Comments on: Big Ol' Large Hadron Collider Accident ... (But We're Not All Doomed)

Big Ol' Large Hadron Collider Accident ... (But We're Not All Doomed)

WCityMike — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:46:04 -0800

BBC: Hadron Collider forced to halt. An underground tunnel fault released one ton of liquid helium, which had been acting as coolant, into the tunnels of the Large Hadron Collider, causing 100 supercooled magnets to heat up by an extra 100°C and then fail. Vacuum was lost as well.

By: Kid Charlemagne

Kid Charlemagne — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:51:08 -0800

Quenching is the most expensive noise your NMR can make. The ironic part in this is most people will probably thing the "quench" has something to do with something being immersed in the liquid helium, when that's the opposite of the problem.

By: lumensimus

lumensimus — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:52:45 -0800

hastheworlddestroyedthelargehadroncollideryet.com

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:54:02 -0800

I don't say it often, and usually think it's over-used on MeFi but here it's appropriate: MASSIVE FAIL.

By: kiltedtaco

kiltedtaco — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:58:29 -0800

I think it's worth emphasizing in these articles that magnet quenches are completely expected events. This is a failure mode that the magnets and their containers are designed for. Fermilab experiences these somewhat regularly, and they're not newsworthy. I guess this one is getting publicized just because everyone wants to hear some news from the LHC now.

By: pjern

pjern — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:00:03 -0800

A ton of liquid helium...man that brings to mind apocalyptic Hollywood-style-terminator-movie images.

By: captainsohler

captainsohler — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:02:13 -0800

Given the hits and puts of the space program, this doesn't strike me as odd. For something this massive in scope to go off without any hitches? That would be odd.

By: Durn Bronzefist

Durn Bronzefist — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:07:44 -0800

That's what my shop teacher said about my light organ project, captainsohler. Let me turn this puppy on.

By: Cool Papa Bell

Cool Papa Bell — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:08:23 -0800

A ton of liquid helium...man that brings to mind apocalyptic Hollywood-style-terminator-movie images. Or some doofus doing the highest, squeakiest Mickey Mouse voice evah.

By: Sys Rq

Sys Rq — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:10:27 -0800

"quench" Next time try Gatorade, Large Hadron Collider. It doesn't taste as good as liquid helium, but it's slightly cheaper and has ELECTROLYTES.

By: mecran01

mecran01 — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:12:15 -0800

I bet John Connor had something to do with this.

By: Samizdata

Samizdata — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:13:45 -0800

Electrolytes are what Large Hadron Colliders crave! Well, that and collapsium Twinkies.

By: 445supermag

445supermag — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:20:03 -0800

When I first started working with superconducting magnets, my professor told me to leave the room fairly quickly in case of a quench. He said that the room could fill with so much condensed fog you might not be able to see your way out, leaving you to die from lack of oxygen, you final words sounding like Donald Duck...

By: hal9k

hal9k — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:21:33 -0800

Vacuum was lost as well. Forcing them to buy ShopVac to clean up mess. Last seen hoovering over Swiss Alps.

By: TwelveTwo

TwelveTwo — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:24:48 -0800

Dang, they could make some sick ass floating ice cream. Dang!

By: phyrewerx

phyrewerx — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:28:49 -0800

What a quench is - for the uninitiated - "A quench occurs when part of the superconducting coil enters the normal state. This can be because the field inside the magnet is too great, the rate of change of field is too great (causing eddy currents and resultant heating in the copper support matrix), or a combination of the two. More rarely a defect in the magnet can cause a quench. When this happens, that particular spot is subject to rapid joule heating, which raises the temperature of the surrounding regions. This pushes these into the normal state as well, which leads to more heating. The entire magnet rapidly (can take several seconds, depending on the size of the superconducting coil) becomes normal. This is accompanied by a loud bang as the energy in the magnetic field is converted to heat, and rapid boil-off of the cryogenic fluid. Permanent damage to the magnet is rare, but components can be damaged by localised heating or large mechanical forces." From Wikipedia.

By: Floydd

Floydd — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:29:18 -0800

OW, My bosons!

By: 445supermag

445supermag — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:29:28 -0800

Video of ~10 tesla magnet that holds about 60 liters of helium being quenched.

By: JoeXIII007

JoeXIII007 — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:38:11 -0800

Why do I have the feeling that, somewhere in the LHC, lurks Dee Dee?

By: johnj

johnj — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:56:00 -0800

hehehehe Dee Dee! Also, if I was there when this happened and hear that loud unexpected bang, I would still be running in the opposite direction as fast as I could.

By: bonobo

bonobo — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:04:06 -0800

Given that helium will soon be in short supply, I wonder how LHC failures like this will affect reserves and how they are dispersed.

By: Camofrog

Camofrog — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:10:47 -0800

bonobo, I was just about ask that...helium is hard to come by. It floats away into space. This is a ton we will never get back. But screw party balloons. I'm for feeding LHC all the helium it wants as long as it starts 'splaining stuff.

By: The Straightener

The Straightener — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:18:52 -0800

So are we all dead now or something?

By: Kid Charlemagne

Kid Charlemagne — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:35:16 -0800

Just based on the size of some Helium dewars that were sitting in the hall by shipping and receiving a couple months ago, a ton can't be that much of the world's supply. It was raining and my car was closer to that door.

By: mattoxic

mattoxic — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:45:47 -0800

Did any black holes leak out?

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:49:46 -0800

Anyone suspect foul play?

By: Balisong

Balisong — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:25:20 -0800

The goggles, they do nothing!

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:42:47 -0800

Well this article just became a lot more interesting. I came across a bizarre paper recently suggesting that the LHC might be shut down. Not because of the funding cuts that have been threatening particle physics projects around the world, nor because of law suits accusing the LHC of threatening life on Earth. (Not even because we at the LHC have recently been accused of having far too much fun rapping.) No, the paper suggested that future effects caused by the production of particles, such as the Higgs, could ripple backwards in time and prevent the LHC from ever operating. Links to the paper: Abstract PDF

By: Guy Smiley

Guy Smiley — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:56:35 -0800

Did somebody stick their head in the beam's path again?

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:00:27 -0800

Gordon! Thank God it's you! One minute we were running tests and the next there were these... crab things everywhere!

By: mazola

mazola — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:26:42 -0800

I lost a vacuum once. Beyond that, I can't relate.

By: Effigy2000

Effigy2000 — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:46:24 -0800

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..........!

By: DreamerFi

DreamerFi — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:50:54 -0800

And earlier this week there was a transformer that blew. Any news yet if that was a decepticon or an autobot?

By: Panjandrum

Panjandrum — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:51:31 -0800

So, just to check. Whew! Alright then, but I think I'd like a second, more casual, opinion. Well then, everything should be fine. Carry on.

By: Catfry

Catfry — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:54:38 -0800

This is annoying. First let me say as others already have, quenches are expected. When operating any superconducting magnet there's alot of mechanics that can go wrong, but when you are operating enough magnets that they measure 27 km end to end, things are bound to go wrong sooner or later. The LHC was designed with safety mechanisms that should minimize, wherever possible, the effects of component failure, and very smart people have spent decades thinking about how to do this, but when these ideas have to be put to the test in the real world, and you consider the sheer SIZE of the interdependent systems, and the NUMBER of components involved it seems less a question of whether you can avoid damage to equipment when something goes wrong (and something WILL go wrong, there has never been any question about that), but whether you can avoid great big CATASTROPHIC failure! There is a reason all access to the entire tunnels systems and caverns is completely forbidden during beam runs, and restricted to as few technicians as possible when the cooling systems are running. (And I'm not talking about black holes and going back in time, sheesh, that will only happen if they can get all the mechanical systems to work. I mean WON'T happen) To lose helium into the tunnel itself is very unpleasant. It means there has been a breach of the cooling circuit that runs the entire ring. There probably is some security measures so not all the helium is drained if things like this occur but I don't know about them. I don't know how easily it can be patched up again but I don't think this was a planned failure mode. Although the engineers at the site have very considerable resources at hand. Remember that transformer that was replaced some days ago was a monster weighing 30 tonnes, and it was done in the matter of 24 hours basically. That means they had this spare 'just lying around'. Who knows what else they can pull out of their sleeve. Although I doubt they have a spare 27 km accelerator ring lying around.. Although didn't you watch that movie Contact?

By: Catfry

Catfry — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:01:17 -0800

Although it does occur to me that if the liquid helium heats up and goes to gas form, venting it into the tunnel itself might be preferable to keeping it contained in the cooling system where it would build tremendous pressure and ultimately explosively rupture it. So venting the helium into the tunnel might actually be the nominal failure mode. If this is the case it means the cooling system has failed to some degree.

By: jimmythefish

jimmythefish — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:58:59 -0800

This is basically just delaying my 'told you so'. I'll still get to say it.

By: gcbv

gcbv — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 02:40:59 -0800

Maybe it was Lazlo.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 06:40:13 -0800

The Squirrel Smasher is still planned to come online on schedule.

By: Quietgal

Quietgal — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:41:54 -0800

I guess the LHC staff will have to defrost their pizzas in the microwave like everyone else until they fix this.

By: Killick

Killick — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:02:27 -0800

As captainsohler says above, it would be more unusual for something this complex to work first time without a hitch. There's a reason that flipping that switch for the first time is called the 'smoke test.'

By: cenoxo

cenoxo — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:40:51 -0800

Did any black holes leak out? Rescue Plan Seeks $700 Billion to Buy Bad Mortgages

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:50:40 -0800

They shouldn't feel too bad. Guys lose their hadrons every once in a while.

By: wtdoor

wtdoor — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:04:37 -0800

Here's the press release from CERN. It blames "a faulty electrical connection between two magnets" and predicts at least two months of downtime while they bring the sector back up to room temperature and fix it.

By: Sys Rq

Sys Rq — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:09:49 -0800

A ton (or a tonne, even) of liquid helium really isn't all that much. A tonne of water takes up just one cubic metre (1m x 1m x 1m); a tonne of liquid helium takes up eight cubic metres (2m x 2m x 2m) -- roughly a carload.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:55:59 -0800

Vacuum was lost as well. "Damn! This vacuum tube is empty, too!"

By: backseatpilot

backseatpilot — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:40:54 -0800

The idea of a bunch of superscientists running around sounding like chipmunks just popped in to my head.

By: Crabby Appleton

Crabby Appleton — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 22:30:00 -0800

Maybe this is God preventing us from destroying the planet.

By: 999

999 — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:42:26 -0800

So this has nothing to do with the fact their computers were hacked recently?

By: crataegus

crataegus — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:50:56 -0800

No, it doesn't. Their web servers were defaced (which is different from ZOMGH4X!!!). The machines directly associated with the LHC were nowhere near those web servers (in terms of the physical network...I've never been to CERN, so I can't tell you where some web servers are in relation to the largest machine ever built by mankind.).

By: DU

DU — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:33:14 -0800

Firedetectors were turned off ;) Maybe they do things differently in France, but in the US, institutional fire systems don't work optically. Gaseous helium is unlikely to melt the metal strips that actual fire systems work on.