Comments on: Elections are fun!

Elections are fun!

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:49:54 -0800

Welcome to The Sacramento County Republican Party. The official website has removed content calling for Obama to be waterboarded. But it still contains fake quotes supposedly from Obama's memoir. In this political climate, 33% of voters do not identify Obama as Christian, and 8% believe he is Muslim. Yet, the polls predict a landslide, hinted at by early voting. McCain needs something spectacular, and he may be regretting his decision to invoke Bill Ayers in tonight's debate; and perhaps other things.

By: GuyZero

GuyZero — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:57:27 -0800

“I think he is probably ensured that it will come up this time.” Maybe I can forestall a political flamewar by making this into a grammar flamewar. Does this actually scan?

By: Fuzzy Monster

Fuzzy Monster — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:58:51 -0800

Threatening a U.S. Senator? Isn't that... Terrorism? *waits patiently for The Sacramento County Republican Party to be rounded up & sent to Gitmo*

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:00:36 -0800

i have the feeling that if mccain doesn't bring it up obama will

By: boo_radley

boo_radley — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:02:47 -0800

The last link is a CNN piece on the Alaskan Independence Party. I've wondered for a while why this group hasn't been brought to the fore by the media, and it's interesting to see what CNN has to say about them.

By: mattbucher

mattbucher — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:03:07 -0800

God I can't wait for McCain to be a footnote to history.

By: ericb

ericb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:03:56 -0800

Is this gonna be tonight's debate thread?

By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:04:02 -0800

Rarely is the question asked: Progressive-Equally-Scary-Commie???

By: DU

DU — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:04:05 -0800

33% of voters do not identify Obama as Christian Pretty interesting that he still gets a landslide. Of course, it depends on what you mean by "identify" and "Christian".

By: almostmanda

almostmanda — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:06:56 -0800

he may be regretting his decision to invoke Bill Ayers in tonight's debate; I don't think he understands the point of a whisper campaign. The problem with leveling nonsensical, truth-stretching accusations directly to your opponent is that he gets to refute them just as directly. Not only that, but by making it clear in advance, he's given the Obama campaign half a week to prepare remarks. I mean, he clearly understands that "You don't say that out loud!" when you're figuring out a game plan. But appeasing some riled up supporters is all it takes for him to spell out his plans. Does he really want them watching tonight?

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:07:23 -0800

the polls predict a landslide Hell, even Karl Rove thinks it's going to be a big win for Obama.

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:07:42 -0800

33% of voters do not identify Obama as Christian Pretty interesting that he still gets a landslide. Of course, it depends on what you mean by "identify" and "Christian". I would get a big kick if he were to win in a landslide and there winds up being a chorus of misinformed voters who feel that they were awfully progressive to have voted for that nice Arab Muslim man.

By: Avenger

Avenger — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:08:49 -0800

The official website has removed content calling for Obama to be waterboarded. Wow, thats positively tame. Alot of posters over at FreeRepublic are already making vague threats against Obama's life or hinting that there may be another secession/Civil War if he wins. Kudos to the Sac Repubs for only wanting to horribly torture Obama. They're obviously the moderates in this election. Another interesting thing I've noticed on those websites are a total rejection of polling data. CBS had a poll yesterday that showed Obama +14 nationwide (which even I think is an outlier), but regardless the rightly blogs were full of posts about how polls are being manipulated by libural elites to demoralize True American Patriots. I think the real antipathy against polls goes deeper on the Right, however. If you think about it, extreme Rightism (or extreme Nationalism or Fundamentalism of any kind) takes a very dim view of people's opinions. Opinions are something that are supposed to align with Authority (God, the State, the King, the Pope, etc.) not something that you're supposed to, you know, just have on your own. Rightist leaders (I'm thinking specifically of Bush here) pride themselves on "doing whatever is right" even when almost everyone (90% of the world and 75% of America in Bush's case) disagrees with them. People's opinions are immaterial to God's/the Leader's/the King's Will. I remember reading another poster on FreeRepublic who once said that he or she "dreamed of a world without polls". I was startled at how shockingly revealing that statement was.

By: The Straightener

The Straightener — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:10:07 -0800

While McCain supporters touted Obama as a secret Muslim operative, McCain revealed his own secret identity.

By: grounded

grounded — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:10:08 -0800

I'm really looking forward to McCain's concession speech -- that is, if he gives one. Given their history of coping with facts, there's a good chance the McCain-Palin ticket will simply declare victory and show up for the inauguration regardless.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:10:14 -0800

Who is Batman?

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:10:54 -0800

I don't think Ayers will come up tonight.

By: octothorpe

octothorpe — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:12:19 -0800

Another interesting thing I've noticed on those websites are a total rejection of polling data. CBS had a poll yesterday that showed Obama +14 nationwide (which even I think is an outlier), but regardless the rightly blogs were full of posts about how polls are being manipulated by libural elites to demoralize True American Patriots. Well Christ, that poll was conducted by CBS and The New York Times. Both avowed enemies of the state, what did you expect?

By: filthy light thief

filthy light thief — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:17:50 -0800

Waterboard Obama? "In the governor's view, it's completely and totally inappropriate," said Julie Soderlund, a Schwarzenegger spokeswoman. Spin, spin, sugar. In other words, "not everyone found this offensive, but The Governator's word should probably be followed." But he defended his Web site. "I'm aware of the content," he said. "Some people find it offensive, others do not. I cannot comment on how people interpret things." MacGlashan said he would "consider people's complaints" before taking any action. Spin me right 'round .. would you consider waterboarding patriotic, or torture? Or is that also something you're leaving open to interpretation? Apparently The Governor's complaint was enough. But to be fair, the Dems also sound ... less than realistic. Democratic party officials condemned the GOP site. "It's exactly the kind of vile, repugnant politicking that has relegated the California GOP to an afterthought in California politics," said Roger Salazar, spokesman for the state Democratic Party. "Even the top of their ticket would be disgusted by this display of dishonesty." "Afterthought in California Politics?" Yes, I realize California is strongly Democratic in the broad term, but there are whole sections of the state that are very Republican. Are those sections an afterthought, too? And "display of dishonesty?" It's a crude effort to rouse the public, not dishonesty. "We don't agree with and/or like that guy, let's attack him!" is not being dishonest, it's rabble-rousing.

By: paisley henosis

paisley henosis — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:20:14 -0800

As scary as this whole pile of shit is, it is nothing compared to how scary it would be if it actually worked.

By: mai

mai — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:21:24 -0800

It seems like Obama is baiting McCain to bring up Ayers, and it seems like McCain has taken the bait. If he is stupid enough to follow through on this, Obama gets the chance to make a well-rehearsed, decisive refutation of McCain's accusations, and McCain will be playing into the recent public image of him as a mean-spirited whiner who would rather attack his opponent than say something constructive. If McCain has any sense, he will let it drop.

By: DU

DU — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:23:47 -0800

Also interesting that Republicans now do believe that waterboarding is extraordinarily cruel. Not to mention punitive, not informative--notice they don't want him to talk, they want him to shut up.

By: billysumday

billysumday — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:24:56 -0800

Get ready for the big debate switcheroo tonight. McCain won't bring up Ayers - in fact, he'll paint Obama as the uber-negative candidate, talk about how he's run more negative advertising than McCain, he'll accuse Obama of thuggery in regards to ACORN, and he'll call for a more civil campaign. He'll dole out a lot of straight talk, and he'll talk about honor, and about victory in Iraq, and his judgment on the surge, and all that stuff. No Ayers. Just pure, unadulterated John McCain superhero POW bullshit. And Obama, I'm guessing, will be a little flat-footed because he'll be expecting a complete hit job.

By: Mastercheddaar

Mastercheddaar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:26:11 -0800

Isn't threatening a US Senate with assassination or torture a federal crime? You can't say anything about plotting to kill the doofus in office, surely there is something against doing this?

By: DU

DU — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:29:10 -0800

If McCain has any sense, he will let it drop. McCain has sense (or I used to think so). What he doesn't have is a base with sense. They want to run on blood and fear like in 2002 and 2004. But it's 2008 now and ISLAMOATHEISTTERRORISTGAYSAREKILLINGOURBABIES isn't going to work. The dynamic predicted before this election began is playing out: McCain has to run as a rightwing nutjob to get the base turned out but as an independent to run against Bush. This is an impossible task, so he must choose only one. He's made his bed and is now lying in it.

By: cortex

cortex — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:30:55 -0800

This is an impossible task McCain as HAL.

By: jamaro

jamaro — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:31:47 -0800

My uncle is a whale in the Sac GOP, the kind of guy who donates enough money and time and cultivates enough contacts that Arnold shows up to his dinner parties. Uncle GOP is voting for Obama this year.

By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:32:22 -0800

Who is Batman? Equating McCain with The Penguin is completely unwarranted.

By: Brandon Blatcher

Brandon Blatcher — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:32:29 -0800

Hell, even Karl Rove thinks it's going to be a big win for Obama. He's been wrong before.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:32:49 -0800

McCain has to run as a rightwing nutjob to get the base turned out but as an independent to run against Bush. This is an impossible task, so he must choose only one. He's made his bed and is now lying in it. He's trying to do both, and he's failing at both.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:33:40 -0800

This Rolling Stones article on McCain (was it linked here) is pretty fascinating.

By: ob

ob — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:38:28 -0800

Rolling Stones article on McCain Sympathy for the Devil?

By: emmet

emmet — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:38:49 -0800

This op ed piece blew me away... a first-hand report of Bill Ayers' sterling character and good works... in today's Wall Street Jounral fer crimeny sakes. McCain might as well just give up now.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:39:55 -0800

Democrats need to push back against this anti-ACORN B.S. that's floating around the MSM. They hire people to register voters, and sometimes those registrations are erronious. But there's really nothing they can do, other then stop registering people. Obviously some registrations are going to be wrong, and sometimes people will fill out more registrations in order to cheat ACORN. But ACORN has no choice but to turn in the bad registrations, because the law requires it. They do put cover letters on registrations they think are bogus, but they are required by law to turn them in. The alternative would be to cease registration entirely, which is exactly what the republicans want.

By: ericb

ericb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:41:00 -0800

I don't think Ayers will come up tonight. If he does -- Obama Pre-Debate Memo: We're Ready For Ayers.

“Honoring the pre-debate tradition, Barack Obama's campaign is out with a memo on Wednesday raising the expectations for John McCain to ungodly heights. But in addition to setting the stage for tonight's affair, the Illinois Democrat did something peculiar: he allowed a peek into internal strategy. Spokesman Bill Burton lays out -- in no small measure -- how he believes the debate will proceed. ‘Just this weekend, John McCain vowed to 'whip Obama's you-know-what' at the debate,’ he writes, ‘and he's indicated that he'll use Bill Ayers to attack Barack Obama... Senator Obama is going to use the debate to discuss his plan for the economy. That's what he's been doing this entire campaign.’ Such a prediction may appear, at once, over-simplistic and optimistic. But the Obama campaign has seemingly been engineering this scenario for the past week. Indeed, if John McCain brings up Ayers in tonight it may be because he was goaded into doing so. Following the candidate's second debate, both Obama and Joe Biden chided the Republican nominee for not making the personal character attacks he made on the stump to Obama's face. Since then, however, polling data has shown voters recoiling from McCain's use of Bill Ayers in political attacks. The Arizona Republican is left in a quandary: don't bring up the former '60s radical and risk being seen as squirmy and afraid; or bring him up and get bashed by Obama for not talking about the economy. As Burton writes: ‘But after two debates in which John McCain didn't mention the middle class once -- and after his campaign declared openly that they want to turn the page on talking about the economy -- the real question is not how many attacks McCain can land in the debate, but whether he can finally communicate a vision to turn this economy around.’”

By: octothorpe

octothorpe — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:43:17 -0800

I hate to link to Politico but this is a funny little article about how people are believing the crazy right-wing crap that said about Obama but they're voting for him anyway:

54 year-old white male, voted Kerry '04, Bush '00, Dole '96, hunter, NASCAR fan...hard for Obama said: "I'm gonna hate him the minute I vote for him. He's gonna be a bad president. But I won't ever vote for another god-damn Republican. I want the government to take over all of Wall Street and bankers and the car companies and Wal-Mart run this county like we used to when Reagan was President." The next was a woman, late 50s, Democrat but strongly pro-life. Loved B. and H. Clinton, loved Bush in 2000. "Well, I don't know much about this terrorist group Barack used to be in with that Weather guy but I'm sick of paying for health insurance at work and that's why I'm supporting Barack."

By: cjorgensen

cjorgensen — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:43:54 -0800

mattbucher: "God I can't wait for McCain to be a footnote to history." Say what you will about him, but I think he's already made a big enough mark to not go down as a footnote. 30 years in the Senate, a Vet, a POW, Presidential candidate multiple times, etc. A bit far from a mere footnote. Avenger: "I remember reading another poster on FreeRepublic who once said that he or she "dreamed of a world without polls". I was startled at how shockingly revealing that statement was." Well, I dream of a world without polls as well. I think there are too many people who don't bother making up their own minds, but just follow the polls. I am sure there are people who only like Obama because he's the frontrunner, and I am sure their are Republicans who will motivated to vote by this same fact. Both seem like stupid reasons to vote to me. Just like the stock market going up or down based on news reports, I think politics suffers from this same self fulfilling prophecy. The polls say it's so, so it becomes fact. I also have a huge damage with exit polls. I think they should be illegal.

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:44:27 -0800

You know, I laugh at those people who were wondering what was going to happen "in the ghetto" if McCain won. I think the real danger is from the "Falling Down" conservatives. What will the whackjobs do if Obama wins?

By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:45:13 -0800

More fun with the base. I suspect the guy at 00:31 is going to get his milkshake drunk.

By: snofoam

snofoam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:47:01 -0800

I think McCain will focus on convincing moderates, rather than appeasing the far-right. I mean, if he "wimps out" and doesn't attack Obama's character with the terrorist BS, the far-right is still more or less obligated to vote for him, right? If he continues to come across as petty and uninspiring, undecided voters will increasingly break the other way.

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:47:15 -0800

Spin, spin, sugar. In other words, "not everyone found this offensive, but The Governator's word should probably be followed." In Schwarzenegger's defense, he's probably sincerely disgusted by this stuff. He's been intensely frustrated by the provinciality and narrowness of his own party's state legislature representation. He knows that the Republican party can never take a leadership role in California state politics without significantly broadening its appeal, and this kind of nonsense is incompatible with broader appeal. The California Republican party is a parochial, right-wing, relic. Schwarzenegger himself would have never been elected if he had had to run in a primary in which the voters were that party's narrow base.

By: chuckdarwin

chuckdarwin — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:47:55 -0800

I used to feel sorry for John McCain. I used to say that he was the only Republican I would be happy to vote for. Those days are over. He has squandered all my goodwill in the same way that his buddy W did after 9/11. The moment has passed, and his time is up. I don't even want him in the Senate anymore. He's fucking crazy and he makes bad decisions. If I had my druthers, he'd retire now and spend his remaining years spending his SECOND wife's (you know, the one he called a cunt) money on frivilous things... like starting an investment banking firm.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:49:19 -0800

If he does -- Obama Pre-Debate Memo: We're Ready For Ayers. I know they're ready, but I also think McCain, while making some bad mistakes right now, will not make that one tonight. It'd be nice if I was wrong, because I think it is probably the very worst thing he could do.

By: swift

swift — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:49:43 -0800

Spiders for Obama.

By: HyperBlue

HyperBlue — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:50:17 -0800

When republican spinsters start talking Obama landslide they want Dems to think it is in the bag so anyone a bit lazy will figure they don't need to take the time to vote. It also serves to further rally the base. GET OUT THE VOTE!

By: inigo2

inigo2 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:50:35 -0800

I think the real danger is from the "Falling Down" conservatives. What will the whackjobs do if Obama wins? DFENS. Start from day 1 blaming Obama and the dems for anything and everything that goes wrong, from a drop in the DOW to a hangnail.

By: ericb

ericb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:52:12 -0800

By: ardgedee

ardgedee — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:52:20 -0800

There is a metric I apply to candidates for national office. I call it the Mondale Unit. A candidate whose MU approaches one has little or no charisma. He is incapable of inspiring anybody to self-sacrifice. His campaign exists -- even to his own partisans -- purely as token opposition. In general, when comparing candidates running for the American presidency, the candidate with a lower MU is going to win. Somebody whose MU is zero -- who has no Mondale in him whatsoever -- could talk you into walking into a burning building singing a happy song, and you'd thank him for the opportunity. Presidents of the 20th century with vanishingly low MUs would include FDR, JFK and Reagan. Despite the way I'm talking, this isn't a specific value of a candidate's electability -- it's a dominant influence on that electability, a synthesis largely of the perceiveable qualities of the candidate himself. It is related to his charisma, but is defined not only by that but by the quality of the campaign around him, and innumerable intangibles. You can even use this in a fantasy-football way, hypothetically running, say, McGovern against Bob Dole. In modern politics, a candidate's MU is a changeable value as the candidate learns how to campaign or begins flailing against slipping odds. For example, Hilary's MU was lower in December 07 than in May 08, though it was never as low as Barack Obama's MU. The MU becomes a fixed value only after their exit from national politics -- Hilary's MU has been sliding downward slightly now that she's at least making a game attempt at campaigning for Obama. Kerry's MU rose as the Republican smear machine did its work on him. Al Gore's MU, weirdly enough, dropped in the waning days of the campaign, but it wasn't adequate. Obama's MU is vanishingly small (can you think of ANY American candidate who inspires unsolicited propaganda from so many popular artists?), and McCain's is the highest of any Republican's since Bob Dole's, although he looked much better in the earlier primaries. Come the debate tonight, the winner will not be the one who performs the best rhetorically or stays the most meaningful or truthful. It's the guy who impresses the most Americans that they could put up with seeing him on TV regularly, talking about policy, for the next few years. It's been said that Americans, above all, vote for a President they could have a beer with. I don't think that applies to either of these candidates. Then again, I never pictured Ronald Reagan chilling with a brew and his buds, either.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:52:42 -0800

That video from Al Jazeera is hilarious.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:53:06 -0800

I also have a huge damage with exit polls. I think they should be illegal. You want it to be illegal for a free citizen to walk up to another free citizen and ask them a question they're entirely free to ignore.

By: spock

spock — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:53:36 -0800

From electoral-vote.com on why Obama may be spoiling for this issue to be brought up:

McCain's Transition Chief Lobbied for Saddam Hussein
The person charged with planning the McCain administration, William Timmons, lobbied for Saddam Hussein in an effort to get the international community off his back. Obama challenged McCain to talk about William Ayers to his face at the debate tonight and McCain accepted the challenge. What was Obama thinking? Maybe he will bring up Timmons and point that he (Obama) was 8 years old and living in Indonesia when Ayers was planting crude bombs but McCain knowingly chose Saddam Hussein's lobbyist for an important job in his campaign. There could be fireworks if Obama brings this up.

By: phooky

phooky — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:54:37 -0800

I also have a huge damage with exit polls. I think they should be illegal. Why? I think they should be mandatory. At this point, they are the only remaining sanity check on the vote. Until we have paper trails on our votes, we need external monitoring.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:54:49 -0800

This is why Democrats can't win national elections. It just supports your own self-satisfied conceit to not allow the Republican to distort, lie and defame.

By: DU

DU — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:56:42 -0800

"Falling Down conservatives" Yes.

By: Kwantsar

Kwantsar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:58:37 -0800

Democrats need to push back against this anti-ACORN B.S. that's floating around the MSM. They hire people to register voters, and sometimes those registrations are erronious. Or "fraudulent".

By: kittens for breakfast

kittens for breakfast — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:58:52 -0800

>I think the real danger is from the "Falling Down" conservatives. What will the whackjobs do if Obama wins? >>DFENS. No, no; the correct answer is DPENS.

By: Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese

Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:00:56 -0800

I guess I don't hang out in enough right-wing forums since this is the first time I've seen the bumper sticker "The only difference between Obama and Osama is BS." Nonsensical and offensive, but rather funny, actually.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:01:12 -0800

Democrats need to push back against this anti-ACORN B.S. that's floating around the MSM. They hire people to register voters, and sometimes those registrations are erronious. But there's really nothing they can do, other then stop registering people. Obviously some registrations are going to be wrong, and sometimes people will fill out more registrations in order to cheat ACORN. But ACORN has no choice but to turn in the bad registrations, because the law requires it. Oh, stop bending over backwards for those radicals. Let's be clear: if you offer a service collecting paperwork from people, and that paperwork is filled out incorrectly, then you are to blame. I don't want to hear any excuses about "legal requirements to submit the paperwork anyway". This is why I want to see people hold the US Post Office accountable for their share of bad voter registration forms. They've been awfully quiet. What do they have to hide?

By: Pantengliopoli

Pantengliopoli — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:02:49 -0800

going to get his milkshake drunk How satisfying would it be to see Obama deliver that line to McCain? I think there should be one last debate on 11/5, just so these two can say everything they actually WANT to say... Still, I'd be surprised if McCain actually brings up Ayers and, if he doesn't, Obama may just let him stew. Either way, Obama will be prepared to deal with it -- he's not been caught flat-footed on many issues so far, especially those with this much press coverage.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:03:01 -0800

New McCain slogan: Obama Puts Hollywood Before America! Looks like someone's not going to take Dennis Hopper's betrayal lying down.

By: matteo

matteo — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:03:17 -0800

Rolling Stones article on McCain Sympathy for the Devil? You Can't Always Get What You Want. In McCain's case, he just wants to finally outrank his father. This is his last chance and it seems highly likely that he never will.

By: snofoam

snofoam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:03:49 -0800

Are there plausible October surprises that could flip the results at this point (knock on wood)? If terrorists attack, that ruins the one thing that has been okay. If Bin Laden is caught, who needs someone who's better at homeland security. If the market goes up, we're still going to be getting a constant stream of data supporting the notion that the wider economy is doing poorly. If Monica Lewinsky comes out of retirement to give him a blow job, maybe. But really, what events could happen that would turn this around?

By: lord_wolf

lord_wolf — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:04:00 -0800

I hate to link to Politico but this is a funny little article about how people are believing the crazy right-wing crap that said about Obama but they're voting for him anyway: That made my head asplode. And it's fascinating to compare that to this NYT article on the views of some Southern voters.

By: Saxon Kane

Saxon Kane — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:04:51 -0800

From the NY Daily News Piece on scenarios for a McCain upset: 6. A Terrorist Attack The unspeakable would benefit the Republican by shifting voter fears from financial security to personal safety. Even the most cynical players on both sides pray that won't happen. I think that's given the Wacko Right a lot more credit than they deserve.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:05:30 -0800

When Bush was put into office by judicial coup, our conservative friend were quite bullying about it. Suck it up, they said. You lost, now live with it. Dollars to donuts the day after Obama wins the election, they find some self-proclaimed redneck in a pickup truck filled with rifles and explosives driving toward Washington, and, when they pull him over, he tells them that Obama and ACORN stole the election.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:09:45 -0800

I was wondering what that "Hollywood" business was. I got a voicemail message from a McCain volunteer that was so rushed I couldn't understand it, but "Hollywood would repeated in it twice. It sounded like this: ThisismarilyncallingforjonmccainobamaputsHOLLYWOOD beforepresidencywheneconomywastankinghejustsat whilebillswerepassednayinalsecurity whoisobamaHOLLYWOOD. We replayed it four times trying to understand why the word Hollywood kept jumping it. It seemed unrelated to everything else.

By: Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese

Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:10:02 -0800

"Dollars to donuts the day after Obama wins the election, they find some self-proclaimed redneck in a pickup truck filled with rifles and explosives driving toward Washington" That's a fairly safe prediction, seeing as how it already happened -- just replace "Washington" with "Denver".

By: NoMich

NoMich — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:11:19 -0800

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:15:18 -0800

And it's fascinating to compare that to this NYT article on the views of some Southern voters. I hate those articles. Some reporter goes out and finds the most racist voters they can, in the southeast, and it makes it seem like that's the dominant reason those states swing Republican. It's one reason, for sure, but it's terrible reporting. Those people are everywhere.

By: cjorgensen

cjorgensen — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:17:04 -0800

cjorgensen: "I also have a huge damage with exit polls. I think they should be illegal." ROU_Xenophobe: "You want it to be illegal for a free citizen to walk up to another free citizen and ask them a question they're entirely free to ignore." Yes. As it is done now at least. Often, by the time I get to vote, I already know the results of the election in my state based off these polls. I'm not looking for suspense, don't think somehow the outcome has been spoiled like knowing the ending of a movie, but I do want to preserve the integrity of the vote. How many people choose not to bother to vote because they know it's a hopeless cause for their candidate? How many people in California choose not to vote because they already know the electoral outcome has been decided before they even get to cast a vote? Talk about your vote not counting. Exit polls deprive people of their voice. I also don't think any state should release the results for three days after the election, and think all polling places should close at the same time and open at the same time. You're free to do all the polling you want, ask whomever whatever you desire. Just stay away from me while I am conducting my civil responsibility. And you're right, I am free to ignore the person, but honestly don't think I should have to. They have no right to be there. Just as I think it's a bad idea to interview a juror during an active trial. Pretty much the same thing. I think exit polls are manipulative and misleading. They are part of what gave us the Florida fiasco. If there were decent ethics involved in this kind of polling I wouldn't mind. A reasonable and respectful distance from the polls, not reporting the results until the poll closed, and accounting of what their margin of error is (how many times did they call it for the wrong candidate, etc.). Also, these pollsters are not unpolitically motivated. Many are associated either directly with a campaign or special interest group. Forgive me if I don't trust them to be unbiased. Even the ones that are supposed to be independent probably aren't truly. Many are unpaid volunteers working for various news organizations. I just don't see how you can trust the data. Fortunately, there is data I do mostly trust, called a vote count. Let's just wait to see what it says. I don't see why we need insta-polls and predictions. A candidate doesn't win based on what people say as they leave the polls, and it's an election, not a fortune telling event. So in the interest of preserving fair elections I do think exit polls should be outlawed. Besides, it's nobody's business that I'm voting for Obama!

By: DU

DU — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:17:09 -0800

The unspeakable would benefit the Republican by shifting voter fears from financial security to personal safety. On the contrary, I'd be even more determined (if such were possible) to vote for Obama. One of the worst attacks on American soil happened on their watch, with warning, and not only did they fail to prevent it they didn't even lock the doors AFTER the horses were stolen.

By: threeturtles

threeturtles — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:17:49 -0800

ardgedee: Come the debate tonight, the winner will not be the one who performs the best rhetorically or stays the most meaningful or truthful. It's the guy who impresses the most Americans that they could put up with seeing him on TV regularly, talking about policy, for the next few years. Is it sad that I think this is the most accurate description I've seen of how Americans choose their president?

By: delmoi

delmoi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:17:53 -0800

This is why Democrats can't win national elections. It just supports your own self-satisfied conceit to not allow the Republican to distort, lie and defame. What? We only have one national election, and Clinton, Carter, LBJ, Kennedy, etc won and it looks like Obama will win. I just hope the democrats don't go back to their Kerry/Dukakis/Mondale nominating ways in 2016.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:22:35 -0800

Which John McCain will show up to debate? Start from day 1 blaming Obama and the dems for anything and everything that goes wrong, from a drop in the DOW to a hangnail. Plus a Republican zeal for the separation of powers, checks and balances, and limits on executive power. Just look at the picture and be terrified of an Obama presidency! He's got a weapon! The only difference between Obama and Osama is BS. Doesn't that imply that one of them's a straight talker and the other one's a bullshitter?

By: lostburner

lostburner — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:23:10 -0800

I just hope the democrats don't go back to their Kerry/Dukakis/Mondale nominating ways in 2016. I, too, hope they never nominate anyone besides Obama.

By: Saxon Kane

Saxon Kane — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:26:31 -0800

~~Exit polls~~ The Electoral College deprive[s] people of their voice. ftfy

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:30:12 -0800

I'm certainly not counting my chickens in regards to McCain losing at the moment. I genuinely admired the man during the 2000 election cycle, but have been more and more disappointed with him in the ensuing years. During this election, he has made bad decisions after bad decisions, chosen a vice presidential candidate who is ill-prepared for the job, and moved erratically from one strategy to another. I confess, I can't recall the last time a Republican candidate for President has seemed this ill-prepared - indeed anti-prepared, if there is such a word - for office (and I'm counting Bush, who we at least knew had evil geniuses pulling his strings). No, no matter how far ahead Obama might be in the polls, it isn't far enough ahead to make me feel its safe to stay home on election day. It isn't enough for Obama to win, the win has to be so enormous and decisive that there is absolutely no question but that he won. In fact, I won't feel that we're entirely safe from a McCain/Palin presidency until Chelsea Clinton is sworn in in 2017.

By: leftcoastbob

leftcoastbob — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:30:13 -0800

Yesterday was the last day for Oregonians to register to vote so the student government at Portland Community College had (obviously well-trained) volunteers going around campus asking people if they're registered to vote. If anyone on campus had given them fraudulent info on their voter registration forms, would the GOP be up in arms to say that the student government was at fault? Of course not. Then why is everyone so quick to condemn ACORN? Isn't it the same scenario?

By: schroedinger

schroedinger — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:31:36 -0800

I read a particularly bizarre exchange between a door-to-door canvasser and a potential voter here: “I don’t want to sound like I’m prejudiced,” Ms. Mendive said. “I’ve never been around a lot of black people before. I just worry that they’re nice to your face but then when they get around their own people you just have to worry about what they’re going to do to you.” Ms. Vance responded: “One thing you have to remember is that Obama, he’s half white and he was raised by his white mother. So his views are more white than black really.” She went on to assure Ms. Mendive that she was so impressed with Mr. Obama the person, that she failed to notice the color of his skin anymore. It's a tactic you don't often see used by the liberal set: Rather than immediately admonishing someone for their prejudiced belief, you play it to your favor.

By: BitterOldPunk

BitterOldPunk — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:31:40 -0800

Aw, Jesus fuck. I just read the NY Times article lord_wolf linked to. *sigh* I'm a seventh-generation Alabamian who is voting for Obama. It is the first time I am voting for a Presidential candidate with such enthusiasm. I like the man, I like his policies, and I see him as a way forward out of the horrible morass that ignorant mouth-breathers like those quoted in the NY Times article (and the politicians who pander to them) have led my nation into. There's a lot of good people down here, and we're really fucking tired of fighting the battles of the last generation. God bless Barack Obama, God bless America, and God save Alabama from itself. Now I'm gonna go take a shower.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:35:06 -0800

ACORN, which most conservatives had never heard of before conservatives made it the bugaboo of the financial crisis. Now they're making ACORN their catch-all socialist terrorist election-stealing bad guys. What do you expect when you try to help poor people? In American, that IS Socialism.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:35:31 -0800

It's a tactic you don't often see used by the liberal set: Rather than immediately admonishing someone for their prejudiced belief, you play it to your favor. There seem to be a number of lifelong Republicans and not so liberal people volunteering for Obama right now, so I think it a lot of cases it's probably more honesty about their own prejudices than playing to someone else's.

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:44:50 -0800

Let's also make sure to remember that as recently as 2006, McCain was a vocal supporter of ACORN.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:46:02 -0800

How many people choose not to bother to vote because they know it's a hopeless cause for their candidate? As many as choose to on the basis of that information, as is their right. How many people in California choose not to vote because they already know the electoral outcome has been decided before they even get to cast a vote? As many as choose to on the basis of that information, as is their right. Talk about your vote not counting. In both of these instances, assuming what was reported was accurate "My vote doesn't matter" would be an accurate statement of the facts on the ground. Not some terrible bugbear that we mustn't mention, but the plain and simple truth. The idea that you can improve the integrity of an election by denying people accurate information that they'd like to have seems ludicrous to me. More information that's accurate can only improve people's decisions over (Vote for A, vote for B, vote for other, stay home), not harm it. More (accurate) information gets you decisions that are more in line with the voter's actual interests as they understand them. You don't like the decisions that some people make when they receive a particular variety of accurate information. You don't like that, knowing that the presidency is already decided, some people in CA or HI might stay home instead of voting -- that staying home is, under those circumstances, more consonant with their interests as they understand them than going to vote is. But what people do with information is fundamentally none of your business.

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:48:34 -0800

Am I the only one who thinks "Weather Report" each time I see "Weather Underground"? And wondering, if only for a split-second every time, why Obama's association with early jazz fusion would be such a bad thing??

By: lunit

lunit — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:49:45 -0800

Drinking game suggestions? Anyone?

By: Bonzai

Bonzai — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:51:30 -0800

Avenger: "I remember reading another poster on FreeRepublic who once said that he or she "dreamed of a world without polls". I was startled at how shockingly revealing that statement was." Well, I dream of a world without polls as well. I think there are too many people who don't bother making up their own minds, but just follow the polls. I am sure there are people who only like Obama because he's the frontrunner, and I am sure their are Republicans who will motivated to vote by this same fact. Both seem like stupid reasons to vote to me. You know who else wanted to get rid of the polls? Hitler. Wait. That might have been the Poles.

By: Brandon Blatcher

Brandon Blatcher — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:52:59 -0800

From the NYT article: “I’ve always been against the blacks,” said Mr. Rowell, who is in his 70s, recalling how he was arrested for throwing firecrackers in the black section of town. But now that he has three biracial grandchildren — “it was really rough on me” — he said he had “found out they were human beings, too.” Change comes, but sometimes it's slow.

By: maxwelton

maxwelton — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:53:35 -0800

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:54:05 -0800

Sips My friends Middle class Tax cut Experience Jobs Health care Shot Ayers Radica McCain obviously avoids contact with Obama Obama mocks something McCain just said

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:56:30 -0800

God damn I am a genius. My coworkers and I just has this brilliant idea. Stay with me. You wanna cinch this election for Obama? Obama only needs to do one thing: Buy the rights to two episodes of Little House on the Prairie. Where Mary breaks her glasses. And later the one where she goes blind. The two saddest episodes of any TV show ever. Then he needs to buy three hours of prime-time one and half hour for each episode. Instead of any campaign ads he simply has a half hour fire-side chat call-in after each episode. Obama would then comfort Americans with this giant nation wide cathartic therapy session. I swear Bin Laden would turn himself in after seeing Mary telling Pa she'd gone blind. Obama: "We have a call from... Pakistan?" Bin Laden: "Hello? Sniff... " Obama: "It's... it's okay. It's gnna be alright...go ahead caller." Bin Laden: "First time caller here... sob." Obama: "It's okay Pakistan. America is here to help." Bin Laden: "Mary... she going to be blind now? By the great profit, blessed be his name, this seems so unfair..." Obama: "She has Pa. And Ma and Half Pint. You have us. We here for eachother during this time of world crisis." Bin Laden: "Will... she... will Mary get into the special school... for the little blind children!? Oh sweet Allah, may his justice and love be upon us, please tell me WILL SHE FIND A HUSBAND!" Obama: "With the love and support of her family and community... yes... the answer is yes. Mary will start a family. it will be tough. But, Pakistan?" Bin Laden: "Sniff... I am still here." Obama: "I promise you we are all in this together and together, with th greatness of America, we shall see that Mary, Pa and Ma and Half Pint will thrive even through the most dire of circumstances. With Obama/Biden in 2008 THE NELLIE OLSONS OF THIS WORD WILL NOT PREVAIL! I Promise you. Now pleases stay tuned, if we win on Tuesday, the following Wednesday we will run a special episode of Little House on The Prairie. Mary's wedding."

By: Saxon Kane

Saxon Kane — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:58:16 -0800

tkchrist: Good plan, but you made an error. It's the Republicans who worship "the great profit."

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:59:55 -0800

Holy crap, Tehanu, is this drinking game called "Who Can Get Alcohol Poisoning First"?

By: Postroad

Postroad — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:01:01 -0800

The best part? all the pundits and all the polls show that the independents and undecided detest name calling and want issues addressed so that the more the GOP continues the sniping, the better things go for Obama. As fort ACORN--here is what is behind it all http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/10/10289_the_acorn_controversy.html

By: Big_B

Big_B — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:03:20 -0800

As a Sacramento resident who lives in McGlashan's district I am disgusted at this. I just wrote my first letter (since 3rd grade) to an elected official. Roberta McGlashan just motivated a voter to get off his ass.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:03:30 -0800

I see Obama every time I'm in Hollywood If he could be there all the time, Man, you know he would. He's always at Universal Studios Enjoying all the rides And I saw him touring Paramount And bothering the guides. He's often at sitcom tapings Laughing and applauding As he plans a presidency Won by ACORN's election frauding. You see him in the wax museum Staring at the stars And then its off to the Hard Rock To goggle at guitars. You will see Obama on Vine Street At the Mann Chinese Theater And then it's off to Musso and Franks Where's he's a frequent eater. He's written several screenplays To pitch to CAA And he likes to drive his Porsche Down the Golden State Freeway. He'd be happy to be president And if it happens, good, But he'd be antsy in the White House As he'd miss Hollywood.

By: cimbrog

cimbrog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:08:07 -0800

Do people really only go to the booth to vote for President? There are lots of other things to cast a vote for or against on your ballot, many of which will affect you at a more personal level than the presidential race. I cannot favorite this enough. Feel like your vote for president is worthless? I know you've got at least 1 house member to vote for, a 1 in 3 chance there's a senator to vote for and god knows how many local offices to vote for. And how about those issues? Wanna pass some school levees? Statewide smoking ban? The president doesn't put in the order to get your road repaved, folks.

By: cjorgensen

cjorgensen — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:08:45 -0800

ROU_Xenophobe: You're presuming unbiased unmanipulated accurate information. Also, exit polls should have no influence on how a person votes, (yes, in my opinion) yet they do. The information that you find so valuable to people shouldn't (again, my opinion) have anything to do with how a person votes. This is an election. It's something that we, as a nation, should be deciding together, not some people in Maine and Florida before California and Hawaii even get to weigh in. Exit polls are too screwed up, inaccurate, biased, and uncertain to have any real value. They will call a poll for a candidate based on what replies they get, regardless of whether the information they have is truthful or even complete. Again, I point to Florida. Exit polls serve no purpose other than to provide the media with something to report as it's happening. They are disruptive, invasive, and dishonest. I think the process is too important not to get right. If this means we can't have the results before it's actually over I don't think anyone is harmed by this. Wouldn't it be a shame if the election was decided by votes the cast?

By: Miko

Miko — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:09:35 -0800

How many people choose not to bother to vote because they know it's a hopeless cause for their candidate? How many people in California choose not to vote because they already know the electoral outcome has been decided before they even get to cast a vote? Talk about your vote not counting. Exit polls deprive people of their voice. Nah. If anyone actually does stay home because of polling (and I'm not sure they do), that's their choice - so their vote gets counted exactly as it should, as that of someone who didn't care enough to cast it. People should vote regardless of whether the candidate is up, down, or even. Anyone who bothers to learn even a little bit about elections knows about eleventh-hour surprises; when I went to bed in 2004, Al Gore was President-elect. Glad I voted anyway, or the election wouldv'e been even easier to steal. It's regrettable if people choose not to vote, but strategists often say that an uncast vote is a vote for the status quo, and I think that's a completely accurate way to read it. On the topic of voting, lats week's New Yorker piece "Rock, Paper Scissors: How We Used to Vote"blew my mind. I almost FPPd it. The voting standards of America's past make today's look like sheer perfection. It's astounding. McCain would be better off not mentioning Ayres, but he's between a rock and a hard place. If he doesn't mention it, he won't have a chance to spread the message, and he'll look like a total wuss who couldn't stand up to Obama's challenge to "say it to my face." If he does, he'll be stepping into a planned counterattack (with plenty of firepower). It's a checkmate. And finally, one thing that's been on my mind in watching and listening to these right-wing attacks has just been a sense of despair about people's reasoning. I certainly believe there are legitimate and honest viewpoints on right and left. But I have a very hard time believing that hard-right nutsos can honestly believe the messages they're spewing. If they do, their ability to read and critically evaluate information is so severely handicapped that, were they children, they'd be evaluated for special-needs support in reading and language arts. If they believe this stuff, their credulity is childlike. I give a bit of a pass to the ignorant, the uninformed, the politically disengaged, the poor -- people who really have been disenfranchised by the entire political process for so long that they only follow vague and shallow messages anyway. The people who are most deeply disturbing, though, are not those folks - they are the fairly well educated, well-spoken folk who read right-wing emails and parrot easily refuted talking points as if true, the people who feign (or really have) distrust for clear, demonstrable facts as reported in the mainstream media. I heard a non-crazy-sounding caller to "The Diane Rheim Show" yesterday state that Obama was "not an American citizen, and the Democratic Party is covering that up." I mean, come on, folks - any educated person who is politically active enough to be calling and emailing about the campaign and believes that stuff to be true has some diagnosable mental dysfunctions, and it's time to point that out in clear and certain terms. Debate the merits of the different platforms all you want, but good God, don't expect us to believe your horseshit. Or even to believe that you believe it.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:14:25 -0800

‘Just this weekend, John McCain vowed to 'whip Obama's you-know-what' at the debate' I initially read this as McCain vowed to whip OUT Obama's you-know-what at the debate. “I don’t want to sound like I’m prejudiced,” Ms. Mendive said. “I’ve never been around a lot of black people before. I just worry that they’re nice to your face but then when they get around their own people you just have to worry about what they’re going to do to you.” Fear of a black penis seems to be running high in this election.

By: gompa

gompa — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:14:40 -0800

That video from Al Jazeera is hilarious. Agreed, but I'm not sure who the joke's on. In any case, I could've sworn the thing was an outtake from Mississippi Burning. I honestly didn't know people still said nih-gruhs.

By: sondrialiac

sondrialiac — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:16:46 -0800

If they do, their ability to read and critically evaluate information is so severely handicapped that, were they children, they'd be evaluated for special-needs support in reading and language arts. Not if their school's funding were eviscerated years ago by far-right anti-public education politicians. Wait a second...!

By: milkrate

milkrate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:19:30 -0800

Why "Hollywood"? Because "gay weirdos" is just a bit too crass.

Lee Atwater: "By 1968 you can't say '[n-word]'-- that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. ''And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me -- because obviously sitting around saying, 'We want to cut this,' is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than [n-word]'"

By: DevilsAdvocate

DevilsAdvocate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:19:30 -0800

Also, exit polls should have no influence on how a person votes, (yes, in my opinion) yet they do. The information that you find so valuable to people shouldn't (again, my opinion) have anything to do with how a person votes. Isn't this the same argument made by those who oppose requirements to label genetically modified foods as such? I don't think people's decisions should be affected by this particular information, therefore people should not be provided with such information.

By: effwerd

effwerd — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:20:12 -0800

When Bush was put into office by judicial coup, our conservative friend were quite bullying about it. Suck it up, they said. You lost, now live with it. I've been preparing for an Obama win by promising myself I will not say "How does it feel to be out of touch with mainstream America?" to all of my Republican friends and family.

By: DU

DU — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:22:01 -0800

Feel like your vote for president is worthless? I know you've got at least 1 house member to vote for, a 1 in 3 chance there's a senator to vote for and god knows how many local offices to vote for. And how about those issues? Exactly. And not only that, but let's say somehow there are no issues or Congresspeople on your ballot (which is BS, but stick with me): An election, especially a Presidential one, especially especially one of this magnitude, isn't a simple binary value. The margin is the mandate. If Obama wins by .1%, he's President. If Obama wins by 10%, he's God (at least for 18 months).

By: Miko

Miko — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:22:17 -0800

exit polls should have no influence on how a person votes, (yes, in my opinion) yet they do. They shouldn't? Says who, other than you? What does it matter to you why someone else votes? If you are concerned about how others "should" vote, then beat the streets as a volunteer while you still have time to convince them. America's universal suffrage means that everyone has the right to vote - or choose not to vote - and what other people think they "should" do with their vote is really immaterial. I personally agree with your feeling that it would be great if everyone did vote regardless of what the expected outcome was; I deplore people who refuse to vote for any reason; and I suspect some people do vote as a reaction to the overdog/underdog ratio in the exit polls. But that's not something within my power to control; those people have all the rights and responsibilities I do, and they're entitled to use their vote in the way they see fit. Another reason exit polls can be important is when an election is contested. Exit polls are much more accurate than pre-election polling, as they poll actual voters, not likely voters, and because the die has been cast and any last-minute changes are behind us. This can be rather important in areas where there is a suspicion of fraud. When exit poll results run counter to the actual reported election results, something's rotten in Ohio in 2004. It can be the data that spurs an investigation or a recount. And it is true that, regardless of what's happening with the charismatic megafauna offices like President, there are always local representatives on the ballot, and in some states, there are important ballot questions, too - ones which may affect your taxes, infrastructure, school system, etc. Of course people should go out to vote on these offices and questions. If they don't, though, exit polls aren't to blame - their own inclinations, or simple lack of education about what's on the ballot, are the culprits.

By: Miko

Miko — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:25:03 -0800

The margin is the mandate. Beautifully phrased, and true.

By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:25:15 -0800

This campaign is getting too heated... (conceivably nsfw)

By: Kickstart70

Kickstart70 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:25:50 -0800

My prediction: - Obama wins, though not a landslide - Within the first two months, at least two major attempts at assassination foiled easily - Within six months, a major assassination attempt that nearly succeeds - A cascading effect of right-wing control of media, such that within the first two years of his mandate we see right-wing media far worse than appeared under Clinton's two terms (of which we are still coping with) - A media-driven takeover of the midterms elections by Republicans, who stonewall all progress - Two years of a lame duck Democrat in the White House It all reminds me so very much of Carter's great promise but lack of impact. Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-Obama. I just don't see JFK reborn.

By: The Whelk

The Whelk — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:26:18 -0800

Is this gonna be tonight's debate thread? If you're in New York and fancy a nice place to watch the debate with your other Pinko-Commie-Queerlovin'-Terrorist friends, the Museum Of Sex is unveiling a friend's painting and screening the debate. No cover. Free hard cider. MuSex Events I'll be there.

By: joe lisboa

joe lisboa — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:28:17 -0800

In McCain's case, he just wants to finally outrank his father. You really got me thinking with this. * George W. Bush = big-time daddy issues w/ President father; - Result: War with Iraq to compensate * John S. McCain III = big-time daddy issues w/ Admiral father; - Result: War with Iran to compensate * Barack H. Obama = raised by a single mother and her parents; - Result: A moving biography dedicated to the biological father he barely ever got to know, much less develop some whacked-out Oedipal complex about AND the clear decision to provide a stable home with a loving paternal presence for his own two children I'm no Freudian but I think there's something to this.

By: Combustible Edison Lighthouse

Combustible Edison Lighthouse — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:29:06 -0800

And it's fascinating to compare that to this NYT article on the views of some Southern voters. The best part of that article is the fact that they found a confused old doofus who just happened to be named Glenn Reynolds.

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:29:39 -0800

How many people choose not to bother to vote because they know it's a hopeless cause for their candidate? Your problem isn't exit polls, it's a lack of electoral reform that has left you with a broken and obsolete form of democracy. You should instead campaign to upgrade to one of the better systems of democracy that includes proportional representation - then it doesn't matter if you know you're a minority, your vote still matters, and you still get representation because of your vote. (And as a super power-bonus, it chops off the head of the two-party system and it's poison, so instead of a two-headed one-horse race, you get multiple parties covering a vast array of viewpoints, forced to negotiate with each other over legislation. Much like national healthcare, it's a thing of almost unending win that some people love to hate)

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:30:04 -0800

I've been preparing for an Obama win by promising myself I will not say "How does it feel to be out of touch with mainstream America?" to all of my Republican friends and family. It's going to be hard. Here's a list of things we could say, just to twist the knife, but probably shouldn't: You lost, get over it. Such and such is why Republicans can't win a national election. If you don't support Obama, you're un-American. If the Republicans ever win again, we'll have given in to what the terrorists want. Etc. etc. etc. There's a massive stockpile of bullying rhetoric that conservatives have used over the past few years, all rooted in the idea that they didn't simply win an election, but, despite their consistently narrow victories, they were nonetheless given a mandate by true Americans and that their policies reflected the beliefs and ideas of what is somehow the real America. It's hard not to want to throw that back in their face. But, as Pyrrhically satisfying as it might be, I won't do it, because that sort of stuff is poison. I've had it poured down my throat for too long to actually want to poison someone else with it.

By: taz

taz — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:30:40 -0800

More on ACORN: ACORN Smear is Effort to Cover Up Massive GOP Push to Undermine 2008 Elections Through Coast-to-Coast Vote Suppression one choice bit: "The Philadelphia Daily News has reported that fliers showed up in African-American neighborhoods of Philadelphia recently showed up warning residents that undercover cops would be prowling the polling places, arresting would-be voters with so much as an unpaid traffic ticket on his or her record." And "Editor and Publisher" asks, why does it seem to be a greater sin to be suspected of voter registration mistakes than to publicly engage in voter suppression efforts?

By: cashman

cashman — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:34:18 -0800

their ability to read and critically evaluate information is so severely handicapped that, were they children Someone mentioned it in a thread somewhere on here a few weeks ago. They are functioning like children. That's not to be dismissive, it's saying they are processing things like a child might when it runs into information it doesn't like. The hyperbole, ignoring obvious facts, completely believing things they want to believe while ignoring the reality of a situation.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:34:23 -0800

Avenger writes "I think the real antipathy against polls goes deeper on the Right, however. If you think about it, extreme Rightism (or extreme Nationalism or Fundamentalism of any kind) takes a very dim view of people's opinions. Opinions are something that are supposed to align with Authority (God, the State, the King, the Pope, etc.) not something that you're supposed to, you know, just have on your own. " Note that this is only true if the polls are against them. Otherwise, the political Right is more than happy to cite how high Bush's approval ratings are, for example (well, at least back in 2003, when they were high).

By: captainsohler

captainsohler — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:37:47 -0800

Russia invades Poland? How many times in history has Poland been invaded? Too many.

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:37:58 -0800

re Acorn: then you are to blame. I don't want to hear any excuses about "legal requirements to submit the paperwork anyway". This is why I want to see people hold the US Post Office accountable for their share of bad voter registration forms. They've been awfully quiet. What do they have to hide? posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:01 PM on October 15 [+] [!] [on preview: I realized that you are probably being sarcastic and my irony metre was off - but I finished writing the comment first, so thought I would post it for the general point.] Acorn is legally required to submit all voter registrations because if they weren't there would be huge potential for them to abuse the system. They could, for instance, tell millions of people that they are registering to vote, but never hand those registrations in and thus disenfranchise people. Not that Acorn would ever do this, but other groups could and it would be far more dangerous than a few poorly filled out registrations. But Acorn is also very worried about voter fraud. Which is why they have spent millions of dollars (that they could be using to do other charity work) to check the voter registrations themselves and flag questionable ones for the election officials. Some of these warnings have been ignored by those officials. But a whole lot of the criticism about bad registrations is actually based on bad registrations which Acorn pointed out were bad. As Acorn has pointed out, they are the ones who have been defrauded by bad employees who were paid but didn't do their job (get legitimate voters registered) - they are the victims, not the perpetrators of this fraud. -------------------- To be honest - I had never heard of Acorn before these last few weeks. And now the more I learn about them, the more I am impressed by them. They are pretty damn awesome, and I would love it for a Canadian branch to start up (and a British branch, and an everywhere-else branch). I need a new career path - maybe I should look into community organizing. It's kind of like being a mayor,* only you actually do some good in the world. *no offence intended to dedicated city politicians - but the parallel structure was too nice to not use.

By: lord_wolf

lord_wolf — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:39:35 -0800

Change comes, but sometimes it's slow. Exactly. And that's what I took from that article: that all the people the reporter quoted first were a set up to make that last guy's epiphany that much more powerful. There was a time when I would have reacted to his comments with vitriol: "You goddamned idiot, of course we're human beings." But the older somewhat wiser wolf wants to give him a hug and say, "Welcome to the family of humanity, brother. We've been waiting for you."

By: drezdn

drezdn — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:43:05 -0800

If Obama wins, I hope it happens with a no doubt landslide, as it's hard to blame a five percent difference or more on voting errors.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:49:12 -0800

delmoi writes "The alternative would be to cease registration entirely, which is exactly what the republicans want." I can see the teasers now: "The organization that doesn't want you to register to vote! More at 11."

By: Brandon Blatcher

Brandon Blatcher — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:55:14 -0800

But the older somewhat wiser wolf wants to give him a hug and say, "Welcome to the family of humanity, brother. We've been waiting for you." and then you eat him?

By: vhsiv

vhsiv — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:59:11 -0800

"In McCain's case, he just wants to finally outrank his father. This is his last chance and it seems highly likely that he never will." But Johnny got the heiress -- did either his Dad or Grandpa manage ever to be kept men with seven homes in 3 time zones and 9 personal vehicles?

By: teraflop

teraflop — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:04:23 -0800

I personally have no problem with exit polling, but I'm surprised that the results aren't embargoed until the polls close (as is the case in the UK, for instance). Plus, stopping a poll early means you run the risk of having a sampling bias based on when voters show up. Speaking of which, having never participated in an exit poll, how are they normally conducted? Surely any competent organization could collect the data electronically and have an analysis ready within seconds, right?

By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:07:31 -0800

I'm surprised that the results aren't embargoed until the polls close (as is the case in the UK, for instance) Yes, this is a good idea.

By: MegoSteve

MegoSteve — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:08:57 -0800

I, too, hope they never nominate anyone besides Obama. Michelle Obama in 2016!

By: dsword

dsword — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:10:51 -0800

I bet he mentions Ayers in closing comments.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:13:55 -0800

I realized that you are probably being sarcastic and my irony metre was off - but I finished writing the comment first, so thought I would post it for the general point. My irony has been all too convincing lately. I really need to start taking into account the monstrous heaps of Absurd that the McCain campaign has been shoveling at us, and that comments such as mine - that I might think are pretty obvious exaggerations - are more or less par for the course from the right. Hell, with the official California GOP website calling for the waterboarding of a US Senator, and the Sacramento County GOP Party Chairman more or less says, "Hey, some are offended, some aren't", what do I have to work with here? How do you satirize the insane? The right's dogpile attack on ACORN sickens me to the core, given the cynical and desperate shenanigans they engaged in in 2004 and 2000. The same people who used to get intimidated and pushed around by local cops and GOP operatives are now getting organized and getting assistance in making their vote count, and it makes the GOP furious. They had their chance and blew it. But what gets to me the most about all this is, McCain hasn't even tried running a solid issues-based platform. His campaign managers actually revel in this underhanded crap. Palin's just a small part of this - she's nothing more than the physical manifestation of the cynical MO of Team McCain. What America wants doesn't matter, clearly, when this ACORN attack boils down to actually trying to block votes. On the flip side, this sort of crap is food for Obama campaigners and voters. It just gives them all the more determination to get people to the polls. But don't expect this to end when Obama does take the White House. The GOP has already paved the way for what will surely be legal challenges to the Obama presidency. FOX columnists have already declared beforehand that the election will be "stolen" (right, because every poll in the country is run by liberal propagandists, after all). Ah, well. I bet the dinosaurs were pretty hostile to the first mammals, too.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:15:48 -0800

The Permanent (Smear) Campaign: Conservatives realize that a successful Obama presidency could remake American politics. If Obama wins the election, they will try to destroy his presidency with lies, just as they sought to do to Bill Clinton.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:17:08 -0800

I'm surprised that the results aren't embargoed until the polls close (as is the case in the UK, for instance) Is it really that surprising? The country has partisan groups running their elections. States decide how to run a federal election. Voting machines fuck up. Paper ballots fuck up. There is all sorts of voter suppression. The US has no clue how to run an election.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:19:18 -0800

Who is Barack Obama, really? Giblets is glad you asked!

By: inigo2

inigo2 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:24:34 -0800

I bet he mentions Ayers in closing comments. Any idea who goes first / last?

By: inigo2

inigo2 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:25:19 -0800

I bet he mentions Ayers in closing comments. And (also) if McCain goes last, and says something like that (with no ability to respond by Obama), I'm gonna be pissed if Obama shakes his hand.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:29:28 -0800

billysumday writes "Get ready for the big debate switcheroo tonight. McCain won't bring up Ayers - in fact, he'll paint Obama as the uber-negative candidate, talk about how he's run more negative advertising than McCain, he'll accuse Obama of thuggery in regards to ACORN, and he'll call for a more civil campaign. He'll dole out a lot of straight talk, and he'll talk about honor, and about victory in Iraq, and his judgment on the surge, and all that stuff." It's a little late for that. If he does that, he will yet again be changing the messages coming out of his campaign, which contradict earlier messages. You can only get away with this for so long before voters lose confidence, as illustrated by the Clinton primary campaign.

By: snofoam

snofoam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:30:37 -0800

I bet he mentions Ayers in closing comments. No way. If he did this, every media outlet on earth would immediately announce that McCain is the biggest pussy of all time, ever.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:32:44 -0800

From the Pemanent Smear Campaign:

The outside groups arrayed against Obama have not exactly been models of competence and effectiveness this year. When it comes to assembling the dirt, John Boehner is no Newt Gingrich or Tom DeLay. Among all the insinuations that Obama might be a terrorist, furthermore, is a healthy does of red-baiting that is more silly than frightening ... And just as the increasingly hateful tone of the crowds at John McCain's rallies (especially when Sarah Palin is there to egg on the thugs) is turning off moderate voters, the anti-Obama forces' worst enemy will be their own craziness. As Garrett Epps wrote in the Prospect in 2002, Bill Clinton didn't destroy his enemies; he drove them insane, and they destroyed themselves.

This is important to remember - they can and probably will launch a mean-spirited opposition to anything President Obama tries to do, but we're not exactly dealing with political game masters here. Where Gingrich was Axis & Allies, Boehner is Risk.

By: birdherder

birdherder — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:33:19 -0800

I personally have no problem with exit polling, but I'm surprised that the results aren't embargoed until the polls close (as is the case in the UK, for instance). That has been the case in the US (at the state level) for the past few elections. The media will call states based on exit polls once the polls in the states close. They could wait to hold back everything until the last polls close in Western Alaska, but that is not really realistic in today's now now now US. It is also unnecessary, the only state in play in the West is Nevada. They networks won't call the election until Nevada unless Obama has already secured the 270 without needing Nevada (Nevada closes when California does so they'll automagically turn that state Blue at the second the polls close). If voters do stay home because they see on TV that their guy either already won or lost, it won't make a difference. It isn't like an extra McCain vote will make a difference in California because Obama is declared the winner of Florida. It only makes a difference this year in Nevada. Rather than outlaw exit polls, make them irrelevant. Many states have early voting now, the rest should do get with the program. I can vote a the grocery store by my house any time within a two week period starting on Monday. The polling places are conveniently located and have convenient hours. If there's a long line on Monday, then I could come back later in the week. If a machine is broken or they need more, they can get it taken care of while it still makes a difference. I can't remember the last time I actually voted on election day. Having elections on "the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November" may have been a good idea in the 18th century, but now? And while we're fixing when we vote, we should fix how we vote. The US sent a man to the moon, and the company that makes cash machines can't produce a receipt for voting machines? The voting system in this country is a disgrace. And people in normal country would be embarrassed by it. I was looking just now and found that 45% of eligible voters stayed home for Bush/Kerry in 2004. So 62M voted for Bush, 59M voted for Kerry, and 100M people couldn't be bothered to vote. I'm sure if you look at it at the state level in the swing states the Apathy Party vote by not voting would be even more striking.

By: Optimus Chyme

Optimus Chyme — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:39:53 -0800

But I have a very hard time believing that hard-right nutsos can honestly believe the messages they're spewing. If they do, their ability to read and critically evaluate information is so severely handicapped that, were they children, they'd be evaluated for special-needs support in reading and language arts. They believe every word of it. But it's not the special needs kids who grow up to be these low-information, email-forward-loving voters. It's the kids who were just plain fucking stupid. They could read, in theory, but they spent more time torturing animals down by the creek. They could do simple math but once high school began they took the easiest math course possible (typically pre-algebra, twice) and maybe passed it with a C-, after their mom called and complained about the D. Hell, the only Minnesotan I know who was planning on voting for McCain (before I informed her that she needed to actually register first) is a woman who has so far owned one book in her lifetime: Tim Allen's Don't Stand Too Close to a Naked Man. And is it better or worse that I don't think she even read it?

By: snofoam

snofoam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:41:20 -0800

You know what else is awesome about this debate? It's McCain's most likely chance to turn things around before election day, but Obama still has a half-hour block of primetime on October 29th. If the race tightens, he uses that time to tell us about the ponies we're gonna get. Landslide!

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:42:37 -0800

I just don't see JFK reborn. JFK didn't actually do a whole lot in his time as President other than inspire. He died too soon to get too deeply embroiled in Vietnam, for example. LBJ took the brunt of the blame for the events of the time, but it is entirely possible that things would have happened more or less exactly as they had even if JFK had survived. That said, I hope that there is not even an assassination attempt much less a successful attempt, but with Obama we at least know that Biden would be able to handle the job of POTUS from day one. That's one smart decision Obama already made on our behalf. The thing is, unless the Democrats get that 60 seat senate majority, even if Obama pops into town as President trying to do all the wonderful things that progressives imagine, he's not going to be magically able to accomplish a whole lot. Indeed, I think it is wise to remind ourselves that what many of us are hoping for out of Obama isn't some sort of miraculous shift to the left, but rather a degree of sanity and accountability returning to the White House. Even that might be too much to ask, but its still better than 1 and a half years of ailing, erratic President McCain followed by 2 and a half years of incurious President Palin.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:46:44 -0800

cjorgensen writes "I also have a huge damage with exit polls. I think they should be illegal." Exit polls are one way to examine whether there is actual voter fraud. It's not the smoking gun, but it can provide a basis to investigate. IIRC, exit polling is used this way in election monitoring around the world.

By: cimbrog

cimbrog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:48:04 -0800

If the race tightens, he uses that time to tell us about the ponies we're gonna get. I picture Obama on a magical pink pony riding on a road of rainbows as bluebirds sing his praise and the sun looks down approvingly. I don't know why.

By: matteo

matteo — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:49:46 -0800

"In McCain's case, he just wants to finally outrank his father. This is his last chance and it seems highly likely that he never will." But Johnny got the heiress -- did either his Dad or Grandpa manage ever to be kept men with seven homes in 3 time zones and 9 personal vehicles? for all his money (well, his wife's), McCain still has to salute his father's ghost. read Faith Of My Fathers, it's really transparent.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:51:12 -0800

inigo2 writes "Start from day 1 blaming Obama and the dems for anything and everything that goes wrong, from a drop in the DOW to a hangnail." To be fair, that also happened with W. Our current economic crisis sure didn't start with him, although he hasn't helped. I'm not defending Bush, but this is a common problem.

By: Brandon Blatcher

Brandon Blatcher — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:52:52 -0800

I was looking just now and found that 45% of eligible voters stayed home for Bush/Kerry in 2004. Hey, could you share that link? I've been meaning to look up that info...

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:53:29 -0800

Hell, the only Minnesotan I know who was planning on voting for McCain (before I informed her that she needed to actually register first) is a woman who has so far owned one book in her lifetime: Tim Allen's Don't Stand Too Close to a Naked Man. You don't need to register first. Minnesota has same-day registration. And I understand the Tim Allen book. After all, he did time in Minnesota.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:56:13 -0800

The Hollywood angle? See, "Muslim terrorist" was covert for "nigger." "Hollywood" is covert for "faggot." There doesn't need to be any logic, it's just that having failed with one kind of mud, they're trying with another.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:56:34 -0800

They could do simple math but once high school began they took the easiest math course possible (typically pre-algebra, twice) and maybe passed it with a C-, after their mom called and complained about the D. You promised not to tell anyone about that! I trusted you!

By: chunking express

chunking express — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:59:31 -0800

Terrorist wasn't a code word for Terrorist?

By: ericb

ericb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:03:13 -0800

I picture Obama on a magical pink pony riding on a road of rainbows as bluebirds sing his praise and the sun looks down approvingly. I don't know why. Because of this?

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:04:44 -0800

ardgedee writes "Obama's MU is vanishingly small (can you think of ANY American candidate who inspires unsolicited propaganda from so many popular artists?), and McCain's is the highest of any Republican's since Bob Dole's, although he looked much better in the earlier primaries." That's because he ran as a party outsider. He bucked the conventional wisdom of the GOP and ran his own campaign. Since gaining the approval of the party and the nomination, this is no longer true, and that's one of the reasons he's struggling so much. He had to abandon who he is politically which brings him so much success in order for his party to nominate him, and he's been straddling that line ever since, trying to play to both sides. Nobody is buying it this time around. If you campaign on authenticity and fail to be authentic, it causes serious image and credibility problems.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:06:44 -0800

Also, Sepia Mutiny has been writing about how Obama and McCain should probably try and push the "it's OK to be Muslim" thing a tiny bit. I don't see McCain doing that anytime soon, but Obama probably should. Maybe after he's elected.

By: Miko

Miko — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:07:35 -0800

I'm surprised that the results aren't embargoed until the polls close (as is the case in the UK, for instance) Just wanted to point out that the results, in fact, are embargoed in each district until the polls close. Vote counts aren't announced until then. Exit polls are a way to get early information and indications, but they are not the official results. They believe every word of it. But it's not the special needs kids who grow up to be these low-information, email-forward-loving voters. It's the kids who were just plain fucking stupid. They could read, in theory, but they spent more time torturing animals down by the creek. They could do simple math but once high school began they took the easiest math course possible (typically pre-algebra, twice) and maybe passed it with a C-, after their mom called and complained about the D. No; I don't think it is. It would be much easier and more convenient if it were the troglodyte sector. But in fact it's people who are to all appearances normal, who hold jobs in offices in your town, who participate in events, who read the paper. I'm not sure exactly what they believe, except that it's okay to pretend to believe anything as long as your guy wins. The hardest challenge I've had in discussions with righties is not getting them to see things my way; it's getting them to be honest about their own motivations as voters.

By: birdherder

birdherder — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:11:36 -0800

I was looking just now and found that 45% of eligible voters stayed home for Bush/Kerry in 2004. Hey, could you share that link? I've been meaning to look up that info... posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:52 PM on October 15 http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html.

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:11:40 -0800

Dollars to donuts the day after Obama wins the election... You folks who keep offering this bet... have you checked the price of donuts lately? Time for a new metric.

By: TheWhiteSkull

TheWhiteSkull — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:15:16 -0800

I think the McCain campaign may be approaching the point where whatever they do, positive or negative, act or don't act, damages them. It's like a mirror image of Dukakis in 1988. This debate could be their last chance to pull out of the tailspin (an experience McCain is already familiar with. sorry) That being said, does it make me a bad person that I secretly want to see Obama approach the podium on inauguration day, raise his fist in a black power salute and say "Ha! Fooled y'all, bitches! Kill Whitey!"? It would be America's real "brown note" moment.

By: ericb

ericb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:17:51 -0800

...pull out of the tailspin (an experience McCain is already familiar with. sorry) Well, he wasn't able to do so on five occassions (in million dollar jets).

By: cashman

cashman — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:24:09 -0800

does it make me a bad person Yes. Yes it does. BAD TheWhiteSkull.

By: i_cola

i_cola — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:29:22 -0800

Dollars to donut holes.

By: telstar

telstar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:30:10 -0800

And (also) if McCain goes last, and says something like that (with no ability to respond by Obama), I'm gonna be pissed if Obama shakes his hand. Why don't we just cut to the chase here? TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES!!

By: yhbc

yhbc — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:31:21 -0800

I'm still hoping for "'scuse me while I whip this out."

By: billyfleetwood

billyfleetwood — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:33:54 -0800

It doesn't matter at this point, it seems like Obama's winning the spite vote nomatter what. It cracks me up how the GOP is in denial as to how bad their boy Bush broke the thing. Forget the Jeremiah Wright smears... Jeremiah Wright himself could be running, and a lot of people would just hold their nose and give it a whirl. The fact that Obama just happens to be Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters all rolled up in one is just a happy accident. The thing about hitting Obama with the Ayers thing head on is that he doesn't even have to answer it well. Look at Palin and the Alaska-Russia foriegn policy gaffe. She answered that questionas badly as could be, and guess what? Noone has asked it since. And I'm not really putting much stock in the right wing whackos believing Obama is an arab muslim terrorist. These are excuses, not beliefs. People just say any old dumb shit they hear on the TV. It's like that one lady who thinks Sex and The city is just like her and her girlfriends, except she lives in Kansas, is married with 3 kids and is a customer service rep for the water dept. Their stated positions don't hold any water. Until I see a poll that shows 10% of Americans really believe that if Obama wins, Bin Laden will be the new host of the Tonight show, and we're changing the name of the NY Yankees to the New York Al Quedas, i'm not giving the wackos any play.

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:38:13 -0800

"'scuse me while I whip this out." Holy cats, if they used the Theme from Blazing Saddles as his inauguration song, I would probably die of joy.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:43:40 -0800

it's getting them to be honest about their own motivations as voters. miko its simple. Liberals are pussy fags. This is IT. This is the underlying and successful meme in Right Wing propaganda for the last 30 years. It used to be "Commie Fags." But the Right Wing doesn't even know what communism IS anymore. So it's now "Pussy fags." Except for a few old school hold outs who still go with "Commie Fag." This is THE defining difference as far as Righties are concerned. It has nothing to do with policy. It has nothing to do with principle... other than where principle intersects with not identifying with being a pussy fag. It certainly has nothing to with logic. Basically this is how the entire RNC went: "You're voting for Obama? What? Are you some sort of pussy faggot or something? No? Okay then. Her's your McCain/Palin button."

By: six-or-six-thirty

six-or-six-thirty — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:47:22 -0800

Although it's a partial derail... I actually feel some sympathy for the woman mentioned in schroedinger's NYTimes link up above. I've luckily not had to deal with that scenario at all while canvassing (although college students in my area seem to be maddeningly apathetic), but I have had to make a somewhat similar decision. With my grandparents. They seem to be convinced that he is a Muslim (although they are aware he's not 'an Arab') and dislike his 'heritage'. I think that if I came across something like the woman in the article I would either get incredibly angry or just have to leave. (I am really not all that good of a canvasser). With my grandparents I don't think the option of not talking to them really existed. I went with a gentle but mildly upset response that, I hope, will manage not to garner any ill-will but will also provoke some thought from them. Allowing some racial prejudice or, worse, slur, so that you can get some point across is rightfully difficult and incredibly unpleasant. It's a compromise, and it's still one that I feel pretty upset about allowing. I'm not sure which stakes are higher at this point: a Barack presidency and my grandparents not disowning me or allowing blatant racism to run about unchecked. Then again, there's still a couple of weeks for me to get angry again and send a scathing response.

By: Sailormom

Sailormom — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:54:21 -0800

is this seat taken?

By: lostburner

lostburner — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:57:48 -0800

I bet he mentions Ayers in closing comments. Obama's winning tactic is to declaw the attacks before McCain can present them, so that McCain looks wimpy if he doesn't and foolish if he does. "John, you've been leveling some pretty vigorous and inflammatory attacks on my character, honesty and associations recently, and you've promised to bring them to me this evening. So, let's get this out in the open. "You've said that X, which is baseless because _____________. "You've said that Y, which is baseless because _____________. "You've said that Z, which is baseless because _____________. "If there are any other points you'd like to discuss, you can bring them up, but Americans are concerned about what's going on in the country and we owe them the respect of having our political discourse be about issues, records, and ideas rather than about name-calling and finger-pointing. [Segue into the issues]"

By: bunnytricks

bunnytricks — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:03:41 -0800

That being said, does it make me a bad person that I secretly want to see Obama approach the podium on inauguration day, raise his fist in a black power salute and say "Ha! Fooled y'all, bitches! Kill Whitey!"? It would be America's real "brown note" moment. I'm kind of hoping for Obama's walk to the podium to mirror O-Ren Ishii's march into the club, with Barack flanked by Bill Ayers and Michelle Obama decked out in fatigues and trailed by a mixed crew of Nuwabians and anarchists. With a haughty sneer he'll announce Hakim Bey will be the first to fill the newly created position of Sex Education Czar and proclaim smiles to be the common currency of New Zero Amerika. That'd be awesome.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:08:29 -0800

It's the kids who were just plain fucking stupid. They could read, in theory, but they spent more time torturing animals down by the creek. They could do simple math but once high school began they took the easiest math course possible (typically pre-algebra, twice) and maybe passed it with a C-, after their mom called and complained about the D. Nah, here's the thing: it's really not just these folks. I know I mention my parents' crazy-ass politics all the time (and yes, I've discussed my mom issues with a therapist over the years!), and while it's true they are odd ducks in their own way -- i.e., educated, well-traveled professionals in the arts, residents of ultra-liberal Santa Fe, Democrats their whole adult lives who turned hard neocons after 9/11 -- the fact that they have enthusiastically embraced the far right's toxic stew of lies, divisiveness, paranoia, bullying, and out-and-out racism illustrates that there's necessarily more to "Falling Down" conservatism (as Ironmouth nicely put it) than something as simple as plain backwoods ignorance. I apologize for getting all armchair psychologist about it; it's sort of the only way I can think about it, though, given that the question is so close to me personally. But there is, I am convinced, a visceral satisfaction to this line of thinking -- indeed, strictly speaking, it's more about feeling rather than thinking, and it's not confined to one slice of the demographic pie. It's emotionally childish and strangely narcissistic, dependent on an over-identification between the self and whichever authority figure is being embraced -- a relationship that is, in turn, dependent on total black-and-white delineation of Us vs. Them (by which Them is not merely an outsider, but the ENEMY, which necessitates a more-or-less permanent siege mentality -- for which see "News, FOX"). However, there's a flipside. For every hardcore wingnut with an Obama bin Lyin' poster, there are plenty of non-hardcore types who have voted Republican in the past but have been swayed in this election on the basis of outreach, issues, and character to vote for Obama. (This is partially why, I think, we're seeing a certain layer of Republicans so desperately backing the hell away from McCain now that the recent demons have been unleashed: they get that the quasi-brownshirt approach is actually out of sync with the current mainstream zeitgeist.) They have been inoculated, if you like, against the filth that's being spewed and will continue to be spewed -- folks like my boyfriend's brother (who I mentioned here), or the people discussed in Nate Silver's article about Obama outreach in Toledo here:

After Barack Obama's major economic address to 3,500 people in Toledo, the office several blocks away swelled to capacity with newly-fired up volunteers. One of the volunteers who'd come into Obama's office in recent weeks is Debrah's husband, such a staunch Republican that he'd long been donating monthly like clockwork. He'd even gone into the nearby Toledo McCain office, but when he visited it had been nearly empty. The explosive energy difference, Debrah told us, particularly in the past few weeks, made an impression on her husband, who planned to vote for Barack Obama.

These are people whose own personal experiences mean that they now simply aren't going to believe fringe-y emails about Obama being a baby-killing Muslim. And they're not going to believe that hordes of nefarious community organizers stole the election when they, themselves, went into that booth and voted for Obama. That doesn't mean, of course, that there aren't still plenty of inhabitants of Planet Hannity; there are, and they'll keep up their barrage of filth. But it does mean that their audience is shrinking rather than expanding; they have begun to expose themselves as the fringe we all know they are, rather than the majority they've long claimed themselves to be.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:13:39 -0800

CNN is now predicting Obama will win Virginia and the electoral college.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:19:48 -0800

Remember when McCain said he was giving up on Michigan to focus on Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Maine? Yeah, turns out, he's now given up on both Wisconsin and Maine.

The Republican National Committee is halting presidential ads in Wisconsin and Maine, turning much of its attention to usually Republican states where GOP nominee John McCain shows signs of faltering. The shift in advertising resources suggests that the RNC has decided to focus on defending reliably Republican-voting states against Obama's onslaught of advertising. Flush with money, Obama is outspending the joint efforts of the Republican Party and the McCain campaign by more than 2-1. McCain has led Obama in ad spending only in Iowa and Minnesota. But television stations in Minneapolis-St. Paul said Wednesday that Obama is increasing his spending and is committed to run ads through Nov. 3.

I don't know if McCain is aware of this, but generally, when you want to win in a state, you campaign there. What exactly is his strategy here? Is he stopping his campaign for the good of the economy again, only this time on a state-by-state basis?

By: quin

quin — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:24:43 -0800

After watching the McCain's "new" stump speech piece on last night's Daily Show, where they did a side by side demonstration of how it was almost verbatim the words used at the Republican convention, It was really brought home to me that these people are fucking insane. Seriously, they don't believe that we are paying attention at all, they don't think that anything they say will be fact checked, and they clearly don't understand that their words aren't drifting off into the ether, and that we can play these recordings back to them. This really started to be noticeable in the Bush administration, and it seems that this is yet another way that McCain is just trying to carry on his legacy.

By: Pantengliopoli

Pantengliopoli — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:25:24 -0800

CNN is now predicting Obama will win Virginia and the electoral college. But he's been left for dead before and has come roaring back. This election is not over yet," said CNN political editor Mark Preston. I see what you did there Mark... clever fella.

By: snofoam

snofoam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:26:50 -0800

Oh, shit. I thought the election was over. What do we do now?

By: snofoam

snofoam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:27:23 -0800

I also thought McCain was already dead. My bad.

By: sciurus

sciurus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:29:04 -0800

I'm going to see Toadies tonight. Let me know what happens.

By: twirlypen

twirlypen — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:35:41 -0800

I'm so proud of you, America. Every time I visit you, you seem so wonderful. Great people, amazing places, peanut-butter in chocolate... you truly are blessed. Every time though, I'd return home to Australia and would be at a loss to explain why you keep insisting on screwing yourselves. "Forgive them," I'd say, "they didn't know in 2000 that Bush was going to end up like he did. Don't worry. This time it's a nice easy choice- the guy who's mangled the last four years, or the actual war hero who has a plan." Well, you messed that up properly. Lord, did I have a hard time defending you then. You RE-elected Bush? That hurt. I'd been telling people for years how intelligent and friendly you all were, how we shouldn't judge America by its polititians, how the people aren't represented at all by their fool of a President. And then you go and shoot yourselves in the foot. I've gotta admit- it was tough to explain that one away. That's all history now though. What I want to say is how happy I am that you guys are really doing it this time. I never would have thought it. A candidate- a black candidate- campaigning on a platform of honesty and integrity, who doesn't accept lobbyists money, who voted against the war back in the day. And he's winning! You're doing it, America! Even the smears and the lies and the filth thrown at him isn't sticking. You're really doing it! So, America, I just want to say how proud I am of you. You're doing a fantastic job, and the whole world is behind you. Keep your eye on the ball now, lets finish this strongly, and then settle in for a party that's been eight years in the making.

By: quin

quin — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:36:43 -0800

Yeah, turns out, he's now given up on both Wisconsin and Maine. Good. I really didn't want to believe that he had much of a chance here, but when you get away from Milwaukee, there are McCain/ Palin signs everywhere. My neighborhood is full of them, and there are only a couple of Obama signs to be seen. I really have been hating the fact that I don't know if I can much respect most of my neighbors anymore.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:44:02 -0800

they didn't know in 2000 that Bush was going to end up like he did Oh yes they did. And they did it anyway. Twice. That's the amazing and terrifying thing about the last seven years. It was so predictable it was like a frigg'n script.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:46:23 -0800

“Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-Obama. I just don't see JFK reborn” JFK was overrated. But taking the gist of what you’re saying - you’ve never seen him work. Clinton, McCain - it’s tue, they had no idea what they were up against. There’s a nifty scene in Marvels where Galactus is about to devour the planet and the news is interviewing this old black WWII vet about his take and he thinks that Captain America can save them. But the words he uses I think are appropriate to Obama: “Just find him. I’ve seen him fight. Just find the man.” “I’ve always been against the blacks,” said Mr. Rowell,” Man, seems I’m always against the blacks too. Taking my knights, forcing my bishop off to one side and blocking everything up with their pawns. Don’t even get me started on the queens. “So in the interest of preserving fair elections I do think exit polls should be outlawed.” The press too. They say a lot of things that could influence elections. We should outlaw them as well. “Alot of posters over at FreeRepublic are already making vague threats against Obama's life...” “What will the whackjobs do if Obama wins?” I’d say they better hope they have a good dental plan. I’d be happy to invite any of them out to my garage and we can have a nice chat about that. Straighten some things out. Typically though most of those folks say things like that exactly because they don’t want to do anything. They want to be seen as tough. That’s the goal. Not actual execution of any plan or action. And when it comes to it, most people don’t really want to play at those stakes even if they actually have the means. Sometimes especially if they have the means. (Reminds me of the scene from Tombstone - are you going to jerk that pistol and go to work or just stand there and bleed?). Hell if they had the balls or their words carried any conviction they’d be in Iraq or Afghanistan now anyway, yeah?

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:47:58 -0800

cjorgensen writes "Exit polls are too screwed up, inaccurate, biased, and uncertain to have any real value." I'd like to see some data backing this conclusion. Otherwise, you're sorta talking out your butt.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:50:50 -0800

“And he's winning! You're doing it, America! Even the smears and the lies and the filth thrown at him isn't sticking. You're really doing it!” We’re sort of like the good natured monster in the Japanese serial movies that gets his ass kicked by the bad-guy monster for a while ...until he gets mad. America: the good guy monster.

By: LMGM

LMGM — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:51:30 -0800

Hi y'all, I just noticed something while watching CNN International: whenever the US-based coverage is about to switch to Lou Dobbs—even just for a momentary check-in before his show—CNN Int't cuts away for International Update. I'm guessing this has to do with Lou Dobbs being the CNN version of a conservative / xenophobic blowhard (kinda like O'Reilly-Lite™). Anyway, sorry if this is a bit off topic. I was watching the lead-up coverage to the 3rd debate when I noticed this Dobbs-Avoidance-Strategy.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:55:43 -0800

CNN is now predicting Obama will win Virginia and the electoral college. Some media outlets have skewed their reporting to make the race seem closer than it is, and CNN may be doing it, too. Is their data available? Pollster has Obama ahead by 4%+ in Colorado, Florida, and Ohio, and CNN has them as tossups. Yeah, turns out, he's now given up on both Wisconsin and Maine. McCain's plan is a white flag of surrender and that is not what our Republicans need to hear today, that's for sure. for all his money (well, his wife's) Well, his mobbed-up, convicted felon father-in-law's.

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:56:58 -0800

Obama, he’s half white and he was raised by his white mother. So his views are more white than black really. So he could the one to finally teach those uppity negroes how to behave? Interesting vote-getting tactic.

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:58:29 -0800

Pollster has Obama ahead by 4%+ in Colorado, Florida, and Ohio, and CNN has them as tossups. A lot of the maps I've seen use 5% as their threshold. Less than that is scored as 'even'. I don't know if they're engineering it to look close, or if they're just adjusting for the Diebold Effect.

By: Rykey

Rykey — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:01:57 -0800

Yet, the polls predict a landslide, hinted at by early voting. I've said this before, but polltakers are not election-day voters. On top of that, the early voting trend seems to be the most popular among Obama supporters, so that's a poor predictor. I hope I'm wrong, but I will be very, very surprised if Obama wins.

By: matteo

matteo — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:08:45 -0800

JFK was overrated. "was"? as "when he was running"? or "when he was President"? he certainly wasn't overrated when he was running, back then he was the rich-boy hawk son of an appeaser and chummy with the McCarthyites, deeply disliked by the liberals and the surviving New Dealers (including Eleanor Roosevelt). they wanted Adlai to run for the third time (then proceeding to get clobbered for the third time, one fears), not the Kennedy kid. as President he was hardly overrated, if anything he got some regularly bad press (except from his buddies like Ben Bradlee), and when he died he was not that popular and hardly a shoo-in for victory in '64 (he also appeared in the process of dropping LBJ from the ticket due to the Bobby Baker scandal). once murdered, yes, he was indeed sainted and therefore necessarily overrated. but praise is cheap in politics when you're praising a dead man. think of Lincoln getting killed after two years and ten months, though, instead of the four years and one month he actually served. had Lincoln died after a thousand days, he'd be remembered as the worst US President ever. maybe even as the last one.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:11:31 -0800

I hope I'm wrong, but I will be very, very surprised if Obama wins. Very, very surprised? Why's that? Is there some data indicating a different trend then, say, every poll in the country that brings you to this conclusion? Of course polls aren't ballots. But really, where is this disbelief coming from?

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:13:48 -0800

chunking express writes "Also, Sepia Mutiny has been writing about how Obama and McCain should probably try and push the 'it's OK to be Muslim' thing a tiny bit. I don't see McCain doing that anytime soon, but Obama probably should." Yes, but this is known as getting "in the weeds." Unless Obama's going to give another groundbreaking speech on race and religion, it's not a good idea to even bring it up. This is unfortunate, but it's always bad to try to get into "not that there's anything wrong with that" conversation in politics during a national campaign, particularly in responding to an attack with a bad assumption built in. Other people should object to the idea that there's something wrong with being a Muslim, however, like Sepia.

By: LooseFilter

LooseFilter — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:17:45 -0800

I will be very, very surprised if Obama wins. Obama could be polling up 30% or more, for the past six months, and I'll still be surprised if he wins. I'm just sort of amazed that America is on the cusp of electing an intelligent, educated, intellectually curious, proven capable individual. That will stun me no matter how long or short the odds.

By: Countess Elena

Countess Elena — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:18:50 -0800

Alot of posters over at FreeRepublic are already making vague threats against Obama's life... I don't doubt it. I hope Obama remembers Benazir Bhutto and listens to his security people, the way she didn't, to keep himself safe. But I was thinking about this just today. You know whose assassination, or assassination attempt, would really ruin things for progressives? McCain's. Think about it. If McCain was shot or shot at, he could step effortlessly (or posthumously) into the role of soldier under fire. The nation would recoil in horror from whatever the shooter claimed to stand for -- or whatever the media claimed the shooter stood for. It might be an elaborate false-flag operation by Freepers, or Shadowy Corporations, or a single paranoid schizophrenic with a gun, but it would be blamed on Obama's supporters, and by extension, him. (I outlined an entire terrible novel plot in my head, a real airport page-turner, but I feel like this plot has been done by somebody else.)

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:35:25 -0800

Well hello, debate thread.

By: matteo

matteo — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:39:17 -0800

and by the way, speaking of politicians who are capable of losing with honor and dignity: as much as I'm appalled by Barry Goldwater's ideas, when he ran he found himself trailing LBJ and right in the middle of the campaign one of LBJ's most trusted advisers and Texas mafia point man got busted by the cops in a public toilet with another man. against his advisers counsel, Goldwater refused to make the arrest an issue. I read Goldwater's biography -- an excellent book I recommend, by the way -- and in it the guy who once ranted of nuking the Kremlin remembers the time he decided not to rag on a father of six who got caught in a YMCA restroom and simply writes, "winning isn't everything". I still remember that story. (it's also important to remember that that case also is the one and only time Lady Bird Johnson disagreed in public with her husband; she wanted to put out a press release with very kind words for her and her husband's loyal friend; LBJ was horrified and said no, voters would not understand. she went ahead anyway. the world didn't fall. a few days later, even Billy Graham called Johnson and told him that Jesus was kind toward those who have moral lapses, and please let your friend know I'm praying for him. LBJ won in a landslide).

By: ormondsacker

ormondsacker — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:41:28 -0800

Obama could be polling up 30% or more, for the past six months, and I'll still be surprised if he wins. Well, sure - you're not taking into account the well-known 50-point Bradley effect.

By: The Card Cheat

The Card Cheat — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:43:49 -0800

I'm just sort of amazed that America is on the cusp of electing an intelligent, educated, intellectually curious, proven capable individual. That will stun me no matter how long or short the odds. This says less about Obama than it does about just how completely and thoroughly Bush and the Republicans have shit the bed over the past eight years. Which reminds me of one of my favourite MeFi comments of all time: "Beyond that, I will truly enjoy it when, during the traditional meeting of the once and future Presidents on Inauguration Day, Obama tells Bush, "you were so fucking bad at this job, they elected me, a black guy named Barack."

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:49:05 -0800

RealClearPolitics' final 2004 poll average had Bush leading Kerry by 1.5% of the popular vote; he won by 1.4%. Compare the charts for 2004 and 2008. There was a lot of back-and-forth in the 2004 race; Obama's led the entire race since he clinched in early June except for the week of the Republican convention. Since then Obama's been climbing and McCain's been nosediving. Obama's got a pretty steady lead of 7-8% in OpenLeft's tracking poll average over the last nine days; I suspect he's close to his ceiling. I'm not saying it's over, but an Obama win seems very probable to me. Unless McCain does something incredible in the debate (and manages to do it without looking erratic), Obama bungles something horrifically, or some devastating new revelation about Obama comes out, it's hard to imagine the momentum turning in the next 20 days. I'm not convinced a terrorist attack, capturing bin Laden, or attacking Iran would automatically benefit McCain. A lot of the maps I've seen use 5% as their threshold. Less than that is scored as 'even' Pollster has Obama leading by 6.1% in Florida and 7.1% in Colorado. It would help if CNN listed their data and classification criteria.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:52:47 -0800

Also, Obama's leading by 7% or more in averaged polls in enough states to give him 271 electoral votes, and leads by 4.0-6.77% in states with an additional 78 electoral votes.

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:54:35 -0800

Hell if they had the balls or their words carried any conviction they’d be in Iraq or Afghanistan now anyway, yeah? Just so.

By: vhsiv

vhsiv — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:58:31 -0800

Electoral-vote.com says that today it's Obama, 357 to 181.

By: oneirodynia

oneirodynia — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:00:35 -0800

Democrats need to push back against this anti-ACORN B.S. that's floating around the MSM. They hire people to register voters, and sometimes those registrations are erronious. Or "fraudulent". So what if the registrations are fraudulent. It's not as if a fraudulent registration somehow conjures up a fraudulent voting spectre that goes on to cast a fraudulent vote. It's pretty hilarious that somehow this has been spun in such a way that people somehow think it's going to have an impact in the actual election, when all it really means is a bunch of paperwork tossed in the shredder.

By: Greg Nog

Greg Nog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:11:02 -0800

when I went to bed in 2004, Al Gore was President-elect. Those were some nutty exit polls, all right!

By: furtive

furtive — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:12:34 -0800

Why? I think they should be mandatory. At this point, they are the only remaining sanity check on the vote. Until we have paper trails on our votes, we need external monitoring. As a Canadian who just voted using a paper ballot for the n^th time I must say you don't know how bass-ackwards that statement sounds. You've had eight years to fix the problem and from the looks of it it only sounds worse off. I hope it's not too late.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:14:06 -0800

It's not as if a fraudulent registration somehow conjures up a fraudulent voting spectre that goes on to cast a fraudulent vote. In my dreams (literally!) Obama takes on this very line of reasoning tonight and achieves the ultimate victory. (pls excuse vanity self-link to MeCha kthxbye)

By: Rykey

Rykey — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:19:34 -0800

Of course polls aren't ballots. But really, where is this disbelief coming from? From a lot of places, but mostly from the awareness that if this country were full of thinking, even minimally politically-conscious people, everything about political campaigns would look different. Instead, campaigns (on both sides) operate almost exclusively on empty talking points and appeals to emotion and patriotism. In such a political climate, a black guy with a funny name (who might be a Muslim!) will have a hard time convincing people that he is a more fit candidate than the kindly veteran who looks like your uncle. A simplistic assessment? Hell yes, but it's only a reflection of the simplistic reasoning of the average voter. I truly, truly wish I couldn't say that about my country. I truly do.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:22:18 -0800

Verizon and AT&T Provided Cell Towers for McCain Ranch

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:23:12 -0800

I was just doing a little reading up on tonight's debates, and what the running mates and spouses are doing right now. Biden has been in three separate rallies in Ohio today, while Michelle Obama went to a rally in Indiana before speaking at Hofstra University. Good plan - battleground states where Team Obama needs to increase their lead. Team McCain? Sarah and Todd Palin are in New Hampshire. That's right, New Hampshire, where Obama is up by an average of 10%. Oh, but it's not a wasted effort - Todd's gonna talk to diner patrons! Anyway, regarding the debates, which are apparently going to be about economy and domestic policy: I really enjoyed this quote from McCain spokeswoman Nicolle Wallace:

[Wallace] said the senator from Arizona would focus tonight on what she called "the truth about Barack Obama's plan for raising taxes" and his pursuit of other "liberal" policies. "Barack Obama is measuring the drapes," she declared. "He and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are planning a liberal Democratic takeover of our economy." She referred to the speaker of the House and the Senate majority leader.

Oh, God, this just keeps getting better. Obama's tax plan? Really? You mean the one where everyone making less than $250k gets a tax cut? Oh, yeah. I'm sure working families are going to hate hearing more about that. Seriously, I really think McCain's entire campaign is one big practical joke being played by the Republican Party, on him. Next week they'll be telling McCain to go to Alaska and club some seals for a television crew.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:24:01 -0800

(Link for the Wallace quote)

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:25:30 -0800

Well, you messed that up properly. Lord, did I have a hard time defending you then. You RE-elected Bush? That hurt. I'd been telling people for years how intelligent and friendly you all were, how we shouldn't judge America by its polititians, how the people aren't represented at all by their fool of a President. And then you go and shoot yourselves in the foot. I've gotta admit- it was tough to explain that one away. It's as simple as this: John Kerry was a terrible candidate. He tried to rise above the fray, but he had no clue how to counter Rove, and he was perhaps the least charismatic candidate since Dukakis. I know all this seems very superficial, and you are correct if you think so, but that's a very important part of getting elected. Obama has the charisma and the chops, but he also has the ethical foundation and the vision not only to bring this home but to follow through. So, he has the superficial part down, but it's a good thing he's also more substantial than that. Also, this is a change year, and 2004 was too close to 2003, which was a great year for Bush. This is a good year for Democrats.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:35:11 -0800

Oh, God, this just keeps getting better. Obama's tax plan? Really? You mean the one where everyone making less than $250k gets a tax cut? Oh, yeah. I'm sure working families are going to hate hearing more about that. Yeah, McCain's never been honest about Obama's tax plan, but to that I need to quote a recent review by Ebert: So here's the bottom line, kids. The United States is probably going to go broke during your lifetimes. Actually, it's already broke, but getting deeper into debt allows it to keep running on thin air, like the Road Runner. My advice? Learn Chinese. Start savings accounts. Don't buy what you can't afford. Any politician who tries to win votes by promising to cut taxes is digging our country's grave. I hate that you have to promise a tax cut to take the issue off the table, which is exactly what Obama's done, and that was a smart jujitsu move (a pattern with Obama, which was also a Clinton strategy). Whether it's a smart policy move remains to be seen. Cutting taxes? Now? Really? How about that $3/4 trillion bailout we just passed? Where is the money to pay for it? Oh, we have to borrow it ... Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Isn't that sort of the heart of the problem? I hope this doesn't become like that infamous George HW Bush albatross, "Read my lips: No new taxes!" But it becomes much less of a political liability when the Dems offer a better tax cut for the middle class than the Republicans. I just don't know if this political strategy has a basis in good policy.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:35:35 -0800

Instead, campaigns (on both sides) operate almost exclusively on empty talking points and appeals to emotion and patriotism. In such a political climate, a black guy with a funny name (who might be a Muslim!) will have a hard time convincing people that he is a more fit candidate than the kindly veteran who looks like your uncle. I can appreciate that sentiment, but campaigning is really very multifaceted, and adapts to its medium. On television, the medium of choice for the attention-span impaired, ideas and principles are delivered in simple, easy to digest morsels. Radio spots are a little wordier, but not much. However, in the printed media you find a much broader range of analysis, from the shallow to deep end, from the right to the left. On the ground, (good) rallies will evoke a lot of ideas, and some of the most engaging and thought-provoking exchanges occur between canvassers and canvassees. It's the ground work that Obama has been utliizing most, and I think it's a testament to where most Americans stand on substance vs. shitslinging that Obama's lead has been steadily building. Sure, there are plenty of idiots out there, but the numbers speak for themselves. Also, McCain no longer looks "kindly" or like my uncle. Pale, red-eyed- and beat up are adjectives that spring to mind. Wait, that actually is a lot like my uncle.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:37:12 -0800

Oh, forgot the link. Here's the Ebert review of I.O.U.S.A. where I pulled that quote.

By: anastasiav

anastasiav — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:38:57 -0800

The Republican National Committee is halting presidential ads in Wisconsin and Maine, turning much of its attention to usually Republican states where GOP nominee John McCain shows signs of faltering. In Maine, I suspect this has more to do with the fact that McCain's chances of winning here were frail at best, and the McCain association is doing more harm to Senator Collins than it was good for McCain. That Palin woman is going to be here tomorrow, but she's coming to Bangor (not anywhere in Southern Maine) and she's apparently not even leaving the airport. Over the weekend her husband did an appearance in Palmyra of all places -- Palmyra has a population of under 2,000.

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:39:05 -0800

"I'm going to see Toadies tonight. Let me know what happens." Well, it will be a fairly traditional set of late 90s alt rock lasting approximately 45 minutes. Possum Kingdom will be conspicuously absent until the very end, when you will be get all 27 dollars of admissions worth of entertainment screaming "Do You WANNA DIE?!?!" in the middle of a crowd of fellow generation x concertgoers looking to relive their best days.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:41:50 -0800

In such a political climate, a black guy with a funny name (who might be a Muslim!) will have a hard time convincing people that he is a more fit candidate than the kindly veteran who looks like your uncle. But it's happening. Demonstrably. Again, how else do you explain my bf's brother: a white, working-class guy with lifetime membership in the NRA who's voted Republican for 30+ years... who, last I heard, was voting for Obama? Or the diehard Republican in Toledo who had every intention of volunteering for McCain and ended up volunteering for Obama? The situation is not simply a black guy with a funny name against a kindly veteran who looks like someone's uncle. It's a black guy with a funny name running an extraordinarily skillful campaign against a not-very-kindly veteran who looks like someone's crazy uncle who is member of the same party as a stunningly unpopular lame duck president whose policies are widely seen as responsible for the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Under such circumstances, some people's ideas start to shift.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:48:48 -0800

I read Goldwater's biography -- an excellent book I recommend, by the way -- and in it the guy who once ranted of nuking the Kremlin remembers the time he decided not to rag on a father of six who got caught in a YMCA restroom and simply writes, "winning isn't everything". You know we're in a bad way when we can reminisce about how much we miss Barry Goldwater.

By: Rykey

Rykey — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:59:39 -0800

However, in the printed media you find a much broader range of analysis, from the shallow to deep end, from the right to the left. And what is your estimate of the ratio of people who get all their information about politics (and just about everything else) from television versus print?

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:01:50 -0800

CHALLENGER READY? GLADIATOR READY?

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:02:25 -0800

Two men enter....

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:06:05 -0800

Cspan is split screening for the first time - it's a strange effect.

By: jal0021

jal0021 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:07:48 -0800

McCain looks like he's dressed for a funeral.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:08:35 -0800

Joe Rixelburger: the fulcrum on which this whole game is going to turn.

By: liquorice

liquorice — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:08:37 -0800

Poor Joe!

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:09:02 -0800

And he certainly doesn't look comfortable with this direct attack referencing the plumber from Ohio.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:09:27 -0800

WHY DO YOU HATE JOE THE PLUMBER (AND HIS PROSTATE) BARACK OBAMA?

By: arcanecrowbar

arcanecrowbar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:09:34 -0800

mmmmm . . . Rixelburger . . .

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:09:49 -0800

Also, Obama will force Joe into a gay marriage.

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:09:54 -0800

I wonder if McCain will go after the Bob the Builder vote next.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:09:54 -0800

Obama's sticking the knife in on taxes.

By: These Premises Are Alarmed

These Premises Are Alarmed — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:10:37 -0800

I wish I was a fucking plumber.

By: lekvar

lekvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:10:55 -0800

Am I late for the debate thread?

By: almostmanda

almostmanda — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:10:57 -0800

Didn't we get into this mess because bad loans were made to people trying to realize the "American Dream" ?

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:10:59 -0800

Joe SixfigurePack isn't getting a tax cut. Tear.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:11:04 -0800

McCain looks like he's dressed for a funeral. The suit he wore for the last debate was particularly shiny. It was kind of creepy watching him wander around the stage in this shimmering, black fabric.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:11:29 -0800

Fuck this noise, Joe the Plumber for Labor Secretary.

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:11:29 -0800

Obama seems totally calm, cool and collected. McCain looks quite shaky.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:11:40 -0800

Spread it around, Joe, spread it around.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:11:47 -0800

And what is your estimate of the ratio of people who get all their information about politics (and just about everything else) from television versus print? I don't have any hard data regarding that in front of me, but wherever all these people are getting their information from, Obama supporters currently have a sold majority, which certainly brightens my mood a little (although I agree wholeheartedly this is far from a foregone conclusion).

By: Ndwright

Ndwright — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:11:56 -0800

CLASS WARFARE!!!! WOO!!!! . . .wait, what?

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:04 -0800

And since Obama is a Muslim, Joe the gay plumber-wife will have to wear a burqa.

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:05 -0800

McCain sure is blinking a lot. Obama, on the other hand, looks steadily. So... the eyes have it? (wow, that made even me groan...)

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:05 -0800

"I want Joe the plumber to spread his seed around"

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:26 -0800

Who's taking shots on 'Spread the wealth around'? Are you still conscious?

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:31 -0800

I'm gonna have an epileptic seizure from all all this blinking.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:43 -0800

Barack is really doing well on the specific examples tonight.

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:45 -0800

Oh shit, Obama's good.

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:52 -0800

Senator McCain, linear thinking please.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:56 -0800

We are TALKING about JOE THE PLUMBER. STAY on the ISSUES, Obama.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:13:42 -0800

Does nobody in McCain's campaign understand you don't wear moire-inducing patterns on television?

By: Countess Elena

Countess Elena — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:13:45 -0800

If I were Joe the plumber, I would resent having to be "Joe the Plumber" in this debate.

By: lullaby

lullaby — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:13:49 -0800

Can McCain stop smirking and giggling now? It's kind of annoying.

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:14:13 -0800

Okay, Obama just screwed up - he's repeating talking points, but not taking down McCain's stupid Fannie and Freddie point. This American Life/Planet Money told me that they did NOT cause the problem. And TAL/PM are never wrong. (Except when they are. But not in this case.) Please, set the record straight on Fannie and Freddie today -- and definitely on Acorn. I wonder if McCain will go after the Bob the Builder vote next. posted by topynate at 9:09 PM on October 15 Isn't he British? I don't think he can vote unless he's a dual citizen. ---------- OMG! McCain said "class warfare". Okay, McCain is so red-baiting. I know a commie when I see one. I've been one (okay, I was 12, and since have become disillusioned about command economies when I learned how they work). Obama ain't no commie. Taxes are a patriotic thing to pay. People should be proud about paying taxes the way Christians are proud of paying tithes.

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:14:16 -0800

Im actually kind of surprised that McCain is unhinging and acting like a dick

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:15:09 -0800

Wait, what about Josephine the Plumber, goddammit?

By: Christ, what an asshole

Christ, what an asshole — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:15:57 -0800

Hmm, I just realized that both Obama and McCain are left-handed. So were Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, and Ford. Yay us!

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:16:39 -0800

Can McCain stop smirking and giggling now? It's kind of annoying. It's also not a great approach when you're talking about an economic meltdown and That One is looking totally presidential.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:16:51 -0800

"While you were asking that question, I had time to phone up my friend Joe the Plumber, and he said that if you think you can fund health care during this time of economic crisis, you have your head in the fiscal toilet, Senator Obama."

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:16:52 -0800

'Profligate'. Nice.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:17:42 -0800

"countries that don't like us very much" - DRINK!

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:17:55 -0800

To clarify, I think Obama did very well with 'helping Joe the Plumber before he's in a position to make $250000 a year'. It stops McCain from letting Joe stand in for all of Middle America.

By: arcanecrowbar

arcanecrowbar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:16 -0800

COUNTRIES THAT DONT LIKE US VERY MUCH TAKE A DRINK

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:18 -0800

McCain: A hatchet in one hand and a scalpel in the other!

By: wowbobwow

wowbobwow — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:19 -0800

ahhh scalpel? bizarre

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:19 -0800

First I'd use a hatchet, THEN I'd use a scalpel!

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:21 -0800

Every time McCain presents a plan, he mentions that people think it's a bad idea. Haha.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:23 -0800

a hatchet AND a scalpel? DEXTER MORGAN '08!

By: LooseFilter

LooseFilter — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:23 -0800

Heh, Bob Scheiffer is running a pretty tight ship here.

By: localhuman

localhuman — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:24 -0800

HATCHET + SCALPEL = GREAT SOCIETY

By: ceiriog

ceiriog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:35 -0800

McCain knows how to do stuff!

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:36 -0800

McCain scoring big on broad promise to stop spending money.

By: woodway

woodway — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:38 -0800

McCain wants a hatchet... I will not sleep well tonight.

By: Christ, what an asshole

Christ, what an asshole — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:45 -0800

I like the somewhat aggressive moderation. It's making this debate far more watchable than previous outings.

By: casaubon

casaubon — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:18:47 -0800

I saved billions. What did you ever do?

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:19:11 -0800

HAHHAHAHAHAH HATCHET > SCALPEL I will cut off the leg and then I will OPERATE on that leg!

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:19:17 -0800

oh snap. 'Overhead Projector'.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:19:26 -0800

INCLUDING THE PLANITARIUM PROJECTOR!?!!!!!

By: anastasiav

anastasiav — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:19:31 -0800

I wonder if McCain will go after the Bob the Builder vote next. Nah, Obama's got that all wrapped up. In fact, I'm pretty sure he ~~stole~~ adopted his campain theme from Bob The Builder (and I know this because my toddler walks around the house singing the theme song all day....) "Can we build it?" "YES WE CAN"

By: wendell

wendell — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:19:37 -0800

Joe the Plumber? Joe Six-Pack? Overcompensating for Obama picking a guy named Joe for VP?

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:19:52 -0800

Did he SERIOUSLY bring up the projector again?

By: LooseFilter

LooseFilter — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:20:07 -0800

McCain has this weird, maniacally triumphant grin at the end of his answers, it's creepy.

By: jal0021

jal0021 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:20:24 -0800

Crap, McCain is trying to sell me that used car again... "See, it has power windows. You don't get that everywhere. V6 engine. Clear coat finish. Lumbar support. Did I mention the power windows? Check these out! Up! Down! They're tinted! Let's step into my office, OK?!"

By: casaubon

casaubon — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:20:25 -0800

History for Obama is Bush era. History for McCain is the Great Society

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:20:39 -0800

Aha, so this is the debate thread. Did McCain really just complain about the planetarium projector again, or did I hallucinate that?

By: wowbobwow

wowbobwow — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:20:50 -0800

i feel bad for bob schaefer. no way he's gonna get headway on these questions.

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:20:57 -0800

Does McCain's campaign ever go over previous debates? He keeps rolling out the same canards that seemed to flop last time. I KNOW -- sticking by that line? the projector again? WTF

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:21:03 -0800

Oh sure, McCain likes Joe the Plumber, but has NO RESPECT for Polly the Projectionist at Adler Planetarium.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:21:16 -0800

Hell yes, staying on point: McCain = Bush.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:21:31 -0800

Senator, I know President Bush. I am no President Bush. OH SNAP!!!

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:21:31 -0800

That got weird for a second. How DARE you compare me to a guy that I actually compare very closely to?

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:21:46 -0800

JOB CREATION OF ENERGY INDEPENDENCE!

By: LooseFilter

LooseFilter — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:21:50 -0800

Obama looks pissed.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:21:53 -0800

Americans are hurting tonight ... wasn't that a Clinton line?

By: mazola

mazola — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:22:15 -0800

I think they should take a hatchet, scalpel, and a pipe wrench to the budget.

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:22:23 -0800

"Senator Obama, I am not President Bush. If you wanted to run against President Bush you should have run four years ago." That might be McCain's single best debate line ever. He didn't even turn purple.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:22:38 -0800

McCain = Bush. Which still blows my mind, considering the way the Bush machine treated him back in 2000. I can't understand why he stands by them.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:22:45 -0800

Maybe my party's just right more of the time. Ever think about that one?

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:23:25 -0800

he said that if you think you can fund health care during this time of economic crisis, you have your head in the fiscal toilet, Senator Obama." I always wonder about the cost of switching the US to a National Health Service. Because I thought I had read somewhere that the US gov't is already spending as much as most countries do to provide an NHS. I realise that does include research funding and there may be more of that than elsewhere. But still, I can't help but think there must be some way to switch the US over to real healthcare. But I don't believe there is the political will - too many myths about gov't health care have been told in the U.S.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:23:34 -0800

FOX NEWS EYE BUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By: liquorice

liquorice — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:23:58 -0800

Even Fox News disputes it!

By: LooseFilter

LooseFilter — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:24:23 -0800

Holy shit that was an awesome takedown by Obama, and McCain looked genuinely surprised.

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:24:28 -0800

That 6.8 Billion dollars he saved on the aircraft tanker? That contract went to EADS, a European company. Boeing on the other hand was snubbed and has filed an appeal.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:24:29 -0800

Scars to prove it? Holy hell, he's scrambling his talking points.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:24:30 -0800

Wait, scars? What?

By: ceiriog

ceiriog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:24:32 -0800

Scars!

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:24:42 -0800

"I got the scars to prove it" - drink!

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:24:45 -0800

I got the scars. Fuck, I can't lift my fucking arms! FUCK!

By: quin

quin — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:25:10 -0800

::30 minutes into the debate, tension has increased as each candidate has perfectly parried each others attacks:: McCain: You are wonderful. Obama: Thank you; I've worked hard to become so. McCain: I admit it, you are better than I am. Obama: Then why are you smiling? McCain: Because I know something you don't know. Obama: And what is that? McCain: I... am not left-handed. [McCain moves his pen to his right hand and gains an advantage] Obama: You are amazing. McCain: I ought to be, after 20 years. Obama: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you. McCain: Tell me. Obama: I'm not left-handed either. [Obama moves his pen to his right hand and regains his advantage]

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:25:14 -0800

Oh, here we go.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:25:27 -0800

Oh here we go now ...

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:25:42 -0800

I really... can he get any more sleazy? OH FUCK HERE comes Ayers!!!!

By: LooseFilter

LooseFilter — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:25:45 -0800

Whoa, fucking Bob put it right on the fucking table!!!!!

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:25:50 -0800

SAY IT TO HIS FACE, OLD MAN

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:25:51 -0800

He brought up Ayers.

By: lekvar

lekvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:26:00 -0800

Ooooooooh, this is gonna be good...

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:26:03 -0800

JB, Wikipedia sez: The U.S. spends more on health care per capita than any other nation in the world. Current estimates put U.S. health care spending at approximately 15.2% of GDP... The health share of GDP is expected to continue its historical upward trend, reaching 19.5 percent of GDP by 2017. In 2007, the U.S. spent a projected $2.26 trillion on health care, or $7,439 per person. So... yes.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:26:26 -0800

.......whaa.. town.. h.. WHAT?!

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:26:26 -0800

WHY DID YOU MAKE MCCAIN CALL YOU A TERRORIST, OBAMA?

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:26:27 -0800

AYERS! ITS ON!

By: the other side

the other side — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:26:32 -0800

"I had to be an asshole, cause he said no to the townhalls!"

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:26:51 -0800

Oh, look at ME, the VICTIM!!!!!!

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:26:59 -0800

"I'm the victim!"

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:27:09 -0800

That is ... HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA OUTSTANDING

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:27:09 -0800

The George Wallace canard.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:27:23 -0800

Come on Obama... call him the fuck out. "McCain, call me a terrorist, right now. Let's go."

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:27:34 -0800

Note that McCain is STILL refusing to talk about Ayers.

By: woodway

woodway — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:27:43 -0800

Truthful campaign? McCain ain't gonna bury the hatchet, folks.

By: cybercoitus interruptus

cybercoitus interruptus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:27:56 -0800

WTF the question was about their respective campaigns, not what random supporters say. McCain as victim, what a crock.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:28:14 -0800

McCain is all the fuck over the place - town halls, campaign finance, repudiate editorials... what?

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:28:28 -0800

Opportunity to bring Ayers to his face ends up being a town hall meeting callout! In the words of a crazy city council speaker about a rogue helicopter pilot, what a "lemon headed chameleon coward terrorist pussy!"

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:28:34 -0800

He's not going to bury the hatchet OR the scalpel.

By: lyam

lyam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:28:39 -0800

100%!!

By: lullaby

lullaby — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:29:13 -0800

McCain's running mate says Obama is palling around with terrorists, and OBAMA is the one doing wrong? Jesus Christ.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:29:20 -0800

"I think the American people are less interested in our hurt feelings ..." Sweet! Kapow!

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:30:29 -0800

*Licks tongue and draws a line in the imaginary Obama column*

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:30:33 -0800

That was historic.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:31:18 -0800

JOE THE PLUMBER BACK IN THA HOUSE

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:31:20 -0800

Jesus Christ, this bastard is getting away with equating negative ads about his record with vicious hateful character attacks.

By: mazola

mazola — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:31:23 -0800

Why isn't Joe the Plumber his VP?

By: Avenger

Avenger — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:31:27 -0800

Whats going on? Somebody give me a play-by-play!

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:31:38 -0800

OK, you asked for it, John

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:31:44 -0800

NEWSFLASH! MCCAIN IS AGAINST AMERICAS TEAM! COWBOYS FANS FURIOUS!

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:32:05 -0800

Somewhere in Middle America, Joe the Plumber licks his tongue and draws a line in the very real Joe the Plumber column.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:32:14 -0800

FUCK YES HERE WE GO.

By: cybercoitus interruptus

cybercoitus interruptus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:32:37 -0800

Any critique = negative dirty campaigning! Asshole. Yeah! Stick it to him about his running mate!

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:32:38 -0800

"Terrorist" and "kill him" from Obama's mouth. Wow.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:33:17 -0800

Barack just wiped the floor with Grampa.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:33:34 -0800

"you gotta read it" -- god, the psycho-killer crazy weird voice and smirking and interrupting! Does no one in the McCain campaign say "DON'T ACT LIKE A DICK"????

By: casaubon

casaubon — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:33:49 -0800

I want this man to be President.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:34:00 -0800

McCain is going to lose it, Obama is quoting his supporters and McCain says he is Proud of that.

By: stinkycheese

stinkycheese — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:34:06 -0800

Buzzbomb!

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:34:09 -0800

McCain's just rambling now.

By: xorry

xorry — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:34:32 -0800

obama just ripped mccain's throat out.

By: Avenger

Avenger — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:35:03 -0800

literally?

By: lekvar

lekvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:35:29 -0800

I'm listening to this on the radio, so I don't know how it looks, but McCain sounds like he's about to cry.

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:35:40 -0800

McCain's just rambling now. Cut some slack, the white haired dude is like 97.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:35:54 -0800

He is, as far as I can tell.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:35:59 -0800

McCain is FURIOUS. The huffing and puffing and freaking out and eye rolling and interrupting... too bad petulant children can't vote because HE'S THEIR MAN.

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:03 -0800

Hey, is this where I can find the bad t-shirts McCain is talking about?

By: casaubon

casaubon — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:07 -0800

lol. He burst.

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:13 -0800

Hah. In before the lock!

By: mazola

mazola — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:17 -0800

Oh dear god.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:23 -0800

"destroying the fabric of democracy"

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:25 -0800

ACORN is "destroying the fabric of democracy"? Seriously?

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:36 -0800

Oh my god McCain just brought up ACORN.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:36 -0800

I just intercepted this message: To: john@mccain.com From: joe@plumber.com Leave me alone already! Unless your drain's clogged, in which case I'll be right over. It's after 5, so I'll have to charge you double-time.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:53 -0800

ACORN IS DESTROYING THE VERY FABRIC OF DEMOCRACY!!! THEY ARE DOING WHAT EVEN AL-QAIDA COULD NOT!

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:57 -0800

HEY! Stop reading this and go back up here and hit "Favorite"

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:37:07 -0800

Obama needs shorter sentances. Damn his actual literacy. ------------ Oh! Now I want to rip out McCain's throat. Don't you dis my ACORN! I just found out who they are, and I'm in love with them.

By: hippugeek

hippugeek — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:37:30 -0800

ACORN is destroying the fabric of democracy! And to think, I turned down a job with them. I could have altered the very course of history.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:37:32 -0800

oh SNAP, Ronald Reagan's ambassador!

By: lekvar

lekvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:38:03 -0800

Wow, McCain's just grasping at straws now. Obama's framed the course of the debate and McCain is being led by the nose. It's almost painful to listen to.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:38:12 -0800

PWNED.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:38:31 -0800

Obama just decimated Ayers and ACORN.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:38:47 -0800

OH YOU GO MAN -- here are my associations

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:39:34 -0800

HIS LIVING ROOM!!!!!!!

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:39:43 -0800

McCain, your response? Blbb...bhas. b...blblbmmbmmmm

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:39:48 -0800

PWNEDDDD!!!!!!!!

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:39:52 -0800

He should defend ACORN - he should point out that they flagged out the problem registrations. Please, Mr Obama, defend ACORN. They are cool.

By: lekvar

lekvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:40:29 -0800

Anyone want to lay odds on a total meltdown during the debate?

By: kimdog

kimdog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:40:39 -0800

Hah! Go Bob. Running mates! Hah!

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:40:47 -0800

Oooooooweeee, Bob Schieffer is god.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:40:56 -0800

Daaaamn Bob is bringing it.

By: ceiriog

ceiriog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:00 -0800

Oh, this is going to be gooood.

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:06 -0800

Yeah, I wish he'd stepped up to the plate on ACORN. They do good things.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:11 -0800

Shit, I just realized I could have been watching CNN with their little magic lines at the bottom. How were they going during that whole exchange?

By: lullaby

lullaby — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:35 -0800

Can someone explain where this "Obama started his campaign in Ayers' living room!" thing came from?

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:48 -0800

Can I nominate Jim Lehrer as this year's best moderator by a freaking landslide? Talk about not pussyfooting around. Finally.

By: casaubon

casaubon — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:52 -0800

Hah. How does McCain follow this response?

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:41:55 -0800

It's over. Obama could just sit there for the remainder of this thing and still get fucking 400 EVs.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:42:07 -0800

Yeah, Schieffer's significantly better than the previous three moderators.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:42:33 -0800

lullaby, it's an outright fabrication - pretty simple.

By: lullaby

lullaby — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:42:34 -0800

I'm waiting for McCain to attack Biden instead of promote Palin. What could he possibly say?

By: dhruva

dhruva — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:42:41 -0800

On CNN international, the ohio men flatline on the little meter whenever obama talks. Weird

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:42:42 -0800

See kids? THIS is how you moderate a debate

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:42:59 -0800

Can someone explain where this "Obama started his campaign in Ayers' living room!" thing came from? Before Obama ran for anything, there was apparently some sort of open house held at Ayers house. That's what I've heard, anyway.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:13 -0800

A ROLE MODEL TO WOMEN? Senator, take it from this woman: FUCK YOU.

By: bluishorange

bluishorange — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:16 -0800

Sarah Palin's a ROLE MODEL TO ALL WOMEN?

By: lullaby

lullaby — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:28 -0800

lullaby, it's an outright fabrication - pretty simple. Right, but who started it? The Clinton campaign? McCain campaign?

By: bluishorange

bluishorange — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:35 -0800

Fuck you, indeed.

By: kimdog

kimdog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:41 -0800

Feh air indeed!

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:45 -0800

Mohn JcCain por freisident!

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:43:55 -0800

It's time we had that freth of breast air.

By: Rykey

Rykey — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:02 -0800

...and there's the Tard Card.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:05 -0800

reform reform reform autism reform she hasn't actually done anything reform

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:21 -0800

Uh, the special needs vote? Seriously? That's what he's going for now?

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:25 -0800

McCain Palin - A bresh of freath air for America

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:25 -0800

Can someone explain where this "Obama started his campaign in Ayers' living room!" thing came from? posted by lullaby at 9:41 PM on October 15 [+] [!] There was some early campaign thing in the 1990s which was hosted by Ayers. I think. Maybe. Heard it somewhere, but not crazy source (NYT?). I would look it up, but I have beer, and thus not enough brain cells available. Also, I can see the US from my house.

By: casaubon

casaubon — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:34 -0800

capable... ... politician

By: Christ, what an asshole

Christ, what an asshole — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:40 -0800

She understands special needs...yet is looking to eradicate autism?

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:43 -0800

THIS is how you moderate a debate Exactly. Finally got it right.

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:47 -0800

She has an IQ outside of the lower margin of the first standard deviation.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:44:49 -0800

Is she qualified? "She's excited the base." HAHAHAHAHAH

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:45:22 -0800

Having a special needs kid doesn't qualify you to be vice president. Might give you valuable experience for working with the McCain campaign, though.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:45:28 -0800

Oh SNAP, the scalpel vs. hatchet!

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:46:07 -0800

Yes, Iraq is just one happy unified state.

By: TungstenChef

TungstenChef — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:46:12 -0800

Shit, I just realized I could have been watching CNN with their little magic lines at the bottom. How were they going during that whole exchange? The "independents" are much more partisan this time. The men are obviously more biased towards McCain, the women are obviously more biased towards Obama.

By: AwkwardPause

AwkwardPause — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:46:49 -0800

heartache?!

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:47:00 -0800

Also, I can see the US from my house. So you're the one who's been rearing his head in my back yard?

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:47:02 -0800

I love the look that Obama has when McCain brings up specifics, as if he's saying to himself "Oh, John, you really don't understand, do you."

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:47:17 -0800

Don't correct the moderator, John ... Wow. Bad form.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:47:55 -0800

How in the hell would one even go about unilaterally renegotiate anything?

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:47:56 -0800

I wonder how Obama's chuckling at McCain's policy arguments is going to play. It could come across as cocky, but it might help hammer home the idea that McCain really doesn't know what he's talking about. The idea of a spending freeze in the middle of a recession is just insane.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:48:49 -0800

Navy ships have nuclear PLANTS on them?? For 60 years? Sailing around the world?

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:48:57 -0800

You don't tell countries you will unilaterally renegotiate with them You do unilaterally invade them on false pretenses.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:49:51 -0800

The idea of a spending freeze in the middle of a recession is just insane. Obama rightly pointed out that this is an historically empty gesture. It's not going to happen, and this is just grandstanding on McCain's part.

By: anastasiav

anastasiav — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:50:14 -0800

Can someone explain where this "Obama started his campaign in Ayers' living room!" thing came from? Ayers and Obama live in the same neighborhood. In 1995, when Obama's political career was just starting Ayers hosted a "meet the candidate" house-party type thing at his home for Obama, during his run for the local Senate (State Senate) seat.

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:50:17 -0800

Well, you have to establish some prerequisites before negotiating with Canada.

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:50:35 -0800

Yeah - the whole dependant on foreign oil. Y'all didn't like Carter because he told you to put on a sweater. Well, he was damn right. You didn't want Carter, you wanted Reagan instead - and now you have $4 gas and cars way less efficient than Europe has. Dammit! I'm voting Carter for 2008. Also, Mr McCain? This Canadian would be happy to stop selling you oil. It's destroying our environment and propping up a right-wing gov't. Sure, it will be a bit tough for us, but we too can sacrafice to save our planet. Because I like our planet - it's my favourite planet to live on.

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:52:48 -0800

This "Drilling technology" is here ..."now"?

By: Bobby Bittman

Bobby Bittman — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:52:55 -0800

McCain is a free traitor?

By: gofargogo

gofargogo — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:53:00 -0800

Ayers: Obama spoke carefully when it swatted down the Ayers issues, and said that Ayers had nothing to do with "this" campaign. Which makes the whole allegation even more stupid then I'd previously thought, if that is possible.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:53:05 -0800

Killing young Americans? Someone tell David Bowie.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:53:36 -0800

Well, that was completely unintelligible.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:53:48 -0800

It's true. I saw it on TVC15.

By: lullaby

lullaby — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:54:11 -0800

Ayers and Obama live in the same neighborhood. In 1995, when Obama's political career was just starting Ayers hosted a "meet the candidate" house-party type thing at his home for Obama, during his run for the local Senate (State Senate) seat. Ah. Thanks for the explanation.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:54:12 -0800

McCain's getting really pissy. That's not going to play well.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:54:17 -0800

oh, and by the way, McCain: SPAIN.

By: kimdog

kimdog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:54:54 -0800

Don't worry, it won't matter in five years. That's all we got.

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:54:54 -0800

Someone get McCain a paper bag or something. I can hear him hyperventilating from here.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:55:46 -0800

Is anyone else hearing a weird snorting/growling sound coming from McCain while he's sitting there smirking?

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:56:17 -0800

HOOVER!!!!!!!!!

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:56:43 -0800

I think he's choking on his sleaziness.

By: effwerd

effwerd — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:57:00 -0800

Not to interrupt the debate but I can't resist my inner poll geek... Some media outlets have skewed their reporting to make the race seem closer than it is, and CNN may be doing it, too. Is their data available? Pollster has Obama ahead by 4%+ in Colorado, Florida, and Ohio, and CNN has them as tossups. In all fairness, the major media outlets are being conservative and that's a good thing. There really isn't much reason for the MSM to jump the gun on any tossup states. They aren't really trying to do what FiveThirtyEight, for example, is trying to do. They're just trying to reflect what the polls are showing at the moment. Besides, even if you take away every slightly questionable state and make it a tossup you still end up with Obama at 259. That means he only needs to win one tossup state east of the Mississippi or two west of it as long as one of them is Colorado, any three otherwise. Though the optimism does break down at the end of that last sentence, the odds of Obama getting swept east of the Mississippi are pretty slim. Still, this is what makes Colorado so critical. If Obama can secure his lead there, he would only need to win one more of the tossup states and the election result would be pretty much set. With the Republicans determined to throw all their efforts behind voter suppression (since McCain isn't really doing anything to win this thing), there is definitely a risk in, well, every tossup state, but if the national polls have Obama at around +6 percent or more just before election day and he loses the election, that shouldn't sit well with anyone. And after this election, I am going to have to find a clinic that treats poll addiction.

By: splatta

splatta — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:58:17 -0800

I lve it when Obama looks me in the eye and talks policy.

By: clearly

clearly — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:58:26 -0800

Is anyone else hearing a weird snorting/growling sound coming from McCain while he's sitting there smirking? It is the sound of Presidential hopes and dreams leaving his body.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:58:29 -0800

McCain: "My friends, THAT ONE's health care plan will raise Joe the Plumber's taxes. Mine, however, is quite simple and economical: A HATCHET AND A SCALPEL."

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:59:37 -0800

oh, now the Young Americans that aren't dead are fat.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:59:45 -0800

Oh for fuck's sake

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:59:53 -0800

McCain: Talk to your children about Obesity.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:00:05 -0800

OH MY GOD, I HAVE ESP!!!!

By: ltracey

ltracey — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:00:12 -0800

Oh my gosh, Scody is psychic.

By: Christ, what an asshole

Christ, what an asshole — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:00:23 -0800

Jesus, I'm glad "Joe the plumber" wasn't a drinking game token tonight.

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:00:40 -0800

Joe the Plumber TANKS with women on the CNN tracker thingie

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:00:45 -0800

Get out of my secret plumbing place John McCain!

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:00:53 -0800

Enough with Joe the Plumber, what about Boris the Spider?

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:01:11 -0800

Navy ships have nuclear PLANTS on them?? For 60 years? Sailing around the world? posted by scody at 9:48 PM on October 15 [1 favorite +] [!] yep. That's what powers submarines. Didn't know ships had them too. ------- I agree, Obama should stop smiling when he's annoyed. It sounded like a sigh the last time. But then, John McCain just rolled his eyes. Smiling or rolling eyes? I don't decide, because I'm a foreign bum sucking your country dry.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:01:12 -0800

That's right, I would love Canada or England.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:01:33 -0800

Oooh, McCain didn't like that one.

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:01:40 -0800

Sean Quinn over at FiveThirtyEight notes that McCain is doing a tongue jut consistently after every attack and potentially dishonest statement. It's an interesting tell.

By: the other side

the other side — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:01:45 -0800

LOL... "ZERO?!" Yep, John.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:01:47 -0800

Is it wrong that I get sort of tingly when Obama says "pay into a kitty"?

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:02:13 -0800

Oh sweet Jesus. I deeply, deeply want to see an interview with Joe the Plumber where he says he's voting Obama. And ZING on the $0 fine. Ouch. McCain looked like someone unexpectedly slapped him with a fish.

By: jal0021

jal0021 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:03:55 -0800

These guys are wasting their time. Joe is totally voting for Ralph Nader. He told me last night.

By: wowbobwow

wowbobwow — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:04:03 -0800

"CONGRATZ JOE" omg you bitter pisser!

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:04:07 -0800

Obama makes policy-wonkery sexy again.

By: hippugeek

hippugeek — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:04:28 -0800

"Zero?" "Zero, John" I love that little jaw-drop, that little moment before McCain regained his composure, when he seemed to be thinking "Well heck. That sounds pretty good, then."

By: brain cloud

brain cloud — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:04:28 -0800

I don't think people understand the whole deal about their healthcare benefits being taxed under McCain. I truly believe the followers of McCain are the great un-mathed masses who barely understand how to read their own paystubs.

By: breath

breath — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:04:36 -0800

Did McCain just say that Joe is rich? The "everyman" who is his example, is a rich person? WTF?!?!?!

By: educatedslacker

educatedslacker — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:04:56 -0800

The hell with these two. I'm voting for Joe the Plumber!!

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:03 -0800

He just lost the transplant vote....

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:12 -0800

You'd think a seasoned gambler like McCain wouldn't have such an obvious tell.

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:16 -0800

I will pay someone cash money for this political debate not to be about Joe the Plumber.

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:17 -0800

McCain, here's a tip: when you attack hair transplants, you really have to say the word 'hair'.

By: brain cloud

brain cloud — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:18 -0800

WHOA! "Senator Government!"

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:23 -0800

Yeah, John, fuck organ transplant patients. Fucking freeloaders, get your own organs!

By: wowbobwow

wowbobwow — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:33 -0800

SENATOR GOVMINT

By: Senor Cardgage

Senor Cardgage — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:34 -0800

TRANSPLANTS EXEMPT FROM MEDICAL COVERAGE!!!

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:37 -0800

The upside of the Joe the Plumber shit: it's reminding me bigtime of the A-Ha video pipe wrench fight.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:38 -0800

McCain is insisting that there IS SO a fine for Joe the Plumber like Sarah Palin insists that she was found not to have violated ethics laws in Alaska. Gold-plated Cadillac? Whoa, McCain just channeled the ghost of Reagan and his Welfare Queen of Terror!

By: effwerd

effwerd — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:05:39 -0800

So this is McCain's cunning plan? Talk about Joe?

By: penduluum

penduluum — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:06:43 -0800

Wowzers, Bob.

By: effwerd

effwerd — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:07:22 -0800

Oh no. The Litmus Test Litmus Test.

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:07:24 -0800

If you missed the first bit, this Joe person is a complete mystery. It also makes for TERRIBLE sound bites on the news later. Amateurish pseudo folksiness

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:07:46 -0800

The senate was about to blow up?

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:07:47 -0800

...the decision should rest with the states, I'm a federalist. Except with regard to health care, and pretty much any other issues.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:08:27 -0800

JOE THE PLUMBER FOR CHIEF JUSTICE

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:08:36 -0800

globalize the US supreme court!

By: Rykey

Rykey — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:08:40 -0800

So justices should be confirmed based on.... what?

By: Ryvar

Ryvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:08:58 -0800

Navy ships have nuclear PLANTS on them?? For 60 years? Sailing around the world? posted by scody at 9:48 PM on October 15 [1 favorite +] [!] yep. That's what powers submarines. Didn't know ships had them too. Aircraft carriers have had them for 48 years, and it kind of makes sense given their size, power requirements, and tendency to not sink since World War 2.

By: TungstenChef

TungstenChef — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:09:53 -0800

GI JOE.... A REAL AMERICAN HERO!!!

By: kimdog

kimdog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:10:02 -0800

Ummm... McC doesn't believe anyone who supports Roe v Wade could be qualified to be on the Supreme Court... no, I guess that's not quite a litmus test.

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:10:18 -0800

The senate was about to blow up? posted by scody at 2:07 AM on October 16 [+] [!] Don't worry about it Scody, he was watching 24 and got confused about it later.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:10:33 -0800

NICE. "The first amendment should not be subject to state referendum."

By: susanbeeswax

susanbeeswax — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:10:38 -0800

Did McCain just say that Joe is rich? The "everyman" who is his example, is a rich person? WTF?!?!?! Joe the Plumber, bringing home $250K a year *is* rich -- the average American wage is $39273... $40K vs $250K? I'd say Joe's rich too. Which is telling that McCain is trying to paint Joe as the American "every man."

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:10:47 -0800

God he's good... just explained abortion rights in an easy to understand, accessible manner in about 30 seconds.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:11:19 -0800

How are the CNN Ohio women reacting to the Roe and wage-fairness stuff?

By: effwerd

effwerd — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:11:47 -0800

Did Obama just say we shouldn't put basic human rights up to popular vote? If he did, awesome.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:12:28 -0800

(thanks for the info about nuclear power and subs/ships -- the way McCain said it, I thought he meant there were actual nuclear plants on ships that sailed around providing power outside the ship... sort of like Three Mile Island of the Seas.)

By: brain cloud

brain cloud — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:12:33 -0800

"It was a trial lawyer's dream!" -- so John McCain, you're saying you voted the way a trial lawyer would make his case? I thought all trial lawyers were Democrats.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:12:45 -0800

...young woman who's facing this terribly difficult ~~decision~~ forced pregnancy. Fixed that for you, McCain. Seriously - what part of Anti-Choice does he not understand?

By: BaxterG4

BaxterG4 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:12:49 -0800

I'd listen to a band named Failed Abortion.

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:12:57 -0800

interestingly the preamble to McCain's pro-life blurb completely flatlines on CNN, then the partial birth tanks with women and ticks upwards with men.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:13:01 -0800

What effwerd said -- Obama's coming off as completely statesmanlike tonight, especially that earlier stuff about how we all are going to have to start living within our means.

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:13:01 -0800

Well, a candidate accusing another candidate of infanticide in a Presidential debate is a milestone, of sorts.

By: ltracey

ltracey — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:13:04 -0800

I feel like McCain is rummaging around all of the attack ad allegations and "whipping them out" and hoping some of them will stick to Obama.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:13:26 -0800

If it sounds like bullshit, IT IS. Nice.

By: brain cloud

brain cloud — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:13:30 -0800

BTW, Obama kicking 50 kinds of ass tonight. Barack Obama, you complete me.

By: effwerd

effwerd — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:14:52 -0800

Common ground. Snifffff.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:14:57 -0800

Yes, yes yes! Common ground!

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:15:19 -0800

Obama, it's OK, you can say BIRTH CONTROL too.

By: Ryvar

Ryvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:15:28 -0800

Woo! Cavalier activity!

By: AwkwardPause

AwkwardPause — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:15:58 -0800

Did McCain say Obama voted against Breyer? Wouldn't he mean Alito?

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:16:09 -0800

Day-Glo Abortions

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:16:25 -0800

So this is McCain's cunning plan? Talk about Joe? He should take to heart Peggy Noonan's complaints about this campaign's reliance on narratives.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:16:52 -0800

We'll help take care of it. Until it's born. Then we don't care. Now I will smile creepily.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:16:55 -0800

JOE THE PLUMBER, PAY NO ATTENTION TO OBAMA'S CLEVER ELOQUENCE, HE WANTS TO FORCE YOU TO KILL THE BABBY IN YOUR TUMMY

By: lullaby

lullaby — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:17:47 -0800

Is McCain calling it the "pro-abortion" movement? Who are these "pro-abortion" people?

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:18:41 -0800

Hey - Obama knows a Supreme Court decision he doesn't like. (I also don't like the Lilly Ledbetter decision.)

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:19:17 -0800

Women are eating up Obama's education plan -- off the chart on the cost of college

By: Ryvar

Ryvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:19:27 -0800

Who are these "pro-abortion" people? The Voluntary Human Extinction movement?

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:19:27 -0800

I'm pro-abortion. But, I really hate babies, so maybe I'm more anti-baby.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:19:31 -0800

Obama: SCIENCE! McCain: vouchers!

By: aerotive

aerotive — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:20:21 -0800

Ayone notice that, during the abortion discussion, McCain spoke about women's health with an air of absolute contempt? Great way to alienate independents & centrists.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:20:27 -0800

Did McCain just say he's going to fire bad teachers and find them other jobs? Well, I guess it's nice he finally mentioned JOBS...

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:21:22 -0800

We should let troops come straight back to be teachers without having to take those pesky exams and get certified. WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ABOUT?!?! GOD THIS MAN IS FUCKING INSANE!

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:23:10 -0800

We should let troops come straight back to be teachers without having to take those pesky exams and get certified. I have to assume that McCain misunderstood this plan as it was explained to him, because this makes no sense. It's worse than nonsense, it's an actively terrible idea.

By: brain cloud

brain cloud — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:23:12 -0800

"I don't think America's youth are interest groups." OMG I KISS YOU OBAMA.

By: Simon!

Simon! — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:23:34 -0800

You know, I know how dumb it sounds, but sitting here listening to John McCain's education plans, I find it sincerely reassuring knowing that the next President of the United States will have watched the fourth season of The Wire. I mean I know his favorite character is Omar but I bet he has a soft spot in his heart for Bunny Colvin too.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:24:05 -0800

Yeah, that snide attitude is gonna do you a lot of good, John.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:24:05 -0800

"Do you have a teaching degree?" "No, but I do have PTSD." "Okay, then!"

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:24:05 -0800

Cindy and THAT WIFE ONE

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:24:40 -0800

I think Obama should promote Geoffrey Canada's "baby college" (from the Harlem Children's Zone) to go national - only maybe not just one organisation, but many local organisations working on the same issues. Helping parents parent - and also helping parents improve their own education. I'm tutoring kids right now, and that's one of the biggest gaps. I grew up on welfare, but I had parents who went back to school at the same time to improve their literacy, and that made a huge difference in my life. If my mom had had poorer literacy, she couldn't have helped me do my homework.

By: kimdog

kimdog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:24:55 -0800

Well, if being a POW qualifies you to be President, then serving overseas surely qualifies you to be a teacher.

By: TungstenChef

TungstenChef — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:24:58 -0800

We should let troops come straight back to be teachers without having to take those pesky exams and get certified. Yeah, WTF? Is McCain taking CRAZY PILLS???

By: effwerd

effwerd — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:25:06 -0800

"I'm surprised you didn't pay attention to that." I bet McCain just assumed that Obama didn't know about that just because he's black.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:25:11 -0800

EarBucket; That's what I'm saying - seriously, I will be doing some research, but this comes across as completely batshitinsane, so I assume he's misinformed. Does anyone have some links to what the hell he might possibly be talking about?

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:25:24 -0800

Is McCain under the impression that Down's Syndrome and autism are the same thing?

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:25:26 -0800

I don't know if this comes across to most people, and I feel somewhat cheap for saying it, but on some visceral, deep level McCain irritates and creeps me out in a fundamental way. It's not just the fact that he lies, cheaply runs race-based attacks and can never be honest enough to own them. It's that he actually knows what he does is wrong, and quite often can't meet the eyes of Obama while he does it. It's the pain of watching a man who has looked at all of his principles and sold them all. It's actually like watching a Shakespearian tragedy. Somewhere, somewhere in his soul he knows this is wrong and that he is betraying himself, and watching his actions disconnect so much from his conscience is something quite unsettling.

By: BaxterG4

BaxterG4 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:25:32 -0800

she has an autism baby and she lives near Russia. YESSSSS

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:26:04 -0800

Transparency : Reform :: Hatchet : ?

By: jal0021

jal0021 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:26:17 -0800

Every time McCain mentions Sarah Palin and autism, I think, "Wait, Sarah Palin has autism?"

By: mullingitover

mullingitover — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:26:22 -0800

Joe the plumber must be wondering if he got slashdotted tonight.

By: wowbobwow

wowbobwow — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:26:35 -0800

god mccain is just a real prick. FAIL

By: docpops

docpops — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:26:45 -0800

It would be cool if my seven year old knew how to arm a Claymore...

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:05 -0800

Autism != Down Syndrome in any sense, especially parenting challenges and diversity of potential etiology

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:07 -0800

Oh thank god it's almost over

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:11 -0800

I love McCain's hoity-toity "I'm taking out my pen and I am jotting that shit down."

By: Ryvar

Ryvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:21 -0800

SNORT

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:24 -0800

I'd love it if Schieffer would just say, "SENATOR MCCAIN, STOP INTERRUPTING."

By: kuujjuarapik

kuujjuarapik — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:27 -0800

I'm gonna give you all a $50 off coupon toward K-12.

By: 0xFCAF

0xFCAF — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:29 -0800

Did McCain just snort?

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:39 -0800

My friends! *drinks*

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:27:51 -0800

Did McCain just snort during that cute little interjection? Christ.

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:28:00 -0800

Hehe, GHHLIIGHLGH -- John McCain

By: lekvar

lekvar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:28:08 -0800

Goddamn. That was the debate/smackdown I've been craving.

By: dirtdirt

dirtdirt — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:28:19 -0800

God not another list of "whether it be's" PLEASE JOHN, STOP.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:28:29 -0800

My friends -- and especially my BFF, Joe the Plumber -- I have been a careful steward of the Hatchet of Freedom.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:28:43 -0800

"Sarah Palin knows autism on account of she has that thalidomide XYY baby."

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:28:51 -0800

Bob to millions of viewers: Go to mydebates.org APACHE FAIL

By: LooseFilter

LooseFilter — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:28:53 -0800

a man who has looked at all of his principles and sold them all. I remain unconvinced that he ever had them.

By: paisley henosis

paisley henosis — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:29:18 -0800

You guys are funny. The debate isn't on until tomorrow night. At 11pm, on Comedy Central. It should be between 6 and 24 minutes long.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:29:24 -0800

There's been a long line of McCains whose legacies I have tarnished.

By: dirtdirt

dirtdirt — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:29:45 -0800

And the little whistle-slurp McCain when he breathers in between sentences really grosses me the hell out. How's that for a hard, substantial policy comment?

By: lullaby

lullaby — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:30:28 -0800

We should let troops come straight back to be teachers without having to take those pesky exams and get certified. He mischaracterized the actual Troops to Teachers program.

DANTES assists eligible members of the armed forces to obtain certification or licensing as elementary school teachers, secondary school teachers, or vocational or technical teachers and to become highly qualified teachers. The program also helps these individuals find employment in high-need local education agencies (LEAs) or charter schools.

McCain just described it incorrectly.

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:31:08 -0800

Obama cocks his head too much, it's a little weird

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:31:14 -0800

Obama should have just closed with: "I strongly agree with Senator McCain that America needs a change. I hope you agree, too. Goodnight."

By: wowbobwow

wowbobwow — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:31:52 -0800

i want to feel big and strong, bob, can you show me how?

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:32:08 -0800

Whooaaa there take it easy McCain.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:32:09 -0800

Well, evidently McCain got the memo that he's supposed to shake Obama's hand THIS TIME.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:32:18 -0800

Now *THAT* was a debate, by gods.

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:32:29 -0800

Also, Bob for moderator of all of the debates next time. Or at least someone else who has some level of competence that cannot be matched by the autocue alone.

By: BaxterG4

BaxterG4 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:32:55 -0800

good job good job good job omg I'm touching a black man

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:32:58 -0800

OK, excellent debate, good moderation. Serve up 5 more of those please.

By: kuujjuarapik

kuujjuarapik — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:33:27 -0800

I've seen Asimo take stairs better than Cindy McCain.

By: paisley henosis

paisley henosis — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:33:39 -0800

Good job! GOOD JOB!!!! Seriously, I am impressed as shit, wow motherfucker!!!!! GJ!!!!!!!

By: drezdn

drezdn — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:36:34 -0800

How McCain thinks: Less than a year with a down syndrome baby makes you an expert on Autism.

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:37:15 -0800

scody: "Well, evidently McCain got the memo that he's supposed to shake Obama's hand THIS TIME." No fair, scody, McCain did shake Obama's hand at the last debate. Hell, they even embraced.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:39:00 -0800

That was awesomely un-spinnable. And yet, I'm sure they'll try to crowbar it into a tie somehow.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:39:06 -0800

relax, Rhaomi, it was a joke. Chris Matthews is ripping McCain a new one for belittling the health exception for women on the question of abortion.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:39:35 -0800

I'd love it if Schieffer would just say, "SENATOR MCCAIN, STOP INTERRUPTING." Nah, just let him lose points on his own. It doesn't help McCain to do that, but I'm glad he just let it go, because if he chided him it might make people feel sorry for McCain.

By: drezdn

drezdn — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:40:10 -0800

Obama on the high cost of college: I will take the following steps to make it more affordable... I will also give students the opportunity the chance to pay off their loans through service. Etc. McCain: I will make it easier to get loans. What! For the people I know at least, the problem isn't that the loans were hard to get. Even with just federal loans from lowly state colleges my wife and I have 40k+ in loans still to pay.

By: AdamCSnider

AdamCSnider — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:44:31 -0800

Right. Well, that sure as hell made up for the bland nonsense of the first two debates.

By: breath

breath — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:47:36 -0800

I kinda get the impression that McCain is just happy to be running for president, and doesn't really care about winning. He looked really happy to simply be up there being asked real, presidential questions, and even when Obama scored big points against him, he just cackled all the more. Because, like, just being there means he's already won, you know?

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:50:44 -0800

The Look

By: cowbellemoo

cowbellemoo — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:52:05 -0800

the problem isn't that the loans were hard to get Bingo. When I went into college in 2000, the (professional, published) student aid counselor I talked to said that on average an excellent student should be able to pay for a third of their tuition with grant money without trying very hard. By the time I left, and certainly in the years since, grants have dried up and the interest rate on student loans has gone way up. Subsidized education is a joke now.

By: drezdn

drezdn — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:52:18 -0800

McCain wants to fire bad teachers and find them new jobs but then he wants to give vets teaching jobs without passing certification tests? WTF JOHN?

By: Surfurrus

Surfurrus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:55:37 -0800

I just listened this time (NPR) and avoided pundits/discussions. Interesting. Overall, I think McCain just solidified his ('maverick') base - the ones who think they really aren't like 'those Washington people'. BUT, I think he may have put some distance between him and the right fringe-ies with his lack of commitment to load the Supreme Court down with a true anti Roe v. Wade justice and with his talk about 'civil rights'. Palin will have to pick them back up tomorrow with some of her 'good cheer' I guess. He really tried to derail the issues discussion with his 'whining' about negative campaigning --- AND while I was bored with it, I suppose that the 'moving on' refocusing by Obama will just seem to be another 'unfair attack' to his loyal supporters who love this kind of theater. They love to play (live) the victim card. Obama (who I support) does sound less assertive than I would like in this kind of forum. It is his manner of speaking -- it sometimes sounds tentative. I, personally, would *like* to have a leader who takes time to consider his words, but I think it works against him for some of the population who are 'fight driven'. He did serve a few really good volleys - in education, taxes, and health care. Still, those issues involve concepts that take more details than a 30 second definition. I really liked the way he cleared up his position on so many things -- even if McCain jumped in with one last retort - lie - as much as he could. The whole Ayers thing is such a waste of time. Does anyone but the fringe wackos even care?? I did feel good with Obama's performance tonight; maybe I just need to have more faith in the American people?

By: 0xFCAF

0xFCAF — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:59:14 -0800

What exactly is wrong with saying "Yes, you're damn right I would apply a litmus test, because there are thousands of qualified judges out there and it really isn't that hard to find a good one that agrees with me on this very important issue" ? Isn't that a completely reasonable position to take?

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:02:40 -0800

The moment that struck me that seems to have gone unnoticed by the pundits is when, right after a long argument about abortion, McCain described charter schools as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. That's going to infuriate a lot of pro-lifers, who see abortion as the foremost civil rights issue today.

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:02:42 -0800

The whole Ayers thing is such a waste of time. Does anyone but the fringe wackos even care?? Not so long as Obama keeps countering it, whereas there's a good record of smears not going away if ignored.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:04:26 -0800

CBS undecided voters give it to Obama, 53-22.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:04:40 -0800

CNN snap poll: Who did better? Obama: 58% McCain: 31% Obama favorable: 66% Obama unfavorable: 33% McCain favorable: 49% McCain unfavorable: 49%

By: orange swan

orange swan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:05:10 -0800

Why on earth didn't Obama serve up a critique of Palin's qualifications?! He said he thinks she's a good politician for heaven's sake. I'm also thinking we're going to see a Joe the Plumber character on SNL.

By: Artful Codger

Artful Codger — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:06:11 -0800

> McCain wants to fire bad teachers and find them new jobs but then he wants to give vets teaching jobs without passing certification tests? WTF JOHN? Glad I'm not the only one who caught that. And, of course how he'd fund autism programs and such while holding to his across the board cut (except for military adventures, corporate tax cuts and free market bailouts, of course).

By: The Whelk

The Whelk — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:06:56 -0800

So anyone else notice that Obama had a red tie and McCain a blue tie, but their wives where in oddly similar kinda-60s dresses, Michelle in Blue, Cindy in Red? I just wonder about the odd, covert ninja tactics used by turnout clothing assistants. Morse code on the pipes "HE. ...PICKED .....BLUE..." that or they both wives have the same designer with a really fun sense of humor.

By: joedan

joedan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:07:04 -0800

McCain's deer in the headlights moment.

By: The Whelk

The Whelk — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:08:16 -0800

I'm apologize for the bad syntax. There was a drinking game.

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:09:32 -0800

Hilarious!

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:10:09 -0800

Why on earth didn't Obama serve up a critique of Palin's qualifications?! He said he thinks she's a good politician for heaven's sake. Because he could damn her with faint praise, and get no flak for it. He didn't say she was qualified - he said the American people would decide. Also, notice how he stressed politician - she's been trying to run as someone who is not a typical politician, and he just called her one.

By: sugarfish

sugarfish — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:11:04 -0800

I'm pretty convinced that John McCain was just drawing naughty caricatures with that big old sharpie of his all night.

By: FelliniBlank

FelliniBlank — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:11:25 -0800

He took the high road; people already know she's grossly unqualified.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:12:52 -0800

joedan: Oh man that split-screen is awesome for showing that moment! My feed was one-camera and it's not nearly as awesome.

By: Science!

Science! — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:14:37 -0800

Did Fox News release their text message poll on who won the debate? If not, when do they normally release them? Are they holding it back?

By: joedan

joedan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:14:56 -0800

Seriously. The way his jaw drops is priceless!

By: orange swan

orange swan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:15:50 -0800

Because he could damn her with faint praise, and get no flak for it. I think he should have gone ahead and talked about the problems with her record and qualifications. Flak be damned. Also I would have enjoyed seeing McCain try to rebutt what Obama said about Palin.

By: Science!

Science! — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:16:25 -0800

Never mind, the results will be released around 10:30 Central. I know you're waiting for it MeFites.

By: Miko

Miko — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:19:34 -0800

That debate was a freth of bresh air! Just got back from debate-watching party; now on to review thread for zeitgiest.

By: The Whelk

The Whelk — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:20:27 -0800

Never mind, the results will be released around 10:30 Central. I know you're waiting for it MeFites. WE DESIRE DATA NOM NOM NOM. Maybe it was because I was in a room full of liquored-up libruls, but that was a smack-down. Much for clear WIN than in the previous debate. And what was with the shaky, akward "thank you! thank you! thank you!" of McCain during the handshake. Odd, uncomfortable, and weird.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:23:36 -0800

I'm pretty convinced that John McCain was just drawing naughty caricatures with that big old sharpie of his all night. I think he was practicing his signature.

By: snofoam

snofoam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:25:06 -0800

McCain must have had some kind of vouchers, because he just got schooled.

By: Science!

Science! — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:27:32 -0800

snofoam just won the whole internets. I'm sorry

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:28:38 -0800

538 has a good roundup of post-debate polling. Stick a fork in it.

By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:29:06 -0800

mccain_buggin.gif

By: Surfurrus

Surfurrus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:30:58 -0800

LOL -- Loopy Eyes

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:31:55 -0800

Miko; I look forward to your analysis.

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:32:02 -0800

I think he was practicing his signature. "Mr. Joe the Plumber-McCain"

By: snofoam

snofoam — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:32:03 -0800

The other thing I want to say is this: Obama isn't out-fundraising everyone in history because the internet exists. There are plenty of things on the internet that I give absolutely no money to. Obama is awesome and his campaign is awesome. Even if he was up by 700 billion points, I would still give money, just so they could do cool campaign shit with it. Buy more airtime, make a video game where we could pretend to enact your policies, go make some more speeches in Europe. And, sure, win the election, too.

By: Surfurrus

Surfurrus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:33:09 -0800

OK, EAST Mani ... you are one faster than me!

By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:34:30 -0800

Uh, haha, does anyone notice that the first link in this post now redirects to a non-official site? Poor, panicking gop.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:34:32 -0800

McCain's Micro-Gaffes

By: HyperBlue

HyperBlue — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:40:29 -0800

Early on in tonight's debate I felt as though Obama wasn't responding well to McCain's lies. He seemed to be holding back. Too measured, too cautious. However as McCain continued to interrupt, go long, and generally display a disheveled and cantankerous demeanor it only served to make Obama look more Presidential. At every turn Obama took the high road, but he did it with spine. He eschewed the soft Palin underbelly target, but he deftly handled the Ayers/ACORN/Lewis charges, AND, he did it without slinging mud. He truly showed my inner Hater how to defend without giving offense. You could tell: this is a man who knows a. what he is talking about, b. where he is going, and c. how to get us to go there together. He defused every single "OMG! did Schiffer just ask that?!" moment. Finally, we have a candidate worthy of respect, and the highest office! McCain looked like a tired, frustrated, soul-less shell of a man. The grimmace. The snorts. The shame. He leads the tattered, embarrassing remains of his party to doom. The best thing we can do when Barak Hussein Obama is elected is to show love. Sure we have vitriol over the last 8 years of bad sport, lies, and the mess they've left us in as a nation. It will be extremely tempting to return some of the snark, gloating and dividing. We AS A PEOPLE must avoid this trap of hate, show some compassion for the misled, work together as one, and let the world see what kind of citizenry a PRESIDENT Obama inspires. The transformation will be historic. Epic even.

By: HyperBlue

HyperBlue — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:42:46 -0800

Barack

By: uni verse

uni verse — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:42:51 -0800

speaking of LOL, are there no lolpoliticians threads? (sorry lol-haters)

By: The Whelk

The Whelk — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:43:23 -0800

The transformation will be historic. Epic even. Demand Love?

By: Miko

Miko — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:44:59 -0800

when I went to bed in 2004, Al Gore was President-elect. Um, yeah. well spotted. anyway, you know where I was headed there.

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:45:37 -0800

McCain's hoity-toity "I'm taking out my pen and I am jotting that shit down." Camera zoomed-in on McCain's notes.

By: Flunkie

Flunkie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:48:07 -0800

Concern for the health of the mother is an "extreme pro-abortion position"?

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:51:42 -0800

He leads the tattered, embarrassing remains of his party to doom. Joe the Plumber better watch his back, lest McCain put his hatchet in it on his way there.

By: topynate

topynate — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:54:31 -0800

The single best moment of the debate, for me, was Obama's defence of labour organizers in Columbia. He didn't have to go there to make his case against the Columbia FTA, but it was the strongest, most moral argument to make, and he made it. Good for him for showing solidarity.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:58:28 -0800

McCain looked like a tired, frustrated, soul-less shell of a man. The grimmace. The snorts. The shame. He leads the tattered, embarrassing remains of his party to doom. To be fair, it's a gimme from the perspective of the Republicans. They gave him his shot, but they weren't expecting to win, which I think has a lot to do with why they gave it to him this year. They figure they'll rebuild and come back in 4 to 8 years. The party intellectuals are all signaling in that direction. I feel sort of bad for McCain, because they basically threw him to the wolves and didn't back him up too well. But then their claims of party discipline are only really relevant when they're winning. In decline, a political party is always undisciplined and in disarray, and it's clear they don't have a common vision this time around. What frustrates me so much these days is how quickly it swings back and forth. It has come to the point where getting anything done is a crap shoot for a brief moment between the furious battles over bullshit "culture war" issues and years-long campaigns, so people are constantly distracted from how they're being represented, and how their government is really working. I do hope the grassroots Obama has stirred up will move forward and continue to do work in the trenches, and I hope he'll encourage and cultivate it, because that's the only way this thing is going to actually work longer than one president's tenure. Any real change involves all of us, but I think this could be a moment when the opportunity presents itself. The Republicans figure, let the Dems have it, it will be a rough ride, but this is when real work gets done.

By: Rhaomi

Rhaomi — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:02:12 -0800

joedan: "McCain's deer in the headlights moment." If I didn't know any better, I'd say that was fake. He just holds that open-mouthed stare for so long. It almost looks like they looped his half of the screen. sugarfish: "I'm pretty convinced that John McCain was just drawing naughty caricatures with that big old sharpie of his all night." "Vice President Sarah." With hearts over the i's. Flunkie: " Concern for the health of the mother is an "extreme pro-abortion position"?" Sure. Nearly as extreme as that "present" vote he cast on the issue.

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:02:39 -0800

Concern for the health of the mother is an "extreme pro-abortion position"? As people begin to digest how fucking ridiculous it was for McCain to refer to a woman's health—nay, her life—in such a mocking, disrespectful and dismissive way, it will certainly hurt him, big time – at least outside of his angry, fringe, single-issue-voting base... and, well, they were voting for ~~him~~ Palin anyway. Big mistake on McCain's part.

By: Flunkie

Flunkie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:04:22 -0800

The single best moment of the debate, for me, was Obama's defence of labour organizers in Columbia. He didn't have to go there to make his case against the Columbia FTA, but it was the strongest, most moral argument to make, and he made it. Good for him for showing solidarity.

The split screen of this is... err... interesting. When Obama says that Colombian labor leaders have been targeted for assassination, McCain gets a little bit of an incredulous look on his face (not as big as the "Zero?!" gem, of course). But then when Obama continues, saying that there have been no prosecutions for these assassinations, McCain gives a big eyebrow-raising eye roll. As if he was reacting to something ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. As if concern over the lack of prosecutions for assassinations of labor leaders is completely ridiculous.

By: Avenger

Avenger — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:05:57 -0800

Concern for the health of the mother is an "extreme pro-abortion position"? I've heard pro-lifers describe it exactly thus. I've also heard them say, with straight faces, that there is no medical reason why a woman should ever need an abortion, ever. McCain was playing to the base with that comment, but hopefully Independents will chew on his pandering for a while.

By: Camofrog

Camofrog — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:06:12 -0800

God how bad I want to see what they write on their notepads.

By: zardoz

zardoz — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:08:01 -0800

Anyone know where I can download an mp3 of the debate?

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:08:49 -0800

Not that Jon Stewart doesn't have a gold mine of material to delve into already, but I'd love to see him take a look at those notepads. I bet McCain's is all angry drawings of Obama.

By: furtive

furtive — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:09:41 -0800

breash of freth air Someone forgot his Polygrip.

By: Combustible Edison Lighthouse

Combustible Edison Lighthouse — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:14:28 -0800

Zombie McCain!

By: Flunkie

Flunkie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:15:23 -0800

God how bad I want to see what they write on their notepads.

One thing that I thought was weird in the debate before this one - the one with Brokaw, where the candidates had chairs but were wandering around a lot: As they came out, there were already pads of paper on the little tables next to their chairs. McCain actually began writing as they were still being introduced, before he even sat down, and continued writing nonstop as he was in the process of sitting down and after he had sat down. It was as if he had been keeping a couple things in super-short term memory and needed to dump them out as soon as possible. I am curious as to what those things were. I imagine McCain standing offstage just before the debate begins, as Brokaw is giving his little intro speech, thinking "REMEMBER TO SAY OBAMA DOESN'T SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK REMEMBER TO SAY OBAMA DOESN'T SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK REMEMBER TO SAY OBAMA DOESN'T SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK REMEMBER TO SAY OBAMA DOESN'T SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK".

By: troy

troy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:20:19 -0800

hey gave him his shot, but they weren't expecting to win, which I think has a lot to do with why they gave it to him this year They "gave" it to him since every other qualifier was 10x worse -- a MORMON, folksy fundie Baptist minister, a little-L libertarian dweeb, an actor, a true whackjob, and Mr 9/11. Obama is the best of a rather sorry lot, that's why a freshman senator is running away in the polls. That, and the wheels of the Bush Economy have finally fallen off. Pretty shitty timing on that, yah.

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:21:09 -0800

"REMEMBER TO SAY OBAMA DOESN'T SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK REMEMBER TO SAY OBAMA DOESN'T SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK REMEMBER TO SAY OBAMA DOESN'T SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK REMEMBER TO SAY OBAMA DOESN'T SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK". NEVER PUT SALT IN YOUR EYES. NEVER PUT SALT IN YOUR EYES. NEVER PUT SALT IN YOUR EYES. PUT SALT IN YOUR EYES. ALWAYS PUT SALT IN YOUR EYES!

By: scody

scody — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:21:19 -0800

Hey, is tonight's barn-burner being repeated anywhere tonight? My bf was at the gym while I was watching it, and the stupid DVR didn't record it even though we programmed it to. (It did get an episode of Ghost Hunters: Joe the Plumber Edition, though, so thank goodness for that.) He did see manage to see most of it with the sound down, though, and he said McCain's body language and pissy faces and dilated, buggy eyes were just off-the-charts weird -- like he was on speed or something.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:22:36 -0800

Zombie McCain! Holy shit!

By: Combustible Edison Lighthouse

Combustible Edison Lighthouse — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:23:09 -0800

Hey, is tonight's barn-burner being repeated anywhere tonight? hulu.com

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:25:40 -0800

God how bad I want to see what they write on their notepads. In either case I suspect it was just "FUCK YOU" in big bubble letters, that's what I would have been writing at least. However if I was Obama, I would also have had that fucking snorting, eye-rolling rich dickhead smirk smacked off that old asshole's face with the quickness and him in an half-nelson saying "Uncle" and "Sorry Sorry Sorry" for his whole inhuman, pandering, hypocritical, war-mongering, meretricious, race-baiting, lying campaign. Which is why I'm not running for president on the democratic ticket, I guess. Please make sure to vote my friends, and please work on your racist grandmas and GOP uncles. Obama may not be enough to save this mess, but he is a million times better than the alternative.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:28:54 -0800

I am *so* looking forward to The Daily Show and Colbert Report tomorrow night. Fuck, yah.

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:31:35 -0800

I am *so* looking forward to The Daily Show and Colbert Report tomorrow night. Fuck, yah. Ditto. The Daily Show—especially Jon, during the interview—was particularly brilliant last night.

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:38:26 -0800

"Joe The Plumber" says Obama is 'almost as good as' Sammy Davis, Jr. Wha?! He also admitted that he makes less than $250,000 a year, meaning his taxes will not be raised.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:41:47 -0800

Do plumbers not make buckets of money in the US?

By: maryh

maryh — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:44:37 -0800

he said McCain's body language and pissy faces and dilated, buggy eyes were just off-the-charts weird -- like he was on speed or something. Maybe it's time Starbucks cut him off. The poor man is frapp-happy!

By: Miko

Miko — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:46:07 -0800

As people begin to digest how fucking ridiculous it was for McCain to refer to a woman's health—nay, her life—in such a mocking, disrespectful and dismissive way, it will certainly hurt him, big time... Yeah. It's political anathema, but part of me wishes Obama would paint this situation in stark, clear, and real terms, the kind of terms that most women listening to this with any life experience at hand understand: You're seven months pregnant. Your hope and desire is to become a mother; you've sacrificed your own physical comfort and body and time and perhaps your personal agenda to this dream for several months of your life because you want more than anything to bring a child into the world. During your seventh-month prenatal visit, your doctor informs you that something very serious is very wrong: your baby's heart has not formed. Or its lungs are not forming. Or its brain is forming...outside its skull. Or it has developed hydropcephalus; it's brain-dead, and you may die delivering it. Or your own constitution is failing due to a chronic illness or a pregnancy-induced illness. To carry the baby to term and give birth may mean you die as well as the baby, leaving your husband, the baby's father, grieving, shocked, and alone; leaving your parents, the prospective grandparents, bereft, your siblings without you. Your baby will never exist; you will likely cease to exist if you force the baby's birth. It's up to you to make the decision: will you try to carry to term, risking likely death for the baby, and/or you as well as the baby? What if you're the father - and the doctor says "We could take the risk, and you're likely to lose your wife and baby. Or we can terminate the pregnancy, and your wife stands a chance of living and perhaps you can try again." This isn't pretty stuff. It's the stuff of total, personal, human misery, the stuff of late-night tears, prayers, painful decisions, heartbreak, loss, regret, hiccuping sobs, misery, second-guessing, hard realities. But it takes place in a private family context that is fucking.not.political, any more than it's political when you have to decide to stop administering heroic measures for your geriatric parents or when you agree that your twenty-year-old son, felled by an auto accident and flatline brain-dead, can be an organ donor. It sickens me to see late-term abortion get dragged into the debate this way: exceptions for "the health of the mother" seem so light and flagrant, but in fact, when you're debating between the health of the mother and the death of the mother, it's pretty ficking serious business. It's personal, private, intensely medical, personally ethical, and it's really not the business of the federal government to dictate the proper course of action here. When the doctor says "your baby's dead, and I'm sorry, but you could die too if you try to carry to term," it's really hard to see why Governor Palin should be able to intervene. I wish someone would paint the reality of late-term abortion in full, painful color so we can see why the issue isn't a political football but a serious, personal, medical and ethical decision that falls far outside of ideology. "Partial-birth abortion" is such a bogeyman; I don't think most people reacting to that phrase have any idea at all what it really means or describes, or why it should not be a criminal offense.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:46:09 -0800

Don't they make white dentures? "I think the decision should rest in the hands of the states. I'm a federalist." Like Palin, McCain seems to think "federalist" means the opposite of what it really means. Stephen Breyer joined the Supreme Court in 1994. Obama joined the US Senate in 2005. McCain has an elitist way of pronouncing "rather." Do McCain and Palin not understand what pro-choice means? Palin told Katie Couric she'd "counsel the person to choose life." In tonight's debate McCain said, "It's got to be courage and compassion that we show to a young woman who's facing this terribly different decision." Hello! "Choose." "Decision." That's what pro-choice means! Note to McCain: lying about your opponent's position works better when he's not sitting right there and hasn't just said the opposite of what you claim he's said. Note to McCain 2: as discussed in previous debates, the audience has been instructed not to respond, so your mugging and corny jokes makes you look a little crazy. Count of times where Obama drank some water instead of calling McCain a lying motherfucker to his face: 2 I'm gonna give you all a $50 off coupon toward K-12. You ski the K-12 dude, and girls will go sterile just looking at you! McCain's deer in the headlights moment. That is a lot of blinking.

By: matteo

matteo — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:48:58 -0800

Obama may not be enough to save this mess, but he is a million times better than the alternative. McCain did look and sound bad tonight, just bad. simple as that. a bit creepy, too. bad show.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:49:44 -0800

"And, now, I think the American people are less interested in our hurt feelings during the course of the campaign than addressing the issues that matter to them so deeply." That was the line. Man, that was a great backhanded zinger.

By: Miko

Miko — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:50:50 -0800

I think she said "I'm a Federalist" in the Couric/Supreme Court debate, and I questioned that oo. Federallist meant something pretty clear to me when I studied American History. Turns out, though, that she's talking Newspeak: Bush's New Federalism means something different, and that's the Federalism Palin's talking about.

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:55:36 -0800

Katie Couric also called him Joe Wurzelburger, and he indeed turns out to be a font of Republican talking-points. Is it possible the McCain camp actually vetted Joe better than they checked out Sarah?

By: lunit

lunit — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:58:58 -0800

Whew. That passed uneventfully. Just a little under three weeks left to go...

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:59:15 -0800

Note to McCain 2: as discussed in previous debates, the audience has been instructed not to respond, so your mugging and corny jokes makes you look a little crazy. Despite this, Obama did get a laugh line. I forget what it was ... anyone remember?

By: Dragonness

Dragonness — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:00:28 -0800

In trying to cast doubt on Barack Obama, John McCain threw the kitchen sink at him — along with the plumber.

By: Bobby Bittman

Bobby Bittman — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:01:54 -0800

Despite this, Obama did get a laugh line. I forget what it was ... anyone remember? When he dissed Fox News, saying even they disputed some of McCain's claims against him.

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:02:05 -0800

Despite this, Obama did get a laugh line. I forget what it was ... anyone remember? Mentioning that even Fox News didn't believing some claim, and that there were few claims about Obama that they would dismiss.

By: drezdn

drezdn — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:02:50 -0800

Since you're all in the tank for Obama, you missed the fact that McCain wrapped up a very coveted demographic tonight—plumbers who make more than $250,000 a year.

By: jb

jb — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:03:05 -0800

didn't believing I should sleep now.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:05:22 -0800

Yeah, that's right. Getting a laugh with that sort of audience with explicit instructions not to react is not easy. I knew he had it in the bag at that moment.

By: defenestration

defenestration — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:07:08 -0800

Since you're all in the tank for Obama, you missed the fact that McCain wrapped up a very coveted demographic tonight—plumbers who make more than $250,000 a year. Except for the fact that he doesn't make $250,000 a year. A joke – I know, but the whole fucking thing is a joke.

By: teraflop

teraflop — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:17:12 -0800

Watching or reading anything about this election is starting to give me the same tense, anxious feeling I get from watching the Space Shuttle countdown clock.

By: joedan

joedan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:17:16 -0800

Holy hell, it gets better: check out McCain's eyeroll.

By: joedan

joedan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:18:22 -0800

I'm getting flashbacks of Gore sighing...

By: Avenger

Avenger — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:19:30 -0800

For those who are interested, prolifephysicians.org has a handy summary of why abortions are never medically necessary, specifically regarding eptopic pregnancies: The abortion exception for the life of the mother is the exception that most commonly seduces the sincere pro-lifer. The scenario in which this exception is most frequently packaged is an ectopic pregnancy, which is when the embryo attaches somewhere inside the mother’s body in a place other than the inner lining of the uterus. It is argued that in an ectopic pregnancy, an abortion must be performed in order to save the mother’s life. What is rarely realized is that there are several cases in the medical literature where abdominal ectopic pregnancies have survived! ... Incidentally, this organization is based in .... *drumroll* .... Ohio.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:22:06 -0800

About Joe the Plumber ... On January 9, 2008, the United Association [of Plumbers and Pipefitters] became the first International Union to endorse Senator Barack Obama as its candidate for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States.

By: joedan

joedan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:22:49 -0800

Great clip, defenestration. How long before Joe the Plumber gets his own talk show?

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:28:41 -0800

Just a few more days 'till the big "medical emergency" -October-surprise.

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:33:32 -0800

What is rarely realized is that there are several cases in the medical literature where abdominal ectopic pregnancies have survived! There are also "several cases in the medical literature" of people surviving after having nail gun accidents that lodge spikes in their brains, too. Shall we draft national policy around this?

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:40:50 -0800

I have a theory on McCain's sharpie -- he uses a fat felt pen to take notes with because he doesn't want to wear reading glasses and it's the only way he can see his notes.

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:48:24 -0800

Joe the Plumber is an interesting guy. It seems like he set out with a specific intention of tripping Obama up on a question. Then, when that failed, he's set himself up as some sort of pundit arguing that he didn't like Obama's answer. I'd like to see someone get the same nuanced and detailed answer from McCain.

By: garlic

garlic — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:54:42 -0800

re: ectopic pregnancies -- My mom had one when I was really small. She was at work as a nurse at a catholic hospital when it had to be taken care of. They were going to take care of it via surgery, but refused to do anything to her other gonad. She had already had her tubes tied, but just in case the next ectopic pregnancy could come to term, they wouldn't remove the other side. re: Joe the plumber video -- That guy's sort of a dick. "We don't know Obama's plans" "Well, I'm not making more than 250,000 now, but what if Obama says 100,000 is the tax rate in the future"

By: frenetic

frenetic — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:55:11 -0800

That was the best debate out of all of them. Bob Schieffer deserves an award or a kiss on the lips or something for not being a pushover or a douchebag. Really well done. I thought McCain did an OK job painting Obama as being too eager to spend. I think Obama could have come back with more "I'm going to pay for that stuff by cutting crappy programs" or "we need to pay for the RIGHT things". But Obama basically came off great as usual. McCain was kind of sputtery and awkward and didn't speak in terms the average folk could understand, in my opinion.

By: joedan

joedan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:57:26 -0800

Absolutely. Schieffer deserves a medal.

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:59:22 -0800

Or, saving a little money otherwise spent in YOUR war in Iraq, John.....

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:09:56 -0800

McCain's "woman's health" air quotes

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:12:21 -0800

Note to McCain 3: it's "you can't blink," not "blink 43 times after Obama says 'zero.'" "Certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations." -- John McCain, 1999. McCain tonight: "I am not president Bush. If you want to run against president Bush, you should have done that four years ago." McCain 2005:

The fact is that I have agreed with President Bush far more than I have disagreed. And on the transcendent issues, the most important issues of our day, I've been totally in agreement and support of President Bush....I will argue my conservative record of voting with anyone's, and I will also submit that my support for President Bush has been active and very impassioned on issues that are important to the American people. And I'm particularly talking about the war on terror, the war in Iraq, national security, national defense, support of men and women in the military, fiscal discipline, a number of other issues. So I strongly disagree with any assertion that I've been more at odds with the president of the United States than I have been in agreement with him.

I have a theory on McCain's sharpie -- he uses a fat felt pen to take notes with because he doesn't want to wear reading glasses and it's the only way he can see his notes. He may also have arthritis or something that makes it difficult for him to grasp a smaller pen.

By: Rumple

Rumple — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:19:58 -0800

"I am not president Bush. If you want to run against president Bush, you should have done that four years ago." As one of the talking heads said, McCain himself could have run against Bush four years ago.....

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:27:37 -0800

I doubt he was writing anything down. He just needs something to occupy his twitchy body while Obama speaks. The Rolling Stone article linked somewhere above is an excellent read. McCain is a spoiled, self-indulgent bastard who is no war hero: he spilled his guts to the Vietcong and has spent his life fucking-over the people in his life. A vote for McCain is a vote for the end of the USA as a powerful first-world nation.

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:51:19 -0800

A vote for McCain is a vote for the end of the USA as a powerful first-world nation. Well, to be fair, the USA stopped being that around 2004.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:53:11 -0800

Paris Hilton lied to me. What happened to "See you at the debates, bitches"?

By: arcanecrowbar

arcanecrowbar — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:59:22 -0800

So yeah, I'm totally in the tank for Obama and I may not be the most unbiased observer but that debate was a McCain flameout. With his pursed lips and ghoulish smile and wild eyebrows and feverish, staring, glare and huffy mugging asides to the camera, John MCCain looked somewhat less than presidential, and his catchphrases? Jesus seriously, his catchphrases? What really got me tonight about those catchphrases ("countries who don't like us very much", "I've got the scars to prove it", "miss congeniality") was that when I got that awful feeling of being punched in the gut by stupidness, I flashed back on the last time I felt it, the VP debates, and why, and I got it. McCain is Palin. Sorry I didn't realize it earlier. Sorry I wondered for so long why he chose her. McCain is, or has somehow become, just as stone dumb as Palin is, and does nothing but spout tiny hateful speeches with all the subtlety and content of detergent slogans, crafted for him by someone or some group of someones with more cynicism than brains. Thankfully, our guy is a gentleman and a scholar. Maybe it's because I lost the drinking game tonight, but I'm ready to be optomistic now. We're going to win.

By: troy

troy — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:01:07 -0800

self-indulgent bastard who is no war hero: he spilled his guts to the Vietcong not to piss on the fine pro-Obama vibe we've got here, but I find this statement . . . fucked up; the direct analog of Malkin putting it out there that Kerry shot himself to get out of his service. While being a good open-minded free thinker I can not condemn the North Vietnamese for torturing our captured fliers -- our guys were, after all, shot down over NVN while engaged in a years-long and often questionable terror bombing campaign of civilian areas and infrastructure -- to slag on McCain's service as a POW and his breaking under torture is beyond the pale of decency and shows little understanding of character and the realities of McCain's situation.

By: winna

winna — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:07:51 -0800

Divine Wino, I adore you for using the word 'meretricious'. It sums up the current Republican strategy so beautifully I've been using it myself for weeks.

By: Solon and Thanks

Solon and Thanks — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:11:30 -0800

I agree with troy. No one needs to move into those sort of nasty "purple heart band-aid" arguments. It's not as if we're exactly short on things to mock and criticism McCain for, here.

By: scody

scody — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:19:23 -0800

Agreed: there are plenty of examples of McCain's lack of honor and shitty politics and grotesquely self-serving behavior, but breaking under torture ain't one of them.

By: Korou

Korou — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:26:39 -0800

A "lexical analysis of 2008 US Pres. and VP debates." On the page are weighted word maps, as well as things like sentence size and a "windbag index." Their lexical summary:

Speech structural parameters of candidates fall within very narrow tolerances, suggesting high degree of wordsmithing and rehearsal. For example, noun/verb/adjective/adverb ratio is nearly identical, as is unique word count and noun phrase profile. Speech of Presidential candidates is more complex and less repetitive than that of their Vice-Presidential counterparts. Biden is the most repetitive speaker. The Obama/McCain debates began with balanced performance from both candidates but end with Obama verbally overpowering McCain with overwhelming superiority in concepts delivered.

By: bardic

bardic — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:29:10 -0800

As an ex-pat who couldn't watch the debate live, I *heart* mefi. Comedy gold in here, people. Comedy gold. Oh, and it looks like we're going to have a president we can be proud of again come January. Thank God.

By: winna

winna — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:36:51 -0800

Miko gave an excellent summary about late term abortion above. The percentage of late term (after 20 weeks) abortions in the US is roughly 1.4%. This is about 1200 procedures a year. And given the nature of the procedure, this is not something people are romping in to do before getting a mani-pedi at the spa, nor is it something a health care provider will do without a damn good reason. If anyone is interested in the way the treatment of abortion has evolved in the US since the late 1800s when it was first made illegal, a good book is Leslie J Reagan's When Abortion Was a Crime. In particular the book looks at how the idea of pregnancy has evolved as we've grown more able to predict a positive outcome for the mother and child as well as how the rationale and motivations for abortion evolved as the medical community became more engaged in the process. Just a fun fact: before the development of accurate pregnancy testing women thought of the beginning stages of pregnancy and the stoppage of periods as a very grey area. Women took what we would now consider abortificants to regularize their period. The definition of pregnancy was quickening, which is when the mother first feels the baby stir. In the late Twenties scientists developed a cumbersome and expensive test which involved injecting rodents with the urine of pregnant women to determine pregnancy. At this point the ongoing professionalization of medicine meant that women began to rely on doctors to determine their pregnant status rather than making a self-determination. At this point the way pregnancy began to be defined by the diagnosis of pregnancy by a doctor. At this point abortion was legal as long as it was performed by a doctor. This continued throughout the Thirties, with doctors making not only medical determinations about whether or not abortion was acceptable, but economic determinations. Women who could not support additional children were given abortions by doctors. There were abortion clinics working openly. During the Forties the rise of the family culture and the prominence of the abortion providers in the Thirties caused a backlash against abortion providers. While few doctors were punished for providing abortions, doctors and hospitals set up committees to determine if abortion was appropriate into the Fifties and Sixties. The key determination now was not whether your doctor thought you had a medically or (after Freud became popular) psychologically fit to be a mother, but whether the hospital committee who were collectively under pressure from the state to reduce the number of abortions thought you should have one. Doctors began to agitate against these standards for humanitarian as well as administrative reasons, along with feminist collectives and the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion in the late Sixties. This agitation eventually led to the Roe v Wade decision. It's a rough summary of the timeline and I do not do it justice, so if the above seems interesting, Reagan's book is fascinating, well-written and much more in depth.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:46:19 -0800

McCain repeated his weird line of attacking Obama for not opposing his own party. 1. Obama's not claiming to be a maverick that sometimes goes against his party, so criticizing him for not going against his party doesn't make any sense. 2. The entire time Obama's been in the Senate, George W. Bush has been president, so naturally Obama would be voting with the Democrats and against Bush most of the time. McCain's basically trying to criticize Obama for not voting with Bush enough.

By: MikeKD

MikeKD — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:46:45 -0800

For those of you (like me) who missed the debate, C-SPAN has a stream of it (Real Video) up at their site.

By: clearly

clearly — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:51:20 -0800

Maybe it's because I lost the drinking game tonight, but I'm ready to be optomistic now. We're going to win. That's downright preposterous. You can't lose at a drinking game.

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:57:20 -0800

Though some drinking games are easier to win than others.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:56:08 -0800

On Yahoo's front page: McCain fails, Obama is not rattled George Stephanopoulus: McCain's Best Debate, But Obama Still Won US presidential debate: Polls suggest Barack Obama beat John McCain

By: mullingitover

mullingitover — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 02:14:14 -0800

Whoa, this is interesting: Paddy Power is paying out early for bets that Barack Obama will be the next President. Of course, this doesn't mean it's in the bag:

The Irish betting company has paid betters prematurely in the past. On June 12, shortly before polls closed, Paddy Power said it would pay out 80,000 euros ($107,176) on bets that Irish voters would ratify the European Union's governing treaty, adding that the ballot was ``in the bag.'' Voters came out against the treaty by about 53 percent to 47 percent.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 02:23:46 -0800

Oh, I nearly forgot InTrade, which called Florida for Bush in 2004 and saw Obama beating Clinton last February. They've currently got the chances of an Obama victory versus a McCain victory at 84.1% and rising to 16.7% and falling, respectively. Keep in mind that the gambling community isn't as concerned about party platforms in these predictions as they are with, well, winning their bets.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:17:05 -0800

If a picture paints a thousand words ...

By: orange swan

orange swan — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:53:00 -0800

I hope that picture is widely copied, Marisa.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:05:00 -0800

I hope that picture is widely copied, Marisa. Oh, don't worry - it's making the rounds.

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:24:15 -0800

McCain's basically trying to criticize Obama for not voting with Bush enough. Which is doubly odd, considering that the Democrats and Obama have voted for a great portion of the critical, influential and far-reaching aspects of the Bush Doctrine.

By: EmpressCallipygos

EmpressCallipygos — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:27:41 -0800

I wish someone would paint the reality of late-term abortion in full, painful color so we can see why the issue isn't a political football but a serious, personal, medical and ethical decision that falls far outside of ideology. People have tried. Women who had had to have late-term abortions testified before congress during that particular debate about how and why. And it still didn't help.

By: Marisa Stole the Precious Thing

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:56:18 -0800

Jon Swift: In Defense of Angry Mobs:

This country wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for an angry mob that decided it wanted a tax cut and threw English tea into Boston Harbor. Angry mobs once enforced local justice without interference from the meddlesome federal government in the Old West and in the south after Reconstruction, just as our Founding Fathers had envisioned in The Federalist Papers. And we would probably all be Muslims now if an angry mob hadn’t chosen Barabbas over Jesus 2,000 years ago. The Republican Party certainly owes a lot to angry mobs. Angry mobs in Little Rock and Selma deeply concerned about the issue of state’s rights, angry mobs of parents in Boston who didn’t want their kids bussed across town and angry mobs of Chicago homeowners who didn’t want their property values to go down all helped give birth to the modern conservative movement.

By: Rykey

Rykey — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 05:09:07 -0800

I hope that picture is widely copied, Marisa. I'm waiting for his awesome rendition of the robot that followed directly after this to come out on YouTube, set to music.

By: Brandon Blatcher

Brandon Blatcher — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 05:35:13 -0800

McCain repeated his weird line of attacking Obama for not opposing his own party. I was disappointed that Obama didn't say something along the lines of "Because my party hasn't completely screwed everything up, John. Taking an occasional stand against the Republican party of today doesn't make you a hero, it's the barest measure of having common sense."

By: Rykey

Rykey — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 05:35:47 -0800

Y'know, Marisa, after thinking more about our brief discussion of Obama's chances of winning, I should probably clarify my argument a little. My skepticism about an Obama win is less a rant about the stoopidness of the average American than an observation about how little thought goes into voting on the part of a very large number of people in this country. A great many number of people indulge in about five seconds of political thought per year; instead of being the culmination of their careful consideration of the issues, which way these people vote is influenced by social forces like their church (if you've ever been to a service in an evangelical church, it's clear who the leadership is rooting for, even if they don't name names), their family's tradition of voting for a certain party, or even just who's lampooned more down at the local watering hole. So, in essence, many, many people know next to nothing about which candidate stands for what (beyond one or two token issues), but believe it's important to vote. It just seems to me that this block of voters tends to fall into the reactionary, flag-waving camp. Interesting ideas here all around, at any rate.

By: East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 05:35:52 -0800

perfect

By: taz

taz — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 05:42:37 -0800

oh, god... *slaps self* ... I keep feeling sorry for McCain at various points throughout this campaign period, and the zombie McCain pic is another instance of this - it's just such a typically ordinary human sort of face and gesture to make when you realize you're doing the wrong thing (trying to go in the "out" door, mistakenly walking into the Ladies instead of the Gents, whatever). Yet the fact that pity is an emotion that seems to continue to assert itself in regard to this candidate (despite how much I utterly deplore so many of his tactics and strategic choices) is heartening. I can't be the only one reacting this way, and it is not a feeling that inspires confidence in one who is bidding to be the next Commander in Chief of the United States. At any rate, I do think we saw altogether too much of John's tongue during this debate. Get that thing under control, man!

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 05:45:42 -0800

Concern for the health of the mother is an "extreme pro-abortion position"? To be fair, McCain was being consistent. He also suggested that believing that nuclear plants should be "safe" is an extremist position.

By: Brandon Blatcher

Brandon Blatcher — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:17:22 -0800

okokok I really wanted to hear Obama say "It's ok John, you can rest now. You got seven beautiful homes, a loving family, you've done the best you can, it's time to retire to the porch," while gently patting his hand and helping him off stage.

By: flarbuse

flarbuse — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:23:39 -0800

Apparently, McCain claims to be a maverick whenever he does not vote with the Republicans. Put another way, McCain is a maverick when he votes with the Democrats. Obama should say, "If you are a maverick sometimes because you don't vote with Republicans, then I guess that makes me a maverick all the time." I would also like Obama to add a cheerful, mocking "motherfucker!" at the end of that sentence.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:37:32 -0800

to slag on McCain's service as a POW and his breaking under torture is beyond the pale of decency and shows little understanding of character and the realities of McCain's situation.

Soon after McCain hit the ground in Hanoi, the code went out the window. "I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital," he later admitted pleading with his captors. McCain now insists the offer was a bluff, designed to fool the enemy into giving him medical treatment. In fact, his wounds were attended to only after the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a Navy admiral. What has never been disclosed is the manner in which they found out: McCain told them. According to Dramesi, one of the few POWs who remained silent under years of torture, McCain tried to justify his behavior while they were still prisoners. "I had to tell them," he insisted to Dramesi, "or I would have died in bed." Dramesi says he has no desire to dishonor McCain's service, but he believes that celebrating the downed pilot's behavior as heroic — "he wasn't exceptional one way or the other" — has a corrosive effect on military discipline. "This business of my country before my life?" Dramesi says. "Well, he had that opportunity and failed miserably. If it really were country first, John McCain would probably be walking around without one or two arms or legs — or he'd be dead." Once the Vietnamese realized they had captured the man they called the "crown prince," they had every motivation to keep McCain alive. His value as a propaganda tool and bargaining chip was far greater than any military intelligence he could provide, and McCain knew it. "It was hard not to see how pleased the Vietnamese were to have captured an admiral's son," he writes, "and I knew that my father's identity was directly related to my survival." But during the course of his medical treatment, McCain followed through on his offer of military information. Only two weeks after his capture, the North Vietnamese press issued a report — picked up by The New York Times — in which McCain was quoted as saying that the war was "moving to the advantage of North Vietnam and the United States appears to be isolated." He also provided the name of his ship, the number of raids he had flown, his squadron number and the target of his final raid.

Read the Rolling Stone article. I know it's long and full of words, but you deserve to know the real story, not the fairy tale.

By: nax

nax — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:42:51 -0800

Are there plausible October surprises that could flip the results at this point Not to be ghoulish, but I think if Nancy Reagan dies the Repubs are going to get a bump.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:43:40 -0800

Damn, this is a good ad: 90% It's a good example of the Obama campaign's political jujitsu: take McCain's best one-liner of the night and build an attack around it, add a devastating soundbite, and sprinkle in some goofy faces from the debate.

By: jb

jb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:49:53 -0800

Read the Rolling Stone article. I know it's long and full of words, but you deserve to know the real story, not the fairy tale. posted by five fresh fish 10 minutes ago [+] I'm skeptical on the Rolling Stone article - I talked to a naval historian about it, and their account of the Forrestal disaster was very misleading.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:51:07 -0800

A top adviser, former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, said Obama is considering expanding his active campaign back into North Dakota and Georgia, from which he’d shifted resources, and into the Appalachian heartland of West Virginia and Kentucky.

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:56:03 -0800

Nancy Reagan is going to be fine. And Obama is going to be president. I am allowing myself the slightest indulgent fantasy as I drift off to sleep, imagining the reports from cities around the world, but especially in the global south -- Jakarta, Nairobi, maybe in particular -- on the evening of Nov. 4 at about 9PM EST when this thing is called a landslide for Obama. The pure catharsis of redemption in the eyes of the world, a second chance for the American model for democracy to show what it can do even under the heel of tyranny (as I think we will come to view the Bush years, a slow motion coup d'etat against the American people and the constitution). Mind you, there's a lot of making up to do, but I predict it will be instantly safer and happier to be an American abroad on Nov. 5, and that most American citizens will find themselves taken by surprise at the joy they will feel at no longer being feared and/or despised quite as much for their recently dumb and blind attitude of entitlement and exceptionalism. Back in 2004, I remember a young African American woman asking a question at a town hall debate about what the candidates would do to make it less shameful to be an American with a passport, in almost those words. That was always a resonant question for me in this election, and a big reason I've been for Barack since the day Kerry lost. I am not counting chickens. I've been working on the campaign. I've given all I can give. I trust only the headline in the New York Times on Nov. 5. I fear a last minute CIA-engineered surprise from Bush. But I find it helpful to visualize the finish line and why it's worth it to survive what's coming and keep fighting for just 19 more days. Yes. We. Can.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:01:11 -0800

@jb, so maybe McCain's only 90% super asshole?

By: drezdn

drezdn — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:11:32 -0800

With the way the McCain campaign has been lately, I'm half expecting an ad where they attack Obama for being too old and pointing out that he could die at any time.

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:14:21 -0800

I hope that picture is widely copied, Marisa. Oh, don't worry - it's making the rounds. It's a Reuters photo. They show Obama as not cropped out in the full photo. Compare and contrast the two candidates.

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:16:04 -0800

Newsweek: McCain deploys a kitchen-sink strategy

By: NoRelationToLea

NoRelationToLea — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:18:18 -0800

As much as I would have liked Obama to have his share of "OH SNAP!" moments, he's doing what he needs to do. The task at hand is to convey himself as disciplined, knowledgeable, serious, authoritative - presidential (which might be easier for him because heaven help us, he might really actually BE all of those things instead of merely performing). Tit for tat (note repeated use of that phrase during the debate) with some failed military prince doesn't really do him any favors. His entire approach to McCain is the right one. Respectful, but ultimately dismissive. McCain is a problem for the next four weeks, but clearly, this man wants to get to work, already.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:21:06 -0800

It's a Reuters photo. They show Obama as not cropped out in the full photo. Compare and contrast the two candidates. LOOK OUT SENATOR OBAMA! Zombie!

By: schyler523

schyler523 — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:21:47 -0800

Wow, just wow...that picture is just perfect.

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:21:58 -0800

I saw that photo (cropped and uncropped) on DU this AM and laughed so hard I spit my coffee up. If there is any justice, it will exactly compensate for Dukakis in the tank. It's that iconic. In a more trivial time, it might sink a campaign. Here, it just needs to stand for a sinking campaign. By the way, does anyone else especially hate the way Sarah Palin says "Barack Obama?" Now she's repeating the "as my running mate said last night, if he wanted to run against President Bush he should have done it four years ago" line in Maine right now. You can taste the defeat in her voice today, however. It's a curled up ball of rage, but it's defeat.

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:23:50 -0800

BTW, here's the new GOP meme theme for the day: Obama is mean -- overconfident, smug, arrogant are the buzzwords. Wow.

By: jb

jb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:24:19 -0800

@jb, so maybe McCain's only 90% super asshole? posted by chunking express at 10:01 AM on October 16 [+] [!] After the Swift-Boating of John Kerry, I think we should all be aware of how stories can be twisted for political purpose. I had read the Rolling Stone article, and was equally shocked. Then I started talking to a naval historian, and he pointed out all sorts of inconsistencies in the article - things that might look bad to a reporter who didn't understand military procedure but which would actually be the right thing to do as far as anyone in the Navy was concerned. Like getting out of the way of the men who had been trained to fight fires, and reporting to your duty station. As for the POW accounts - I would never hold any judgement of anyone in such a situation because I have not been, and I do not know what I would have done. But here, as well, it is easy to twist what was actually a much more complex situation than the article makes it out to be. I just don't think that honest political fights are about dragging up questionable articles whose only purpose is to blacken a man's character by twisting things and painting them in the worst light. His policies and current political platform reflect his current character and what he values: McCain should be judged on that.

By: Brandon Blatcher

Brandon Blatcher — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:26:04 -0800

my opponent. he has a flavor.

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:26:05 -0800

New Obama Ad: McCain = 90% Bush.

By: cjorgensen

cjorgensen — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:31:38 -0800

billyfleetwood: "Until I see a poll that shows 10% of Americans really believe that if Obama wins, Bin Laden will be the new host of the Tonight show, and we're changing the name of the NY Yankees to the New York Al Quedas, I'm not giving the wackos any play." Even then, I'd want to see if Bin Laden has the comedy chops, and could care less what the Yankee's want to change their name to. cjorgensen: “So in the interest of preserving fair elections I do think exit polls should be outlawed.” Smedleyman: "The press too. They say a lot of things that could influence elections. We should outlaw them as well." Then I would be out of a job. I don't think anyone would be hurt by disallowing the results of the polls being announced until after the polls have closed. But I don't think you've been reading what I've written. If another country had elections as messed up as our 2000 elections were, and we were observers in that country, we wouldn't have certified the results. I have no problem with monitoring the polls (someone else points to exit polls as a method of keeping polls honest or to identify discrepancies). I do have problems with what I see as interfering with the process. Press and pollsters aren't allowed inside, many states have laws about how close they can be outside. I'm just saying these rules should be consistent from state to state, and the results should not be allowed to be reported until after the poll closes. There should also be checks on the data gathering and accuracy, but as it stands now, you can choose to stand outside, for however long you feel is needed to get your "sample," then you can call it how you see fit, as soon as you see fit to call it. cjorgensen: "Exit polls are too screwed up, inaccurate, biased, and uncertain to have any real value." krinklyfig: "I'd like to see some data backing this conclusion. Otherwise, you're sorta talking out your butt." They're not hard to find. Report Acknowledges Inaccuracies in 2004 Exit Polls http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22188-2005Jan19.html HAVE THE EXIT POLLS BEEN WRONG BEFORE? http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/have_the_exit_p.html Egg On Face of Exit Pollsters http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137451,00.html Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? http://www.amazon.com/Was-2004-Presidential-Election-Stolen/dp/1583226877 If you want any more, do your own damn research, or go ahead and crawl up inside my ass and look for whatever information you think you'll find there. A lot of exit polls are just college kids standing outside getting answers from the people willing to give them. There's no way to check the truth of what the voter chooses to say or get any kind of demographics. Nor is there anyway to check the accuracy of what the pollster chooses to report. It was on the basis of exit polls that Florida was called for Bush, then Gore, then Bush, then too close to call. Forgive me if I place enough importance on the process to want the results to match what's reported.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:33:21 -0800

That 90% Bush thing is an old idea apparently.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:33:54 -0800

BTW, here's the new GOP meme theme for the day: Obama is mean -- overconfident, smug, arrogant are the buzzwords. Wow. I'm no longer surprised when they do this. I still think it's bizarre, but it seems to be their strategy. Whatever thing they are doing, they attack Obama for doing. I'm not sure why they think that will will people over, but it really is striking that every attack they use reflects exactly what their own campaign is doing and should be wary of calling attention to. Yet.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:37:00 -0800

From Five Thirty Eight:

McCain's implication that Obama was principally responsible for the negative tone of the campaign was simply not going to be credible to most voters. Certainly, the Obama campaign has been negative at times -- more often than either the Al Gore or John Kerry -- and on several occasions explictly misleading. But voters came into the debate thinking by 2:1 margins that McCain was running a negative campaign and Obama a positive one. To try and fight against that tide was a significant mistake.

By: sugarfish

sugarfish — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:47:31 -0800

That's one thing I thought about during the debate -- McCain kept harping on about how much money Obama has spent on negative ads, more than anyone in history. Yeah, well, when you have as much money as his campaign has, of course you're going to spend more money on everything! What's he supposed to do, sit on a big cushion of donations until November 5? Buy half hour slots on network TV just to play Donald in Mathmagic Land*? * I have been giggling over that comment since I saw it.

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:48:23 -0800

McCain Frowns, Rolls Eyes, Blinks More Than 3,000 Times

"A Democratic researcher spent the evening counting the Arizona Republican's blinks, and tallied more than 3,000 during the night's affair -- three thousand blinks in a 90-minute time span. They even compressed a 30-second clip of those blinks into a nine second video."

By: Pantengliopoli

Pantengliopoli — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:49:42 -0800

By the way, does anyone else especially hate the way Sarah Palin says "Barack Obama?" Now she's repeating the "as my running mate said last night, if he wanted to run against President Bush he should have done it four years ago" line in Maine right now. But what the hell is she doing in Maine? At this point, they should cash themselves out and go to Vegas to hit the tables... it'd be money better spent.

By: snofoam

snofoam — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:53:15 -0800

McCain Frowns, Rolls Eyes, Blinks More Than 3,000 Times He and Palin are the perfect ticket - like Jack Sprat and his wife!

By: snofoam

snofoam — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 07:55:41 -0800

Also: “I am not going to be President ~~Bush~~.” Fixed that for him. Ha ha!

By: effwerd

effwerd — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:04:35 -0800

But what the hell is she doing in Maine? Maine's 1st Congressional District could be considered in play but McCain's chances there are about as slim as Obama winning in Nebraska's 2nd Congressional District. But you're right. Counting on that one electoral vote isn't a winning strategy for McCain right now.

By: krinklyfig

krinklyfig — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:05:07 -0800

cjorgensen writes "It was on the basis of exit polls that Florida was called for Bush, then Gore, then Bush, then too close to call. Forgive me if I place enough importance on the process to want the results to match what's reported." Exit polls have historically proven to be accurate in most elections. There has been a recent effort to discredit exit polling on the behalf of Republicans, at least since the 2000 election which to me is in line with their attempts to discredit science, intellectuals and community organizers. The problem you talk about in the media had to do with the media, not so much the exit polling, and perhaps we need to continue to prohibit exit polls from being released until after the votes are counted. The thing to keep in mind is that exit polling is a tool that we use for analysis. It's not an end unto itself, but it is used to detect fraud, and this happened recently in Ukraine. If there are issues with the polling, they can be worked out, and that is much less serious than issues with voting.

By: orange swan

orange swan — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:09:48 -0800

That's one thing I thought about during the debate -- McCain kept harping on about how much money Obama has spent That came across as ridiculously jealous and childish. McCain sounded like a ten year old who's mad because a ten-year-old classmate (the one who gets better grades and is better looking and more popular, especially with the girls) was able to get a paper route and can spend his earnings on things like an iPod. "Yeah, well, you're spoiled and iPods are dumb anyway!"

By: orange swan

orange swan — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:13:29 -0800

But what the hell is she doing in Maine? It's damage control. Palin may not do the GOP much good there, but she can't do much harm either.

By: Floydd

Floydd — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:18:00 -0800

So Palin's taken her "...breast of flesh...air" to Maine, now?

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:21:40 -0800

Dramatic McCain vs. Dramatic Chipmunk!

By: Ghidorah

Ghidorah — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:25:52 -0800

I read through the transcript when I got home this evening. Some things mentioned in the thread didn't make the New York Times' transcript, strangely. Still, when I got to Obama saying that he'd try to stop the practice of refusing health care for pre-existing conditions... as someone who's had back problems and surgeries since age of 20, who just can't get insurance back in the States, if I wasn't voting for him before, I am now. I never thought I could be a single issue voter (and I like to think I'm not), but not being able to get coverage for my back is one reason (of several) why I live overseas. Before I said I joked that if Bush won in 2000, I'd stay overseas. Tonight, I thought, "Holy shit, Obama's going to help me come home."

By: uncleozzy

uncleozzy — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:34:43 -0800

Dramatic McCain What I'd like to do is take McCain's side of the screen from the "ZERO?!" clip--which I didn't get to see, on PBS, I might add--and stick it into the split-screen from the entire debate. Moderator asks a question: ZERO?! Barry's talking about education: ZERO?! He's asked for a closing remark: ZERO?!

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:47:07 -0800

Obama has spent on negative ads, more than anyone in history. Yeah, well, when you have as much money as his campaign has, of course you're going to spend more money on everything! So let me get this clear, from the fact checkers I've heard and read this morning: Obama has spent more on negative ads than anyone in history. OK. Obama is outspending McCain on advertising at a rate of around 3 to one. Wow, OK. About one third of Obama advertising is negative and close to 100% of McCain's is negative. Jeez. So, if I do my maths correctly: One third of three times X is an equal ammount. So doesn't that mean John McCain has spent more on negative advertising than anyone in history too?

By: PenDevil

PenDevil — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:47:17 -0800

Whenever I see that 'Zero!?' clip I can't help but picturing Scooby Doo doing the voice... "Zweroh?!?"

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:50:21 -0800

Why didn't McCain run against Bush in 2004? McCain said, "Every time there's been an out-of-bounds remark made by a Republican, no matter where they are, I have repudiated them." Really? Does he repudiate Sarah Palin every time she says Obama pals around with terrorists? At the Saddleback appearance in August, McCain named John Lewis as one of the "wisest people that you know that you would rely on heavily in an administration." Why demand that Obama renounce his comments (even though Obama already did)?

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:50:39 -0800

'Angry McCain' At Final Debate Already Famous On YouTube

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:51:02 -0800

But what the hell is she doing in Maine? My guess is she's talking about moose hunting a LOT.

By: 912 Greens

912 Greens — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:54:04 -0800

Being from Chicago, I was incredibly annoyed that McCain brought up the goddamn projector again. I mean, we have a mayor who goes around stealing airports in the middle of the night. Or whatever. And the best you can come up with on Obama is this motherfucking projector bullshit. Fuck that.

By: Happy Dave

Happy Dave — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:55:11 -0800

John McCain appears to be going for the 'kindergartners who like to be patronised' demographic. Or maybe he's just really shit at reading scripts. McCain Plan: Rebuild Savings Grow Investments Energy Independence Details? Why have details when you can speak in an odd voice meant to sooth, but which actually terrifies and annoys simultaneously.

By: scody

scody — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:55:37 -0800

So, if I do my maths correctly: One third of three times X is an equal amount. So doesn't that mean John McCain has spent more on negative advertising than anyone in history too? My friends, this is just another example of Pollomacho's eloquence. But you've got to really listen to what he's saying under all those words: an "equal" amount. "Equal"? That idea of "equal" has been stretched to mean anything by the extremist pro-arithmetic movement. What it really means, my friends, is that we can't be certain of anything Pollomacho tells us except that he's going to fine people who don't balance their checkbooks every month. Joe the Plumber, Pollomacho is going to fine you, and he won't even tell you how much that fine is.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:00:20 -0800

McCain started off two of the three debates by saying an old person was in the hospital.

By: cashman

cashman — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:01:01 -0800

I'm no longer surprised when they do this. I still think it's bizarre, but it seems to be their strategy. Whatever thing they are doing, they attack Obama for doing. I'm not sure why they think that will will people over, but it really is striking that every attack they use reflects exactly what their own campaign is doing and should be wary of calling attention to. They do this to blunt criticism, and are essentially playing a game that works because of what is essentially a loophole in thought and discourse that can happen because of the time-crunched society that exists now. For years this tactic has built itself up, and it's playing itself out on an absurd scale. What they're doing probably has a name, but I'll just explain it in general terms - it's a false controversy. It's essentially the "teach the controversy" nonsense, where you have a mountain of scientists on one side, and a few dingbats on the other, and you say "it's a controversy!" This happens in a number of fields where there is general agreement that something is wrong, but in the misguided attempt to give time to what are supposed to be differing opinions but are typically completely disregarded ones, somebody with a bs view gets equal time and thus some issue that shouldn't even be getting questioned is posed as an ongoing dispute. And people don't have time to dig into the details, so they just chalk it up as an "ongoing dispute" and wait to hear the final verdict, which never comes because the media keeps giving airtime to knuckleheads. So to bring it back, what McCain's campaign does when they accuse Obama's campaign of what they're doing, is set it up for the media to say "The McCain campaign and the Obama campaign have been trading accusations of negative ads," and "Today McCain and Obama each accused each other of having supporters who say violent and dangerous things at their rallies." Which is indeed the only explanation for McCain's insane suggestion that anybody at an Obama rally had been screaming "kill him" or anything close to the level of the shouts Obama has received, towards McCain. So you see this reflected in the opinions of the uninformed. Notice how the undecided viewers typically are like "we don't care about the personal attacks or the back and forth, focus on the issues." Partly that's because of the situation the country is in, but it's also a reflection of this bewildering barrage of claims the general public doesn't have the time to follow, investigate and sort out. So it won't win anybody over - it'll just keep them ignorant of the dirty crap that goes on at their rallies, and the dishonorable way he's been carrying himself.

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:02:14 -0800

Fact-Checking ‘Joe The Plumber’.

By: jamaro

jamaro — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:03:48 -0800

This image has given me the greatest joy all morning. Rest of it is here, but that first panel really captures the deftness of Obama and his campaign's ability to turn around whatever McCain's campaign comes up with back onto them.

By: snofoam

snofoam — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:04:17 -0800

Gamechanger Dept: John McCain just announced a radical new plan to make dinner time earlier. He was just on Fox News claiming "millions of Americans are simply too hungry to wait." The proposed plan will provide immediate relief to the elderly, his friends and fellow prisoners.

By: scody

scody — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:09:43 -0800

And oh, god, that "Angry McCain" video ericb links to is so priceless. The best part, I think, is actually Obama's reaction very early, around :08. It's like a parent talking to a pissy little brat who keeps interrupting, thinking he's really getting his digs in and setting the agenda while the adult just isn't even fazed: "Little Johnny and I have some differences about chores and allowance--" "And I better get my allowance tonight!" "--which is what we're discussing right now, Johnny." I mean, seriously, it's a thing of fucking beauty. McCain sits back with this weirdly manic smug look of "HA! I brought up a topic WE'RE GOING TO DISCUSS! Take THAT, Mr. Double-Digit-Lead" and Obama, totally in control and essentially swatting away a rhetorical fly, doesn't even blink. I fucking love him.

By: effwerd

effwerd — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:11:59 -0800

Okay, wait. So Joe the Plumber isn't undecided, isn't a plumber, and his name is actually Sam?

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:12:50 -0800

Obama at a fundraiser this morning:

“For those of you who are feeling giddy or cocky and think this is all set, I just say one word. I guess it’s two words for you: New Hampshire. You know, I’ve been in these positions before where we were favored and the press starts getting carried away and we end up getting spanked. And so that’s another good lesson that Hillary Clinton taught me.”

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:22:18 -0800

I don't think anyone would be hurt by disallowing the results of the polls being announced until after the polls have closed. Except the idea of a free press who doesn't need the government's permission to publish. There's no way to ... get any kind of demographics. This is simply false. Exit polls commonly offer demographic crosstabs. The way you "get any kind of demographics" is by doing the amazing thing of asking "How old are you?" or "Do you usually think of yourself as a Democrat, a Republican, or what?"

By: fleetmouse

fleetmouse — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:27:17 -0800

Martin Eisenstadt’s Blog Joe “the Plumber” Wurzelbacher related to Charles “the Crook” Keating. Oops. October 15th, 2008 . by Marty John McCain did great tonight in the debate. But every time John mentioned “Joe the Plumber,” some of us in the campaign banged our heads against the wall. If Steve Schmidt had any hair left, I hear he would have been pulling it out tonight. He reportedly screamed at John’s debate prep team tonight (out of earshot of reporters, of course). “You idiots - he’s related to Charles Keating… of the Keating Five scandal!” They thought they had a real live Joe Six-Pack who’s spurned Barack Obama’s tax plan. But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher’s background. Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:33:30 -0800

Thanks cashman. You spelled out the train of thought I was starting to have but hadn't quite fully figured out yet. Once this is over I'd like to make a list of the McCain/Palin claims about Obama, dates first made, and how they're usually accurate criticisms of some new development in their own ticket.

By: orange swan

orange swan — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:36:54 -0800

McCain started off two of the three debates by saying an old person was in the hospital. Well, to be fair, in his peer group, many of his friends probably are in the hospital or dying off. It was interesting hearing him mention Nancy Reagan and his hopes for her recovery. According to the Rolling Stone article on McCain, the Reagans and Nancy especially never forgave him for his treatment of his first wife, as the two couples had been friends. I can just see Nancy sitting up in her hospital bed thinking, "I don't need your prayers, you mofo. I just want to live long enough to see Obama cream you in the election."

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:37:27 -0800

But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher’s background. I LOVE it! Once again the flat-footed fuck up big time. Too bad Joe wasn't a veterinarian! McCain would have said "Joe the Vet" 26 times. Vet, vet, vet...