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America must look negative ads in the eye and try not to vomit
October 23, 2008 4:54 PM   Subscribe

Last week, an absentee ballot request mailer was sent out locally by the Republican Party of Virgina. The return envelope bears an ambiguous, yet eerily familiar, picture along with some strong words. Some bloggers weigh in. via
posted by phunniemee (87 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite

 
Fucking fuckers. Jesus Fucking Christ.
posted by ORthey at 5:03 PM on October 23, 2008


Don't blame me... I'm voting the Matlock / Happy Days ticket!
posted by markkraft at 5:03 PM on October 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


It's Robert DeNiro, isn't it.
posted by Balisong at 5:04 PM on October 23, 2008


It's pretty ingenious, I gotta admit.

To complain about it, you have to admit that you confused Barack Obama with Osama bin Laden.
posted by designbot at 5:07 PM on October 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


Wait, people are upset because they thought a mailer featured a picture of Obama, when it didn't?
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 5:08 PM on October 23, 2008


The sepia tint and cropping are meant to tie the two (Obama and bin Laden) together at the subconscious/"lizard-brain" level. That is what's vile about it, in addition to the standard party-mailer lies and distortions.
posted by R_Nebblesworth at 5:09 PM on October 23, 2008


designbot: that's not true; you have to complain about the appeal to cowardice.
posted by boo_radley at 5:10 PM on October 23, 2008


I got one.

And I got a second one with the dreaded "Bill Ayers connection". Complete with innuendo and half-truth after half-truth.

I wonder why the flyer never mentions Walter Annenberg, or the fact that Mayor Dailey consulted Ayers regularly, or that Ayers was Chicago's "Citizen of the Year" in 1997? Or that the only "Americans that the Weather Underground killed" were other members?

Fuck Republicans and their character-assassination scripts. Not only are they clueless, they're predictable and tired. (Lies coming from your own mouth say waaaaaay more about your character than your associations ever could, anyway.)
posted by Benny Andajetz at 5:12 PM on October 23, 2008 [8 favorites]


I am so very, very sick of these people who are afraid of everything and think we should be, too. I don't see Obama in that photo at all, just the same old xenophobic, racist stereotype used to emphasize the paranoia about being vigilant and safe. Jesus. Loosen up and live your life instead of looking for fear around every corner. What the hell is wrong with people?
posted by Heretic at 5:13 PM on October 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


I think that's Joe McCarthy.
posted by Class Goat at 5:16 PM on October 23, 2008 [10 favorites]


Wait, people are upset because they thought a mailer featured a picture of Obama, when it didn't?

You speak like this is a coincidence. This flyer didn't evolve naturally. It was intelligently designed by a malevolent gop.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:20 PM on October 23, 2008 [5 favorites]


It was intelligently designed by a malevolent gop.

Ah ha! So you admit there is intelligent design! I can count on your vote against teaching evolution in our schools then? Right? Right?

By the way, you spell "god" with a "d" and not a "p."
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:24 PM on October 23, 2008 [3 favorites]


Terrorist!
posted by joe lisboa at 5:27 PM on October 23, 2008


It's obviously Osama Bin Laden.
posted by fire&wings at 5:29 PM on October 23, 2008


I saw a face once in a piece of toast.

[It was a very small face and I curse that broccoli marmalade.]
posted by mandal at 5:34 PM on October 23, 2008 [3 favorites]


That's nothing. You should see the Obama-is-a-friend-of-terrorists (Bill Ayers) mailer I got from the North Carolina Republican Party.
posted by 3.2.3 at 5:36 PM on October 23, 2008


You speak like this is a coincidence. This flyer didn't evolve naturally. It was intelligently designed by a malevolent gop.

I suppose I would take it more seriously if it looked anything like Obama to me. Instead, I'm just left with the impression that some people are spending too much time thinking about Obama that now every brown-skinned man looks like him.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 5:36 PM on October 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


This constant misuse of the word "appeasement" is really starting to irritate me.
posted by Slothrup at 5:43 PM on October 23, 2008


People really thought that it looked like Barack Obama? I instantly recognized it as Osama bin Laden, and thought it was just more hackneyed redneck th'turrists bullshit until I read the blog links claiming that the intent was to make a subconscious Obama=Osama connection. I think that may be reading a little too much into it, but then I'm not the target audience and have long since given up trying to understand how the people who are the target audience for it think.
posted by DecemberBoy at 5:44 PM on October 23, 2008 [4 favorites]


I guess someone has to say it.........RON PAUL!!!!! I'm so burned out on this election I just may write Ron Paul in on my ballot (I'm assuming Obama pretty much has a lock on Wisconsin).
posted by MikeMc at 5:46 PM on October 23, 2008


America might well be able to look evil in the eye, but I doubt you have the courage to go stare for stare with Sigmund “Siggy” Spatsky.
posted by Abiezer at 5:55 PM on October 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


See, here's the thing, though -- the mailer doesn't say that those eyes on the mailer are the evil eyes. They COULD be the eyes of America who are "looking at evil and refusing to flinch."

So, in some way, you could also say that the GOP is ENDORSING Obama.

...Or not. Honestly, I didn't make the "that looks like Barack Obama" connection. I could see why some could, but I didn't see enough of a resemblance to turn away from the bigger issues (let's go after that Ayers mailer instead, is my point).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:58 PM on October 23, 2008


My first was Bush. It's Bush, right? Am I right? I'm right, aren't I?
posted by DU at 6:04 PM on October 23, 2008


Oh, fuck them anyhow. I keep wanting to send back their propaganda with a note strongly advising them to take me off their list, but I'm happy to let them waste the postage.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:05 PM on October 23, 2008


I looked Steve Buscemi in the eye once.

Once.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:12 PM on October 23, 2008


Anyway, this is just more racist bullshit from the GOP, with the usual, disingenuous protestations of innocence from their apologists. No surprises, here. Will the mainstream media gain the courage to address this? Probably not. No surprises, there, either.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:13 PM on October 23, 2008


I'm in Northern Virginia, and I got that mailer last week. I also got the Obsession mailer today (every registered voter member of our household did). It was obviously sent directly from the voter registration lists, as that's the only place that uses both of my middle names.

In contrast, the two most recent pamphlets from the Democrats were both hand-delivered to our door instead of mailed. One of them said "Vote!" on the outside, while the other one said "Vote for Change!". On the inside, both of them just had information about all the democratic candidates (President/Senate/House/County Board). A very different tactic. I thought the contrast between them was pretty telling.
posted by gemmy at 6:26 PM on October 23, 2008 [6 favorites]


Just in case this is the official "absentee ballot hijinx" thread: I live in Florida, and am a registered Democrat. I requested an absentee ballot several weeks ago. Having not received it, I called the office of the supervisor of elections today to ask whether I could simply vote early in person, or whether that would raise some sort of trying-to-vote-twice red flag. Note that up until now my experience this year has been that our supervisor of elections, a Republican, has been almost fanatically transparent in an attempt to head off any indications of cheating or bad behavior. I've actually kind of been impressed, although I admit that my bar was set pretty low.

Today I was told that my absentee ballot had been mailed to an address in Charlotte, North Carolina. I have no idea why, and they couldn't tell me. They indicated that voting early in person shouldn't be a problem; at this point I'll believe it when I see it.
posted by penduluum at 6:27 PM on October 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


I don't know who the hell that guy is, but he has NO NOSE OR MOUTH!
posted by MarshallPoe at 6:41 PM on October 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


As a big fan of the zombie movie genre, I am tremendously enjoying the beginning of the Republican Party's cannibalization of itself. McCain tears the throat out of the Bush administration. Loyal Republicans start gnawing on McCain's legs. Metaphorically speaking, of course. It's every man for himself now in the McCain campaign and the party itself. And it's especially every woman for herself. Watch over the next 12 days as Palin subordinates McCain to a loser also-ran and tries to set herself up for a 2012 run...while McCain looks daggers at her.

Man, this is gonna be *so* much fun.
posted by jamstigator at 6:54 PM on October 23, 2008


If the Republicans want to look Osama bin Laden in the eye and never flinch, maybe they should stop noodling around and, you know, start looking. They still have a couple months to pull their legacy out of the fire...somehow...maybe....
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:56 PM on October 23, 2008


This constant misuse of the word "appeasement" is really starting to irritate me.

Oldie but a goodie.
posted by rokusan at 7:07 PM on October 23, 2008


Let's hope the McCain campaign keeps it up... or even better yet, outdoes themselves.

McCain's most stalwart backers are starting to not believe what they're saying anymore to support this kind of behavior, because the campaign's bad behavior is starting to reflect badly on them and their personal character. Many are increasingly feeling angry and ashamed about having to defend such behavior.

Meanwhile, all the daily tracking polls show Obama expanding his lead significantly... and surprisingly enough, his negatives aren't going up with all these attacks. Quite the opposite.

I hate to say it, because I absolutely was disgusted by large parts of the Clinton campaign, but it did significantly immunize and take the sting out of these sorts of childish attacks...

And people *ARE* seeing it as not just partisan and typically political, but ugly, disrespectful, and childish behavior, that completely undermines McCain's supposed experience and gravitas. Desperate, but not serious... like the rest of the McCain campaign. They've actually become a parody of themselves, essentially confirming that the biting mockery of their campaign is fair and on target.

Really, about the only thing left for the McCain campaign at this point is to drop the N bomb.

But hey... there are still about two weeks left!
posted by markkraft at 7:13 PM on October 23, 2008


Hey kids! Here's their website address: http://www.rpv.org/

Why not write to them? Voice your anger? Hold them accountable?

Why? Because it feels good. Rock on.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:20 PM on October 23, 2008


"Your message has been sent. Someone will be in touch with you shortly.

Thanks for your interest in the Republican Party of Virginia."
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 7:25 PM on October 23, 2008


What I complain about: "Dear Senator McCain and Governor Palin. I am concerned about international terror and waiting for some discussion from your campaign as to how you plan to address this complex issue both at home, in our allied countries, and throughout the world. Do you have a PowerPoint or a PDF or a postcard? Anything?
"You have raised this issue several times. Trust me, we're aware. Can we get on to steps two and three where you define what you mean by terror and present your strategy?"
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:43 PM on October 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


I wonder why the flyer never mentions Walter Annenberg, or the fact that Mayor Dailey consulted Ayers regularly, or that Ayers was Chicago's "Citizen of the Year" in 1997? Or that the only "Americans that the Weather Underground killed" were other members?

Tell that to the nine children of Boston Police Officer Walter Schroeder. He was killed by members of the Weather Underground during a bank robbery using guns stolen from an armory.
posted by Gungho at 7:44 PM on October 23, 2008


My first was Bush.

Reggie Bush? He's not a terrorist, he's a Saint.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:18 PM on October 23, 2008


I hate to say it, because I absolutely was disgusted by large parts of the Clinton campaign, but it did significantly immunize and take the sting out of these sorts of childish attacks.

You can't possibly claim causality there. Obama handled the nasty attacks from the Clinton camp, Obama handled the nasty attacks from the McCain camp. Based on the evidence, his organization is just plain good at handling negative campaign attacks.

I don't think the order of events is significant.
posted by rokusan at 9:00 PM on October 23, 2008


Personally, I think it would have been more effective if they had used the eyes of the Dramatic Hamster.
posted by odasaku at 9:12 PM on October 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


This is a very rational, sane, and cogent message.

They're right that the world is dangerous and our foreign policy should not at all be appeasement, I mean George Bush handed Osama bin Laden everything he wanted. We can't do that and expect...

Republicans sent this out?

That's just crazy talk, man.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:24 PM on October 23, 2008


It should be pointed out that Ayers had already gone underground before Weather Underground members Susan Saxe and Anne Power got involved with with ex-cons, Stanley Ray Bond. Robert Valeri, and William "Lefty" Gilday, in a plot to rob a bank.

And no, it wasn't a formal Weather Underground plan to do the bank robbery in question, and the shooting wasn't done by a Weather Underground member, but by Gilday.

So, really, you can't blame Ayers for that one. You *CAN*, however, blame him and his fellow members for the non-violent bombing tactics they used.

Ayers doesn't renounce what he did, but why should he be held responsible for what others did, especially when it wasn't done under WU auspices?

Are you arguing for guilt-by-association-by-association or something?!
posted by markkraft at 9:48 PM on October 23, 2008 [3 favorites]


All of this effort to subconsciously tie Obama to Osama and to generally associate Obama with terrorists, actually works in Obama's favor.

Hear me out - this is subtle. For seven years Americans have been encouraged to fear terrorists. During the heyday of hysterical fear (immediately post 9/11) Americans were held hostage by the fear of another attack. Time has passed and to some degree the repetitive reminder of this fear, coupled with the absence of any further attacks, has lessened the conscious awareness of immediate fear. But we have not been given any permission to let down our guard.

The Stockholm syndrome is the name for a well known psychological adjustment made by hostages in long-term captivity; an identification with and loyalty toward the captor. If we cannot escape our captors then we must become them.

We cannot literally become terrorists, but if we embrace a figurative terrorist at a subconscious level then we offload our status as hostages. In this way, to the degree that we have on some deep subconscious level an equation of Obama with terrorists while on a more conscious level we accept that he is not really a terrorist (and who really thinks he is?) then an embrace of Obama fulfills the basic function of the Stockholm syndrome. By voting for Obama we can stop being afraid.

I believe that the conservative strategists who thought it a good idea to connect Obama with terrorists really understood this even deeper working of subconscious subtlety.
posted by twoleftfeet at 9:53 PM on October 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


The last line should have read I don't believe...
posted by twoleftfeet at 9:54 PM on October 23, 2008


Tell that to the nine children of Boston Police Officer Walter Schroeder. He was killed by members of the Weather Underground during a bank robbery using guns stolen from an armory.

No. One of the individuals involved in this robbery was also involved with the Weather Underground.

The WU drew a clear line regarding violence against persons: they were against it.
posted by flotson at 10:02 PM on October 23, 2008


non-violent bombing tactics

What, they made bombs that said it with flowers instead of violent concussive force and/or shrapnel?
posted by davejay at 10:40 PM on October 23, 2008


"The last line should have read I don't believe..."

I'd believe it more if you had a gun to my head....handsome.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:58 PM on October 23, 2008


Watch over the next 12 days as Palin subordinates McCain to a loser also-ran and tries to set herself up for a 2012 run...while McCain looks daggers at her.

Man, this is gonna be *so* much fun.

posted by jamstigator

And people *ARE* seeing it as not just partisan and typically political, but ugly, disrespectful, and childish behavior, that completely undermines McCain's supposed experience and gravitas. Desperate, but not serious... like the rest of the McCain campaign. They've actually become a parody of themselves , essentially confirming that the biting mockery of their campaign is fair and on target.
...

But hey... there are still about two weeks left!

posted by markkraft

Right. There are still twelve days to go, during which anyone with a stake in this race must keep the momentum going and continue turning every attention to the matters this campaign has based itself upon.

Let's discuss tactical and political errors once McCain's been defeated; until then, I think we should continue to push the facts and resist the temptation to gloat. Nothing's more painful than defeat by reason of complacency.

/wet blanket
posted by Graygorey at 11:08 PM on October 23, 2008


Let's discuss tactical and political errors once McCain's been defeated; until then, I think we should continue to push the facts and resist the temptation to gloat. Nothing's more painful than defeat by reason of complacency.

restated fo shiz.
posted by CitizenD at 11:48 PM on October 23, 2008


OH. MY. GOD.

When I look into those eyes I see... no, it's too horrible, too awful, too evil! But, I must, I must tell you! When I look into those eyes I see... a plate of beans.
posted by Panjandrum at 1:22 AM on October 24, 2008 [1 favorite]


Does anybody else find it odd that Republicans use the image of Bin Laden as a rallying point, when they've had exactly 0% success at finding him even while commanding the world's (and history's) largest imperial war machine for 8 years? While subverting a large chunk of the US constitution so they can extract information from whoever they want using any means they chose? So what, now they're going to really really try?
posted by signal at 6:12 AM on October 24, 2008


markkraft Really, about the only thing left for the McCain campaign at this point is to drop the N bomb.

You have to get to be President first, to get to do that.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 6:23 AM on October 24, 2008


As a Virginian by birth, I'm rather embarrassed by the actions of the Virginians in the state GOP. It seems that over the course of the last eight years or so, the state has been sliding Democratic with two consecutive Democratic governors, a Democratic senator, and a sure shot second Democratic senator in office after this November. Not to mention the capture of one of the houses in the state government by the Democrats, as well. My only guess is they're getting desperate and willing to do anything to try and hang on to their place in the state, despite the momentary gain.

My father has voted Republican for nearly most of his life. In fact, it's a family thing that extends back more than a century to a point when the Republican party had different values and goals. Needless to say, it's a long tradition. He considers himself a Republican. However, in 2006, he said he couldn't bring himself to vote for the party after the events of the past years and voted for Jim Webb. On Wednesday of this week, he went to a fund raising meeting. It was for Obama. While part of the Democrat success in Virginia has come from the arrival of Democrats to the state, some of it are Republicans who simply can't stomach voting for the folks of the GOP any more.
posted by Atreides at 6:39 AM on October 24, 2008


I don't know that the Obsession folks used the Republican voter logs to mail out that piece of crap. I got it in the mail this week and I'm NOT a Republican.
posted by onhazier at 6:43 AM on October 24, 2008


Truly what I saw in that face was the face of Jesus. Confronting evil. Early Italian Renaissance, perhaps. What? Was I supposed to see something else?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:02 AM on October 24, 2008 [1 favorite]


an ambiguous, yet eerily familiar, picture

The picture didn't make me think of anyone at all. I did think it was butt-ugly, though.
posted by lukemeister at 7:23 AM on October 24, 2008


I myself live in constant fear of the intelligent designs of a malevolent Gob.

Beware America, it's not just a dirty trick.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:26 AM on October 24, 2008


Ah the old fashioned, straight forward values of the Republicans.

I wonder what it is like to be so sure of yourself and worldview that you have absolutely no problem lying and using trickery to get your way. They like to portray themselves in some Norman Rockwell-esque light, but would the characters he portrayed do this kind of shit. It boggles my mind. Shouting that you are one of the little guys while wearing Prada. Justifying torture after having been tortured, and using your experience of it as a qualification for president. And on and on with no acknowledgement of just how odd these contradictions are.

I think the Republican party is filled with sociopaths.
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 8:11 AM on October 24, 2008 [1 favorite]


George Bush, played by Will Ferrell, on SNL last night:

"George Bush always finds his man save for one huge exception."
posted by lukemeister at 8:13 AM on October 24, 2008


> My father has voted Republican for nearly most of his life. ...However, in 2006, he said he couldn't bring himself to vote for the party

I think (hope) that there is an awakening to the fact that the current GOP is not the natural home of a genuine small c conservative. Lying, starting wars of opportunity, yelling "government is the problem" while increasing it at the same time, letting the economy veer off into a ditch... these are NOT conservative values.

If the Democrats can address the concerns of this group while also improving the lot of the poor, and tackling things like education and healthcare, they would have a lock on the center.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:29 AM on October 24, 2008


In the beginning I expected this election to be filed with ugly coded racism against black folks. But I never expected it to be a referendum on brown folks and our freedom-hating ways. Which I suppose is the quasi-acceptable proxy for racism against black folks. But it's like the "macaca" moment was prophetic and now we're hearing a chorus of thousands of "macacas." Except we get the quasi-acceptable proxies for that, "arab," "terrorist," "islamofascist" and so on. Honestly for a hatred and fear of the other that appeals primarily to the lizard brain, you wouldn't expect this kind of thing to be so fucking convoluted.
posted by naju at 8:59 AM on October 24, 2008


I think (hope) that there is an awakening to the fact that the current GOP is not the natural home of a genuine small c conservative. Lying, starting wars of opportunity, yelling "government is the problem" while increasing it at the same time, letting the economy veer off into a ditch... these are NOT conservative values.

Well you would hope, but I'm not comforted by the fact that, despite the righteous hate-on for W, the moment Palin came along it was the triumph of the (supposed) everyman/person again over experience and expertise. It took awhile longer for people to figure out that Palin in particular is a lost cause and for McCain to lose a few more marbles. In the meantime, we get this succession of candidates who fail on every measure and people seem to be incapable of reaching broader conclusions about what actually makes for good government. Oh sure Bush sucks and Palin is a liar, but the next rich, buzzword-spewing hypocrite is gonna be great!
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:54 AM on October 24, 2008



Are you arguing for guilt-by-association-by-association or something?!- markkraft

So you are taking the same tack that Obama is. Ayers was a distant influence on these murderers, but because he didn't pull the trigger his work forming the group which inspired them does not count? If Obama cannot see the evil this man and his wife perpetrated, and cannot see that associating with them is like acknowledging and approving of his past then at the least he is showing poor judgment. I'm sure there are a number of less violent 60's radical professors and less violent neighborhood activists he could have chosen to work with.
posted by Gungho at 11:45 AM on October 28, 2008


I'm sure there are a number of less violent 60's radical professors and less violent neighborhood activists he could have chosen to work with.

...It's not like neighborhood programs across the country have some kind of cross-comparative chart discussing the background of its members, you know.

Come on. Haven't you ever heard of a person repenting their past actions? Should we ALL be held accountable for what we did in our past? Things which many of us wish we could live down? Or are we all to be forever marked as "unclean" if we did something wrong in our pasts?

....What was that about "he without sin, cast the first stone..."?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:43 PM on October 28, 2008


Well, you know, if I had the opportunity to work with an organization that had millions of dollars in hard cash, was well-place in the community, and able to effect change for the things I wanted to work for, but there was someone on a board who had been a crazy criminal asshole decades ago - even if that person had wised up and was now celebrated by the city (not to mention by the people who had funded the organization with their millions) for his rehabilitation and good works - I'd just say no. I'd cut and run. That's what kind of integrity I have.

It's really a shame that Barack only knows those three people. You'd think what with campaign travel and be on the teevee, he'd meet some new friends.

You've really convinced me, Gungho, in this election I voted for judges. But no more! That whole class of people is bad. I shun them for their crimes. Don't let them try to confuse me with talk of judges who are only a little bit bad, or do good things - I've seen the light.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:03 PM on October 28, 2008


Should we ALL be held accountable for what we did in our past? Things which many of us wish we could live down? Or are we all to be forever marked as "unclean" if we did something wrong in our pasts?-empresscalypso

I'm saying there's a difference between a neighborhood teenage thug who knocked over little old ladies and a guy and his wife who bombed government offices, advocated revolution and enabled (by association ;-)) the robbery of armories and banks.
posted by Gungho at 11:37 AM on October 29, 2008


I'm saying there's a difference between a neighborhood teenage thug who knocked over little old ladies and a guy and his wife who bombed government offices, advocated revolution and enabled (by association ;-)) the robbery of armories and banks.

And I'm saying thre's a difference between a guy who advocated revolution and enabled robbery four decades ago, but then reformed, and was respected by the community, and a guy who is still advocating revolution and enabling robbery today, and shows no signs of repentance.

Ayers is the former. The latter kind of person would be someone like Ted Kazinsky. You can tell by the fact that we put Ted Kazinsky and not William Ayers in a maximum security prison.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:16 PM on October 29, 2008


By your count Ayers should be the one running for office. There is a huge difference, and Obama should have distanced himself. Not this Hey I was 8 years old at the time crap.
posted by Gungho at 1:15 PM on October 29, 2008


By your count Ayers should be the one running for office.

How do you make that connection?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:51 PM on October 29, 2008


Read your own endorsement...And I'm saying thre's a difference between a guy who advocated revolution and enabled robbery four decades ago, but then reformed, and was respected by the community,- empress calypso

Should he also be Knighted? All I'm saying is Obama should have known that his relationship with Ayers or anyone with that kind of history would not be looked upon kindly by his opponents. I know of several former criminals who have 'seen the light', and become positive elements in the community. None however were labeled Terrorists during their crime spree.
posted by Gungho at 4:16 AM on October 30, 2008


Read your own endorsement...And I'm saying thre's a difference between a guy who advocated revolution and enabled robbery four decades ago, but then reformed, and was respected by the community,- empress calypso

....But I was making a comparison between William Ayers and Ted Kazinski. Barack Obama didn't even enter into that comparison. Why are you comparing Ayers and Obama, when I was comparing Ayers and Kazinski?

...Oh, and by the way, you're spelling my name wrong.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:58 AM on October 30, 2008


Who brought up TK? Did Obama bunk in his cabin? Did Obama Start a Fellowship with him? I'm not comparing Ayers and Obama I'm lamenting Obama's choice in community organizers.
posted by Gungho at 6:38 AM on October 30, 2008


Who brought up TK? Did Obama bunk in his cabin?

....Please don't be deliberately obtuse.

I brought up TK because you were talking about Ayers' "terrorist past," and I was pointing out that there was a difference between Obama serving on a committee with someone who had committed questionable acts four decades ago but had repented and was now seen as a community leader by that community (Ayers) and Obama serving on a committee with someone who had done so THIS decade and had not repented (Kazinski).

Because -- no, Obama did NOT bunk in Kazinski's cabin. Because Kazinski HASN'T repented. Ayers HAS. There IS a difference between Ayers and Kazinski.

Did Obama Start a Fellowship with him? I'm not comparing Ayers and Obama I'm lamenting Obama's choice in community organizers.

...No, Obama didn't start a fellowship with Kazinski. But he also didn't start a fellowship with Ayers EITHER. So I'm not sure what your point is. Are you under the impression that Obama personally organized this committee and selected Ayers? Because that's not what happened -- Obama heard about this committee and JOINED it, and didn't know Ayers was even involved until he showed up at one of the meetings.

If you want to blame someone for having "bad choice in community organizers," blame the guy who actually DID helm the meeting. Obama was not that person, though.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:16 AM on October 30, 2008


OK I give up. So you are saying that like his church the meeting only had one door that was labeled IN, and that when he discovered who Ayers was he chose to stay, and that that is a good thing.

Oy Vay!
posted by Gungho at 9:15 AM on October 30, 2008


So you are saying that like his church the meeting only had one door that was labeled IN, and that when he discovered who Ayers was he chose to stay, and that that is a good thing.

No, I'm saying that Obama knows that there is a difference between what someone did forty years ago and what someone is doing today. And he knows that people who made mistakes 40 years ago can honestly repent, and the good that they do today should not be shunned because of mistakes they made 40 years ago.

But it seems that YOU are saying that even if someone does something like discover a cure for cancer, we should completely disregard their work if we discover that 40 years ago they may have been a drug addict who held up a liquor store. I mean, never mind that they went to rehab and that that's what got them interested in medicine and never mind that this cure has received peer auditing and has been tested to be 100% effective-- doesn't matter, you're saying, because 40 years ago they were an addict. To hell with their cancer cure, you're saying! Right?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on October 30, 2008


No. I'm saying if you are running for President you should keep your distance, or at least not be the one (or is the The One?) who makes first contact. There's no precedent for any Presidential candidate hanging out with known terrorists (Clinton and Arafat excluded), so of course Obama will be scrutinized for his association with Ayers. I hope that is clear enough.
posted by Gungho at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2008


No. I'm saying if you are running for President you should keep your distance, or at least not be the one (or is the The One?) who makes first contact. There's no precedent for any Presidential candidate hanging out with known terrorists (Clinton and Arafat excluded), so of course Obama will be scrutinized for his association with Ayers. I hope that is clear enough.

There's two problems I see with your argument there, though --

1. Why ARE you excluding Clinton and Arafat?

2. Obama didn't start his campaign for president until late 2007 at the earliest. The year he met Ayers was 1999. So -- unless you're claiming that Obama was CLAIRVOYANT (which is more than even the people who ADMIRE him say), I don't see how you can say that "if you are running for president you should keep your distance" because...he wasn't running for president yet.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:45 PM on October 30, 2008


There's no precedent for any Presidential candidate hanging out with known terrorists

Does the name G. Gordon Liddy mean anything to you? A felon and a proponent of shooting federal officers.

I can bet you money that McCain has hung out with more killers than Obama. Not to mention that I'm sure he's killed plenty of children himself from his little bomber plane in Vietnam, the big ol' American Hero that he is.

All you righties are the same: too busy spewing the hate to look in the mirror and realize you're a rank hypocrite.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:37 AM on November 4, 2008




If you're stating that McCain's failure to denounce someone's opinion of an abortion rights nutcase (in 1993), and decision not to vote for legislation making bombing illegal (isn't it already illegal?) is the equivalent of working with known terrorists. Man you have a vivid imagination.
posted by Gungho at 6:51 AM on November 4, 2008


If you're stating that McCain's failure to denounce someone's opinion of an abortion rights nutcase (in 1993), and decision not to vote for legislation making bombing illegal (isn't it already illegal?) is the equivalent of working with known terrorists. Man you have a vivid imagination.

...You mean, like thinking Obama should have predicted what he was going to be doing eight years in the future? That kind of vivid imagination?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:13 AM on November 4, 2008


Not exactly, but close...You see when it became apparent that Ayers was going to be a flashpoint Obama could have taken the route of 'yes he was bad, before I knew him, and maybe it would be a good thing to disavow myself from him and his organization'. Just like he did to his Minister.

And beside from the aforementioned nutcases has abortion been anything near to an issue this election year?
posted by Gungho at 11:11 AM on November 4, 2008


You see when it became apparent that Ayers was going to be a flashpoint Obama could have taken the route of 'yes he was bad, before I knew him, and maybe it would be a good thing to disavow myself from him and his organization'.

....He DID say that. What else did you think "he was doing bad things when I was only eight years old" MEANT?

And it wasn't "his" organization. He EXPLAINED that during the debate. Some other guy ran the organization, and Ayers and Obama both coincidentally happened to join it.

So, what is this about, Obama didn't use the specific WORDS you wanted him to use? Because he ALREADY said "he was bad before I knew him." In public. During a debate. I saw him do it. Really.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:20 PM on November 4, 2008


But he never left his side...Sorry if you have to read between my lines in order to understand my gist.

It's like going out to this great bar you heard of only to find out it is a biker bar of ill repute. So do you stay, or do you leave? Good judgment says you leave.
posted by Gungho at 12:28 PM on November 4, 2008


Sorry if you have to read between my lines in order to understand my gist.

It strikes me that if "your gist" is only visible by "reading between the lines," then it is perhaps because it is something you are reading into the situation rather than something that is actually true of the situation. I find that's usually the case when people tell me I need to "read between the lines."

It's like going out to this great bar you heard of only to find out it is a biker bar of ill repute. So do you stay, or do you leave? Good judgment says you leave.

...What if the great bar is perfectly okay, but one of the regulars used to hang out at the biker bar until he grew out of it? What then?

And who says leaving the biker bar is "good judgement"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:39 PM on November 4, 2008


..What if the great bar is perfectly okay, but one of the regulars used to hang out at the biker bar until he grew out of it? What then?

I don't think I would be buying him a drink.
posted by Gungho at 12:53 PM on November 4, 2008


>What if the great bar is perfectly okay, but one of the regulars used to hang out at the biker bar until he grew out of it? What then?

I don't think I would be buying him a drink.


From the sound of that, sounds like you'd stay at that bar, though, right?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:00 PM on November 4, 2008


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