Bottoms up

September 26, 2008 1:16 PM

Now that the presidential debate is back on, it's time to prepare by selecting the most appropriate drinking game for tonight's debate.

• Radar's Ale to the Chief
• Comedy Central's Presidential Debate Drinking Game
• It’s like they’re…mmmagic 2008 Presidential Debate Drinking Game
• From the Archives, Wonkett's 2004 Presidential Debate Drinking Game -- and, of course, one for this year.
• The Huffington Post's debate drinking game.
• University of Florida's Presidential Debate Drinking Game.
• The Seminal's Obama-McCain Debate Drinking Game.
• A Brief Foray Into The World Of Contemporary Affairs
• And my favorite Presidential Debate Drinking Game

posted by nitsuj (586 comments total)

If only I could watch the debates online... streaming... LIVE!
posted by bjork24 at 1:17 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm taking a drink everytime I hear the word "Change". That should get me good and drunk.
posted by trbrts at 1:21 PM on September 26, 2008

Ah, and I thought I was the only one who came up with something to do besides seethe at the TV. Here are my rules:

Words or terms - Sips

- Debate Rhetoric-
Change - 1
War - 1
100 year war - 2
War: what is it good for? - 3
Economic meltdown - 2
Fundamentals are strong - 3
Whiners - CHUG
Terrorism - 1
Bin Laden - 1
September 11 - 2
Taliban - 3
"Obama is Muslim" - CHUG
"...my fellow senator" - 1
"...my dear colleague" - 2
"...this asshole" - CHUG

-Gestures-
Candidates shake hands - 1
Candidates hug - 3
Candidates bump fists - CHUG
Obama writes notes - 1
McCain strokes his chin - 1
Politician's "slice" with open hand when making a point - 1
Rests both hands on podium when making a point - 2
Pounds fist or shoe on podium - 3
Makes whacking-off gesture while rolling eyes - CHUG

- Audience Reactions-
Applause - 1
Standing ovation - 2
Boos and hisses - 3
Chicken or donkey noises - CHUG

-Press Coverage-
"______ won this round of debates" - 1
"______ showed remarkable composure" - 1
"Lipstick" - 3
"First black man/minority" - 1
"Latest white guy" - 3
"Oldest man" - 2
"First soul man" - CHUG
Comparison of Obama's suit to traditional Muslim garb (Fox News only) - 1
posted by seldom seen cid at 1:21 PM on September 26, 2008 [44 favorites]

> Sen. John McCain... believes enough progress has been made for him to debate Democrat Sen. Barack Obama...

Now that is a remarkable coincidence and fortuitous timing. If you'd read about it in a fictional novel type book you'd totally be finding it unconvincing.
posted by ardgedee at 1:23 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

I know that I'll be playing Lingo.
posted by Rinku at 1:23 PM on September 26, 2008

Here's mine: anytime McCain says "my friends," CHUG.

Clearly I plan on getting good and drunk.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 1:25 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

BTW -- 'Debate Drinking Game' already under discussion in this previous thread.
posted by ericb at 1:26 PM on September 26, 2008

but when you're between my thighs, you blow me awayyyyy.
posted by Dumsnill at 1:27 PM on September 26, 2008

If either candidate ends a sentence with the phrase "like Donkey Kong!", do a keg stand.
posted by GuyZero at 1:33 PM on September 26, 2008

trbrts: I'm taking a drink everytime I hear the word "Change". That should get me good and drunk.

Unless you are using tap-water, this drinking game will likely kill you.

That said, I'm going to take a drink every time McCain says something that is a direct contradiction of what he's said in the past year, and a big shot every time mentions being a POW.

I'll also take a drink every time Obama mentions the word Hope, but that's just because I want to get good and stinking tonight.
posted by quin at 1:33 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'll be playing a gig. Anyone know how to stream the debate to the iPhone? I'll be at a bar but drinking games only slow me up.
posted by sourwookie at 1:35 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm taking a drink every time US election filter pops up. I'm constantly drunk.
posted by Dumsnill at 1:38 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Best drinking game ever.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:42 PM on September 26, 2008

Don't forget the Twitter drinking game: a shot for McCain saying "my friends," and a shot for Obama saying "change." (That page is fun to watch, too.)
posted by fiercecupcake at 1:43 PM on September 26, 2008

Is there anywhere in the UK this is going to be on live?
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:45 PM on September 26, 2008

I want to drink just because McCain is showing up.
posted by never used baby shoes at 1:49 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain wins debate!

a screenshot of this morning's WSJ
posted by elwoodwiles at 1:49 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Surely everything is live on the Internet
posted by IndigoJones at 1:50 PM on September 26, 2008

Oh boy, I am going to need a handle of Jack Daniels for this one.

I can't wait!
posted by clearly at 1:51 PM on September 26, 2008

"American People"
"9/11"
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:52 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm planning to watch it on cspan.org (I have a computer hooked up to my TV).

So, yeah, it's live on the Internet.
posted by greenie2600 at 1:52 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is there anywhere in the UK this is going to be on live?

Apparently both BBC News and CNN are showing it from 2am tonight, likely the other news channels will as well. More4 are repeating it the debate 11pm tomorrow (Saturday).
posted by HaloMan at 1:52 PM on September 26, 2008

You don't have to listen! It is already won!!



His gang just couldn't wait to let us know so we could, like McCain, get to bed early
cause he missed his nappie to fly back from DC, where he fixed the bailout and made
the GOP a bunch of smiling ultras, convinced that a free market fixes all things but
what a vasectomy calls for and a flat tire.
posted by Postroad at 1:54 PM on September 26, 2008

Clearly I plan on getting good and drunk.

Yea, me too.
posted by clearly at 1:57 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

No matter what happens, I'm going to get wasted and cry my eyes out on election night.
posted by space2k at 1:59 PM on September 26, 2008 [6 favorites]

A Drinking Game for November 4th

If Obama wins, pop open a bottle of wine.

If McCain wins, down six shots of hard alcohol, chug six beers, pop open a box of wine, siphon down that tub of moonshine you have in the basement, and do this every day for the next four years.
posted by halfling at 2:03 PM on September 26, 2008 [15 favorites]

down six shots of hard alcohol, chug six beers, pop open a box of wine, siphon down that tub of moonshine you have in the basement, and do this every day for the next four years.

That's what I've been doing for the last eight...
posted by elwoodwiles at 2:06 PM on September 26, 2008

And the pills, halfling. Don't forget the pills.
posted by vibrotronica at 2:12 PM on September 26, 2008

I'll just watch the debates, and drink myself into oblivion whenever I realize one of these two schmucks will become our next leader. That's my drinking "game."
posted by not_on_display at 2:13 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Everyone gets two drinks. Whenever Obama says "change", switch to the other drink. Whenever McCain says "change", drink more of the same.
posted by gurple at 2:15 PM on September 26, 2008 [44 favorites]

Unless Even if you are using tap-water, this drinking game will likely kill you.

Overhydration can be fatal.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:18 PM on September 26, 2008

And the pills, halfling. Don't forget the pills.

Too true. Although, I was worried it wouldn't qualify as a "drinking game." Thankfully, science has us covered.
posted by halfling at 2:18 PM on September 26, 2008

• One shot for every reference to McCain as a POW
• Chug one tumbler of Wild Turkey if McCain claims personal responsibility for progress being made on the bailout bill
posted by Thorzdad at 2:19 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm probably going to puke before I even start drinking.
posted by mullingitover at 2:20 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Here's mine: anytime McCain says "my friends," CHUG.

The man's name is WALNUTS!
posted by Ironmouth at 2:21 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain: The debate is off.
Obama: No it isn’t.

McCain: ...!?
Obama: ...

McCain: ok
posted by Smedleyman at 2:23 PM on September 26, 2008 [47 favorites]

I now share with you the greatest and most excellent drinking game of all time.

You Drink

Get together with a bunch of friends.

Bring alcohol.

Sit in the same room.

Any time anyone wants to, point at any other person in the room and say "you drink."

The person who was pointed at drinks.

Repeat indefinitely.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:23 PM on September 26, 2008 [5 favorites]

I've been working my way through season 1 of Deadwood by having a shot everytime Al Swearingen does. It's the best drinking game I've ever played.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 2:24 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

Gah! - add *drink*
posted by Smedleyman at 2:26 PM on September 26, 2008

If McCain wins, down six shots of hard alcohol, chug six beers, pop open a box of wine, siphon down that tub of moonshine you have in the basement, and do this every day for the next four years.

So, more of the same, then?
posted by enn at 2:33 PM on September 26, 2008

I suggest the game Drink. The rules are simple. Sit in a circle with your friends and draw straws. Whoever draws the short straw takes a drink first. Then each person, one at a time and moving clockwise around the circle, takes a drink. And every time you see someone else take a drink, you take a drink.

Drink has nothing to do with the debate, but it will help to put you in the appropriate frame of mind to deal with American politics these days.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:44 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Whoever draws the short straw takes a drink first.

Whoever draws the short straw also gets the short glass, I hope.
posted by pracowity at 2:52 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm going to watch this on Al Jazeera so I won't be able to drink alcohol, sorry.
posted by matteo at 2:55 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

We should keep this thread open during the debate. 8,000 identical comments in a row ("DRINK!") would definitely be the best of the web.
posted by gurple at 3:00 PM on September 26, 2008

Hugh Hewitt says it's even money that Obama will use "Ah..." "Uhm..." "You Know..." "and..." and other forms of verbal filler at least 35 times, about one per minute of air time when he's talking.
posted by Class Goat at 3:00 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

"McCain wins debate!

a screenshot of this morning's WSJ"

McCain wins lots of things.
posted by An Infinity Of Monkeys at 3:02 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh yeah, I got another one: I'm gonna yell Na zdoróvje! and take a drink every time someone mentions "Russia", I'm going to turn that drink into a shot if the reference is to it being visible from anywhere in the states.
posted by quin at 3:09 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

McCain wins lots of things.

Washer-dryer combo caused me to nearly spit on my monitor. mcCain is, truly, a winnar.
posted by GuyZero at 3:12 PM on September 26, 2008

Wow. That's a lot of alcohol poisoning.
posted by billypilgrim at 3:33 PM on September 26, 2008

Getting drunk is the only way these debates will make sense.

How I wish Gallagher was moderating this debate...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 3:34 PM on September 26, 2008

Chug everytime you hear "You know what old Jack Burton says at a time like this."

What? What are you watching tonight?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:39 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's just gonna be me and my cats watching tonight—I've had a long week, and I'm taking it easy. To that end, I have a bottle of my favorite Shiraz, a sack full of blue tortilla chips, and my trusty lounge-around-the-house pants.

I fully expect Obama to trounce McCain. (I also expect that a significant portion of the electorate will neither notice nor care.)

What I'm really looking forward to, though, is the VP debates. After watching Palin for the last few weeks, I suspect she'll be a twitching pile of hamburger by the time that's over. And it'll be fun to watch.
posted by greenie2600 at 3:40 PM on September 26, 2008

Blue tortilla chips with Shiraz?
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 3:46 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Blue tortilla chips with Shiraz?

Sure. I'm cosmopolitan like that.
posted by greenie2600 at 4:01 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

Another excellent non-political drinking game:

Big Fish

After fishing with a bunch of friends, place all the fish you caught in a cooler.

All players reach in and pull out a fish. Player with the biggest fish assigns drinks.

Repeat.

Should the fish start to come apart, the game can become Big Chunk of Fish.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:19 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

Blue tortilla chips with Shiraz?

I only have Pecan Harvest Ale and a bag of mellowcreme pumpkins (really, long story). Can I play anyway?
posted by jonmc at 4:20 PM on September 26, 2008

I have Bronchitis and a sinus infection, so I'm not drinking at all. Maybe I'll do an anti-drinking game. Like, I'll take a drink whenever McCain makes sense. That should keep me sober.
posted by Biblio at 4:30 PM on September 26, 2008

Anyone know where I can stream the debate online, full screen? Seems C-SPAN's RealPlayer (I'm on a Mac) makes you keep it tiny
posted by bukharin at 4:32 PM on September 26, 2008

Where can I watch the presidential debate online?
posted by carsonb at 4:42 PM on September 26, 2008

I only have Pecan Harvest Ale and a bag of mellowcreme pumpkins (really, long story). Can I play anyway?

Goddamn fuckin' elitist!
posted by ericb at 4:52 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

bukharin: try cnn.com.
posted by greenie2600 at 4:53 PM on September 26, 2008

The first time anyone says 'sloozy' -- moderator included -- I'm drinking everything I've got in the house as fast as I can.
posted by mazola at 4:57 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

greenie2600 writes "I fully expect Obama to trounce McCain. (I also expect that a significant portion of the electorate will neither notice nor care.)"

This. The debates are pointless theatre.
posted by mullingitover at 5:07 PM on September 26, 2008

John McCain Debate bingo (pdf)
posted by euphorb at 5:07 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

every time a mefite points out that debates are pointless - 1
posted by boo_radley at 5:08 PM on September 26, 2008

My let's-get-drunk plan for the Canadian debates is to drink every time one of them mangles pronunciation in the official language that is not their mother tongue. This way, between Harper/Layton on Wedsneday and Dion on Thursday I should be drunk for over 24 hours straight.

You guys have the right idea, doing this on a friday. I'm watching tonight, I have my Corona, now I just have to choose the game.
posted by aclevername at 5:32 PM on September 26, 2008

I am here for the live debate thread. I have beer.
posted by The Whelk at 5:49 PM on September 26, 2008

I too am here for the debate thread. I have cigarettes, beer and coffee. And pizza.
posted by slackdog at 5:59 PM on September 26, 2008

boo_radley writes "every time a mefite points out that debates are pointless - 1"

Regurgitate one drink?
posted by mullingitover at 6:00 PM on September 26, 2008

I keep hearing about this debate thread...
posted by defenestration at 6:00 PM on September 26, 2008

I am here for the debate thread. It's 2am and I have diet coke and ice cream!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:01 PM on September 26, 2008

Jim's eyes! his eyes! Like inky windows to nothing! I'm terrified and it's only 30 seconds in.
posted by The Whelk at 6:02 PM on September 26, 2008 [8 favorites]

Rum and coke! Let's get it on!
posted by Big_B at 6:02 PM on September 26, 2008

No cheering allowed? BOOOOO!
posted by Big_B at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2008

Well, no visible wires.
posted by box at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2008

That was very disciplined applause. I'm already liking this crowd.

And man, Lehrer's right out the door with the finance stuff. Delicious.
posted by penduluum at 6:04 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm here for the debate thread as well.

But I have to be very quiet, as I'm at work...surrounded by surly Republicans. I have my trusty iPod headphones plugged in, and some tea subbing for some beer.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 6:04 PM on September 26, 2008

So is that five or six "uhs" already?
posted by Big_B at 6:04 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama looks tired.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:04 PM on September 26, 2008

Here we go. Can I bear to watch this?
posted by jokeefe at 6:05 PM on September 26, 2008

Let's do it.
posted by sciurus at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2008

And to say "and" instead.
posted by penduluum at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2008

Kennedy!
posted by mazola at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2008

WTF?! Kennedy?!
posted by sara is disenchanted at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2008

Kennedy's still in the hospital? I heard he was out already...
posted by slackdog at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2008

Huh? I thought Kennedy was at home.
posted by jokeefe at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2008

Liar. He's not in the hospital, he's home. Double drink!
posted by yhbc at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2008

Cheap shot emotional manipulation
posted by LooseFilter at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm glad he's feeling better. WTF?
posted by jokeefe at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2008

The play on Main Street/Wall Street is getting a little tired
posted by casaubon at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

So he's trying to strike a conciliatory tone here? That's rich.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2008

Jim Lehrer's tie is heinous.
posted by sciurus at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2008

He's a bald faced liar. Talking about bipartisanship when he disrupted the deal? What the hell? He sounds like he's groping for something he thinks he should say...
posted by jokeefe at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain's sounding rather sick... Keeps clearing his throat and coughing.
posted by Axle at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2008

The end of the beginning... the beginning of the end... lots of work.... is my two minutes up yet? Please? I can has win?
posted by jokeefe at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2008

Kennedy had a seizure and was taken to the emergency room. Supposedly caused by a change in meds.
posted by Big_B at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2008

The "and" thing was noticeable, but better than "uh".

Kennedy
posted by dejah420 at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2008

Greatest Invasion in Forever--he can see FUTURE HISTORY.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2008

FUCKING LIAR.

I don't know if I can actually watch this.

Eisenhower? WTF?
posted by jokeefe at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2008

What the shit is he on about now? I stopped listening for 20 seconds and he's talking about letters? Or something?
posted by penduluum at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2008

The "back and forth"...not so much back or forth.
posted by dejah420 at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2008

Lehrer is trying to get them to actually debate each other, but they keep talking to him.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama seems to me to be commanding and forthright. McCain hasn't said a thing of substance yet.
posted by jokeefe at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama should drop the axe: "Senator McCain, you have long been a strong proponent of deregulation and that is what lead us directly into this crisis."
posted by LooseFilter at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama is eating up the back and forth time. If he keeps that up, McCain will seem passive, but at the same time will have less of a chance to f-up.
posted by sciurus at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2008

Dear lord, what the hell is he on about?
posted by dejah420 at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2008

The future's so bright, McCain's got to wear those big wraparound shades they give to cataract patients.
posted by penduluum at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

why is spending out of control John McC???

cough**Iraq**cough
posted by triggerfinger at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2008

What about a $700B earmark for dumbass banks?
posted by sciurus at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2008

Wait: all of them? Every spending bill? Uh, I mean, we have to spend some money, right?
posted by penduluum at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2008

what! does McCain oppose science projects? I don't get it.
posted by dhruva at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2008

Pork caused the market crisis WHAT.
posted by enn at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain seems to be trying to sound like Reagan. Sadly, he's chosen to imitate the post-Alzheimers Reagan. You'd think they would've warned him.
posted by jonmc at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

You can tell Obama's pissed when his blink rate shoots up.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama should bring up the fact that IRAQ is costing a grillion dollars a year.
posted by sciurus at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2008

Jon, heh.
posted by jokeefe at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2008

heheheh
posted by salvia at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2008

"They called me the sheriff."
posted by salvia at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2008

FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCES!
posted by Effigy2000 at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2008

I thought he said Cindy called him "the sheriff"
posted by Big_B at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2008

THE NEW SHERIFF'S A NI-*bell ringing*
posted by sciurus at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2008 [12 favorites]

Fuck ya'll, I'm going to Ireland.
posted by penduluum at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2008

YOU FORGOT IRELAND
posted by slackdog at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

my friends - DRINK
posted by Big_B at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2008

pushing your pro-biz leanings is probably not a good idea at the moment.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2008

Oooh, split screen. That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.
posted by quin at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2008

Oooh, split screen. That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

What channel?
(And do you have this sweet reaction trendline at the bottom?)
posted by salvia at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2008

What channel are you on salvia?
posted by sciurus at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2008

Am I just amazingly biased, or is this already looking like an absolute mop-the-floor debacle?
posted by hincandenza at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2008

Sweet. He got the health care benefits tax in there.
posted by Big_B at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2008

NBC has splitscreen
posted by slackdog at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2008

"A classic example of walkin' the walk and talkin' the talk."

ooh, folksy
posted by salvia at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2008

CNN
posted by salvia at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm watching it on PBS, no split here.
posted by dejah420 at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2008

Is McCain is scared of Obama?
posted by ryoshu at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain's smirk is really irritating.
posted by lullaby at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain looks like he's having a mild stroke...
posted by slackdog at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2008

Ah, CNN's got the split now. Thanks, CNN!
posted by salvia at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm watching it on CNN Live (online).
posted by sciurus at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2008

(And do you have this sweet reaction trendline at the bottom?)

That would be why I turned CNN off. I don't want to be made to feel good or bad about whether or not other people feel good or bad while I am already feeling good or bad.
posted by lumensimus at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

McCain creeps me out. Seriously.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2008

Most U.S. firms paid no taxes over 7-year span from 1998 to 2005
posted by Big_B at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

I can't bear to watch, so I'm going home. Best of luck, you guys.
posted by jokeefe at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm glad Jim Lehrer decided to make this debate the economic one.
posted by sciurus at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2008

Yeah, McCain is standing there, looking down, grinning when Obama confronts him. It makes him look deceitful.
posted by ninjew at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2008

CNN has a link to the split screen and live reaction on their main page, so you can watch it streaming, it's the "voters rate debate performances" link, here.
posted by hincandenza at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2008

I tuned in late due to technical difficulties (i.e., C-SPAN's video feed is apparently getting hammered, and I had to switch to CNN and install their stupid Turner Media Player).

Yeah, so what's up with the foreign policy debate turning into an economics debate?

Speaking as a quasi-libertarian who will be voting for Obama: man, he sure wants to spend a lot of money.
posted by greenie2600 at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2008

Eh, they'll get to that eventually.
posted by sciurus at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2008

Eliminating ethanol subsidies? Oh crap I actually agree with McCain on something.
posted by Big_B at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2008

I swear, the "economics" debate had better have a hell of a lot of foreign policy questions. It would be a shame for them to have this same argument again.
posted by maqsarian at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm an Australian so US-ians, answer something for me; who is the dude running the debate and is he biased one way or the other or not?
posted by Effigy2000 at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2008

I wish McCain would return the favor and speak directly to Obama. Avoiding that makes him look like a chump.
posted by doublehelix at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2008

Most liberal voting record in the Senate? Give me a break.
posted by lullaby at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2008

Effigy, he's Jim Lehrer. He's usually more laid back than partisan. It's looking like someone let Jim know that people thought he was boring last time around.
posted by Axle at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2008

It would be amazing if there were some kind of independent fact-checker available right at the debates. The whole 'that's a fact'/'no, that's a lie' is frustrating.
posted by stinkycheese at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Spending freeze? That'll happen.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2008

The first mention of GWB was also the biggest split in CNN's magic audience reaction graph
posted by Adam_S at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2008

Yeah, I hear you there XQUZYPHYR.
posted by sciurus at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2008

Good call XQUZYPHYR
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2008

The "independent" trendline went up on the "withdraw from Iraq" part.
posted by salvia at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama is glaring at McCain every time McCain speaks. McCain won't even look at Obama.

Win for Obama with the EVIL EYE!
posted by zardoz at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2008

XQUZYPHYR: "WTF, Obama? Why the fuck isn't he just saying "I want to end the war; that'll save us a few HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS right there" ???"

Right on. But I suspect that McCain could use that as a wedge in the debate. Maybe he's trying to avoid it for that?
posted by Effigy2000 at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2008

Yes. I'm telling the truth! I'm lying! He's lying! I'm telling the truth! I'm lying!

A) I'd love for Obama to respond to the 932 million line, but I guess they didn't prep for that one.

B) This format isn't looking too good with a he said, he said thing going on.
posted by cavalier at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2008

FUCKING LIAR.

Can someone smarter than me help me out? Is Obama really "the most left member of the Senate"?
posted by inigo2 at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2008

"rule the country?" Since when do presidents "rule?"
posted by enn at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

not handing health care over the gov't? You mean like we did with all the banks? Why, that would be socialism!!!!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2008

On the "we'll get the money back" part, both Repubs & Dems were lower than Independents. Does that indicate that the people who pay attention to this stuff don't believe him?
posted by salvia at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2008

"rule the country?" Since when do presidents "rule?"

2003
posted by salvia at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Mommy, what's an orgy?"
posted by casaubon at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

ORGY OF SPENDING
posted by blasdelf at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is Obama really "the most left member of the Senate"?

I would imagine that Bernie Sanders is the furthest left.
posted by lullaby at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

How did government spending cause the current financial crisis? How will it solve it? I don't get it.
posted by michswiss at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ooh, independents love his Bush-hating more than Dems!
posted by salvia at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2008

You just can't talk about government spending without mentioning Iraq.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2008

Orgy. heh.
posted by Big_B at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2008

And I am buzzword, everyone knows this buzzword about me; I can't believe I have to remind everyone of buzzword buzzword.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2008

Jesus, how many times can he say he isn't Miss Congeniality? He really relishes the role of asshole.
posted by gatorae at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

"I think the lessons of Iraq are DON'T MAKE SHIT UP JUST TO GO TO WAR."
posted by inigo2 at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

Is Obama really "the most left member of the Senate"?

If it's from the source I think it's from, then it's pretty much that they define left in such a way that Obama would be the most leftist member. Kerry got the same tag.
posted by drezdn at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2008

I enjoy hearing about Iraq in the past-tense
posted by Adam_S at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2008

Seriously.
posted by sciurus at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2008

I voted against Bush only 10% of the time, but those times really should my maverick nature, and caused me to lose Miss Congeniality, which went to Arlen Specter. That bitch.
posted by drezdn at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wow look at the red line go up with Obama talking about Iraq.
posted by Big_B at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2008

Heh - McCain seems to be lacking a flag pin on his lapel.
posted by lullaby at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Quip of the night from the Grauniad:

Scorecard so far: Barack Obama is winning if you measure by substantiveness of answers. John McCain is winning if you count number of years spent in a Vietnamese jail.

posted by Sonny Jim at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

And looking back for a second, when McCain was repeating the bear-related earmark story, why didn't Obama mention the earmarks Palin got for an almost identical reason?
posted by inigo2 at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama's points take awhile to get to, I feel that McCain is making better brief hits.
posted by sciurus at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2008

Mention paying the Iraqis to quit fighting!!! It's not just the surge!
posted by inigo2 at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2008

BAM! That's what I'm talking about: "You were wrong."
posted by LooseFilter at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2008

Ok, Obama got in some good jabs on Iraq. Crash! Pow!
posted by zardoz at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2008

Can someone smarter than me help me out? Is Obama really "the most left member of the Senate"?

I'm not smarter than you, but in 2004 Kerry was the most liberal person in the senate, in 2000 Gore was the most liberal candidate since McGovern, and in 1992 Clinton was the most liberal candidate ever.

That's where it comes from.
posted by ryoshu at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain needs to learn some manners. Look at him when he's talking to you.
posted by Ugh at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2008

Does not understand the difference between a tactic and a strategy? Ouch. That's going to hurt him with the "I care about the difference between a tactic and a strategy" constituency.
posted by salvia at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2008 [5 favorites]

Let's not forget Paul Wellstone.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2008

Why are my freedoms in Iraq?
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2008

*snore*
posted by sciurus at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2008

"They inform on the bad guys, and peace comes to the country." Oh, and also get blown up.
posted by inigo2 at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2008

So who exactly is this 'Miss Congeniality of the Senate'?

I thought we were having an debate, not a beauty pageant.
posted by rand at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2008

Things are heating up!
posted by Big_B at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2008

Where does that CNN audience reaction come from? Where are they getting that data from?
posted by Quidam at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2008

"Voters watch the debate from Columbus, OH and give their reactions to the responses in real-time."
posted by sciurus at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2008

Does McCain ever say anything other than that the government should cut spending?
posted by peacheater at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2008

So, basically, a sample size of 10?
posted by casaubon at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2008

That's not true.


Asshole.
posted by Drexen at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2008

The Republicans never seem to be quite as happy as the democrats. Hmm.
posted by Adam_S at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2008

Ah. Now i see that.

It seems kind of ridiculous. McCain starts talking: shocker! Republicans react positively! Obama starts talking: shocker! Democrats react positively!
posted by Quidam at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2008

STOP WATCHING THE DEBATE EVERYONE! McCain has already won according to internet ads!
posted by Effigy2000 at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2008

shocker!

Yeah, it's the exceptions I find interesting.
posted by salvia at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2008

XQUZYPHYR: "Not that the CNN "let's try to tell you how to think" line thingie is a fantastic idea"

What would be a fantastic idea is if it just showed the latest post from this thread at the bottom of the screen.
posted by MrBobaFett at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

They've intermarried with Al Qaeda and the Taliban!!
posted by languagehat at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2008

Finally it all makes snese, McCain is Flashman.
posted by drezdn at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

So McCain knows the difference between Afganistan and Pakistan, right? He's just acting like he doesn't to scare up more votes and bumfuzzle the American electorate? Right? Somehow that's better.
posted by penduluum at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2008

Awesome shot! Songs about bombing Iran!!
posted by LooseFilter at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2008

So McCain knows the difference between Afganistan and Pakistan, right?

Yeah, Afghanistan's on the left of Spain, and Pakistan's on the right. In South America.
posted by inigo2 at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

sense
posted by drezdn at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2008

I can't stand how McCain keeps saying "Senator Obama just doesn't understand," can't stand his constant lying, can't stand his rambling stories. UGH.
posted by mothershock at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain just keeps on lying, even though he knows that everyone knows he's lying. It's insane.
posted by dejah420 at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2008

Why is he rambling on about Bosnia and Kosovo?
posted by languagehat at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2008

I was 2 in 1983.
posted by sciurus at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2008

Oh good, more war stories. Tell us about how Teddy Roosevelt used to take you out for cocktails, John. Talk to us more about Alexander the Great; you guys were friends, right?
posted by penduluum at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

So tired of McCain trying to beat the "maverick" drum, ugh.
posted by doublehelix at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2008

Here comes the bracelet.
posted by languagehat at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2008

Dr. Pepper and Captain Morgan is pretty good together...
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2008

What on earth is he talking about?
posted by LooseFilter at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2008

The bracelet?
posted by sciurus at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2008

Oh.
posted by sciurus at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wait, where's the bracelet?
posted by Axle at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2008

OH SNAP BRACELET FIGHT
posted by penduluum at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2008 [8 favorites]

"I've got a bracelet too." HAHAHA! This is surreal.
posted by aclevername at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2008

"I've got a bracelet, too"
posted by Stewriffic at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2008

I HAVE A BRACELET TOO!!!
posted by inigo2 at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2008

I HAZ A BRACELET
posted by The Whelk at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

(Not, unfortunately, a slap-bracelet fight.)
posted by penduluum at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Independents are down with Republicans now -- I don't think they're Dems in disguise.
posted by salvia at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2008

Weird thing: McCain supporters have no personal pictures in twitter.
posted by Memo at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2008

OMG they should make a Precious Moments figurine of McCain...Can't you see him in his little suit, with a flag, and a big head and those big, sad, wierd, tear-drop shaped eyes? and a single tear. It should say "I know what it's like..." On the little base.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2008 [7 favorites]

I'VE TRAVELED TO WAZIRISTAN! HE HASN'T, SO I WIN!
posted by languagehat at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2008

Muddle through. Wheee!
posted by ZakDaddy at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2008

No, I'm the subcommittee chairman. I know what our needs are.

WTF?
posted by salvia at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2008

We will succeed in Afghanistan because I'VE BEEN THERE.
posted by aclevername at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2008 [5 favorites]

Does McCain visit all these places because he doesn't know how to use a computer, which can convey information over great distances?
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2008 [17 favorites]

"We cannot allow a second Holocaust." Uh, OK.
posted by languagehat at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2008

I find it rather rich that McCain keeps ranting about how Obama hasn't sufficiently visited all of these foreign countries when his own running mate didn't even get her passport until last year. /head explodes
posted by gatorae at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

Obama sounds Presidential. McCain sounds like a yapping chihuahua.
posted by matty at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2008

Sanctions on the Iranians. That will work.
posted by ninjew at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008

Existential threat to Israel? Camus and Sartre trained on Tel Aviv?
posted by lumensimus at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008 [16 favorites]

Why does the GOP have such a hard-on for Israel? Seriously.
posted by greenie2600 at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008

THE LEAGUE OF DEMOCRACIES! (isn't that the UN?)
posted by sciurus at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama has GOT TO stop agreeing with McCain on anything, even if it's a small little point.
posted by zardoz at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Uh-oh... he said Holocaust..

"JUST HOOK IT TO MY VEINS!
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

Is anyone else concerned that Obama is not confronting Mccain enough? Mccain keeps attacking Obama with every response, but Obama is only throwing a jab here or there.
posted by Merik at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008

I know. It would be so helpful to have a ticker running so that you could see and keep track of everything he says that's head-explosion-inducing bullshit.
posted by mothershock at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008

I find it rather rich that McCain keeps ranting about how Obama hasn't sufficiently visited all of these foreign countries when his own running mate didn't even get her passport until last year. /head explodes
posted by gatorae at 9:04 PM on September 26 [+] [!]

Too bad Obama doesn't need to mention her name, that'd be a fun fight.
posted by ZakDaddy at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm sorry, did McCain just Godwin the debate?
posted by maqsarian at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain just proposed to create the Justice League Avengers of Truth or something.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2008

Bah, "Obama needs to not mention."
posted by ZakDaddy at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2008

"We cannot allow a second Holocaust."

He's really going out on a limb there. What a maverick.
posted by salvia at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why does the GOP have such a hard-on for Israel? Seriously.

I've always suspected it's because they're less brown than the peoples surrounding them.
posted by mrnutty at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

I noticed that too Merik - but to me it seems that Obama is actually trying to talk about the issues being brought up, while McCain is ONLY throwing jabs without addressing anything.
posted by matty at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2008

@ Merik

Obama has said "that's not true" numerous times so far.

McCain has simply smiled goofily.
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2008

IRANICALLY!
posted by sciurus at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2008

I dunno, McCain is a big liar and all and Obama is a superhero, sure, but trying to look at it dispassionately, Oldy McFibberpants coming off much better than I had expected he would, and Obama not quite as well.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

"Our friends and allies." Close enough for a drink?
posted by ZakDaddy at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2008

Yup, I'm with stav on it.
posted by sciurus at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2008

I was really expecting Obama to wipe the floor with McCain.

So far, that's not happening.
posted by greenie2600 at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2008

"That's a tough one."
posted by inigo2 at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2008

Akma- Ahma- OMIDENIGAD!
posted by languagehat at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Oh, that's fucking cute. The stutter. Nice one, that's presidential of you.
posted by penduluum at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2008

Yeah, so far (on the McCain isn't doing too bad thing).
posted by yhbc at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2008

ACHKC-MIDENIJAD!!
posted by greenie2600 at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2008

Colbert's gonna have a field day with that one.
posted by abcde at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2008

trying to look at it dispassionately, Oldy McFibberpants coming off much better than I had expected he would, and Obama not quite as well.

Where your expectations originally set? That's what happened the past two elections -- people expected Bush to drool all over himself and forget where he was, but he got through without doing so, so he "succeeded".

That's the one thing that worries me about the VP debates, too.
posted by inigo2 at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

PORT-POR-PERESTROIKA!!
posted by greenie2600 at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama needs to fight back against that fucking liar. Our country can't survive four more years of illegal Republican rule.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2008

jeez, it's not like he didnt expect to talk about iran. Maccain should have atleast spent ten minutes memorizing the name
posted by dhruva at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2008

So drunk. I'm not even watching the debate!
posted by purephase at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

This drinking game completely did me in.

It's weird how the debate ends up feeling more like the American Idol finale when you're wasted.
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama's wiping the floor with him on talking with enemies.
posted by languagehat at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Of course McCain doesn't understand how someone could agree to talk to anyone without preconditions -- look at how he's handled his own VP! No media! No questions! Deference!
posted by mothershock at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2008

No, inigo2, its that he is making valid (if unsupported) points, and presenting his position, and Obama's not pounding him down with his own points. They're each making their points.

Shit! Maybe that's the lesson of the whole "debate" thing!
posted by yhbc at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2008

Actual data. This is beautiful.
posted by salvia at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2008

Ha! Spain! Gotcha, Johnny!
posted by zardoz at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama's wiping the floor with him on talking with enemies.

'struth.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2008

OMG!!! he just brought up Spain!!!
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2008

SNAP! Calling McCain out on his Spain mix-up.
posted by porn in the woods at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2008

OH SPAIN SNAP!


from the public-speaker boyfriend "While I disagree with Obama on points, he does seem to be answering questions as opposed to giving a speech."
posted by The Whelk at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2008

Oh, please not with the Wise Old Grampa voice.
posted by ninjew at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

3-inch-wha?
posted by casaubon at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2008

This question is the first real home-run for Obama, in my opinion.
posted by penduluum at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2008

"...talk with a man who called Israel a STINKING CORPSE!!"

There you go again.
posted by languagehat at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2008

ZOMBIE ISRAEL!
posted by sciurus at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2008

Yeah, starvos has it. I can only hope the independents are won over by Obama's bad-assedness.
posted by gofargogo at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2008

What Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand is...

that the McRib is simply a seasonal item. He can't have it anytime he wants - only when McDonald's says so.
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2008 [11 favorites]

I was hoping someone would bring up the Korean Height Disparity -- my single-voter issue of choice.
posted by milquetoast at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2008 [17 favorites]

McCain tonite is sponored by Werther's Originals
posted by Senor Cardgage at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

It's not a total wipe the floor yet, but ye gods, McCain is twitchy and cagey and odd on camera.
posted by The Whelk at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2008

REAGAN REAGAN REAGAN REAGAN
posted by sciurus at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2008

No zingers so far...Obama's being forceful, way more forceful than Gore or Kerry, but he's playing for a tie, which makes sense. If that's how the media reports it tomorrow, then that's good for him and bad for Walnuts. I'm surprised that McCain hasn't been feistier. Come on John, this is getting kinda boring.
posted by Kronoss at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2008

Is McCain capable of speaking without sounding completely condescending?
posted by lullaby at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2008

Has McCain even looked at Obama once?
posted by triggerfinger at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2008

"My friend Doctor Kissinger, who's been my friend for 500 years..."

He keeps emphasizing how old he is.
posted by languagehat at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2008 [7 favorites]

ono! Russia!
posted by rand at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2008

Well that got weird fast.
posted by penduluum at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2008

Man, Obama's facial expressions (or lack thereof) are slipping. He looks like he wants to roll his eyes *so bad*.
posted by aclevername at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow. After I just posted that McCain just let loose, for the first time, with some righteous anger regarding...Kissinger? Really? God this election is getting so weird....
posted by Kronoss at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2008

The tragedy is that if Obama loses this debate, it's because he is being too polite. McCain's angry, dismissive, belittling attitude is probably coming across to the average viewer as being the more powerful and presidential of the two. I'm hoping that people find it off-putting, but I unfortunately don't have that kind of confidence.
posted by gatorae at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

IT'S THE 21st CENTURY BITCHES!
posted by The Whelk at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2008

I'd never make it as a politician...I can't hold in a good eye-roll.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2008

Russia: Marry, fuck, or kill?
posted by almostmanda at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2008 [9 favorites]

Man, Obama's facial expressions (or lack thereof) are slipping. He looks like he wants to roll his eyes *so bad*.

Watching the split-screen, he's definitely given McCain the *wtf*-eye a few times. But he catches himself doing it.
posted by ninjew at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2008

Measured responses aren't going to win this debate.
posted by matty at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2008

Points for "staring in the soul".
posted by yhbc at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2008

He looks like he wants to roll his eyes *so bad*.

Yeah, and the constant blinking started again. I'll have to try that at work.
posted by salvia at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Dick Lugar: worst commencement speech I ever sat through.
posted by sciurus at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama's got to shut down the "Senator Obama just doesn't understand" line.
posted by mothershock at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

Dear BEJESUS if he says "he doesn't understand" one... more... time...
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm hoping that people find it off-putting

Check.
posted by Ugh at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain defends a war criminal advising his campaign. Awesome.
posted by ryoshu at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2008

Grandsons just don't understand.
posted by salvia at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2008

Which eye is the G in?
posted by swift at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2008

PARENTS OBAMA JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND.
posted by sciurus at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama's got to shut down the "Senator Obama just doesn't understand" line.

Totally, and call McCain out on his condescending attitude.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2008

but he's playing for a tie, which makes sense.

No, it doesn't. The proper answer is "humiliating victory."

The average US voter doesn't understand subtlety. They do, however, understand a smackdown. This was Gore's big mistake.

Those who play for a tie deserve to lose.
posted by eriko at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2008

With McCain out of the US traveling to every single country in the world, no wonder the economy went to shit. Good thing he suspended the campaign to fix it.
posted by inigo2 at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

Obama: Russia's actions are unacceptable.

McCain: Obama doesn't understand that Russia's actions are unacceptable.

Me: AAARGH!
posted by JDHarper at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

Is McCain playing Risk?
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

"respects international boundaries.."

Do as we SAY! not as we DO!
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2008

These live ratings are driving me crazy.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2008

I guess my hopes for a non-escalationist Russia policy, by any candidate, are just not to be realized. But McCain is definitely psychotic.
posted by nasreddin at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Get off my lawn, you damn kids!
posted by woodway at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm running a bit behind here, but going back to the preconditions thing, why the hell doesn't Obama say "What the hell is wrong with talking to people? It's called diplomacy! It's how we avoid getting into stupid wars and making hideous mistakes?" He should just directly address him, say "John, tell me, are you more willing to have more young Americans die, or more willing to sit down and talk to someone whom you might not like, or might not agree with, to see if you can come to an agreement?"

Then, the follow up would be about the role of the president as that of a statesman, rather than a bully ready to throw down at a moments notice. Someone who uses diplomacy rather than swagger.

That's just not going to happen, is it?
posted by Ghidorah at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

I despise this competition to be more pro-Georgian and anti-Russian, but it's not going to effect the outcome, so what the hell.
posted by languagehat at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Every response out of McCain is tied to some sort of attack towards Obama.

Obama is spending WAY too much time on defense. It's a shame, cause he's doing a better job than McCain at actually ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS.
posted by matty at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2008

These live ratings are driving me crazy.

Um, change channels?
posted by languagehat at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

right you are, matty. Obama has gotta get ANGRY, quick.
posted by zardoz at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2008

It's so incredibly cringe-worthy to see Obama talking directly to McCain and McCain awkwardly looking ANYWHERE but at Obama. It's like a child refusing to make eye contact with his mother after she's scolded him.
posted by Ugh at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2008

I want a job where I get to lie all the time.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I wish that Obama would say that off-shore drilling is a bridge to nowhere.
posted by gatorae at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Customer Service Representative, Green Eyed Monster.
posted by sciurus at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2008

Why does Obama need to get angry? I like his cool headedness. I would love to see McCain get angry because that means he lost.
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

FINALLY 9/11
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2008

YES. Voting record. Pound the voting record into the ground. Mr. Maverick likes to think he's disagreed with W on everything. I guess it's easier to conceal your positions when you barely show up to vote.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2008

Why does the moderator let McCain filibuster like that?
posted by mothershock at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Holy, AloneOssifer, you're quick.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2008

What the... why is he going on about the 9/11 commission?
posted by languagehat at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2008

Durn, so are you.
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2008

Mr. O, the teacher's pet act doesn't really suit you right now. Let McC dig his own grave by talking over everyone.
posted by subbes at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2008

MrBobaFett... Obama needs to be more aggressive cause my parents (the Bellwethers of America) are only going to remember what McCain attacked Obama about - whether it was true or not.
posted by matty at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain is so full of sh*t -- he voted AGAINST banning waterboarding (aka torture).
posted by tractorfeed at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2008

Mr. McCain's suit jacket doesn't fit him very well.

Apart from that, I'm so biased I can't really judge who's winning.
posted by workerant at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm starting to wish there was orchestra music playing them off...
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2008

It seems like McCain's tactic is to lie and condescend -- so if Obama goes after him for that, Obama doesn't get to answer the questions; if Obama answers the questions, he can't smack down all the lyings.
posted by mothershock at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

OH MY GOD! Maybe if you would talk to him he would understand! I give up.
posted by Ugh at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2008

I'd like to see O attack the points from the word go. I like his composure, but he could be leaping on these. The 9/11 response was good, though.

Restore standing in the world. Nice.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama is spending WAY too much time on defense.

All Obama has to do is appear presidential and deflect McCain's attacks adequately, which I think he's done. McCain didn't deliver any line that will be repeated ad nauseum on cable news over the weekend.

McCain's Putin/KGB line was good, but no one is currently giving a shit about Russia right now thanks to all those investment bankers, so I don't think that will stick.
posted by Kronoss at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

"All the fragile sacrifice that we've made"? Wha?
posted by languagehat at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2008

We get it, you think he doesn't understand.
posted by ninjew at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama just don't understand

I remember one year / obama took me school shopping....
posted by salvia at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

Yeah, totally, mothershock.

Isn't that pretty much the Republican strategy in every venue at all times.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama didn't have to tear McCain's throat out here. The saying "McCain is right," or "I give McCain credit," he's being a gracious winner, looks more presidential, less ornery, projects strength. McCain is toast.
posted by bukharin at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2008

You know, we who've spent all the blood and treasure? Trust us with all the blood and treasure.
posted by milquetoast at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2008 [7 favorites]

Or is that tactic, I forget the difference.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2008

"I'VE TRAVELED TO WAZIRISTAN! HE HASN'T, SO I WIN!"

We thought the Waziri were Tarzan's people, and thus figments of Edgar Rice Burroughs's imagination. Were we mistaken?
posted by An Infinity Of Monkeys at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain's tie was a horrible choice for television.
posted by emelenjr at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2008

I didn't notice the Moire effect with the tie, though.
posted by sciurus at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2008

mothershock, Obama should sacrifice one or two questions to point out and condemn the lying and condescention.

AND FOR GOODNESS SAKE, OBAMA STOP TELLING MCCAIN THAT HE IS RIGHT!!!!
posted by Merik at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain's tie was a horrible choice for television.
posted by emelenjr at 7:32 PM on September 26 [+] [!]

THAT'S what's giving me a headache!!!!
posted by matty at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2008

"Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand" is the new "It's hard work."
posted by the other side at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain's tie was a horrible choice for television.

Wear knee-length socks.

Well, he's got that down.
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain is stammering, repeating himself, not looking presidential in his last statement.
posted by languagehat at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2008

This administration ... is clinging to a belief that the surge hasn't succeeded?
posted by penduluum at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2008

OH. Ignore the issue and go after O??
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama is obviously the better man and the clearer thinker. What worries me is that to a large percentage of the American populace, it seems like that doesn't matter as much as the bloodsport aspect of it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain has discovered Obama's Achilles' heel: he's too much like Bush.
posted by abcde at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2008

Customer Service Representative

YOU HAVE INSULTED MY HONOR SIR AND I AM DEEPLY OFFENDED
posted by maqsarian at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama is also the only one looking directly into the camera.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2008

That's great, McC. Let's play Russian roulette with Iraq -- oh look, an empty chamber! I think I'll ride that tenuous success through the entire fricking debate.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2008

It's after McCain's bedtime, folks.
posted by bukharin at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm sorry, maqsarian, let me escalate your issue to my superior. ;)
posted by sciurus at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2008

You drink!
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2008

POW! 5 SHOTS!
posted by Merik at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2008

SAD VET'RAN IS SAD. :(
posted by milquetoast at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

OOOOOOO POW~! KEGSTAND!!!!
posted by notsnot at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

It's after McCain's bedtime, folks.

After this drinking game... it's mine also.
posted by AloneOssifer at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

"When I came home from prison..."

THERE IT IS!

*drinks*
posted by languagehat at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

And..... cue POW!!!!!!!!!!
posted by mothershock at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

THERE SHE POWS!
posted by educatedslacker at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

Campaign CLICHE-FEST
posted by aclevername at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

Normalization of relations! Good night everybody! Tip your moderators!
posted by penduluum at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

Oh for FUCK'S sake, WE FUCKIN KNOW you were a POW. We.. what's that word? UNDERSTAND.
posted by ninjew at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

The positive content from O is good here but I would have enjoyed a "not going to dignify" rejoinder before going into it.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

I was told there would be a debate.
posted by TwelveTwo at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

5 shots- finishing half abomber of Arrogant Bastard, right?
posted by notsnot at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2008

Wait, McCain was in prison? I did not know that.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2008

'When I came home from prison"! I KNEW he couldn't go the entire debate without mentioning it!

/yes, I drank
posted by workerant at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2008

There's the POW!

I got BINGO!
posted by lekvar at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Kiss the wives!
posted by bukharin at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2008

And that's the show!
posted by billypilgrim at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2008

Don't we say "amen" afterward?
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2008

I think I need to start building my bunker in my backyard. I mean, all those rogue states are going to start lobbing nuclear missiles into the country any minute.
posted by rand at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2008

The awkward hands out, where do I go pose just before leaving the stage, is it just me, or did that have a Godzilla-esque stance to it? Or like a "Gentle Ben, no!" feeling?
posted by Ghidorah at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ahh Anderson Cooper, I remember him from Channel One when I was in middle school.
posted by sciurus at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

The consensus here was that Senator McCain looked like a Senator, but Senator Obama looked like a President.
posted by An Infinity Of Monkeys at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2008 [9 favorites]

Anderson Cooper was on Channel One?
posted by Quidam at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2008

What was the deal with McCain twice saying that nobody thinks he's Miss Congeniality of the Senate?

Was he trying to remind people that he picked a running mate who was Miss Congeniality?
posted by Flunkie at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama sounded pretty good considering how little he understands.
posted by spiderwire at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2008

Media... ready... set... spin!

CNN: John McCain and Barack Obama squared off in their first debate tonight, with Obama calling for a reevaluation of the U.S. approach to Russia and McCain saying Obama responded naively to Russia's invasion of neighboring Georgia.

O carried himself well, but the excerpts are going to be full of these little McCain barbs.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2008

Diane Sawyer looks like she needs a drink. Seriously, she and Charlie have a very familiar stare, the stare of someone of waiting for the clock to hit 5. And for the little coke imp with the puffy hair to shut up. Dear god.
posted by The Whelk at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2008

My God, not Bill Bennett.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2008

Yeah, Flunkie, he totally was--he even referred to Palin as a fellow maverick not long after the second Miss Congeniality line.

Well, that or he was thinking about Sandra Bullock.
posted by box at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2008

Of COURSE the media is now going to spin for McCain.
posted by mothershock at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2008

Ok, here's my take, now that it's over. McCain is an asshole. He always included an attack on Obama with every answer he gave. He attacked, attacked, attacked. He never complimented Obama. He used his assholery to good effect.

Obama made an number of attacks, but he agreed with McCain a number of times, and complimented him at least once. Attacked, agreed, attacked, attacked, agreed, attacked, attacked, complimented.

McCain is an asshole, and I didn't agree with what he said, but he didn't appear weak. One might even say he won, and I couldn't argue. Obama wasn't weak--he answered the questions asked far better than McCain--but Obama just wasn't angry enough. I want to hear the Obama from his Democratic nomination acceptance speech, his "ENOUGH!" voice. He's angling for the cool, calm approach, but he's gotta let at least some selective anger come out for the remaining debates.

That said, I can't wait to see Joe Biden tear Sarah Palin to shreds.
posted by zardoz at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2008

I thought it was pretty odd that McCain kept fishing for laffs after Jim Lehrer stated that the audience was to remain quiet. Bad strategy, Johnny.
posted by lekvar at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2008

See, Bill Bennett says "How many times did Obama say 'John McCain is right'?" Goddammit, he shouldn't have kept doing that. Bad strategy.
posted by languagehat at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Seriously, is their a word for "maintaining the least amount of professional decency while trying to make someone's head explode with your mind?"

Cause I saw a lot of that tonight.
posted by The Whelk at 7:46 PM on September 26, 2008

What Senator Obama doesn't understand is that I'm cold and there are wolves after me.
posted by fleetmouse at 7:46 PM on September 26, 2008 [18 favorites]

"more rhetoric on the Obama side"?

Is she sniffing glue? TERRIBLE TERRIBLE TOXIC GLUE?!

I need another drink.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2008

Is Biden on any of the channels giving a reaction?
posted by languagehat at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2008

The outcome of the debate seems to be a wash. Obama made his points, McCain made his. Partisans on both sides will view their candidate as coming out on top.

One thing is for certain: Obama didn't steamroll over McCain, despite the myriad comments and threads recently claiming how inept McCain supposedly is.
posted by jsonic at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2008

Re: Biden and Palin debate -- my husband's theory is that there will be no debate, because just before the debate happens, her daughter will "lose" the "baby" (because of the terrible sexist liberal media), and Palin will have to drop out. So Biden will debate Romney.
posted by mothershock at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

nitsuj,

Thank-you. Sobriety abolished. Mission accomplished.
posted by JimmyJames at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2008

languagehat: I believe Biden is going to be on MSNBC soon; I think that's what Keith Olbermann said right before the debate.
posted by gatorae at 7:50 PM on September 26, 2008

They just promised him on CBS.
posted by languagehat at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2008

Yup, here he is now with Couric.
posted by languagehat at 7:52 PM on September 26, 2008

???!!! Holy hell. Democrat blogger guy says "McCain didn't bring up the POW thing tonight -- I thought for sure he would." Playing solitaire, maybe? Argggrhrarrhghghghghgh.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:52 PM on September 26, 2008

REAGAN REAGAN REAGAN REAGAN

I made him out of clay...
posted by Manhasset at 7:52 PM on September 26, 2008 [6 favorites]

I don't know. McCain came off fairly inept to me, and as an asshole. Maybe I don't want an asshole for President. I want a cool headed intellectual.
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:54 PM on September 26, 2008

That "agree with McCain" thing is getting some serious traction.
posted by penduluum at 7:54 PM on September 26, 2008

This after-debate coverage is just a clip show!
posted by TwelveTwo at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2008

If he agrees with McCain, we could say McCain agrees with Obama.
posted by TwelveTwo at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2008

And here's the "McCain is right" ad. Fuckers.
posted by mothershock at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2008

mothershock: "And here's the "McCain is right" ad. Fuckers."

Whoa, that's fast.
posted by Memo at 7:58 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I read they actually released it before the debate was even officially over.
posted by mothershock at 7:59 PM on September 26, 2008

That's ... actually kind of stunning.
posted by penduluum at 7:59 PM on September 26, 2008

Nice, so because Obama can recognize that McCain isn't always constantly wrong in all things, he is not fit to lead? What is their logic?
posted by MrBobaFett at 8:00 PM on September 26, 2008

First impressions

Not good for Obama

A lot of Americans just need an excuse not to vote for Obama, McCain gave them that excuse.

Palin v Biden will not happen, she'll pull out and the GOP can then hammer the experience thing into the ground.

Experience Experience Experience is the new mantra
"Obama doesn't understand".
posted by fullerine at 8:00 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

What is their logic?

Ahaha
posted by TwelveTwo at 8:00 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

Also, how can McCain approve this message if this message was put out while he was still on stage partaking in a debate?
posted by MrBobaFett at 8:01 PM on September 26, 2008

Nice, so because Obama can recognize that McCain isn't always constantly wrong in all things, he is not fit to lead? What is their logic?

I believe the logic is IF OBAMA LOVES MCCAIN SO MUCH WHY DON'T HE MARRY HIM
posted by Flunkie at 8:01 PM on September 26, 2008 [5 favorites]

So does Obama still "not understand" the issues that he says McCain is right? Or does he only not understand when he disagrees with you?

Which is it?
posted by aclevername at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2008

Is Barack Obama ready to lead? No, we'd much rather have a guy who supports an idea if he's the only one who thought of it.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:03 PM on September 26, 2008

That fits in nicely with their other campaign strategies: my dog ate my homework, I'm rubber/you're glue, I know you are but what am I, neener neener neener....
posted by mothershock at 8:03 PM on September 26, 2008

POW! POW-POW-POW!
posted by Artw at 8:04 PM on September 26, 2008

"Obama doesn't understand" two or three times might have made the point. "Obama doesn't understand" 20 times starts to sound like a crotchety old man.

After McCain's bad week, I don't know that tonight's spin can salvage his campaign.
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 8:04 PM on September 26, 2008

I believe the logic is IF OBAMA LOVES MCCAIN SO MUCH WHY DON'T HE MARRY HIM

Proposition 8?
posted by sara is disenchanted at 8:04 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

The whole agreeing with McCain is a standard play for the centre ground. He has his base solidly behind him, he won't be hurt there. How does it hurt him with independents?
posted by topynate at 8:05 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

After McCain's bad week, I don't know that tonight's spin can salvage his campaign.

I'm afraid that's EXACTLY what happens -- what a bad week! and yet he was able to make all those snide remarks at the debate! he's really on his toes! go McCain!
posted by mothershock at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2008

That "agree with McCain" thing is getting some serious traction.

If a republican agrees with a democrat, (s)he is bipartisan.
If a democrat agrees with a republican, (s)he is weak.
posted by gatorae at 8:07 PM on September 26, 2008 [9 favorites]

It's a draw. Obama comes across as a cold fish who sticks to the script when he should be winging it. McCain comes across as a liar, too dumb to know not to snicker at his own fibs. Both looked real bad. So, yeah, tie - McCain probably had what Americans wanted to hear, but his manner and presentation meant that they couldn't trust him. The Obamaton needs to let his Chi-town accent out to play, and show a lot more of his gentle humor. A folksy and charming Obama would have completely pwnd Smirky McChuckles.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:07 PM on September 26, 2008

fullerine, i'm with you. I was very sorry to see Obama get taken to the cleaners on the experience thing. He was ahead of the game during the first 10 minutes while they were focused on the economy, but for most of it, John was doing a better job of (a) packaging his bullshit mischaracterizations of his record into nice little single-serving packages, and (b) creating doubt about his opponent.

Obama is clearly a smarter guy with a more strategic vision for the country, but he's got to work on his message delivery.

In other news, I am far too sober to be writing in this thread, apparently.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2008

How does it hurt him with independents?

Well, mediacurves.com appears to be down, but fivethirtyeight.com is saying that independents on MediaCurves gave the debate to Obama 61-39. So maybe it doesn't at all. Although without being able to see their data, I don't know how much to trust those numbers.
posted by penduluum at 8:09 PM on September 26, 2008

Maybe I've just seen too many stump speeches on TV, but McCain's repeated reliance on his tired old bon mots really got on my nerves.

"I've never been elected Ms. Congeniality in the Senate, I don't know why."

"We're spending millions to study the DNA of bears, I don't know if that's a criminal issue or a paternal one."

"I'll take this pen, I'll make them famous, you'll know their names."

And they especially fell flat when the audience was barred from responding in any noticeable way.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:09 PM on September 26, 2008

"Crime... Boy, I Don't Know..."
posted by Tenuki at 8:11 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

The "Senator Obama doesn't understand" thing was so condescending. If someone disagrees with you you have to address the points of contention, not tell them "oh well, it's all above your head".

Though I'll be tempted to give Biden a pass for saying it to Palin. Because he'll be right.
posted by orange swan at 8:13 PM on September 26, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin is going to implode. They can't possibly let her debate.

Though obviously it couldn't and wouldn't happen, but a Clinton/Palin debate would have been brutality incarnate. Sweet, sweet brutality. Biden will have to keep the gloves on, to some extent.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:13 PM on September 26, 2008

First impressions
Not good for Obama

I knew before this debate even started that it would spin for a draw or spin for McCain, simply because he didn't literally pass out or die on stage. Yay, McCain, he survived the debate. But this is the end of a very, very bad week for McCain and Palin. The mainstream media has turned--they're finally, finally, after eight years, demanding answers from their candidates. Even people who don't follow politics (with the exception of "the base") know that Palin is an idiot and McCain pulled a "dog ate my homework" this week. This debate wasn't a home run for Obama, but Obama held his own, and I think this week was the start of McCain's downward grade toward a loss in November.
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 8:16 PM on September 26, 2008

So are there any 'completely' independent, non-partisan organizations or websites one can turn to to see what the numbers are, after this debate?

Someone mentioned FiveThirtyEight.com and MediaCurves.com. Are these two the best of what's out there?
posted by sk381 at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2008

Switched over to Family Guy now, and it's the perfect episode.

REAGAN SMASH, REAGAN SMASH
posted by inigo2 at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2008

So, I guess we can see that metafilter is terrible at liveblogging. What a craphole of a thread.

Let me add to it...

Here's the transcript to review again.


Neither guy was a dominant winner, but I think McCain certainly got some good points in. Obama wouldn't say that he'd cut any specific thing due to this $700 billion bailout. Obama was successfully attacked, and didn't defend, him saying that knowing then what he knows now, he'd still be anti surge, even though he called it successful beyond our expectations. John McCain apparently goes to every country out there -- He's seriously been to Tblisi? McCain certainly did a good job of presenting himself as mavricky and bipartisan, a better job than Obama did, even if he hasn't been so mavricky bipartisan in actuality in the past 8 years. I don't think anyone like earmarks, but Obama's size comparison to the McCain tax cut certainly came across well I think. I'm curious to hear more details about the "$700 Billion we send overseas every year to countries that don't like us very much" that McCain described.
posted by garlic at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2008

Perhaps because I listened to the debates on the radio, it really seemed like Obama stuttered and hesitated in his many deferential responses to McCain, who took the gift Obama handed him to go into attack dog / smirk mode. I'm not voting for McCain but if Obama wants to earn my vote he better start fighting back against these fucking bullies.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:19 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

I really wish someone would stand up for the bears, by the way. Mocking science? Not cool.
posted by topynate at 8:19 PM on September 26, 2008 [7 favorites]

OK ... I was channel surfing ...

*someone* said that the Obama people released 21 fact checking emails during the debate ... and McCain people also released some . Can someone link to those??

There were a LOT of things ('facts') thrown out that just pissed me off.

I should have been drinking, eh?
posted by Surfurrus at 8:19 PM on September 26, 2008

Tenuki -- that quote passed through my mind more than once during this debate.
posted by aclevername at 8:20 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm still struggling to realize that McCain said he wants to solve (win against!) this epic financial crisis by freezing spending except for the military, veterans and a few vital areas.
posted by dnial at 8:21 PM on September 26, 2008

> Obama people released 21 fact checking emails during the debate

This what you mean?
posted by dhruva at 8:24 PM on September 26, 2008

Thanks, dhruva ... but I think the blog on Obama's site has a running list of the fact-checks they did during the debate. Hope they release a full list to summarize it all.
posted by Surfurrus at 8:30 PM on September 26, 2008

One thing is for certain: Obama didn't steamroll over McCain, despite the myriad comments and threads recently claiming how inept McCain supposedly is.

Realistically, Obama was never going to unhorse McCain in one debate. Forget everything that's happened this month, let alone this last week, and think back to the primaries: Obama's debates with Clinton didn't resolve anything, while McCain's performance during the Republican battles royale helped distinguish him from the other candidates. (Here he is deflating Romney's campaign with a jab at his inconsistency, for example. ) Obama isn't as good a debater as he is an orator because the time limit doesn't favor his nuanced civility, while McCain is relatively good at the form because it plays to his insistent pugnacity. Given all this, tonight played out pretty much as you might expect, with Obama the better on issues and carriage, and McCain racking up points for patriotism and attitude; a wash.

But those reasonable expectations were muddled by McCain's idiocy this past week. For all that his grab at moral authority failed, the lowering of expectations benefited him tonight: "Obama's going to roll right over this asshole!" He didn't, and so McCain will claim a victory.

But remember: there are more debates to come, and Obama is very, very good at rolling with the punches, and then throwing some of his own. An early victory through aggression and force may come to nothing against smart and flexible retaliation - that's one of the lessons of Iraq, after all.
posted by Iridic at 8:36 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Speaking as someone in the tank for Obama, I think the groundwork has been laid for the domestic policy debate to be more difficult for him than might have been expected.

By the next debate, there will presumably be some sort of bailout approved. Whatever it is, there will be a frigging huge number attached to it, and that number will be on everyone's mind. Because of that, I'm afraid that McCain can run on a platform promising virtually nothing other than spending less money.

Obama's proposals on health care and energy independence may be much better longer term than McCain's, but it'll be easy to paint them as just too expensive right now. That's why I was disappointed in Obama's answer to the "what will you give up because of the economic crisis" question. It could easily come across as unrealistic in the face of $BIGASSBAILOUT in a few weeks.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:36 PM on September 26, 2008

If a republican agrees with a democrat, (s)he is bipartisan.
If a democrat agrees with a republican, (s)he is weak.

Ditto re: diplomacy.

"You don't do that. You don't say that out loud. If you have to do things, you have to do things. And you work with the Pakistani government."
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:37 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm still struggling to realize that McCain said he wants to solve (win against!) this epic financial crisis by freezing spending except for the military, veterans and a few vital areas.

Can someone explain to me why veteran's benefits is critical enough to make the "immune to spending freeze" list? I mean, obviously it's not insignificant, but there's lots of items in the budget that are important that wouldn't make that list.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 8:43 PM on September 26, 2008

Anybody have an mp3? I've got a long train ride ahead of me tonight...
posted by msbrauer at 8:45 PM on September 26, 2008

Uh, hello? This was the Foreign Policy debate, the one where McCain was supposed to wipe up the floor with Obama because of all his experience, blahblahblah.

Also, after a "bad week" a tie regains no ground.

So, based on Expectations, by not 'knocking out' Obama, McCain falls farther behind.

And this, the first of three debates, with five weeks left in the campaign, and while building a lead, was the right time for Obama to hold back... look a little more like a Kerry or Dukakis than he 'should'. If the O-man is capable of a 'knockout punch' (which nobody really knows), this was the wrong time to try it.

And the Press is getting more accustomed every day to REAL Fact Checking, and when the facts and the lies sink in, it'll take longer for the full effect of everything that happened tonight to reveal itself.

Yes, it's still uphill for Barack Obama (even if he has regained the lead in most polls), but he did not move backwards tonight.

And that's my spin. I'm Getting Dizzy.
posted by wendell at 8:46 PM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

Spaceman_spiff, you just don't understand. You're showing your naiivite. Maverick, maverick, POW.
posted by The Loch Ness Monster at 8:48 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Can someone explain to me why veteran's benefits is critical enough to make the "immune to spending freeze" list? I mean, obviously it's not insignificant, but there's lots of items in the budget that are important that wouldn't make that list.

McCain is probably trying to court the military vote here by offering them a sop.

That, or maybe he genuinely cares that half the homeless men in the U.S. are vets.

But I'm betting on the former.
posted by orange swan at 8:50 PM on September 26, 2008

Obama won, simply by being able to go toe to toe with McCain and hold his own. McCain needed to land a knockout shot and was simply unable.

Still, Obama could have better. He came across as a petulant child at times and too angry. That's all fixable though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:52 PM on September 26, 2008

This is probably something I should know after many years of lurking at this site, but is there a MeFi IRC channel? Seems like that would be a better venue for snarking during the debates.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 8:59 PM on September 26, 2008

via the WaPo debate factchecker:

"McCain seriously mistated his vote concerning the marines in Lebanon. He said that when he went into Congress in 1983, he voted against deploying them in Beirut. The Marines went in Lebanon in 1982, before McCain came to Congress. The vote came up a year into their deployment, when the Marines had already suffered 54 casualties. What McCain voted against was a measure to invoke the War Powers Act and to authorize the deployment of U.S. Marines in Lebanon for an additional 18 months. The measure passed 270-161, with 26 other Republicans (including McCain) and 134 Democrats voting against it."
posted by p3t3 at 9:08 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I thought it was a pretty smart debate - nothing too dumb, nothing too over the head.

My dad though made the note that Obama needs to come out and say to McCain: "You are a liar, and you are lying to the American people" in those exact words, in a very sharp tone, in response to McCain's untrue statements about Obama. Anything else will not be effective enough, such as his "that is not true" bit.

Obama, there comes a time where you got to stop playing nice and get to throwing dirt. DO IT!!!
posted by JoeXIII007 at 9:09 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I know everyone likes to attack Palin for not traveling more, but what good is traveling if you can't see anything? All of McCain's trips are overpriced vacation packages to the best hotels in the world, the best restaurants, and uber-secure armed convoy rides through town. What exactly did he see in Pakistan or in Georgia? Did the 60 dollar prime rib in the Marriott really open his eyes to the political situation on the ground?

Honestly, are people buying this crap? I understand he meets with high level people, but the way he makes it sound its like he goes on a J. Peterman-esque voyage through slums and temples teaching orphans, playing cards with warlords, and befriending stray animals.

He's just doing his job and frankly he doesnt do that too well either.
posted by damn dirty ape at 9:15 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

But remember: there are more debates to come, and Obama is very, very good at rolling with the punches, and then throwing some of his own. An early victory through aggression and force may come to nothing against smart and flexible retaliation - that's one of the lessons of Iraq, after all.

So you're saying that McCain is like the brave and honorable American soldiers who are sacrificing their lives for freedom, and Obama is like the cowardly insurgents hiding and springing forth from rat-holes, spilling American blood? That's a good analogy.
posted by fleetmouse at 9:20 PM on September 26, 2008

I listened to the debate on NPR and I'll have to say that as far as delivery goes, McCain had it all over Obama.

As far as saying things that weren't based in fact, McCain was ahead on that, too.

Unfortunately, Joe Sixpack probably doesn't know that part of it and the media he utilizes won't point it out.

Obama has got to do a whole lot better in the next debate is all I have to say.
posted by leftcoastbob at 9:35 PM on September 26, 2008

leftcoastbob, it may be a nixon/kennedy thing. I watched on tv, and I thought McCain alternated between looking tired and looking full of contempt. He looked, well, like an angry old man. He made a joke about Eisenhower- he was in office when my MOTHER was born, and she's in her fifties! He mentioned joining the senate in 1983 and my first thought was "wow, I was four then." He was looking his age and his words didn't doing a lot to downplay it.

I'm not thrilled with how the debate went, I think Obama needs to find his inner asshole, and quick, but I don't think people who watched on TV will be so quick to go for McCain.
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:44 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

OK. Gauging by the remarkably centrist fark-o-meter, the debate went decidedly for Obama. The thread snark and demotivator p-chops are almost all directed toward McCain, and the "Oh, Snaps!" were almost all reserved for Obama. We were looking for oratory flair. Mainstream America was looking for someone to get told. McCain was there to give the set up lines, to front like he always fronts, and then Obama was always right there to tell him. TOLD! Oh, snap!

This informs me that I need to more finely tune my ohsnappameter. I clearly need to watch more Divorce Court to divine the will of the American voter. Ah, I would be bitter, but hey, institutional idiocy is finally swinging our way for once. Tall and slender and looks David Bowie good in a suit has got to help, too.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:48 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I intended more of an abstract analogy, fleetmouse, alluding to Lehrer's question of "the lessons of Iraq" and reflecting my feelings that McCain never learned anything from either the Iraq or the Vietnam wars. It's been a long day, and I'm afraid that I didn't think through to the connotations of the comparison; I meant to liken McCain and his overmastering fondness for force to Bush, rather than to the men Bush sent to die. And I didn't mean to link anybody to terrorism or insurgence. It was a really bad analogy, and I'm sorry for it.
posted by Iridic at 9:51 PM on September 26, 2008

I think Obama won this debate, not by a large margin, but there's three debates, he doesn't need a large margin.

The reason why? Overall strategy. Obama's messag since he launched his campaign has been "I'm the best guy because I offer something new. Hope, change, and better judgement" Character = Hope, Domestic = Change, and Foriegn Policy = Judgement.

He has not deviated from that message, and it has slowly and steadily rewarded him all along. So far the attacks against him have been about everything but his core message. He has yet to commit a major gaffe that undermines this message. And when he had his opening tonight, he made that argument. I have better judgement. McCain didn't effectively counter him on it at all.

McCain did not strongly make a case for his main selling point "I'm a Maverick", and While Obama could have done a much better job of tying him to bush. He was at least in the general area.

McCain needs a big Maverick moment, and he needs to wound Obama on Hope, Change, or Judgement.

He didn't get it done tonight, so I give the edge to Obama.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:58 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Tall and slender and looks David Bowie good in a suit has got to help, too.

Yeah... I hate to be so trivial when there's so much at stake, but Obama did look just so sharp in that black suit.
posted by orange swan at 10:09 PM on September 26, 2008

Can you actually call *yourself* a maverick? That seems really wrong.
posted by Artw at 10:19 PM on September 26, 2008

The thing is, I thought John Kerry wiped the floor with Bush in the 2004 debates--just totally K.O.'ed the dumbass, but plenty of people thought the complete opposite, that Bush won hands down.

Debates are a real Rorschach test.
posted by zardoz at 10:21 PM on September 26, 2008

Mainstream America was looking for someone to get told.

I had that same thought watching the "independent" trendline. At a couple of the points where Obama forcefully set the record straight, it went way up.
posted by salvia at 10:21 PM on September 26, 2008

McCain did not strongly make a case for his main selling point "I'm a Maverick"

Oh please. You're making it sound like the only reasons he gives for why we should vote for him are completely trivial, meaningless, and surface-deep.

You're totally ignoring the fact that he wasn't elected Miss Congeniality of the Senate.

And that he's a maverick.
posted by Flunkie at 10:22 PM on September 26, 2008

Can you actually call *yourself* a maverick? That seems really wrong.

My comment on that was "I wouldn't trust anyone who calls themselves a maverick." That's one of those thing other people bestow upon you; it loses it's meaning if you use it on yourself. It's disingenuous, and I think that came across.
posted by Caduceus at 10:22 PM on September 26, 2008

I should rephrase that. I hope it came across. I hope that everyone who's not the conservative base found it as disingenuous as I did.
posted by Caduceus at 10:25 PM on September 26, 2008

You're totally ignoring the fact that he wasn't elected Miss Congeniality of the Senate.
Why did he keep saying that? Did he want to reinforce that his running mate was, in fact, Miss congeniality of a beauty pageant? Is that a good thing to bring up twice when she's already getting flack for being a twinkie from all but the most devoted supporters?

and yeah, calling yourself a maverick is lame. it's like bragging about how cool you are. if you have to be the one to tell people the odds are it's just not true.
posted by Kellydamnit at 10:26 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

it's like bragging about how cool you are. if you have to be the one to tell people the odds are it's just not true.

That reminds me of the #1 rule of outdoor advertising. If you spell something out publically chances are you arent that thing. Honest Larry's Used Cars arent run by an honest guy. A sign proclaiming the fluffiest waffles in town is probably lying to you. Let others sing your praises.
posted by damn dirty ape at 10:32 PM on September 26, 2008

I read a lot of history, so I recognized a lot of McCain's references ("ooh, Churchill!"), but I think it may have made him seem too mired in the past. I enjoyed the stories on one level, but Eisenhower, Alexander the Great, Kissinger? He loves Reagan and half the electorate wasn't alive when Reagan was elected.

Obama missed a couple of opportunities. The "most liberal" tag is something they stick on the Democratic nominee every election, so it's BS. McCain brought up his "zinger" about beaver DNA, but Palin ask for about the same about of money to study seal DNA.

Most of the polls I've seen so far say Obama won; I thought it was closer to a tie, but that means a win for Obama since he passed the "presidential" test and the debate was on McCain's strongest ground.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:45 PM on September 26, 2008

Also, McCain kept saying Obama was naive, but never really proved it, IMO.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:47 PM on September 26, 2008

Henry Kissinger is, I believe, older than John McCain. Older than time, probably.
posted by Artw at 11:15 PM on September 26, 2008

Henry Kissinger is, I believe, older than John McCain. Older than time, probably.

Wait. Henry Kissinger is Yog-Sothoth?
posted by Caduceus at 11:36 PM on September 26, 2008

Maybe Azathoth.
posted by Tenuki at 11:46 PM on September 26, 2008

Avatar of nylarhotep.
posted by Artw at 11:50 PM on September 26, 2008

My friends, you'll be pleased to know I'm a fiscal conservative.
posted by Effigy2000 at 12:06 AM on September 27, 2008 [4 favorites]

For what it's worth, Time believes Obama won.

Also important: Fact checking the presidential debate. SPOILER: Both candidates stretched the truth.

I will say that Obama came into this debate with a growing lead over McCain in the polls, and as it seems McCain didn't land any solid blows, that lead should remain pretty stable. But Obama ought to be a little less, shall we say, reserved in his responses to McCain. I admire Obama's unflappability and all, but when Gramps throws his cane at you, it's a lot more impressive to catch it and break it over your knee than to duck.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:10 AM on September 27, 2008 [6 favorites]

For what it's worth, Time believes Obama won.

Also important: Fact checking the presidential debate. SPOILER: Both candidates stretched the truth.

Time has been covering this campaign with a somewhat pro-Obama slant (unless I'm missing something), while the AP (the factcheck link above) seems to have had the opposite slant towards McCain a number of times. It's interesting to see how, one by one, MSM stalwarts are slowly polarizing one way or the other.
posted by zardoz at 1:38 AM on September 27, 2008

"Can you actually call *yourself* a maverick? That seems really wrong."

Neighborhoodies? "Maverick" separated by a zipper. MAV-ERICK. I'd buy one.
posted by sharksandwich at 2:26 AM on September 27, 2008

For what it's worth, Time believes Obama won.

Time has been covering this campaign with a somewhat pro-Obama slant

It's not just Time that thinks Obama won this debate. People, too. Not People Magazine, but, um, people. Every focus group/poll that I've seen -- and I've seen several -- has had Obama winning this debate handily, including among self-described independents and uncommitted voters.

Thankfully, after eight years of seeing exactly what Republican rule does to this country, people, like reality, have a liberal bias.
posted by Flunkie at 6:36 AM on September 27, 2008

Is it time to come up with drinking games for the vice-presidential debates?

A cosmopolitan for every time Biden gets called elite.
Yukon Jack straight every time you catch yourself wondering if English is Palin's native language.
posted by Killick at 7:03 AM on September 27, 2008

I thought it was interesting that Biden was all over the news channels after the debate, blasting McCain, while Palin was nowhere to be seen. Wolf Blitzer even had to explain that it wasn't the Liberal Media keeping her off the air; the McCain campaign wouldn't let them talk to her.
posted by EarBucket at 7:45 AM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wait. Henry Kissinger is Yog-Sothoth?

If you listen closely, you can hear the despair of the limitless vacuum of the universe in the deepest caverns of forgotten time where his voice originates.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:47 AM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

At about 1:10:50 in this video, McCain appears to mutter "horseshit" under his breath when Obama calls him out on Spain.
posted by EarBucket at 7:50 AM on September 27, 2008

A cosmopolitan for every time Biden gets called elite.
Yukon Jack straight every time you catch yourself wondering if English is Palin's native language.

Sounds like the recipe for a monstrous hangover.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:51 AM on September 27, 2008

EarBucket: Yes!
posted by mothershock at 7:53 AM on September 27, 2008

Heh. I wonder if that's going to get any traction. The main narrative that seems to be shaping up in the media so far is McCain refusing to look at Obama. If the story that comes out of the debate is McCain as crotchety old bastard, it's not going to help him at all.
posted by EarBucket at 7:57 AM on September 27, 2008

"I buried Paul."

Seriously, it doesn't seem clear enough to say he said anything. People will undoubtedly hear what they want to hear.
posted by yhbc at 7:58 AM on September 27, 2008

Can someone explain to me why veteran's benefits is critical enough to make the "immune to spending freeze" list?

I'm going to guess because it makes you look like a giant asshole to not give veterans their benefits after they just fought the war you sent them to fight.

So, courting the military vote I guess.
posted by lullaby at 8:03 AM on September 27, 2008

Regarding "horseshit", Keith Olbermann says:

It was "course not, course not" -- with his sibilant "s" it sounds like "coursh not, coursh not" -- I heard it live, wearing an ear plug, and I have a pretty good ear.

It sounded like "horseshit" to me (I noticed it live in real time and was surprised by it), but I'm not going to pretend I'm anywhere near certain.
posted by Flunkie at 8:04 AM on September 27, 2008

I remember at the time thinking he said "course not". But it really does sound a lot like "horseshit" on my laptop. Story's a non-starter, though.
posted by penduluum at 8:10 AM on September 27, 2008

OK. If Olbermann's not going to take umbrage, nobody will.
posted by EarBucket at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

I heard the "horseshit" comment as "of course" during the debate. On watching the replay, it now sounds like he may have actually said, "Of course she is... of course she is" ("She" being Spain, aligned with us and a NATO ally, respectively).
posted by Balonious Assault at 8:18 AM on September 27, 2008

My favorite line from McCain, "As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen."

I think McCain did a lot better than expected given his recent bouts with insanity. Obama did great given the limited format.

I strongly disagree with everyone who advises that Obama should become something he isn't simply to score points in a debate.
posted by effwerd at 8:36 AM on September 27, 2008 [5 favorites]

Can you actually call *yourself* a maverick? That seems really wrong.

Especially after saying that you'd never refer to yourself that way...?
posted by Manhasset at 8:46 AM on September 27, 2008

Oh hey Iridic I was just being Colbert-satirical, practicing trying to see the world through the right wing reality distortion field. It's an important discipline to practice. You know what they say, before you argue with lunatics, walk a mile in their reality distortion field.
posted by fleetmouse at 8:47 AM on September 27, 2008

THIS PEN'S KINDA OLD!!!!!
posted by milarepa at 8:47 AM on September 27, 2008

My favorite line from McCain, "As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen."

Wasn't that Bob Dole's entire selling point in 1996?
posted by the_bone at 8:54 AM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Can you actually call *yourself* a maverick? That seems really wrong.

Especially after saying that you'd never refer to yourself that way...?
posted by Manhasset at 8:55 AM on September 27, 2008

You are such a maverick, Manhasset.
posted by yhbc at 9:02 AM on September 27, 2008

As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen.

I think it was a Sharpie.

The McCain campaign has been trying to portray Obama as an empty suit, a vacuous celebrity, and the Antichrist all summer. Instead, Obama was cool, calm, and collected, and had a lot more presence and substance than McCain's been trying to make him out to be.

Also, McCain kept going on, sometimes incoherently, about experience. That will be an interesting topic of discussion for Governor Palin and Senator Biden on Thursday.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:05 AM on September 27, 2008

Why did Obama keep saying "When I'm President"? Very confident of him, I guess, to assume he will win...
posted by sandraregina at 9:12 AM on September 27, 2008

I was a little disappointed by the bracelet fight debate.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:23 AM on September 27, 2008

My favorite line from McCain, "As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen."

Given how much garbage Bush has pulled over the last eight years, what he really needs is a truckload of White Out.
posted by orange swan at 9:28 AM on September 27, 2008

Why did Obama keep saying "When I'm President"? Very confident of him, I guess, to assume he will win...

Virtually every presidential candidate has done this, for as long as I can remember.

Even fifth-string candidates like Duncan "Who?" Hunter do this.
posted by Flunkie at 9:30 AM on September 27, 2008

Why did Obama keep saying "When I'm President"? Very confident of him, I guess, to assume he will win...

Because he's an uppity nig -

No, its probably because he's running for President, and he expects to win. It's exactly the same as having every single nominee introduced at their convention as "the next President of the United States." No one ever follows that phrase with "Well, assuming he wins in the general election, of course. Wouldn't want to appear over-confident."
posted by yhbc at 9:41 AM on September 27, 2008

I think Obama looks great onstage next to McCain. He won the handshake: every handshake photo has him holding McCain's forearm. He also wins the crowd wave every time (I know, I know, POW POW POW). Petty, but it's true. He also scored image points (with me) every time he pronounced "Taliban" and "Pakistan" correctly.

Sure I'm wearing emerald glasses, but I'm pleased with the results of the debate.
posted by lostburner at 9:47 AM on September 27, 2008

I think one GOP benefit of Palin being on the ticket is to make McCain look stronger in virtually any policy area by comparison.

Lowering the bar is easier than shoring up weakness.

Now I'm waiting for the rope-a-dope to be complete during the domestic issues debate where McCain will take Obama to task for not openly, aggressively criticizing his pick of Palin as VP.

I can see it now:

McCain: The most obviously underqualified, staggeringly awful person was named to the VP slot and you gave it a free pass. What kind of judgement is that? Friends, how is Obama going to stand up against the fatcats in Washington when he can't even stand up against Palin?

Then he'll fire Palin and claim the Presidency.
posted by mazola at 9:55 AM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Did anybody else think McCain was being a doucher with his squeaky Sharpie and paper-shuffling while Obama was trying to make a point? I can totally see them planning shit like ahead of time.
posted by Camofrog at 10:18 AM on September 27, 2008

Was just chatting with a friend of mine who's a staunch independent voter (he's voting Barr in November). He was really impressed by Obama's willingness to concede when McCain was right about something. It may very well turn out to be something that plays much better to independent moderates than Democratic partisans.
posted by EarBucket at 10:30 AM on September 27, 2008

mccainspeniskindofold.com
posted by Mick at 10:34 AM on September 27, 2008

McCain's "Obama doesn't understand" attack was doomed from the beginning. In order for this characterization to stick, Obama would have to do or say something that reinforced it. That just wasn't going to happen, barring a major head injury. This is also why the Palin pick torpedoed this attack since she is the perfect example of what naive and dangerous looks and sounds like. Obama would have to come across like Palin did in the Couric interview for this attack to work.

Obama's message matched his tenor. "McCain is absolutely right" is a great tactic that fits his message perfectly and ties right back into how ineffective the "naive" attack is against him. A major contention between these two in foreign policy has been about talking to the enemy--negotiation and diplomacy without preconditions. Obama showed he has the chops to stand his ground and still appear amicable, but most of all, that he can identify common ground. These clearly contrast with McCain's approach, are more obviously the path to bipartisanship, and demonstrate the opposite of naivety. It is sophisticated, and not in the tea and crumpets kind of way that McCain has been trying to characterize it. As far as I'm concerned, McCain's vignette of negotiations with Ahmadinejad sounded quite naive. And the implication of McCain's position, that he would continue Bush's (now abandoned) zero tolerance approach to diplomacy, just isn't going to go over well with anybody but the hardliners on the right.

The most salient point that Obama made on foreign policy was when he noted how much the other powers of the world have extended their influence across the globe while we have been bogged down in Iraq. When McCain comes back with "Iraq" "victory" "honor" "surge" "Iraq," and "Obama doesn't understand" he looks like a fool.

The debate was arguably a tie when measured by "scoring points" but I think what will matter more is how much more convincing Obama was as a representative of change compared to McCain, and how well Obama came across as capable and in command. The McCain camp worked so hard to create this cartoon image of Obama as completely incapable, a lucky idiot riding on his good looks and good speeches, they set the bar so ridiculously low they guaranteed Obama would never be able to live down to this expectation.

I expect we'll continue to see the upward trend toward Obama in the national polls but I'm not sure how that will affect the battleground states in particular.
posted by effwerd at 11:01 AM on September 27, 2008 [6 favorites]

McCain's penis is the same age as the rest of him.
posted by mazola at 11:01 AM on September 27, 2008

"As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen"
Because he wouldn't know what to do with a computer if it fell from the sky and landed on his head.
posted by Kellydamnit at 11:20 AM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

McCain's penis is the same age as the rest of him.

Naw, Charlie cut off the original and replaced it with a Cylon one when they had him in the Hilton. All them kids since then? Skin jobs.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:22 AM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

I agree in large part with effwerd's views above. I think people are so sick of business as usual in these things, where you try to paint your opponent as slightly worse than Satan, that it is refreshing to hear someone grant a common frame of reference (that is, when Obama said "John, you're right."). Obama agreed with McCain's assessment of several situations, but then went on to present drastically divergent opinions on how to deal with these situations. He did not agree with any of McCain's solutions, really, just to his framing of some problems.

By contrast, McCain refused to grant Obama, an obviously intelligent, well-informed, serious candidate, the smallest sliver of respect, instead insisting repeatedly that Obama "doesn't get it," despite ample evidence to the contrary. McCain also invoked the tired old specter of the Bush administration's various histrionic warnings about mushroom clouds and other imminent "existential threats," describing utter devastation as the only possible result of following Obama's policies. I just don't think people are going to fall for that hackneyed "vote for me or you will die an untimely and unpleasant death" schtick in sufficient numbers to deliver the White House to McCain.

McCain came off looking like a tired, irritable old windbag who likes to lecture the young'uns about trespassing on various lawns, except for the times when he came off sounding like he was trying to scare boy scouts around a campfire. There were moments, as he spoke about some impending doom or other, when I really thought he was telling ghost stories. All in all, I would describe McCain's appearance and conduct as just a bit unseemly.
posted by Mister_A at 11:26 AM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

McCain totally reminded me of some elderly racists I know through friends. These old creeps would never say anything racist out loud, but they just cannot, will not make eye contact with anyone who's more than a shade darker than they are. It's as though they think if they can't see the person, the person doesn't exist or isn't anything but pale white, it's so weird.
posted by zarah at 11:51 AM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

LAT/Bloomberg poll out today: Obama leads 46-42.

Among voters over 65.
posted by EarBucket at 12:05 PM on September 27, 2008 [6 favorites]

Dems almost always do well with retirement-age folks. Obama was wise to mention healthcare, and the Amazing Prescription Drug "Benefit" Corporate French-Kiss Birthday Gift Act in particular, as this is a subject that weighs heavily on the minds and wallets of the elderly.
posted by Mister_A at 12:41 PM on September 27, 2008

John Cole at balloon-juice.com had a good counter to the worry that Obama's magnanimous "you're right but..." rhetorical style might have backfired:

At any rate, if you still can not understand this, I propose a test. Gentlemen, the next time your wife asks if you love her, say “Yes, but there are things I wish were different about our relationship and I think I may love other women more.” The next time your wife asks you if still think she is beautiful, answer “Yes, but you are starting to sag and look a little old.” The next time she asks you if she is fat, say “No, but…” Get back to me after you get out of the hospital.

And, slightly OT, this story, if true (and I'm inclined to believe it is), is just appalling: holiday with John McCain.
posted by mothershock at 1:30 PM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm sorry, but there's no way that story's true, mothershock. First of all, we have no reason to think the man doesn't love all of his kids, and I need something more than an anonymously-sourced rumor on the internet to convince me otherwise. Second, you don't say things like that in public if you're a politician with any kind of ambition, and if you do, people hear about it. This story's even less credible than the Michelle Obama "Whitey" tape.
posted by EarBucket at 1:41 PM on September 27, 2008

hmmmm.... well, I'd be more skeptical if I hadn't read other stories about his love of telling racist jokes and rape jokes.
posted by mothershock at 1:51 PM on September 27, 2008

McCain did not say "horseshit" on national fucking television, any more than Obama gave Hilary the finger in front of a crowd of hundreds and a full press corps. There's more than enough to nail McCain with without having to grasp at straws like this.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:51 PM on September 27, 2008

True -- Sullivan posted a correction.
posted by mothershock at 1:53 PM on September 27, 2008

McCain totally reminded me of some elderly racists I know through friends. These old creeps would never say anything racist out loud, but they just cannot, will not make eye contact with anyone who's more than a shade darker than they are. It's as though they think if they can't see the person, the person doesn't exist or isn't anything but pale white, it's so weird.

That's exactly the sense I got from his body language. He reminded me of my grandfather, who used to do the same thing.

And it's trite, but the reason Obama can't go over the top and get really angry is because of what Sullivan said plainly, "Obama is also a black man against a white man. So he must also be very careful not to get angry and to stay cool and calm. He has to do that to avoid the "angry black man" trap. But then he cannot afford to seem weak either."

I'm thinking that may be a bit outmoded, but the perception is that it matters, so I'm sure he was coached in that direction.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:17 PM on September 27, 2008

Yea krinklyfig, that's about the size of it. That said, I don't think showing restraint, respect, and courtesy is something that Obama has to work at, in particular. These things are intrinsic to his character.
posted by Mister_A at 2:55 PM on September 27, 2008

This is an astoundingly good web ad from the Obama campaign. I think there's real viral potential there.
posted by EarBucket at 3:22 PM on September 27, 2008 [5 favorites]

Krinklyfig, I don't think he was coached. I think Obama truly believes in the 'it isn't red states vs blue states, it's the united states" dogma. Those who support him really want him to beat down McCain (and McCain's campaign has given him plenty opportunity), and I think we want that as payback for the last 8 atrocious years of Bush. We crave somebody on that side to get a black eye, it not a war crimes trial. BUT I think Obama really doesn't want to, won't, go there because that just perpetuates the red-state v. blue-state divide that has been growing since Clinton.

So when Obama says "I agree with you John..." and shows politeness towards them by not evicerating Palin, it's because he doesn't want to divide the country further.

I also think that he does that naturally from doing community organization where comprimise and conciliation are often the only way to get anything done.

On a totally different point: Did anyone think that Putin-KGB line was really odd? It seems to me that is one really good case where "you can know it, but you never say it." Much less at a debate where 56M watched.
posted by gofargogo at 4:00 PM on September 27, 2008

Both of them said Putin and not Medvedev. I think thats 100% fair. Calling Russia a RGB run country is 100% fair. No one knows what FSB is anyway.
posted by damn dirty ape at 4:12 PM on September 27, 2008

On a totally different point: Did anyone think that Putin-KGB line was really odd? It seems to me that is one really good case where "you can know it, but you never say it."

The oddness is primarily that it was a retort to a six-year-old remark by Bush.

As for Putin and the KGB, that's well-documented history and pretty much a neutral assessment of Russian governance today. Given the new Caucasus tensions, I'm not at all surprised at re-emergence of this type of comment. McCain clearly advocates scrapping even the most tenuous of working relationships with Russia. It's not exactly clear why this is, especially since the neocons keep trying to inject China into an antagonist role.
posted by dhartung at 4:21 PM on September 27, 2008

McCain totally reminded me of some elderly racists I know through friends. These old creeps would never say anything racist out loud, but they just cannot, will not make eye contact with anyone who's more than a shade darker than they are. It's as though they think if they can't see the person, the person doesn't exist or isn't anything but pale white, it's so weird.

When a reenactor put his knapsack on the ground, the person portraying his slave picked up his knapsack and "moved it before I could say a word. I instantly knew that I had an opportunity to demonstrate the institution's cruelty here, and so I did not acknowledge his act, did not thank him for it, did not make eye contact, did not stop my talk. My own cruelty -- even to make a teaching point to the audience -- made me shudder inside."

The more I think about this it doesn't make sense. What has Obama done to McCain to earn his contempt? We haven't heard anything of a personal feud between the two, fellow members of one of the most historically collegial bodies in thew world. Broder didn't think they disliked (or particularly liked) each other, though Timothy Noah suspects McCain is rankled by Obama's youth and success.

I'm actually wondering if it was an intentional dog-whistle. The campaign has definitely tried to play the race card -- pretty blatantly too. Is this one of those things that racist voters will notice and approve of? Or is it more a matter of noticing it if he were giving Obama respect?
posted by dhartung at 4:38 PM on September 27, 2008

Obama and McCain feuded about ethics reform in 2006, including some bitchy letters. McCain's was especially passive-aggressive:

I would like to apologize to you for assuming that your private assurances to me regarding your desire to cooperate in our efforts to negotiate bipartisan lobbying reform legislation were sincere.
...
But I understand how important the opportunity to lead your party's effort to exploit this issue must seem to a freshman Senator, and I hold no hard feelings over your earlier disingenuousness. Again, I have been around long enough to appreciate that in politics the public interest isn't always a priority for every one of us.

posted by kirkaracha at 5:24 PM on September 27, 2008

I think Obama truly believes in the 'it isn't red states vs blue states, it's the united states" dogma.

Looking at the results of past elections, I saw Clinton had got KY, TN, MO and even GA once. What changed so that these states are firmly considered "red" these days (or if they always were, how did Clinton carry them)?

538 projects great for Obama today.
posted by ersatz at 5:48 PM on September 27, 2008

or if they always were, how did Clinton carry them

He was southern.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:53 PM on September 27, 2008

Looking at the results of past elections, I saw Clinton had got KY, TN, MO and even GA once. What changed so that these states are firmly considered "red" these days (or if they always were, how did Clinton carry them)?

Well, I wouldn't count Missouri out. It's an uphill climb, yes, but there are polls showing it close to tied and moving Obama's direction. As for the other three states, yeah, Clinton was a southerner. He was also white. I don't think you can discount that in Appalachia and the deep South.
posted by EarBucket at 6:01 PM on September 27, 2008

I think McCain might just feel like it's his turn to be president and Obama's unworthy. It's like of like the dynamic between Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men:

Kaffee: I think he wants to say it. I think he's pissed off that he has to hide behind all this. I think he wants to say that he made a command decision and that should be then end of it.
[Starts imitating Jessup]
Kaffee: He eats breakfast 300 yards away from 4000 Cubans who are trained to kill him. And nobody's going to tell him how to run his unit least of all the Harvard mouth in his faggoty white uniform. I need to shake him, put him on the defensive and lead him right where he's dying to go.

posted by kirkaracha at 6:36 PM on September 27, 2008

"Angry John McCain showed up at the debate last night. It didn't sit well with undecided voters:

'McCain was seen as the more negative of the two—by 7 points before the debate and by 26 points after. The audience did not like it when he went after Obama for being 'naïve' or used his oft-repeated 'what Senator Obama doesn't understand' line. When the two clashed directly in the second half of the debate, with Obama repeatedly protesting McCain's characterization of his statements or positions, the voter dials went down. Voters appear to have judged McCain too negative in those encounters and Obama more favorably."^*

posted by ericb at 6:46 PM on September 27, 2008

L.A. Times:

"It was a debate, mostly civil though occasionally cranky, between a tough old man and a polished young one. McCain revealed more of himself in that arena, wincing and grimacing during the split-screen shots while Obama was speaking.

That dynamic threaded its way through the emotional highlights of the event. Time and again, McCain, who is 72 and would be the oldest man ever elected to a first term, condescended to Obama, who is 47 and one of the youngest ever to win his party's nomination. 'He doesn't understand,' McCain said repeatedly. Discussing Obama's willingness to engage in talks with Iran without preconditions, McCain said: 'It isn't just naive. It's dangerous.'

Obama declined to be belittled. Although McCain refused to address him directly -- despite encouragement from moderator Jim Lehrer -- Obama looked at and spoke to McCain. Obama often credited McCain on issues -- a grace that was not reciprocated -- but he did not accept the role of junior candidate."

posted by ericb at 6:47 PM on September 27, 2008

Second, you don't say things like that in public if you're a politician with any kind of ambition

I am not claiming the story you're talking about is true. However, I frankly don't see any reason to believe that McCain is not the kind of man who says things like that in public. On the contrary, he's exactly the kind of man who says things like that in public, political ambition or no.

The man publicly joked about a teenage girl -- a specific and real teenage girl -- being "so ugly" because "her father is Janet Reno".

The man publicly joked about a woman getting violently raped by a gorilla, and deeming her experience "magnificent".

The man publicly and angrily called his wife a "trollop" and a "cunt" to her face.

All of these things were done not just publicly, but publicly in front of reporters.
posted by Flunkie at 6:52 PM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

Well, the sourcing on the gorilla joke and the "cunt" comment is shakier than I'd like. Regardless, even if they're true, there's a big step from there to telling a stranger you hate one of your children. The joke is super tasteless, but I could imagine someone thinking it's funny. Calling your wife a cunt is awful, but it's the kind of thing some people do when they lose their temper. Calling one of your children "that black thing" and saying you hate her to some stranger you've just met on vacation? That'd make him a moron and a sociopath.

Plus it drags his family into the mud in a way that I'd be really uncomfortable with, even if there were proof the story is true. Even if it weren't some anonymous rumor floating around the internet, I'd hate for his daughter to read that. There are plenty of perfectly good reasons to oppose John McCain without this kind of trash. If someone posted a story like that in this thread about Obama, we'd all be livid, and with good reason.
posted by EarBucket at 7:03 PM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

The joke is super tasteless, but I could imagine someone thinking it's funny. Calling your wife a cunt is awful, but it's the kind of thing some people do when they lose their temper. Calling one of your children "that black thing" and saying you hate her to some stranger you've just met on vacation? That'd make him a moron and a sociopath.

First, I don't see where the article claims that he said he hates her.

Second, like you could imagine someone thinking that gorilla rape and/or calling a specific teenage girl ugly to (essentially) a national audience is funny, I can imagine someone recounting the "that black thing" story as if it were a funny anecdote - even if he thinks of his daughter fondly now.

Again, I am not saying it is true. I'm saying that, based on McCain's personality, it is not clear to me (as it is to you) that it is obviously untrue.
posted by Flunkie at 7:20 PM on September 27, 2008

Calling Russia a RGB run country is 100% fair. No one knows what FSB is anyway.

Russia is run by colored people? No wonder McCain doesn't trust Putin!
posted by spaceman_spiff at 7:22 PM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

Was just chatting with a friend of mine who's a staunch independent voter (he's voting Barr in November). He was really impressed by Obama's willingness to concede when McCain was right about something. It may very well turn out to be something that plays much better to independent moderates than Democratic partisans.
posted by EarBucket

Me being the guy shouting at the screen for Obama to stop telling McCain is right, I found this insightful EarBucket. I think ive read so much about McCain i wanted Obama to show everyone else all of McCains hypocrisies and lies. But I see now that from the perspective of an undecided, Obama's tactic of aknowledged shared understanding was a very positive trait. Obama was really talking just to me, his base, he was specifically make choices to sway independents.

Obama and his camp obviously know what they are doing alot more than I do, and rightly so.
posted by Merik at 7:25 PM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

First, I don't see where the article claims that he said he hates her.

You're right, sorry, it doesn't say that. Nonetheless, I have a hard time believing the story, and I don't think it's any more worth repeating than the "Obama's a Muslim" stuff. I'm not saying McCain's not an asshole. I'm just saying there's zero reason to give this particular story either credence or circulation.
posted by EarBucket at 7:27 PM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

And I'm not saying this story should be repeated. I'm just disputing your claim that McCain is not the kind of man who says things like that.
posted by Flunkie at 7:32 PM on September 27, 2008

Fair enough.
posted by EarBucket at 7:34 PM on September 27, 2008

Musical debate highlights.
posted by topynate at 8:07 PM on September 27, 2008

The man publicly joked about a teenage girl -- a specific and real teenage girl -- being "so ugly" because "her father is Janet Reno".

The man publicly joked about a woman getting violently raped by a gorilla, and deeming her experience "magnificent".

The man publicly and angrily called his wife a "trollop" and a "cunt" to her face.

All of these things were done not just publicly, but publicly in front of reporters.

Oh. My. God. I had no idea.
posted by orange swan at 8:10 PM on September 27, 2008

I cannot keep track of all these McCain/Palin threads.

(so I comment in them to mark my place)
posted by Bookhouse at 8:49 PM on September 27, 2008

Isn't it about time that one of them does something really noteworthy so that we can have another FPP that loads faster?
posted by leftcoastbob at 9:33 PM on September 27, 2008

Hah! This thread only has 600 comments, bob. Back in my day, we let threads get to 5 or 6 THOUSAND comments before we started to complain.
posted by graventy at 9:57 PM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

I am now utterly confused which thread to follow for the election.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 10:25 PM on September 27, 2008

Barack Obama will look you in the eye
posted by homunculus at 10:38 PM on September 27, 2008

Is this the right thread for an argument?
posted by mazola at 11:50 PM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah, it was easier when all we had was the giant Palin thread.

Anyway, this is a great article about how McCain personally fucked up the bailout deal during his trip to washington and how Obama punked him hat the White house meetng.
posted by afu at 12:55 AM on September 28, 2008

mccainspeniskindofold.com

OK
posted by krinklyfig at 2:04 AM on September 28, 2008 [2 favorites]

My republican friend from Illinois just called me. He is like, "I would rather be poked in the eye by McCain's old pen than vote for him."
posted by Mister_A at 6:28 AM on September 28, 2008

Excellent James Fallows analysis of the debate. Conclusion:

For years and years, Democrats have wondered how their candidates could "win" the debates on logical points -- that is, tactics -- but lose the larger struggle because these seemed too aggressive, supercilious, cold-blooded, or whatever. To put it in tactical/strategic terms, Democrats have gotten used to winning battles and losing wars. Last night, the Democratic candidate showed a far keener grasp of this distinction than did the Republican who accused him of not understanding it.

posted by languagehat at 7:40 AM on September 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama was really talking just to me, his base, he was specifically make choices to sway independents.
posted by Merik at 7:25 PM

wow, that came out as the opposite of what i meant. Note to self, read preview.
What i meant was:

Obama wasn't really talking just to me, his base, he was specifically making choices to sway independents.

So can I post a biden / palin debate thread yet?
posted by Merik at 8:23 AM on September 28, 2008

New Obama web ad: Bad News
posted by lenny70 at 9:45 AM on September 28, 2008

Heads-up: we're liveblogging the VP debate here over on Politicalfilter.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:23 PM on October 2, 2008