Comments on: BNP members 'outed'

BNP members 'outed'

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:31:50 -0800

British media goes mental when someone leaks a list of British National Party online. The list is here as news outlets are wary of quoting directly. Given that membership of the BNP is forbidden for those in the Police force amongst other organisations, it's interesting reading. Their leader is interviewed on this morning's Five Live breakfast (about 2hrs in) on the matter, pointing out that as a party standing for election they are as legitimate as any other.

By: flashboy

flashboy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:40:22 -0800

Google Maps version of the list (no personal details, just rough locations.)

By: Beautiful Screaming Lady

Beautiful Screaming Lady — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:43:49 -0800

Huge relief to see that my parents weren't on there. Huge relief to see that I'm not on there, either, come to think of it. Funny/sad/pathetic to see how many people's hobbies consist of 'war games', 'WW2', 'military memorabilia'. A fascinating insight into the tawdry, banal lives of little angry people. Other 'highlights': Mr. P____. Will not be renewing (emigrating to Portugal) Oh, the irony. Mr. R_____. Hobbies: oil painting (willing to paint pictures for raffles, etc) Miss W____. Hobbies: knitting, helping people in need Unless they're brown, eh, Miss W? Mr. S____. member describes himself as a witch: potential embarrassment if active Mr. U____. Will not be renewing (objects to being told he shouldn't wear a bomber jacket)

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:45:49 -0800

I did wonder if I should add this as an FPP. This is the original source, I believe. I am split on how I feel about this. I do not agree with the BNP in the slightest, but disallowing people jobs based on party political affiliation is really fundamentally unacceptable. The BNP has a history of being sufficiently incompetent that they have never really politically succeeded anyhow, and one of their circular firing squad has now just ensured that many of their members will never trust them again. I'm not sure that much more needs to be done then to note that these people are risk factors. And I feel deeply for anyone who got added as an act of spite by the leaker.

By: chuckdarwin

chuckdarwin — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:46:00 -0800

Several of these stupid fucks live near me. I don't imagine they'll be too happy about their addresses being released when they're scraping dried eggs off their stonework. Not that I'll be lobbing any, but SOMEONE will. Guaranteed.

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:53:56 -0800

Given that membership of the BNP is forbidden for those in the Police force amongst other organisations I do not agree with the BNP in the slightest, but disallowing people jobs based on party political affiliation is really fundamentally unacceptable. Wait, what? Are members of all political parties restricted from taking certain jobs, or is it just this one?

By: mippy

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:54:36 -0800

There is someone described as 'Activist: makes kites with BNP logos'. It sounds almost sweet. Quite a few live in my home town, none of which I know, though. An old schoolfriend was going to stand for them in a local election until 'I realised how racist they were'. I asked him what attracted him to them and he said 'I was worried about the immigrants and taxes'. At the time he was working cash-in-hand as a roofer. jaduncan, I mostly agree with you but I can see why the police, for one, would like not to have people with far-right affliations serving as officers. Especially in inner cities.

By: mippy

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:57:50 -0800

kidichorus - I believe just this one. They have had links with the National Front in the past (I'm not googling them at work). Nobody ever seems to mention their equally reprehensible views on women and 'gays', though I suppose the race aspect is inflammatory enough for the media.

By: atrazine

atrazine — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:58:40 -0800

Wait, what? Are members of all political parties restricted from taking certain jobs, or is it just this one? Just this one.

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:06:04 -0800

Yes mippy. It's a hard issue for me also. I'm not sure that there is anything but a least-worst solution between having actively racist officers and banning certain political parties from careers. I would feel a lot more comfortable with saying that they are unofficially withdrawn to desk jobs and heavily monitored. And again, remember that any given person may have been added as a matter of spite. If the leaker had been beaten up by a certain policeman, or just felt that [s]he was too effective and needed to be off the force...

By: Hartster

Hartster — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:09:57 -0800

disallowing people jobs based on party political affiliation is really fundamentally unacceptable Sorta. But if you're doing a publically funded job (teacher, judge, policeman etc) and you're a member of an organisation that both implicitly and explicitly discriminates against large sections of the public, and that has been strongly associated with violence against those sections, it's probably more unacceptable for those people to hold on to those jobs.

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:12:01 -0800

Also the heat map is almost completely pointless - as it does not appear to be normalised to per capita it is merely a map of urban areas.

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:12:57 -0800

But if you're doing a publically funded job (teacher, judge, policeman etc) and you're a member of an organisation that both implicitly and explicitly discriminates against large sections of the public, and that has been strongly associated with violence against those sections, it's probably more unacceptable for those people to hold on to those jobs. So Christians and Muslims are right out.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:13:07 -0800

This is the original source, I believe Lancaster Unity clearly state that they don't have a copy of the list, and refuse to even link to it, so them being the source seems unlikely. Lots of people online are pointing to former treasurer John Walker as the leaker. My fave notes on members: A man from Gillingham: Will not be renewing 07 (objects to being told he shouldn't wear a bomber jacket) A man from Glastonbury: member describes himself as a witch: potential embarrassment if active A man from Pinner: Former policeman. Lecturer in human rights/data protection. That last one is just a perfect trifecta of fail!

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:13:33 -0800

Hartster: What do you do when the demand is that Communists should also not be involved due to a expressed willingness to use violent revolution against property owners?

By: TheophileEscargot

TheophileEscargot — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:19:41 -0800

I quite like the irony here, Times:

The BNP said in a statement on its website that it had lodged a complaint with Dyfed-Powys Police on the grounds that the "disgraceful act of treachery" breached human rights and data protection law. Mr Griffin admitted that the Human Rights Act was one of the BNP's pet hates, but denied that using it to enforce the privacy of its members was hypocrisy. "No, we are not in favour of the Human Rights Act, it is a European piece of legislation, but as it is there we will happily use it if we can," he said.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:19:57 -0800

Oops, sorry, I skimmed - seems Beautiful Screaming Lady have similar taste in amusing fascist pecadilloes!

By: anagrama

anagrama — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:20:41 -0800

Depressing to see that there's a family of 5 members a couple of streets away from me (or at least there was in Dec '07, when the list supposedly dates from). Also noticed that an ex-squaddie I briefly lived in a group house with is on the list (and is an activist too). Not exactly surprising, sadly. Though I guess it's just as well for him that he was turned down by the police when he applied...

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:21:15 -0800

No, the source of the story that got picked up by the media. On a different note, it's somewhat amusingly ironic to see so many BNP members complaining they may lose their job due to unfair discrimination.

By: pracowity

pracowity — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:24:42 -0800

Wait, what? Are members of all political parties restricted from taking certain jobs, or is it just this one? That one, because the BNP is like the KKK without the sheets and wizards. How in hell can you be a police officer, supposedly evenhanded in your community dealings, and yet be a member of an organization whose primary goals include ridding your country of non-whites? The BNP constitution states [Wikipedia] that it is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948."

By: biffa

biffa — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:25:01 -0800

All the ones who live in my town are in the poorer areas, read in to that as you will. Far more interesting, I looked through my parents home town and there was someone I was at school with! He was a sleazy little shit then, fascinating to see how he's grown up.

By: Jofus

Jofus — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:30:21 -0800

We confront fascism in the same way we confront every threat to our freedom and our way of life: We point and laugh at it. Also, an interesting article on the legallity of all of even linking to this list is here.

By: mippy

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:47:36 -0800

If you are comparing having Christian and Islamic beliefs to being a paid-up member of the BNP, then...well, I'll prefer to describe it as 'playing agent provocateur' rather than calling you insane :)

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:57:40 -0800

How in hell can you be a police officer, supposedly evenhanded in your community dealings, and yet be a member of an organization whose primary goals include ridding your country of non-whites? Unless membership in the National-whatever Party is a necessary and sufficient condition for racism, there are most certainly very racist police (of all colors and backgrounds) already in your employ, as well as police subject to religionist and sexist belief systems. You're arguing that the danger posed by allowing your government to practice open discrimination against members of a hated political party is less than the danger of increasing the number of racist police by some undetermined (but small) percentage.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:59:12 -0800

Free air-time for the BNP where they get to play the victim and helps with their project to normalise themselves in the mainstream ("look, we're the same sort of everyday people like you" as per their campaign). Best hope is that factional in-fighting due to acrimony over the leak rips them apart.

By: dunkadunc

dunkadunc — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:01:22 -0800

Didn't people laugh at Hitler at first, too? I thought they compared him to Charlie Chaplin.

By: pracowity

pracowity — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:02:56 -0800

I'm arguing that someone who declares himself (by joining the BNP) to be against blacks should not be on a police force.

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:03:50 -0800

Mr. U____. Will not be renewing (objects to being told he shouldn't wear a bomber jacket) Bwaahahahaa

By: Hartster

Hartster — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:06:00 -0800

So Christians and Muslims are right out. Trickier, but yes, if their views come into conflict with their public job they have to stand down, such as the family court magistrate who had to stand down as his Christianity came into conflict with his ability to adjudicate fairly on gay adoption.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:09:59 -0800

You don't have to argue it, pracowity:

Peter Fahy, chief constable of Greater Manchester Police and spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers, said: "Membership or promotion of the BNP by any member of the police service, whether police officer or police staff, is prohibited. "This is because such membership would be incompatible with our duty to promote equality under the Race Relations Amendment Act and would damage the confidence of minority communities."

By: octothorpe

octothorpe — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:11:27 -0800

Wow, that rule sounds so McCarthy-istic, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the BNP?"

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:12:41 -0800

I'm arguing that someone who declares himself (by joining the BNP) to be against blacks should not be on a police force. Logically, then, what you want is a law which disqualifies anyone on record espousing a racist viewpoint from holding certain jobs.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:13:04 -0800

Only for completely facile understandings of McCarthyism and modern policing.

By: Hartster

Hartster — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:15:46 -0800

Unless membership in the National-whatever Party is a necessary and sufficient condition for racism, there are most certainly very racist police (of all colors and backgrounds) already in your employ, as well as police subject to religionist and sexist belief systems. You're arguing that the danger posed by allowing your government to practice open discrimination against members of a hated political party is less than the danger of increasing the number of racist police by some undetermined (but small) percentage. You cannot be a racist in the police. Sure some are, and once they are found to be racist then they lose their job or suffer some form of sanction or awareness training depending on what it is exactly they have done. Being a member of a racist organisation is just an easy way of determining if they are racist. Hartster: What do you do when the demand is that Communists should also not be involved due to a expressed willingness to use violent revolution against property owners? Hypotheticals. OK, I'll play. If they are a member of an organisation (Communist or otherwise) that says that property owners should be violently attacked, then yeah, I think it'd be hard to see how on earth they could be police officers. If they are a member of a Communist organisation that The Man says advocates violent revolution against property owners, but it actually doesn't, then I would say in the strongest terms (possibly by an pseudonymous post on an internet message board) that is an Unfair Thing.

By: mippy

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:15:48 -0800

Unless membership in the National-whatever Party I see you know a lot about this topic and clearly in no way is using it as a peculiar argument for atheism. The police were once called to my house. Given the BNP's stance on mental health, I would really prefer the person who knocked on my door to check I was OK and take me to hospital to be unaffliated with such an organisation. Meanwhile, members comment on the leaks.

By: mippy

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:18:46 -0800

Kid Ichorus, you might want to google the Stephen Lawrence case for a better understanding of why the police feel this way. I can't remember what the related inquiry was. Hartster is correct - some organisations will expel racist members very quickly.

By: kev23f

kev23f — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:19:26 -0800

Some daft stuff recorded for many members.... Activist. Name change by Deed Poll to Placidly. Activist. approved driving instructor - hobbies: medeval longbow, website manager. Activist. Gold badge not received: replacement sent.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:20:37 -0800

There was one bloke with two suits of armour as well...the Last Crusader!

By: elgilito

elgilito — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:29:18 -0800

Some bizarre hobby from the list : "Guardian plant ('undercover' report written for the Guardian 20/12/06)"

By: kev23f

kev23f — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:30:33 -0800

What about this guy: Activist. L______: Discretion required re. employment concerns, Police officer. And i liked this one: Will not be renewing 07 ("too late to achieve anything")

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:38:19 -0800

How in hell can you be a police officer, supposedly evenhanded in your community dealings, and yet be a member of an organization whose primary goals include ridding your country of non-whites? Given how many of those small town sherriffs actually *were* the Grand Wizard of their local KKK, I can see why some Americans might think this to be an acceptable practice. But Nick Griffin would make a terrible Boss Hogg.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:38:43 -0800

Oh, liberals. Ever more interested in the rights of fascists than in actually doing anything effectual to oppose them. 'Course, when you're white and not a radical leftist, it's pretty easy to downplay the importance of an organization whose members spend a fair amount of time beating up nonwhites and radical leftists.

By: gimonca

gimonca — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:42:02 -0800

Look at the bright side: maybe someone like Morrissey will write a mocking, ironic song about you.

By: notreally

notreally — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:43:39 -0800

Any statements from the BNP regarding the president elect of the U.S?

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:43:43 -0800

"First they came for the fascists..." err, hang on...

By: Phanx

Phanx — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:48:32 -0800

I had assumed that most BNP members were people who felt despised and neglected by the mainstream political parties (an understandable feeling in say, some bits of the East End) and had made a poor choice of vehicle for their protest. This paints a rather weirder picture than that. Actually, incomprehensible in parts. Last week I had a drink with my ex-wife, who told me that the gay, right-on perpetual student she used to share a flat with, who more or less openly despised me as a hopelessly backward bourgeois fart, had joined the BNP. Now I see he's an activist. WTF indeed.

By: octothorpe

octothorpe — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:49:35 -0800

Oh, liberals. Ever more interested in the rights of fascists than in actually doing anything effectual to oppose them. Liberals, in the form of the ACLU, have spent a lot of effort defending the rights of people like the American Nazi Party and the KKK. And I as a liberal send them money every year because of that. There's no way to draw a line, if you start denying rights to one group, then you can deny them to anyone.

By: tomcooke

tomcooke — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:54:33 -0800

Activist. approved driving instructor En-Ra-Ha!

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:57:22 -0800

There's loads of driving instructors. Start off as a little Hitler and work your way up, it seems.

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:59:56 -0800

Oh, liberals. Ever more interested in the rights of fascists than in actually doing anything effectual to oppose them. Actually my concern for their rights is exactly what I do to oppose them. Think of it more as a conflict about how much natural justice and the rule of law are important in a society. Because being concerned about people's right to assemble and protest politically is precisely what enables people to defeat the growth of totalitarianism. I guess I just believe that most people are rational and fundamentally good, and so idiotic nationalism is not too difficult to defeat in an open market of ideas. And just out of interest, what do you think is more important in defeating fascists than working for open debate and an inclusive society?

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:01:16 -0800

There's no way to draw a line, if you start denying rights to one group, then you can deny them to anyone. Well, the place I'd draw the line (carefully) is when you're dealing with membership in an a well-defined criminal conspiracy, a mafia. I believe this is actually the legal coloring by which some countries forbid the Church of Scientology from operating within their borders.

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:04:08 -0800

That is, Scientology as a belief system isn't forbidden, but rather the Church of Scientology.

By: afx237vi

afx237vi — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:04:50 -0800

It's quite funny to hear members of the BNP moaning about personal privacy and human rights when the BNP is closely linked to Redwatch, a website for posting photographs and personal details of left-wing activists.

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:05:24 -0800

"Activist. Ex-Conservative and then Lib-Dem councillor, ex-chairman of local Green Party and UKIP member Minister of Religion. Cert. Ed. Hobbies: steam railways" what

By: Hartster

Hartster — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:09:07 -0800

"Activist. Ex-Conservative and then Lib-Dem councillor, ex-chairman of local Green Party and UKIP member Minister of Religion. Cert. Ed. Hobbies: steam railways" what I'm guessing he must just really like membership cards. Maybe he's hoping for a free set of shot glasses when he finally adds the Labour Party to his collection.

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:24:22 -0800

My favorite so far... Window cleaner. Former pig farmer. Pagan prison chaplain. Hobbies: growing mistletoe, rune making (wood) Ooops Would like to help but limited due to ill health/family circumstances. Request for absolute confidentiality Photographer (professional). Specialist in pre Raphaelite style portraiture. BA (Hons) Arts and Literature. Photo/Media/Journalism Diploma. Institute of Legal Executives (paralegal). Freelance writer: , environment, nature. PA experience

By: smackfu

smackfu — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:29:56 -0800

One bit of confusion here: if the list is secret, how could they use it to cull the police force anyways?

By: Optimus Chyme

Optimus Chyme — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:36:00 -0800

What a fine, handsome, fit example of an Aryan superman.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:36:11 -0800

that the gay, right-on perpetual student she used to share a flat with, who more or less openly despised me as a hopelessly backward bourgeois fart, had joined the BNP Hmm. I wonder if he's been leaving comments on this guy's blog?

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:40:46 -0800

You have a point smackfu; I was indulging in a bit of schadenfreude reading Lee Barnes' (BNP officer) blog and he's advising concerned members to deny everything, write to the BNP outlining their situation and the party will back up their claim never to have been a member, saying that the list is a faked-up mix of real member's names and false additions. Not sure how it would stand up as proof at an employment tribunal if someone stuck by their denial.

By: jonp72

jonp72 — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:42:29 -0800

By: Hermione Dies

Hermione Dies — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:43:46 -0800

I'm kinda torn on the issue too... I don't want to deny people rights based on their political affiliation, but you can't claim legitimacy and protection for your actions just by deciding that you're a political party. Like, maybe the National Murder Party aren't going to do too well.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:45:17 -0800

Also, I'd be much more likely to care if the British fascists hadn't maintained Redwatch (no link will be given here, google it if you like) for the past several years, a website that serves as an open hit list of BNP enemies. People have been severely injured and even murdered after appearing on Redwatch; its purpose is the intimidation by implicit threat of physical violence of those the BNP regards as having threatened or offended the Party in some way. Fascists thrive in times of economic hardship, which wear away at communities and drive wedges between our better natures and the lives we actually lead. This would not even be a problem if it were not for the fact that fascist organizations are inherently violent organizations; for all that the BNP works to keep it quiet, they still mingle with organizations like Combat 18. Allowing the BNP to organize is a no-brainer for privileged American liberals; they do not stand to be beaten or killed as a result of the British fascist resurgence.

By: creeky

creeky — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:46:27 -0800

My old next door neighbour is on that list. Weird. He was a bit of a recluse, and he never used to clean up after his Alsatian who was always tied up in the back yard. It makes me sad to see that his political views stink worse than his dog.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:54:21 -0800

Can some Brits explain why this is a bigger deal in Britain? We don't have such a thing as voter registration in the UK, jonp72. How you vote is a matter for you and your conscience. If you don't want to tell anyone, you don't have to. Mostly, nobody actually cares. This isn't just voting though. The people on this list are party members, and as such, actively working towards the implementation of a vile racialist/fascist agenda.

By: hoverboards don't work on water

hoverboards don't work on water — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:04:08 -0800

By: zamboni

zamboni — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:04:55 -0800

Can some Brits explain why this is a bigger deal in Britain? In the United States, you can get voter registration information on anybody, including what party they belong to, unless they belong to a group that's specifically exempted from making their voter registration info public (e.g., police officers, people who have filed a valid restraining order). I'm not from the UK, but I can field this one. Party affiliation is an active thing. If you're a member of a political party, you've actually fronted up, paid money for a membership card, attended branch meetings, etc. It's not just putting yourself down to vote in primary a or b, it's signing up to agitate for the political goals of the party. I remember being horrified that US judges had open party affilliations. (This is because they're often directly elected, fellow foreigners. What's up with that?)

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:08:43 -0800

Publishing a list of BNP members with the implication that members should be punished for their political position, is exactly what the BNP themselves do on Redwatch. Some might say it thus serves them right, but it's actually just stooping to their level. You really don't see a difference between this and Redwatch? How many fascists do you think will be jumped in the streets or have their homes torched because of this list? Where on the list do you see exhortations to violence? If you can't see the difference between a BNP member losing his job because it's illegal for BNP members to hold his job and a leftist being assaulted or killed for being a leftist, I'm not sure what to say to you.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:10:59 -0800

By: elfgirl

elfgirl — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:15:35 -0800

So, V for Vendetta was pretty spot on about ~~Norsefire~~ the NF/BNP, then? That's kind of...depressing, actually.

By: jb

jb — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:41:04 -0800

Yep, being a member of a party is a much bigger deal in Commonwealth countries.* You don't get asked if you want to sign up when you register to vote, you have to seek out the party and send them money and a form and stuff. I only know a couple of people in Canada who have been members of political parties, and those were the Liberals and the NDP (not exactly something you need to keep secret). So anyone who does join a party either does so to campaign for a specific candidate, or because they really want to do stuff with the party. *I've voted in Britain and Canada, and the two systems are very similar.

By: regicide is good for you

regicide is good for you — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:41:25 -0800

Wow, that rule sounds so McCarthy-istic, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the BNP?" It's this sort of people who supported McCarthy.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:41:34 -0800

Publishing a list of BNP members with the implication that members should be punished for their political position, is exactly what the BNP themselves do on Redwatch. You're a black parent and you send your children to the state school. Your child, whom you know to be of average intelligence and who has performed well in the past, all of a sudden, starts performing poorly, for no apparent reason. On reading a list published by other party members, you discover that your child is being taught by a teacher who not only believes that white children are inherently superior, that black children have inherently lower IQ's and as such, aren't capable of doing anything other than performing the most lowly, menial tasks. Furthermore, they believe that their very existance in the classroom actively hurts that of white students, and so they use every available opportunity to exclude them for minor infractions. As a consequence, your child is discriminated against in a million small, subtle ways every day, none of which can actually be sanctioned because they're subtle but systematic acts of omission and exclusion. Are you *really* saying this teacher shouldn't lose their job due to their political beliefs? Not that I believe they will, more's the pity, but I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it if they did.

By: saturnine

saturnine — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:42:50 -0800

Information distribution is the only thing that can kill the BNP. This is a good start. The BNP survives on their members and voters being isolated, scared and misinformed. I will take any opportunity to counteract a political party's lies, especially when they are racist, pro-segregation, prey-upon-the-weak National Front affiliated scumfucks.

By: minifigs

minifigs — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:42:53 -0800

The police can't ask about political preferences in interviews as far as I know but officers are discouraged from joining the BNP.

By: bonaldi

bonaldi — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:47:37 -0800

A fascinating insight into the tawdry, banal lives of little angry people. Newsflash: You needn't be little or angry for a tawdry or banal live. Nor even a facist. Can some Brits explain why this is a bigger deal in Britain? What Zamboni said, and also our votes are ostensibly secret. The worrying thing about this, like all witchhunts, is the possibility for mistaken identity. There's a guy on the list who has the same, unusual, name as someone I work with, and lives in the same area. It's not him, but that's gotta be a bugger.

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:58:23 -0800

My boss is on redwatch but I don't seem to be, wtf! and I am not on the SHIT List either! I must be doing it wrong.

By: motty

motty — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:59:48 -0800

I don't think they are devious enough to have done it deliberately but I am worried that this leak of the membership list may prove to be a good thing for the BNP in the end, as it will seriously galvanise their membership. Houses will get egged, funny phone calls will be received, threats will be made etc but this will only serve to strengthen the resolve of people on the list to support and work for their party. If a policeman or teacher or two happen to lose their jobs over the list that just means more activists with time on their hands to do party work. None of this will really damage the BNP at all and in a general climate of economic hardship - which is usually historically good for far-right parties - it won't hurt them to have a fired-up core membership. That's bad news for the rest of us.

By: i_cola

i_cola — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:03:18 -0800

There's a guy on the list who has the same, unusual, name as someone I work with, and lives in the same area. It's not him, but that's gotta be a bugger. A friend of mine shares the same name as the leader of the BNP. Ironically he's a card-carrying Labour member and an avowed socialist. Thankfully he can see the funny side. (Of both the name and being a socialist in the Labour party.)

By: saturnine

saturnine — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:06:35 -0800

motty > "Houses will get egged, funny phone calls will be received, threats will be made etc" By who, may I ask? Forgive me, but that's the behaviour I usually associate with BNP/National Front thugs, not anti-racist people. I'm not familiar with the Anti-Nazi league, have they ever targeted people's homes? Everyone I know is checking the list to see exactly how many neighbours are supporters and making a mental note. No more. "If a policeman or teacher or two happen to lose their jobs over the list that just means more activists with time on their hands to do party work." For the people who caused them to lose their jobs, possibly miss payments on their mortgages and lose their homes? Make their kids go hungry? Ruin their careers? In this economic climate? I think you're missing the blazing anger coming from their direction. If this happens and they don't turn against the BNP leaders, they're a lost cause anyway.

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:08:58 -0800

The worrying thing about this, like all witchhunts, is the possibility for mistaken identity. There's a guy on the list who has the same, unusual, name as someone I work with There's someone with the same name as myself - luckily they live in the other side of the country. Though to be fair it's that rare a name.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:10:21 -0800

I think those are fair points, motty. I'm wondering how it will play out internally though, as my understanding was Griffin was going for the "ordinary people" shift to mainstream and those might be the members to abandon ship after this, perhaps leaving a hardcore of committed racists who'll take the party back into the fringes. But I certainly don't think we can or should rely on moral shaming (as much as the view implicit in BNP membership are shameful). They could perhaps make a breakthrough to something on a par with their mainland European counterparts and even non-diehards will no longer feel ashamed to be known as a member. The issues and constituency they address have to be contested with some better politics.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:13:49 -0800

What does "proof of entitlement" mean?

By: hoverboards don't work on water

hoverboards don't work on water — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:15:36 -0800

Are you *really* saying this teacher shouldn't lose their job due to their political beliefs? No, not at all. Are you responding to a different post? My point is that whatever the reason for the original leak, it's now on a thousand and one blogs along with suggestions of mischief. Just because the Redwatch analogue is far worse, perhaps calling for beatings and killings rather than eggings and spammings, doesn't make this action right. You can't say "oh, [minor crime] is justifiable because at least I'm not Hitler". We're supposed to be the good guys and take the moral high ground rather than letting our opponents drag us down to using their tactics.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:16:15 -0800

Proof they're entitled to a reduced membership rate as a student, pensioner or ~~practising witch~~ similar.

By: vbfg

vbfg — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:16:50 -0800

Activist. Membership suspended 20.9.05 (inappropriate tattoo). Suspension lifted 27.09.05 Listen mate, I've told you before, you can't come in here with a black cock etched into your arm.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:17:29 -0800

TBH hoverboards, if this list had got into the hands on militant anti-fascists, they'd have kept it to themselves and made far better use of it.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:17:38 -0800

Thanks, Abiezer.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:22:16 -0800

You can't say "oh, [minor crime] is justifiable because at least I'm not Hitler". We're supposed to be the good guys and take the moral high ground rather than letting our opponents drag us down to using their tactics. I have this mental image of 1940's liberals insisting that declaring war on Germany would be stooping to their level.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:28:01 -0800

[please don't copy/paste people's personal info into this thread, thank you]

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:31:59 -0800

Are you responding to a different post? I'm responding to your suggestion that people activists of a certain political strain shouldn't be held accountable for those views. I'm struggling to see how you think liberals are somehow responsible for leaking/distributing the list, but once it's out there, I don't have any qualms whatsoever about using it to vet the people who police my neighbourhood or teach my children.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:00:22 -0800

Perhaps to help those unfamiliar with the party get an idea, the BNP membership runs the gamut from people like Tony "Mad Bomber" Lecomber to confused souls like Maureen Stowe; The more typical member in the past resembled Lecomber and this is still the "quality" of the core cadre; Stowe (now an ex-member) is an example of the type of people they've been successfully appealing to recently. The latter type of person can be reached through politics; Lecomber and his ilk can't.

By: mippy

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:00:54 -0800

for one of them, it says 'No 'promotional material' requested. Concerned about his job'. I googled the name and he;s a media lecturer for a London university. Gosh...

By: Deep Dish

Deep Dish — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:02:09 -0800

Listen mate, I've told you before, you can't come in here with a black cock etched into your arm. Turns out, he's just a Tottenham Hotspur fan

By: mippy

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:09:10 -0800

From Abiezer#s link: "She told BBC News Online: "At the time, they said they could change things in the town, everyone had got upset with Labour. "They were going to deal with anti-social behaviour and that sort of thing." This is how they win votes in the North of England - visit poor areas where undereducated folk tend to live, or rougher areas, or people living in towns where traditional manufacturing jobs have gone into decline, and tell them that they want to bring back capital punishment, or that things are changing for the worse because there are too many people and too few jobs. The fact that immigrant communities have always been very self-motivated and driven to own small businesses/create opportunity gets overlooked in pursuit of an easy answer to a complex social problem. Where I grew up there were 'white areas' and 'Asian areas'. A big Asian population, but the two didn't mix at all, and so Asian people, mainly Muslims, remained 'foreign'.

By: i_cola

i_cola — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:19:03 -0800

mippy: Are you sure they are one & the same?

By: Infinite Jest

Infinite Jest — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:23:29 -0800

Turns out, he's just a Tottenham Hotspur fan They let him back in when they realised, they figured he's suffered enough.

By: The Ultimate Olympian

The Ultimate Olympian — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:25:03 -0800

They are "committed to... restoring... the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population" So, more than 92% of the population isn't overwhelming enough? Ethnic Groups: white (of which English 83.6%, Scottish 8.6%, Welsh 4.9%, Northern Irish 2.9%) 92.1%, black 2%, Indian 1.8%, Pakistani 1.3%, mixed 1.2%, other 1.6% (2001 census)

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:25:33 -0800

Though you have to say, mippy, that the prevalence of teachers, business owners and the like on the list puts the lie to the notion that they're only appealing to the proles. fascism was classically the politics of the petit bourgeois.

By: happyroach

happyroach — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:31:44 -0800

Funny/sad/pathetic to see how many people's hobbies consist of 'war games', 'WW2', 'military memorabilia'. Probable Translation: spending lots of time trying to come up with scenarios that justify Hitler winning the war, usually starting with England staying out of it. They are also likely similar to the people who used to post on soc.history.what-if arguing that Operation Sealion really truly could have succeeded without the intervention of Alien Space Bats.

By: i_cola

i_cola — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:39:53 -0800

I wonder how many Daily Mail journalists &/or shareholders are on this list?

By: stinkycheese

stinkycheese — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:40:16 -0800

Probable Translation: spending lots of time trying to come up with scenarios that justify Hitler winning the war, usually starting with England staying out of it. It's a little confusing perhaps, but I rather think you'd find an awful lot of BNP membership would actually regard WWII as a happy or at least a proud memory, the last time all the (white) Britons pulled together as one and kept the Isles free from invasion. The fact that the invader is now considerably more sympathetic to such people does little to change how they regard their own role of successful defender.

By: mippy

mippy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:09:05 -0800

Abiezer, the list only has paid-up members on it and not voters. I've never met any out and proud BNP voters elsewhere so couldn't speak for them. And the area I'm talking about is somewhat more disadvantaged than the word proletariat allows. (In fact, once you know what proletariat means, it's pretty unlikely you still belong to it.) I don't like the word 'underclass', but they're very clever at knowing how to hook in disenfranchised people.

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:31:48 -0800

Member of the BNP being interviewed on the BBC news this evening complaining about 'living in a fascist state'... but I thought that is what they wanted? Funny/sad/pathetic to see how many people's hobbies consist of 'war games', 'WW2', 'military memorabilia'. Probable Translation: spending lots of time trying to come up with scenarios that justify Hitler winning the war, usually starting with England staying out of it. There was a documentary recently about how a significant section of people who go to military enactment weekend/festivals like dressing as SS troopers.

By: tapeguy

tapeguy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:46:53 -0800

Was amused last night by this prank call on Youtube, then saw the following quote in The Times: But Richard, a Blackpool hotelier, said: "We did have some strange phone calls last night but if you are a member of any party you should not be ashamed of it." Two laughs for the price of one.

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:01:14 -0800

Right... "I have this mental image of 1940's liberals insisting that declaring war on Germany would be stooping to their level." I have quite a strong mental image of Godwin when people compare a membership list of 6000 out of 60,000,000 (that's 0.0001% of the population) to the threat from Nazi Germany. "Allowing the BNP to organize is a no-brainer for privileged American liberals; they do not stand to be beaten or killed as a result of the British fascist resurgence." I'm not American, I'm British. And I would rather put up the petty crime of 6000 nutters than suffer a War on 'Fascism' (and do you actually mean the combination of corporate and state power here rather than merely authoritarianism?). I think that if you think terrorism is overhyped it is ludicrously hypocritical to handwave so much over a group with such a track record of infighting idiocy. No BNP candidate has ever won a seat as a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons. Their nationwide vote at the last election was 0.7%. I am not sure why you think this isn't a fight we are winning just fine. And just to be clear - I am glad the party exists. I am glad that that 0.7% of the vote is given the choice to vote for them. I value my civil society more than I value my right to be protected from all of the problems that freedom can create. If people are violent we can prosecute them for that violence using the rule of law and the tools that that gives us. I choose my freedom and the ability to politically fight for whatever I want, and I'm not at all in agreement that this represents the weak position. Is that clearer?

By: rokusan

rokusan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:04:50 -0800

My experience with police officers in the US suggests that they're among the least racially-tolerant groups in society. One could argue cause/effect, of course. Maybe the job produces hatred of minorities, or maybe people who hate minorities are attracted to a job wherein they get to beat them up.

By: i_cola

i_cola — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:05:35 -0800

Another confused ex-member. (Are people really this stupid? Actually, I know the answer to that one...) Irony Dept: One member giving a glowing testimony of the services provided on an Indian web services company website. Excuse dept: I was only on the mailing list, not a member! Known BNP supporter previously been subject to (property) attack.

By: ClanvidHorse

ClanvidHorse — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:10:54 -0800

email address ______________@waitrose.com Activist. Upgrade from Standard to Gold m/ship 3/4/07 As a pal said, some people are suckers for the premium product every time. I love that. A fucking Waitrose email address and applying for a gold membership!

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:13:43 -0800

"Oh, liberals. Ever more interested in the rights of fascists than in actually doing anything effectual to oppose them. 'Course, when you're white and not a radical leftist, it's pretty easy to downplay the importance of an organization whose members spend a fair amount of time beating up nonwhites and radical leftists." Nice ad-ad hominem...based on race and political views. Just as an example, I was at the Scientology protests in London, at the border of the war in Georgia, and then came home and am planning to be off to the DRC this summer whether the shooting has stopped or not to organise the testimony about sexual violence against women. So I am not really in the mood to take lectures about strawman liberals being ineffectual in my country's politics from someone who is merely shooting from the peanut gallery 2000 miles away. I will then come back and work some more at international human rights law and campaigns with the ICC. But you know, feel free to just dismiss an entire class of people based on an incredibly lazy stereotype. Oh wait, that also reminds me of something. *scratches head reflectively*

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:44:27 -0800

...Oh God, there's only 6000 people in this party? Okay, isn't the fact that you Londoners have government CCTV cameras sniping at you from every rooftop a slightly more concrete example of encroaching fascism than a group of neanderthals who mostly traffic in the words and symbols of a particular kind of fascism? This is much like the American Right's jammering fixation on Islamofascism, restructuring political debate into an exclusive choice between their fascism and ours.

By: Artw

Artw — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:45:04 -0800

"The BNP leader admitted the party was relying on the Human Rights Act, based on EU legislation, which it opposes, to try to protect the privacy of its members. "

By: Artw

Artw — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:46:32 -0800

Funny thing about CCTV... turns out it DOESN'T automatically turn your country into Airstrip 1. Mainly it annoys Top Gear viewers.

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:49:37 -0800

Funny thing about CCTV... turns out it DOESN'T automatically turn your country into Airstrip 1. Mainly it annoys Top Gear viewers. Agreed - you actually became Airstrip1 the moment we started outsourcing our SIGINT and espionage work to you.

By: verstegan

verstegan — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:55:16 -0800

The list of hobbies is fascinating: Hobbies: walking, caravanning, cross-stitch & knitting, helping people in need Hobbies: criminal justice system, bowls Hobbies: fitness, fantail doves, koi carp, gardening Hobbies: classic cars, quantum physics Hobbies: occasional speaker (nationalist views), writing poetry Hobbies: oil painting (willing to paint pictures for raffles etc) Hobbies: gardening, sea fishing, online poker. Member: National Trust. Hobbies: metaphysics, cartoon drawing. Qualifications in reflexology, head massage, Swedish massage, aromatherapy, anatomy and physiology. Window cleaner. Former pig farmer. Pagan prison chaplain. Hobbies: growing mistletoe, rune making (wood). Hobbies: model figure collector (mostly medieval) Many BNP members are clearly drawn from the vast army of Retired People With Too Much Time On Their Hands. The most popular hobbies seem to be model trains, model aircraft, classic motorbikes, and of course that old favourite 'military history'. The membership badge is obviously very important to them; the list is full of people writing to complain that they haven't received their 'gold badge'.

By: Artw

Artw — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:58:54 -0800

Big new-agey crossover as well.

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:59:36 -0800

Agreed - you actually became Airstrip1 the moment we started outsourcing our SIGINT and espionage work to you. Actually, that was snide. I shouldn't blame other governments for the garbage ours foists upon the rest of the world.

By: athenian

athenian — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:06:24 -0800

I think that privacy rights are privacy rights for everyone, so I am sorry that this list has got into the public domain. Police should be banned from BNP membership, in the same way that as a civil servant I had to declare that I had never been part of an organisation whose aims included the overthrow of Parliamentary democracy by violent means. Same reason: you can't work for an organisation when you fundamentally disagree with the purpose of it. The BNP are not as politically significant as some people worry (self-link) but given the party's reputation and small size, being an active member is a strong marker for being a racist. It's not the same as being a Catholic or a Muslim, where the scale and nature of the organisation is such that you don't necessarily have a fanatical devotion to the Pope/Imam. Illustrative of BNP attitude: The BNP spokesman they interviewed on Radio 4 tonight referred to the people we fought WWII against as "the so-called Nazis", which would have made me laugh had the attitude underlying it not been so appalling. (Artw: I know this isn't you, but - Human Rights are not EU legislation, they are the responsibility of the unrelated Council of Europe. That's why the Declaration binds Russia, Switzerland, etc. and bound us even before we joined the EU or passed the Human Rights Act).

By: Artw

Artw — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:08:00 -0800

Well if you're refering to the dodgie dossier its a bit unfair to blame that on SIGINT and espionage, since it was a confection of spin and bollocks, but if you want to throw poop at Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell feel free. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:22:08 -0800

Mainly it annoys Top Gear viewers. And tinfoil hat wearing Americans...

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:23:32 -0800

Artw: I meant ECHELON

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:24:50 -0800

Big new-agey crossover as well. A significant section of the far right has been into the weirder end of paganism from way back

By: Artw

Artw — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:27:07 -0800

Oh. I grew up next to one of those. Bit spooky and weird having yanks cmaped on your doorstep, especially as there was another airbase down the road and it was esentially like living next to a big sign reading "Dear ruskies, nuke here!"

By: quin

quin — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:00:01 -0800

hoverboards don't work on water : Publishing a list of BNP members with the implication that members should be punished for their political position, is exactly what the BNP themselves do on Redwatch. Some might say it thus serves them right, but it's actually just stooping to their level. I mostly agree with you on this, but I do think it serves another interesting purpose; it forces members into a position where they might have to consider why they are angry about being on a list which outs them as being a racist. Are they embarrassed about their bigoted beliefs? Are they afraid that there might be some form of retribution for being associated with this list? And if so, shouldn't they be exploring their feelings on how, if it bothers them, it must feel when they do it to others. Though I may be giving too much credit; most of the card carrying racists that I know don't do the whole introspection thing.

By: Cantdosleepy

Cantdosleepy — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:08:21 -0800

Word, Jaduncan. The unpleasantness of the 'petty crime of 6000 nutters' should not be underestimated, though - it's a real problem and should be dealt with seriously. When I say seriously, though, I mean by dealing with each attack and each offense of a case-by-case basis and prosecuting to the full extent of the law. 'War on Abstract Noun' things are bad for the health of the country in terms of individual freedoms, community cohesion, and all sorts of other terms. I'm sad this whole list thing has come to light, although I do think that a positive upshot of this would be the immediate removal of police and teachers from their jobs if they are on it (following proper checks to make sure it's kosher). The fact is, orat least should be with true democracies, that people have the right to think what they want to think and vote for whomever they want. And in a country without proportional representation, a party that's marginal enough to be powerless but big enough to ensnare people who might otherwise be taking the law into their own hands can be a useful thing.

By: anagrama

anagrama — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:41:49 -0800

There's 12801 names on the list, not 6000.

By: scruss

scruss — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:55:11 -0800

bloody nora, the guy we sold our flat to back in Scotland is allegedly a member.

By: threeturtles

threeturtles — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:48:53 -0800

I had never heard of the BNP before today, being an American with very little knowledge of British politics. I spent a lot of time this morning on wikipedia before finally concluding that British politics are freaking weird. I can't help but picture these guys as Roderick Spode.

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:56:37 -0800

British politics are freaking weird How can you say that?

By: Artw

Artw — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:02:34 -0800

Oh dear.

By: Artw

Artw — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:04:34 -0800

threeturtles - Spode is more like this guy.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:07:54 -0800

The inevitable: LOLGRIFFINS.

By: Artw

Artw — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:12:19 -0800

Is this some kind of anglo-american twat convention or something?

By: dng

dng — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:04:03 -0800

The best rubbish British political party was the Vote For Yourself Party. Brilliantly, at the last election, someone stood as a Vote For Yourself candidate and got just one vote

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:14:14 -0800

The unpleasantness of the 'petty crime of 6000 nutters' should not be underestimated, though - it's a real problem and should be dealt with seriously. I don't know where people keep getting the idea that it's all petty crime from. This guy's crimes were far from being petty. Most of this lot weren't petty either. The various crimes of this BNP offshoot are far from petty.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:25:49 -0800

If they call it petty crime, they can pretend it's inconsequential.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:00:56 -0800

No BNP candidate has ever won a seat as a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons. Their nationwide vote at the last election was 0.7%. I am not sure why you think this isn't a fight we are winning just fine. This is missing the rise in the BNP vote in many areas to a level that may allow them to break through onto the national stage similar to the European right. Look at Stoke for example. You seem blithely unaware of how their emergence has shifted the debate on immigration hard to the right. Just as the emergence of the green movement (with little electoral success) saw the mainstream parties scrambling to steal their clothes, so having the BNP as a bugbear has enabled retrograde anti-immigrant rhetoric and policy. Your assumption that "it's a fight we're winning" puts you in a weak position on rights for people who are genuinely vulnerable like asylum seekers as opposed to poor downtrodden racist coppers.

By: the latin mouse

the latin mouse — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:03:35 -0800

No BNP candidate has ever won a seat as a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons. This ignores the gains they have made and continue to make at a council level. For the people living in these areas the fight is not being won at all. Yet lapses that in other parties would have caused a national furore like the fivers-for-votes debacle get ignored or under-reported because of this perception that the BNP is a loony fringe who are only playing at being politicians and that we can afford to laugh them off. They are a hategroup and they are also elected government officials. At what point do they become a serious threat, if they aren't one already?

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:04:10 -0800

Bit of video helpful in understanding current BNP strategy:

BNP chairman Nick Griffin speaks to an audience of American Nationalists alongside convicted fraudster David Duke of the blatantly Nazi American terrorist group the KKK, who have been responsible for dozens of savage killings and hate crimes in the USA. In his speech Nick Griffin confirms that BNP strategy is to re-package and "sell" BNP ideas to British voters. Nick Griffin confirms that, instead of using traditional far-right slogans about terror, hate, authoritarianism and violence, the new BNP strategy is to use "saleable words" like "freedom, security, identity, democracy" instead, while reassuring his (small) pro-KKK audience that the BNP's secret and real beliefs are still "your ideas too". Nick Griffin admits that the long-term BNP goal of forcibly expelling all non-White Britons from the their homes is, for the time being, best served by "being rather more subtle" - because in the short-term, the BNP being HONEST about their real beliefs would get his party "absolutely nowhere". BNP chairman Nick Griffin dreams of a day when the BNP will "control the British broadcasting media", and when British people will (as a result) have been tricked into electing the BNP. In other words BNP chairman Nick Griffin dreams of a day when HE will control the British media, and when British people will have been tricked into electing HIM.

By: thsmchnekllsfascists

thsmchnekllsfascists — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:26:31 -0800

Get a bat. In all seriousness though, unless you're actually murdered, aren't there going to be extremely harsh penalties for violent crimes?

By: jaduncan

jaduncan — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:36:50 -0800

"If they call it petty crime, they can pretend it's inconsequential." Pope Guilty, why do you assume assume that people who have a different viewpoint to you act in bad faith? I think some of this crime is serious, but I think it is controlable through normal police action and is not something to handwave about an excessive amount.

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 03:19:23 -0800

Ok, the more I read about the NF/BNP, the more I'm convinced that proving criminal conspiracy is not only the just and correct legal mechanism but also the gorgon's head for these sorts of circumstances. If there's sufficient proof that some level of the party leadership is planning and directing crimes, the law should already provide a more direct (and decisive) form of redress than risking a new standard for state discrimination.

By: Pope Guilty

Pope Guilty — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:55:11 -0800

Pope Guilty, why do you assume assume that people who have a different viewpoint to you act in bad faith? I think some of this crime is serious, but I think it is controlable through normal police action and is not something to handwave about an excessive amount. It is precisely because the police refused to act that the violent antifa confrontations of the 80's and 90's became necessary. Cops like fascists a lot better than they like immigrants, blacks, and leftists, and can never be trusted to restrain fascists effectively.

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:44:20 -0800

The best rubbish British political party was the Vote For Yourself Party. Brilliantly, at the last election, someone stood as a Vote For Yourself candidate and got just one vote Expressing some of the gross hypocrisy more usual seen in more conventional parties I see from that report that she didn't actually vote for herself. Myself I miss Lord Buckethead. Though after doing a bit of googling I see it was all to promote some grade Z SF flick. Which tarnishes the memory somewhat...

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:46:43 -0800

... forgot to link to the film (as if anyones going to rush out to watch it)

By: Artw

Artw — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:01:11 -0800

Aparently Tony Martin is on the list.

By: mippy

mippy — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:55:52 -0800

Well, blow me down.

By: vac2003

vac2003 — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:51:45 -0800

I am sure this is completely inappropriate but, this list, coupled with various anonymous email services on teh Tubes, plus a few beers, makes for a fun Friday evening.....

By: flashboy

flashboy — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:00:44 -0800

The inevitable Downfall video.

By: fearfulsymmetry

fearfulsymmetry — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:34:38 -0800

The inevitable Downfall video. I've been waiting for that... "I should have joined UKIP"... oh dear

By: Artw

Artw — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:03:29 -0800

"don't worry, he's not that stupid."

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:00:14 -0800

If there's sufficient proof that some level of the party leadership is planning and directing crimes, the law should already provide a more direct (and decisive) form of redress than risking a new standard for state discrimination. WTF are you talking about? The only place where the BNP is supposedly 'discriminated' against, is in that they're not eligible for employment by either the police or the prison service because by virtue of their membership, they can't meet the criteria for the job. That's no more discrimination than refusing to allow card carrying communists to join the FBI.