Comments on: There is only hope.

There is only hope.

crossoverman — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:11:14 -0800

Have we seen this election before? Life imitates art as the current election cycle continues to echo the fictional 2006 Preisdential Election on The West Wing. Will the debates then be live and unmoderated like the seventh season episode "The Debate"? Will the Democratic Vice Presidential candidate suffer the same fate? And what would two-term President Josiah Bartlett say to Senator Barack Obama? (Final link warning: fan fiction by West Wing creator Aaron Sorkin)

By: crossoverman

crossoverman — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:14:29 -0800

Major spoilers for The West Wing. No spoilers for the current election.

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:27:38 -0800

I just read the MO'D piece and lolled till I smirked. It's very smooth, very intelligent and also full of hope. Which is nice.

By: Mister_A

Mister_A — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:02:41 -0800

What means it "MO'd"

By: piratebowling

piratebowling — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:10:01 -0800

MO'D = Maureen Dowd

By: WPW

WPW — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:15:22 -0800

I've watched Vinick, I've bought box-sets with Vinick, and you sir are no Vinick.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:30:20 -0800

Will Martin Sheen bow his head in thought, hands clasped in his lap, and then raise his chin resolutely when he has reached a decision?

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:35:27 -0800

I watched the Vinick-Santos debate episode on YouTube a few weeks ago and enjoyed it. I realized that America would be much better off if there was even the slightest possibility of such an unscripted discussion occurring, instead of the exact opposite. (I also realized that I'm a hopeless political dork.)

By: Oops

Oops — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:36:41 -0800

Politics aside, *dammit* that last link makes me nostalgic for the old Sorkin-written episodes of The West Wing...

By: Poolio

Poolio — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:39:58 -0800

McCain's RNC speech backdrop was used in Matt Santos' presidential announcement

By: aswego

aswego — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:04:35 -0800

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:10:17 -0800

It isn't fan fiction if you wrote the original.

By: graventy

graventy — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:22:13 -0800

Except in The West Wing the Democrats made fun of a speaker at the Republican Convention for using the corny "eight is enough" line. In real life they praised Obama for it. Apparently TV Democrats hate TV references more than real Democrats. Well, I'm pretty sure the West Wing world had eight good years of Bartlett, instead of eight incredibly awful years of Bush. So, yeah, I can see how that would be comparable.

By: Zambrano

Zambrano — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:34:31 -0800

A embarrassingly-bad presidential campaign imitates an equally embarrassingly-bad TV show.

By: PlusDistance

PlusDistance — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:58:32 -0800

1. Vinick actually continued to be a "maverick." He didn't cave in to the worst of his party like McCain. 2. It's bad taste, at a minimum, to speculate about the death of a healthy VP candidate, whether this election has parallels to the show or not. 3. West Wing:Real U.S. Politics::USS Enterprise:The Space Shuttle. (The Enterprise D. The Space Shuttle Challenger.) 4. Will next week's Dowd column have the Matthew Perry character from Studio 60 give advice to Lorne Michaels? 5. It's a dick move, I know, to comment in numbered lists. And to use the SAT analogy format. I apologize.

By: WCityMike

WCityMike — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:29:30 -0800

Did Sorkin actually provide this to Dowd, or was that part of the conceit setting up the dialog?

By: voltairemodern

voltairemodern — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:37:33 -0800

5. It's a dick move, I know, to comment in numbered lists. And to use the SAT analogy format. I apologize. The damage has already been done.

By: Medieval Maven

Medieval Maven — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:52:30 -0800

I miss the West Wing. I've always been so sad that WW deserted me in the middle of the worst presidency I hope I ever have to remember.

By: Nattie

Nattie — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:58:11 -0800

The best part of the West Wing dialog was that it took the place of an actual Maureen Dowd column.

By: Authorized User

Authorized User — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:13:36 -0800

Also, in the West Wing, the only reason Santos won was because of a god from the machine, ie. the massively implausible nuclear accident. How is it even a presidential contest when the second-worst nuclear accident of all time happens during the election cycle at a plant actually signed off by one of the candidates? I would much rather have seen them write a campaign where the democrats actually have to be competent to win.

By: I Foody

I Foody — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:14:14 -0800

I think it is funny that our debates are more scripted than the entirely scripted debates of a tv show. And by funny I mean I'm buying canned food and bottled water.

By: kimdog

kimdog — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:19:07 -0800

the massively implausible nuclear accident. As opposed to the collapse of several Wall Street giants (who survived the Depression) resulting in the largest bankruptcy (by a factor of 5) ever in the history of the US? Yeah, life imitates art.

By: Thorzdad

Thorzdad — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:54:22 -0800

I would much rather have seen them write a campaign where the democrats actually have to be competent to win. Except that truly effective writing still needs to have at least a small toe dangling in reality.

By: wendell

wendell — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:00:12 -0800

"The West Wing" was never a realistic drama about how Government works. It was a fantasy about how Aaron Sorkin wished Government worked. I didn't buy the premise for a minute and I'm pretty much the opposite of an Anti-Government Libertarian. When West Wing fans saw real Democratic Presidential candidates (Gore and Kerry) who were less entertaining than President Bartlett, a lot of voters lost enthusiasm. George Bush Jr. thanks you very much, Aaron. Senator Obama decided to go for the gold ring after Santos had won the fictional election on WW. Has his campaign style been Jimmy-Smits-inspired all along? In "Benson", a sassy-mouthed butler hired to manage the Governor's mansion worked his way up to become Lieutenant Governor. In "Air Force One", President Harrison Ford kicked terrorists off his plane. And both of those were about as realistic as "The West Wing".

By: JohnFredra

JohnFredra — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:14:54 -0800

Also, in the West Wing, the only reason Santos won was because of a god from the machine, ie. the massively implausible nuclear accident. It's worse than that. One of the executive producers of the show claimed that the only reason Santos won was because they didn't think that viewers could handle the emotional strain of both John Spencer's passing and a Vinick victory. So they rewrote the episode. A metadeus ex machina, if you will.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:27:12 -0800

McCain's RNC speech backdrop was used in Matt Santos' presidential announcement That still cracks me up. What a fuck up.

By: XQUZYPHYR

XQUZYPHYR — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:06:47 -0800

Also, Lucy and Peppermint Patty are secretly gay lovers.

By: From Bklyn

From Bklyn — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:18:37 -0800

Also, Lucy and Peppermint Patty are secretly gay lovers. I totally fucking knew it.

By: brundlefly

brundlefly — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 12:01:06 -0800

Also, Lucy and Peppermint Patty are secretly gay lovers. It's a secret?

By: JHarris

JHarris — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:31:54 -0800

I would much rather have seen them write a campaign where the democrats actually have to be competent to win. The incompetent-Democrats meme has gone around for years now, but lately I've been questioning it. What would competent Democrats look like? Would it just mean them doing the same kind of dirty tricks (impeachment, base pandering, Swift Boating, that DVD going into newspapers, challenging election rolls, etc.) the Republicans engage in? Is there any good way to respond to those tricks without stooping to them?

By: Dave Faris

Dave Faris — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:34:55 -0800

2. It's bad taste, at a minimum, to speculate about the death of a healthy VP candidate, whether this election has parallels to the show or not. Is it then also bad taste to speculate about the death of a President in terms of his choice of an unqualified hockey mom as his running mate?

By: billyfleetwood

billyfleetwood — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:35:31 -0800

In "Benson", a sassy-mouthed butler hired to manage the Governor's mansion worked his way up to become Lieutenant Governor. In "Air Force One", President Harrison Ford kicked terrorists off his plane. And both of those were about as realistic as "The West Wing". And a PTA mom from a strip mall suburb has somehow ended up as a Vice Presidential nominee,meanwhile the current Vice Presidenthas been running his own shadow presidency under the noses of God, the press and everybody.And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you pesky kids. Reality always outdoes fiction, so we can't really fault fiction for being fiction. In Aesops fables, Ants talked to grasshoppers. Doesn't make the lessons any less relevant. Watching Sarah Palin's interview with Charlie Gibson, as she valiantly parroted talking points in the place of real insight, i couldn't help but remember a scene from the West Wing... These are important thinkers, and understanding them can be very useful and it's not ever going to happen at a four-hour seminar. When the President's got an embassy surrounded in Haiti, or a keyhole photograph of a heavy water reactor, or any of the fifty life-and-death matters that walk across his desk every day, I don't know if he's thinking about Immanuel Kant or not. I doubt it, but if he does, I am comforted at least in my certainty that he is doing his best to reach for all of it and not just the McNuggets. Is it possible we would be willing to require any less of the person sitting in that chair? Does the real deputy chief of staff talk like that? I doubt it. Is it a valid and real point about politics today. very much so.

By: flippant

flippant — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:49:35 -0800

Just procured the first season of this show. The writing is frequently brilliant. I've no idea why I haven't given it a chance earlier.

By: crossoverman

crossoverman — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:31:05 -0800

Did Sorkin actually provide this to Dowd, or was that part of the conceit setting up the dialog? Dowd had Stephen Colbert write her column once, so there's precedent for that. And the cadence is just too close to Sorkin's writing to be anyone else. I've seen attempts at replicating Sorkin's style, but the turns of phrase in this and specific points made are 100% Sorkin.

By: genghis

genghis — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:52:54 -0800

[flippant] "Just procured the first season of this show."

Good as it is, just wait until the next one, which begins and ends in ways I think are just breathtaking.

[billyfleetwood] "Reality always outdoes fiction, so we can't really fault fiction for being fiction."

Yeah, it's Aristotle all over the place.

By: me & my monkey

me & my monkey — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:16:37 -0800

meanwhile the current Vice President has been running his own shadow presidency under the noses of God, the press and everybody.And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you pesky kids. Oh no, he's going to get away with it. He's not even a member of the executive any more! He's out there commando-stylee.

By: ZakDaddy

ZakDaddy — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:37:36 -0800

George W Bush goin' commando? No silk boxers? I think I threw up in my mouth a little bit. I'll get me coat.

By: crossoverman

crossoverman — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:38:29 -0800

Oh no, he's going to get away with it. He's not even a member of the executive any more! If Sorkin or John Wells had written that into The West Wing, we would have all said the show "jumped the shark". Man, this President jumped the shark six years ago, but it still got renewed and won't get canceled for months yet!

By: aclevername

aclevername — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:58:19 -0800

I'm a huge fan of the West Wing, so predictably, that bit worked for me. I loved it. Two bits in particular. This first is a bit that's been bugging me for a while, and I was glad to see Jon Stewart address it a few months back. "where does a guy with eight houses who was legacied into Annapolis get off calling you an elitist? And by the way, if you do nothing else, take that word back. Elite is a good word, it means well above average." God, seriously, that. I am only barely resisting the QFT (oops). Plus this standard Sorkin, which still gives me a bit of the shivers: "OBAMA Wait, what is it you always used to say? When you hit a bump on the show and your people were down and frustrated? You'd give them a pep talk and then you'd always end it with something. What was it ...? BARTLET "Break's over." One can only hope.

By: SomeOneElse

SomeOneElse — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:59:30 -0800

OBAMA I'm not. They pivoted off the argument that I was inexperienced to the criticism that I'm — wait for it — the Messiah, who, by the way, was a community organizer. When I speak I try to lead with inspiration and aptitude. How is that a liability? Hmm. The "wait for it." The "by the way." The "How is ____ a ____?" Its Bartlett talking to Lyman there... Yeah, its just a TV show, but you know. It was a fairly well above average TV show thanks!

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:18:26 -0800

the only reason Santos won was because of a god from the machine This is Metafilter. You can say deus ex machina, if that's what you mean, without anyone rolling their eyes or looking confused. Anyone worth listening to. And who the heck says 'a god from the machine', anyway? Oh, modern education, how I hate you!

By: lunasol

lunasol — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:18:54 -0800

Has his campaign style been Jimmy-Smits-inspired all along? Actually, Sorkin has said that Santos was based on Obama. And it's certainly no secret that Vinick was based on McCain. Slate actually had a great video on this very topic during the primaries. And some people have pointed out how Sorkinesque Obama's convention speech was. To me, Sarah Palin also seems like a character right outta Sorkin's brain.

By: crossoverman

crossoverman — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:25:02 -0800

Actually, Sorkin has said that Santos was based on Obama. No, he didn't. Santos was created after Sorkin left the series. But it is true, Santos was based on Obama and his 2004 Convention speech. To me, Sarah Palin also seems like a character right outta Sorkin's brain. His characters have more depth.

By: emelenjr

emelenjr — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:31:28 -0800

I wish I could see that dialogue filmed for TV, with Bartlett and Obama having their chat as they speed-walk together around Bartlett's house. Also, Sorkin should have stuck in an "I'm saying..." or two.

By: billyfleetwood

billyfleetwood — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:36:22 -0800

from season 1: On Gubernatorial Foreign Policy Experience Bartlet: It's not like I'm totally without experience, you know. MORRIS: Yes, sir. BARTLET: You're talking to a former governor. I was commander-in-chief of the New Hampshire National Guard. MORRIS: You guys got into a lot of tough scrapes, did you? BARTLET: Didn't have to. We'd just stand on the border and stare you down. Then we'd all go for pancakes.

By: crossoverman

crossoverman — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:05:00 -0800

I wish I could see that dialogue filmed for TV, with Bartlett and Obama having their chat as they speed-walk together around Bartlett's house. I expect, by now, no more speed walking for poor old President Bartlett - what with having to use a cane and all.

By: From Bklyn

From Bklyn — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:50:23 -0800

a god from the machine I assumed he meant a RedBull from the Coke Machine down the hall. What? No, it didn't make sense but Caffeine is my god of choice.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:40:30 -0800

BARTLET.

By: DevilsAdvocate

DevilsAdvocate — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:38:02 -0800

It isn't fan fiction if you wrote the original. It can be, and this is.

By: Slagman

Slagman — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:03:35 -0800

I love this quote. Would probably backfire in real life. But still. "Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did Conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things...every one! So when you try to hurl that label at my feet, 'Liberal,' as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won't work, Senator, because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor." -- Matt Santos, The West Wing

By: amery

amery — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:23:35 -0800

The final link is pretty neat since it shows one of Sorkin's influences -- James Goldman's script for The Lion in Winter. Bartlet to Obama (Sorkin): "You could eat their lunch, make them cry and tell their mamas about it and God himself would call it restrained." Eleanor of Aquitaine to Henry II (Goldman): "For these ten years you've lived with everything I've lost, and loved another woman through it all, and I am cruel? I could peel you like a pear and God himself would call it justice!" Bartlet to Obama (Sorkin): "You're a 47-year-old black man with a foreign-sounding name who went to Harvard and thinks devotion to your country and lapel pins aren't the same thing and you're in a statistical tie with a war hero and a Cinemax heroine. To these aged eyes, Senator, that's what progress looks like." Henry II to Philip II (Goldman): "I found out the way your mind works and the kind of man you are. I know your plans and expectations - you've burbled every bit of strategy you've got. I know exactly what you will do, and exactly what you won't, and I've told you exactly nothing. To these aged eyes, boy, that's what winning looks like!" James Goldman and his brother certainly shared some talents. Oh, hell. If you like good dialogue, just rent it. Bonus: Peter O'Toole and Katharine Hepburn!

By: zardoz

zardoz — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 04:39:27 -0800

God I miss Aaron Sorkin's West Wing. Post-Arron Sorkin West Wing, not so much.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:45:23 -0800

What Might A President Obama's Cabinet Look Like?