doctorow Syndrome
Interestingly, Cory is Canadian. Then again, so is Conrad Black.
posted by ardgedee at 9:01 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Interestingly, Cory is Canadian. Then again, so is Conrad Black.
posted by ardgedee at 9:01 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Did dude really call himself an "art star?"
posted by The Straightener at 9:24 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by The Straightener at 9:24 AM on September 3, 2008
The Chinese would of done us all a favor by keeping him there for as long as he claims they should have.
posted by lildice at 9:43 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by lildice at 9:43 AM on September 3, 2008
This makes torture like something mildly annoying that happens to dumb, self-complacent rich westerners.
It's more serious than that.
posted by signal at 9:54 AM on September 3, 2008
It's more serious than that.
posted by signal at 9:54 AM on September 3, 2008
“When I first got put into a detention cell I thought I was going to have to fight someone like a mad man or get owned — then this guy gives me a blanket and a candy bar, and I’m thinking I’m already being made his bitch,” he said. “But it turns out that none of these people had committed crimes — they were all there for visa issues and paperwork problems, and they were doing everything they could to help each other survive.”
His first indicator that this would end poorly should have been the fact that everything he knows, he learned from movies and TV.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 9:57 AM on September 3, 2008 [9 favorites]
His first indicator that this would end poorly should have been the fact that everything he knows, he learned from movies and TV.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 9:57 AM on September 3, 2008 [9 favorites]
This is news? Fascism has always been good for business.
posted by anthill at 10:01 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by anthill at 10:01 AM on September 3, 2008
Basically, they sang like canaries, and even though he says they only gave up code names and first names of Chinese nationals, you'd have to assume that the Chinese intelligence agencies might have been able to track people down with the information given.
Yeah, I found that interview pretty shocking. These guys really endangered the lives of their Chinese collaborators for what appears to be a poorly thought-out stunt. Tremendously irresponsible.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:08 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I found that interview pretty shocking. These guys really endangered the lives of their Chinese collaborators for what appears to be a poorly thought-out stunt. Tremendously irresponsible.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:08 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
What the hell was this guy thinking? What did he think would happen?
Man, that girl was drinking and dressed like a slut. She was totally asking to get raped.
posted by christonabike at 10:16 AM on September 3, 2008
Man, that girl was drinking and dressed like a slut. She was totally asking to get raped.
posted by christonabike at 10:16 AM on September 3, 2008
I can't imagine why any Chinese would collaborate on a risky protest venture with an artist from Williamsburg. It's like a forgone conclusion that in the end he's going wind up running his mouth about himself on Gawker and you're going to wind up connected to a car battery in some prison basement.
posted by The Straightener at 10:19 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by The Straightener at 10:19 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
I had no idea they had the authority to sentence a citizen from another country, I mean, you didn't even have a trial I assume. No, no I didn't have a trial and I wasn't charged with a crime. There is no judicial process, they simply pick you up and put you in detention and you pretty much just have to do whatever the hell they want. It's really amazing what absolute power means. They feel like they have absolute power in the U.S., and it's true if you're an Arab being suspected of terrorism, this country has absolute power and you have no rights. But for us white folks it's a really absurd concept that you can be detained indefinitely without ever being charged with a crime.While the intentions might have been good, I am dumbfounded by the ignorance of both interviewer & subject. Apart from the whole Arab being suspected of terrorism daftness, I've got my brand spanking new US Passport here: page 6, Item #6 is:
AVOID VIOLATING FOREIGN LAWS. Remember, while in a foreign country, you are subject to its laws...And there was similar, if not identical, entry in my old passport.
- Clue by4 #1: A US passport does not mean you are above the law in other countries, and vice versa.
- Clue by4 #2: The laws granting absolute power and no rights make no provision for "Doesn't apply to White Folks."
On preview: I know of no country where ignorance of the law provides a loophole out of said law & the consequences. Comparing ignorance as defense tactic to rape is comparing apples to oranges. And fucking offensive to boot.
posted by romakimmy at 10:22 AM on September 3, 2008
I wonder if people will read this and connect it to the fact that the United States treats people even worse than this? That guy's experience is utterly lightweight compared to what prisoners go through in Guantanamo. They've had that shit happen to them for years, and he's upset (and rightly so) about 26 hours.
There is no difference whatsoever between 'they hate our freedoms' and 'why do you want to murder China?'.
posted by Malor at 10:28 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
There is no difference whatsoever between 'they hate our freedoms' and 'why do you want to murder China?'.
posted by Malor at 10:28 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
I can't imagine why any Chinese would collaborate on a risky protest venture with an artist from Williamsburg. It's like a forgone conclusion that in the end he's going wind up running his mouth about himself on Gawker and you're going to wind up connected to a car battery in some prison basement.
A better idea would be a cultural exchange. Send all the Williamsburg artistes to China (preferably on a slow boat) and let all the Chinese artists move to Brooklyn.
On second thought, the Chinese government would realize that we got the better end of the deal and they'd never go for it.
posted by jonmc at 10:29 AM on September 3, 2008
A better idea would be a cultural exchange. Send all the Williamsburg artistes to China (preferably on a slow boat) and let all the Chinese artists move to Brooklyn.
On second thought, the Chinese government would realize that we got the better end of the deal and they'd never go for it.
posted by jonmc at 10:29 AM on September 3, 2008
Then again, so is Conrad Black.
Not since he renounced his citizenship to become Lord Black of Crossharbour.
posted by GuyZero at 10:36 AM on September 3, 2008
Not since he renounced his citizenship to become Lord Black of Crossharbour.
posted by GuyZero at 10:36 AM on September 3, 2008
I am having a hard time mustering outrage on this artist's behalf. Probably, as others have suggested, I am distracted by his air of smug, entitled cluelessness.
posted by everichon at 10:51 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by everichon at 10:51 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
What the hell was this guy thinking? What did he think would happen?
Man, that girl was drinking and dressed like a slut. She was totally asking to get raped.
You didn't seriously think that was a good analogy, did you? I think you should think about it.
I can't imagine what Chinese citizen in their right mind would collaborate with dilettantes like Powderly. Talk about dangerous liaisons.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:16 AM on September 3, 2008
Man, that girl was drinking and dressed like a slut. She was totally asking to get raped.
You didn't seriously think that was a good analogy, did you? I think you should think about it.
I can't imagine what Chinese citizen in their right mind would collaborate with dilettantes like Powderly. Talk about dangerous liaisons.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:16 AM on September 3, 2008
Did dude really call himself an "art star?"
Hey, but the "douche-baggy" part shows he's modest too!
posted by rottytooth at 11:21 AM on September 3, 2008
Hey, but the "douche-baggy" part shows he's modest too!
posted by rottytooth at 11:21 AM on September 3, 2008
Malor: I wonder if people will read this and connect it to the fact that the United States treats people even worse than this?
I did, but the problem was it made me think "What if I was wrong, and the people we've got in Gitmo are all as douchey as this guy? Maybe it's not so bad..."
So that probably isn't what we want.
posted by rusty at 11:27 AM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]
I did, but the problem was it made me think "What if I was wrong, and the people we've got in Gitmo are all as douchey as this guy? Maybe it's not so bad..."
So that probably isn't what we want.
posted by rusty at 11:27 AM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't wish torture on anyone, or imprisonment for doing laser art. I would, however, wish obscurity on this person. What a chowderhead.
posted by everichon at 11:28 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by everichon at 11:28 AM on September 3, 2008
Did dude really call himself an "art star?"
Hey, but the "douche-baggy" part shows he's modest too!
And 50% accurate!
posted by doctor_negative at 11:33 AM on September 3, 2008
Hey, but the "douche-baggy" part shows he's modest too!
And 50% accurate!
posted by doctor_negative at 11:33 AM on September 3, 2008
Here's a similar account from some other protesters: The Chinese government was ruthlessly effective in quashing dissent during the Summer Olympics, but few noticed until a group of scruffy American activists were arrested, jailed, and deported for flying the Tibetan flag outside the Bird’s Nest stadium. In an exclusive interview, John Watterberg and Jeremy Wells describe their ordeal at the hands of a repressive regime.
posted by homunculus at 11:41 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by homunculus at 11:41 AM on September 3, 2008
fuckin n00b; what did the guy think was going to happen standing in front of that tank?
posted by Challahtronix at 11:47 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by Challahtronix at 11:47 AM on September 3, 2008
No Voice Is Too Small for a China Still Nervous About Dissent
posted by homunculus at 11:47 AM on September 3, 2008
posted by homunculus at 11:47 AM on September 3, 2008
You didn't seriously think that was a good analogy, did you?
Let's see, the two people being analogized:
Engaged in very risky behavior, which they should have known had a good chance of getting them hurt.
Still had every moral right to engage in that behavior.
And in doing so challenged a culture's proscriptions against what good people can say, look, or act like in public.
Were then subjected to pain by others looking to abuse power.
Are finally being subjected to ridicule by people who unjustly want to blame the victim.
And are seeing a lack of sympathy by people who (whether justly or not) don't respect the victim.
There's obviously some differences too (which is why we call it an analogy, not an equivalence), but overall it looks like a fantastic analogy to me. I'd like to have responded to your specific criticisms of it, but you didn't make any.
posted by roystgnr at 12:48 PM on September 3, 2008
Let's see, the two people being analogized:
Engaged in very risky behavior, which they should have known had a good chance of getting them hurt.
Still had every moral right to engage in that behavior.
And in doing so challenged a culture's proscriptions against what good people can say, look, or act like in public.
Were then subjected to pain by others looking to abuse power.
Are finally being subjected to ridicule by people who unjustly want to blame the victim.
And are seeing a lack of sympathy by people who (whether justly or not) don't respect the victim.
There's obviously some differences too (which is why we call it an analogy, not an equivalence), but overall it looks like a fantastic analogy to me. I'd like to have responded to your specific criticisms of it, but you didn't make any.
posted by roystgnr at 12:48 PM on September 3, 2008
There is no difference whatsoever between 'they hate our freedoms' and 'why do you want to murder China?'.
Seriously?
I'm no fan of Guantanamo, not by any stretch. I recognize that protests here are increasingly met with militarized response and police handling that breaks the spirit of the laws most of us *think* we have.
But I *am* proud that in our country, the phrase "Why do you hate America?" is still largely the domain of ignorant and sophomoric pundits, rather than an official legal standard against which violatiors can be sent to jail indefinitely. That it's still OK to say this, that the fascists haven't yet coopted enough of the population by propaganda or fear that mere dissent would be accepted as worthy of jailtime (though they have, to be fair, gotten waaay to many people to believe it's worthy of scorn or mockery).
No illusions. Lots of things about the US suck, and it's not a bad idea to look in the mirror frequently for fascist blemishes so we don't someday find it's our entire figure. But to say there's no difference between US and Chinese responses to political dissent is ludicrous.
As for the critics of Powderly -- I think it's a good point that he quite possibly endangered some good folks by association, but hey, presumably they were less naive than he was, they'd have to know a bit about the conditions in their country, and they still made the decision of association, even if he was naive. As for his naiveté and artsy self-importance? Yeah, he's got it, just like a lot of people do, and oh yeah, it's really astute to note that so do lots of people who move to New York to pursue whatever particular dream they're chasing.
As it turns out, he put some of his zeal into a protest action which now enables him to illustrate firsthand what response to dissent is like in China, if only for a semi-privileged westerner who might get backed up by the consulate of a powerful country. Meanwhile, on Metafilter, lots of other smug semi-privileged Westerners lean back and treat his effort like it was just a hipster fashion choice. I mean, ha-ha! What a douche! That guy, trying to visit the problems of dissent in China! Great, haters, I assume you're at least writing letters for Amnesty International, right? I mean, there's got to be some legitimate way you can genuinely come by your own feelings of superiority to Powderly, or you wouldn't be posting here, right?
Believe me, I'm aware there are a lot of people are involved in politics or development efforts because it gives them a feeling of self-importance, and I think that's something anybody involved would do well to consider, along with issues of their own preparation. But I also think that it's worth giving a bit of a pass for good intentions, and the fact is, the acts of Powderly and co give me access to a firsthand perspective I wouldn't otherwise have.
But hey, if you'd rather have your complacent disdain for young artsy activists, feel free to encourage me off the lawn.
posted by namespan at 1:07 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
Seriously?
I'm no fan of Guantanamo, not by any stretch. I recognize that protests here are increasingly met with militarized response and police handling that breaks the spirit of the laws most of us *think* we have.
But I *am* proud that in our country, the phrase "Why do you hate America?" is still largely the domain of ignorant and sophomoric pundits, rather than an official legal standard against which violatiors can be sent to jail indefinitely. That it's still OK to say this, that the fascists haven't yet coopted enough of the population by propaganda or fear that mere dissent would be accepted as worthy of jailtime (though they have, to be fair, gotten waaay to many people to believe it's worthy of scorn or mockery).
No illusions. Lots of things about the US suck, and it's not a bad idea to look in the mirror frequently for fascist blemishes so we don't someday find it's our entire figure. But to say there's no difference between US and Chinese responses to political dissent is ludicrous.
As for the critics of Powderly -- I think it's a good point that he quite possibly endangered some good folks by association, but hey, presumably they were less naive than he was, they'd have to know a bit about the conditions in their country, and they still made the decision of association, even if he was naive. As for his naiveté and artsy self-importance? Yeah, he's got it, just like a lot of people do, and oh yeah, it's really astute to note that so do lots of people who move to New York to pursue whatever particular dream they're chasing.
As it turns out, he put some of his zeal into a protest action which now enables him to illustrate firsthand what response to dissent is like in China, if only for a semi-privileged westerner who might get backed up by the consulate of a powerful country. Meanwhile, on Metafilter, lots of other smug semi-privileged Westerners lean back and treat his effort like it was just a hipster fashion choice. I mean, ha-ha! What a douche! That guy, trying to visit the problems of dissent in China! Great, haters, I assume you're at least writing letters for Amnesty International, right? I mean, there's got to be some legitimate way you can genuinely come by your own feelings of superiority to Powderly, or you wouldn't be posting here, right?
Believe me, I'm aware there are a lot of people are involved in politics or development efforts because it gives them a feeling of self-importance, and I think that's something anybody involved would do well to consider, along with issues of their own preparation. But I also think that it's worth giving a bit of a pass for good intentions, and the fact is, the acts of Powderly and co give me access to a firsthand perspective I wouldn't otherwise have.
But hey, if you'd rather have your complacent disdain for young artsy activists, feel free to encourage me off the lawn.
posted by namespan at 1:07 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
but overall it looks like a fantastic analogy to me.
Of course he, like a rape victim, didn't "deserve it."
However, your analogy would be more accurate if its protagonist went on a trip to the rapiest house in Rapetown, a city where rape is legal and the norm; a house filled with rapists who have raped many and are known around the world for raping; all while wearing an outfit with bright lasers writing "rape me" on it and shouting "I don't care if you rape people all the time and even though I am aware that I will probably be raped I am entering your house in which you rape many people all the time."
Didn't deserve it and it's an injustice for sure, but a little foolhardy at the same time.
posted by chococat at 1:13 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]
Of course he, like a rape victim, didn't "deserve it."
However, your analogy would be more accurate if its protagonist went on a trip to the rapiest house in Rapetown, a city where rape is legal and the norm; a house filled with rapists who have raped many and are known around the world for raping; all while wearing an outfit with bright lasers writing "rape me" on it and shouting "I don't care if you rape people all the time and even though I am aware that I will probably be raped I am entering your house in which you rape many people all the time."
Didn't deserve it and it's an injustice for sure, but a little foolhardy at the same time.
posted by chococat at 1:13 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]
But to say there's no difference between US and Chinese responses to political dissent is ludicrous.
You're right. If you're Muslim, the US response to political dissent is a hell of a lot more dangerous to you.
posted by Malor at 1:45 PM on September 3, 2008
You're right. If you're Muslim, the US response to political dissent is a hell of a lot more dangerous to you.
posted by Malor at 1:45 PM on September 3, 2008
(and yes, I mean that exactly and literally: ask the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis about the US response to dissent.)
posted by Malor at 1:47 PM on September 3, 2008
posted by Malor at 1:47 PM on September 3, 2008
Still had every moral right to engage in that behavior.
Here's where the analogy breaks down. The protesters in question did not have the legal right while in China to engage in that behavior and were detained accordingly.
For the rape half of the analogy to hold up, drinking & dressing 'like a slut' would be illegal, punishable by rape.
You can agree that they had the moral right to protest, had good intentions, and that China's regime sucks while still pointing out that it was willfully ignorant for them to expect that they would be simply deported for breaking the law just because they are white & hold a US passport.
Detention was a possibility they should have been painfully aware of, and arguably should have prepared for, considering what they were protesting for and knowing China's human rights track record.
As a female American living in another country, you'll just have to excuse me if I find it utterly repulsive to be applying the oft-[mis|ab]used "she asked for it" rape analogy to Americans willfully breaking the law in another country to protest for a just cause.
If you wish to continue the rape analogy derail, please feel free to MeMail me.
posted by romakimmy at 1:48 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
Here's where the analogy breaks down. The protesters in question did not have the legal right while in China to engage in that behavior and were detained accordingly.
For the rape half of the analogy to hold up, drinking & dressing 'like a slut' would be illegal, punishable by rape.
You can agree that they had the moral right to protest, had good intentions, and that China's regime sucks while still pointing out that it was willfully ignorant for them to expect that they would be simply deported for breaking the law just because they are white & hold a US passport.
Detention was a possibility they should have been painfully aware of, and arguably should have prepared for, considering what they were protesting for and knowing China's human rights track record.
As a female American living in another country, you'll just have to excuse me if I find it utterly repulsive to be applying the oft-[mis|ab]used "she asked for it" rape analogy to Americans willfully breaking the law in another country to protest for a just cause.
If you wish to continue the rape analogy derail, please feel free to MeMail me.
posted by romakimmy at 1:48 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
You're right. If you're Muslim, the US response to political dissent is a hell of a lot more dangerous to you.
Poor general response to political dissent isn't so much the problem here as racial/religious discrimination, assuming we're not talking about people who are advocating violence.
(and yes, I mean that exactly and literally: ask the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis about the US response to dissent.)
Both fascist responses to political dissent and the decision to invade Iraq are bad, but beyond that, I can't see much in common. Near as I can tell, the US Foreign Policies that led to the invasion of Iraq had very little to do political dissent, certainly not much with domestic political dissent in either country.
posted by namespan at 2:06 PM on September 3, 2008
Poor general response to political dissent isn't so much the problem here as racial/religious discrimination, assuming we're not talking about people who are advocating violence.
(and yes, I mean that exactly and literally: ask the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis about the US response to dissent.)
Both fascist responses to political dissent and the decision to invade Iraq are bad, but beyond that, I can't see much in common. Near as I can tell, the US Foreign Policies that led to the invasion of Iraq had very little to do political dissent, certainly not much with domestic political dissent in either country.
posted by namespan at 2:06 PM on September 3, 2008
So there seems to have been some kind of a flaw in his plan to project a protest message on the side of a building, and he was stopped from doing so, and badly treated, by the police. It's really too bad that he wasn't able to project that message, which would have undoubtedly change the minds of huge numbers of Chinese about Tibet being part of China. By huge numbers, of course, I mean approximately zero. First, there would be no press coverage of his stunt. None. Second, even if thousands of people saw it directly, just about all of those people are completely unsympathetic to any Free Tibet messages. They've received decades of indoctrination to the opposite message, and were uniformly pissed-off by the attempts to interfere with the Olympic torch journey.
In case any other Entitled Americans are still wondering, China is an excellent place to go looking for trouble. Maybe not the best place, certainly not the only place, but if you go looking for trouble there, you'll find it.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:15 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
In case any other Entitled Americans are still wondering, China is an excellent place to go looking for trouble. Maybe not the best place, certainly not the only place, but if you go looking for trouble there, you'll find it.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:15 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Man, that girl was drinking and dressed like a slut. She was totally asking to get raped.
Your analogy is incomplete, she was drinking and dressed like a slut in a place called Rape Bar!
When you fuck with the Chinese you really should be prepared for anything.
posted by Bonzai at 2:31 PM on September 3, 2008
Your analogy is incomplete, she was drinking and dressed like a slut in a place called Rape Bar!
When you fuck with the Chinese you really should be prepared for anything.
posted by Bonzai at 2:31 PM on September 3, 2008
There's obviously some differences too (which is why we call it an analogy, not an equivalence), but overall it looks like a fantastic analogy to me. I'd like to have responded to your specific criticisms of it, but you didn't make any.
Well....I really didn't think I had to specifically criticize it, since it's in no way analogous. But, since you asked:
Let's see, the two people being analogized:
Engaged in very risky behavior, which they should have known had a good chance of getting them hurt.
What exactly was the risky behavior on the part of the rape victim, again?
And in doing so challenged a culture's proscriptions against what good people can say, look, or act like in public.
Again...what did the rape victim do that corresponds with this?
Yeah, this is not so good. Woman raped and blamed for her rape because of her clothing != activist going to foreign country with history of oppression, flouts laws publicly when gov. is most sensitive and does 6 days in jail where he is "threatened" and then released. Bad analogy.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:42 PM on September 3, 2008
Well....I really didn't think I had to specifically criticize it, since it's in no way analogous. But, since you asked:
Let's see, the two people being analogized:
Engaged in very risky behavior, which they should have known had a good chance of getting them hurt.
What exactly was the risky behavior on the part of the rape victim, again?
And in doing so challenged a culture's proscriptions against what good people can say, look, or act like in public.
Again...what did the rape victim do that corresponds with this?
Yeah, this is not so good. Woman raped and blamed for her rape because of her clothing != activist going to foreign country with history of oppression, flouts laws publicly when gov. is most sensitive and does 6 days in jail where he is "threatened" and then released. Bad analogy.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:42 PM on September 3, 2008
fuckin n00b; what did the guy think was going to happen standing in front of that tank?
So ... the guy who stood in front of a tank stood in front of a tank knowing full well the guys inside the tank had orders to kill people, and that he was very likely going to die.
This guy went to China expecting to do a stunt and then be deported because he was a white American dude.
The two are not equivalent.
posted by Comrade_robot at 2:56 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
So ... the guy who stood in front of a tank stood in front of a tank knowing full well the guys inside the tank had orders to kill people, and that he was very likely going to die.
This guy went to China expecting to do a stunt and then be deported because he was a white American dude.
The two are not equivalent.
posted by Comrade_robot at 2:56 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
Entitled Americans
Just as a point of vocabulary, in America the traditional word you're looking for to describe freedom of speech is "right", not "entitlement". And there were a lot of Entitled Founding Americans who also risked and even lost their lives to break laws against free speech to help us get it that way. I admit that "Give me liberty or give me death" had a nicer ring than "I'm a lousy secret agent", but I suspect that the author of the former would have been disgusted to hear what some people here have to say about the author of the latter.
posted by roystgnr at 3:19 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just as a point of vocabulary, in America the traditional word you're looking for to describe freedom of speech is "right", not "entitlement". And there were a lot of Entitled Founding Americans who also risked and even lost their lives to break laws against free speech to help us get it that way. I admit that "Give me liberty or give me death" had a nicer ring than "I'm a lousy secret agent", but I suspect that the author of the former would have been disgusted to hear what some people here have to say about the author of the latter.
posted by roystgnr at 3:19 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
And there were a lot of Entitled Founding Americans who also risked and even lost their lives to break laws against free speech to help us get it that way.
Quite true, but they seemed to have some sort of plan on what they were doing. What this guy was trying to do was pointless even if he succeeded. Random American doing political laser-light show in China? I fail to see how that could accomplish anything. If anything, it may have had a net negative effect, if he brought down Chinese activists by his confession, since they're probably in a much better position to do something.
Combine that with the fact that he seemed shocked he might get actual punishment (like extended jail time), and I can't compare him to "Give me liberty or give me death".
posted by wildcrdj at 4:12 PM on September 3, 2008
Quite true, but they seemed to have some sort of plan on what they were doing. What this guy was trying to do was pointless even if he succeeded. Random American doing political laser-light show in China? I fail to see how that could accomplish anything. If anything, it may have had a net negative effect, if he brought down Chinese activists by his confession, since they're probably in a much better position to do something.
Combine that with the fact that he seemed shocked he might get actual punishment (like extended jail time), and I can't compare him to "Give me liberty or give me death".
posted by wildcrdj at 4:12 PM on September 3, 2008
I can't compare him to "Give me liberty or give me death".
Yeah, well, things ain't what they used to be.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:23 PM on September 3, 2008
Yeah, well, things ain't what they used to be.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:23 PM on September 3, 2008
I admit that "Give me liberty or give me death" had a nicer ring than "I'm a lousy secret agent", but I suspect that the author of the former would have been disgusted to hear what some people here have to say about the author of the latter.
Seriously? This guy managed to write "Free Beer" on the side of a building, with a fancy laser, from the safety of his hotel room before he got arrested; then blogged about it. It sucks how he was treated but he sounds like he thinks he's the guy from Midnight Express or something.
And I think your Founding Americans would be offended at the comparison.
posted by chococat at 4:30 PM on September 3, 2008
Seriously? This guy managed to write "Free Beer" on the side of a building, with a fancy laser, from the safety of his hotel room before he got arrested; then blogged about it. It sucks how he was treated but he sounds like he thinks he's the guy from Midnight Express or something.
And I think your Founding Americans would be offended at the comparison.
posted by chococat at 4:30 PM on September 3, 2008
And there were a lot of Entitled Founding Americans who also risked and even lost their lives to break laws against free speech to help us get it that way.
Those same Founding Americans had some interesting ideas about what to do when some clown from across the ocean wanted to tell them how to live. If James Powderly wants to impose his worldview on people living on another continent, he should take that into consideration.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 4:33 PM on September 3, 2008
Those same Founding Americans had some interesting ideas about what to do when some clown from across the ocean wanted to tell them how to live. If James Powderly wants to impose his worldview on people living on another continent, he should take that into consideration.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 4:33 PM on September 3, 2008
Metafilter you confuse me so!
This guy's a dick but P. Diddy is cool!?
posted by PHINC at 4:46 PM on September 3, 2008
This guy's a dick but P. Diddy is cool!?
posted by PHINC at 4:46 PM on September 3, 2008
Parasite Unseen: Those same Founding Americans had some interesting ideas about what to do when some clown from across the ocean wanted to tell them how to live. If James Powderly wants to impose his worldview on people living on another continent, he should take that into consideration.
I might point out that those Founding Americans had no particular compunctions about utilizing foreign assistance during their struggle for independence, and in fact, actively sought it.
Of course, if our foreign allies had been as competent as this guy, we'd probably still be spelling all our words with superfluous 'u's.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:01 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
I might point out that those Founding Americans had no particular compunctions about utilizing foreign assistance during their struggle for independence, and in fact, actively sought it.
Of course, if our foreign allies had been as competent as this guy, we'd probably still be spelling all our words with superfluous 'u's.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:01 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
He was stupid. He tried.
posted by Dumsnill at 5:07 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Dumsnill at 5:07 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Despite what the latest Mummy movie might lead you to believe, China is not just sitting around actively waiting for some white dude to be the spark that frees them from an evil mummy and/or Communist rule.
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:14 PM on September 3, 2008
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:14 PM on September 3, 2008
China is not just sitting around actively waiting for some white dude to be the spark that frees them...
Absolutely. They're waiting for some white CHICK. Björk, of course!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:34 PM on September 3, 2008
Absolutely. They're waiting for some white CHICK. Björk, of course!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:34 PM on September 3, 2008
A reason why China might not be in love with Americans promoting separatism to benefit Tibet's former slave-owning theocrats: Tibet, the 'great game' and the CIA.
posted by shetterly at 7:18 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by shetterly at 7:18 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Apparently he really did learn everything he knows from TV and movies:
“I gave her the slip by standing by the subway door and waiting for it to close, then jumping through,” he said. “Then I saw her staring at me out the subway window when the train pulled away.”
He pulled a reverse "French Connection" ! Sweet!
posted by mecran01 at 8:30 PM on September 3, 2008
“I gave her the slip by standing by the subway door and waiting for it to close, then jumping through,” he said. “Then I saw her staring at me out the subway window when the train pulled away.”
He pulled a reverse "French Connection" ! Sweet!
posted by mecran01 at 8:30 PM on September 3, 2008
In case anyone cares, this stuff is technically against Chinese law too. If you were going to visit China based on what the laws say, then you would have no reason to expect this kind of treatment. You would also expect to be advised of your right to consular access. The problem is that in China, as in the USA, what the statues say is irrelevant - the law is what the police and the security services say it is. And rights that are supposedly protected under treaties are in China, as in the USA, routinely ignored.
But yes, this guy is still a douche.
posted by 1adam12 at 9:43 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
But yes, this guy is still a douche.
posted by 1adam12 at 9:43 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Send all the Williamsburg artistes to China (preferably on a slow boat) and let all the Chinese artists move to Brooklyn.
I'm sitting in Williamsburg right now, I just went out to a splendid concert in an underground art bar I go to once or twice a week, there's at least one more place that I'm happy simply to step into the door of.
I guess I feel really sorry for you, having nothing better to do than to stick your tongue out at people who really don't care if you live or die because they're simply having so much more fun than you are.
As for "this guy," I wish we lived in a world where this annoying but ingenuous guy's naïve, unrealistic view of the fairness of the world were true. I don't see you dickless motherfuckers getting out and getting in the faces of our oppressors.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 11:48 PM on September 3, 2008
I'm sitting in Williamsburg right now, I just went out to a splendid concert in an underground art bar I go to once or twice a week, there's at least one more place that I'm happy simply to step into the door of.
I guess I feel really sorry for you, having nothing better to do than to stick your tongue out at people who really don't care if you live or die because they're simply having so much more fun than you are.
As for "this guy," I wish we lived in a world where this annoying but ingenuous guy's naïve, unrealistic view of the fairness of the world were true. I don't see you dickless motherfuckers getting out and getting in the faces of our oppressors.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 11:48 PM on September 3, 2008
Just as a point of vocabulary, in America the traditional word you're looking for to describe freedom of speech is "right", not "entitlement".
My use of the word 'entitled' was sarcastic. Apologies for its being overly subtle.
Just as a point of reality, in China the Bill of Rights has no force whatsoever. The rights that you think you have in the U.S. will not influence the Chinese police to any degree. For that matter, if this guy had been planning to paint an antiwar laser message on the side of a building in St. Paul this week, his experience would likely be similar to what he's had in China. However, that plan, and his complaints about his subsequent treatment, would have a greater chance of making some difference.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:03 AM on September 4, 2008
My use of the word 'entitled' was sarcastic. Apologies for its being overly subtle.
Just as a point of reality, in China the Bill of Rights has no force whatsoever. The rights that you think you have in the U.S. will not influence the Chinese police to any degree. For that matter, if this guy had been planning to paint an antiwar laser message on the side of a building in St. Paul this week, his experience would likely be similar to what he's had in China. However, that plan, and his complaints about his subsequent treatment, would have a greater chance of making some difference.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:03 AM on September 4, 2008
in China the Bill of Rights has no force whatsoever.
VS places where founding legal documents are 'just a god damned piece of paper'.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:30 AM on September 4, 2008
VS places where founding legal documents are 'just a god damned piece of paper'.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:30 AM on September 4, 2008
you dickless motherfuckers
Hey now. I have a penis, and have not ever slept with my mother.
posted by everichon at 9:48 AM on September 4, 2008
Hey now. I have a penis, and have not ever slept with my mother.
posted by everichon at 9:48 AM on September 4, 2008
I guess I feel really sorry for you, having nothing better to do than to stick your tongue out at people who really don't care if you live or die because they're simply having so much more fun than you are.
Huh. Where I come from we call that decadence, and it's not something to be proud of.
posted by Snyder at 6:55 PM on September 13, 2008
Huh. Where I come from we call that decadence, and it's not something to be proud of.
posted by Snyder at 6:55 PM on September 13, 2008
In other news: A United Nations agency is quietly drafting technical standards, proposed by the Chinese government, to define methods of tracing the original source of Internet communications and potentially curbing the ability of users to remain anonymous.
posted by homunculus at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2008
posted by homunculus at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2008
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That particular export is generally shipped along with bombloads of encouragement. What the hell was this guy thinking? What did he think would happen?
I started to realize that I’m really good at being a douche-baggy art star,
Except the "gy art star" part.
posted by three blind mice at 7:22 AM on September 3, 2008 [12 favorites]